Vol. 2 No. 19
We will take all the groups together, the National University of Ireland, St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, St. Angela's College of Education for Home Economics and the Church of Ireland College of Education. Neither of our lead questioners is here so Deputy Ardagh will lead followed by Deputy Durkan.
I welcome Dr. John Nolan, Registrar of the National University of Ireland, and ask him to introduce his accompanying official.
I am accompanied by Mr. Graham Doyle, senior administrative officer.
I welcome Mr. Doyle. From St. Patrick's College we have Dr. Pauric Travers, president, and I welcome him to the committee and ask him to introduce his accompanying officials.
I am accompanied by Mr. Jim Battelle, secretary bursar, Eileen McDevitt, assistant to the secretary bursar, and Dr. Liam MacMathúna, the registrar of the college.
I welcome the officials. From St. Angela's College we have Sr. Marianne O'Connor, president. I welcome her and ask her to introduce her accompanying officials.
I am accompanied by Alaine Murray, bursar and Niall McGrotty, accountant.
I welcome the officials. Mr. Sydney Blain is principal of the Church of Ireland College of Education.
I am accompanied by Tim Keatinge, bursar and registrar of the college.
You are both welcome. From the Department of Education and Science we have Mr. Paddy McDonagh, Assistant Secretary General, whom I welcome back to the committee.
Thank you, Chairman. I am accompanied by Teresa O'Connor, assistant principal in the higher education colleges section.
We also have Mr. John Hayden, secretary and chief executive officer of the Higher Education Authority.
I propose to take all four together and ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce his report. In the case of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, we are dealing with the annual financial statements, 1994-98, inclusive; St. Angela's College of Education for Home Economics, annual financial statements, 1995-98, inclusive; Church of Ireland College of Education, annual financial statements, 1994-98, inclusive; and the National University of Ireland, annual financial statements, 1994-98, inclusive.
I draw the attention of witnesses to the provisions of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, particularly the provisions of section 10 thereof.
The National University of Ireland was set up under the Universities Act, 1908, which also provided for the audit of its accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Universities Act, 1997, changed the structure of the NUI which now has four constituent universities, namely, UCD, UCC, UCG and Maynooth. While the NUI has always been subject to my audit, it is only since 1994 that examination of its accounts was brought within the remit of the committee. As I understand it this is the first time the NUI has been before the committee.
The bulk of NUI funding comes from a £35 annual charge on undergraduate students in the first three years of their studies in the constituent universities and on all postgraduate students in the universities. In 1998, for example, £1.36 million was collected through this channel. The main expense items are administration, salaries and the cost of extern examiners. There are no criticisms of the NUI in my audit reports.
St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra was established in 1875 to meet the teacher training needs of a denominational primary school system. The affairs of the college are administered by a governing body on behalf of the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. Since 1993 it is institutionally linked with Dublin City University. I have been responsible for the audit of the college since 1994 and the accounts for that year and for the four years up to 1998 are before the committee. The lands and buildings are owned by a trust on behalf of the Archbishop. The 1970 indenture between the college and the Department of Education and Science provides for the repayment of capital grants plus interest if the college is not used exclusively for the training of national teachers or some other educational purpose approved by the Minister. Up to 1997 the buildings were shown in the balance sheet at their insured value of about £29 million, but a revaluation on the basis ofexisting use shows them at just under £10 million.
The only outstanding matter arising from my audits of the college is the lack of a proper fixed asset register and I have drawn attention to this in each of my audit reports. However, I understand there have been positive moves in this respect, so hopefully the need for such a reference in future reports will not arise.
St. Angela's College was founded in 1952 - I am sure I will be corrected on the detail by the accounting officer - by the Ursuline Congregation as a teacher training college for home economics. In 1978 the college became a recognised college of the NUI. I took over responsibility for the audit of the college's accounts with effect from the 1994-95 academic year. The first two years' accounts were in a simple receipts and payments format, but with the support of the Department the accounts now comprise the more appropriate income and expenditure statement and the balance sheet. That said, fixed asset expenditure is written off against income and expenditure in the year of purchase, so there are no fixed assets shown on the balance sheet.
I have referred to the absence of a record of fixed assets in my last two audit reports. This issue could assume importance in the event of a discontinuance of the use of the college for educational purposes. In such a situation I think State funding of capital assets at the college would have to be taken into account in apportioning the proceeds of any sale which may arise. I am not anticipating a death wish for the college, but these are important issues. The issue is similar to that pertaining to St. Patrick's College where it has been sorted out by way of indenture. The committee will remember a problem we had in relation to Carysfort College regarding these matters.
The Church of Ireland College of Education became a recognised teacher training institution in 1884, but I believe its origins go back to the earlier part of that century. The main function of the college is to provide a supply of trained teachers for primary schools under the management of the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church of Ireland and the Methodist Church. I assumed responsibility for the audit of the accounts of the college in 1994, and accounts since that year are before the committee. In common with the other educational institutions, the college did not have a satisfactory system of recording and accounting for fixed assets, but I am glad to say this problem has since been resolved.
I will now allow each accounting officer to make a brief opening statement before questions.
In the information note I have submitted to the committee I outlined the organisation, role and functions of the NUI and described the NUI financing arrangement as well as the legislative provisions and procedures governing our accounts. Regarding the accounts being discussed, there are a number of key factors ranging over that period, four of which are most prominent. The income based on the £35 student charge collected by the NUI constituent universities and forwarded to the NUI was changed on the advice of our auditor in terms of the timing of receipt. This was done in order to reapportion the times we received this income on an academic rather than calendar year basis. This led to a restatement of the 1994 and 1995 accounts.
Following harmonisation of accounts across the universities, fixed assets were depreciated as directed by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the general reserve now requires that all fixed assets are matched by reserve representing their financing.
In 1992, a capital reserve was created in anticipation of some refurbishments of the order of £153,000. In 1997, £108,000 of that was used and the balance was used in 1998. In 1998, a change in investment policy where there was a switch from 100% equity holding to 50% equity and 50% gilts to generate more income resulted in a gain on disposal which shows up in 1998. They are the main features.
Thank you.
I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. The Comptroller and Auditor General has explained some of the background to the college. The college was established in 1875 to meet the needs of providing teacher education for the primary system and that remains our defining goal although our activities have expanded over the years to include special and remedial education and in-service and post-graduate courses for teachers, in addition to undergraduate and post-graduate courses in the humanities. The college has undergone a period of transition in recent years. Its administration was in the care of the Vincentian community since its establishment until last September at which stage the Vincentian Fathers withdrew from the administration of the college and, following a public competition, I was appointed as the college's first lay president.
