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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jun 1992

Vol. 421 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 14, 15 and 16. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight; No. 14 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings of Committee Stage of No. 15, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Education and that the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of No. 16, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice.

It is further proposed, notwithstanding anything in the order of the Dáil of 11 June, that the two divisions demanded on Vote 32 and on Votes 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 11 to 18, inclusive and 44 which were deferred on Friday, 12 June shall be decided by one division which shall be taken not later than 6.45 p.m. Private Members' Business which shall be No. 23 shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that business be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. this evening satisfactory? Agreed.

Is the proposal that No. 14 shall be decided without debate agreed? Agreed.

Are the proposals for dealing with No. 15 satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Item No. 15, the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991, is a very complicated Bill. There is a total of 128 amendments to be taken, of which only 25 have been discussed so far. The Government now propose that we deal with 100 amendments, plus the substantive sections themselves, all before lunchtime. That is no way for this House to conduct its business. We object strongly to this. The solution appears to be to use Special Committees to deal with legislation which is not acceptable.

Mr. Spring

In relation to the taking of Item No. 15 may I seek an assurance from the Taoiseach that, subject to this Bill being completed by this House within the next few days, the Minister for Education will not seek to circulate his remarks on this Bill to Fianna Fáil members of vocational education committees as he has done in the case of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill. Will the Taoiseach say whether he is aware of what the Minister for Education has done — tried to compromise the chief executive officers of the vocational education committees in relation to the Regional Technical Colleges Bill — and get his assurance that this will not happen in the case of this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely this is a matter that can be adverted to when we come to deal with the Bill?

Mr. Spring

In relation to the ordering of this business, we should get an assurance that the Minister for Education will not seek to send documentation to Fianna Fáil councillors through the chief executive officers of vocational education committees, which compromises their positions.

Proinsias De Rossa

My point is similar to that made by Deputy John Bruton in regard to the time being allowed to deal with amendments tabled to this Bill. It is quite extraordinary that this Bill is being dealt with in this way, given the considerable number of amendments the Minister himself has already introduced. It appears to me that more time should be devoted to this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it, then, that there is an objection.

Question put: "That the proposals for dealing with Item No. 15 be agreed to".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 66.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Howlin.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must now ask if the proposal to deal with item No. 16 is agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

No, Sir. This is the Criminal Evidence Bill which concerns giving adequate powers to the courts to deal with the problem of child sexual abuse, a major problem in this country, and it is obviously very important that any legislation to deal with it be properly considered. I understand there are 54 amendments to be dealt with, apart from the legislation itself. It is the view of this party that legislation of this sensitivity and importance should in no circumstances whatever be subject to a time limit. My party believe it may well be possible without a time limit to complete the legislation within the time provided, but we object in principle to a time limit on legislation of this kind.

Proinsias De Rossa

This is probably one of the most significant developments of our law in recent times and many of the amendments which are yet to be discussed have not been discussed on Committee Stage and probably will not be reached in the time available tonight to complete this Bill. We must register strong opposition to dealing with important legislation in this peremptory way. I appeal to the Taoiseach to allow whatever time is needed to complete discussion of the Bill.

Mr. Taylor

I support the comments regarding this Bill made by Deputy Bruton and Deputy De Rossa. This highlights once again the urgent need this House has to refer Bills of that nature to a Special Committee as is to be done later this morning on the Solicitors Bill. If ever a Bill was appropriate to a Special Committee it is the Criminal Evidence Bill. Perhaps even at this late stage the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip might consider the advisability of referring the remainder of this Bill to a Special Committee so that all the important amendments which are there can be teased out properly in a committee room, which is the proper place for it rather than on the floor of Dáil Éireann.

The Taoiseach

We all agree that it is a very important Bill and that it is desirable to get it through both Houses before the summer recess. In all 13 hours and 15 minutes were allocated to the Committee Stage debate and five hours have been allocated for Report and Final Stages today. Additional time was asked for and given. As we move towards the summer recess we may have this type of objection every morning.

Mr. Shatter

May I put a question to the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it on the same subject?

Mr. Shatter

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate now.

