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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2009

Chapter 12.3 — Subvention to the Pensions Board. Social Insurance Fund 2007.

Ms Bernadette Lacey(Secretary General, Department of Social and Family Affairs), called and examined.

We are looking at the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General as well as the appropriation accounts, Vote 38 — Department of Social and Family Affairs, chapter 12.1 — overpayments, chapter 12.2 — prosecutions, chapter 12.3 — subventions to the Pensions Board and the Social Insurance Fund 2007.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings.

These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make written and oral submissions; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Bernadette Lacey, Secretary General of the Department of Social and Family Affairs and call on her to introduce her officials.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Thank you. With me is Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, director general of social welfare services, Ms Siobhán Lawlor, principal officer with responsibility for the accounts branch of the Department, Ms Joan McMahon, principal officer responsible for the control area and Mr. Eoin O'Broin the director of our the regions.

We have people present from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

I am a principal officer in the redundancy, insolvency and employment section of the Department.

Mr. David Denny

I am a principal officer on the staffing side of the sectoral policy division.

Mr. Fred Foster

I work on the programme side.

I thank all the officials and welcome them to the committee. I call on Mr. Buckley to introduce Vote 38 — Department of Social and Family Affairs. The full text of chapter 12 can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Department of Social and Family Affairs makes welfare payments out of voted funds and those insurance funds derived from PRSI contributions. Just over half of its spending, €8.2 billion in 2007, came from voted funds and is accounted for in the appropriation accounts before the committee this morning. The balance, €7.3 billion in 2007, came from social insurance contributions.

Overall, it administered welfare payments of €15.5 billion in 2007 under around 50 separate schemes. This level of spending in 2007 represented almost one quarter of all taxes, PRSI and levies collected in the year, or around 10% of gross national product, GNP. Social welfare costs increased by 14% over 2006. When we exclude administration, €15 billion was applied under the following broad headings: pensions — €3.9 billion; support for families and children — €4.8 billion; illness, disability and caring — €2.9 billion; jobseeker's support — €1.4 billion; supplementary welfare — €0.7 billion; and some miscellaneous payments — €1.3 billion.

Chapter 12 of the annual report for 2007 dealt with three main issues, welfare payments, which were made in excess of entitlement, prosecution activity of the Department and the write-off of a subvention to the Pensions Board. Turning first to the overpayments and prosecutions, one feature of welfare administration is the need to balance the speed of response to client need with the necessity to ensure the entitlement of recipients to the payment is established. As a result, there is risk that payments may issue to which there is no entitlement. To the extent that incorrect payments, whether due to fraud or error, are identified, they are recorded by the Department and listed for recovery. During 2007 the Department identified €55 million in payments that had been made in 2007 and in previous years which were in excess of entitlements. Some €21.4 million of these were attributed by the Department to fraud. On a cumulative basis, €232 million in payments in excess of entitlement had been identified and remained unrecovered at 31 December 2007. In that year the recoveries were €23.9 million. A total of €1.6 million of fraudulent overpayments were the subject of 222 criminal prosecutions in 2007. The detail of this is set out in table 41 of the report. A total of 882 cases were being considered for prosecution at the end of that year.

The Department can take civil as well as criminal cases. These civil cases, of which there is a small number each year, can result in decrees, instalment orders or out of court settlements. In the case of employer breaches, the Department took 16 cases to court in 2007.

The Pensions Board should be self funding, as it levies its costs on the pension industry. In 2002, a new form of pension product — the personal retirement savings account, or PRSA — was launched. Supervision of the administration of the product was given to the Pensions Board. It was recognised that until the level of PRSA activity and the associated fees were sufficient to fund the supervision activities, bridging funding would be needed by the board. However, the take up of PRSAs was lower than projected, and as a result, the income generated by fees was insufficient to meet the cost of supervision. The Department has written off €8.1 million. The reason we raised this issue with the Department was because at the same time the Department was writing off the €8.1 million, the Pensions Board had considerable reserves and continues to have them. Its current free reserves are around €6 million, after taking account of the money it needs to fund its fixed assets.

Some of this extra revenue is built up due to the identification by the board of schemes in arrears and the collection of associated income. There was also a general increase in the number of pension schemes and the membership of existing schemes. The Department believes this balance will be reduced over time, as future fee levels are set somewhat lower. The board is also projecting a reduction over the next three years, but it maintains that the current reserves are necessary to meet its own pension obligations, to meet unforeseen costs and to maintain the capacity to take legal actions and guard against the volatility in its fee income.

Our concern is that the setting of Pension Board fees needs to be reviewed more often, perhaps on a rolling annual basis. The last review before this report was in 2002. Since we have moved into an era of heavy State borrowing, consideration needs to be given to using modern treasury management techniques to consolidate the cash balances of State bodies.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I thank the Chairman and the committee members for giving me the opportunity to address them on the issues raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. I will address the issues in paragraphs 12.1, 12.2 and 12.3 in the report, and I will speak on the issues of risk management and internal audit in the Department, as requested by the committee. I will make a short comment on the growth in the live register in recent months and its impact on the Department.

The Department administers more than 50 schemes. It processes in excess of 2 million claims per year, makes approximately 1 million payments each week and a further 500,000 on a monthly basis. There are almost 5,000 people working in the Department, spread across the 145 offices in 12 headquarters buildings, 62 local offices and a number of inspectors' offices. In addition, 62 branch offices provide claim services to the public on a contract basis. In 2007, the budget for the Department stood at €15.5 billion while this year it will exceed €20 billion.

Given the size of the organisation, its remit and its budget, it is inevitable that over payments arise through fraud or error. In 2007, overpayments amounted to some €50 million, which was equal to 0.34% of total social welfare expenditure. Although the level of overpayments form just 0.33% of expenditure, we are conscious of our obligation to protect the Exchequer and Social Insurance Fund and we continue to work on minimising overpayments by our ongoing programme of improvements in our control strategy. We adopt a four-pronged approach to control the following: prevention of fraud and error at the initial claim stage; detection through reviews of ongoing claims; deterrence through the application of penalties; and recovery of overpayments.

Our control strategy is founded on a number of pillars, including systematic risk analysis, surveys of the levels of fraud and error within schemes, and scheme specific reviews. While all staff have a responsibility for control, more than 600 staff at local, national and regional level have specific responsibility for control related activities. Our control strategy is further strengthened through our co-ordination and co-operation with other agencies including the Revenue Commissioners, the Garda National Immigration Bureau and a range of Departments and agencies. These arrangements include data matching exercises and on-the-ground joint investigation operations.

In recent years we have implemented a new overpayments and debt management policy, which is aimed at maximising recovery of payments incorrectly made through fraud or error. This policy is supported by a new computer system which provides more accurate, up-to-date and reliable information on debt, and it has enabled us to restructure our business processes to pursue debt recovery, particularly from people no longer in receipt of social welfare.

Prosecutions play a key role in our policy of deterring fraud against the social welfare system. Proceedings are taken against people who defraud the social welfare payments system and against employers who fail to carry out their statutory obligations to deduct PRSI contributions, or to keep records. In 2008, around 350 cases were referred to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor to initiate prosecution proceedings. More than 300 criminal cases involving social welfare recipients were finalised in court, representing an increase of more than 80 cases on 2007. In addition, 15 cases against employers were also finalised. The number of cases referred to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor each year exceeds the number finalised in court, with the result that a large number of cases are on hand at various stages of prosecution. However, the number awaiting prosecution at the end of 2008 was lower than that at end of 2007, due to a substantial increase in cases finalised in court in 2008.

Prosecution of cases through the courts is costly in terms of time and resources of the staff of the Department and the courts engaged in pursuing these cases. While overpayments can be identified and fraud may be suspected, it is not always possible to establish the standard of evidence required for successful prosecution in the courts. Decisions on cases to be referred for prosecution are taken having regard to the likelihood of success, the amount of money involved, the income of the person during the period in which the fraud was perpetrated, and the current circumstances of the person.

I now turn to the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the subvention to the Pensions Board. The board has a statutory function to regulate occupational pension schemes and personal retirement savings accounts in Ireland as part of its role to monitor and supervise the operation of the Pensions Act. It is largely financed by the payment of fees levied on pension schemes. When the PRSAs were introduced, it was recognised that the fee base, in the initial years, would be inadequate to cover development and regulatory costs. It was decided, with the agreement of the Department of Finance, to pay a temporary recoverable subvention to the board until such time as an adequate fee base was established. The intention was that the Pensions Boardwould repay the subvention from any surplus fee income generated by PRSAs.

By the end of 2007, the overall subvention to the board amounted to €8.1 million, but the value of receipts was only €1.7 million. It was important that the subvention should cease so that its temporary nature would be maintained and the board restored to a position where it was largely self-funding. It was also clear that, due to factors outside its control which impacted on PRSA take-up, it was unlikely that PRSAs would generate sufficient income to facilitate the repayment of the subvention in the foreseeable future, as originally envisaged by the board. In that context, with the approval of the Department of Finance, the decision was taken to write off the amount owed. In sanctioning the decision, the Department of Finance required the Pensions Board to increase the contribution it makes to the Exchequer in respect of its pension scheme from a standard 16.66% of payroll to 25% for staff recruited after 1995, and to 30% for staff recruited before 1995.

The Pensions Board funds its day to day spending and maintains reserves through charging fees on pensions schemes. These reserves allow the board to cope with any volatility in its fee income and ensure that it is in a position to take legal actions where necessary to enforce the provisions of the Pensions Act. It would not have been appropriate to use this reserve to off-set the debt due to the Department as this would have involved using reserves of the occupational funds to subsidise PRSAs. The Department continues to monitor the reserves to ensure they are maintained at a reasonable level through its representatives on the Pensions Board and on the finance and audit committee where these issues are kept under review.

The committee asked that I address the subject of risk management and its management within the Department. In line with Government policy, the Department has developed a comprehensive risk management framework encompassing strategic, operational, financial and reputational risks. Operational risks are further broken down into sub-headings of human resources, business process, ICT, business partners, business continuity, documentation, physical security, legal and regulatory, and health and safety.

