It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 today and to take No. 3 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 o'clock.
Order of Business.
We cannot hear the Leader of the House.
Senator Murphy did not hear.
Or Senator Ross, who is much younger, cannot hear either.
Items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 and we will take Items No. 3 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 o'clock.
I would like to ask the Chair and also the Leader of the House whether the provisions of this debate on tourism will be sufficiently wide to allow me to raise in my speech the appalling matter of the proposed destruction of some listed buildings in Eccles Street, which is the subject——
You may not say now what you are going to say tonight.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would consider making time available, perhaps tomorrow after the all-party motion on AIDS, to discuss the recent and very disturbing development in Northern Ireland along the Border over the past number of days and, indeed, to have — I know we have had one recently, but events are moving very rapidly — a general limited discussion on recent events in Anglo-Irish relations.
I would also like to ask the same question and to support what Senator Manning has said. In doing so I have to add that, unfortunately, I cannot be here tomorrow. Because of that I take this opportunity to congratulate the Taoiseach on the statesmanship which he demonstrated in his address to the Ard-Fheis last weekend. We are going through a particularly difficult period in Ireland and may I say it is vital that somebody can hold the line because if we——
You cannot make a speech like that on the Order of Business.
May I add one last thing, a Chathaoirligh? The present situation is being exacerbated by the release of Private Thain. This opportunity should be taken to discuss and debate clemency, amnesty and repatriation in an equitable fashion. Please, a Chathaoirligh, listen to me, because it is very likely that this thing will be hyped up and Anglo-Irish relationships in this island will become worse. We should be developing what we have obtained and trying to increase our understanding and so, let us approach this in the constructive manner in which the Taoiseach——
I will have to ask you to leave the House if you persist.
(Interruptions.)
May I congratulate Senator Robb on his technique? I hope to learn from it.
I should like to welcome you back from your holidays, a Chathaoirligh.
That is not in order.
On the Order of Business, I would like to say that those of us, who were at the Ard-Fheis at the weekend missed you also.
I did not attend. I should think it is obvious that if I was missing for a week or two I could not attend the Ard-Fheis as Cathaoirleach.
You could have come as my partner if I had known. I should like to endorse what Senator Manning has said and to ask for a full-blown debate on Anglo-Irish relations. I asked for this a little while ago. Senator Robb has underlined the fact that there are very strong feelings in this House which we cannot express at the moment because we have not got a formal procedure for doing so. Again, because of the crisis, it would be appropriate if the Leader of the House would give us some time for a debate on this matter.
I would like to remind Senators, and particularly my colleagues on the far side of the House, that we circulated a memorandum on decorum within the House and in particular on the Order of Business. The applause in the House today is to be deplored and I am sure you will go along with that.
(Interruptions.)
I would like to support Senator Manning's suggestion if only to reveal that the House will by no means be unanimous on what is happening at present and if only to reduce the empty rhetoric that is going around at present about Anglo-Irish relations. May I also deprecate the increasing habit of Senators who have strong lungs and who have inadequate manners to shout their way through the Order of Business totally against the ruling of the Chair? The thing is becoming absolutely chaotic.
I would like to support the request by Senator Manning for a debate on or discussion of Anglo-Irish relations particularly in the light of recent events. A number of us would wish to have an opportunity to participate in a debate in this House on the issue. In particular I would like to refer back to the Anglo-Irish Agreement which was signed, to the expectations of that time, and to the reality of where we are now, not in a negative sense, I may say, but in the hope that we can be constructive about how to make progress towards peace and reconciliation on this island. There are extremely important issues that we can and should discuss. The views of this House on those issues would be of value and significance at this point and I hope we will have that opportunity.
I would like to support Senator Robb's request for a discussion on this very important matter. This is a forum and a very important forum and many people would like to express themselves. If they are denied the opportunity to speak on something that is of vital importance to all of us, I think the debate takes place in a less controlled atmosphere and, as a result, reports from meetings and results go out and the wrong impression is given. People are misquoted. I urge strongly that we should give time to the matter Senator Robb has raised. It is appropriate that the Seanad should discuss the real crisis we have in many areas in the North at the moment. All too often we have to listen to people who have a misinformed view and sometimes they are the people who get to the media and get the light of publicity. I urge support for Senator Robb's request.
May I ask the Leader of the House, first of all, what has happened to the Adoption (No. 2) Bill? We have waited and waited. I shall have to propose that this House order the Adoption (No. 2) Bill at a very early date, next week or the week after. We did not get an explanation for the disgraceful delay on this issue. May I say also that I support the wishes of my colleagues for a debate on Anglo-Irish relations, or what is left of them, because of the fact that these matters should always be debated first within the Oireachtas? While I do not have a great regard for the mother of Parliaments — as it describes itself — in our nearest neighbouring country, they have established a remarkable tradition where Ministers make their statements on any material issue first in Parliament. It is regrettable that we do not emulate that. I fully agree with Senator Murphy's remarks that there is an enormous amount of empty rhetoric about Northern Ireland but I would say that not all of the empty rhetoric emanates from one side of the debate.
