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Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2022

Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Supplementary)

Apologies have been received from the Chairperson, Deputy Matthews. I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and his officials to the meeting. I thank them for the briefing material which was provided in advance and has been circulated to committee members. The meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which were referred by the Dáil to this committee. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimates, there is an opportunity for the committee to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on the relevant performance issues.

I propose to proceed by asking the Minister to give a high-level overview of the pressures impacting on the Department's performance and on related expenditure for each programme area for 2022. I would appreciate if his contribution takes no longer than five minutes. Having discussed the programme areas detailed in the briefing paper, if Members wish to pose questions relating to any issue not covered, they may do so also. I propose to do that using our existing rota. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Cathaoirleach agus na Teachtaí.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the select committee my Department's Supplementary Estimate for 2022. I am joined this afternoon by Ms Sinéad Kehoe, finance officer; Ms Sinéad O'Gorman, local government finance; and Mr. David Kelly, from the housing finance and delivery co-ordination unit in the Department.

In February, I met with the committee and discussed the 2022 Estimate for my Department in general. I thank Members for their engagement on that occasion. I also express my gratitude to the committee for facilitating this meeting at relatively short notice. That is appreciated. I will keep my introductory remarks as brief as possible and focused on the subject matter at hand.

The Estimate, which I presented to the committee in February, detailed my Department's budget for 2022. This totalled more than €5.9 billion for the year and comprised €2.5 billion in current funding and €3.4 billion on the capital side. This was supplemented by a €276 million capital carryover from 2021. In addition, my Department's housing programmes have benefited this year from non-Exchequer funding of €91.5 million that was made available from the proceeds of the local property tax, LPT. This represents a very substantial element of overall Government expenditure in 2022, and is instrumental in funding core areas of activity under the remit of my Department, not exclusively but in particular in the areas of housing, water, local government and heritage.

The technical Supplementary Estimate before the committee does not involve a net increase in the total level of spending, other than a token €1,000. It does, however, allow for the reallocation of funding within my Department's existing resources, which will permit funds not expected to be utilised this year to be moved from capital subheads to meet some current cost pressures arising within those capital subheads.

The technical Supplementary Estimate includes the following changes: €156.4 million in current funding from the Local Government Fund; €70 million in current funding for Irish Water; and €197 million capital funding under housing.

As Members will be aware, budget 2022 saw significant funds allocated to my Department to underpin a very ambitious set of deliverables across all programmes. With two years of pandemic interruptions behind us, all stakeholders were mobilised to make up lost ground and set a pathway for accelerated delivery. The onset of the war in Ukraine, coupled with global supply chain issues, recruitment challenges and a volatile inflation environment, had a major impact in the earlier part of the year, with the effects pushing delivery of some projects and, accordingly, expenditure into subsequent quarters. Working within the confines of the annual budgetary process means a need for alignment and reconciliation with multi-annual programmes.

The capital carryover facility is a key instrument in managing budgets across annual cycles to accommodate real-world schedules, which are not calendar-year driven. I have signalled to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, that I will be relying on a full capital carryover into 2023 to ensure that any delayed delivery is funded without impact on already agreed activity next year.

The local government element of this Supplementary Estimate is focused on issues related to Covid-19, the cost of recent national pay agreements and supplementary support required for local authorities in 2023. For 2022, the Government is making a significant contribution of €395 million to support local authorities. A large portion of this figure will be used to assist local authorities with the cumulative effect on pay costs arising from the national pay agreements and the unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation. The allocation of €47.7 million in the Supplementary Estimate is to ensure that the sector is adequately covered for the most recently ratified pay agreement, including the backdating of pay increases to February 2022. This brings the total allocation for the year to €209.6 million, a sizeable contribution to ensure that local authorities have the necessary resources, in particular in terms of people, to perform their functions and provide essential public services to citizens, of which there are in excess of 1,000.

The Government has provided unprecedented levels of support to local authorities in respect of the pandemic, including providing €1.2 billion for a commercial rates waiver for 2020 and 2021. That is a very important initiative to support businesses, but also to ensure there is no shortfall in funding for local authorities, with a 100% rebate and an additional €191 million in support towards lost income and expenditure in the same period. This support has been extended into 2022, with a more limited rates waiver for the first quarter of the year, at an estimated cost of €62.3 million.

Furthermore, the Government is very aware of the recent funding pressures facing the sector, and will continue to provide support for local authorities during this challenging time. In this regard, an additional €60 million supplementary support is being provided for local authorities in 2023. The purpose of this additional funding is to assist the sector in meeting the increasing costs involved in providing a wide range of services, in particular, rising energy costs. This support will be distributed to individual local authorities in a fair and equitable manner, based on each local authority's share of total energy costs of the sector. I am confident that this additional funding will provide much-needed support to local authorities to enable them to continue to provide their excellent services in 2023.

Moving on to Irish Water, it is important to note that the investment in public water services is vital to maintain and enhance water services infrastructure to ensure current levels of service, to safeguard public health and to ensure compliance by adequately treating wastewater to protect our environment. Irish Water is the biggest public sector consumer of energy in the country, and it will come as no surprise to anyone that the current inflationary crisis has had a significant impact on its operational costs. There are also increased design, build and operate, DBO, contract costs due to energy increases. Irish Water operates 265 sites through DBO contracts, a significant proportion of which refer to the electricity wholesale price index, with resulting increases. A further portion of contracts relate to the Consumer Price Index, CPI. These pressures, along with general inflation increases, have resulted in baseline costs forecasts to increase.

To mitigate this impact, Irish Water requires a virement of €70 million from capital to current funding in 2022. This consists of €20 million for increased costs in 2022, due to price increases in contracts tied to the electricity wholesale price index and €50 million of an invoice acceleration programme, bringing forward legitimate invoices for early payment in December 2022, to alleviate funding pressures in 2023. Capital investment in public water services is vital to support housing delivery and economic recovery and expansion, and for delivering environmental compliance. Irish Water has increased the capacity in its supply chain to continue to increase its delivery capability in 2023 and beyond. There will be continued investment in programmes such as main rehabilitation, find and fix, capital maintenance and lead programmes, along with a significant number of stand-alone projects ongoing or due to commence in 2023.

It has been yet again a year of volatility for the construction sector. The impact of the war in Ukraine, which I previously mentioned, construction products inflation, supply chain issues and rising energy prices have created a difficult delivery environment. This resulted in delays to some projects earlier this year as contractors dealt with the impact of construction costs. Measures introduced by this Government to address material inflation and energy costs, through the introduction of the inflation-supply chain delay co-operation framework, have resulted in an improvement in the delivery environment and supply chain issues have generally stabilised. My Department is now working closely with local authorities and approved housing bodies to maximise delivery this year and to continue to build the pipeline for delivery under future years of Housing for All. We have supported local authorities with the provision of additional resources for their housing teams and this recruitment is having a tangible impact as the posts are filled. Very strong delivery is forecast in the last quarter of this year and this will see an acceleration in the capital expenditure on housing programmes in the remaining weeks.

The housing element of this Supplementary Estimate is focused on additional capital assistance scheme, CAS, funding for 2022 and the establishment of a land acquisition fund. The A7 CAS subhead is one of the main sources within the Department’s Vote to provide funding to approved housing bodies for the construction and acquisition of homes for priority categories of housing need, including older people, homeless households, people with a disability and decongregation from institutions for persons with intellectual disabilities. Capital funding under this programme also supports delivery in emerging areas of housing need such as new refuges for victims of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and the provision of emergency accommodation for single homeless individuals.

Additional CAS funding for 2022 of €72 million is required in light of a strong upswing in CAS activity and expenditure. This additional 2022 funding should see an increased delivery of approximately 600 units of accommodation under CAS for priority categories of housing need in 2022. This additional funding, if approved, will deliver additional units this year and will also support the progression of around 1,000 other CAS units at various stages of planning and design.

Housing for All includes measures to support local authorities to acquire suitable land to deliver the social housing programme and aims to deliver an average of 10,000 new build homes each year from now to 2030. It is now proposed to deploy the Department’s capital funding where it can be most impactful in supporting additional supply in the housing system through this land initiative, mindful of the need to use all policy and fiscal levers within my control at this time, when our housing system is under exceptional pressure. Housing for All includes measures to support local authorities to acquire the land that they require to deliver an average of 10,000 new build homes to 2030. The allocation of €125 million to establish a land acquisition fund under the Housing Agency is an important step in addressing this requirement.

This initiative is aligned with the priority actions in our plan and the first annual update, and given the urgency of the current accommodation shortage, also seeks to fast-track progress. The analysis of land available to underpin social housing delivery out to 2030 is well advanced under action 4.1 of Housing for All. It takes account of the data available from the local authorities' housing delivery action plans and identifies the land gap remaining. This initiative will allow acceleration of this action ahead of the planned timeline of quarter 3 2023 by identifying and beginning to acquire suitable land banks to support the ongoing social housing need. The sector will also be asked to focus to a great degree on modern methods of construction to accelerate the delivery of housing in line with the ambitions set out in Housing for All.

The availability of a land fund under the aegis of the Housing Agency, with commensurate expertise, would mean that individual local authorities are less reliant on seeking to scope out land opportunities, conduct negotiations and finalise deals within the calendar year. This will give greater flexibility on targeting suitable sites and enabling greater value for money to be achieved. The Housing Agency will work closely with the Department and the local authorities in relation to site selection, based on an agreed approval procedure and an agreed set of criteria.

My Department is also introducing other measures to activate land by addressing local authority land legacy loans. To unlock the potential of some of these sites to allow them to be made immediately available for social housing development, my Department will allocate up to €100 million to pay down land loans, which can then deliver social and affordable housing projects linked to accelerated delivery. To ensure this accelerated delivery, funding would be allocated to sites which could be immediately activated, commencing construction next year and early in 2024 at the latest and use accelerated delivery models, principally off-site and modern methods of construction.

