COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2023

Financial Statements 2021 - Sport Ireland and Sport Ireland Facilities DAC

Dr. Una May (Chief Executive Officer, Sport Ireland) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputies Colm Burke and Alan Dillon.

I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that does not happen. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Mr. Andrew Harkness, director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning, we will engage with Sport Ireland to examine the following matters: Financial Statements 2021 - Sport Ireland and Sport Ireland Facilities DAC. We are joined by the following representatives of Sport Ireland: Dr. Una May, chief executive officer; Mr. John Foley, cathaoirleach; Mr. Colm McGinty, director of governance, risk, compliance and strategy; Mr. Jason McLoughlin, director of finance and corporate services; and Mr. Michael Murray, chief operations officer. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media: Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary with responsibility for sport; and Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire, principal officer, sports policy.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As members are aware, Sport Ireland was established under the provisions of the Sport Ireland Act 2015 to succeed the previous Irish Sports Council. Sport Ireland's main functions are to encourage the promotion, development and co-ordination of competitive sport and to facilitate increased participation in sport by the population generally.

Sport Ireland is almost exclusively State-funded from the Vote for tourism, culture, arts, Gaeltacht, sport and media. In 2021, Sport Ireland's income from all State sources totalled more than €178 million out of total income of €179.6 million. Sport Ireland's expenditure in 2021 was €175 million. Some 82% of this was accounted for by recurrent grant payments to support sports bodies and individual sports persons. The largest single expenditure area was €73.6 million paid in 2021 under the Covid resilience scheme, which provided exceptional financial support for the sector to alleviate the impact of Covid-19, especially on the main field sports. Expenditure under the scheme in 2020 was €88.5 million.

Sport Ireland's statement of financial position reflects past investment in the provision of the extensive Sports Campus Ireland facilities. Depreciation on the assets totalling €5.8 million is reflected in the income and expenditure statement. Sport Ireland's salary, pensions and administration costs in 2021 amounted to just under €7.6 million. Sport Ireland's surplus for the year was €5.75 million.

Sport Ireland Facilities designated activity company, DAC, is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sport Ireland. The company's primary objective is to operate and maintain the facilities of the Sport Ireland campus. Separate financial statements are prepared in respect of the company. In 2021, the company received an operating grant of just under €5.5 million and a capital grant of just under €2.8 million from Sport Ireland. It generated turnover of almost €3.5 million from fees and charges and returned a surplus of €29,000 for the year.

The 2021 financial statements of both Sport Ireland and Sport Ireland Facilities DAC received unqualified audit opinions.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I invite Dr. May to make her opening statement.

Dr. Una May

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting to discuss the 2021 financial statements for Sport Ireland and Sport Ireland Facilities DAC. I am joined today by other representatives of Sport Ireland: John Foley, the newly appointed chairperson at Sport Ireland; Jason McLoughlin, director of finance and corporate services at Sport Ireland; Colm McGinty, director of governance, risk, compliance and strategy at Sport Ireland; and Michael Murray, chief operating officer at Sport Ireland Facilities DAC. To assist the discussion today and in line with the letter of invitation, we have submitted some briefing material to the committee. I am grateful for the opportunity to make this opening statement in addition to that material, although I will probably cover some of the ground that has already been covered.

Sport Ireland is the statutory authority tasked with the development of sport in Ireland. Established under the Sport Ireland Act 2015, we are tasked with increasing participation in sport, supporting Ireland’s high-performance athletes, operating Ireland’s anti-doping programme, delivering coaching training and developing the Sport Ireland Campus, among plenty of other functions and areas in our remit.

Sport Ireland is funded by the Government through its parent Department, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport, and Media, and we have an oversight agreement in place with this Department. We support the delivery of the Government's national sports policy, which recognises the influence and importance of sport across society.

Ireland has experienced remarkable sporting success in recent times. Despite being ranked 125th in the world in population, the country has consistently achieved impressive results across a diverse range of sports. In 2022, alongside an exciting year for the GAA, Ireland was number one in the world rugby rankings, achieved the first world championship gymnastics medal and qualified for the women’s soccer world cup. The year also saw our highest-ever recorded medal achievement by Sport Ireland-funded programmes at major international events. More than 100 major medals were won by Irish athletes across a wide range of sports.

Irish sport is thriving and reaching new levels of success. However, it is important to acknowledge that, both domestically and globally, sports are experiencing a time of significant change.

During 2020 and 2021, Covid-19 restrictions led to large-scale decreases in sporting activity across the country. National and international competitions, alongside participation opportunities, were severely hampered. In response to this, Sport Ireland and the Government provided targeted Covid-19 resilience and recovery funds. This investment addressed the immediate financial and operational needs of the sector. I am immensely proud of Sport Ireland's response to the Covid-19 crisis. All of our staff responded remarkably to the new and additional requirements placed upon them during an exceptionally difficult period. This additional effort, agility and flexibility can be seen in the many examples of quality initiatives and proactive support delivered by Sport Ireland to the Irish sports sector and the wider Irish public during this time.

Internationally, the achievement of major medals occurs in a global arena; it is dependent on stability in these environments to provide Irish athletes with an opportunity to compete. Sport Ireland monitors closely actions by various international sporting federations which have a direct impact on Irish athletes and the medal targets outlined in our strategy.

As we enter our next five-year strategic cycle, Sport Ireland will focus on ensuring that Ireland is an active nation where people are encouraged to participate, progress and achieve in sport. We have a strong body of research to illustrate the benefits of sport and physical activity to Ireland's society and economy. We believe this importance will continue to grow.

In the coming years, there will be a significant increase in the number of teenagers and older individuals in Ireland. As a result, it will be crucial to address the specific needs and demands that arise from this demographic shift.

Sport Ireland will work to achieve the increased participation and engagement targets as set out in the national sports policy. According to our latest unpublished research, which was conducted by Ipsos MRBI on behalf of Sport Ireland, participation in sport increased in 2022 with 43% of the population participating regularly in sport, a three-percentage point increase since 2021.

Sport Ireland seeks to widen participation through the delivery of our women in sport policy, our diversity and inclusion policy, our policy on participation in sport by people with disabilities and numerous other policies we have targeting specific areas. It is vital that Sport Ireland works collectively to support the development of national governing bodies, NGBs, local sports partnerships and other partner bodies so that the wider sport system continues to grow and thrive.

