Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 7 July 2004
39 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Transport the position with regard to his plans to bring forward to Cabinet proposals for the construction of a metro system in Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20435/04]
View answer41 Ms Enright asked the Minister for Transport the projected cost of the airport metro; if he has received Cabinet approval for the project; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20298/04]
View answer50 Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Transport when the Cabinet will make a decision with regard to the first phase of the Dublin metro project; and the number of years it would take before such a service came into operation in view of the approval in the summer of 2004 of the outline proposal prepared by the RPA. [20556/04]
View answer65 Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for Transport if he has satisfied himself that he can deliver the Dublin metro by 2007; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20319/04]
View answer77 Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for Transport his views on the report of the consultants engaged by the Joint Committee on Transport on the review of all information and data relating to the proposed Dublin metro; when he expects to bring specific proposals to Government on this issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20433/04]
View answer131 Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for Transport if his attention has been drawn to the technical reasons for the two Luas lines not being connected via an overground line between Westmoreland Street, College Green and Dawson Street; the most likely location for the proposed underground city centre metro to resurface and connect to the former Harcourt Street rail line; and if an overground city centre Luas extension from O’Connell Street to St. Stephen’s Green or Harcourt Street will lead to increased patronage on the Luas line from Tallaght even if not fully connected into the former Harcourt Street line due to the introduction of a metro. [20555/04]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 39, 41, 50, 65, 77 and 131 together.
The programme for Government contains a commitment to develop a metro with a link to Dublin Airport. I have received from the Railway Procurement Agency the revised outline business case for line 1 of the metro, which involves a line from the airport to the city centre. The total estimated direct capital cost of construction in 2002 prices is €1.2 billion.
Integration of public transport services in the greater Dublin area is being pursued within the broad policy framework of the Dublin Transportation Office's Platform for Change. In this regard, the possibility of a connection with the Tallaght and Sandyford Luas lines is being considered in the context of the first phase of the metro project from the city centre to the airport. The timescale, precise cost and route, number and location of stations and arrangements for connections with the Luas lines will depend on a number of factors including the final Government decision, geo-technical surveys, negotiations with bidders and railway order processes including a public inquiry. The merits of all alternative solutions and routes will be considered in the preparation of a submission for the Government on the matter.
I welcome the Joint Committee on Transport's recent report on the proposal for a Dublin metro system, which was a valuable contribution to the debate on this issue. In particular, I welcome the recommendation in favour of a metro system with a connection to the airport. I am finalising my proposals on the metro in the context of the wider transport needs of the greater Dublin area. I expect the Government to finalise proposals on the metro in the near future.
The Minister has been using the phrase "in the near future" in this regard for the past year or so. One would not want to be holding one's breath. In a reply to Deputy Naughten during his last Question Time on 27 May last, the Minister said he would bring proposals to the Cabinet before the summer.
I believe the Minister used the phrase "shortly".
Does he still expect to bring proposals to the Cabinet before the summer? What can we read into the Taoiseach's comment last week that the metro, as proposed by the Minister, is not seen as a priority for Government spending? Where are we going in that regard? Although there has been a great deal of talk and many reports and various committees have met to discuss the project, it is hard to know whether it is going anywhere. Will the Minister tell the House when he intends to bring a proposal to Cabinet? What did the Taoiseach mean by his comments last week?
This issue has been discussed by the Cabinet and various committees over the past year, on and off. I discussed it bilaterally with the Taoiseach and many Ministers during that period. We asked the RPA to reconsider the matter after it had given its original estimations. It came back to us with a direct capital cost estimation of €1.2 billion. The programme for Government commits the Government to developing a metro from the airport to the city centre.
By 2007.
It is a Government commitment. We are in the final phases of seeing how best we can finance the project, service the financing and move the project forward without too much delay. I agree with the Taoiseach's comments about the prospect of immediately starting to build the entire metro system, as proposed by the DTO. The project would last 20 or 30 years and would cost many billions. One can pick any number — it might cost €15 billion, €20 billion or €30 billion. We will not do that because we cannot afford it. The Taoiseach and I do not envisage the immediate construction of the entire city-wide metro system, but we envisage living up to the commitment in the programme for Government.
The RPA, which has done a substantial amount of work in this regard, has selected the recommended route. They originally had three routes but have narrowed it down to one recommendation. They have whittled down their estimates from over €2 billion to €1.2 billion and they are now in a position to allow us to take some final decisions.
When will the Minister bring it to Cabinet?
It would have been wrong of me to take a decision on this a year ago with the level of pricing being put to me at that time. That is the reason I decided to put them back through the hoops to see if we could get a different price on it. The Cabinet will discuss the matter again in its next few meetings——
When will the Minister bring a proposal to Cabinet?
——and a Cabinet committee on infrastructure will discuss it.
When will the Minister bring a proposal to Cabinet?
I cannot give the Deputy a definite date on that but the Cabinet will discuss it shortly.
Is the Minister still planning to bring it to Cabinet before the summer break?