My Department continues to work intensively with all stakeholders to maximise delivery for 2022. It is clear, however, that there will be a lower than anticipated expenditure, particularly on programmes which are construction focused. As noted, I have applied the maximum permissible carry-over of funds into the 2022 capital programmes. It is too early at this stage to quantify the exact out-turn for affected programmes, and the Department continues to work closely with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in this regard. I can confirm that there will be no capital surrender this year from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

I have tried to keep my remarks as brief as possible, and focused specifically on the purpose of this meeting, namely, the technical Supplementary Estimate for local government, water and housing. I will, of course, be happy to deal with matters that members wish to raise and to revert to the committee regarding any queries we may not be able to answer.

We will start with questions from members. Given the small number on this select committee, I propose we have ten-minute speaking slots. I call Deputy Flaherty.

I thank the Minister for coming in and briefing us on the update to the Estimates. I commend him on his work. He probably has one of the most difficult portfolios in the Government. Considerable and significant progress has been made during the year and I am conscious the Department is going to have a strong final quarter.

Needless to say, colleagues beside me will not agree but I am very much of the view that the Minister is getting to grips with the crisis. It is an unprecedented crisis and requires an all-hands-on-deck approach. The Minister has taken a strong leadership role in this regard.

There are a few issues I want to pick up on. We are never going to pass up a chance to have a good kick at Irish Water. It is disappointing that body is looking to reallocate funding. I would like to think all agencies are as serious about resolving the housing crisis as the Minister is but it has not dawned on Irish Water yet that there is a crisis and it has a key part to play. I will give a local example. The third- and fourth-largest towns in Longford are Ballymahon and Edgeworthstown. We cannot build any houses there at present because Irish Water does not have capacity in its treatment plants. I have made several inquiries about this in my time here over the past two years. The first reply to a parliamentary question I got back from Irish Water said it would have capacity in 2023 and the latest one states it will be 2025. I suppose I was naive and believed the first reply when I got it but I know now not to believe any such replies from Irish Water. What level of engagement is there with Irish Water? Has the Department identified the likes of those situations? It is crazy. If we look at Ballymahon, Center Parcs is extending its resort and will doubtless have to provide its own treatment plant. The company is going to struggle to get staff. A key challenge experienced by the company when trying to recruit senior management is that the housing stock simply is not there for them. That is one of the questions I would like the Minister to come back to me on.

A number of months ago he advised county councils that where rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and housing assistance payment, HAP, tenants have been given notice to quit, the council can engage and buy those properties without seeking prior approval. Is the Minister able to give us any indication of the level of take-up on that by local authorities? I am aware he may not have it off the top of his head but it would be good to see. Are local authorities actively engaging with that initiative?

I appreciate extra staff have been put into the local authorities. Again, I can only reference what I am seeing myself. When it comes to getting houses back into stock, Longford County Council is the lowest in the country. The key issues there are the existing staff within the council and trying to recruit contractors to do the work. It would be good if we could get more craft workers into the local authority itself. Money is the perennial issue but it would be good to get more for those works. I am conscious the framework for Longford County Council is due for renewal next year. At the minute it is limited to possibly two or three contractors. When I speak to contractors, they say it is too onerous for them to try to get on the framework and then tender for the work. If we have just two or three contractors, we are going to have more expense. We therefore need to do something that is going to make it more attractive for more contractors to look at this work. That will ultimately help us to turn it around much quicker.

On the housing adaptation grants, the Minister has progressively increased that budget since coming into office but I am keen to see more done on that as well.

Another item on my list of demands for the Minister for the new year is that we should engage on the road networks. I will cite another Longford example. We are looking at an N4 upgrade. It was stalled when the economy crashed and is potentially back on track. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, intervened when it was paused and let it go to the next stage, so we are looking at route selection at the moment. The problem is that a large track of land either side of the route corridor has been sterilised and that is affecting potential land development. With the best will in the world, that bypass, were it to go ahead, will not do so for ten years and yet there is a significant swath of land within that which is held up for development.

Returning to what I said about Irish Water, it is notable that in the context of the new zoned land tax, Longford County Council has exempted both Ballymahon and Edgeworthstown because you cannot build in those areas and therefore, we cannot realistically hit people with a tax. On the one hand, we are trying to activate land and get people to get their land into the market and open it up for builders, but at the same time another agency that should have an intrinsic investment in resolving this problem is not stepping up to the plate and doing what it needs to do.

I am pleased we are going to have strong delivery in the final quarter. As I said, the Minister has a very difficult task but he has met it head on. I greatly admire his enthusiasm. We have seen significant progress in the area of housing this year and I am confident we are getting to grips with it.

I would be remiss if I did not mention affordable housing for rural Ireland. I thank the Minister for engaging with me on the specific issues we are having in Longford. By way of update, officials from the council are coming to Dublin next week to meet key Department members to try to come up with a bespoke solution for affordable housing in County Longford. I am pleased we are at that point and am increasingly confident we may be able to get a bespoke solution for Longford before the end of the year. It might be something that can be replicated across other counties that find themselves in a similar situation as well.

We have many challenges with housing in rural Ireland. The Minister will have seen the Daft.ie report on rentals this week. Traditionally, Longford was the-----

I am conscious the Minister must be allowed time to answer the questions as well.

I am sorry. I thought I had the whole ten minutes.

No, not at all.

I will let the Aire ar ais isteach.

He was looking like he was itching to answer some of the questions the Deputy was posing.

I thank the Deputy for his contribution, kind words and ongoing engagement.

I will focus on Irish Water first. In 2022, we had a capital allocation to Irish Water of about €1.4 billion. Next year it is about €1.6 billion. There is much work to be done but the good thing is that Irish Water now has sight of a multi-annual programme that is fully funded. There is certainly catching up needed. The Deputy mentioned Ballymahon. There are about 800 different settlements, towns and villages across the country and some do not have any wastewater plants to speak of at all. However, the capital programme is expanding. The Deputy asked about my interaction with Irish Water. I deal with it weekly. With regard to housing delivery, Irish Water has appointed at senior level a Housing for All officer so where we have blockages within the system, if members can excuse the pun, Irish Water is at the table on the housing delivery side of things to unblock them. An example of this is allowing builders to self-lay based on certification. We ran a pilot programme I started in the July I became Minister. That has expanded now. We get contractors in who are fully certified and can do the self-lay and connections to water and wastewater right out to the public road. That has been working well and is expanding across the country. It is reducing the delivery times, particularly around connections, which were a big issue. Connections remain an issue in some parts of the country but it is absolutely getting better and from my own visits across the country I am picking that up on the ground.

The Deputy asked about notices to quit. It is something many Deputies have shown an interest in. I will be very clear with the committee. I am engaging with local authorities every day and they have been told to purchase homes with tenants in situ where the tenant is a HAP or RAS tenant and has been issued a notice to quit. The most recent figures I have so far on this show that since the initiative came in around 700 homes have either been completed or are in the process of being completed and there are more coming in every day. That is bringing more units into our public housing stock and saving people from going into homelessness as well.

On affordable housing schemes, we are working with Longford County Council. I met with its officials on this specifically, as the Deputy knows. I have approved 30 schemes across the country through the local authority affordable purchase scheme and the affordable housing fund. Within that we will deliver about 2,000 homes and those are being added to every month. There are counties that were not initially in it like Limerick and Westmeath. We will have a scheme in from Mayo shortly. There is also Clare. We are seeing it expanding right across the country and obviously there is Dublin, Cork, Waterford and elsewhere.

We will respond in writing on anything the Deputy raised that we did not get to.

I thank the Minister for his opening statement and briefing paper. I have some very specific questions on the Estimates. Perhaps we will take them in turn. Page 5 of the briefing document tells us that the voted capital allocation for housing was €2.46 billion. We know that up to the end of the third quarter, approximately €990 million was spent, leaving €1.46 billion to be spent by the end of the year. There is also a carryover of €240 million. That is clear. Some €1.22 billion of what was allocated for housing needs to be spent by the end of the year if, as the Minister has said, there is to be no capital surrender. When he says that, is the Minister saying there will not be any shortfall in the housing capital spend other than the carryover of €240 million or is some additional underspend possible?

As the Deputy knows, because we have discussed and debated this, there will be very strong delivery in the last quarter. I am not being evasive in any way but I cannot give the final figure yet. We are working on every scheme out there.

I appreciate that the Minister will not know until the end of the year but I will ask a factual question. Is the Minister confident that he will get as close as possible to spending all of that €1.22 billion?

What we have done and what we are doing today, particularly through the land acquisition fund, which will be transferred to the Housing Agency this year and is something for which the local authorities have been asking for a long-----

I have a question on that which we will deal with separately if the Minister does not mind.

I am just trying to answer the questions as Deputy Ó Broin puts them. I am confident that there will be no capital surrender in respect of housing this year. In this technical Supplementary Estimate, we are reworking some of what is within it.

I appreciate that. I am just asking the questions for the sake of clarity. I am not looking to have a row with the Minister. I will do that on the floor next week. On underspends and carryovers, I appreciate that there is a range of reasons for these. Where there has been an underspend and carryover in previous years, it has obviously meant that certain targets were not met. One of the questions we asked in a recent private meeting with the Minister's officials was what happens to the unmet targets. We asked whether they get rolled into the following year or whether there is an expectation they will be met by 2026, the end date for the targets. Where targets are missed, are they rolled into the targets for future years?

To add to the answer I gave to the Deputy's first question, we are trying to ensure maximum delivery this year. We will know exactly where we are in respect of the targets for new builds, leasing and acquisition. The overall target we set for this year is 10,500 social housing units. I am just using that as an example. I am confident that we will achieve that target. The mix within the overall figure may be slightly different from what we would have liked. We will not attain the figure of 9,000 new builds. I do not have the final figure yet but we will attain the 10,500 figure. As I said in my opening statement, on the capital carryover, it is important to ensure that there is no pressure on capital the following year in respect of, for argument's sake, any schemes that were delayed in 2021. Some schemes will go into the first quarter of next year but, as the Deputy will know, what we set out in Housing for All are multi-annual targets, which we have actually detailed.