There has been much public and media discourse on the topics of governance and regulation in Irish sports. The NGBs are in a dynamic phase with many transitioning to a professional setup. Change is difficult and can lead to periodic challenges. Sport Ireland is not a regulatory body. As a development agency, we have an acknowledged sectoral leadership role in this area and work on the promotion and incentivisation of good governance practices, including the adoption of the Governance Code for Sport.

The development and management of the Sport Ireland Campus is another key role for Sport Ireland. In November 2022, we launched our campus master plan vision, which outlines the direction of our campus's future development over the next 15 to 20 years. I am happy to report that progress is under way, with planning permission secured for the national velodrome and badminton centre earlier this year and plans being advanced for athlete accommodation and the development of a permanent home for Irish cricket. Individual building and infrastructure projects will be delivered in a series of phases over the next five years and beyond. I look forward to engaging with Government on the delivery of capital funding on a multi-annual basis to enable the delivery of major capital projects on the campus and to further realise the vision of an inspirational location for Irish sport. I am also acutely aware of the need for a sustainable campus that delivers on sustainable development goals, responsibilities and climate action targets.

We passionately believe in a strong sport sector that can provide opportunities for everyone to enjoy sport and physical activity. This work is key to supporting Ireland's changing population. We are a very small team with a big remit and ambitious targets. Sport Ireland will need to grow our staffing and capacity to embrace the next stage of our development and deliver the expected services to the sports sector and the Irish public.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, and our colleagues in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport, and Media for their ongoing support, particularly in the context of the actions assigned to Sport Ireland under the national sports policy.

I acknowledge the strategic leadership provided by the board members of Sport Ireland, particularly for their support in developing a new statement of strategy for the organisation which will be published shortly. Finally, and crucially, I pay tribute to the staff of Sport Ireland for their ongoing commitment and dedication.

I welcome this discussion with the committee, and I am happy to answer any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. May. I call Deputy McAuliffe.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I welcome all the witnesses and thank Dr. May for her opening statement.

I will start with that issue of governance. It is a mistake that Sport Ireland is not a regulatory body but has a leadership position in governance. I suppose, as a key funder, Sport Ireland also has an additional tool in the toolbox. That was seen, probably most recently, in the area of boxing. I should preface my remarks by saying that I believe boxing is a fantastic sport that often reaches into communities not reached by other sporting organisations.

No doubt last year was a difficult year for Irish boxing and saw the departure of key talent from the high performance unit. I wonder if Dr. May could update the committee in regards to where governance in Irish boxing is now. Sport Ireland welcomed the results of the second EGM and the MacNeice report, etc. Where are things now, seven months on from that?

Dr. Una May

I guess there is a couple of questions there. One of them was around Sport Ireland's role as a development agency. That is something we take very seriously. We believe that we can transform the sector and help the sector to transform and to go through periods of difficult change as it becomes more professional. That is where we see our key value in what we can do, and the expertise we can offer and support we can provide to the sector.

The withholding of funding is something that we do not do lightly. It is very much a last resort because our preference, our understanding and our belief is that withholding funding does not really help to grow and build capacity in an organisation.

To follow on then to the Deputy's specific question about boxing, boxing has made a lot of very good progress. We met, only last week, with the new chair of boxing - a new independent chair. In recent years, they had a number of issues within the organisation and with governance and the relationship between both. The relationship with the executive and their boards is an issue in a lot of governing bodies and we are supporting them to understand better the boundaries and the roles and responsibilities of everyone involved.

We worked with boxing. They commissioned the MacNiece report. We funded the report. It came up with a number of recommendations. The initial reaction to those recommendations was not positive.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am aware of some of the history. I wonder if Dr. May could bring us to the point where Sport Ireland is now and her view of what measures have been taken since November of last year.

Dr. Una May

I would say that they have made a lot of good progress. As I say, they have appointed a new independent chair. They have, as the Deputy referred, in their EGM, adopted and approved many of the recommendations which had been previously contentious. They have appointed an interim high performance support person. They are working very hard to resolve, but the key is having a new chair. On the next step, they were awaiting the appointment of the new chair to appoint a new CEO. There is an interim CEO who has been working very closely with us in ensuring that all the key governance issues and the recommendations are being adopted.

We are comfortable that they are in a much better place. We have agreed with our Department that we will focus attention on helping to support them with the development in areas where they do not have-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Dr. May stated that withdrawal of funding is an issue of last resort and does not have a long-term impact. Is it correct that if the threat to withdraw funding had not been in place the changes she acknowledged most likely would not have happened?

Dr. Una May

I suppose I am not necessarily inclined to agree that it would not have happened because the changes were afoot.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There was a vote.

It was rejected, despite the funding threat being in place.

Dr. Una May

Changes have been made. There are new structures within the central council. There is an agreement to bring in more independence. Having independence on these committees, on boards and on the council, as it happens to be in boxing, is often what leads to better judgment, better decisions and better governance.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As well as its reach into communities, it has provided national heroes in the sense of Olympic athletes and so on. It was particularly disappointing that some key talent we had in the high-performance unit in the area of boxing has left under protest and in controversial circumstances. For example, Mr. Bernard Dunne has now signed with the Boxing Federation of India. Investing in sport happens for two reasons. We want to develop communities and provide opportunities for sporting participation but also to develop high-performance athletes. However, it seems we have not been able to do that in this sport. We seem to be exporting our expertise to other countries rather than retaining that talent. Is Sport Ireland confident that the changes that are coming - I note Dr. May uses that type of language - will result in a change in the high-performance unit?

Dr. Una May

It is really important to understand that we have at all times been cognisant of the importance of the high-performance programme in boxing. We have protected the high-performance system which is not something we tend to do. We do not tend to separate the high-performance system from a governing body but in the case of boxing, as the Deputy mentioned, it is a very important sport for Ireland and we have continued to provide close monitoring and support of the organisation. All our high-performance sports work in a very high-profile international environment. That creates pressures. When we have high levels of success, we become more attractive to other organisations and other countries. That is the nature of high-performance sport-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I beg to differ. This is not a case of talent being poached. We have had two cases where key pieces of talent have left, citing real, core problems in how they were able to do their job. They were people who were supporting our athletes on the front line of what high-performance boxing is about. It was not a case of us being so successful that our talent was poached. It was the case that circumstances allowed for that person to go and then to avail of subsequent opportunities.