The overall objective of the risk management policy is to ensure that appropriate actions are taken by management throughout the organisation to identify, assess and manage effectively the risks to which the organisation may be exposed. Governance of risk management is the responsibility of the Secretary General, the management board and the risk and operations committee, ROC. The ROC, headed by an assistant secretary, does the following: approves and reviews the Department's risk management policy, methodology and standards; creates awareness of the need to manage risk effectively; monitors management of risk throughout the Department; and reports on a regular basis to the Department's management board. Senior division managers, who have responsibility for managing risk within their areas of remit, report to the ROC on a quarterly basis. These reports are reviewed and follow-up action is taken to eliminate the risk. Where considered necessary, the matter is brought to the attention of the management board. A comprehensive review of the risk management framework, including the processes and tools, is scheduled for this year.

The Department has a well-trained and professional internal audit unit, headed by a professional qualified accountant. The unit carries out a continuous programme of reviews on financial and internal control issues across the many business units and payment schemes of the Department. The unit provides an independent opinion to senior management, the management board and the Secretary General on the performance of the business areas reviewed. The work of the unit is overseen by an independent audit committee, which includes three members of the Department and three external members, one of whom chairs the committee. The unit works to an audit plan which is agreed on an annual basis with the Secretary General and with the audit committee.

During 2007 and 2008 some 30 internal audit reports and reviews were conducted. They included the following: audits of financial controls and administrative procedures for social welfare programmes; several social welfare local offices; the payments administrative area; money advice and budgeting companies; and information and computer systems. In view of its ongoing and increasing dependence on ICT, the Department in 2006 entered a four-year contract with a company of external professionals to assist with specialised internal audits on its ICT systems.

Finally, as the committee is aware, there has been a substantial rise in the numbers on the live register and, regrettably, the level of inflows is continuing to rise. The number of people on the live register, which at the end of 2007 was some 170,000, now stands at over 350,000. The rate of increase in recent months has been unprecedented and the live register grew last month by 26,000. The growth in inflows has resulted in long queues in local offices and delays in processing claims which, inevitably, has put pressure on staff and managers in the local office network and has impacted on services to customers. The average time for processing jobseeker's benefit claims is two weeks and it is five weeks for jobseeker's allowance. However, this can vary from office to office and the matter is monitored on an ongoing basis so that additional support can be provided where particular problems are being experienced. Some 70,000 claims are awaiting processing.

A number of actions have been taken to address these issues. Staff and management at local level have responded superbly by increasing productivity and working overtime to minimise the impact on customers. A number of process improvements have been implemented to streamline and simplify claims processing. Approximately 250 additional posts have been allocated to the Department in recent weeks. These include an additional 190 posts, including 32 temporary staff, that have been assigned to local offices, and most of these posts have been filled. In addition, 16 additional social welfare inspectors are being assigned to undertake means testing and other claims processing work, and the number of facilitators has increased from 40 to 60.

The increase in the number of staff in local offices has put pressure on our accommodation and we are reaching the point where we will not be able to put more staff into local offices. To overcome this difficulty, four central decisions offices in Finglas, Townsend Street, Sligo and Carrick-on-Shannon, with a staff of ten each, are being set up to process claim decisions and relieve pressure on the local offices. Other offices will be established in the coming months as the need and the opportunity arises.

We in the Department are conscious of our responsibility to deliver our services efficiently and effectively to our 1 million customers and their 500,000 dependents each week, while ensuring that expenditure of the funds entrusted to us is managed appropriately.

May we publish your statement?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

We understand the difficulties the public are facing in claiming their entitlements in these unfortunate times but we must recognise also the pressure the Department is under, which we do. As public representatives, we sometimes have to represent people who find it difficult to understand the system, but the response from the Department is both efficient and courteous at all times and even in these difficult times. I want to recognise this.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate the comments.

I thank the Secretary General for her opening statement. I want to echo what the Chairman has said. I have no hesitation in saying that the Department, of all the 15 Departments with which I personally deal as a Deputy, gives by far the best service to elected representatives. We have had much contact from people in recent times in connection with claims and we get very good answers to our requests. This is obviously a result of investment over a period of time and the Department's information technology systems are working very well. I want to make this point before I address other issues. If we ask one or two difficult questions, it is in the context of a recognition that this is a good Department.

The Department processes over 1 million payments a week and 60 million per annum. As I have said before, this Department should be the lead Department for several other Departments with regard to how to operate IT. Year in, year out at this committee, we hear that Departments make a hames of such projects and spend money without getting value. This Department is doing it right.

Of the 60 million payments per year, how many are made to bank accounts outside the State? I might have raised this matter previously.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The Deputy has asked before. We make very few payments outside the State. While I would have to check, I believe the numbers are very small. There are pensioners who live abroad and we make payments to them. We have checked in regard to non-Irish nationals who have recently come to the country and, in the vast majority of those cases, well above 90%, those payments are made into Irish banks.

In what circumstances would the Department make payments to non-Irish banks?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We make such payments to pensioners living abroad and there are certain officials who are assigned abroad and we would make——

I understand that but——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

May I correct myself? We only make them to pensioners who are living abroad. We are not——

That is great. There is no question of jobseeker's allowance or benefit, disability allowance or the free schemes being paid to bank accounts outside the State. There might be free schemes for the elderly but I will leave them——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There is. To clarify with regard to jobseekers, countries are entitled to export their jobseekers, as the Deputy may be aware——

For what period?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

For 13 weeks. It is only in those cases——

Does the Department have a system to ensure that, following the 13 weeks, the payment is reinstated?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We monitor that. The responsibility for monitoring such payments is in the home country and we do that.

I want to deal with the €740 million paid in supplementary welfare allowance last year. Ms Lacey might give us a breakdown on the headings. My understanding is that rental subsidy would obviously be quite a big part of this. Although the Department of Social and Family Affairs issues these payments, I understand the adjudication is done not by departmental staff but by community welfare officers in the Health Service Executive. There have been suggestions that these staff may be transferred back to the Department. Will Ms Lacey update us on these issues?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The supplementary allowance is broken down between the basic weekly payment, rent supplement and mortgage supplement, as well as exceptional needs payments and the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. A very small amount of this expenditure is accounted for by humanitarian aid supplements. Entitlement to the basic weekly payment arises in different ways. In some cases, for example, recipients are awaiting payment of another benefit from the Department. In other instances, applicants may qualify for supplementary benefit in the absence of qualification for another payment. This would include, for instance, people suffering from a short-term illness who do not qualify for illness benefit on a contributory basis.

What is the figure for rental subsidy?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Expenditure in respect of rental subsidy was €390 million in 2007, increasing to some €440 million last year.

Therefore, it is by far the most significant element of expenditure on supplementary welfare allowances.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

Community welfare officers are dealing with increasing numbers of requests for mortgage supplement payments. What was the expenditure on mortgage supplement in 2007 and what does Ms Lacey expect the figure to be this year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Expenditure on mortgage supplement was €12 million in 2007. I understand it increased to €28 million in 2008.

There is no doubt that it will increase further in 2009.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It continues to increase. It is difficult to project so early in the year what the total expenditure will be. We always get a high number of claims post-Christmas, but the rate of increase this year is sizeable. We do not know whether that rate of trajectory will persist.

I understand that, but I presume there will be a Supplementary Estimate for the Department in the coming days and weeks. Therefore, the Department will have to make a stab at projecting expenditure on mortgage supplement.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We will have to make a stab at it but we have not——

Ms Lacey's hesitancy on this issue does not inspire much confidence in regard to the Estimates the Government will present in three weeks' time. Ms Lacey has said it is difficult to make a stab at projecting expenditure on mortgage supplement in 2009. Does this mean there will be a caveat attached to the Estimates that are produced in the coming weeks?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

This expenditure more than doubled from 2007 to 2008. I would not project that it will double again in the current year.

That leads me on to the next issue I wish to raise. If the expenditure does not double in 2009, I suspect it will not be because there are not at least 100% more claims but because community welfare officers are beginning to refuse a greater number of applicants. This is my experience from talking to constituents. I have had correspondence with the Department on this issue arising from a recent parliamentary question. I am aware that the Citizens Information Board is following up several such cases.

In my correspondence with the Department, I asked about the guidelines it issues to community welfare officers. Clearly, there cannot be a situation where hundreds of individuals are making decisions as they see fit in the absence of any criteria. I understand some deciding officers are refusing to grant supplementary welfare allowance on the basis of their conclusion that the applicant should not have obtained the loan in the first place. I am sure Ms Lacey understands what I am getting at. It may be that the loan is deemed too large or the payments too ambitious. It seems the Department does not see itself in the business of issuing mortgage subsidy in respect of a mortgage which the community welfare officer considers the applicant should not have taken out in the first place. In other words, the Department is coming to a decision different from that arrived at by the financial institution in question.

Will Ms Lacey explain why the Department considers itself to have greater expertise in this area than the financial institutions? Incidentally, I suspect this is the case. There has been much discussion of the failure of regulation of banking activity and so on. I understand the Department is in discussions with the Irish Banking Federation on devising a set of criteria for deciding officers and community welfare officers on which these decisions will be based. In the meantime, however, people are experiencing difficulties. If the Department is concluding that certain mortgage supplement applicants should not have received mortgages in the first place, where does that leave us?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Although there are guidelines for community welfare officers, they are independent in each decision they make. If applicants are unhappy with the decision given in their cases, they can avail of the appeals process within the community welfare service. If they are not satisfied with that, they can appeal to the social welfare appeals office.

How long does it take for an appeal to be processed? Last week, a constituent of mine was told by staff in the local citizens information office that the process could take 12 months.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have information on the average timeframe for an appeal in regard to mortgage supplement. For general appeals, the average is somewhere up to 20 or 22 weeks.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Is Ms Lacey referring to appeals to the appeals office?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. There is also an appeals process within the community welfare service, which is under the remit of the Health Service Executive.

Should people seek recourse there in the first instance before going to the appeals office?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

Will Ms Lacey send us information on the timeframe for appeals to the social welfare appeals office in respect of decisions by community welfare officers to refuse mortgage supplement?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will try to get those figures. However, the Deputy will appreciate that the numbers of such appeals have been small until now.

