It is difficult to comment on the time span between the Department of Finance making the policy decision and the Department of Health and Children being informed about it given that Mr. Kelly has not stated the date on which the request for information was made. I will assume it is a short period. For clarification purposes, it is necessary to define this short period using exact dates.
I would have thought that, when the request was made of the Department of Health and Children, regardless of the timeframe involved, all the information relative to each health board would have been at hand in the Department and that it would have had all that it required to do the sums, as it were, on the proposal.
No amount of dressing up this problem can take away from the fact that, in business terms, it is a disaster to have this type of leak of money. It was referred to as a serious weakness, but the first thought that came to my mind when I heard about it was that it was a shambles. Surely that is a more accurate description rather than a serious weakness. A comment was made about being in an ideal world. Perhaps we should connect to the real world because, in business, all the required figures must be available. If a business does not have that information, it cannot make correct decisions. The Department did not make the right decision because the basis for its decision was wrong.
The management systems within the Department of Health and Children and each health board are in question. The assumption made was not just wrong - it was out by a mile. While Mr. Kelly says the Department is reviewing its system from here on, the question arises as to what happened prior to 2001. What is going to happen to the systems that were in place and which gave the wrong information? It is almost an excuse to say e-government will deal with this. Yes, it will but that is in the future. My questions relate to this error of sizeable proportion and what happened previously. What is the cost implication prior to 2001? How long will it take to measure the cost in terms of this system error and change?
A question was raised about GPs notifying the board about change. Surely it is the responsibility of the paying officer or health board to have traceability in terms of the system and to have the systems monitored continuously. Therefore, is it not the management skills of the chief executive officer in each case, be it eight, ten or 11, that is in question here, because they gave the wrong information? How many health boards gave the wrong information or is each health board at fault? Is it a fact that each health board does not have information on the services it is administering? The Chairman gave an example of another area. I was appalled when I heard the story but I related it to a question I asked in the Dáil about suppliers to health boards being paid for supplies they have not provided. When one health board was advised, it was difficult to have the cheque returned, which is a product of this kind of system. Is it the case that this system must be examined and it must be spread across the systems within the board itself?
A question was asked about the number of employees. I though the Department of Health and Children would have had a running list of employees engaged under each separate heading. Will each health board be in a position to provide a list of the number of employees in each health board area, dealing with each specific area of health board administration, so that we can define how many are in this area dealing with the systems that have provided the wrong information and what exercise is required to decide how many more people are needed, what IT systems are required or how many will be using those IT systems? That decision cannot be made until the number of employees is made available.
On recouping money and making a comparison with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, where a person on the margins is deducted 50 cent, €1 or €2 a week immediately an over-payment is discovered, is the committee being told that sometime in the future when there is time to define the over-payments and allocate each over-payment to each GP, some sort of agreement will be reached with their representative body to recoup them? That is the opposite to how it works for people who cannot defend themselves that easily and who are made to pay on the day. What will happen in that area?