It is intended to take Items Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the Order Paper in that order.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I would first like to ask the Leader of the House when he hopes to take the Committee Stage of the Companies (No. 2) Bill; secondly, with regard to Item No. 35 on the Order Paper — an all-party motion dealing with the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union — will he consider giving time to debate this in some special way next week because of the reports of the worsening position of Jews in the Soviet Union, much of which has been hidden behind the so-called policy of glasnost; and, thirdly, does he have any report for us on proposals to set up further committees as requested last week?
So that this House does not appear to be living entirely in cloud cuckooland, may I ask the Leader of the House not if but when he proposes to allow us Government time to discuss the extraordinary proposals which emanated yesterday from the Government which he supports and which will tend to devastate the less well off, the poor and the marginalised in our society in order to pacify the market place and the stock-broker——
You can ask a question of the Leader of the House but you cannot make a speech.
I was just coming to the question. As I said, in order that we can explore Fianna Fáil's conversion to the stockmarkets, when will the Leader of the House give us time to discuss Government economic policy in this House in an open-ended debate where we can discuss the issues that are now most relevant to the Irish people? All the reforming legislation in the world will not get us away from the realities of what this Government are now doing. I ask the Leader of the House to give us ample time to discuss these issues in detail and at length.
I support Senator Ryan in his request. Senators are aware that this is a very different situation. To continue our normal business as though we were not faced with very serious decisions in which this House should play its part would be to undermine some of the emphasis Senators have placed on the role of this House in recent months.
I join with Senator Ryan in asking the Leader of the House to set aside a day at least for a full debate on the proposals of the Government. This House has a contribution to make and should be afforded an opportunity to make it. I specifically ask that a Thursday be allocated, and the sooner the better, for a full debate. It is extremely important. There are Members of this House who are specialists in particular areas. There are six university Senators with a particular interest in education. There are others with a substantial contribution to make. It would make this House relevant if, either this week or next week, we set aside Thursday for a debate on the proposals in relation to the Estimates.
Now you are making a speech as well as your colleague. The Leader of the House understands well what you are saying.
Very well; out of courtesy to you I will leave it there.
At the risk of being accused also of making a speech I would like to say I agree with Senator Manning. The item he referred to, No. 35, is very pertinent just now and all sides of the House would welcome an opportunity to set aside time to deal with that Private Members' Motion. On the item raised by Senator Ryan. I agree thoroughly with him and with Senator Robinson. When estimates are published by the Government which indicate a figure of about £500 million to be taken out of the economy, it is appropriate that this House should have an opportunity which would not normally be given to us because we would be confined to the Appropriations Bill at the end of this year which refers to all expenditure.
Senator Ferris you have not permission now to make that speech. We are not having a debate.
With all due respect to you, a Chathaoirligh, I am asking the Leader of the House a question and, if you will permit me to continue, it is relevant to the every day life of all of us and those we represent. As public representatives in this House of the Oireachtas we should be given the facility to discuss a traumatic cutback of £500 million in public expenditure. The Leader of the House is sufficiently aware of the problems and I hope he will be forthcoming and generous about allocating special time. We are prepared to sit to discuss this matter as we feel we do not have that facility at the moment.
Before you commence Senator O'Toole I understand and I am sure the whole House understands the debate that is being requested here. I am trying to clear the Order of Business. No Senator is entitled to go into detail on a request. If I allow it one week——
We can go into detail if we want to.
No, you cannot, Senator Ferris. I will sit back and listen to you.
That is why I did.
I am sorry that the Cathaoirleach feels the need to put preconditions on my contribution. Hesitant as I am to say what I have to say, I will try to keep——
That is a new style.
Basically with regard to what the Leader of the House proposed, was he asleep for the past 24 hours? Is he aware of what was happening over the past 24 hours? How could he calmly stand up here and talk about taking Item Nos. 1 to 4 when every single person dependent on the State has had a serious blow dealt to them over the past 24 hours? When in his view——
In fairness to the Chair, you are not allowed to make a speech.
In all fairness I will stand——
A question is one thing; the contribution you are now making is more than a question. I appreciate how serious it is, as does everybody else in this House. If Senator Lanigan does not answer you, then we will see. In fairness, and I hope I am fair in this Chair, I do not think any of us is unaware of that has happened in recent hours or days. I am trying to clear the Order of Business today, Senator O'Toole.
If you say the Leader of the House is aware of the fact that he has done everything from upsetting the pupil: teacher ratio in every primary school in Ireland that may well be the case but I will wait for his reply and I will take your word on it.
I will take Senator Manning's questions first. It is intended that the Committee Stage of the Companies (No. 2) Bill will be taken within the next three weeks. I would not like to give a commitment that it will be taken next week. I think it could be taken the week after, but I will not give any further commitment than that. On Item No. 35 there should not be any great difficulty in accommodating the House. If the Whips get together we may be able to take it next week. There is no possibility of taking it this week because time will not allow it. It is a motion that deserves attention in the House. On the question about further committees I have no additional information on further committees. Further committees will be set up and as soon as I have information on them I will report back to the House.
The other interventions that were made have nothing to do with the Order of Business. I assure Senator O'Toole that I have not been asleep over the past number of hours. I have as good a knowledge of what happened as he has and I understand the implications as well as he does. I can guarantee to Senator O'Toole that everybody on this side of the House is as concerned about what happens to this country as he is. However, I will not allow the House to be used by him to push any point which is not relevant to the Order of Business. The Order of Business is as I have read it out. The question of setting aside time to discuss what happened in the past 24 hours can be considered in the future when everybody has had a chance to read the Book of Estimates. I do not think anybody in this House has gone into the implications of it fully and it may be be possible in the future to discuss what the Book of Estimates contains. However it has to be said that this year's Book of Estimates is out at least three months in advance of the production of any other Book of Estimates. This gives everybody an opportunity to have a look at this Book of Estimates and see what is going to happen next year. During the period of the previous Government the Book of Estimates was not produced until well into the New Year which did not give the Government of the day an opportunity to do properly what should have been done during the 12 months covered by the Book of Estimates.
Is this a speech or an answer, a Chathaoirligh?
If Senator O'Toole wishes to take over the leadership of the House he can make his speech. I am replying to issues which were raised. Item No. 4 on the Order Paper today enables us to have a discussion on the implications of the allocations of funds by the Department of the Environment to the local authorities. Everybody who wants to do so will have an opportunity to discuss some of the things raised by Members of the House.
The Leader of the House certainly did not respond to my points.
We are on the Order of Business and the Leader of the House has concluded. Items Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4.
There was no reply to the question I asked the Leader of the House.
What was the question?
Will you provide Government time to discuss Government economic policy?
No.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
Senators
No.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 28; Níl, 21.
Tá
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cullimore, Seamus.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Sean.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Connor, Nicholas.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Robb, John D.A.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Níl
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Connor, John.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Daly, Jack.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Harte, John.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- McCormack, Padraic.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Robinson, Mary T.W.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey; Níl, Senators B. Ryan and J. O'Toole.
Question declared carried.