I have another question which I again ask only for clarity. If, for example, the number of new builds last year was several thousand units shy and if the number is 1,000 units shy this year - we will wait and see - is the Minister saying that those lost units will be caught up with by the end of 2025 or 2026 or is he saying that such a shortfall of 1,000 units may hypothetically be met by 1,000 acquisitions?

As the Deputy knows, for the first time, we have set out housing delivery action plans that detail delivery over a five-year period in every local authority area, including his own. It is expected that those targets will absolutely be met.

Will they be rolled into subsequent years up to 2025 and 2026?

Targets for the period of the plan are published within it. It is expected that all of these homes will be delivered. It is my absolute desire that this happens. Where local authorities do not meet targets, if there is a particular shortfall that does not relate to, for example, a project not being delivered but to another difficulty, we engage directly with those local authorities. I am thankful that some local authorities are going to exceed their targets. We want that to happen because we need more. We all know of the pressures on housing, particularly on the social and affordable housing side.

Does that mean that the annual targets within those five years that have been agreed with the Department in the housing delivery action plans could be revised annually such that, if a local authority missed a target in the first or second year, its target would be increased for the third or fourth year? How is that going to work practically?

I understand what the Deputy is saying. I had not intended to use a specific local authority as an example but the Deputy will be aware that I have had issues with two significant schemes in the Dublin City Council areas because of water ingress. These were expected to be delivered this year but I do not want to take on units that are deficient in any way and so they will fall into next year. Again, the funding for next year is there so one would expect that, in those instances, local authorities' delivery would be in excess of their 2023 targets. The purpose of having multi-annual targets and showing targets to the end of 2025 is that the local authorities know what they have to do over that period.

None of us predicted Covid or the war in Ukraine.

I understand. I was just seeking clarity on what happens with the targets.

If, as I hope, we get a clear year next year in which we do not have external issues, there are matters within our control that we can certainly improve on.

The hope is that targets could be exceeded next year if the Minister gets a clear year.

On the targets we have set for local authorities, we all know the pressures on housing. We need to do more there. I have given the example of Dublin City Council. That is what I expect to happen.

I thank the Minister for the clarity. I have four very quick questions, if he does not mind. Are the 700 acquisitions the Minister mentioned in response to Deputy O'Flaherty's question acquisitions or tenant in situ acquisitions? I have asked parliamentary questions and the Department has told me officially that it cannot separate out standard acquisitions under the original scheme from tenant in situ acquisitions. Are those 700 tenant in situ acquisitions or just general acquisitions?

The Deputy will note that, in the targets we set earlier this year, we set a target for acquisitions of only 200. The reason for this is that I want to focus on new builds.

We are producing breakdowns of those figures but we do not have them quite yet. However, the vast bulk of that increase relates to tenants in situ. I am not being evasive but, in working through the data, I see that we are getting homes with tenants in situ in every day. I encourage local authorities to continue with that. We will have that breakdown.

When the Minister has it, which I presume will be in the first quarter of next year, it might be useful to make that distinction in any published data on acquisitions.

It would be. I want local authorities to accelerate work in this area.

That is perfect. I have three final questions. The €70 million for Irish Water obviously arises out of the arrangements for design, build and operate contracts. Was any attempt made to introduce burden sharing or to look at the profits of the private operators? Is the State taking on the full extra cost of the increased utility charges or are the design, build and operate contractors taking on any of that extra cost themselves?

We have asked Irish Water to accelerate its invoicing, that is, invoicing to be paid this year to take pressure off next year. On the design, build and operate piece, we are allowing Irish Water to reallocate those funds for additional costs. As the Deputy knows, we have introduced burden sharing at a ratio of 70:30 on the housing side under the inflation framework. For capital projects on which Irish Water has engaged with contractors to reduce costs-----

I am specifically asking about the €70 million in the Estimate, which is current expenditure.

We will revert to Deputy Ó Broin on that. I do not want to give him any incorrect information so I will revert to him in writing.

I have two final questions and, again, if the Minister does not have the answers, it would be great if he could share them with the committee later. Obviously, any increase in capital assistance scheme, CAS, funding is welcome. Moving capital from one area to another to avoid a surrender is valuable. It would be good to know where those extra 600 units are and what kind of CAS accommodations they represent. If the Minister does not have an answer now, a response in writing would be fine.

Likewise, in respect of the €100 million being put into land, it would be useful to know where that land is. I am sure the committee would want to know. From memory, the land that did not make it into the land aggregation scheme was predominantly, although not exclusively, in rural counties and was trickier and more difficult land to deal with, which is why it did not find its way into the scheme. That is not a reason to pay down the local authorities' debts. If that is the land in question, activating it for any kind of building is going to be a challenge. If the Minister does not have that information now, members would appreciate it if a list of these lands could be shared with the committee.

There is about €300 million in legacy debt on land that was purchased.

The €100 million will very much be focused on land that can be activated next year. Not all that land will be rural, by the way. Once we-----

Does that mean some of it might have planning permission already or-----

Some of it may have planning permission. There are a couple of land holdings. One in particular comes to mind but I will not mention where it is. There is a debt of €9 million on a piece of land that we could activate by writing out those debts. We know where that land is. I am sure that information could be shared but we will have to consider the debt piece and whether there is commercial sensitivity in that regard. What I will be focusing on in the context of the €100 million is allocating that to land that can be activated. There may be difficult sites that may never be built on. Those are not the ones that we are looking to reduce on this tranche; it will be to activate-----

If the Minister can share that information with the committee, we would welcome it.

I will see what we can share. The specific debt piece-----

I am not looking for information on the level of debt; it is more the location and size of the land.

I know that. In that regard, we will be asking local authorities - we are working with them already on this - to identify to us the lands we can activate in the coming months. Some lands have permission; others do not. Permissions may have lapsed. As I stated to the Deputy in the House earlier this week, I will be seeking to bring forward, particularly in social housing, emergency planning measures before the end of the year to help us to activate those lands.

In the course of our discussions with local authorities, Cork City Council identified a site it has. It indicated that if it did not have to carry that debt over, the units would be more affordable. Is that-----

Cork City Council let the genie out of the bottle. I was not going to say it. That site is one I can use as an example. There is €9 million debt on the site that can be activated and we can move on it.

That is good news.

It might be a different site. There are a couple of sites in Cork. The council identified sites to the committee directly. We are aware of the sites, where they are and what the legacy debt is on them.

The list suggested by Deputy Ó Broin would be useful.

I thank the Minister for being present and I thank him and his team for their commitment to resolving the housing crisis. It is about maximising delivery, fast-tracking progress and accelerating actions because of the urgency of the accommodation shortage. Those are the words of the Minister and I wish to highlight them because there has been a lot of talk about words and how much they matter, but so too do actions. We can see actions and the breadth of what has been happening in his Department in recent years.

I have questions on local government, Irish Water and housing. As regards local government, it is great to see additional funding going in to support local authorities. It has been a very difficult time. How much funding is there for extra resources for housing delivery and planning permissions? We spoke about additional resources going into each local authority. South Dublin County Council, the local authority in my area, was due to get such resources. It is a little off topic, but does the Minister have any information on recruitment in that regard? A number of local authorities that appeared before the committee spoke about the difficulty in retaining and attracting talent.

My next question also relates to local government. It is probably a little premature - excuse the pun - for this year, but is there provision for maternity leave for councillors for this year or will that be provided for in the 2023 budget? If the Minister has that figure, I would be interested to see it.

It is great to see funding provided in respect of rising energy costs, which are a significant challenge facing local authorities across the country. Does that funding to assist with rising energy costs relate to council-specific public buildings, given that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has already announced funding for sports clubs, community centres and parish halls?

As regards Irish Water and the capital expenditure project for a new Dublin reservoir in Saggart, is additional funding provided for that project in the Revised Estimates? If so, is that to combat cost increases?

On housing, it is good to hear that the Department has such a strong pipeline for delivery of housing for the end of the year. It is often the case that there is a rush to complete projects and get things finalised towards the end of the year. The fact that there is such a strong delivery forecast is very welcome. I appreciate that the Minister cannot give too many more details, but any additional information he can provide on that would be very comforting to hear.

The capital acquisition scheme funding that is going into approved housing bodies, AHBs, is very welcome. I presume it will concentrate primarily on social housing. Is there anything there in terms of cost rental? I will take the opportunity to speak on affordable housing. For my constituents in Dublin Mid-West, the young couples and individuals whom I represent in Lucan, Clondalkin, Palmerstown and other villages, affordable housing is where it is at. They want to see what the pipeline is in our local area because they want to be able to purchase there. I know that is something to which the Minister and the Government are committed. I ask him to outline what is in that for those constituents of mine.

I thank the Deputy for her kind words, her support and the work she does daily. I will first deal with the questions on the resource side. We improved on the social housing staff by 250. That is within all our housing teams across the country. As of the end of September, 180 of those posts were filled. The jobs market is very hot at present, which is a good thing, in that we are nearing full employment. There have been challenges filling those positions but they are additional posts; they are not back-filling. As regards affordable housing, I have initially approved 69 new posts across local authorities to deliver affordable housing. That is currently in train. That approval was given eight or ten weeks ago and the local authorities are working it through. Some of them have people in place already. I will revert to the Deputy with a progress update. As more affordable homes are delivered, we will add to that number of staff based on where there is demand and need.

I will revert to the Deputy on the project in Saggart. She has raised it with me previously.

On cost rental and affordable, we made significant changes to the cost rental equity loan, CREL, and its structure, which have already seen us get in new cost rental schemes. Members may have seen such a scheme this week in Delgany, County Wicklow. It is the first Land Development Agency, LDA, cost rental scheme in place. I want to see more. I want to see local authorities doing advance purchase too, for affordable housing. There are specific opportunities for that to be done.