This has come to my attention locally and I am sure other Deputies have the same experience. It seems to be a mushrooming problem.

What percentage of appeals to the social welfare appeals office are successful in terms of the applicant obtaining a payment, or part-payment, he or she was refused by the deciding officer?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There is a process whereby a person appealing a decision may request that the deciding officer review the case in the first instance.

I understand that.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As such, a percentage of appeals are revised before they reach the appeals office.

Correct. My question relates to those appeals that reach the social welfare appeals office.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The Deputy should note that appeals revised by the deciding officer come through the appeals office before being sent back for review by the deciding officer. Of the appeals to the appeals office, 13% are withdrawn; 39% are disallowed; and 2% are revised by the deciding officer. Therefore, some 47% or 48% of appeals are allowed.

It is disturbing that the social welfare appeals office is concluding in so many cases that experienced deciding officers made the wrong decision in respect of the claimant and is consequently overruling that decision. A very high percentage of claimants are obliged to endure a lengthy appeals process. An unemployed person has a 50:50 chance of winning his or her case in the appeals office. I am delighted such persons are winning their cases but it says something about the decision-making process that the conclusion reached by the deciding officer was invalid in 50% of cases.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Only a percentage of people appeal the decision they receive. In general, they do so because they are of the view that something was ignored or neglected in their case. A person who initiates an appeal will generally provide additional information to support his or her application. The most common reason an application is rejected is that it is difficult to obtain information from the applicant.

In the case of a medical condition, an applicant may provide additional information from his or her consultant or whatever. In the case of an appeal pertaining to means and so on, while the applicant may be reluctant to provide the information initially, he or she often will turn up with the additional information in the appeals process. There is a balance and as the Deputy noted, if it was the other way around, he might query whether our appeal system was too restrictive. The fact that it balances out this way shows that the appeals office is working independently of the Department in the manner in which it makes its decisions.

I understand. The Money Advice and Budgeting Service is funded through the Department. At present, how long must people wait before getting an appointment with it? I understand there was a time when it was relatively easy to arrange an appointment for those who had financial difficulties. Does the Secretary General have information to hand in this regard?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have the detailed information. The service operates on an independent basis around the country. I understand that in some areas, the waiting time to get an appointment has risen to some weeks.

That is distressing.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. Again, it is a factor of what has happened in recent times as more people come to the schemes. However, not everyone needs a face to face meeting. There is a telephone service and there are other information services and so on that can be of help to people.

In respect of family income supplement, as many people obviously are going on short time, has the Department experienced a significant increase in applications?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The number applying for family income supplement has risen in recent years because the Department has raised its profile. However, such an increase would be difficult to discern. While a number of people are applying for it, others who have lost their jobs will be coming off family income supplement and going on to a social welfare payment.

It works both ways.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It does.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report contains much on the issue of fraud and I wish to touch on it a little. The Department regularly announces savings of €500 million or €600 million as a result of control activity in respect of fraud. How much of that figure each year constitutes an actual cash saving for the year and how much of it is a potential saving — in the nice phrase used by the Secretary General — over the period in which the Department expects the person not to return to claim from the system again, which can be two or three years? Some of the amount cited comprises a potential saving that could be made next year and is not a real figure.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The figure we give is related to an estimate of how long the person might have stayed on, had we not found them. It is based on work that was done some time ago, which we have reviewed, to establish what happens in such situations. For most of our short-term schemes, our estimate is approximately 32 weeks and for the longer schemes, our estimate——

Is it up to two years?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

—— is up to three years.

Again, the committee has seen information in that regard. When the figure of €500 million or €600 million is announced as a saving, it really constitutes a potential saving that might be made over the next two years. As far as I can see, it is not a cash saving.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is not a cash saving, it is a——

From the statements issued, everyone thinks it is. Every year it is announced that the Department has saved €500 million or €600 million or whatever from control activities. However, it really is——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It means that had the control activity not been in place, the expenditure on social welfare would have been higher by that amount.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Such expenditure also would have taken place this year. Last year's savings will have an impact on this year and this year's savings will have an impact on the rest of this year and into next year.

I will move on to page 104 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, on which it is stated that €232 million was outstanding at the end of 2007 in respect of over payments. The report states that €147 million of that amount relates to 2005 or earlier years. As the report reflects the position at the end of 2007 and 15 months have passed, how much of that €147 million has been recovered?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have the figure. I could not allocate a recovery specifically to that figure. In the last year, we recovered €26 million in overpayments. We will not be in a position to recover a great deal of that €147 million. Some of it is small money and some will belong to people who have died, as it goes back so far. In other cases, the Department is collecting this money on an ongoing, small basis, if those concerned still are on social welfare. The total recoveries over five years amounted to €103 million.

Total recoveries of what?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Of over payments over a five-year period. However, I cannot say——

That is an average of something like €20 million per annum.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes, it is. The total amount is €103 million.

Is it correct to suggest that much of the €147 million that predates 2005 will not be recovered?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is right. Each year, the recovery is less than the over payments. While the recovery for 2007 amounted to €26 million, the over payment was €50 million.

Does the Department envisage writing that sum off if it is not really recoverable?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

At some stage, we must talk to the Department of Finance and to the auditor. We do not write things off permanently. We write them off the book or for an accounting purpose so that one has a more realistic figure. There is no point in carrying something forward for 40 years.

Perhaps the Secretary General will provide the committee with a note on the Department's realistic assessment as to how it perceives the aforementioned €147 million will be dealt with over time. If some of it must be written off, it would be better for that to be visible rather than including the figure every year.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is an accounting practice with which we must comply. We also must consider the stage at which one would write something off. We used to write something off if there was no activity for three years. However, we have changed that policy and have taken some cases back in again because we have discovered that after three years, one may be able to revitalise them. In fact, our new computer systems can identify people who have left our systems and perhaps have gone to work and we are pursuing those as well.

I will move to page 106 of the report, which deals with the cases that went to court. I note that fines to the value of €88,750 were imposed on recipients in respect of various cases. I also note, in a footnote at the bottom of the page, that fines to the value of €8,160 were imposed by the courts in respect of ten cases pertaining to employers. Where do such fines go?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is a court fine.

Does that mean the Department has no financial incentive to bring someone to court and get him or her fined? The Department does not recover the money.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

While the over payment is recoverable, the fine is separate and constitutes an add-on. Someone who owes the Department €10,000 will owe us that sum and will owe the fine of €5,000 to the judicial system.

When the Revenue Commissioners go after people for not paying taxes or for under payment, the fines and penalties regularly are far in excess of the under payment and I understand the money reverts directly to them, which provides them with a major incentive to chase such penalties. The total fines for the ten cases involving employers amounted to €8,000, which works out as an average of €800 each. The Department must be frustrated if this is the level of fine it can achieve in court.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Our objective in going to court really is the deterrent factor.

An average sum of €800 is no deterrent for an employer.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I cannot comment on how the courts perform.

Perhaps this is a matter the committee might take up separately, if it considers the fines to be insufficient. I can imagine that the deterrent effect of €8,000 worth of fines among ten employers would be zero. It almost would be an incentive to force the Department into court. Perhaps the committee can take this matter up separately.

Can the aforementioned sum of €147 million pertaining to 2005 or earlier be categorised or broken down by the 50 schemes? Does the Department know under what schemes——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Under what scheme the over payment arose?

Yes. What is the biggest scheme category in respect of those old arrears?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Most over payments arise on job seeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance.

I note that the Secretary General's opening statement stated that the Department works with other Departments, the Revenue Commissioners, the Garda and so on. I know the Department has mounted some multi-agency road checks recently, on which it is to be complimented. Has it carried out any work with the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA? I imagine that it is being called into many areas of employment where people do not believe they are getting their due entitlements. Due to the economic situation, there will be an increase in the black economy. I would prefer the Department to be ahead of the problem instead of trying to catch up in six years time. Activity in the black economy will increase this year and next year.

People in certain types of employment will also be in receipt of jobseeker's allowance. NERA has a responsibility to check that employers are complying with employment law. Has the Department met it concerning a protocol to address people who are both in employment in the black economy and are in receipt of social welfare payments?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have a close working relationship with NERA and Revenue through our joint investigation unit. Last year, NERA conducted a special project on the construction industry. Recently, it conducted a project on taxis and taxi operators.

What was the outcome of the project on the construction industry?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

A total of 5,500 cases and 1,400 employers were investigated. The resultant savings amounted to €2.6 million.

The 5,500 cases——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They related to individuals.

Were they investigated by NERA or the Department?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The Department worked with Revenue and NERA.

There were 1,500 cases.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some 1,500 employer inspections were carried out.

Did the Department find anything?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some 5,559 individual cases were also investigated. At the end of 2007, the resultant savings amounted to €2.6 million. A further €3.99 million was saved last year.

The savings resulted from the inspections of 5,500 employees and 1,500 employers.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

How many of the 1,500 employers should have been prosecuted? Will Ms Lacey tease through the details?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have all of the details with me. The cases were considered from the point of view of whether bogus self-employment was being set up. There was little evidence of that. Rather, it was a question of maintaining books. More than 90% of the employers investigated were compliant.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Five offences were committed by employers.

Is the Department pursuing them?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

I will comment arising from some of the questions put by Deputy Fleming. When Revenue attended the committee some weeks ago, we discussed frustration with the courts system, but the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners stated that it was not her job to be frustrated by the decisions of courts. One term of imprisonment was given to a tax defaulter. Of the 222 cases outlined today that went before the courts, 12 were given periods of imprisonment. What were the maximum and minimum periods?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have the information with me, but I will supply it to the Chairman.

Does Ms Lacey believe the periods to be a deterrent?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They can be a deterrent. For employers, it is also a reputational issue.

The courts issued fines in 107 cases. Does Ms Lacey have information on the level of fines?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not. I will revert to the Chairman with a breakdown, but penalties are an issue for the courts. Other than what is provided for in legislation, the Department has no say in the level of fines. We have found that, despite how large a penalty can be, the court does not reach that level.