Student numbers have risen dramatically over the past decade from 683 in 1989-90 to 1,642 in the current year. In the past year or two, there has also been a considerable increase in the number of academic staff from 58 to 86. The number of support staff has decreased from 66 to 54 over the same period. In terms of the campus, the growth in student numbers has imposed considerable pressures. In addition to the main buildings and the student residences, the college includes a practising school, an education research centre, a teachers' centre and a crèche.
Last year, the Minister for Education and Science asked the major colleges of education to prepare development plans to meet the needs of the pressure created by the increased numbers in teacher education. The college has met that request; we have been in the discussion with the Department and the Higher Education Authority and hope to see the commencement of a building programme in the near future. That building programme will be part of a wider strategic planning process to respond to changed circumstances in the wider educational environment, particularly in regard to teacher education and to respond to specific Government initiatives in regard to the review of teacher education, the revised primary curriculum, the White Paper on early childhood education, a new focus on science in primary education, information and communication technology, etc. The college has prepared a strategic plan which will be adopted by the governing body over the summer and which will set out the college's position on and responses to these areas. We look forward to discussing those with the major stakeholders in the college, including the Department and the HEA.
In regard to internal structure, the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned that the manager has devolved his role in terms of the college's governance to a governing body, chaired by Professor Michael Heraty. The senior management committee comprises the bursar, president and registrar. The governing body has an internal audit in the form of an audit committee established last year on which there is external representation. The college's internal academic affairs are regulated by an academic council of which all full-time staff are members. Under the linkage agreement of 1993 with Dublin City University, we have a joint faculty of education and a joint faculty of humanities.
Our funding is derived from student fees, a core grant from the Higher Education Authority and a small residual income from conferences. The funding is provided to the college by the Higher Education Authority in a dedicated budget which comes to the college via DCU. We have an annual budget meeting with the HEA. The college accounts are audited annually by Price Waterhouse and the statutory auditor is the Comptroller and Auditor General. In terms of the fixed asset register, the college has always had a register in regard to computer and audio-visual equipment. In response to comments made in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s reports, the college has been moving towards the establishment of a general fixed assets register. That work was delayed somewhat through difficulties in acquiring the appropriate software but the Pegasus Opera software has now been installed and the inventory of assets has been completed. We hope to have the computerised fixed assets register fully operational by the end of the financial year in September.
Thank you.
I have a brief opening statement which I would like to circulate and will provide a brief summary of its contents.
For future reference, material for circulation should be submitted in advance of meetings.
The college was originally established in 1950 from a property owned by the order at the time. Teacher training certification at that time was awarded by the Department of Education. The college subsequently became a recognised college of the National University of Ireland in 1978. Our operations under the NUI are carried out through the NUI, Galway. With the passage of time and in order to give graduates greater flexibility in the teaching profession, the degree was further developed to include elective subjects such as biology or religious education in order that graduates would be qualified to teach these subjects to leaving certificate honours level. The college's graduates are primarily employed in second level schools but are also employed in special education for people with physical and mental handicap, Youthreach, community programmes, etc. The number of students taking home economics at second level is approximately 40,000 and the subject is becoming increasingly popular. Regrettably, it is still largely gender specific, a trend which is reflected in the undergraduate population.
Applications for places in the college are in the region of 1,200 per annum, approximately 700 of which are among students' first three choices. The Department of Education and Science caps the intake of students to the course at 25 per year. That limit rebounds onto the points required for admission to the college which are in the range of 435-475. Residential accommodation is available on campus for approximately 40 students. The college is directly funded by the Department of Education and Science and is managed by a board of governors which includes representatives of the university staff, students and trustees' nominees. The college has 13 full-time academic staff and 12 full-time support staff.
I stress that this does not provide a full picture of St. Angela's although it describes the college's core activities and the elements of its activities directly under the Department of Education and Science for which the accounts are currently under review. In addition to the 100 students, a further 500 studentsfrom an area which extends from Donegal to Mayo and Roscommon receive masters, degree, diploma and certificate level qualifications . The college operates a general and mental handicap nursing programme which is due to become fully integrated into third level in 2002 with the introduction of the full-time degree in nursing.
NUI Galway has established a full-time BA Economic and Social Studies degree in St. Angela's. From September two new part-time degree programmes will be introduced, a BA in sociology and/or psychology and a BN in nursing. I mention these because the nature of the college at first sight might seem very small. However, we have a proven track record of extension and expansion without a lot of support.
Thank you, Sr. Marianne. I now call on Mr. Blain, Church of Ireland College of Education.
As you have been informed already, we are one of the five colleges of education concerned with primary school teacher preparation. We have a particular responsibility for providing an adequate supply of teachers for primary schools under the management of the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church and the Methodist Church. Together with St. Mary's, Marino, which is run by the Christian Brothers and Froebal College, Blackrock, which is run by the Dominican Sisters, we have an association with Trinity College. Students from the three colleges attend certain courses in common in the university and other courses in their own colleges. This fairly unique arrangement is reflected in an item of annual expenditure in the college accounts.
In the accounts you will find reference to Coláiste Mobhí which was originally one of the preparatory colleges. It was later reduced in status to a juniorate of the college offering a Leaving Certification education through the medium of Irish to those who wished to become primary teachers. From 1968 to 1995, when it was finally decided to close down the college, it was situated on the college campus. Following the closure of Coláiste Mobhí in 1995, the Department sanctioned a series of measures designed to maintain the standard of Irish in the college. The most significant feature of a number of measures is an intensive course in Irish which takes place each year in September/October before the formal commencement of the academic year.
Members will find reference to expenditure on this in the accounts, as well as reference to Kildare play school. That is the practising school of the college. It is an ordinary national school situated on the college campus. The running costs of the school are contained in the college accounts. The name of the school derives from the fact that from 1811 to 1968, both the school and the college were situated very near to where we are now in Kildare Place on the site occupied by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. College buildings which are now situated on the Upper Rathmines Road were erected in the 1960s and provided for an annual intake of 25 students. That gives a total enrolment of 75 students. Since 1995, this figure has been greatly exceeded, resulting in a degree of overcrowding. The college has made application to the Department of Education and Science for additional physical resources to permit the admission of increased student numbers.