In terms of what we are doing right now, particularly in urban areas, this is managed by the LDA through Project Tosaigh. It has been engaging on the ground in respect of unactivated planning permissions or permissions that may have stalled - jobs that were going to happen but are not currently proceeding. We will seek to activate them, with a big focus on affordable. Members will also see that happening in south Dublin. I mentioned to Deputy Flaherty earlier that under the affordable housing fund we have approved approximately 30 schemes already, with approximately 2,000 homes in train. We will see the first of them in this year. That fund does not deal with the first home scheme or cost rental. I would like it to be quicker but we are progressing the activation of existing planning permissions for affordable housing. Obviously social housing falls within that too, but there is a focus on affordable housing. There is a real opportunity for us to do that, particularly given the significant exit, not just in Ireland but across Europe, of private rented sector, PRS, investment in build to rent. There are opportunities for us to build cost rental and affordable purchase. That is what we are looking at doing. We have been out there. We have had a lot of interest and engagement with the sector on that.

As regards maternity leave, I brought a Bill to Cabinet on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, and got approval for maternity leave for councillors, which is really important. They will be able to co-opt a person to take their place for the period. The Bill also deals with ill health, paternity leave, adoption and so on. I know we will get support from across the House on the Bill. I expect it to come in during quarter 1. Any changes will take effect from next year. We have engaged with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to ensure it also covers people who are in same-sex relationships. It does not just provide for maternity leave; it also provides for paternity leave, adoption leave and other circumstances. It will be flexible. We need to ensure, particularly for women, that we have a working environment for councillors that is family friendly. Only 24% of councillors are women. We need to do far better than that.

As regards rising energy costs, that relates to local authorities' facilities. Basically, it is local authority-owned buildings, as well as fuel for council vehicles and so on. Those allocations have just been sent out to the local authorities. It is €60 million. For the information of the committee, as a result of rate appeals and the global rate revaluation, local authorities across the country were down approximately €23 million. We are going to fill that gap for them. That relates to the big utilities, such as the ESB, Irish Water and so on. I am a firm believer in local government, as is every Deputy present.

Particularly at a difficult time with energy costs etc., we need to ensure they can continue the services they are providing. Those allocations have been made.

The Deputy made a very good point about the strong delivery for quarter 4. While that is a good thing and historically we have always had strong delivery in quarter 4, I would like to move to a more phased model of delivery. In any year there are risks with so much delivery in quarter 4. This year because of what happened in March, April and May with the supply chain, I do not think anything could have been done. Some sites stopped because of inflation. The work done on the inflation framework got them back going. Particularly for larger schemes, I would like to see the handover take place in phases to reduce the risk for any schemes moving into the next year.

I thank the Minister for that. I agree with what he said and having a better cycle of planning. It should not always be a rush to finish towards the end of quarter 4, which is too high a risk. However, I suppose that is the nature of doing business. As the Minister said, this year we had an unprecedented situation where we were playing catch-up after the Covid pandemic and we were then hit with the issue of inflation on top of the supply chain issues. Given that, I believe there would always have been a rush to complete by quarter 4. I just wish all the projects that are trying to complete by the end of quarter 4 the very best of luck in doing so because the work they are doing on building sites is so important for the families who need those homes.

I congratulate the Minister on his work and his delivery based on his remit. I know it is very difficult. There are numerous crises facing him and we are all fighting perfect storms.

The Minister spoke about speed of delivery. I know timber frame houses have a superior procurement rate compared with conventional methods. I was at a conference yesterday where it was stated that up to 50% of homes at the moment are being built from timber frame. It is great to hear we have reached that rate in such a short time. As the Minister knows, there is a logjam with apartments generally, but there is probably a bigger logjam with timber apartments and the use of mass timber. They are being built all over the world, providing many benefits, not least cost.

There is a major problem in the context of fire risk. Part B of our building regulations have a clause, which I believe was introduced in the original regulations in 1983, prohibiting the use of timber in buildings. We have moved on a long way since then. I know a review of the fire regulations is coming up. I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say that because it is far quicker to build with those materials as has been proven across the planet.

In the context of speed of delivery, density and cost, the section 28 review of densities provides an opportunity to increase densities in urban areas similar to existing densities in areas such as Stoneybatter and Portobello. I know it is not exactly that model but there are very high densities for inner city living. There is also St. Patrick's in Cork. While we need to build correctly and plan correctly, the review of that and getting our densities correct will reduce the cost to the purchaser. While now might not be the right time, I would appreciate if the Minister could speak about the Part B review and section 28.

There is also the climate plan and embodied carbon. I know we have talked about that measurement here. If that comes in, it will facilitate and educate the industry to understand where savings can be made. In the short term, that will be through timber as it is faster to build with that material. We have a lot of timber coming online in this country which needs to be used.

Deputy Joe Flaherty took the Chair.

I thank Deputy Duffy for his work and for his support. The last figure I saw for timber frame delivery in both public and private was about 48%. However, we are behind that on the social housing side. I have seen it in Limerick. Off-site construction is being used really well by Limerick City and County Council, particularly for infill sites in Moyross, which I have seen. It is also being used in other areas around the country. The sector is ramping up to do this. I believe there are real opportunities for us to deliver much more, more quickly and more efficiently. It is also better for our climate. Housing for All commits us to an increased use there.

We are developing a procurement roadmap for local authorities. Where appropriate, we want them to focus on modern methods of construction. Some of the bigger firms are also moving into that. We are getting building scale and building capacity in Ireland with regard to domestic producers. I have visited many of the sites. The Housing Agency will have a specific role in supporting the increased use of modern methods of construction.

Also important is the opening of the construction technology centre. We see much good practice throughout the country. Some areas are doing things very well and other areas need to be supported. Some builders are doing things differently but there is no centre for that best practice to be shared. We can do much more in that space. We are seeing it in the private sector with more and more off-site timber frame construction. I live in a timber frame house, which was built in 2006. Things have moved on greatly since then. We have the capacity to do more in that space.

Regarding section 28 and the density guidelines, we are concluding the work on that now. I expect we will get the draft design guidelines issued soon. They also need to go out for public consultation. There may be opportunities for better designs particularly in densified developments which can drive affordability in some instances but make better places for people to live and better design concepts. I imagine it will come out in the coming weeks. I do not want to put it out over Christmas because I would be accused of putting it out when there is a holiday break. If it is ready very shortly, we will put it out in advance of that and if not, I will hold it off until January to make sure that people have the time and space to feed into that process.

We will focus strongly on modern methods of construction. I mentioned it with regard to the new land activation measures. In those ones in particular, we will be charging our local authorities to look at the use of off-site construction, not just modular. I have seen good steel frame off-site construction as well as timber frame. We have a way to go on that. It is improving overall; as I said, 48% was the last figure I recall. We need to do more on the social housing side.

Part B has a clause. I cannot remember what it is called. It sounds like a jig or a dance - 3.2.4.8 or something like that. It is really prohibitive in that people are not allowed to use cross-laminated timber, CLT.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe resumed the Chair.

The Deputy raised that and I meant to respond. That is being assessed. As he knows there is a very stringent standard procedure to be followed to get certification for use. In most European countries CLT is being used. We are restricted to a certain height with what we can use. I recently received a presentation on CLT. I have asked my officials to work with the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, to try to expedite that. It is better for our environment. It is more efficient. It is used elsewhere. We can see multistorey blocks being built using CLT and I would like us to do that.

The certification process is obviously independent of me. That needs to be done, but it is in train. That is included in the review of fire safety regulations, which particularly focuses on the use of existing above-shop stock. I hope to be able to introduce that before the end of the year. A stakeholder group has been meeting for more than 12 months. I expect the draft to come to me shortly. Obviously, the committee will have input into that. That will also be put out for public consultation. It can clarify what can be done and look for improvements in that space, particularly when using vacant stock or above-shop units and how those conversions within cities can happen. The work on that is coming to conclusion. It is a very important piece of work.

We have been trying to address the issue of vacancy. Some local authorities are doing it very well through repair and lease, buy and renew. We have the Croí Cónaithe vacancy grant which has received considerable interest.

We have already had a great deal of interest in it and received hundreds of applications. The purpose of it is to help homeowners to take vacant units back into stock. We have expanded the programme to include bringing units back not only into our towns and villages but also our cities and rural areas. The best homes we can use from a climate and carbon perspective are those that exist already.

The Deputy knows this. We are very much focused on this approach as a way of accelerating delivery.

Is the review of part B going out to public consultation? Will that be in the New Year as well?

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming in. It would be useful if the Minister came before the committee more often in order to give updates on Housing for All. I ask him to consider doing so. We do not see him at this committee very often. Such engagement would be positive. How many local authority new-build homes were meant to be delivered this year?

For the delivery of new social homes this year, we have a target of 9,000 new builds. There is a split between local authority direct builds and AHB delivery. There is a higher AHB delivery of 50% in Cork and Dublin.

How many new-build local authority homes will there be?

It is split per county. It is detailed-----

Yes, but what is the national figure?

The national figure is not quite 50% on each. In Dublin and Cork, it is 50% delivery. The split is about 42% to 44%. What I find-----

Does the Minister have the number for new-build local authority houses?

I will get the specific number for the Deputy in order that we are not accused of giving incorrect information. The overall target, and this is important, of new builds is 9,000 for this year, and 10,500 overall.

The distinction that is-----

I have a follow-up question.

To conclude on this question, the distinction that continues to be made by some people is between homes built by local authorities and those built by AHBs. From meeting with residents who get new homes, I know they are delighted to have well-built and secure new homes. Much AHB delivery is on local authority land, as the Deputy knows.

I will move on to the €337 million allocated in respect of delivering new-build local authority homes this year. That money is not now going to be spent on this endeavour. Some €237 million is being transferred out, and €100 million is going to be used to pay down loans. As a result of this money not being spent on new-build local authority homes, how many local authority homes will leave us short of? I am asking for a ballpark figure in the context of the Revised Estimates.