Dr. Una May

It is important that I do not go into the level of personal information about individuals, their movements and their reasons for moving. That is a matter for the individuals and it is a matter for their boards to manage those situations. The important thing from our point of view is that we have ensured that we protected the high-performance system and that boxing has its high-performance location within the Sport Ireland institute. It has high level support around the institute. It has technical support within the institute. We are currently going through the process of presenting to our board additional supports around coaching and pathway development. There is significant investment. We have continued to fund the carded athletes. We have continued many of the supports that ensure our high-performance programme continues. Our boxers are very well looked after. They are in the middle of a difficult period internationally which has challenged the progress. We are confident that the boxers are in good shape and will continue to perform. In the next week or two, they will head to the European games, which is a major Olympic qualifier. We look forward to great success at that. That has been a challenge.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

While Sport Ireland is responsible for many matters, and the international boxing regulatory environment is not a question I am going to put to Dr. May, it is correct to say that it is an external threat to what is a key national resource. To continue on the issue of governance, will Dr. May update us on her view on where the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, stands?

Dr. Una May

I will give a brief overview. Mr. Colm McGinty has been closely involved in the process behind it. The FAI has come a long way. It was tasked with adopting 163 recommendations in the course of the memorandum of understanding, MoU, between the Government, the Minister and the FAI. Sport Ireland was tasked with monitoring the implementation of those recommendations. We had many meetings with the FAI in order to monitor the progress on that. It has made significant progress. The MoU ends at the end of 2023. We cannot say it has not completed the recommendations, but more than 90% are completed at this stage. We are confident that it is well and truly on the road to recovery. We have seen successful and ambitious-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What is the situation on its financial stability?

Dr. Una May

It had a challenging time. It was without a finance director for the past number of months, due to the issues with the labour market everybody faces. It has put in additional resources, high level and highly-qualified individuals who have ensured that its financial procedures are in order. Many of the recommendations related to the financial procedures. We are confident it is making its way through. If anyone would like a more detailed response, Mr. McGinty could provide the details of the MoU and a flavour of the recommendations, rather than go through all 163 of them.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Perhaps Mr. McGinty would provide that in writing to us after the meeting. I have such limited time.

In regard to the FAI and the experience there, and we have discussed boxing, to what extent did what happened to the FAI inform the approach to the governance issues in the Irish Athletic Boxing Association, IABA? The public looks at this and has huge interest in these sports. When governance and financial problems arise at senior level, it rocks people's confidence. How did the FAI debacle inform the approach to the boxing? Were there learnings from both?

Dr. Una May

You never go through a crisis without learning. It is a big mistake not to learn. Having said that, the situation with the FAI was significantly different from the situation within boxing. The FAI has a huge turnover. It is a commercial entity with significant issues around its financial governance. IABA's issues were not really relating to its financial governance. They were more about structural and relationship issues. That often is a problem in many governing bodies, and many of the challenges we have with governing bodies - and I appreciate what the Deputy is saying that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There are a lot of strong personalities involved.

Dr. Una May

That is exactly the challenge. As we progress into a more professional era within sport, and I do not mean professional from the point of view of funding and commercialism but professionalism in terms of the accountability that is expected, we understand that there will be challenging times when you shift from a volunteer focus. Relationships must be built between the volunteer base and newly profession staff. That is a challenge that all sports face. We introduced a significant amount of auditing. Some of that was sparked not so much by issues within the FAI but the amount of funding we were distributing around Covid-19. We have invested a significant increase in our audit function in recent years.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

At the outset, Dr. May said that Sport Ireland is not a regulatory body. Does she believe there is a role for greater regulation of the financial and governance arrangements in sports and for them to be more closely aligned with one particular oversight body?

Dr. Una May

That is a long-term question really because as we perceive it at the moment-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Sport Ireland want the job?

Dr. Una May

That is really not a matter for me as to whether there is an entity and whether I want the job.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We were talking about learnings. We have just talked about two national governing bodies with significant issues, national debates and so on. That would point to the need for far greater regulation.

Dr. Una May

It is one of the reasons Sport Ireland emphasises the fact that it is a development agency is that we see that many of the issues arising now are as a result of the changing landscape and the increasing professionalisation. I do not believe that a regulator at this point in time would resolve a lot of these issues. I refer to our experience when we invest the time, energy and support. Occasionally there are issues in smaller governing bodies that do not make the headlines. In those cases, it is important we are in a position to be able to provide them with support and capacity-building opportunities. We have an entire unit dedicated to capacity building. We have a whole programme of governance training. If we were to go down the regulatory road, we would not be in such a strong position to provide those supports. While regulation might result in organisations-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is Dr. May suggesting that it might change the nature of the relationship Sport Ireland has with some of the governing bodies?

Dr. Una May

It would. That relationship is really important. Our remit around participation is important to us. I refer to shutting down organisations. Taking boxing as an example, as the Deputy mentioned, the community reach that boxing has is one that very few other organisations would be able to boast. We would not like to see an organisation like boxing-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If there was a need for far greater regulation around financial governance issues, it may not be best aligned to the Sport Ireland's development role.

Dr. Una May

There would be a significant conflict between our role in development and a role in regulation.

I think there is a risk there.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I want to use the very last few minutes I have to turn to the Covid-19 resilience scheme. I have some points on the issues Dr. May has raised on large and small governing bodies. The three big governing bodies - the FAI, the GAA and the IRFU - received nearly 73% of the Covid-19 supports. Nearly 85 national governing bodies received the other 27%. Has Sport Ireland seen the benefit of those Covid-19 resilience supports? I am getting a lot of feedback that clubs on the ground, particularly FAI clubs, for example, did not see the trickle down. What structures were in place there to ensure that happened?

