Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1988

Vol. 121 No. 6

Adjournment Matter. - Donagh (County Donegal) Protestant National School.

Mr. Loughrey

I thank the Minister for attending this debate. Donagh national school, a Protestant school, is situated in north Inishowen. It is the result of amalgamation and closure of three other smaller Protestant schools. The condition of the schools first came to my attention in July or August of this year when I visited that area with the Leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Alan Dukes. As a result of visiting the school, I had the following correspondence from a parent——

I met yourself and Alan Dukes on your visit to Carndonagh a month ago and we discussed the problem we are facing at our local Protestant school. We were sanctioned a brick building in April 1984, by the then Fine Gael Government after one of our two chalets was flattened in strong gales. The chalets had been used for 24 years.

I am not sure whether the same chalets were used continually for the 24 years but this is what it would appear to be.

We were granted a third teacher last February which was at least a help as the teachers and children were under the same cramped conditions even though she (that was the third teacher) was placed in a derelict building over a mile away. Now we received another blow which I think has since been solved. We have heard that we will be back to two teachers again in September which means that two teachers will have 36 children each in two small chalets which were originally designed for 20. Can anyone please explain why we are having these added difficulties thrown at us? Surely the Department should be compensating us for the closure over the years of three other local Protestant schools.

Some of the children are doing a round trip of 25 miles each day on overcrowded mini-buses. When my first child began school, she was home at 3.20 each day. Now my fourth child is not collected from school until 3.40 after the mini-bus, which was put on for the Protestants of the area, has served two other schools first, with the result that she does not get home until 4.10 each day. Added to that she has to have one of the younger children on her knee each day as the bus is overcrowded. In September three new pupils will be starting. How much more of this have we to put up with? I am seriously thinking of getting extra tuition for my child to prepare her for secondary school in Raphoe. Why are we supposed to accept less than our neighbours?

I presume the neighbours she is referring to are her Catholic neighbours.

An Cathaoirleach

May I interrupt you, Senator Loughrey. It would be better if you made your own contribution rather than reading a letter in total. I do not mind a quotation from a letter to make your point, which I appreciate, but I do not think it is proper to read the full letter——

Mr. Loughrey

I respect that ruling. My reason for doing it in that way is to try to impress upon the Minister how that parent felt about the education of her children and the frustrations she feels about it.

One of the things I would like to say is that in that letter, and in another letter from a member of the parents association, there is an inference — to say the very least — that there is an anti-Protestant bias in the area. I know that the Department of Education regulations down the years have a built-in pro-Protestant bias. For example, fewer numbers are required for school bus services than are for Catholic children. As far as I know, the numbers for retention of teachers are lower than for Catholic children, so I understand there is no negative bias there. It is not important that I understand it; it is important that the Protestants in that area who are affected understand it. Because of their closeness to Northern Ireland both physically and through the various relationships they will have with people in Northern Ireland, it is very important that we make it absolutely clear as the old saying goes that "not alone has justice to be done but it must be seen to be done".

The pro-Protestant bias, which we know exists, must be made clear to them but it can hardly be clear if there are 72 children in two small chalets. In fact, that situation has now changed, in one sense for the better, but in another sense, maybe for the worst. The third teacher has been reinstated after the revision of the numbers but this teacher has moved to another building over a mile away. From what I can gather, the teacher who volunteered to go is the principal of the school. It seems strange to me that the principal is in one building with her class while her two assistants are in another building over a mile away. We would all agree that that is not a desirable situation.

In the correspondence they say they asked if a new school was being built, but the answer from the Minister was no. I quote from the correspondence as follows:

I have been in contact with Deputy Frank Fahey's office this week and have been told that there are no plans to give us a new school ..."

This is despite the fact that they were granted the school four and a half years ago. The measurements of the chalets are important. They measure 29ft. X 16ft. X 7ft. 10 in. and 20ft. X 24ft. X 7ft. 10 in. with a tiny play area which is dangerous for smaller children. They have the problem that four children are in need of remedial teaching.

I referred already to the blowing down of the chalet. That chalet was blown down by a gale 15 minutes after the children had left school. The parents are asking whether they have to wait until a similiar disaster occurs again before somebody will sit up and take notice. At the time this letter was written, on 9 September, the secretary of the parents associations had been waiting three months for the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, to meet a deputation only to be advised that the Minister was too busy. In these times of cutbacks it is understandable that all Ministers are busy, but I think the Minister should not have been too busy to meet this deputation — however, I gather that she met them earlier today, which I find very strange. It is possibly pure coincidence but——

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. F. Fahey)

It was arranged some time ago.