Mr. Shatter

I am not trying to have a debate. As Deputy Bruton said, 54 amendments have been tabled for Report Stage of this Bill. We cannot have a conveyor belt system of legislation. This is important legislation. We have indicated to the Taoiseach that it may be possible to complete the debate by 10.30 p.m. I ask the Taoiseach not to divide the House on this matter but to allow the Bill to be taken in the time allocated and if we need additional time, perhaps one or two hours, it be allocated between now and the time this House rises. This is serious and important legislation. I hope the Minister for Justice agrees with me that this is legislation to which the Opposition parties had a substantial and constructive input. Indeed, some of the amendments we will consider today derive from amendments tabled by the Fine Gael Party and some amendments tabled by Deputy McCartan on behalf of Democratic Left. I ask the Taoiseach to remove the guillotine. Obviously, we will do our best to complete the Bill in the time allocated. The Fine Gael Party will agree to additional time on some other day if that is required.

The Taoiseach

If the House agrees, we can sit for another hour and a half until 12 midnight.

Mr. Shatter

That is fine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed. I take it the Whips will decide when precisely this matter will be disposed of.

Mr. J. Bruton

The House has just decided.

An Ceann Comhairle

Usually we give this prerogative to the Whips.

Mr. J. Bruton

We have agreed to substitute 12 midnight for 10.30 p.m. We need to change the proposal in regard to item No. 1.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a further question I must put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with postponed votes satisfactory? Agreed. Is it agreed that Private Members' Business, item 23, shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m.? Agreed.

Mr. Quinn

Is the Taoiseach aware that the proceedings of the Special Committee on the Finance Bill which sat about four or five weeks ago have not yet been printed and will not be available until September because of the starvation of resources to the staff of this House? Am I in order in raising this matter on the Order of Business? This House cannot do its business at present because of a lack of resources. References to special committees are vacuous——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy wish to raise a matter appertaining to legislation?

Mr. Quinn

It is a matter pertaining to the Order of Business, Sir. It is pointless in us conducting our business in this House if the public to whom we are ultimately accountable cannot deliberate and read our proceedings. We referred the Finance Bill to a Special Committee, a move that was acclaimed by all sides and initiated by the Minister for Finance. I have been reliably informed that the proceedings of the Special Committee — approximately 20 hours of debate — which are of immense importance to the financial community will not be read until September. Is the Taoiseach aware of this and what is he going to do about it?

The Taoiseach

I can assure the Deputy that I will have the matter examined to see what can be done.

Mr. Quinn

Thank you.

Mr. J. Bruton

I thank the Taoiseach for agreeing to extend the time allocated for the Report and Final Stages of the Criminal Evidence Bill. I think he will agree there is an atmosphere of haste on the part of the Government in regard to the enactment of legislation. I wish to draw the Taoiseach's attention to the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has not yet brought into effect sections of the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1986, the Companies Act, 1991. Will the Taoiseach ensure that where legislation is passed through this House in haste the relevant Ministers will bring it into effect with equal haste so that we will not have examples similar to the one I cited in respect of just one Minister where legislation passed in haste has not been brought into effect six or seven years later?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is referring to regulations arising out of Bills which have been passed. I do not think any of us would accept that the Companies Bill which took about four years to go through both Houses was passed in haste.

Proinsias De Rossa

Almost a year ago the Government circulated the Family Planning (Amendment) Bill and since then, though it is hard to recall, I think there have been three changes of Minister. We have repeatedly asked the Taoiseach when it is proposed to progress this Bill through the House or if it will be withdrawn and a new Bill brought forward. Can the Taoiseach indicate at this late stage, and before the anniversary of the original Bill, when it is intended to have this Bill progressed through the House? May I also ask him if he has had an opportunity to discuss with the new United States Ambassador to Ireland the results of the referendum——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy De Rossa——

The Taoiseach

It was a good try.

An Ceann Comhairle

——let there be no reflection on a representative of another country to this State.

The Taoiseach

I can assure the Deputy that the family planning Bill, as appropriately amended, will be dealt with before there is any other change of Minister.

Mr. Creed

Will Senator Hanafin amend it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gay Mitchell has been offering for some time.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Taoiseach will be aware that I have been very much involved in the Maastricht Treaty referendum campaign for the past few weeks.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy was not the only one.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Tánaiste was very busy otherwise.

Mr. Shatter

The Tánaiste was more concerned with the Olympics than with the Maastricht Treaty.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. G. Mitchell

Lest he thinks I have forgotten about the legislation in regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General, may I ask the Taoiseach to confirm that this legislation will be published?

The Taoiseach

The text of the Bill is being finalised and it will be published as soon as possible.