Dr. Una May

The Deputy is absolutely right. The big sports did receive a large amount of the funding. That was based on something we have encouraged over the years, which is that sports are not to depend fully on the Government. They have to generate their own funding and that involves commercial income. In the big sports, that predominately involves matters around ticketing for events etc. When all events were cancelled, there was a risk. This is an issue for us. We appreciate and acknowledge it as an issue for us to address. We appreciate the value of an NGB, whereas a club does not always necessarily always see all the work that goes on behind the scenes in an NGB to ensure that insurance is in place and that coaching structures are protected and developed. That is not necessarily seen by a club. From our point of view, it was absolutely critical that we maintained the infrastructure of sport to ensure that as we came out of the pandemic, sports still existed and there were opportunities. That fund was very important for us to ensure those structures existed beyond the pandemic.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Kelly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I welcome the witnesses. I compliment them on the work they did during Covid-19 to keep the show on the road. It was a big task and I saw it directly. I say "Well done" to them on that.

My colleague went into the area I wanted to kick off on, which is the whole regulatory aspect of this. There is a misconception of what Sport Ireland does. I think they need to dial it up as regards being a development agency and not regulator. I apologise that I have less time than my colleague. The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, and the Charities Regulator do the work on the regulatory side. Sport Ireland does the development. There is an overlap because Sport Ireland is the chief funder. There is a need, in my opinion, to change the role of Sport Ireland. I get what Dr. May said about ensuring there would not be a conflict as regards having relationships, developing sports etc. and being the "big bad regulator", for want of a better phrase. However, there is a no man's land where we have seen issues in relation to a whole range of organisations. In such circumstances, Sport Ireland is seen as a regulator when it is not one. I would like to direct this question to Mr. Foley. How can we deal with that issue into the future? I believe that Sport Ireland's role has to extend, while not necessarily being a regulator in the truest sense of the word. Given that Sport Ireland is the chief funder of many organisations, it has to expand in some way. There is huge confusion out there as regards Sport Ireland's role.

Mr. John Foley

First, I will say that I am brand new.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know, that is why I asked Mr. Foley.

Mr. John Foley

Indeed, yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It was to see if I could get a fresh view.

Mr. John Foley

First, a lot of work has been done. Having worked with a number of NGBs over the last period of time, the adoption of the governance code is a significant move forward to ensure people are compliant in the area of governance. Even though we are not a regulator, we have a role in ensuring people are compliant and have adopted the governance code. I think it is the case that 90% of the NGBs are now compliant. That will need some auditing going forward. Having experienced it first hand in another role, I know that achieving the governance code is only one part of it. You then have to ensure you sustain that. We have a role there to ensure organisations are sustaining it and are continuing to-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Foley, but time is precious. I am really asking him - it would not be fair to ask Dr. May because she is the chairperson - whether he thinks Sport Ireland's role needs to slightly change and evolve because of this gap. There is no official regulator. We obviously have the ODCE and the Charities Regulator for small organisations. Then there is Sport Ireland, which is not a regulator.

Mr. John Foley

I will say here that our role is to develop sport-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

There is that gap. From the point of view of public demand, that gap will have to be filled somehow. I do not believe this is through setting up another organisation.

Mr. John Foley

Can I just answer Deputy Kelly's question? Because I have been in the role for a very short period of time, it is something that myself, the board and the executives would have to look at over a period of time. However, I would say that even though we are a development agency, we have a lot of power in the sense that we are the funding agency. Therefore, ensuring that proper compliance is at play is something we can achieve through ensuring that the governance code is in place and that we ensure people are continuing to watch that. We make sure they continue to be compliant.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In the future, we might look at a recommendation from this committee in relation to that role, because there is that gap and I think everyone sees it now.

My second question relates to the recent FAI report in relation to future development. It is a very interesting report and I think it is quite a good report as regards setting out the lack of investment, particularly at a grassroots level, as well as dealing with other stuff that needs to be dealt with. What is the view of Sport Ireland on the report? I know that €863 million is a lot of money. In fairness, though, it is over a longer period of time. I have a real issue with the lack of facilities on the ground for many soccer and football clubs around the country. What are the representatives' initial thoughts on that?

Dr. Una May

Coming back to the earlier point of our role and our position in these situations, capital funding is a matter for the Department. Having said that, and coming back to the concept of having a functioning NGB, if we had entirely shut down the FAI, these kinds of developments would not be co-ordinated and structured in the way in which they were. As part of our development role, we encourage and support governing bodies to be ambitious, to be innovative and to work towards ambitious goals. I would say that the strategy they launched was just that. It was an ambitious strategy. We have not been asked for an opinion. We have not seen any business case behind the matters. Yet, really when it comes to sports capital, this is a matter for our colleagues in the Department. However, we encourage NGBs to be ambitious. We saw that as an ambitious and forward-thinking proposal.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know the representatives have not offered an opinion, but I am asking Dr. May her opinion now. What is her opinion on it?

Dr. Una May

Again, I cannot give an opinion without having an insight into the work that is behind it. As I said, it is ambitious. It looks good. Yet, insofar as how far that strategy has gone and the relationship with the-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

If the FAI were to write to Sport Ireland with a business case based around it, would they offer an opinion on it?

Mr. John Foley

It would not come to us. It would go to the Minister.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know that, but what about if they were to ask for Sport Ireland's opinion? They are Sport Ireland at the end of the day.

Dr. Una May

I know, and our role is not about facilities. Our role is about development. We support the development-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Sorry, no. I do not agree.

Dr. Una May

-----of the leagues.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I do not really agree with that. This is another example of confusion. My third question will go into that. That is Sport Ireland's role. Their role is development. They cannot develop anything without capital. How can Dr. May say it is not their role? Basically, some silo in the Department decides we will build this, that and the other, and then Sport Ireland says "yeah that's grand". There is a complete disconnect as regards their policy for how they want to develop these sports based on various different parameters. This may relate to women's access and kids' access etc., or different codes that feel they have not been supported enough. Sport Ireland, therefore, has to have an opinion. To be honest, if they do not have an opinion, it would be seriously worrying for me. I did not come before the committee to say this, but that answer is worrying, because Sport Ireland should have an opinion. Sport Ireland has to have an opinion. Otherwise, there will be a disconnect between a capital side, which is done in the Department, and the development side where a lot of the funding comes through. Some of it is used for managing these supports. That would make sense.

Dr. Una May

It is not for me to comment on the structure of how the Government divides its funding-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am not asking Dr. May to do that.