Apart from training primary school teachers, the college has an active interest in the in-career development of teachers. With the assistance of the in-career development unit of the Department of Education and Science, the college offers a highly regarded course in remedial education for teachers in primary and secondary schools. Recently the Department has also approved a national programme for training for resource teachers in second level schools. This programme includes courses of training some lasting 13 weeks, 4 weeks and one week, together with seminars and meetings. It will provide much needed support for teachers who have responsibility for young people with special educational needs at second level. Members will note that for some years the college has actively pursued a policy of maximising income from its own resources. The letting of student accommodation during vacation periods, together with the provision of rooms and facilities for courses and conferences by outside bodies, has resulted in the financial income detailed in the accounts for the various years under consideration.
The college works in close co-operation with its funding agency, the Department of Education and Science, in particular with the higher education and colleges section, the inspectorate and in-career development unit of the Department. We are grateful for the support and advice we receive from officials of the Department and for the careful consideration given to any proposals or problems we pose from time to time.
In common with other colleges of education, last year we submitted a development plan to the Department of Education and Science. If implemented, this would result in greatly increased student numbers, the introduction of a range of new courses and opportunities for teachers, some possibly for parents, and increased utilisation of the valuable resources with which we have been provided in Rathmines. We look forward to an early and positive response from the Department.
Thank you, Mr. Blain. Can you tell me more about your development plan and the increased numbers in the colleges? Is there a need for more places?
Yes, there is. For the last number of years the demand for trained teachers has greatly exceeded supply. An expert committee is sitting at present and many people in education expect it will recommend an increase in the present three year course to a four year course. We envisage an increase of in the region of 50 or 60 students per year to the B.Ed. programme.
What is the present number?
Our present intake is approximately 30 or 32 students.
That is more than double.
Yes, with an appropriate number of those reserved for members of Churches in the Protestant tradition, but expanding and making places available to other candidates who would not meet those criteria. We have not the facilities in terms of staff or accommodation to mount a post-graduate entry to teacher education at present. We hope to be able to offer such a course in future, together with a range of other courses of a post-graduate and in-service nature which are already available in some of the larger colleges.
Would the increased intake require additional buildings?
It would require additional buildings because while the buildings we have are fine, they are small. They were originally designed to admit 20 to 25 students per year and library, art room and music facilities were likewise designed for small numbers of students. The numbers required today were not envisaged with the college was planned and erected in the sixties.
What is the gender balance of students?
Heavily in favour of females. We never have more than four or five male students in the college. That has been a feature of the college for many years.
Four or five per year or in total?
Unfortunately, in total.
Is it the same in St. Patrick's?
The figures are 85% female among the student teacher population. Up to 1971 it was an all male college and it is now 85% female.
There is a problem enticing men in particular into teaching?
On the NUI, there was a gain on investments of £586,000 in 1998. On investments purchased for approximately £65,000, you realised approximately £650,000. What were the investments?
Bank of Ireland, AIB and Irish Life.
At the moment, you have investments valued at £700,000 and a market capitalisation of approximately £1.3 million? Why did you decide to go 50-50 between gilts and equity?
The reason was to generate more income. There had been significant capital appreciation and a decision was made to switch to a mix in investments. A number of other funds are being developed on the basis of donations and bequests down through the decades and these are targeted essentially at awards in the forms of scholarships, bursaries, prizes and so on. On the same basis, they had appreciated significantly over the last ten years and it was felt——
Are all of those bequests included in the accounts?
No, this is just the Revenue account.
But in the balance sheet there are investments and costs. Are the bequests included in the balance sheet?
No, they are not.
How much is there in bequests? What is the value of the total?
The total value would be approximately £11 million.
And that £11 million, is that in cash or gilts or equities?
It is in that mix now. It would be predominantly in equities but because they essentially are used to provide top scholarships in the exams it was felt that the more of those that could be generated the better. Per annum, about £600,000 is provided in prizes and awards and about 120 students compete for those at highest levels.
And the £600,000 in prizes and awards, are they included in the accounts?
No.
They are not reflected in the accounts. Does the NUI have responsibility for them?
For the awards?
For the awards.
Yes. They are described in detail in our booklet on awards.
On the Comptroller and Auditor General, why is that not noted or taken into account in some way in the audit?
I would feel it is desirable that this should be the case. NUI is not unique in this respect. This is an issue which might have to be addressed across third level institutions generally. It is something that has come up once or twice in our discussions with the Higher Education Authority in relation to what has to be done post-harmonisation of the accounts. I would have a view that while these are not public moneys - these are private moneys of the NUI - there should be some kind of composite accounts which show the total financial activity of the organisation,whether it be the NUI or some of the other third level educational institutions. That is the subject of ongoing discussion - to use that terrible euphemism - with the Higher Education Authority and the colleges in the post-harmonisation of accounts.
To whom would the NUI be accountable in relation to those bequests?
Internally, as I outlined in the information note, it would be the finance committee and then the senate. All the details are reported there.
Let us go to the finance committee then. Apart from what it says here they are supposed to do, what do they do?
Every matter that relates to the finances of the institution comes before that committee. With regard to all decisions, recommendations on those are made to the senate and they come again in that form to the senate with all the appropriate documentation. All of the changes that would have led to the awards - every single aspect of that - would have gone in a composite document on all aspects of it.
What sort of qualifications would the members of the finance committee have in relation to financial matters?
The finance committee would consist of members of the senate because the senate appoints the members of the finance committee. I would think broad representation would be the first criterion but there is no specific criterion. In so far as the senate itself is constituted by representatives from each of the constituent universities, four appointed by the Government and eight elected by the members of Convocation, it would try to reflect that type of representation in the finance committee. It would include the four presidents of the constituent universities, the registrars and then other members.
Would they be academics based in subjects that would be less numeric rather than an actuary or someone in that regard?
I can only tell you that they come from the 40 people who are on the senate and would probably also be members of the finance committees in their own institutions.
From time to time they make such inspection and examination of the university accounts and such inquiries as to expenditure. How often do they actually meet?
Four times in the year. There is a budget meeting at April and everyone has all the details.
With the economy so strong what is the position with regard to graduates going forward to do post-graduate degrees? Is there a tendency for the cream of the crop - the 1:1s and 2:1s - to be recruited by industry and a smaller number go forward to do higher degrees than in the past? Is there a problem for the future that the universities may not have the same academic excellence or brilliance as they have had in the past?
There are changes, just as there were changes going back to when times were a bit more difficult. You would have seen an increase in the number of post-graduates, many remaining on because there were not opportunities out there. Then you had other developments like the funded programmes which led to a proliferation of one year taught Masters programmes, many of which were targeted. Then you have pure research degrees. There is some concern that the number of Ph.D.s would continue and that there would not be any barriers to that in any shape or form.
On that point, what is being done to ensure the numbers are kept up? Is anything open to you to do to keep up numbers?