Mr. S. Barrett

May I ask the Taoiseach when the section of the intoxicating liquor Act which controls the sale of alcohol by supermarkets will be brought into being by order of the Minister for Justice? Is he aware that many supermarkets are selling alcohol to under age persons? The section of this Act dealing with such abuse, which requires an order of the Minister for Justice, has never been brought into being.

The Taoiseach

These are regulations and not legislation. I will have the matter examined.

Mr. S. Barrett

I am talking about regulations——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy, there are no grounds for argument.

Mr. S. Barrett

I am asking when the regulations will be made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business refers to legislation and to regulations.

Mr. S. Barrett

When will the regulations be made?

The Taoiseach

As soon as possible.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is delegating legislation.

Mr. S. Barrett

This legislation was put through this House, a very important section of which requires the Minister for Justice to make regulations to bring it into being.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other ways of pursuing such matters.

Mr. S. Barrett

This legislation was passed four years ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are many other ways of dealing with this matter.

Mr. S. Barrett

We are still waiting——

An Ceann Comhairle

A number of Deputies are offering. I cannot promise that I will call them all.

Mr. Shatter

I wish to tell the Taoiseach that I want to dissociate myself from certain remarks, as do the rest of the Fine Gael Party. Will the Taoiseach dissociate himself, and his Government, from a statement made last night in this House by the Minister of State with responsibility for sport that it is the right of a member of the Government to use strong arm tactics on the Olympic Council——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Shatter.

Mr. Shatter

——in regard to the selection of members of the team to represent Ireland at the Olympic Games?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Foxe.

Mr. Shatter

It is a disgraceful use of political power——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Shatter, this is quite irrelevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Shatter

It is the kind of——

The Tánaiste

I have made representations to have the Deputy put on the tiddly-winks team.

Mr. Shatter

The Tánaiste would not know one end of a tiddly-winks team from the other.

Mr. Foxe

May I ask the Taoiseach what plans the Government have to redress the drastic decline in sheep farmers' incomes this year?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise now. I have already ruled on that matter.

Mr. Byrne

May I ask the Taoiseach if he remembers that this country was to ratify an EC Directive on consumer credit and money lending? In February 1991 the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, said that work was well advanced on the draft legislation to give effect to the Council Directive. As good Europeans after the referendum on the Maastricht Treaty——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Byrne, come to the point.

Mr. Byrne

Will the Taoiseach tell the House when he intends to bring forward the necessary legislation so that Ireland can ratify EC Directive 87/102?

An Ceann Comhairle

Has legislation been promised in this area?

Mr. Byrne

Absolutely.

The Taoiseach

I can assure the Deputy that it is our intention to bring forward legislation which is being prepared at the moment.

Mr. Cotter

I would like to ask the Taoiseach about the Child Care Act in the light of new information that has become available over the weekend. I assume the Taoiseach is aware of the report from the ISPCC last weekend about the huge increase in the number of calls relating to child sexual abuse.

Would the Taoiseach ask the Minister to make an order to bring into force Part III of the Child Care Act?

An Ceann Comhairle

These matters can be dealt with in so many ways other than on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is not——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Bruton knows the procedure at this time.

Mr. J. Bruton

Would you not agree, Sir, that it is pointless for this House to discuss legislation if, having enacted it, the Government fail to bring it into effect?

Mr. Barry

Acts are more than bits of paper; they are meant to have a purpose.

Mr. S. Barrett

It took four years to bring one section of the Intoxicating Liquor Act into effect.

Mr. J. Higgins

May I ask the Taoiseach, seeing that the Minister for Education has been restored to full health, and I welcome him back, when the Green Paper on Education will be published? Will it be published this week, or can we have a definite commitment in relation to a publication date?

The Taoiseach

I am glad to be able to tell the Deputy that the Minister has been restored to full health and will publish the Green Paper on Education tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Garland

Would the Taoiseach state whether prosecutions will be brought against the barbarians who committed unspeakable cruelties against sheep at the Department of Agriculture and Food?

A Deputy

Obviously there are no sheep farmers in Dublin South.

Mr. Shatter

Perhaps the incident to which Deputy Garland referred should be clarified.

Dr. Lee

Is the Taoiseach aware that all out-patient clinics will be cancelled in Temple Street Hospital for a period of four weeks?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, that is clearly not in order now. Before proceeding I must ask the House for clarification. Is it agreed that the earlier proposal to interrupt business at 10.30 p.m. be changed to provide that business be interrupted at 12 midnight? Agreed. I expect that we shall have some positive information later as to how precisely to deal with No. 16.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed that it will conclude at 12 midnight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed. Agreed.

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