I understand the Deputy's question. To be clear, the targets for local authorities represent one target for delivery of local authority homes. There is one target for new builds. This is what the local authorities are given. If they partner with AHBs, and other Deputies have said that the CAS model of funding works well, then this should be done. We must look at all methods for delivering homes. We will have strong delivery in the fourth quarter of this year. I cannot predict what the final figure will be. If I gave the Deputy a figure and the actual figure turned out to be more or less, then I could be accused of giving incorrect information to the committee. Suffice to say that delivery in the fourth quarter will be strong. I expect us to attain our overall target of 10,500 new social homes this year.

I thank the Minister, but I am not asking him to give me the exact figure in respect of final delivery. In the context of these Revised Estimates, I am asking what will be the impact of the €227 million being taken out of the local authority new-build homes heading and the €100 million being used to pay down loans. I am asking about the approximate number of homes we will be down as a result of this €337 million that was initially supposed to be spent on building those homes not being spent. I am not asking for a final figure for delivery; I am just asking what the impact will be of removing this €337 million allocated under this heading that was meant to be spent on building homes.

The Deputy is asking this question in isolation. He is not looking at the increase in funding we are allocating to CAS.

No, I am going to ask the Minister a question on that topic in a moment.

The Deputy might let me answer this question first. I am not going to speculate as to what the final figure will be in this regard because delivery in quarter 4 will be very strong. I have been clear about this aspect. We are ensuring that any of the moneys not spent on specific housing projects this year will be put towards the activation of housing projects next year. I refer, for example, to the two land initiatives I mentioned, which have been called for some time.

I would like to come in there. This is my time as well.

Yes, of course. I am just trying to answer-----

Yes, I know, but the Minister is not answering the question I asked him. I am not asking him to speculate on delivery. In terms of the Revised Estimates, which is what we are here to discuss, what will be the impact of this €337 million not being spent under that heading? That is what I am asking the Minister. When we look at the figures for new-build local authority homes in Dublin in the first half of the year and drill down into them, we can see that there were zero new builds across the four local authority areas. That is disappointing.

I would like to answer the question.

I have asked the Minister several times about what will be the impact of the €337 million being removed.

The Deputy is trying to make a distinction between one type of social home and another.

The Deputy will also be aware that for some local authorities, particularly those in urban areas, it makes absolute sense to provide social homes and public housing on private land. It also makes sense to partner with AHBs to deliver homes faster in certain areas. The Deputy keeps coming back to this idea - and it might attract good headlines - that there is a local authority that has not built one social home in the year to date. What I will ask the Deputy to do is to look at the facts at the end of the year. I will be quite happy to answer these questions when we see the actual end-of-year figures for the delivery of social homes to families by AHBs and local authorities. The Deputy continues to try to make a distinction between both of these approaches and I am curious as to why he wishes to do this.

I am not. I am asking the Minister specific questions about this heading in the Revised Estimates that he has brought to this committee.

I am trying to answer these questions.

Well, this is about the Revised Estimates. I am asking the Minister about heading A3. He can choose not to give a direct answer on this topic if he wishes, but it is a legitimate question.

Turning to CAS funding and the 600 homes under that heading, this is a welcome development. It will bring us back up to the level of investment in this programme that we had in 2011. Almost 600 homes were delivered that year under CAS, and that was when we were not spending much on housing and social housing because of the economic climate that obtained. Regarding these 600 homes, and I am not asking the Minister to give me exact figures concerning the final delivery, what is the breakdown in rough terms between building and acquisition? What is the split between these 600 houses? I am referring to the additional spending-----

I do not want to be accused of being evasive, so, as best as is possible, we will get the breakdown for the Deputy. Earlier, I outlined the make-up of these 600 units across different types of delivery, such as housing for seniors and those with disabilities. We will, therefore, as best as possible, get the information on this split for the Deputy.

In terms of the additional funding for CAS, will that be on the basis of the existing split this year or will there be a difference? Will more of the funding go on building or on acquisition?

As already stated, the funding in question is very much focused on what we have been requested to provide, through the sector, in the context of additional homes this year. Some of these requests do relate to advanced purchase or nearer-term delivery on some sites where we are getting some units in sooner and we wish to pay for this year. As a result, some of these homes will be purchased in advance through arrangements and opportunities that will present themselves through our partners in the AHB sector. It is a specific allocation to target that number of homes. As I told the Deputy, I am quite happy to give him the breakdown of these details, not per area but by housing type, and also the split according to the different types of housing that will be provided. I have also stated that this will enable us, through the increased funding, to look at another 1,000 units into next year in this delivery stream through CAS.

I thank the Minister. On the LPT, as the Minister will be aware, there is a specific issue in some local authorities concerning their funding model and the baselines. Households that have paid a lot more in property tax expect to see better services. People are not necessarily seeing those better services being provided by their local authorities because while the funding available to those authorities has increased through the receipt of greater LPT revenues, grants and other funding from central government have been withdrawn. The baselines have not been updated in several years. Given the growth in population, this puts some local authorities at a disadvantage in comparison with others. Will these baselines be updated? What is happening in this regard?

The baseline review was delayed because the data from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, was delayed, as was that from the Revenue Commissioners.

The LPT baseline review has been commenced. What we have done for 2023 is ensure that no local authority loses out in any way, shape or form. I have given detail, particularly around the form LPT2.

The baseline review has commenced and will be worked through. We would expect that the baseline review would be concluded in quarter 2 of 2023 which will give ample time for budget preparation for local authority budgets in 2023 for the following year. We aim to conclude the baseline by the end of Q2 2023.

Is the Minister confident that issue should be resolved for 2024 and the local authorities that are disadvantaged in terms of subvention will no longer be?

I am. The local property tax is an important stream of income for the local authorities. It amounts to €475 million. There are those who would dispense with that and seek to have central grants from Government instead.

I am confident. The baseline review needs to be done and it is being done. It has been commenced.

We are over time.

From that comment, I wonder is the Minister not aware of the issue of local authorities that generate revenue from local property tax but have had funding from central government moved from them, putting them at a disadvantage compared to other local authorities.

We are over time. We might come back to it.

In particular, some of the local authorities in the Dublin area are disadvantaged in that way. That needs to be addressed.

To the other capital, I call Deputy Gould.

I thank the Minister for being here today. It is important that we can ask questions and go through the Estimates. Sometimes when we are in the Dáil Chamber, it can be adversarial. When we are here in committee, we at least have time. Normally, I might get a two-or-three-minute slot in the Dáil Chamber and I am trying to fit issues in whereas at least here now we have ten minutes.

We would like to see more of the Minister. The more work we can do together in relation to housing, the better. We have some good solutions right across the board in the Opposition and we would look for the Minister to give us a fair hearing. We believe working together we have to sort out this emergency.

What I would ask is that the Minister give a commitment today - assuming Deputy Darragh O'Brien will be the Minister after the change in Taoiseach and, if not, his successor - to come in in January to go through the quarter 4 figures because the Minister is saying here that there will be a lot delivered in quarter 4 and I would like to discuss that with him when we have the whole year figures in the new year. Would the Minister give that commitment?

I am always happy to engage, if the committee sets its schedule for quarter 1 next year. In fairness, it would be useful when we have concluded this year and collated the 2022 delivery figures. I would be quite happy to come into committee, if I am still in Cabinet. I may not be. Who knows? Maybe Deputy Gould knows.

The Minister has given a commitment to come in if he is in Cabinet.

The committee schedules its business.

We will discuss that at our private meeting on Monday next.

I am open to that. It would be useful that we could go through the final delivery of social housing, in particular, the different types of streams within it and the different types of programmes we have delivered.

I have a few questions on the land legacy loans that the Minister has provided €100 million for. In my time on Cork City Council, that was a big issue for us. Cork City Council had built up substantial debts. They had purchased properties before the financial crash. For years, they were only paying interest on these land debts and then they had to pay capital. The issue here is if one writes off these loans where local authorities have built affordable houses on those lands, will they be able to revalue down the cost of these homes? Affordable homes are much more expensive in Cork than in most areas nationally and the reason for that is they have these land loans. If Cork City Council can draw down these land loans, can it then reduce the price of its affordable housing to make it affordable because at present the affordable houses of Cork are not affordable?

I would not necessarily agree with the Deputy's last comment. What we are looking for on this is that we write down the debts on specific sites for the delivery of affordable and social housing. These are on sites that are delivered already. The Deputy is correct that it will help in the viability of those.

Obviously, the first piece we want to look at is the social housing piece to make sure that we are activating those sites. There are some very good sites out there - the Deputy referenced Cork - right across the country that, because they hold a legacy debt, they have not been able to develop them out. We will work that through. Based on the Estimate being passed, we can move towards that reallocation. We will work with the local authorities on seeing which sites we can develop and they are the ones I will focus on.

Does the Minister have a figure for the total legacy debt on the land that local authorities are holding?

I mentioned it earlier on. By way of approximation, it is on or about €300 million. That is what we are looking at in that space. The Deputy should not hold me exactly to that. That is an approximation.

The Minister has €100 million put forward this year. Is that something that will be rolled out over the next two or three years to remove that legacy debt?

We already last year moved on the debt around unsold affordables quite significantly. We funded local government to levels that it has not been funded previously.

The Deputy's question is a good one. If one looks at the €300 million that is there, to give the Deputy a sense of it, perhaps one third of that relates to land that would be difficult to develop. I discussed this with the Deputy's colleague earlier on before Deputy Gould came in. It might not be developable land. I want to use resources that we have such as this to write down debt so that we can build homes on those lands.

When I was on Cork City Council, it was paying, let us say, on €100,000, what started off at €7,000 and rose over the years because it was originally interest-only repayment and then the local authority had to pay capital. It could have been the bones of €1 million. Other local authorities must be in the same position. It goes back to a point Deputy Cian O'Callaghan made earlier in relation to local property tax. The Minister is taking hundreds of thousands of euro out of the finances of local authorities to pay interest or debts on land they were told to purchase by central government and that they are sitting on now. That money should be spent on parks, public roads, public lighting and pedestrian crossings. I will put it this way. I was a councillor in 2009 and no traffic calming measures went into local authority estates unless the funding came nationally. That is 13 years. There must be 20 or 30 areas in my constituency that have been waiting on traffic calming measures. With the local authority, there is underfunding. That same local authority has paid the bones of hundreds of thousands of euro on debt on land that it was told to purchase by central government.