In 2007, the Department's gross expenditure on the insurance fund and assistance amounted to more than €15 billion. Unfortunately, it is expected to amount to more than €20 billion this year. Is the Department coping with the extra demand? Have extra resources or staff been provided?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Since the beginning of last year, an additional 240 staff have either been put in place or are nearly in place. Early last year, we sought 30 staff. We then sought a further 150. Under our current process, we seek additional staff as the Live Register increases.

We are trying to address the considerable pressures on staff, management and customers at local offices. To free people to work with the public, we are establishing four central decision units to remove processing decisions from local offices.

I notice the increase of two thirds in gross overpayments between 2003 and 2007. Is this a result of an increase in the payment amounts, the number of cases or both?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

While the amount has increased in the five-year period, the figure as a percentage of expenditure has decreased. It mainly relates to the increase in the rates during the period in question. I told Deputy Fleming about the previously written off overpayments that we have taken back on to the balance sheet.

Unfortunately, I needed to attend a vote in the House and I missed a bit of Ms Lacey's presentation.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Taking those overpayments back on to the balance sheet has added to the cumulative total.

On the general question of overpayment, my colleague, Deputy Fleming, asked about the historical position regarding the €232 million, namely, the overpayment that had not been disposed of by 31 December 2007. What is the prognosis? How much of the €232 million does the Department realistically expect to recover and over what period?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

My objective is always to try to recover all of it. Last year, we recovered the equivalent of 50% of overpayments. We will try to increase the percentage.

Recoveries arise in different ways. For example, some relate to jobseeker's allowance. The jobseeker week runs from Tuesday to Tuesday or Wednesday to Wednesday, but people tend to return to work on Mondays and are given an extra three days. People may claim for an extra week after returning to work and so on. The actual amounts are relatively small, although there are some large cases.

Are most of the amounts marginal?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Many would be marginal as opposed to major recoveries. We attempt to recover major amounts and will pursue those cases through the courts.

The €232 million on 31 December 2007 included €147 million from 2005 or earlier. Does the Department realistically expect to recover 50% of the €232 million?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some of the €147 million arose from cases in which the people in question were relatively young. At some future stage, they will depend on social welfare payments, at which point we will be in a position to recover the money. Unlike previously, we are now pursuing through their workplaces those people who cease receiving social welfare payments and return to work. I do not expect to recover all of the money, but I expect to increase the level of recovery as we improve our procedures.

Modern technology will assist the Department.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. We have introduced a new policy and established a new section to handle the matter of debt management.

The message should go out that, like an elephant, the Department does not forget.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not.

And the elephant's memory is lengthening.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I hope so.

Does the statute of limitations apply?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Only for court cases.

Is there a problem with claimants from Northern Ireland? How great is the problem of such people improperly claiming?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is an issue that has come to attention fairly recently. There is a disparity between the rates of payment North and South of the Border. People are making arrangements that are not necessarily illegal. They may be moving across the Border and making claims. We are introducing rigorous checks on people who apply in the Border regions and have previously lived in Northern Ireland.

Does the issue of habitual residence arise?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The habitual residence does not apply because the common travel area exists.

Do they not have to show that they are habitually resident at the address from which they are claiming?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They must have evidence to show they are resident at the address. The usual sort of thing is a utility bill. We are setting up procedures and we are undertaking more home visits in those areas. Someone moving from a large town, such as Derry, into Donegal is making himself or herself less available for employment because the opportunities for employment are greater in Derry than in Donegal. We examine the issues that arise but people can legitimately move across the Border and move to the Republic to live.

Another point in favour of a united Ireland is that we would have a common system of payment.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The multi-agency vehicle checks started recently but are proving beneficial.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

People claim they are living here but are driving cars registered in Northern Ireland. Either they are living here and their cars should be registered here or they are living in Northern Ireland and they should claim benefit in the North.

Was there a problem with child benefit being overpaid or exported to Poland? What was the extent of this?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There was a misunderstanding of the total number involved. The number of cases where the children are resident in Poland rather than Ireland is approximately 6,000. About another 8,000 claims or so must be processed but we find that this is a long, slow process because we must find the details of the person, who must prove that he or she is living here and employed here. We must also find who has primary care and responsibility for the child, whether the person here is maintaining the child and whether they are getting benefit payments from their home country. In a number of cases, the process has taken so long that we are making a one-off payment for the period that the person was here. A number of workers have gone home so it is not a continuing issue. Approximately 6,000 people are being paid for children abroad.

Is that 6,000 children or 6,000 families?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is 6,000 families.

How many children?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There are 10,000 children.

How much is the payment?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The payments exported amount to €20 million.

Are the children entitled to payments until they reach the age of 18?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Provided the parent works here.

Is that as long as the parent remains here?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The parent must be here and in employment or, having lost employment, be in receipt of jobseeker's benefit.

You referred to a misunderstanding initially. What do you mean by this?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There was a misperception of the number of cases involved. There were references in the media to much higher numbers of claims. There is a higher number of claims in the case of foreign nationals who are resident here with their families, where their children are going to school here and the parents continue to work here. There are some 90,000 families in this category.

I do not want to name the nationalities in case we stigmatise them. What type of relationship exists between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and authorities in other EU countries?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have ongoing contact with EU countries. This applies to individual cases and through contacts between me, our officials and our ambassador meeting with the Poles to address these issues. We rationalised the process of information. Child benefit in that country is paid through a local area and with regard to trying to find which local area was responsible for this we have nailed much of this.

I do not want to focus on Poland, it is a very fine country.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They happen to be the biggest number of the people who came here.

Are the figures mentioned solely related to Poland or does this cover the entire EU?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, 80% of the non-resident claims are Polish.

Does the figure of €20 million cover the entire EU?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some 80% of the €20 million is going to Poland.

Why is there not an EU-wide PPS number so that there can be a check on this?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not know that there is any plan for this. Each country has developed its social welfare system and identity. In other countries the number is an identity number rather than a PPS number. Many issues would need to be resolved but there is co-operation between various countries and we are working with the EU to develop data transmission on a more automated electronic basis.

With regard to recovery, there was reference to the number of people taken to court and 12 prison sentences were imposed. Were these prison sentences imposed on employers or employees?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They were almost all employees. There may have been one employer but I am not sure. I do not have the number of employers who were sentenced.

A particular hobby horse of mine is that I am not in favour of sending people to prison at a cost of €2,000 per week if moneys can be recovered otherwise. Is the system of garnishee available so that the Department can make deductions from other payments due to people? Is this used extensively and are alternative methods used to recover money?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The court case is an additional penalty. The person is required to repay the over payment whether or not we bring him or her to court. The court penalty is a penalty for a breach of the law; it is not an alternative to paying back the money. The money is still repayable.

Is the Department's primary approach to recover the money?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We take very few cases to court, only 350 were dealt with by the courts in the past year.

What are the prime factors that caused the Department to get involved and to refer the matter to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor for court proceedings?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We examine various aspects. We look at the amount of money defrauded and whether this was done in collusion with someone else. We examine whether there were previous offences by the person and we consider the person's current situation. There is no point in taking someone through the court process if there is no possibility of success or if the cost will outweigh the benefit we would get from it, aside from the deterrent factor.

Does the Department come across individuals, employers or companies that are repeat offenders?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

About 90% of employers are compliant and have been for some years because we and Revenue have a very good process of visiting and checking on employers to ensure they are compliant. The number of repeat offenders is very small but we examine them more closely as prospects for being taken to court.

To move on to the question of the Pensions Board. I understand this board is a regulatory body that deals with private pension funds. Why is it the responsibility of the Department of Social and Family Affairs?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is Government policy.

Has it always been the responsibility of the Department?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The agency was established in the early 1990s to monitor and regulate the pensions industry. It was established within the Department. I have no control over why it is there.

Should it be the responsibility of the Department of Finance or the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment? It seems odd that a Department dealing with social welfare should have responsibility for private pension funds. It seems even odder that the Department of Social and Family Affairs pays money to it.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Does the Deputy mean the subvention?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

PRSAs were established as an alternative approach for people to make provision for their pensions. The Pensions Board is self-funding, by and large. It collects contributions from the pensions industry which go towards the cost of the administration and regulation it carries out. However, it was expected that in the first few years it would not have sufficient funding to pay for itself. In conjunction with the Department of Finance, it was agreed that we would provide a temporary subvention. It was clear that the need for the subvention would not end because the PRSAs had not taken off in the way that had been anticipated. The Department of Finance agreed that we could write off the subvention but as a counter to this, the contribution provided by the Pensions Board in respect of its staff was increased from 16.6% to 25% or 30% depending on the rate.

The Pensions Board has a finance and audit committee on which the Department is represented.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

That committee is reviewing the entire fee structure. Has this review been completed?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That will be completed this year.

How long has it been going on?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The same fees have been in place since 2002 but I do not know how long the review has been going on.

It has not come up with recommendations.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Not for a change in fees.

So, basically it is supposed to be self-financing.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. One of the reasons we wanted to write off the subventions was so we would not have this continuing relationship with it. Since the subvention was stopped we have not made further payments to it.

Ms Lacey may be glad to know that I must go elsewhere to vote.

Deputy Seán Fleming took the Chair.

I welcome Ms Lacey and the rest of the team. I apologise for leaving during the presentation but I have read it. We are all conscious of the problems with regard to waiting times for claims, the difficulties faced by people who find themselves unemployed and the huge disappointment and lack of dignity in the manner in which people are treated. It is awful to see people queuing in the rain and cold weather outside social welfare offices throughout the country. There is concern about the Department's inability to manage this situation so people are treated decently.

With regard to the delay in processing claims, figures I received during the past week indicated a waiting time of more than two months in 17 social welfare offices. By any standard, it is unacceptable that a person must wait two months for financial assistance. Examining these figures more closely, one sees that of those 17 offices, 15 of them are branch offices rather than local offices. As we know, branch offices are operated on a contract basis by private sector people. The overall cost of running the branch offices was €9 million last year. Will Ms Lacey explain whether we are getting value for money for the €9 million being paid to private sector people to handle claims?