We encourage as much as we can. That is why we try to provide many of these scholarships and prizes so that they now reach post-doctoral level as well as doctoral. Down through the years when there were no other awards or scholarships we had, uniquely, the travelling studentship award which allowed them to travel to the most reputable universities across the world. They came back and joined the staffs of the universities within the NUI and that has been going on and has been one of the success stories. That is the sort of encouragement we give. I agree with the Deputy. There is a pull in the market and people now, at certain ages, are making decisions because of the opportunities that are open to them which would not have been there three or four years ago.
Is it a problem that the senate of NUI is concerned about?
All these matters are brought to its attention because you have the four presidents there and these are certainly issues of concern. We try to do whatever we can. There are other aspects of this that are relevant as well. In so far as trying to prevent Ph.D. students from incurring expenses that might make a difference to their continuing, these are particularly important issues.
To prevent them incurring what expenses?
To continue on for three or four years doing a Ph.D., to hang in there and finish out can be more difficult for some students than for others.
Because of the opportunities that are available outside.
Certainly the attractions are there. I do not see a pattern. We are not unmindful of this. I know that post-graduate numbers are decreasing now.
I now wish to refer to St. Patrick's College. It appears there is a shortage of primary school teachers. I understand that the GAA and other sports clubs seek to avail of the services of teachers while on leave of absence. The Department of Education and Science, however, will only sanction leave of absence for secondary school teachers. It will not do so for primary school teachers because of the shortage of numbers. Yet, you say there was an increase in the number of teachers from 683 in 1989 to 1,642 last year. Will the supply problem be resolved in the near future?
I expect that it will in the next couple of years. There has been a huge increase in intake to the colleges of education to meet demand, which it is fair to say was not predicted. It was the result of a number of factors, including demographic changes, the economic climate and immigration. Notwithstanding the huge increase in intake, there are schools which are having difficulties in recruiting teachers. As a result the Department of Education and Science is supporting a policy under which the numbers will be expanded as rapidly as possible. For example, it introduced a new graduate course on a cyclical basis to enable those who hold a degree to become primary school teachers. An additional cohort was taken in in January to meet demand. I understand it is proposed to take in a further cohort in the near future.
The Department of Education and Science, therefore, is responding. The expectation is that the problem will be dealt with in the medium term. Student numbers in all of the colleges of education are expanding rapidly. The colleges of education accept their responsibility to provide well trained teachers to the numbers required by the system.
How has the points entry requirement changed during the past ten years?
Surprisingly, in spite of the explosion in intake, it has held up unusually well. In trebling intake one would have expected the points level to come down. It has come down slightly but Ireland remains unique in the western world in the quality of the intake to teacher education. Unlike any other country, it remains the case that the teacher supply is drawn from the top cohort of leaving certificate students. That is the reason the education system has prospered.
I have always believed that trainees in St. Patrick's College are tremendously dedicated individuals. I do not know when the college was founded——
It was founded in 1875.
——but that can be said of my teachers who probably went to the college in the 1930s and 1940s and, from the people I know, it appears to have continued. I would like to think that there is the same level of dedication. Is that the perception?
It remains the case that there is an enormous level of dedication but there is no point in saying that there is no crisis. Teaching is a much more difficult and demanding job. The public's perception of the role of the teacher has changed to the point where it has diminished. That is a real issue, and it is not simply a gender issue. While teaching will be as important, if not more so, in the school of the future and the new age, unfortunately, in some ways the status of the teacher in society has declined——
As against TDs, for instance.
Others are suffering the same fate.
There may be a general malaise. There is a policy issue. I understand——
What is the policy issue? Is this not just a feature of a more educated society, that there is less deference for everybody?
No, I am not suggesting that there should be deference——
Are you not educating us?
I educate students and teachers to question, to be critical and analytical. I am not talking about deference but about respect for a position in society. If people are of the view that their role in society is not valued——
Are you not being a little sanctimonious? Solicitors, the clergy and other professionals have had the same experience. They are no longer held in awe. We know this very well. Generally, this is a good thing.
In general, it is a good thing. The current five year theme of OECD Ministers is "lifelong learning". They have decided that the next five year theme should be "the teacher". In the 21st century the teacher will be more rather than less important. It behoves all professions to look at the status of the profession within wider society. If the role of the teacher is not valued and the cream of our young people decide that teaching is not a career that they should pursue, in the long-term it is an issue about which the Celtic tiger should worry.
Who is saying that teachers do not have status and teaching is not a career one should pursue?
There is a wider perception. The American Secretary for Education, Richard Reilly, spoke about this subject in Belfast the week before last. He said that over the next ten years two million teachers will be needed in the United States to resolve the crisis. They cannot obtain quality——
Teachers in the United States are not paid nearly as well as teachers here. Pay is not the only item which reflects status. Who is saying that teaching is not a career one should pursue?
I do not think anybody is saying it explicitly but there is a perception. Like many others, I have a family. In career guidance if one speaks to children about suitable careers the reality is that there is a perception, which is wrong. Teaching is a wonderful, very fulfilling and important career. All I am saying is that it is important that the role of the teacher in society is acknowledged and underpinned. I would say the same about other professions.
This is special pleading. I do not see the argument. I am trying to get to the point of why fewer men become teachers and whether this is a problem. Is it a question of money, status or motivation? What are the implications for students? Does not having a balance in teaching present a problem?
It is a question of status. There have been studies of the feminisation of different professions. As the status of the profession declines there is a tendency for fewer men to enter. That is a significant issue. It is important to have a balance in all professions and areas. It would be good for children in terms of role models to have a well balanced teaching profession. This is widely accepted and supported by most people.
I wish to ask you about the crèche that you mentioned specifically in your opening statement. It is most important that good child care facilities are made available to improve everyone's opportunities. To what use is the crèche put? Is it fully utilised? Will more people use it in the future?
It is run on a licence and is intended and required by the funding authorities to be self-financing. It is fully utilised in its current premises. As there has been considerable growth in the number of mature students in the college - 25% of places on our BA programme are reserved for mature students - there is a growing demand for places in the crèche which I see becoming more rather than less important. There is another factor which will increase its significance in the college, that is, the White Paper on Early Childhood Education, which has foreshadowed considerable development in this area. I anticipate that the college will be expanding its activities in the area of early childhood, and having a crèche located close to student placements and so on, in the same way as having a practising school, would be very important for our activities.
Are suitable crèche facilities available for any mature student or staff member who requires them?
Crèche facilities are available and we are seeking to make them as suitable and as appropriate as possible.
They are available to any-body who needs them. Is there room in the crèche?