First, in fairness, the Deputy accepted - I am not making this as a political point - the step towards €100 million to develop sites and reduce that debt is significant and is welcomed by local authorities.

We will work with the sector to resolve sites that are not suitable for housing. That is something that we will do, potentially, through the Housing Finance Agency, as well. We have seen the number of interest-only loans significantly reduce but there is still a burden there. I acknowledge that.

The local property tax is an important stream of funding for local government. For those who want to abolish it, it is difficult if one wants to abolish local property tax to come in and say that we are not getting enough local property tax. I am a little confused about the point that the Deputy is trying to make.

The problem with that is the Government brought in the local property tax and then slashed the block grants. In fact, local authorities were worse off with the local property tax. For example, one area I represent is Kerry Pike. It is a lovely little village in Cork North-Central. It is five minutes from Apple Computers. The village doubled in size with development and until recently, it had no public lighting and footpaths on one side of the road only. It had 99% compliance with the local property tax but the local property tax, because of paying back loans, has never gone in. That is because block grants were cut.

I will go on to a different issue because I am conscious of my time. An issue that I and my party have been raising is the derelict sites levy, the collection of it and the millions of euro that are outstanding.

Representatives of local authorities have appeared before this committee recently. We have had the four Dublin local authorities, Galway City Council, Limerick City and County Council, Waterford City and County Council, Cork City Council, and last week we had Kildare County Council and Meath County Council. Some local authorities do not collect a cent. The Derelict Sites Act is in existence 32 years yet I think 13 local authorities do not collect a cent while others do not even put sites on the register. The levy should be collected by Revenue. One of my Bills is in the lottery for legislation. What we want to do is force local authorities to act and, if not, they must answer to the Minister. At the moment there are homes where people could be housed, especially as we are in the middle of a housing crisis but local authorities are not putting sites on the register so no levy. I believe this is money that should go towards housing and getting houses back onstream. Is there anything the Minister can do in the Estimates or by himself to encourage local authorities to do their job? It is outrageous that the Derelict Sites Act is 32 years old.

I think that all of us would agree the scheme for the derelict sites levy, and the collection of the levy, does not work to the level it should. As Deputies will know, we will bring forward a vacant property tax, which is important particularly for vacant properties. We have also changed the repair and lease scheme to make it easier to bring vacant and many derelict-----

The problem with the new vacant homes tax is that it is only equivalent to 0.3% because it is tied to the local property tax, which is not enough to act as a deterrent.

I am thankful we have seen, over the past number of years, that while vacancy and dereliction is too high it is reducing, and reducing substantially year on year.

There were 419 applications for Croí Cónaithe towns and only 66 were delivered. There was huge fanfare when the scheme was announced. I got the number of units delivered in a response to a parliamentary question I tabled this week.

It is a brand new scheme.

Only 66 homes delivered.

The Deputy wants the scheme to be expanded yet his colleague who is sat beside him wants to abolish the scheme. I suggest his party makes its mind up.

With only 66 homes the scheme might as well not exist.

The scheme opened in August and I know the Deputy would like the scheme to fail.

I referred to the Croí Cónaithe towns.

I know the Deputy would like the scheme to fail but it will not and will be a great hit.

The information was supplied in a response to my parliamentary question.

There are other schemes such as the buy and renew scheme, which we need to move on, and the repair and release scheme. There is also using a compulsory purchase order, CPO, on vacant properties.

I support the Minister on the latter.

The Croí Cónaithe scheme has been extended to include rural homes, towns, villages and cities. There has been incredible interest shown in the scheme and very strong applications through it. The scheme is new and will work. I can come back to the Deputy about the scheme in quarter 1 next year, if I am still in this job.

I would love to discuss the scheme with the Deputy next year but maybe he will have changed his mind by that stage.

My party will definitely support the Minister's plans for using CPOs.

Perhaps the Deputy would talk to Deputy Ó Broin.

We will move on to my slot. I thank the Minister for attending.

Our debate on the Estimates is an important opportunity for us to ask the Minister about the way resources are allocated and discuss the priorities, etc. of the Department. If he viewed the work of this committee over the past six weeks he will have seen our discussions with numerous local authorities on the implementation of Housing for All. I must say it has been very impressive to see the pipeline of public housing that is being delivered. I have yet to see a local authority use all of the tools that are available. I believe some of them feel that some tools do not suit them, with which I disagree and particularly the cost-rental model. I encourage the Minister, as he meets the chief executive of each authority, to recommend that each local authority use all of the tools he has put in their toolbox which are affordable purchase, cost rental, social housing, the schemes to combat derelict sites, and the Croí Cónaithe towns being extended into cities.

On Croí Cónaithe, does the Minister believe the Estimates reflect the new eligibility criteria for Croí Cónaithe towns for city areas, like Finglas and Santry, to allow derelict sites to be overturned? Does he expect an increase in demand as a result of extending eligibility?

The Vice Chairman has asked good questions. The Croí Cónaithe scheme could be an important vehicle for us to bring a lot of derelict and vacant properties back into use. The scheme is already taking hold. Croí Cónaithe was launched on 8 August and in the past two weeks we have expanded the scheme to rural homes and cities. Vacancies are a scourge and we need to tackle the issue. I would like to see the scheme fully subscribed. I give a commitment to the committee that when, and if, Croí Cónaithe is fully subscribed we will allocate further funds and continue to work through things. We have tried to keep the grant very simple and focused on homebuyers. The scheme has already yielded results. I believe the scheme will work very successfully across the country be that in a city or town. I assure the committee that if the scheme is fully subscribed we will increase the funding available in the Estimates for next year.

Do local authorities have a role to play in promoting the scheme? I ask because often it is the local authorities that are the first to hear complaints that a property is derelict or receive requests for a property to be listed as derelict in accordance with the Derelict Sites Act. Does the Minister think it would be helpful if local authorities conducted a publicity campaign to promote the scheme?

Let us consider all of the things we have discussed here today. The Vice Chairman made a very good point in his opening remarks that the representatives of the local authorities, in their contributions here, all focused on housing delivery but perhaps not all of them use every tool that is available to them right now. We have got to support them to use all of the tools because they do a lot of work across all of the services they provide but housing is a key priority. Local authorities are the housing authorities in each of the 31 areas. Yes, we will advertise Croí Cónaithe more strongly. We launched it and uptake has been really good without a full national advertising campaign. I was conscious of ensuring that local authorities have the resources to process applications. It is a pretty simple, straightforward application and process, which has been managed by local authorities. Every local authority I have been to has received applications and are processing them.

I referenced cost rental. The Minister was in my constituency. On that occasion we visited different sites in Finglas and Ballymun. I know of 25 publicly-owned sites that have public projects on them, either a small infill or right up to larger sites. While all of them include things like senior citizens, for example, there is affordable purchase by Ó Cualann and Dublin City Council, and there is social housing but I have yet to see a cost-rental scheme in my constituency. I fear there is a perception that cost rental is not needed in certain parts of the city. It is important that the people who are above the eligibility criteria for social housing have access to a tool to be able to rent public housing long term exactly like somebody who is below the arbitrary threshold. I believe that cost rental is really important and we need to push the ambition of councils, and AHBs, to deliver them in every part of Dublin city, not just in those areas where they believe rents are high or people have a better income or whatever. My view is that places like Ballymun and Finglas deserve cost rentals as much as anywhere else.

I agree with the Vice Chairman. We are working on quite a substantial cost-rental scheme in Ballymun at the moment. We have made changes to the cost rental equity loan, CREL, which underpins cost rental. That was done at the request of AHBs as well. I would like local authorities to do cost rental directly. We have opportunities to do that because the funding model is even more advantageous to local authorities because their cost of finance is lower than it is for approved housing bodies. I have changed CREL to 45% and we are allowing upfront costs. That initiative has improved the viability of cost rental and brought in further schemes in the past few weeks since we made those changes. We are at an advanced stage with a substantial cost-rental scheme in Ballymun. I know the Vice Chairman has been very supportive of the scheme. I want to see cost rentals. I think all of us agree we need to see more cost rental right across the board. We have been flexible with how the scheme works so there are real opportunities for the scheme to deliver more. This week, the Land Development Agency advertised its first cost-rental homes for tenants in Delgany, County Wicklow, which is a tenure that did not exist in real terms 12 months ago. We need to build up capacity.

I am sure the Minister is familiar with the location of the Ballymun shopping centre site right on the Metro line.

It is an attractive site in terms of potential to add to the community. Dublin City Council currently has that out for expressions of interest to see if a retail-led project can be delivered on that site. My view is it will also have to include housing. With interest rates increasing, there will be some concern that there will not be capacity to build on the development side. If that is the case, would the Minister consider having the Land Development Agency step in to deal with the site? If a site the size of the shopping centre were to lie empty for another ten years, it would be a failure to the people of Ballymun. It would also be a huge missed opportunity to deliver the housing that we need.

When we came into Government the LDA existed and was not just a concept. It had done some good work on master-planning and planning other sites. I wanted to bring those from the planning and concept stages into actual delivery of homes. We saw the first of them - in Mallow, County Cork, and Shanganagh Castle - break ground over the past few weeks. Work is also starting on St. Kevin’s in Cork. The LDA is expanding its remit throughout the country looking at sites. It has a role with local authorities. Whether it takes a site over or not, it is able to master-plan sites and bring them out to the market to seek both public and private finance to deliver them. I know the Ballymun Shopping Centre site very well, having visited it with the Vice Chairman. There are some opportunities for us to deliver. The LDA is fully tooled up now. It is established and underpinned by legislation and is also being capitalised. It has entered into contracts worth almost €600 million this year alone.

That is certainly welcome. We need to keep working on those derelict and potential sites in all parts of the city. We cannot leave it to local authorities to identify these sites. There is great pressure from communities to have positive developments, and that is the case in Ballymun.