The Cabinet usually meets right up to the end of July and it meets very early in September.
Does the Minister still intend to bring it to Cabinet before the summer break? The Minister knows what I mean.
From time to time it meets in August if it has to——
Will the Minister bring it to Cabinet before the summer break?
In the course of the next few Cabinet meetings this matter will be discussed again by the Cabinet. When it is right to take a final decision and we are satisfied with the pricing, the routes and the repayment systems we will then——
Does the Minister have the proposal on it?
I have accepted the Railway Procurement Agency's proposal to me and I am now satisfied with it, but I was not a year ago. I have discussed it with Cabinet colleagues — the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and other Ministers — in committee. We are in a position now to finalise matters.
Will the Minister define the difference between "the near future" and "shortly"? He appears to rotate those terms when referring to the timescale for the presentation to Cabinet. The Minister has been using them for the past 12 or 18 months but it is like a broken record at this stage. Will the Minister define those terms and outline the timescale involved? When will a decision be made on this matter?
In light of the fact that the Minister is now standing over the RPA figures, does he not believe it is inadequate of the RPA to cost figures based on the fact that they will adversely affect potential customers of the metro? Does he not agree that the reduction in the number of stations, escalators and ticketing machines will reduce the number of people who may use the metro and generate an income?
The Minister stated on a number of occasions in the past that the metro to Dublin Airport from the city centre is not a stand-alone project but the first step in a larger metro project. In light of his comments earlier, and the Taoiseach's comments this morning that the project to the airport is enormously costly and that the Cabinet would not consider an extension to the entire Dublin area, does the Minister stand over his comments on the metro from the city centre to the airport as a stand-alone project? Has he done a U-turn on that? Has the Irish Rail plan been taken off the table or is it ongoing?
I fully stand over my statement that the metro from the city centre to the airport — my preference would be that it would go on to Swords — would form the first part of a city and county-wide system. What the Taoiseach and I are saying is that we cannot undertake the city and county-wide system now but it is sensible that what we do here forms the first leg of an overall city and county plan, which is in the DTO platform for change. That is totally consistent.
In regard to the Irish Rail project, the DTO also recommends that an interconnector be developed as well as other similar proposals. They are also necessary and it is a matter of deciding which of these we get to first. These are multi-billion euro projects and I am determined that the first project we will do, before the Irish Rail project, will be the metro project because it is necessary to link the Luas——
What about the proposal to the airport?
It is necessary to link the two Luas lines and the metro project from Swords, hopefully, or from the airport to St. Stephen's Green, which will turn that Luas line into a metro line from Swords to Sandyford. That would be a fantastic addition to the city. I have told the Taoiseach, the Cabinet and my colleagues that I am fully committed to finalising the funding arrangements to bring that into being. I am not deliberately delaying on this in any way; I just want to get it right, and as soon as it is right I will push the button, but not before.
I accept the Minister now sees the sense in the RPA proposal but the problem, as we saw this morning, is that the Taoiseach does not believe in it. He was asked specifically for his opinion of the Dublin metro plan and all he could say was that it was very expensive and how could we possibly pay for it, which means that it is dead in the water, so to speak, in Cabinet. In those circumstances, would the Minister not be better off getting a decision from the Cabinet? His Government colleagues would then have to face the reality of the other options we might have to pursue including, as the Minister said, linking the current Luas line in St. Stephen's Green?
Does the Minister believe that the alternative to a metro would be reversion to the original Luas proposal, which would see the two lines connecting and a third line heading north from O'Connell Street towards the airport? Given that in the past the Minister said that the Irish Rail option of a spur from the DART line is not feasible, will he agree that the next best option, if we cannot afford the metro, is that original Luas proposal?
The Minister prevaricated on this issue for a year. He said he had to "put them back through the hoops" on the figures but the reality is that those figures were confirmed a year ago. He has sat on them for a year and in that time 70,000 houses have been built. The longer we put off this decision, the more houses will be built alongside roadways instead of public transport lines, on which we do not know if the Government has a view. A planning issue arises here and every week the Minister waits is an extra thousand houses built in the wrong place. That is the real cost of the Minister's indecision on this issue over the past year.
I remind the House again of the one minute time limit.
First, I did not sit on it for a year. The work that was going on in the RPA only concluded recently when I received the answers to the final queries I made. I was not satisfied to proceed on the basis of what was presented to me and I continued to make the queries until I got the answers. Now that I have the answers I am satisfied to go ahead.
Second, I think what the Taoiseach was referring to is that there is a perception that Dublin gets everything — the M50, Luas, the metro and so on. There is a need to explain to the rest of the country that every time another €1 billion project is proposed for Dublin our citizens in Cork, Galway and throughout the country can have access to it and avail of its services. I think the Taoiseach was referring to that type of thinking when he talked about not doing the entire €15 billion, €20 billion or €30 billion project tomorrow.