At the moment it is moving from one building to another and, when it moves, there will be adequate space in it for mature students or any staff who require it. There would be restrictions on casual use, if somebody turns up on a Friday, for example. Within the normal operations of a crèche, there will be adequate room by September.
That is excellent.
On the accounts, we like to have accounts as simple as possible because we are fairly simple people and want to be able to understand them. Perhaps Dr. Travers could explain what is on page 14 of the capital account, because to me it is gobbledegook. What exactly are the movements therein?
Page 14 of the 1998 account?
That is right, note 7. What are the movements within that and why are they in that account?
Could I confirm that——
Dr. Travers is Presidentof a college. Surely he is not going to presentto us with information he himself cannot understand.
I am keen to give the fullest answer possible. I will, with permission, confer with my colleague.
Can Dr. Travers explain exactly why they are in that account?
I am advised that the amount in the account is the balance as at 1 October.
Let us just deal with the capital account.
It is the capital that has accumulated in the account.
Why is it not included in the accumulated surplus? Can Dr. Travers explain that? The capital account normally would include accumulated surplus, would it not? How was that arrived at? What is the origin of a capital account?
I am advised that the figure in the transfer to income expenditure account is a purchase of fixed assets for the year, and the depreciation is taken off that account.
That is real gobbledegook from the point of view of standard accounting practice.
If the committee would like a more detailed reply, I would be happy to provide a written response.
Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General could elucidate.
It is consistent with best accounting practice. I can assure the committee of that. It is a means of taking some of the State funds that the Exchequer grants in a year and taking an allocation of that for capital while at the same time providing for depreciation. That is it in its most simple form. I can give the committee a note on the finer points of it, but that is the principle, and it is a principle that works. It is a way of amortising the capital over a period. The committee will see that the capital account figures are in line with the breakdown of the book value of the fixed assets in note 3.
Would you accept that it is difficult to understand?
Yes, sometimes. Of course it is difficult for a layman to understand.
You are not accusing Deputy Ardagh of being a layman in this respect?
Certainly not. It is the best way of showing this. I am convinced of that. It is something that we have brought in as part of the harmonisation process. To a certain extent I have some sympathy for St. Patrick's College. It is conforming to the harmonised format which was worked out over a period of years.
Let us have a note within one month from today.
Could I ask Sr. Marianne a short question?
Yes.
In regard to the assets which are not in the book, who owns those?
There is no register of fixed assets. Is that correct?
We have initiated the compilation of a fixed assets register. It is almost complete. We have just advertised for assistance for a six week sharp input, because it needs to be input into the computer. We are very under-resourced administratively. We have one bursar. The accountant who appears here resides in Dublin and is an outside accountant. The bursar here on my left is the one and only person we have. We do not have any clerical assistance whatsoever.
I accept that. There is no problem with that.
It is very difficult to do, but we are striving to do it. We do hope to achieve it and complete it in six months.
The question was who owns the assets, the buildings and the land and all of the equipment. Who owns the buildings and the land?
I anticipated this question, and I am not sure if I have an answer to it. Let me be as brief as I can and give a history. It can be seen from the picture that there are three main blocks. The first building was totally funded by the Order. Subsequent buildings have been partially or completely funded by the Department of Education and Science, so there is a mixed basis. Senior counsel advice is that if it is built on one's land one owns it. However, I recognise the ambiguity of that in real life and what might transpire, and I think that in all equity, justice and reasonable logic, there would be an even distribution of resources back to the origins from which they came if such were to occur. Does that give a fair picture?
So the Ursuline Order are claiming ownership of some——
No, it is not. What I am saying is that the Ursuline Order could. I am not saying the Ursuline Order would.
Could I ask Mr. McDonagh about this? I am sure this is not unique. Almost all our schools——
Are mixed.
——are owned by the Church but they are funded by the Department of Education and Science. What do you say, Mr. McDonagh, about this? What should be done about it or what can be done about it? I note that in respect of St. Patrick's there is an indenture saying that if it is ever disposed of it should revert to the State. Should we not have some agreement with the Ursuline Order for the future of the lands if it should ever cease to be in education?
I would agree with you on that, Mr. Chairman. We should try to have some clarity on it. I must confess that it is not my area of expertise and I would have to revert to my colleagues in the capital building branch who deal with matters like this. However, I could arrange to have your query and concern brought to their attention and have a note prepared for the committee on it if that is desired.
Yes, that is something we should ask for. We would ask the Order and Sr. Marianne and the Department of Education and Science, through you, to come back to us with a note on how you propose to address this issue. What we want is for both to look at the issue and see what arrangements might be put in place by agreement so that there is clarity in the future. How many acres of land is there, Sister?
Eighty.
Eighteen?
Eighty.
It looks lovely. It is just outside Sligo.
It is about three miles from Sligo, yes. It is on the edge of the lake. As you look at the picture, the lake is at the bottom of the page.
Is it zoned? Obviously it is zoned. For what is it zoned?
It has not been zoned. The building on the left which is the old original stone building - as you will see from the picture - has recently been listed and we have appealed it because it forms part of the total campus but I imagine we will not get anywhere with theappeal.
Sr. O'Connor implied that there was a separation in the accounts between activities and that there were other activities which were not accounted for within the accounts. One can be very inventive in relation to accounting for different activities depending on where expenses go in one case and their income. What are the other income generating or expense incurring activities? How have you separated out the various costs and income to ensure that the full income is attributed here and that only the expenses that are incurred for the courses and the training facility are actually incurred and that they are represented here?
Perhaps I could explain why we have these extra activities. In the first instance, because our intake is capped at a total of 100 students over four years, it was of concern to us in regard to viability and so on. Diversification was an important element of our development. Second, because of our geographical location in the north west, we were cognisant and aware that we should be contributing to the development of the north west by assisting in the provision of third-level education. They were the two platforms from which we began to diversify in the late 1980s.
The result of that is that there is a wide roster of courses which caters for 500 students approximately. They are totally self-funding. We get no assistance from anybody or anywhere. The students pay the fee and they are mostly part-time. The income funds the courses. If there is any surplus, which really does not arise except a very small amount, it is put into a development fund which we have used for ongoing renovations and so on. How they are kept apart on the accounting system is that they are rigorously kept apart. We assign to each course a cost for the use of the room so that there is no hidden subsidy coming from B.Ed. course towards the other courses. That is rigorously applied and those accounts are available for inspection. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.
That is grand. Thank you.
What is the total number of student places available through the NUI? What is the number of new entrants in any one year?
Would it be 40,000 students overall?
I am doing a quick tot in my head; 8,500——
Of an intake.