I will return to the issue of local authority finance. This week, I met Kathy Quinn, Dublin City Council's head of finance, Councillor Séamus McGrattan, Councillor Daryl Barron and many others from Dublin City Council who want to have a better relationship in regard to local government funding. In what was a positive contribution. They said they just want more transparency. Few people understand local authority funding. I was on the council for ten years and it is tricky to understand. The baseline mentioned by Deputy Cian O'Callaghan is important. Abolition of the equalisation fund was welcome but local authorities that are self-funding are not able to keep 100% of the property tax that is raised. That is a difficulty because that line is used consistently. They are not able to keep it all because they would lose out on other funds on the basis of having exceeded their baseline for self-funding. This should be addressed it if the local property tax is to mean something. I agree with the Minister's criticism of some parties about calling for the abolition of property tax and then giving out that it is not bringing in more. It amounted to €1.2 billion for Dublin City Council this year. That is one of the biggest budgets it ever had and it was a huge support in the last three years. The point is we have to review the baseline so that 100% of property tax is retained in the local authority area.

I mentioned earlier that the baseline review has commenced. It was delayed by Covid-19 and there was a delay with the CSO data. We expect to conclude the work on the baseline review in quarter 2 next year. That will provide the requisite clarity that many local authority members are seeking. We will be focused on that. The important issue then is that it is self-funding and is spent in the local area and local representatives can be clear on it. I am a firm believer of local government. I have always supported it. This is a new tax-----

I must keep the Minister to time as that was my contribution. I call Deputy Higgins.

Apologies for nipping out. I was at a meeting of the Committee on Public Petitions next door which is discussing thatched roofs. That is relevant here because we want to make sure that heritage buildings do not become derelict sites or vacant buildings. That has much to do with what we have been talking about over the past hours.

The extension to Dublin of Croí Cónaithe is a welcome move. I am glad that so many of my constituents will be able to avail of the scheme and we will be see derelict properties put back into use, unlocked and made into people’s homes. That funding has been well received. It is part of an overall package of €5.9 billion, a massive amount of money for a Department. I am keen to understand what that level of funding and investment looks like in communities throughout our country. In my own area most of the funding for my local authority comes through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We can see investment South Dublin County Council and the Department are making in my communities. We see housing projects, cranes and diggers on site and hard hats. We know that voids are being turned around, social housing projects are under construction and discounted homes such as those in Kilcarbery are coming on stream. In Lucan, where I live, we have two new parks. One is under construction and the other was opened by the Minister in the past 12 months. Both of these parks were funded under the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF. There is expenditure on planned community centres, for example, in Saggart where construction is under way. A 40 million l reservoir in my area will serve communities throughout Dublin, making sure they have access to reliable, clean drinking water. There are new playgrounds and teen spaces being opened in Griffeen Valley Park and north Clondalkin. Our villages and businesses are being invested in, with grants for shop fronts. On a national scale, what is €5.9 billion going to deliver for people throughout Ireland?

The Deputy mentioned a few of the initiatives. We are seeing the URDF take hold throughout the country. We would like to see more of the fund used and we will do a review of it. We are seeing improvements in our cities and towns throughout the country. We will have another call on the fund too.

The overall capital in this sphere of the Department will deliver a step change in housing delivery in particular. We need the State to lead by example. We see homes being built. Every Deputy visits new housing estates and sees the quality of the homes that are being built. We need more of them. We need to accelerate that delivery and we need more affordable housing delivery. The strength of having a multi-annual plan is that we are able to set down targets, which I would like to exceed, for different types of housing, whether social, affordable or private. We are playing catch-up in some areas. In other areas, the water capital programme is accelerating with Irish Water. The move towards a publicly-owned single utility is important too. I will use the opportunity to say that we have engaged substantially and extensively on this matter with unions and management in the local government sector. I am hopeful we will be able to conclude that work so that people are secure in their jobs and Irish Water has one delivery stream as a publicly-owned utility. We will then move towards the referendum on water, to which we gave a commitment, and the referendum on housing, which will also be important.

With all the different delivery streams, the issue is one of building capacity. We need to build more capacity within the local government sector, and we are doing that, but also within the construction sector, full stop. We have 20,000 more workers in construction than we had pre-pandemic. That is good but we need more. All of us understand that we must scale up our delivery. That can be done in two ways or by a combination of them. The first is by being more efficient and using more modern methods of construction and the second is by having the physical capacity for people to do the work. The capital investment gives that certainty and security that the State is the major player in the delivery of housing, both affordable and social.

When the Minister talks about the State as being the major player in social and affordable housing, given the capital investment that we have already put on the table, there is a real opportunity for the State to provide comfort to developers building out existing planning permissions. There is a huge number of undeveloped planning permissions nationally and half of them are in Dublin. The reason for that is partly because developers feel they do not have certainty that people will purchase at the end of the process.

As a Government, we need to do more to inject confidence back into that sector. We need people to build and to do so at scale. Most important, the Government needs to make sure those homes are going to cater for a mix of people, including first-time buyers, people on council waiting lists for social housing, and people who will need to avail of an affordable housing scheme. That has to be our priority. The Minister might like to comment on what the plans for next year could be in that regard. It is great to see the pipeline for this year and such a strong pipeline for the end of quarter 4, but the impetus has to continue. We need to make sure, as the Minister said, that we are not just hitting but exceeding our targets. I am particularly talking about the affordable housing targets, which is an issue that comes up at my constituency office again and again.

The provision of affordable homes is very important. We will deliver affordable homes this year for the first time in many years, although not enough. We need to do more. Next year will be challenging, by the way. I do not want to leave anyone in any doubt. Increased interest rates, increased rates in funding and development finance and, in particular, inflation provide risk into next year. Having said that, the Deputy makes a very good point. We are now endeavouring, through the LDA and the Housing Agency, to see where we can partner with private development to deliver affordable homes, in particular, social homes and to give some certainty there. It is not just specifically for the sector. It is also to ensure we do not see a fall-off in delivery.

On affordable delivery, we have the first home scheme, which the Deputy has been a very strong advocate for. I know others do not believe it is something that should be in place. That is fine and I respect people's views. We already have issued 760 or 780 approval certificates under that scheme. Many of those are for people who are renting and had mortgage approval, but had a gap. We were able to fill that gap. Most of those people are first-time buyers. They have got to a stage where the State will be able to step in and help them by taking on equity. I see great potential in that to deliver hundreds or thousands of additional homes.

I would like to see more efficiencies in the delivery of advance-purchase affordable homes. We are getting that. It is starting to happen now.

I mentioned to the Chair that there is a real opportunity for further expansion of cost rental. That is something that has been extremely popular and every scheme has been greatly oversubscribed. There is certainly an appetite for safe, secure, State-backed, affordable rents. We will use every lever available to get all these schemes working to their optimum in order to deliver the affordable, social and private homes we need.

I am interested in what the Minister has said about the advance-purchase affordable homes. That is how we activate unused sites that have planning permission, which is something we must do.

The Minister mentioned the shared equity scheme. The local authority area in which I live accounts for approximately 10% of the figure he just gave for people who have applied and been approved for this scheme. It will help such people to own their first home. That is a very big deal for those people in my constituency. I did quite a lot of information sessions on this in my area. Time and time again, I was asked whether there will be some sort of similar scheme for second-hand homes. I know part of the reason the shared equity scheme focused on new builds was to provide a little certainty as developments were being built out. It would be worth having a look to see if we could have any kind of scheme that could make owning a second-hand home more affordable.

I will very briefly address that. That scheme is a supply-side measure. We have extended it to self-builds. I do not envisage it being available for second-hand homes. It is the supply itself that-----

The Minister might envisage another scheme that may be.

Deputy Gould might be back. He may squeeze in just a few final questions for the Minister.

I will let the Deputy know that I am committed to speak at a Safe Ireland event on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence so-----

We could reasonably finish at 3.30 p.m., which will be two hours. That is reasonable enough.

I am looking for a few quick-fire updates on some other matters. The quicker the Minister can give me responses, the quicker I will get through the updates, if he does not mind.

The regulations for the enhanced defective blocks scheme were meant to be completed by the end of this year and the new scheme was meant to be open for applications next year. Does he expect that timeline will still be met? Will the regulations slip into quarter 1 next year before they are complete?

This is a very important issue. I am glad the Deputy raised it. I met with Donegal County Council last week. We are seeing an increase in applications, which is good. I met with the local authorities to make sure we are moving through those applications from stage 1 to stage 2 in order to actually get them done. Approximately 19 homes have been remediated in the Donegal area. It is not enough but it is starting to happen. I am still hopeful of getting the regulations in this year.

Is there a chance they will slip?

There is a chance they will slip but if they do so, they will be completed very early next year. We are at an advanced stage on them. I have been made aware that some homeowners have still not received the €5,000 or €6,000 through the grant. It is a very small amount that relates to the testing work. I want that to happen this year. I am also particularly concerned about 15 to 20 people or possibly a few more - I do not have the full detail but we are seeking that from Donegal County Council - who are living in homes that are becoming uninhabitable and are dangerous. It is about how we could activate the €15,000 additional accommodation grant-----

Some of those homes, and the Minister and I have been in some of them, are still stuck at stage 1 -----

-----because the central issue is pyrrhotite rather than mica. I will ask a follow-up question on emergency accommodation. Those families need emergency accommodation but half the applications are still stuck in phase 1, some for almost two years. The quicker we can get that pyrrhotite issue resolved and get them onto stage 2, the better.

I do not disagree. I know from my meeting with Donegal County Council that the Housing Agency is now involved in the reassessment of some of the stage 1 applications which, as the Deputy rightly said, are in effect stuck. I want to see them move through. A large number have now gone to stage 2. We are looking at further social homes. I believe we can move on the first tranche of social homes quite quickly. I want to see that scheme move through.

On the matter of pyrrhotite, we want that work concluded as quickly as possible. It is being done independently of me. I am not an engineer. We need the scientific research to be done. I have been clear-----

I appreciate that. I do not want to cut across the Minister but while we are waiting for the review of IS 465, there is an independent-----

There are homes that can still be done.