Dr. Una May

-----models, but what I would say is that we see ourselves as having an important role around identifying and providing support to the Government around the capital fund. It is an area where our relationship has grown in the last number of months and years. We are carrying out significant research around a facilities audit of all infrastructure across all sports across the country.

We are in the process of developing a significant bit of-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Sorry, I have only a minute. That is good news. I am delighted to hear a full audit is being done. Because of Covid, that was much-needed because we learned a lot during Covid. Sport Ireland is doing a facilities audit across sports but cannot have an opinion on capital funding from the Department and there is a disconnect there. That is another recommendation, Chairman, we might look at. It does not make sense and is a big issue for me.

A sports capital programme is also run by the Department. Does Sport Ireland ever offer an opinion on that?

Dr. Una May

We provide support around, as the Deputy referenced earlier, ensuring no funding is provided for a facility that does not cater for women or does not offer support and opportunities for people with disabilities. We provide guidance around what is required for a facility to be more accessible and attractive to female participants and then-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Down to what level? Is it ground level or just at national level?

Dr. Una May

At all levels. It is simple things like ensuring there are women’s changing rooms, that individual cubicles are available for women and-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Has Sport Ireland done an audit on every facility in each county?

Dr. Una May

We do not comment on individual projects. We provide guidance around-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

They are generic guidelines.

Dr. Una May

Generic guidelines around what should be adopted and recognised.

Deputy Alan Kelly

When it comes to the sports capital programme, does Sport Ireland ever offer an opinion outside of the generic stuff relating to disabilities, female-male and so on? Does it offer opinions to the Department saying such a sport has not got a fair crack of the whip and is down on facilities compared to another sport, etc.?

Dr. Una May

We do not provide individual scrutiny of applications.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am not talking about applications. I am talking about cycling versus boxing versus taekwondo.

Dr. Una May

As we progress with this database of information we are developing, we will be in a stronger position.

Deputy Alan Kelly

When will it be completed?

Dr. Una May

We anticipate it will be completed and launched in the autumn. We await details. We have a significant number of stakeholders.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There is a new sports capital programme coming out, Chair. Maybe a third recommendation is the sports capital process of awarding grants should not happen until this audit is done.

I thank the witnesses for their answers and apologise. I only had ten minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The witnesses are welcome. We are a sports-mad country and do not spend nearly enough on sport, which produces a great dividend in terms of the social return. I was on the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport during the FAI debacle. The lack of regulation took us by surprise. I started raising that issue at that committee regarding the FAI because it came in the aftermath of the Olympic Council ticketing scandal in Rio. Huge reputational damage was done to those sports and to the country by the Olympic Council scandal, which had an international dimension. We could not get over the fact that there was no regulation or nobody regulating what we expected would be regulated. I had hoped the remit of Sport Ireland or another organisation would fill that gap but that has not happened. There is a common denominator with much of this, and that is a strong individual who is almost above the sport. It is unfortunate we are seeing issues relating to individuals emerging in boxing as well. I will not labour the point but there is a significant gap and we are all identifying it.

A repayable grant was extended to the FAI for the stadium as part of the memorandum of agreement. Is that on course now? The annual grant provided by Sport Ireland to the organisation will from next year be deducted by €1 million per year until it is paid off. Has anything changed on that or is it still on course?

Dr. Una May

I will go back to the Deputy’s questions around the regulatory-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have very limited time.

Dr. Una May

I can focus, if the Deputy wants, on the memorandum of agreement around the Aviva.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Dr. Una May

I pride myself on being open and transparent but sometimes these are not matters for Sport Ireland and that is through an agreement between the Minister and the FAI. That is an important matter for the Minister to address. We receive guidance from the Department as to where it would like us to spend certain funds. Mostly, our funding is at our discretion as to where we spend it and the board overviews its distribution but that is an example of where we receive specific funding earmarked for a particular purpose and it is a matter for the Minister to decide if that funding is to continue. We have not yet received our budget for the coming years or paid it in 2023 but we await guidance as to whether there is a requirement to provide that funding.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The FAI has produced an ambitious plan. It is good to see that ambition and that people are returning to the terraces at the League of Ireland. Does Sport Ireland look at where their income comes from? Does that play any part in the sustainability of an organisation?

Dr. Una May

I ask my colleague, Mr. McLoughlin, to deal with that because he has been heavily involved in the process, with Colm McGinty of the FAI, and manages the funding side.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

We review on a quarterly basis its cash flow position and projected income for the year. We go through its €5.8 million budget and it has to be approved by our grants committee and board before we pay anything. We pay it on an arrears basis so it has to incur the expenditure before we pay it. That is for pay and non-pay. We review its financial statements, as we do with all our NGBs, to make sure the money is spent for the purposes intended.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does Sport Ireland monitor the Government body for horse racing?

Dr. Una May

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does it have no function in that?

Dr. Una May

We have absolutely no remit for Horse Sport Ireland.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will not dwell on that so. Regarding the sports campus master plan, Sport Ireland took out the horse sport arena. Were they consulted about that? This has been an issue in another part of that sport, relating to Horse Sport Ireland.

Dr. Una May

I am happy to address that issue because I am aware it has been in the public domain recently. The decision was made originally to develop the horse arena in the context of Horse Sport Ireland having a plan for a national high performance centre of excellence, which would have a much broader capacity to deliver for high performance horse sport. In the interim, the horse arena was established in the campus as a stopgap. It has been popular and successful, as a result of which we do not intend to make any changes to that in the short term until we find a solution. The Horse Sport Ireland situation has changed around its high performance plans.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does Sport Ireland have a view on the immigrant investor programme? It has stopped but it has not ceased and it is still being worked through. I think the FAI or some clubs have hopes in respect of investments from some of the remaining people in the programme.

Dr. Una May

That is an area we definitely consider a matter for the Government. The Government has made a decision to cease the programme and we will stand over that. We are not involved in applications and do not become part of applications on behalf of governing bodies. We believe governing bodies have the authority and autonomy to find sources of income appropriate for them but do not support anything not in line with Government policy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Dr. May talked about some of the smaller governing bodies that may not make the headlines in which there have been issues. There was an issue with Cycling Ireland but I do not know if that is one of the ones she is thinking of. Has the Department reinstated the capital funding for Cycling Ireland? What other smaller governing bodies with issues relating to governance was Dr. May referring to?

