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Select Committee on Social Affairs debate -
Friday, 17 May 1996

SECTION 22.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 12, to delete lines 35 to 42 and substitute the following:

"(4) the person (if any) having the power to amend a trust to which this section applies may amend the said trust so as to dispense with any limitations on the duration of the said trust the purpose of which is to ensure compliance with the rules or provisions referred to in subsection (1), notwithstanding any provision of the said trust to the contrary.'.".

This is a technical amendment relating to the rule against perpetuities. It seeks to ensure the amendment of the scheme document requires the assent of those who would normally be required, usually the trustees and the employer. The original insertion of section 61A allowed for the trustees alone to do this. It also provides that schemes can dispense only with limitations which have been inserted to ensure compliance with the rule against perpetuities, otherwise schemes could avoid wind-up in certain circumstances and allow scope for abuse. I recommend the amendment to the House.

Section 22 proposes the insertion of section 61A to the original Act. Section 61A(4) states:

The trustees of any trust to which this section applies may, by deed poll, amend the terms of the said trust so as to extend the duration of the trust beyond the period or after the date therein originally stated and notwithstanding any provision of the said trust to the contrary including any requirement for the consent of any party to such amendment.

This is a retrospective amendment of a trust. It is giving the power to the trustees to change the trust. In what circumstances may this apply? There could be old trusts — perhaps the Minister could provide some examples — where all the members and beneficiaries of the trust have died. In such circumstances there could be, for example, £1 million left in the fund. What happens to this money? What do the trustees do with it?

The proposed section 61A(4) states:

The trustees of any trust to which this section applies may, by deed poll, amend the terms of the said trust so as to extend the duration of the trust . . . notwithstanding . . . any requirement for the consent of any party to such amendment.

What are the practical effects of what the Minister is proposing to do? Can it have an influence on the funds, resources or assets that may be held in old trusts? The amendment states:

The persons (if any) having the power to amend a trust to which this section applies may amend the said trust so as to dispense with any limitations on the duration of the said trust the purpose of which is to ensure compliance with the rules or provisions referred to in subsection (1), notwithstanding any provision of the said trust to the contrary.

This section deals with the rules against perpetuities. It deals with the principal Act being amended by inserting after section 61 section 61A, of which this is a subpart. The proposes section 61A(1) states:

The rules of law and equity relating to perpetuities, inalienability and accumulations and the provisions of the Accumulations Act, 1892, shall not apply and shall be deemed never to have applied to any trust to which this section applies.

It may be necessary to clarify whether there should be some saver in this regard. Perhaps the Minister will address this? What will the effect of this be on old trusts and old trusts which have assets, whether they be cash assets, investments or land? Perhaps the Minister might tell us something about it.

I remind the committee of last night's decision to conclude at 11.30 a.m. today.

I managed to defer a number of appointments this morning, but I am not in a position to stay any longer than 11.30 a.m.

Chairman, I suggest then that you, the convenors and the spokes-persons arrange to complete the Bill at a time which suits the Minister or his Minister of State. I also had appointments this morning, as, indeed, did other Members.

The committee was to meet one way or the other at 11 a.m. this morning.

I had hoped to attend a funeral which was quite important this morning at 10 a.m. but that was not possible.

We will suspend the sitting now and resume for a presentation by Focus Ireland at 11.45 a.m. Between 12.30 p.m. and 1.15 p.m. the committee will meet the Conference of Religious of Ireland.

I hope the Opposition Members address the issues presented to them by CORI a little more seriously than they addressed the Bill this morning.

I assure the Minister that the Opposition will not take any dictation from the Minister or the Government. This is the House of Parliament; it is not a slot machine and we will not have it turned into one.

Bring this farce to an end.

The Select Committee adjourned at 11.32 a.m.

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