There is an interim measure whereby there could be some flexibility in the operation of the current statutory instrument to allow those homes the Minister has been in, which are very clearly not fit for habitation, to be progressed in advance of the review of IS 465. Is that something the Minister is considering?

There are homes that are progressing through the stages now. I met with Donegal County Council specifically to look at the actual applications that were there in respect of homes we could move on very quickly now. I mean it when I say "now". I am acutely aware of the stress and distress that families are in, not just in Donegal but also in other affected regions in Mayo, Clare and Limerick.

Is there any provision for emergency accommodation?

I am looking at that at present. I discussed that with the chief executive of Donegal County Council - I ask Deputy Ó Broin to allow me to conclude on this because it is important - and his director of service. I have sought input from Donegal County Council and the Housing Agency on how we can move specifically regarding those people. It is probably approximately 20 homes right now. I do not have the exact handle on it, but these are people who applied to the scheme and now require alternative accommodation. I am working on that now. I had a very extensive meeting with the local authority just the week before last.

I appreciate the response. All I ask is that the sooner the Minister is in a position to clarify any of those matters regarding when the regulations will be done, when the scheme will be open, and when there will be emergency accommodation, the better.

I have two other very quick questions because we are conscious of the Minister's time rather than ours. We could stay here all day. In respect of the interdepartmental working group that has met twice to examine the report on defective buildings, the Minister said he is hopeful of bringing a memo to Cabinet, again, at the end of this year. Is that the Minister's intention? I will correspond with the Minister on this matter as he invited our views on it. I will correspond with him to ask whether that will be forthcoming next week. Is he also considering any interim emergency measures for those homeowners whose homes, for example, have very severe fire safety defects and who cannot wait for a scheme? Will there be some interim or emergency measures at the end of this year or early next year?

I still intend to bring recommendations on the report to the Cabinet this side of Christmas to get a Government decision on how to proceed. I am committed to helping homeowners. The State needs to grasp the nettle, and we will. I am very conscious that approximately 14% of apartments have already had work done.

I am only interrupting because I am pressed for time. I am not being adversarial. Regarding emergency funding for urgent works, is anything being considered?

I met the members of the working group, which has now stood down. I met the Construction Defects Alliance. I met the Apartment Owners' Network recently. Some good suggestions were put to me and to officials-----

I know, and I am not being adversarial, but I need to press the Minister. Is he considering potential emergency or interim measures? It is a reasonable question.

May I conclude what I was saying? I would have answered already if the Deputy had not interrupted me. Some good suggestions have been made to me about what measures we can take, particularly in respect of homes and apartments that are deemed dangerous. I am assessing those suggestions, but I want to be clear-----

When does the Minister expect a decision on those?

Let me just say-----

When does the Minister expect a decision?

When dealing with something like this, there will be a scheme that lasts ten years at least.

I will work with the Minister on it. I am not being adversarial. I asked a reasonable question. When does the Minister hope to make a decision on those emergency or interim measures?

My focus right now is on bringing the full recommendations to the Cabinet.

I look forward to that.

It is important that we establish a robust scheme. That will require legislation, but I am open to any reasonable measure we can take in the interim to help homeowners. I am actively considering them and I will-----

When will a decision be made on them?

Please, allow the Minister to continue.

From the day we entered into government, I committed to doing this. I established the working group-----

I am not disputing any of that.

I know the Deputy is not, but he cannot dismiss it either.

I am not dismissing it.

This is not something-----

Does the Minister have an expected date by which a decision will be made? It is a fair question.

This is a serious matter, as we all know. I want to set up a robust scheme-----

-----that provides a roadmap for people to get their homes fixed. We are going to provide that assistance. If there are short-term measures that can be taken - I am considering some myself, given that I have been personally involved in this issue from day 1 - I intend to take them.

I understand that fully.

I will ask my final question. On Sunday, the Taoiseach announced changes to the income thresholds for social housing eligibility. He gave the impression that the detail of those changes would be published this week. Is that going to happen or when will the Minister publish the detail of what he intends to do?

I will bring a memo to the Cabinet this coming week. Subject to a Government decision, we will publish the details.

It could be next week if the Cabinet approves.

It will certainly be this side of Christmas. Should I get Government approval for them, the changes will take effect from 1 January. As we all know, there has been no proper review of social housing limits nearly since 2011 bar the interim changes I made a number of weeks ago in respect of five counties. It is imminent.

My final two questions-----

The Deputy only has one minute remaining.

I will roll other questions into them. They will have short answers.

That will depend. They might not be short.

The Taoiseach mentioned that there would be some planning changes. We are keen to see them. He said that there would be amendments to the planning and development and foreshore (amendment) Bill. That Bill is still undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny, PLS, so I presume this was just an oversight. Does the Minister know when the amendments will be introduced?

Is the capital advance loan facility, CALF, review concluded and will the Minister publish it?

As to when I will table the amendment to allow for emergency planning, particularly in respect of social housing, I intend to do that in the An Bord Pleanála Bill that I will be introducing on restructuring the board and the appointment of new board members.

Does the Minister mind if I ask about that, given that it is relevant to this committee? We have just finished PLS and the Minister has not received our PLS report yet.

The Bill is not on next week's Dáil schedule, so given that there will only be two further sitting weeks, the Minister does not expect us to get to those amendments before Christmas. We might see the Bill introduced, though. Realistically speaking, will the amendments be tabled next year?

There is broad agreement on some of the changes we are making to An Bord Pleanála. The committee has done PLS on the Bill. I will work with the committee to try to get the Bill through as quickly as possible, although I will not rush it. With the committee's agreement, I intend to address emergency planning for social housing by way of a Committee Stage amendment. As soon as we have the final legal advice on the amendment, we will engage with the committee's members and give them sight of it.

What about the CALF review?

It is nearly concluded. I have not received the submission yet.

We will revert on that by way of a parliamentary question.

We have agreed to let the Minister go at 3.30 p.m. and there are two members remaining, so I will allow each of them two minutes. I call Deputies Gould and Flaherty.

I was expecting more time.

I am sorry about that, but I have committed to speak at a Safe Ireland event on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

The longer we continue, the less time we will have.

I will lash out a few questions. We are discussing social housing income limits. In recent years, people have been taken off lists for being over the limit. So that they might keep their times, will there be an exemption for people who went over the limit in the past year or two but who are now under the limit? I know of a person who was on a list for ten and a half years. He was to be allocated a house by Cork City Council, but it turned out he was over the limit. He, his wife and his family are devastated. Will the Minister consider this suggestion when examining the limits?

Local authorities are telling me off the record that one of the major reasons they cannot deliver more social and affordable housing is a lack of staff. There is a recruitment issue, but what more can the Minister do to get local authorities to take on more staff to build social housing? Everyone in local authorities with whom I speak is pointing to issues with staffing, particularly recruitment. Some of them are saying it in Leinster House and others are saying it to me personally. The vast majority of local authorities are not doing direct builds. I live in Gurranabraher in Cork, which was built 80 years ago by the old Cork Corporation. When discussing building houses, I am not talking about Cork County Council getting a developer to build a site for it. That is fine and I have no problem with it, but I am also referring to how local authorities need to take on builders, masons, engineers and so on. Each local authority should have a direct build section.

My final point is on the €337 million underspend. The Minister says it will be used, but we have local authorities that have virtually no staff to build houses. The Minister should be prioritising funding for that.

My purpose in being here today is to explain what we will do with that money. We have discussed the legacy debt and the land acquisition fund, and what is happening in those respects is generally seen as positive. We asked each local authority what level of additional staff it required or wanted in respect of social housing specifically, not affordable. Two hundred and fifty new posts have been approved. Of those, 180 had been filled by the end of September. On top of that, a further 69 posts have been granted in respect of affordable housing delivery, and those are being filled at the moment.

Just to remind him, the Minister is the one with the time pressure.

Will the Minister consider the direct build aspect, please?

We will consider all aspects in trying to deliver more homes. Local authority-led delivery is good delivery, as are AHB-led delivery and LDA-led delivery. We need homes. However, if the Deputy is asking me whether I will establish a building unit in local authorities to build their own homes, how long will it take to scale that up? Each local authority would have to employ builders to build houses itself. We are focusing on what we have to do now.

I will be quick, as I am conscious that the Minister needs to go. We have discussed modular builds a number of times. Could the Department set targets for local authorities to build modular builds, be they timber-framed, steel or other builds? There are great examples with the Ukrainian crisis. I have been in two-bedroom modular builds that were built for €80,000, excluding site costs. Their life expectancy is 100 years and we can put any rendering or finishing we want on them. Could we incentivise local authorities to build modular builds? There is a crisis in construction, with the industry unable to get staff. Modular manufacturers say it is easier for them to get staff because staff are guaranteed to be working indoors.

They are not out in the cold and they are not out in the rain. I suppose we are lucky in Longford that we have a number of these manufacturers and I am seeing the advantages. Maybe it is something to take back to the Department to see whether local authorities could be targeted in the new year for modular housing.

We dealt with this in some detail in response to Deputy Duffy. We are working on doing that exact thing, that is, working a procurement framework for local authorities in the delivery of rapid build timber frame and other modular homes. We are doing that right now. I mentioned to Deputy Duffy that I thought approximately 48% of the homes being build are timber frame. They are not all rapid build, by the way. We are below that number in local authorities and I think we can do a lot more. The purpose of one of the funds we discussed today in regard to land acquisition is to specifically focus on land acquisition and modern methods of construction to be able to deliver homes quicker and more efficiently but still very good quality and durable homes that will last the same length of time as a normal build, or what would have been a traditionally-built home.

I thank the Minister and officials for being here today. That concludes the consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 34 and in accordance with Standing Order 101, a message to that effect will be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil. I thank the Minister and the officials for this constructive meeting.

I thank all the members for their input and questions. We will respond in writing with any answers which have not been given today.

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