I am thinking of constituent universities and the recognised colleges.
On an annual basis.
According to figures from the colleges.
To what extent do you feel you can meet today's requirements? For example, we all have experience of the points system and how one year it may indicate an opening for a particular student who wishes to pursue a particular course. When the time comes they may find following examination of their points that the number required has been changed from the previous year and they now have to go overseas. Equine science is one that comes to mind. What is anything can be done to meet that part of the market?
There is the mature student route, a route through which many people who may not have come——
I am not talking about the mature student but the fifth year student who looks at what is available for next year and targets a particular area. Having regard to the points requirement in the current year they are in the market place, following the leaving certificate, and the goalposts have been shifted and they can no longer make it because of the huge increase in the number of points required in that area. I have dealt with a number of cases where students have to go overseas. It must be very frustrating for the students. To what extent does the NUI examine that problem and target the area. While you do not have control over everything there may be something that can be done to alleviate the problem for such persons.
It is not clear to me. Is the Deputy saying they do not get any offer? I have a daughter doing the leaving certificate. She may or may not get what she wants but she will have specified something, so then it is a matter——
She will not get anything. She will have to go overseas to study.
So they go overseas to study to a university.
Yes.
Then they get a qualification from that university.
They do, but that is not my point. I am concerned about the ability of the system here to meet requirements without off-loading them on to other jurisdictions.
The way I would see that is that 20 years ago one needed basic matriculation to get into university and there was a place available. Now the last person in is so much above that in terms of the qualifications which he or she has. Potentially there is that number of people in between. If we had a new university in Ireland in the morning it could be filled.
That is the nub of my question. The question is the degree to which the third level system can meet modern requirements given the disparity in terms of choice available to a student. I think Dr. Nolan has answered near enough. The matter has arisen again and again. The student targets a particular area in fifth year and finds after the leaving certificate that the pattern has changed from the previous year. They now have no chance to get into that area here so their only hope is to go overseas and to study elsewhere.
I suspect that is a question for the Department of Education and Science rather than for——
Well, the issue——
The issue is that because of the competition for places the academic requirements are above what is really necessary or what would have been accepted in the past.
Correct.
There is a supplementary issue which could have cost implications in the future. For example, doctors; the number of points required for medical schools is very high. That means that only those who are highly intellectual get into those schools and there may be people who do not have the personality or other attributes. The same would apply in the case of nursing and possibly in teaching. A balanced personality is needed for that type of job but yet those criteria are not taken into account. Is any consideration given to those points in the Department of Education and Science.
Yes, on a ongoing basis. The Higher Education Authority would also advise the Department on issues such as this. Perhaps it should be put in context. Since 1985 the total stock in third level education has more than doubled. Our student cohort in 1985 was 55,000, this year it is of the order of 112,000-114,000, so that there has been a dramatic expansion in the availability of third level education generally.
In relation to particular disciplines, obviously issues such as this are kept under review. For instance, the medical faculty, doctors, has been subject to what we call a quota or numerus clausus since the 1970s because it was not considered that we needed any more than that number of doctor output. In recent years, as part of the expansion, the Government established a business education enterprise forum, part of which is an expert skills group. That expert skills group has been looking at the priority needs for output of students, graduates, in the Irish economy. Arising from the reports of those groups, we have significantly expanded the number of third level places in information technology, software/hardware engineering and in the technician area.
We are wandering from the subject. Could we be facing a future mismatch by assessing entrants by academic means only in certain areas such as teaching and nursing? Could that present a problem down the road in that people who are brilliantly academic might not be suited in terms of their personality for particular jobs?
There is always that possiblity, but the Points Commission also considered this feature. It considered if the Points Commission best serves the needs of Ireland in terms of the intake of students into university under the points systems. It concluded that the system has deficiencies, but it is the most objective method. I recall that in the late 1980s early 1990s when there was a system in place that involved a good deal of interviewing, the then Ministers received many complaints from students as many of them had to travel around the country for interviews. Interviews or a portfolio is a requirement in certain disciplines such as art and design.
And in music.
It is still a requirement in the case of music. Depending on the institution, an interview was almost a general requirement at one stage and that put a major burden on students and their parents.
It is something you are exercised about?
We are exercised about it.
That is all we need on that.
I accept the increased capacity in terms of places now compared to the 1980s but,. given the economic growth since then, in almost every area where there is an economic or investment requirement we are under-provided for. While we can say we are much better off than we were in the mid-1980s, we were in a recession at that time. This is an economically expansive era which is very different and we must plan and cut our cloth accordingly.
Is there a gender balance among third level students?
The genders are reasonably well balanced. Within certain faculties it might be leaning more one way than the other.
I thought the indications are that the many young males are taking up employment and not completing their education.
Does Mr. Hayden have figures on drop out rates and the gender balance in third level institutes?
We undertook a study some years for the Steering Committee on the Future Development of Higher Education. At that time the retention rate in the universities was 80% and the drop out rate was 20%. We have commissioned a study since then by the Educational——
How long ago was that study completed?
It relates to the early 1990s - people who went to college in 1980s. One has to allow for the duration of——
A new study has been undertaken.
A new study is being carried out by the Educational Research Centre in Drumcondra and a publication on its findings should be available within the next few months.
Am I right in saying there is a higher drop out rate among men than women?
From the preliminary figures I saw, I would not consider that is the case.
What about the position in the colleges of education? Mr. Blain, what is student drop out rate for the Church of Ireland colleges?
We examined that aspect yesterday. Over the period in question, on average one student drops out per year.
One drop out.
One drop out/failure.
What is the position in St. Patrick's?
We have an unusually low drop out rate. Our retention rate - I think it will be borne out by the retention rate study - is unusually high.
Such as what rate, 95%?
More than 95%.
What is the position in St. Angela's?
The drop out rate is extremely low.
Those findings highlight that we have the answer to the status question. Students are not dropping out these colleges, they love education and they would love to be teachers. However, there is a higher drop out rate in other colleges. Does the Deputy admit he was wrong?
The important point is that statistics will reveal trends that might go unnoticed otherwise. It is no harm to keep an eye on them and to ensure they are regularly updated, otherwise we will not be aware of the current position.
On the gender balance question, we are aware that mainly female students attend colleges of education. While that gender trend is not as high in other colleges, is there a gender balance in other third level institutions?
It is roughly 50:50 across the system, although it varies. Engineering is still heavily dominated by males. More than 50% of entrants to the faculty of medicine are female. Arts is still heavily dominated by females, but not entirely so. The gender balance of students taking business studies - an important area in terms of careers - is 50:50. More than 50% of students taking science are female.