In short, the Department of Transport and myself are strongly committed to this metro project. We finally got the answers we pushed hard for over some time. If the Deputy looks at the figures we are now operating on he will see it was worth the wait. A route is selected and it is now a matter for my Cabinet colleagues and myself to bring finality to this, which I am determined to do.
If the Minister cannot afford the metro line to the airport we should revert to the original Luas proposal, which was to connect the two lines over-ground in the city centre and build a third Luas line north to the airport.
I would prefer to do it properly.
If the Minister is not able to do it properly, would he revert to that option?
I do not accept that I am not doing the metro. I am determined in that regard.
When will the Minister decide on it?
A week before the next general election.
We all accept that the metro is needed. The Minister accepts that also. The difficulty is the delay. Will the Minister accept that the longer we delay, the more it will cost the State?
I was interested to hear the Minister say that the Taoiseach is concerned about a perception that Dublin is getting priority over the rest of the country. Is any other area in the country experiencing traffic problems such as those in Dublin?
There are places and the Deputy should ask his party's county councillors about them.
Commentators often overlook the amount of taxes paid by people in Dublin in contrast to the quality of life experienced in many Dublin areas. The Minister referred to the metro line going to Dublin Airport from the city centre. Is the delay due to the proposed location of the metro terminal at the airport? Is the delay caused by private developers building the terminal?
People pay taxes outside Dublin city.
We pay much more than anyone else due to population size.
It is nice to have roads to go down to the country.
I do not want to cause a fight between Deputy Crowe and his country cousins because everyone pays their taxes. The terminal is not an issue in the design of the metro. It is early days as the detailed physical terminal points have not been finally settled.
There is a need for joined-up thinking in the Department of Transport and at Cabinet. The Minister spoke of the need for a western rail corridor and raised the argument as to whether the infrastructure should come first or after development. However, he does not accept that principle because there is no proven demand for the western rail corridor.
I never said that.
The Minister did when he spoke about the eternal argument about whether infrastructure should come first or whether one should wait for development. It makes sense to put the infrastructure in place first. The Minister had no difficulty spending billions of euro on roads in the greater Dublin area. As Deputy Eamon Ryan pointed out, development has occurred along those roads leading to morning and evening traffic chaos. This is due to the lack of linkage between housing development and transport policies. An agency is needed to plan for housing development and transport together rather than separately as it is now.
Regarding the proposed metro, is the Minister taking on board the Committee on Transport's recommendation on the necessity of identifying an agency with a proven track record of delivering projects on time and within budget?
It will be hard to find such an agency.
The clear implication of this recommendation is that the Railway Procurement Agency is not the one to deliver a metro. The Taoiseach is correct in describing the cost as astronomical. Ways of managing it must be found. Half the cost of the metro could be provided through development levies on sites between Swords and Dublin city centre with no charge on the Exchequer. Is the Minister exploring that option?
I will study further the recommendations of the Committee on Transport on the metro. However, the Railway Procurement Agency is the best agency equipped to build a metro. The Dublin Transportation Office and the local authorities' planning guidelines contain integrated considerations for land use and transport and housing needs. I am in favour of levies for development on the metro line.
No greenfield sites will be left at the rate the Minister is proceeding.
Now that the Minister for Transport has confidence in the Railway Procurement Agency, is there any point in building a metro if people are not prepared to use it? Will people use it if they have to climb up and down staircases because the Railway Procurement Agency cut back on the number of escalators? What about the reduction in the number of stations? To extend the metro from three carriages to four will require a boring machine to be brought back. The cost has been reduced to €1.2 billion because the Railway Procurement Agency has downgraded the specification for the proposed metro. It is important that people use the service when it is up and running and that the customer is looked after. Since the Railway Procurement Agency has already ignored this, it should not be the agency with responsibility for it.
The Deputy is very concerned about escalators. I will bring this to the attention of the designers.
The Minister should read the Committee on Transport report on the proposed metro.
Will the Minister respond to the report?
I will.
I share the Minister's confidence in the Railway Procurement Agency as it did an excellent job in delivering the Luas, given the mess made by the Government causing a three year delay in its completion. Given that the other proposed metro lines will be scrapped, why should the Department of Transport not ask the Dublin Transportation Office to review its platform for change? Will the Minister review the regional planning guidelines which allow for housing to grow along the new roads that are planned, taking no cognisance of previous plans that proposed concentration back towards the centre along public transport lines? Now that the broader metro project has been reduced, the Minister must review housing and transport planning.
The metro is not scrapped. The broad city and countywide scheme is still part of the Dublin Transportation Office's plans. However, the Taoiseach and I have said that the broader scheme cannot be constructed now. I have asked the Dublin Transportation Office to review its platform for change programme constantly but that is not a fixed——
What does that mean?
——settled document. The Dublin Transportation Office is a good organisation with highly professional planners. On a day-to-day basis it continues to update its plans and programmes and bring them to the Government's attention.
It is time to get off the merry-go-round. The Minister has been on it for the last two years.
I might do another two years.
It is not looking good at the moment.