I am not madly enthusiastic about a debate on Northern Ireland at this time for this reason: I believe that any such debate now would be very, very emotional. We may get all the feeling that has built up over the years and this will not help Anglo-Irish relations, or help the Anglo-Irish Agreement. The other reason I do not think it should be discussed at this time is that the Protestant people in the North of Ireland have been given an opportunity now to come and talk to the Taoiseach. That could well be put in jeopardy by any emotional outbursts which might emanate here, because the debates will not be reported exactly as they take place. They will be reported as interpreted. That could lead to more trouble. There is ample opportunity for us to discuss the question of the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the improvement of it. If we get into the middle of something and the emotion builds up we can do more harm than good. I emphasise the fact that the Protestant people are outside of this and they are a majority. Their point of view must be heard before anyone else starts raising the issue.
Fair point. Could I——
You have spoken before, Senator.
One simple point. I go along with what Senator Harte has said in the hope that it might be possible to arrange any discussion there is on a day on which I might be present.
I had not intended to make a contribution on the Order of Business but as we are having a debate on Northern Ireland — half of the debate has now taken place — I do not think it is altogether correct for Senator Harte to say that for the first time the gate is open to the Protestant people. In the four years the Coalition Government were in office it was open to them. The New Ireland Forum was set up and they were invited to contribute which they refused to do. I hope that door will always be kept open but it is not open now for the first time and it is an incorrect impression to give here. If the Leader of the House can give time for a debate I would have great——
I presume Senator McMahon means what he said — you are having the debate.
I would have great confidence in the Members of this House using language which would not interfere in any way with any moves being made towards reconciliation in Northern Ireland. We should have a debate here. It is quite correct that many things have been said outside, at private and public meetings, and we could easily give a lead in the right direction here. I would have great confidence that Members of this House would not use language which would in any way interfere with any efforts being made to bring about an improvement.
Could I also ask the Leader of the House to consider a debate of this nature? Like Senator McMahon, I had not intended to say anything but I agree with Senator McMahon that the Members of this House of all sides have always adopted a very responsible, mature attitude towards any debate on any issue. It is churlish, but then again unfortunately typical of Senator Murphy that he should introduce a note of acrimony into what is a very serious, sensitive area for this country. We should at least show not only to our own people but to the world in general that we in this House are representatives and custodians of democratic principles and that when it comes to serious debates of this nature we can discuss matters in a serious and restrained way, which is what is called for at present.
This is really a question. I was wondering would it be appropriate to congratulate Senator Mooney on having become a father on Monday night when his wife, Sheila, gave birth to a baby girl, Marie?
I do not think it arises on the Order of Business whether Senator Mooney has a daughter or son.
I also like the idea that we should have a debate and if we are to have it we should have it on a day that would suit Senator Robb.
I have a note about Senator David Norris. I am not sure whether I was to reply to something he said or that he was making a comment. If he had a question I will answer it, if I can, afterwards. The main question is that of the debate on Northern Ireland. Senators Manning, Ross, Robb, Mooney, Murphy, McGowan, Farrell, Robinson, O'Toole and Ryan all spoke on this. I have no objection to having a debate here on the situation in the Anglo-Irish sphere at present. I do not think tomorrow would be the appropriate day to have it. I suggest that we should have a debate at an early date.
There are a number of reasons why I do not think it should be held tomorrow. There is a meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference today: there is a meeting tomorrow; another meeting and a statement next Tuesday. I suggest that after next Tuesday that we can set an early date for the debate. Unfortunately, it would appear that Thursday does not suit Senator Robb but Government business will be taken on Wednesday next. Unless we can come to some arrangement to suit Senator Robb, it would seem as if the debate will have to take place on a Thursday. However, we will have a talk with Senator Robb and see if we can arrange a date that will suit him and the Minister. There is no point in having Senator Robb here if we do not have the Minister here. There is no point in having a debate if we do not have a reply from the Minister.
On the question of the Adoption (No. 2) Bill, I signified to the House last week that the reason for the delay has nothing to do with tardiness on the Government's part, that there are very difficult constitutional matters to be dealt with before this Bill comes before the House. These constitutional matters have just about been eliminated and it is hoped that the Bill will be taken at a very early stage. I am not saying it will be next week; it could be the week after. The Bill will be taken in the near future. I do not think any other question was asked. I do not know exactly what Senator Norris was referring to.
It was on Item No. 3. We can deal with that tonight when we take the item.
Order to Business agreed to.