What is current gender balance in teacher training colleges?
A total of 85% of the students are female.
How long has that trend been established?
For at least ten years or more.
Two-thirds of the students have been female.
The students in Carysfort were female. We were an all-male institution up to 1971, but from sometime in the 1980s there was a considerable disparity in terms of the female preponderance.
Are you aware of any reasons for that particular imbalance? Does it present problems for schools?
Other things being equal, the disappearance of males from primary teaching gives grounds for concern in terms of role models and so on. I assume there may be something in the nature of teaching that makes it more attractive for one gender rather than the other.
Is it not correct that the need for male role models is greater than ever in certain areas, particularly where there is a high incidence of marital breakdown or single parents? Teachers have said that to me. There is one male teacher and 13 female teachers in one school in my constituency. Teachers consider the lack of male primary teachers is a problem. Is that of concern to the Department and the Higher Education Authority?
It has been a matter of some concern for some time. This position results from a complex range of factors and it is not confined to Ireland. The feminisation, as it is called, of the teaching force is a phenomenon in the western world; I am not certain about other parts of the world. It is exercising the minds of many people. With reference to the upcoming OECD meeting in terms of emphasis on the teacher, I would be surprised if this is not one of the items that forms part of that debate and examination in terms of what gives rise to this phenomenon and how can we address and reverse it. It has been a cause of concern and it has been the subject of debate in the Department. I talked to a number of inspectors about it and there is concern about it.
Are there any other questions?
What is the position on the supply of teachers given that some matters can be self-fulfilling prophesies? In other words, if pupil-teacher ratios are at a particular level, one can identify the number of teachers required, but if that ratio is changed, the number of teachers required may substantially vary.
The Department of Education and Science would be in a better position to comment on the overall position.
What is the position from Dr. Tavers's observations?
A total of 400 B.Ed students will graduate from our college next year, as will another 100 students. A total of 500 teachers will come on stream from our college, and the number is similar in Limerick. There are more teachers graduating now than at any time in the history of the State. Therefore, the supply issue is being addressed. However, individual school boards of management will still find it difficult to fill positions in the immediate future.
Why?
We are addressing the issue. It takes three years for an undergraduate to come through a B.Ed. programme or 12 months for a post-graduate programme to take place. There will always be a slight lag. The issue has been addressed. There has been an explosion in the numbers in teacher education because the problem mentioned was identified and addressed by the Department of Education and Science.
As regards St. Angela's College and the problem of supply and demand, to what extent will the needs of the wider community be met given the trends observed in recent years?
The Higher Education Authority or the Department of Education and Science do not agree with our observation of trends because they carried out surveys on the need for teachers of home economics and they found that the current status is sufficient. However, the college's position is different in that a number of college graduates are employed in areas of education other than second level schools on which the Department's figures are based. Special education Youthreach programmes and numerous community development programmes mean that home economics teachers are highly prized because they are multi-skilled. We have some diversity. We also have anecdotal evidence in that the college is constantly receiving requests for teachers from schools which cannot find teachers.
Are there fewer third level institutions for home economics than there were a few years ago?
There are still the same number of places.
To what extent does the Church of Ireland College of Education feel it is meeting the demands of the marketplace?
The situation for the schools we serve mirrors the situation nationally. We are not keeping pace. There are more vacancies than there are teachers to take up the vacancies available. The reasons for that are well known, such as early retirement, young teachers going abroad, secondments out of the system, job sharing and a variety of other such factors. There is also a certain reluctance among young people, which has become obvious in recent years, to take up teaching posts in small isolated rural schools. That is a problem which affects our community in particular because many of our schools meet that description. They are small, two or three teacher schools in remote areas of Donegal or Cavan. I do not know the answer to that problem. Young people like to stay where there is a good social life and they like to get jobs in big schools where there are many teaching colleagues. The only response is to train annually a larger pool of young teachers than there are places available. By doing so, we hope all the jobs which become available and all the schools which are looking for young teachers will have their expectations fulfilled.
I ask Sr. O'Connor to explain how the college's budget is drafted and controlled and what role she plays in ensuring efficiency and effectiveness and that there is no waste orfraud.
Our budget is devised with the assistance of our accountants and bursar for the academic year. It is submitted to the Department of Education and Science and then negotiated. When the funding is agreed, it comes on the basis of quarterly periods or generally throughout the year. As regards the controls we have in place, I work closely with the bursar and we monitor expenditure on a monthly basis. All the cheques signed come to me for approval and with the requisition forms attached to them. I have a close view of the expenditure in the college.
If a bad egg got into the college and was siphoning off money how would you check it? Are spot checks made and are adequate controls in place?
There are certain cost centres in the college and the people in charge of them are able to make orders, etc. They then must stamp and initial the invoices and approve or not approve them. They must check that what has been ordered has been acquired. They are sent to the bursar who performs another check on them and then they come to me with her approval. I must look at them as well.
I assume you do not have an internal auditor.
We do not have an internal auditor. I am aware that the universities do and that there is an arrangement with the institutes of technology. Because it is a small college, I understand the Department of Education and Science is looking at introducing a system whereby the teacher training colleges will be together under one internal auditing system. It has requested our co-operation in that regard.
Is that the case, Mr. McDonagh?
Yes. We have been trying to do a gradual rollout and we were hoping to draw upon experience. The internal audit system we introduced in the institutes of technology presented us with this problem of scale where smaller colleges probably could not justify a full-time internal audit service. We have a three year contract with a large accounting firm. We will review that position in the institutes of technology to see if a more effective way of doing our business would be to set up a permanent internal audit service. I would like to draw upon the initial experience in that area to see how we might develop a similar procedure for the smaller teaching training colleges.
In doing so, I presume you will consult with the Comptroller and Auditor General and consider taking his views or suggestions on board.
We stay in regular contact with the Comptroller and Auditor General's office on such issues.
What controls does the Church of Ireland College of Education have in place? Does it have an internal auditor?
We do not have an internal auditor. Our position is similar to that described in St. Angela's College. The bursar and I consult on a daily basis about such matters. In addition, a finance committee, which is a sub-committee of the board of governors, meets on a monthly basis and takes decisions and monitors expenditure and purchases. I am sure more could be done. We would be happy to co-operate with any scheme which might be devised by the Department to ensure the type of situation the Chairman envisages does not arise.
Experience tells us that vigilance and preventative measures are better than having tribunals which cost a lot of money in later years. We must learn from experience. Does St. Patrick's College have an internal auditor?