Given that there are such lengthy delays in these offices, where is the difficulty? Is it that people are not being paid enough? Is the Department not getting value for money in terms of the €9 million being spent? Are branch office managers not employing sufficient numbers of people? I accept what Ms Lacey stated with regard to additional staff coming on stream in local offices. However, nothing seems to be happening to improve the situation in branch offices where the real problems lie.

Deputy Bernard Allen took the Chair.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

With regard to branch offices, decisions on claims are made in the parent office and not in the branch office itself. We are examining where the breakdown is. Branch offices have been part of the social welfare system for 50 or 60 years and have given very good service during these years. Branch managers are required to employ sufficient staff and the office manager is required to examine branch office operation from time to time each year and to ensure that branch managers comply with the requirements.

Earlier, I explained the establishment of four central offices to take some of the work from the front. Some of the work to be taken away is branch office work and this will allow for a quicker turn-around of claims. This is how we will address it. As well as putting additional staff into local or central offices, we will put in staff to support the additional claims coming to branch offices.

Will Ms Lacey explain this a little further? Predominantly, the major delays are in branch offices. Ms Lacey stated they are required to provide enough staff. Is the issue that managers are not providing enough staff or that the Department is not providing enough staff to decide claims? Where is the problem and why does it affect branch offices specifically?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The problem is with regard to the claim decision process. We have been putting people into offices throughout the country to pick up on this. The branch managers are making provision to address the issue of growth in their areas. We are discussing with the branch managers what they have done, what staff they have and their training, etc. However, we are trying to address it from a number of perspectives. It is not just a matter of examining it from the branch office, although that may be one end of it. A claim, when taken, must go from the branch office to the head office, go through a decision process and then back to the branch office. We are examining where along that chain the issues are.

Some €9 million is being spent on it and the service is unsatisfactory. What are the arrangements for the oversight of that to ensure the branch managers are employing enough staff?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As I explained, the branch offices are checked a couple of times a year by the local office manager to ensure they carry out managers' checks to ensure——

What happens if it is unsatisfactory?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

If an unsatisfactory report goes to the branch manager they are required to put in place the enhancements and improvements that will address the issues.

Waiting lists would seem to indicate that is not operating satisfactorily. That is where most of the delays are.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Many of the delays are in the branch offices, but we are only getting into the process. There have been many difficulties but we are trying to catch up with what has happened in recent months and the numbers are rising quicker than anybody could have anticipated.

I accept fully that the situation is rapidly changing. What is the target waiting time for all offices?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Our target waiting time is an average of two weeks for jobseeker's benefit and five weeks for jobseeker's allowance for all offices.

When does the Department expect to reach those targets?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We are putting in the additional staff and it will depend on the rate of increase. We hope there will be some levelling off in the inflows of claims in the coming weeks or months, which would allow us to return to the levels we would like to have. As we identify offices with problems we are putting emphasis on the offices one by one rather than trying to target all the offices at once. For example, we had problems in the Navan office and we put in an additional support squad to go in at the weekends and clear backlogs. We are looking at the branch offices in the same way.

In an answer on Tuesday to a Deputy who is not a member of this committee, Ms Lacey said she was employing 190 additional staff. Are they coming from advertising, and if not, from where?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I said nearly 250 staff have gone in over the last year, 190 of whom have gone into local offices. They are mainly coming from surpluses from other Departments and some redeployment from our within our Department.

What role does the Department of Finance have in this? Does it co-ordinate the transfer of staff from one Department to another? What flexibility is there?

Mr. David Denny

We play a joint role with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. There was a Government decision that staff could be levied from other Government Departments to meet the very high priority areas of the various schemes in the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It partly depends on where staff are needed. If there are branch offices in particular locations there will not necessarily be Departments in those locations but there may be staff who wish to transfer to them. Volunteers are sought and we can levy staff if we have no volunteers.

We hear so much about some of the HSE administrative staff not knowing what they are doing. Has the Department contacted the HSE to see if it has staff surplus to requirements? These would be people at local level.

Mr. David Denny

It has not, partly because we are beginning within the Civil Service where it is easier to move staff because there are common grading systems and people are used to moving across Departments. It is not without industrial relations issues but they are relatively contained areas of difference and discussion with staff interests. There has been no shortfall.

Is the HSE off limits?

Mr. David Denny

There has not been a need to look beyond the Civil Service. We can find sufficient volunteers or staff who can be levied. If we need to draw staff from other parts of the public service, we can examine that but it is not an immediate issue. The bulk of the staff initially being sought are at clerical level and there are many civil servants. We are talking about clerical staff typically in regional offices and many of our clerical staff are happy to move back to regional offices so there has not been a shortfall. There may be one or two locations were we cannot find somebody and we have to find some other solution with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, but in the first instance they have been shaking the trees to see what volunteers can be got from other Departments and we are assisting with that process in encouraging, one way or another, Departments to release staff.

What does it mean to "levy" staff?

Mr. David Denny

It means, for example, that if we need to get 20 staff from another Department to move to a number of branch offices of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, and there are insufficient volunteers, the most junior staff, and the funds to pay them, would be transferred. They would be paid by the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Does that not happen when people volunteer to move?

Mr. David Denny

The funds also transfer in that situation.

So what does "levying" mean?

Mr. David Denny

It happens every so often in the Civil Service because of pressures in a Department when there is a need to get many people in quickly. Staff were levied into the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform for the immigration service a number of years ago.

And people do not have a choice.

Mr. David Denny

People do not have a choice. It is a levy in the sense that the management of the Department is required to release the people.

Thank you, I did not understand the term.

Mr. David Denny

If individuals wish to go they are volunteers; a levy is on the Department.

I get the impression there is insufficient flexibility in the system to deal with the tsunami of the unemployed that is hitting the Department of Social and Family Affairs. From what I am hearing I am not convinced there is enough interplay and flexibility between Departments to deal with the problems of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I would like more details on the system in place to allow an interchange of personnel. Recently some schemes within the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have been put on hold and it seems there could be surplus there.

Mr. David Denny

We are aware of that. Many of the staff who have been released to the Department of Social and Family Affairs have come from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. We can get the committee a note setting out where staff have come from.

Does the Secretary General believe there is enough flexibility in the system to allow her to deal with the major human problems she has?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

A number of Departments, such as the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, have freed up staff. There is a problem because there are agreements about people who have their names on transfer lists with the central applications facility, CAF. These agreements are with the unions. We might have somebody who is willing to move in one place but somebody on a list somewhere else who has to be moved first. I am not au fait with the detail of the complexity, but it slows down the process quite a bit. These arrangements have been in place for a long time and it would cause much disquiet to overrule them. It is understandable if somebody has sought to move from Dublin to a location in the country, for example, and has been waiting years to do so. If the Department is not declaring a surplus, such a person may not get to move because somebody else has moved before him or her.

We do not want people having moved in to be unhappy either as that does not help. I wrote to my colleagues at Secretary General level in the middle of last year and got a very good response. For example, the numbers involved in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food were reduced. In our Sligo office, an operation had finished and we were able to move a number of staff from the central office in Sligo into the central deciding office to support this new process. We are trying to pursue all facets but it is slower than we would hope at times. There are areas in the country where it is difficult to get people to. It is difficult to move people to some areas in the country.

Presumably the deciding offices can be anywhere?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is correct.

That seems to be where the logjam is at the moment.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is why we are setting up these central offices. We have already set up four and we hope to have another one in Roscommon in the next month or so. We are looking at somewhere in the southern end of the country. To do this we need two things: we must identify accommodation, either within our Department or perhaps other Departments that have spare accommodation which we may be able to get; and we must ensure we have people in the area. Once we get people in we must train them.

Is there an issue with the levied staff? Are they young and inexperienced?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

All the staff we get, whether they are volunteers or levied, are inexperienced. We are putting in place training processes and programmes that will allow us to train a number of people at the same time — perhaps centrally — and disperse them locally. By having central decisions offices, the new people can be given the more straightforward claims, with more experienced personnel working on the more complex examples. A variety of actions are being taken.

On the child payments going out of the country, last year the figure was €20 million, with €13 million in child benefit and €7 million in early child care supplement. I presume the real figure is substantially higher, given the very big backlog. We are required to do this under legislation but Ireland is being disadvantaged because we have a system in place where public services for children are not very good with regard to health, pre-school service, crèche or nursery services. By and large there are no free children's services, as there would be in many other European countries. We have relied on direct payments instead of good quality public services, whereas most other countries would do it the other way around, having decent public services and low direct payments.

We are being disadvantaged. Has that been taken up at EU level? It is a large amount of money to go out of this country, although it relates to children not resident here. The parents of these children do not have to deal with the high cost of living we have compared to many eastern European countries, for example. Has any attempt been made to argue the case at EU level?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The issue has been discussed with officials at EU level but the process has been in place since 1971. We benefitted from it for many years when Irish people were working in England and their children were here. In that case, the English child benefit was a higher payment. At this stage there does not appear to be a willingness or interest in changing the process.

We are trying to manage the issue as carefully as we can. On a three-monthly basis, people are required to certify that they are still in the country or in employment, and we are closing off claims as fast we can and as soon as we discover people are not here. The policy itself has not been given high priority for change in the EU, and other countries would probably not be willing to pursue it.

It is perfectly understandable that if another EU citizen comes to live here, he or she would be entitled to the entitlements of resident Irish people. There does not seem to be much logic in making a payment to somebody who is living elsewhere with a much lower cost of living compared to here.

I have noted the level of public services for children in other countries compared to here so the matter is different. There are grounds for making a case at EU level.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It would be a matter of raising a policy issue at EU level.

Maybe it is something we should take up with the Minister. With regard to child benefit, last year there was a fraud rate of approximately 14% for child benefit payments for non-resident children. What is it currently?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have the figure currently. We have changed the approach to monitoring child benefit, which was previously a low-risk scheme. What we had was a result from a survey taken a couple of years back and we have not repeated the survey in the past year or so. I do not have a comparable figure.

We have put in much more stringent regulations with the requirement that people certify, on a three-monthly basis, that they are in the country. Of the 1,800 certifications that went out, about 15% have not been returned. We have found that people may have moved address, so the percentage may be much smaller.