Dr. Una May

With regard to the smaller governing bodies, relatively small issues would emerge when we carry out audits. In recent times, there have been audits that relate to governance code. We have a whole range of different types of audits. Sometimes it is around something simple, for example, we have a compliance form and a self-assessment form and-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there anything where there is a question mark over funding and inappropriate-----

Dr. Una May

No. We have no concerns around any kind of financial irregularities or any kind of fraudulent activities in any way in any of the organisations.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Regarding Cycling Ireland, has that capital funding been reinstated?

Dr. Una May

That might be for the Department to answer.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

My understanding is that it is back in good standing but I will confirm that to the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Regarding the betting levy, it is a very significant amount of money. I know the witnesses might not have a function but do they have a view on the allocation of funding towards one sport? It has been in the news quite recently.

Dr. Una May

It probably sounds like I am avoiding many of the Deputy’s questions, but where there are matters of Government policy, Sport Ireland and myself as chief executive of Sport Ireland should not be providing these inputs. These are Government policy matters. We know the submission around the betting levy has been reviewed by the Minister and was previously reviewed when it was first submitted a year or two ago. It was reviewed by the Government, which took a position on it, and we support the Government's position on it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is an eye-watering amount for one sport when considering the myriad of sports. Is it something like 60 sports that Sport Ireland------

Dr. Una May

Yes. We fund upwards of 60 sports. The important thing from our point of view is there are a lot of different contexts around some of the bigger sports. One of the previous questions was around the disparity in the Covid funding. Different sports operate in different contexts. Some of them have a huge turnover, some are small, volunteer-led bodies, some have small numbers of members and some have big numbers of members. We do not make judgments based on a pure and simple cut-off point.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Dr. May said the Government dictates where some of Sport Ireland’s funding goes. What proportion and how does that typically happen?

Dr. Una May

I suppose I was using that as an example around the FAI. It does not happen all that often. The Government might make recommendations and might advise us to spend certain amounts of money in key areas, although we would still have a lot of autonomy within that. For example, last year, we were given funding of upwards of €1 million for high-performance coaching programmes. That is not in any way in conflict with what we are trying to develop as it stands and it works well for us to provide that additional funding. Those would have been issues raised with the Minister at the time as gaps. We have had ring-fenced funding around women in sport, for example. Again, no conflict with us there. We are happy to receive the money and spend it, but it is not specific. The FAI would be the main-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I refer to when an instruction comes. It is all coming out of the same budget. Is there additionality when there is an instruction from Government?

Dr. Una May

Generally, it would be an additionality. I would have to check with Mr. McLoughlin but I do not recall any occasions when we have been asked to take it from our existing funding. Although, around Covid, we took some of our reserves to support some of the Covid recovery that was happening in the sector. As a general rule, any additional funds and any specific requests, such as the money for the Aviva, comes as an additionality when it comes to our budget.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I just ask-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has gone well over time.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. I will come back in.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I wish to touch on the previous financial scandals in the FAI. I suppose it is fair to say the light-touch governance that was in place at the time allowed it to develop as it did. It was interesting to hear Sport Ireland say it did not feel the need for a regulator and there was sufficient governance and oversight in place now with the MoU. There were 163 recommendations and 90% have been implemented. This question is for Sport Ireland as well as for the Department, given that the FAI is looking for €860-odd million for to upgrade League of Ireland facilities. No one would dispute for a moment that is not required and they are in dire need for upgrading to make them fit for purpose. Given that level of money, the recommendations are just recommendations. Previously, they would have been just brushed aside. What guarantee can the witnesses give? Particularly just a couple of years after the massive bailout that the FAI got, what guarantee can Sport Ireland and the Department give that they could confidently tell us that given that amount of funding, there is something concrete there to know that every penny of that can be accounted for?

Dr. Una May

I thank the Deputy for that. I will probably defer to my two colleagues on the details around the FAI but those 163 recommendations came from a number of a different sources. There was an independent review by BDO, or was it IPA? It was IPA. There was an independent audit by KOSI on our behalf. Those recommendations come from many different external, independent viewpoints as to what is required and necessary to achieve the confidence the Deputy referred to. Although we are not a regulator, our role is monitoring adherence to those recommendations. We are confident that once those recommendations have been met, the FAI will be in a much stronger position and have much stronger governance around its financial procedures and policies. It is also important in respect of the area of regulation that the office of corporate enforcement has also been involved in managing and reviewing the affairs of the FAI. There is a role and regulator for these very high-turnover commercial entities, which is what the FAI is. Our funding to the FAI is part from the funding provided by the Government specifically to support it in the fallout of the issues that arose around the scandal that emerged. Our funding to the FAI is all clearly directed at the development of the youth field and youth sport side, and the development around children’s involvement in the sport and summer activities.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is there anything in those recommendations that will categorically prevent similar financial scandals? Is there anything Sport Ireland or the Department can see that makes them absolutely confident that the scale of what happened cannot happen again because of those recommendations? The worry is that they-----

Dr. Una May

The high level that we are-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----are recommendations.

Dr. Una May

I apologise to the Deputy. At a high level, we are confident but I will ask my colleague, Mr. McGinty, to go into some of the detail because he knows every one of the 163 recommendations.

Mr. Colm McGinty

There are 163 recommendations and we oversee that. We maintain a tracker to monitor the FAI’s implementation of those recommendations and commitments. Our area of focus is ensuring that the improvements in governance within the FAI are implemented in a sustainable way and a way they can sustain business as usual and be integral to the way the FAI is managed going forward. It has made significant progress in the past three years but there is still a journey to go. The MoU runs until the end of this year. We are working with the FAI on those areas where it still needs to imbed and implement across various items.

It requires constant effort. Governance is never done; it is an ongoing process. It is resource-intensive and requires effort. We look at the MoU and some of the safeguards built within that. The appointment of independent directors was significant and an absolutely fundamental control. The FAI went through an organisational restructure underpinned by a complete constitutional reform. A new board put in place and there are six independent directors there at the moment. There is a audit and risk committee in place. There is much more enhanced internal control environment in the FAI.