We do not have an internal auditor. The governing body has an audit committee which has external membership, including a senior partner in Deloitte & Touche. The college accounts are audited by Pricewaterhouse Coopers. The budget is prepared by the secretary bursar and brought to a college management committee. There is then a budget meeting with the Higher Education Authority. Monthly and quarterly accounts are prepared. All invoices of expenses are passed by the bursar directly and all orders are signed by the bursar.
As Accounting Officer what interest do you take on this issue?
I chair the management committee that oversees all parts of the process. The largest part of the budget comprises fixed costs and salary costs. The residual is relatively small but vigilance is exercised.
The bursar appears to have a number of responsibilities there.
Cheques are co-signed by the bursar and the president.
Does the president ever pre-sign cheques?
No. I do not pre-sign cheques within the country.
There appears to be a concentration of responsibilities on the bursar. They should be divided.
There should be better checks and balances. It is clear that cheques or blank cheques are never signed in advance.
Never.
That is true everywhere.
I wish to address this question to Sr. O'Connor, Mr. Blain and the Department officials. Can you indicate from a financial point of view why the taxpayer should continue to substantially pay the cost of the operation of privately owned schools without control of their buildings and their function? Why should control continue to be vested in, for example, the local rector, bishop or parish priest? Why should the State not do the same financially as it has done in the health sector? In my town it paid the medical missions £6 million and rightly handed control of the institution concerned to the local health board. Why does the Department of Education and Science not pursue that line and why, in this day and age, should the State not have total control of the education system in Church of Ireland, Protestant or Catholic schools? Is there any need for the continuation of Church of Ireland, Presbyterian or Catholic schools when the taxpayers are effectively footing the bill?
That is a very good question but I suspect it would take approximately three days to discuss it. Would you like to briefly comment on it?
I am sure if the State was to make an offer we might consider it.
I was hoping——
Mr. Blain, would you like to comment?
It depends on the ethos of the school and the importance attached to that. Traditionally, and at present, a very great importance was attached to it in our system. The population figures are such that if children attending Church of Ireland schools were to be integrated with the local Catholic school they would form a very small and insubstantial part of the school population. Many people would be fearful that would be a contributing factor to a loss of identity. Do you wish me to comment further?
No, that is fine. Mr. McDonagh, would you like to comment?
Deputy Bell has raised significant issues. If I may plead on my behalf, it takes me deeply into the realm of policy.
I am concerned with the financial aspect from the point of view of the taxpayers paying the bill and having no say in the administration.
Are you referring to the education system generally or the teacher training colleges? The Department has a significant role in terms of, say, the content, and would have a role with regard to the question of the duration of teacher education. A review committee is sitting at present looking at the whole idea of content and duration of pre-service training. Ultimately, the decisions will be taken by the Minister for Education and Science, so he has a fundamental role in terms of that. The inspectorate in the Department——
I will adjourn this debate, other than to say that as a practising Christian I often wonder why the churches want to continue to control the schools. A few years ago I discovered to my horror that my children leaving school did not know the Ten Commandments. It appears that religion is no longer being taught in schools. I do not know why that is.
This is a very complex, deep seated issue. It has much wider and broader implications than the question would suggest. Sensitivities regarding the religious teaching in schools must be borne in mind. There is a tendency nowadays to ask what the religious are doing in schools. However, for a long time the basic education system was provided and funded by the religious, including the provision of sites for schools and other facilities. As soon as the facilities are there we want them. Of course the taxpayers are entitled to a fair share of the spoils, but a huge investment was made by the religious of all denominations over a long number of years. That should be observed.
Not only should it be observed but we should express our thanks for it. We appreciate it. As a State we are not well positioned by comparison with other states to express thanks. It is no longer an ethos question because it is clear that schools are failing in that regard. It has now become a control issue. From my discussions with other parents it is clear that the ethos is not being delivered. People are leaving the school not knowing the basic tenets of the religious ethos of their school. That is beyond the scope of the committee.
My reply was not intended to be flippant. I agree with the views expressed that this is a highly complex and sensitive issue. I wish to reiterate Deputy Durkan's comments. We are all taxpayers. The State acquired facilities and means of providing education which would not have been there without the investment by the churches.
At enormous sacrifices made by many people over the years.
And a lot of unpaid labour, which continues today in some instances.
Deputy Bell has raised a huge issue which is beyond the scope of the committee.
I am reflecting the views of the man on the street. My job is to ask the question.
You are right to do so.
The taxpayer is paying the bills.
I uphold your right in that respect.
I do not mean any disrespect to any church, but it is important that these issues should be raised at this level and answered by the people responsible.
It is an issue beyond financial control, which is the concern of the committee. It is also beyond the third level sector, part of which we are dealing with today. It is an oblique question and is more than we can deal with today.
We have already agreed that we will have a note from St. Patrick's College and the Department within a month on the accounting of capital. We have also requested a note within two months from today from St. Angela's College and the Department on the residual property issues and whether there should be in this case, and all similar cases, an indenture protecting the taxpayers' interest in the event of any disposal down the line.
I wish to also raise a general question which not only affects the National University of Ireland but also all third level institutions. I refer to legacies and other gifts and whether it is appropriate that these should be excluded from the general accounts of third level institutions. I request that the Department and the Higher Education Authority address this question and provide the committee with a written reply in respect of it within two months.
Are there any other issues to which members wish to refer? No? In that case, we will note the accounts. This is the first occasion on which all of our guests have been before us because the committee only assumed responsibility for this area in recent years. It is our intention to be much more rigorous in our examination of the next accounting year which, for the committee, begins on 1 October. We will be investigating the affairs of a cross-section of colleges in much greater detail next year. I advise our guests that they have been warned. Future examinations will be much more stringent.
Is it agreed that we note the accounts of the National University of Ireland, the Church of Ireland Training College, St. Angela's College of Education for Home Economics and St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra? Agreed.
On behalf of this committee and the Oireachtas I thank our guests for the work they are doing. That work is greatly valued because we realise full well the importance of education and the contribution of religious orders to education. We are not empowered to give our peerages but we do wish to express our thanks. We would be grateful if our guests would pass on those thanks to their staff. The witness are excused.
The witnesses withdrew.
The committee is not meeting next week because the House must deal with urgent Government business. The next meeting of the full committee will be at 10 a.m. on Thursday, 29 June 2000. The issues for discussion at that meeting will be accountability in local authorities, recovery of State legal costs, Votes 36 and 37 - Department of Finance and Army Pensions - Vote 32 - Department of Public Enterprise. The sub-committee will meet in public session to resume the DIRT inquiry on Tuesday next at 9.15 a.m.