What was the percentage?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some 15% of the 1,800 certifications sent out recently have not been returned. We would stop the payments on those and we then find that somebody may have moved within Ireland and not told us that the address has changed. I would expect the percentage to be much lower as a result.

Does the witness know the exact percentage?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have it.

What year does the figure of 14% relate to? The Comptroller and Auditor General was involved in that.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It was 2004.

Was it that far back? The 14% figure is a very high fraud rate.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. With regard to the reviews we have done of child benefit in the most recent years, 6% show savings to be achieved.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

In respect of non-resident children, what is the figure?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have that figure separately but I will get it for the Deputy if required.

We have the baseline figure of 14% going back a few years. Surely the Department is keeping an eye on that.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We would have to do a full survey again. We have a programme of doing two surveys per year. We will have to go back to the child benefit issue as we have not repeated it.

The amounts of money concerned are pretty big. Why is the non-resident children bill much higher, proportionately, for the early child care supplement than child benefit?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Is the Deputy looking at the proportion with regard to the overall number?

Yes. The figure is 0.5% with regard to child benefit but 1.5% with regard to the early child care supplement.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

People coming from the EU are relatively younger than the overall number claiming here so they would have more children under the age of six. The two programmes would not be an exact ratio of each other, so that brings about a difference.

Ms Lacey indicated that letters are sent out to verify that a person is living and working here. What about the other side, which is to verify the number of children a person has? How does that work?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Is the Deputy referring to verifying the number of children in the programme who are abroad?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

This is why the process takes so long. We may get in touch with our opposite numbers at local level in Poland, for example, who would have responsibility for paying the child benefit in that country. We get verification of the number of people in the family, where the children are, who is taking care of them and whether the——

Is Ms Lacey satisfied that it is a robust system and that she is getting co-operation?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is the most robust system we can——

Are the replies speedy?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It takes quite a long time to get replies. Often by the time we get the reply the person has returned home, so we are just paying for the period he or she was here and closing the claim.

Once it is verified that those children exist and where they are living, is a once-off payment made for the period the parent was living here?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

Is that included in the figure of €20 million?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is not included as a saving. We only count savings with regard to claims that were in payment where we stopped them, whereas in this case we are talking about a control check before we start paying.

Is it a recent practice that claims are sorted out by way of lump sum payment?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is a recent practice because people have gone home but, from the beginning, when people came here we did not pay them until we had carried out a full verification with our opposite number in Eastern Europe, or wherever the claimant was from, to ensure the children were there and confirm who had responsibility and what was being paid.

There is also reference to cross-Border fraud and the extraordinary numbers shown up by the multi-agency vehicle checks. How many of those checks have been conducted in the past six months?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The multi-agency checks are a fairly recent thing set up by the Garda, with whom we co-operate. We have had just two operations, one in February and one in March, and a further one in the past day or so. Overall we have had about 20 checks.

What figures were shown up by those checks?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have the figures as many of the checks were done fairly recently, but it will be feeding through.

Some of the figures were in the media recently, were they not?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There were some figures in the media but I do not have them here. I will get them to the Deputy. A survey was done in recent days in the north west which turned up reasonably substantial numbers. The numbers are small but proportionately quite high. We are doing one of these multi-agency vehicle checks per Garda region per week. That is the process at the moment.

I have a figure here but I am not sure what it relates to. Twelve cars have been taken and another 24 cases are being investigated for——

Out of a total of what?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Out of the last two operations.

Does Ms Lacey have any idea how many cars were checked in the last two operations?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have that.

I thought these figures were being quoted in the media during the week. They were on "Today with Pat Kenny".

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am not sure, as this is all fairly recent. Some 53 people were interviewed in the two operations and 22 were referred for review.

Maybe Ms Lacey could come back to us with more details on what those checks have thrown up.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will.

With regard to the area of rent supplement, what kind of contact is there between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in terms of moving people who are on rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, which is more cost effective and better for the client? It seems the numbers transferring are quite low compared to the potential, and certainly there is a major demand for it. What is happening on that front?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have been working closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government with regard to moving people across. The numbers moved have been smaller than we had anticipated. However, we have been investigating with that Department in recent weeks the possibility of increasing the numbers this year, particularly in view of the fact that local authorities may have available housing from their social housing policy and we might be able to move more people over than we had originally planned.

Overall it is very cost-effective to the State and to the recipient who is then able to go out to work and move towards independence.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I agree, and that is why we are so keen to move things on. One of the changes we made in recent years was that where somebody has been certified as being suitable for RAS, while waiting to be moved on to the scheme he or she can go back to work while retaining the rent supplement. That is one of the easements we have made. I agree with the Deputy and it is a direction we are very keen to move in.

Is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government not enthusiastic about it? What is the problem?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is enthusiastic, but there are always issues with regard to resources, the provision of houses and so on. We have negotiated with the Department over the past week or so to investigate other possibilities.

However, it is more about moving resources than giving additional resources, is it not?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The issue for the local authorities is that they need capital investment to acquire houses, whereas we are paying rent supplement from current expenditure. We must continue to pay the person while the local authority is obtaining the house. It is a timing issue, but we are moving towards a solution.

This committee produced a report on taxation of rental income, and Ms Lacey was involved in the hearings on this issue last year. I wonder what progress has been made in two areas. Is the Department now providing names and PPS numbers to the PRTB on a routine basis when landlords receive rent supplement?

Last year there was no system in place to collect tax from non-resident landlords. I note the number of alleged, or claimed, non-resident landlords has actually gone up. Has the Department now put a system in place to capture the tax due on that rent?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We provided the information to the PRTB all along on a quarterly basis, as it could deal with it, but we now provide it on a regular basis as its position has changed.

Has the form been changed?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We provide all the information to the PRTB and it now provides information to us on landlords who have registered so we can check against our schemes to see whether these landlords are claiming on means-based schemes.

There are 147 non-resident landlords, most of whom are in Northern Ireland or the UK, according to their addresses. We have not put anything in place in this regard because the Minister for Finance was carrying out a review of whether the legislation should be changed with regard to the requirement for the tenant to notify the Department of Finance, and we are waiting for his decision, which should be fairly soon. Depending on the outcome, we will investigate what we need to do at that stage. Payments of about €1 million are going out to non-resident landlords. The development of a system that would deduct and account for this money would be extremely expensive, so we need to be sure that if we develop something it will have a reasonable lifetime.

I want to return to some of the areas covered by Deputy Shortall, including rent supplement. Could Ms Lacey go into a little more detail with regard to her Department's interaction with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities? Does it deal with the local authorities directly or does it go through that Department?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

With regard to policy and the arrangements for the RAS, we deal with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to agree the overall approach and streaming. Where a local authority identifies that it has accommodation available that will be dealt with at local level.

What I am getting at is the operation of the RAS, although this could be a question for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Certain local authorities operate the scheme differently. In some instances, if a person goes onto the RAS scheme he or she is taken off the social housing list. That is obviously a big barrier for people in making a decision. If after being on the list for three or four years they go on the RAS and are knocked off the social housing list, they will have no prospect of getting their own house. I do not wish to stray into policy but does the Department of Social and Family Affairs know the differences between local authorities in this regard? Some operate the scheme in a manner which allows a person to get a house under RAS and stay on the social housing list, while others simply take them off the scheme.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am not sure that we would know. The policy regarding whether a person goes onto RAS or into social housing is a matter for the local authority itself.

That is one of the main reasons for the low take-up on RAS in certain counties where a person who has been on a list for three to five years and is offered a five-year RAS tenancy is then automatically taken off the social housing list. Is there a representative present from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No.

The committee might ask the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for that information because this is a major block in getting people onto the RAS. My own county council in Fingal takes people off the social housing list if they take a RAS house, which is obviously a big deterrent for people who do not want to go down that road. We might look at that issue separately.

We have discussed rent supplement a number of times but I refer to the checks on tenants who receive the supplement. I know the Department's resources are being used in many different areas and are stretched. What proportion of tenants are checked to make sure they comply with the rent supplement requirements? We pay perhaps €1,100 to €1,200 a month in certain instances but are other people living in the house? Is it sublet? Are regular checks carried out?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not carry out such checks. The community welfare officer would visit the individual from time to time but a rate is set for each locality according to the rent standards at a particular time. We pay the individual in the situation, whether in a family or single. A single individual will get an accommodation appropriate to him or her but we do not follow——

What about a person who has had complaints about a tenant? It may be a small percentage but there have been cases where complaints were received by the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB, or by the local authority in respect of a tenant who subsequently is moved from that house but automatically gets another rent supplement and is moved into another house. There does not appear to be any penalty imposed on such people.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The rent supplement scheme is designed to enable people to get accommodation so that they are not on the street. If tenants are being disruptive, local authorities have powers to move them out of their areas but under present legislation the person is entitled to the rent supplement.

Is that being reviewed?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Does the Deputy mean an overall review?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Rent supplement is being reviewed but not the policy.

Does the nature of the review relate to the amount the local authority pays?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

How soon will that review be available?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We hope to have it by mid-year.

How long have the rates struck for each local authority and area remained in place? When were they last reviewed?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The rates were struck in January 2007 and were to be reviewed in mid-2008. However, in the early part of that period rents continued to rise but had begun to even out by the middle of the year and had begun to fall. We decided to wait until now to review them. In most areas, rents are coming back to the levels they were at in January 2007.

Will the review be completed in a matter of months?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

Payments of rent supplement were mentioned earlier. Are these paid directly to the tenant or to the landlord?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

In general, payments are made to the tenant unless he or she specifies that another person will collect it. This might not be the landlord, necessarily, but might be a family member. It sometimes happens that when people are a bit chaotic in their arrangements, payment is made to somebody else in order to manage it. Of the 74,000, at present 55,000 go directly to the individual.

Will that system be reviewed? Does the Department find it is the best way to do it? What about defaulting on rents?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is our current policy. The payment belongs to the individual.

What about the RAS?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The RAS is a different scheme.