The adoption of the electoral code was interesting. It governed how the FAI conduct its elections at general meetings. It now has put in place an integrity assessment to ensure that all candidates’ membership for a board have to go through an independent verification and integrity assessment. Those are all positive developments. The FAI and any organisation that we fund and any area of governance requires constant work and effort.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could we get sight of those, please? Could Mr. McGinty forward on those recommendations?

Mr. Colm McGinty

Sure, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I also want to touch on the Women's League of Ireland. The World Cup they have qualified for is less than six weeks away, and there are reports that their application for funding was rejected. Can we get clarity around that? We had the Women's League of Ireland players in the AV room recently, and they spoke about their commitment to the sport, their love of it, their commitment to the communities, and their sense of pride in representing their communities and their country. They also spoke about the dire inequality that is there, and the lack of funding and supports. I am sure it was an absolute kick in the teeth for them to be told that the application for funding was rejected. The reports were that they were absolutely stunned, given the inequality that has been glaringly obvious for so long. Can Sport Ireland give us some information on that please?

Dr. Una May

I thank Deputy Munster for that question, because it gives me the opportunity to explain to everybody in the room, and anybody else who is listening, that this is factually incorrect. We have asked the FAI to follow up and provide us with some information as to how that information made it into the public domain. We have not rejected the application. It is under review in the context of a significant number of other initiatives that the FAI is seeking around women in sport. We are working very closely with our colleagues in the Department around a potential increase in funding for women in sport. We have already earmarked a certain amount of funding around women in sport, with specific attention to the FAI. We have a significant number of different asks from the FAI, which has resulted in us having to take some time to consider the full range of asks. It has approached the Department with some requests. It approached us with certain requests. It is open, and has applied for other programmes around the Women in Sport funding initiatives.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In particular to this tranche of funding, it is the cash-strapped clubs that need it, and it is four and a half weeks away. Can Dr. May express, with any confidence, that they will get that funding in time?

Dr. Una May

We have not rejected the application. The money around the Women's National League is not a matter for the women's national team right now. We have been supporting the development and the ongoing support provided to the women's national team in a different way, but support for the Women's National League is a different request. It is a request for funding on a long-term basis in a growing and evolving structure around investing up front, and slowly growing the number of clubs that could benefit from it, and how that benefit was received. It is a complex ask. We have not rejected it, because our intention is that we would be very open to finding new ways of supporting the league.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is Sport Ireland still awaiting the information from the FAI?

Dr. Una May

We are, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. As soon as Sport Ireland gets it in, it can go through it and make sure all the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted.

Dr. Una May

We will be looking to see, because as I said, it was factually incorrect. We have not rejected that application, and we intend to take it into consideration in the broader conversations around growth. The FAI has presented the Department with a plan around the growth of the women's sport, and all elements-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does Dr. May recognise the deficit, if one likes, and the inequality that has existed, and the need to address that?

Dr. Una May

I think it is very important that we address all of these inequalities, and these are long-term, historic inequalities. It is important that we find ways to resolve these, and ways to support the growth and development of women in sport across all sports and activities.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I want to ask about the new building, the Long Barn. Am I correct in saying that the downstairs is for the Olympic Federation of Ireland, and then the upstairs is a lounge for rest and recuperation? Is this in advance of the Olympic Games in Paris in 2024?

Dr. Una May

To explain and clarify, yes. The ground floor is an office space for the Olympic Federation of Ireland in advance of the development of our plans around a joint office venue, but it is also very important for the athletes. We are enthusiastically encouraging other countries, as well as the Irish teams, to use the campus in advance of Paris, given the time zone we are in and the relatively similar climate - and I say relatively at the moment, as it as a good example - to that of the Continent. We are encouraging other countries, and we have some commitments from a number of other teams to come and train on the campus. In the absence of having accommodation on the campus, athletes would have to go back to their hotel in the middle of the day, if they are training twice a day, so they intend-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

The Olympic Federation of Ireland sold its Olympic House in Howth in 2021. Did the money it got from the sale of that go into this project?

Dr. Una May

I suppose that is a matter for the Olympic Federation of Ireland, but it was in a position where there was, as Deputy Murphy already alluded to, a significant crisis in the Olympic Federation of Ireland, and there were costs incurred as a result of that. The building that has been produced, the Long Barn, is a development supported by the Government. It will have future uses once the office buildings are completed and-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the answer to that question that it did not give any funding towards it from the sale?

Dr. Una May

Not towards the construction of it. It will pay rent and maintenance in the same way as all tenants on the campus do.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How much did the first phase cost?

Dr. Una May

Is the Deputy referring to the Long Barn building?

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes.

Dr. Una May

I would have to get that information for the Deputy separately.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank Dr. May for her presentation this morning. A lot of discussion has centred around governance, and Dr. May has outlined that there is tension between that development role and the governance role. I think it only makes sense for the person who is paying over the money to have a responsibility in terms of oversight on how that money is spent.

I will return, maybe, to some of those governance questions, but first I wanted to ask about Sport Ireland's own costs incurred on consultancy. We have a graph here before us, and there is a baseline expenditure of just under €1 million for a number of years, and then through 2020 it doubles to €2 million. In 2021, it is €4.4 million. I wanted to ask where that graph is ending up in 2022 and 2023, and for some insight as to why we needed to quadruple that expenditure. It might be small beans in the context of the overall budget, but it seems like a significant increase.

Dr. Una May

I am happy to share with the Deputy a little bit of an insight into the costs that were incurred, and I will refer to my colleague, Mr. Jason McLoughlin, around the future trajectory of that pathway, and where we are going. At the time of our financial statements in 2021, we were coming out of the Covid-19 pandemic. We had invested significantly in a number of campaigns that would have cost us quite a bit of money around encouraging and supporting people and giving them the confidence to return to sport. We were also part of the Government's Keep Well initiative during the pandemic, where we developed resources for people to exercise at home. We provided all kinds of resources, and invested in programmes for a phone helpline to enable older people to call for support and advice around taking part in physical activity.

In addition to all the campaign work we did around encouraging people to return to sport, which was a very important part of our role at that time, we were also at that stage building the development of the campus master plan and we would have incurred significant costs around the early stages of the design and development of the work that went behind the development of the master plan.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

To clarify, it is broken into different categories: technical advice, other expenditure, and financial and actuarial advice. Would this be falling into the technical advice category? That is where we saw the greatest expansion in expenditure.