Mr. Loughrey

To the best of my knowledge they only became aware of the arrangement three or four days ago. I became aware of it only this afternoon on meeting Deputy Hugh Conaghan. A little to my surprise he did not invite me to be on the deputation either beforehand or when I found out coincidentally today from a chance remark which was passed that they were meeting a deputation. I pointed out to Deputy Conaghan that I was raising this matter on the Adjournment in the expectation that he would say I had better come along, but he did not. I did not want to push myself because I was not a part of the setting up of the deputation, but I felt that I might have been invited. Which Minister did they meet today?

Mr. F. Fahey

They met with the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke.

Mr. Loughrey

I do not know the results of that meeting, but I will put a few figures before the Minister. Apparently his Department are volunteering an increased grant to them. I do not have that grant figure. They have a site with full title and £20,000 and they contend that building a new school, according to estimates provided to them by a chartered quantity surveyor, would in fact save the Department money. To remodel the existing school at Glebe would cost £100,000. To build a new school on their site would cost £154,000, admittedly a differential of £54,000, but that does not take into consideration the provision of the site.

Finally, I am sure that they have made their case well today to the Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke. I am attempting to add, not just my voice but my support to the case, whatever case they have made. I wish to emphasise the two most important things in it: first, the danger that exists to those children and, secondly, the importance that they will not feel any negative bias but rather that they should feel and know of the positive bias.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. F. Fahey)

I thank Senator Loughrey for his very fair contribution. My information is that Donagh national school at Carndonagh has an average enrolment of 72 pupils drawn from the Protestant communities in the locality. It has a staff of two teachers. The present building comprises two prefabricated classrooms, one of which was provided in 1984 with grant-aid from my Department to replace a prefabricated classroom damaged during the storm. The present site is reported to be somewhat restricted.

My Department in 1985, on the basis of enrolment forecasts made at that time, indicated to the school authorities that they proposed to request the Commissioners of Public Works to design a new three classroom school which would have a general purposes area and the usual ancillary accommodation. Subsequently, due to pressure on the commissioners' personnel, the commissioners agreed that the school authorities might engage their own architects for the design work.

Obviously, the 1985 decision envisaged an increase in the staff level of the school. The plans which were subsequently submitted were acceptable from an architectural point of view, but on cost grounds could not be proceeded with because of pressure on the capital available for national school building. Apart from this factor, it began to be a bit doubtful that the staffing at the school would, in the long term, reach the level envisaged when the brief for the project was first settled.

It is accepted generally that the present accommodation is unsuitable, and in line with the Department's current policy of avoiding duplication of scarce resources, and with a view to improving accommodation, it was suggested that the school should explore the possibility of using a vacant national school building in Carndonagh, the improvement of which my Department would be willing to grant-aid if acquired by the Donagh national school. My Department's costings for the improvement works suggested a satisfactory job could be done at a modest cost, and would result in a significant improvement in working conditions for the school. This suggestion, however, did not find favour with some of the parents of the children attending the school, who held that the correct solution was the original one of providing a new school on a new site.

The present position is that a deputation from the school met the Minister for Education this evening and a discussion of the case in some detail took place. The points made to the Minister at this meeting will be carefully considered.

The Senator will appreciate that I do not wish at this stage to pre-empt matters by attempting at this point to speculate on the outcome of today's discussions. A decision will be conveyed as soon as possible to the school authorities about the latest representations, and in view of his interests in the matter I will have the Senator informed of the developments.

With regard to the transport problem raised by the Senator, I am not aware of any difficulties, but I would appreciate it if he would give me the letter in regard to the transport. Is it correct that the bus is overcrowded and that therefore a bigger bus is required?

Mr. Loughrey

The transport was laid on for Protestants but it would seem that they must be collecting Catholic children on the way before the Protestant children get on. Her daughter is not now home until 4.10 p.m. and has to nurse a younger child, which suggests that there is overcrowding there.

I forgot to mention that in one of the two locations, there is only one toilet bowl available for a mixed group of older children.

Mr. F. Fahey

The Minister is aware that the accommodation is not good and she is certainly undertaking to deal with the problem as quickly as possible. Senator, may I take the letter from you in regard to the transport, and I will bring it to the Minister's attention? Indeed, the Minister shows her great concern for all minorities and I know that she will be keen to act in this matter as quickly as possible. Certainly I would be keen that those people do not feel they are treated in an inferior way to anybody else. I will bring that to the Minister's attention immediately and if there is a reasonable case to be made, I have no doubt but that she will respond positively in regard to providing an improvement.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 November 1988.