That is my point. There are difficulties. People who are in receipt of rent supplement or allowance obviously have financial difficulties. The RAS is paid directly to the landlords and it is a much easier way of getting landlords registered. I understand that if this concerns policy, Ms Lacey cannot stray into the subject. However, we have raised this matter before. The committee should ask the Minister to examine this because I do not believe it is the most appropriate way for rent to be paid. If people dip into the rent allowance each month they are left in difficulties which then come back to the Department. We can take that matter up separately.

Another issue for examination is whether some of the registered accommodation is up to standard. There is plenty of evidence, which I come across frequently, that subsidies are given for apartments or flats which, in come cases, are hovels. These are places that do not meet even basic building regulations. Any review of the scheme should include an examination of the standard of accommodation.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

This matter was raised before and I appreciate there is an issue here. The responsibility for the standard of accommodation lies with the local authority. Our problem is that we do not have people with the expertise to assess the suitability or quality of houses. I understand the legislation changed recently in respect of the standards of accommodation that must apply in new tenancies. There is also a four or five-year period for existing landlords to get their act in gear.

I thank Ms Lacey.

With specific regard to the PRTB, a portion of the fund is paid to that body and the registration goes to the local authority. The local authority housing officer is supposed to check as much as possible but in previous hearings we learned that this is not happening. The only time the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government liaises with local authorities is through an annual report and this is a big issue. We want to make sure people have the best standard of accommodation available. The Department of Social and Family Affairs should have a say in that because it pays the rent and therefore it should be a concern that rent of up to €1,200 per month is not paid out for substandard accommodation. The committee must address this matter again with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, otherwise the situation will not improve.

Ms Lacey stated that additional resources have been allocated for local social welfare offices to deal with the increased numbers on the live register. I know from dealing with her Department that the staff are working extremely hard and are under pressure on the ground. How far do current resources go to meeting——

We have been through all of that in detail.

I am sorry. I apologise for not being here earlier. I had to attend another meeting. I will not cover that again. I have a specific question concerning the social welfare office in Balbriggan. I do not know whether that was raised today. The position is that unemployment in that area has risen by up to 70% and the social welfare office is closed. I understand discussions are under way for a new lease. However, there is nowhere for people in the Balbriggan area to sign on. Can the delegation explain the position with regard to sourcing a new office and what changes have been introduced to facilitate people from the Balbriggan area who must sign on?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am very aware of the situation in Balbriggan, which we have been trying to address for some time, even before the substantial growth in unemployment. There was a branch office in Balbriggan and the branch manager retired. We have been trying to find alternative accommodation since then and to set up an office. For the moment, claims are dealt with through our Coolock office on a support basis. Signing has been suspended for a period and we also deal with people over the telephone and by post. However, we are pushing very hard. We have identified several offices requiring work, but acquiring a replacement office for Balbriggan is the number one priority on our list with the Office of Public Works. We are very keen to get something in there.

I know that it is a priority and I appreciate that. I do not wish to stray too much into local issues, but from a general point of view this could affect any town throughout the country. When did we begin to look for a new premises? If the senior officer in the area retires——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is a very specific issue involving a branch manager and the branch manager gives notice that he or she will retire.

When did the Department start working on acquiring an alternative office? Did it wait until the official retired?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, we started long before that. Even before the branch manager signalled that she intended to retire, we were already looking for offices in Balbriggan to deal with what we knew to be a growing population in that area, aside from the downturn. It is simply that we had a great deal of difficulty in getting premises. The Office of Public Works negotiates the contracts for the property and there has been a great deal of difficulty in getting it. I realise people will have identified that there is property available.

I can give the Secretary General a list of ten properties tomorrow.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will leave it to the Office of Public Works to address the issue. Very often when the Office of Public Works goes out to negotiate for property, the price might not be suitable. There is an issue in this case which we are addressing. We are working to be able to——

Can the Secretary General provide a timeframe?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I cannot, because the Office of Public Works must provide it, rather than me.

We will consider the matter.

We will certainly, Chairman, but I assume we will learn from this situation. It could occur in any other town in the country, but it so happens that it is slap, bang in the middle of my constituency. The OPW looks after the rents for all our offices. It appeared before the committee last week and we discussed the matter.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

When the branch manager retired we decided we would replace the branch office with one of our local offices. We have done so in several areas and there is always a difficulty, because it is necessary to acquire new premises.

I thank the Chairman.

I missed part of the discussion due to events in the Dáil, but I welcome the Secretary General and the delegation. I realise Deputy Fleming may have put the question earlier, but I refer to the social insurance fund. Mercer carried out a study on the fund some years ago, possibly 2005 or 2006, and it was anticipated that it would run into deficit in two or three years. What is the current position with the fund? We have the 2007 figures to hand. How is the prediction from that study panning out in respect of a deficit or surplus?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As the Deputy is probably aware, the prediction was out. It had been anticipated that the fund would run out in 2016. In 2008 for the first time, the expenditure was greater than the income, so there was a deficit of €230 million. At the end of 2008 the fund amounted to €3.4 billion. However, we anticipate that will run out this year.

Will we be in serious deficit this year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am not sure how much over the €3.4 billion. It will run out, but I expect that would be towards the end of the year. Next year we will definitely be in deficit.

Will normal current taxation make up for it?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The normal process, and what took place up to the mid-1990s, is that the Exchequer makes up the gap and that may be the case for the future. The alternative is to increase contributions to the fund.

Has the Department carried out any extrapolations into the future? For example, what will the position be as the recession pans out through 2012 or 2013?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have not done so at this stage. The rate of increase in the live register, the demand on the system and the drop in the contributions had not been anticipated and we are still trying to assess the situation. We are working on the figures as we go along, but it is anticipated that by next year we will need full subvention for it. The figures in respect of——

A full subvention.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, it is not that the social insurance fund will need to be fully subvented, because there will be next year's income to offset against the expenditure. However, there will not be anything left in the fund to carry over for this year.

Is the Secretary General saying the fund will run out next year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The fund will run out this year, or rather it will be late this year or early next year. The projections would normally be addressed by the Department of Finance in respect of the live register and income.

Is it fair to say that the social insurance fund is now in crisis and that the way we have funded benefit for much of the history of the State is now in very serious crisis? Is it the case that, allied to the general fiscal crisis, this may need to be addressed in some weeks time?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There may be need either for an Exchequer subvention or an examination of how the income for the fund is achieved and whether that is a matter for examining the rates or anything else.

Does that include, for example, the free schemes provided through the benefit system?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That would be part of it. Any of the schemes would need to be addressed, but that is a matter for policy.

Does the Department have projections for this year and next year in respect of the fund?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is extremely difficult to project, because as the live register increases quickly——

I appreciate that.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

——the extent of the income stream is difficult to measure, so I am unsure whether it is possible.

There is the also the matter of contributions.

Mr. Fred Foster

This must all be looked at in the context of the mini-budget, or whatever description one wishes to apply to it.

Let us call it the first budget of 2009 of which we know.

Mr. Fred Foster

As the Secretary General has said, many mechanisms can be used. It is possible that the Vote will run out this year, but I hope the position is not quite so bad and that we will make it into 2010 before elimination of the surplus which has been built up.

Is the prediction that we will make it into 2010 based on unemployment figures of 450,000 or 500,000? What are the parameters of that prediction?

Mr. Fred Foster

Until developments on 7 April I am constrained in indicating what the parameters will be. Obviously, unemployment is a serious concern to all of us. It has been continuing and escalating as we can see from the level in the first quarter of this year compared with even the final quarter of last year. There is an element of crystal ball gazing on how far and how deep it will go.

The crisis which is emerging in the social insurance fund is obviously a major issue which may have to be dealt with on 7 April next.

Mr. Fred Foster

Absolutely. The fund had been in surplus each year since 1997. As the Secretary General said, even though we shipped approximately €230 million in damage last year, we still had €3.4 billion at the end of the year. The extent to which that will be eroded this year does, as I said, depend on the interaction of PRSI buoyancy on the receipts side, plus the extent of the outlays which will have to be borne from the live register, plus what, if any, measures will be taken in next month's determination of policy.

Effectively, we could be looking at an empty kitty.

Mr. Fred Foster

We would, on our projections, need to look at a very rapid further deterioration to actually exhaust it all. Certainly, by early next year, it will be eliminated.

My colleague, Deputy Fleming, asked a question at this particular meeting last year on the investment side of things. If we were caught up in the disastrous situation in the markets, how did returns on investments perform? We have the figure for 2007 but do we have any information on what happened throughout 2008 regarding the management of the fund and the rate of return?

Mr. Fred Foster

There has been an issue, which is what led to much of the discussion at this event last year, on the accrual of interest versus the cash receipt of interest and, because of a change in the way the investment had been managed during 2006, there was an apparent dip in the cash flow. It can be seen in the 2006 figures compared with those for 2007. The €53 million recorded in 2006 increased to €112 million and I am glad to say it increased further in 2008 to approximately €160 million. Obviously, as the investment pool from the accumulated surplus reduces now, the investment income will naturally decline.

The NTMA has responsibility in that area as well. I understand the last figures we had on unemployment levels showed that approximately 70,000 of the 350,000 currently unemployed are migrant workers, people who may have entered the State in the last eight or ten years. There may be questions on those figures. Do we have any information on what the unemployment rate is for migrants who entered the State since, for example, January 2004 when there was a massive expansion of the European Union and hundreds of thousands of Poles, Latvians and others came to work here? Are there any figures on their unemployment rate, as it currently stands? Some people have complained about the difficulties in accessing unemployment benefit that people have three or four years experience of.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The figures at the end of January show that the number from Ireland was 280,000. The number from the 12 EU states was 40,000. The figure for the rest of the world, excluding combined EU countries, was approximately 10,000.

Has anyone done any work on the actual unemployment rates among the new Irish or those two groups of 60,000 people and how they are faring? Clearly, thousands of people have returned to other European countries but many people are still signing on. Are there any figures on an unemployment rate for those people as we head towards a rate of 10%?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not. As we do not know how many returned home, it is difficult to get an unemployment rate for the numbers here.

Has any analysis been carried out on the number of people currently at work and who took out PPS numbers in the period in question vis-à-vis the numbers who are now not paying tax or signing on?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not have a breakdown of the number of people by nationality who are in employment because we do not have the figures.

