Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Apr 1996

Vol. 464 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - Cars Confiscated by Garda Síochána.

Mr. N. Ahern

What are known as company cars are being driven around by children of 14 or 15 years of age. This has been a problem in parts of Dublin for some years. We have frequently heard reports of the Garda stopping these stolen company cars and cars which had been purchased from itinerants for £40. Up until last year all gardaí could do was ask the drivers to produce their tax and insurance at a Garda station within ten days. A campaign by the Garda, residents associations, public representatives etc. succeeded in having the law updated and the necessary provision was included in section 41 of the Road Traffic Act, 1994. The Minister for the Environment signed the regulations into law in the spring of 1995.

A parliamentary question was tabled about two months later seeking information on the number of cars confiscated at all Garda stations or at north-side Garda stations and full details were given in respect of each Garda station. Since then there is growing concern that the law is being used to confiscate vehicles not covered by the legislation.

The perception is that some gardaí have lost the run of themselves. While they are probably strictly within the law in confiscating any untaxed car, what they are doing is not within the spirit or the intent of the law as it was lobbied for and enacted.

Cars are being confiscated and in many cases motorists are left stranded on the side of the road or at a Garda station at all hours of the day or night. I listened with interest to the Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, on radio at lunch time speak about a particular case with which she dealt. I fully agree with her concern in this matter. Gardaí are alienating many genuine motorists by their over zealous interpretation of the law in a manner which was not predicted at the time the legislation was passed.

I tabled an oral question some weeks ago, for which I had to wait several weeks for a reply, seeking the up-to-date figures on the numbers of cars confiscated at Garda stations. All I received was a smart alec reply that the Department or the Garda do not know what is known as a company car.

This is a serious problem. There is a perception that gardaí are over zealous and not using the law in the manner and for the purpose for which it was intended. I should like to know the figures for the number of cars confiscated. If there is an argument about the definition of company car, will the Minister provide the figures for the number of cars confiscated and the number of cars which were reclaimed the following day, or two days later, on payment of £100? The difference will indicate the number of genuine company cars. We can safely presume nobody is paying £100 to reclaim a car purchased for £40 at the local halting site. If the Minister provides the figures I can extrapolate the information I need. I was shocked at the previous reply.

The same argument could be made in respect of motorcyclists who have been stopped by gardaí while in parts of my constituency other children who drive scrambler bikes across roads, parks, green areas etc. are never stopped, perhaps because it is too difficult. I was extremely disappointed with the recent reply and I hope the Minister can furnish details which will allow me to decide whether my perception is true or false.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen)

Neither I nor my Department would ever prepare a smart alec reply to a question legitimately tabled by any Member. I am upset by the Deputy's inference that I would treat a question in a flippant or smart alec manner. The question Deputy Ahern asked on 2 April referred to company cars. Newspapers or people may idiomatically refer to them as "company cars" but such a classification does not exist in law. I am aware that businesses supply cars to company staff and that they are termed "company cars" and I suppose one could idiomatically call ministerial cars company cars. However, the Deputy's question seeking statistical information on company cars could not be answered because there is no such classification. I know what the Deputy meant, but he should have been more specific. The Deputy referred to "stolen, untaxed company cars" in today's question, that classification is understandable.

Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act, 1994, was enacted by the Minister for the Environment before I joined him in Government and it came into effect on 19 April 1995. Under section 41 of that Act, gardaí are empowered to seize vehicles if the driver does not have a driving licence and is ineligible to hold one by reason of age, does not have insurance or if the vehicle has been untaxed for more than three months. The Deputy did not refer to stolen cars in his question of 2 April. Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act, 1994, does not refer to such vehicles, they are dealt with under section 112 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as amended. Section 41 of the 1994 Act was brought into force to strengthen Garda powers on under age driving and drivers using vehicles that have been uninsured and-or untaxed for three or more months. These are the only criteria for detaining and seizing a vehicle under section 41 of that Act.

The term "company car" is not defined in the legislation and Garda records do not indicate the categories of vehicle detained. I know the Deputy is referring to cars acquired by juveniles for small sums of money and driven without proper documentation which, if the driver is under age, he or she cannot obtain. If a car is being driven without tax or insurance by an under age driver — irrespective of whether the Deputy calls it a company car — the gardaí have the power to seize that car.

The Deputy will be interested to know that while a total of 1,961 vehicles were seized and detained by gardaí between 19 April and 31 December 1995, only 33 — less than 2 per cent — were being driven by under age persons. More than half — 55 per cent — were untaxed and the remainder — 44 per cent — were uninsured. I have been assured by the Garda authorities that every effort is made to enforce the legislation in a fair and impartial manner. I do not have figures to show how many of the 1,961 cars were reclaimed, but I will do my best to get that information for the Deputy.

Questions raised about such matters require many hours compiling statistics that are not readily available because all the necessary information technology is not yet in place. I do not wish to take operational manpower off the streets to gather figures for something which I am not sure would be useful. However, I will try to get the information for the Deputy and he can extrapolate how many of the 1,961 cars were reclaimed. If only 1,000 were reclaimed it could be assumed the people concerned with the other 961 were glad to get rid of them.

The Deputy should know that I do not give smart alec replies. His question referred to something which cannot be classified in law. While I may have known to what he was referring, I had to answer the question he asked.