There is no way to ascertain the employment rate among new workers.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Among those who are still here?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, we do not have that information.

I would like clarification on the comments made on the social insurance fund. It is not an exact science, by any means, but can the delegation tell us what the situation is for the current year? It was stated that at the start of the year there was €3.4 billion in the fund.

Mr. Fred Foster

That is correct. At the end of 2008 the figure was just over €3.4 billion.

What are the projections for the receipts this year, in terms of PRSI?

Mr. Fred Foster

Again, that depends on the level of employment.

There must be some ballpark figure for the overall year for what is likely to be put into the fund.

Mr. Fred Foster

We do, but it is very much driven by the balance between PRSI inflows and unemployment. There are various projections which would move around, depending on what assumptions one makes. For example, if one assumes a figure of 340,000 or 350,000 on the live register, the annual deficit would amount to approximately €2 billion, in the context of existing arrangements.

That is taking into consideration what is in the fund at the start of the year.

Mr. Fred Foster

Yes.

Does it take into consideration what will be going in as PRSI payments.

Mr. Fred Foster

No, the annual deficit will be just over €2 billion, which would mean the end of year surplus would be just over €1 billion, on the cumulative balance.

Would the end of the year be flat? Would the fund be gone?

Mr. Fred Foster

No, it would be down to about €1 billion by the end of the year, on that assumption. As I said, it is highly dependent on the particular set of assumptions one makes about employment, migration and unemployment.

Okay. Assuming things continue as they are, which is the best case scenario, will there be at least a €2.4 billion hole in the social insurance fund at the start of next year?

Mr. Fred Foster

I do not want to be pressed on this because it depends on assumptions made about the economy, unemployment and employment, which will not be finalised until finalisation of what will be announced next month.

I fully appreciate that.

Mr. Fred Foster

I am constrained.

I appreciate that fully. If the current trend continues, without any other change, we are facing a €2.4 billion hole at the start of next year.

Mr. Fred Foster

No, we would still have €1.3 billion left coming into the year.

Compared with this year.

Mr. Fred Foster

On that assumption we would still have a residual left to meet some of the imbalance between inflows and outflows.

Without any further disimprovement in the unemployment situation and if things were to remain static, there will be a €1.4 billion gap next year.

Mr. Fred Foster

This year the gap between inflows and outflows, based on those assumptions, would be approximately €2 billion, which is what is eroding the accumulated €3 billion down to €1 billion. If one assumes continuation of the situation this year, that is the answer. It is approximately €2 billion.

There is some disparity between the delegation's projections and those of the Department.

Mr. Fred Foster

We are doing a certain amount of tick-tacking. We are not quite at the same point in the exercise.

Is the Department of Social and Family Affairs operating on the basis that the fund will run out at the end of this year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

At the end of this year or early next year. I cannot be precise for the very reasons——

Either way, the Department faces a dire situation.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is a fact that the downturn has affected the inflows into the expenditure .

How long has the social insurance fund been in place? It is a long time.

Mr. Fred Foster

A long time. It is probably older than me.

A few minutes ago Mr. Foster said that there had been a surplus in the accounts since 1997. What happened on previous occasions when there was a deficit? Was the fund ever in a negative position prior to this?

Mr. Fred Foster

It was regularly in deficit.

Therefore this is not new.

Mr. Fred Foster

No. It is new in the past 11 years.

We are talking about the fund running out, not a deficit in the fund.

Mr. Fred Foster

The social and family affairs Vote used to feed in the shortfall between the outlays. That is what we anticipate will recur in the new scenario when that point is reached.

Were we ever in a position where the fund was negative? I am not talking about a deficit for a year. Was the €3.6 billion ever utterly depleted?

Mr. Fred Foster

Almost by definition it cannot build up a deficit because of the Vote unless there are lubrication issues. There might be a small balance if at year end we have not got on top of what the fund requires. That would be small beer. The Vote feeds in the estimated imbalance each year. An accumulated deficit in the fund would not arise.

On page 8 of those accounts it is stated that at the end of 2007 there was a balance recoverable from employers of €89.3 million. That is obviously much higher now. That has been carried in the balance sheet of the social insurance fund for the past 11 years at least, as a recoverable amount, when it was in surplus. A note at the bottom of page 8, however, states that the recovery experience of recent years suggests that a significant part of the cumulative liabilities of defaulting employers may not be recovered. What is that figure now? It did not present a problem to keep that as a recoverable amount in the balance sheet of the social insurance fund in recent years but now that the account is in deficit we will have to take the hit on that €90 million this year and provide for it because it is in the balance sheet although it is not really recoverable from the social welfare Estimates at the end of this year or the beginning of next year. The non-recoverability of that €90 million, or probably more now, will crystallise once the account goes into deficit. Will we now have to pick up the tab which we were able to long finger from year to year, on top of everything else we have discussed?

Mr. Fred Foster

I am not quite sure about the latter point. That arose on the redundancy fund. We will not close down the social insurance fund. It will be maintained by way of the Vote feed. PRSI will continue to flow into it and the benefit pay-out will continue as usual but the Exchequer will recoup the shortfall as a feed. The crystallisation that the Deputy might associate with a closedown or a cessation——

I am not talking about a closedown. We are looking at the balance sheet for 2007 which shows a balance of €3.6 billion. That figure includes €90 million that the Department expects to recover from the employers who did not pay the statutory redundancy. As long as there are funds in that account the Exchequer never has to find that €90 million but once that €3.6 billion goes into negative figures that €90 million the Department had been carrying in the hope of collecting will also go this year and——

Mr. Fred Foster

No, the new arrangement will not interfere with that. The fund continues and the employers' obligation stands. I cannot see it having any impact on that.

If the Department said 14 months ago, at the end of 2007, that it did not expect to recover this €90 million we would be codding ourselves if in this year's Estimates we were to pretend that we will recover that €90 million.

Mr. Fred Foster

The assumptions on which the figures I gave the Deputy are based derive from the PRSI flows and the outlays on the expenditure side. The Deputy is talking about a side transaction between the redundancy fund and the social insurance fund. In so far as the outlays on the social insurance fund are concerned there would be a corresponding support for the redundancy fund from my colleague in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Mr. John Buckley

If the Deputy looks at the balance sheet he will see that the €89 million is a memorandum figure. It is not carried as a collectable amount.

Mr. John Buckley

Yes. If the Deputy looks at the balance sheet he will not find anything resembling €89 million. It is purely a memorandum figure contained in a note disclosing how much is potentially collectable. The Deputy might recall that when the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment came before the committee a few weeks ago, we debated the question of recoverability.

In other words, that amount has already been written off but is kept there just to record how much we have deemed uncollectable.

As there have been more redundancies in 2008 and 2009 and the Department has to pay the employers' amount of the redundancy payment, together with any arrears of wages and holiday payments, is it able to list those as preferential creditors, like a Revenue debt when it comes to liquidation? If so, the Department has a better chance of getting the money back.

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

Yes, the bad debts arise and as the level of redundancies rises we expect the level of debt to increase incrementally. The Comptroller and Auditor General examined this issue and we are considering the recovery of debts. We have instituted a recovery unit to recover what we pay up front in the first instance if we have to deal with defaulting employers. We always retain that. We have a list of those people who owe us and they are preferential creditors. We establish that by writing to the companies or the liquidators and we follow up on that. We recovered just under €1 million in 2008 and so far this year we have recovered €1.6 million. We follow up liquidators and employers individually.

How much did the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment pay out? In the previous year the Department paid out €12 million and in 2007 it recovered €1.5 million. What did it pay out in 2008?

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

The pay-out on insolvency and recoveries was approximately €191 million. They are provisional figures.

How much was recovered from the €191 million?

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

For last year it was just less than €1 million. If employers go to the wall or go into liquidation, it is unlikely that amount of money can be recovered.

Does the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment help to watch for people behind those companies coming back under different guises?

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

Yes, we would have the employer reference and the PPSN numbers, so we would watch for repeat offenders.

How many people has the Department refused to allow to register a new company?

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

If there is a debt owing to the social insurance fund by virtue of tax and we have paid out redundancy on insolvency, we institute a procedure with the Companies Registration Office so that it does not strike off those companies so that we still have a legal entity to follow.

If the promoters of those companies came back to establish a new company the following year, is there a procedure to prevent that while they are still a preferential creditor in your books?

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne: I would need to check with our company law side on that. At this point I do not think there is a direct link.

It would be unsatisfactory if someone could go into liquidation as a preferential creditor and there was nothing to prevent that person from incorporating as a new company the following month. That would be quite a lacuna in our legislation and, if so, the committee will take it further.

Ms Anne Coleman-Dunne

If there was an issue we could refer the case to the ODCE, which would look at the ability of people to be appointed company directors.

Could we get a comprehensive note on that?

On the corresponding issue of limited liability, which the committee is pursuing, are there corresponding figures available for the Department of Social and Family Affairs for the PRSI it has lost from companies that went to the wall in the past year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have that figure. Revenue collects PRSI.

Are those figures available for last year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I shall check.

Mr. John Buckley

Most of the issues dealt with surround current operational risks and how they have been managed by the Department, such as risk of recourse to benefit for people whose activities span both sides of the Border.

One performance issue was touched on — potential or real savings. We have been telling the Department for years that we are not convinced savings are the ideal way to measure performance and that it should estimate the underlying level of error and fraud because the real measure of control success is the difference between that baseline and the detection rate, the figure we quote in the presentation today.

The Department signalled that it would move in that direction and has conducted several error and fraud surveys that we will look at in more detail. The ongoing discussions with the Department would cover the area of getting a sharper focus on performance. We would not regard savings as being the best indicator of success, so there is still progress to be made.

I thank Mr. Buckley. Is it agreed that we note chapters 12.1 to 12.3 and the chapter on the social insurance fund? Agreed. Our agenda for 26 March includes Vote 19 — Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 21 — prisons; chapter 6.1 — procurement in the Irish Prison Service, and chapter 6.2 — travel expenses.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 26 March 2009.
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