Dr. Una May

It would, and if the Deputy would like more detail, I am very happy, and I am sure Mr. McLoughlin would be happy, to share with him some of the detail around it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Please.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

I thank the Deputy. The technical advice is directly linked to the capital activity on the campus. The capital activity went from about €2.2 million in 2020 up to about €8 million in 2021. That is for consultancy costs, and for pushing business plans, planning and design. The other big one there was other expenditure, and that was for the campaigns we ran, including the Let's Get Back campaign, which cost €723,000 in 2021. We also had the community sports hubs campaign for €300,000.

Regarding trajectory and moving forward, the technical advice area would increase as the capital activity is increasing on the campus. On the other expenditure lying under the consultancy heading, we would expect this to come back in line, because even in 2020 we had the Keep Well campaign, all directly linked to Covid-19. We would expect the expenditure under the other headings to come back down, but under the technical advice heading, we expect it to increase based on the increased capital activity on the campus.

This is relatively straightforward question in relation to the Covid-19 resilience scheme, which was a significant component of Sport Ireland's budget in 2020 and 2021. It was €89 million in 2020 and €65 million in 2021. We all understand the reasons it was put in place. I understand the reasoning behind the three main governing bodies receiving the bulk of the money. Are we going to see that taper off completely and will the organisations be in a position to survive without the additional funding as we come out of the Covid period?

Dr. Una May

Again, I will invite Mr. McLoughlin to add to this but primarily, the most important part of the Covid funding was about addressing losses made by the governing bodies in lost memberships and lost event income. There were a number of categories of the Covid funding and helping with losses was a very important part of that. We also provided them with additional support to develop initiatives that would encourage people to return to sport. Many of those initiatives continue to be funded through other sources of funding, be it our core funding, dormant account funding or a number of other areas of support. At the time, we were very clear to the governing bodies that these were not going to be long-standing funds. They were not to recruit people and there were not to be long-standing commitments to people's jobs or anything like that involved in the funds we were providing. The primary use of the funding was about making up for loss. Mr. McLoughlin might like to add to that.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

It was €88.5 million in 2020. We increased the €65 million given to us by the Department in 2021 by €8 million because we had a contingency based on the fact that we did not know the funding we were going to get for Covid going into 2021. It has tapered down to €15 million in 2022. We have not provided anything in 2023, so it is effectively finished.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

They are back on their feet?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is good news. I wanted to return to Cycling Ireland which I know was briefly dealt with. An internal audit was commissioned by Sport Ireland around some of the issues of the false comparative quotations. Did the audit produce recommendations? If it did, where do we stand in relation to those recommendations?

Dr. Una May

Yes, the report did produce recommendations. They were all addressed and have all been fully complied with. A lot of change has happened within Cycling Ireland. A new CEO started this week and a new chair has been appointed. We have supported it in putting independent members on its board and it implemented all the recommendations. Regarding the implementation of the governance code, it awaited a full adoption of all the recommendations before it committed itself to being fully compliant with the governance code. It is now deemed to be fully compliant. We are quite comfortable with the direction of travel there.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This may be slightly tangential. Women in sport is a large part of Dr. May's role as well. Did any of those recommendations deal with the women in sport aspect as it relates to Cycling Ireland? I know for example, that there is quite a disparity in funding between the men's race and Rás na mBan. Did any of the recommendations in the report address that disparity?

Dr. Una May

I will probably have to ask Mr. McGinty for the details but my recollection is that it did not make reference to that. However, we have provided it with additional funding for Rás na mBan. It has been very important for us to ensure that if it did ask for funding for the Rás Tailteann, we also ensured it received funding for Rás na mBan. We emphasised the importance of supporting Rás na mBan.

Mr. Colm McGinty

This is from recollection but we can find out and get a note on the detail for the Deputy. They related to governance and financial control issues around the effectiveness of the board, about its executive relations and the general financial control environment. There were some issues regarding the processes for grant applications etc. I do not recall anything specifically on the issue of women in sport.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This question is for Mr. Ó Lionáin. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked about capital funding to Cycling Ireland. Mr. Ó Lionáin said that he thinks the organisation is back in good standing. I think we would prefer a more detailed response, particularly given the investment in the national velodrome.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I am happy to confirm that Cycling Ireland is back in full eligibility for capital grants, when the next round of sports capital funding is opened. The organisation is back in good stead.

Dr. Una May

We are aware that they have also introduced another control mechanism around the grant application process. All their grant applications, before they are sent to the recipient of the application, be that the Department or ourselves, are now reviewed by an external professional entity. This is a measure that they have introduced themselves.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I want to turn briefly to Horse Sport Ireland. Again, we are into governance and funding issues here. I do not want to say the picture is murkier because of the connotations but it is more difficult, in that Sport Ireland is not the sole provider of funds to Horse Sport Ireland. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is involved as well. Has Dr. May seen the report by Indecon International that was commissioned by the Department Agriculture, Food and the Marine?

Dr. Una May

Our high performance unit is the main area that we provide funding in and it is one of the reasons Horse Sport Ireland is very important to us. They would have had sight of that and we have been very closely monitoring the situation. As the Deputy mentioned, Horse Sport Ireland is a unique entity, in that it is really an entity of the Department of Agriculture but we have a significant interest in the sport element of it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How would Dr. May characterise it, because the arrangement is unique? Has Dr. May had adequate access to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Has she had the opportunity to sit down with them and discuss the findings of the report by Indecon International and the other governance issues that apply to Horse Sport Ireland? Does Dr. May have adequate access in that regard?

Dr. Una May

Yes, Deputy. I am very happy that we have adequate access. We have been involved in various working groups and oversight groups. We are involved at all stages of the process. This is a very high performing sport in the high performance arena, so it is a very important sport for us. We monitor closely the work that is happening. The issues that arose were almost all outside of our remit. There were issues around the stud books, for example. This is really not a matter for Sport Ireland.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses. I apologise if I go over any questions that have been asked already. I was attending another committee. The Covid resilience fund was exceptionally important at the time. Sport Ireland responded extremely well to the various organisations that required funding. Not necessarily historically for 2021, but more generally, Sport Ireland has a requirement to support women in sport and those from disadvantaged or deprived backgrounds. I know a number of the grants are tailored to cater to those categories. What is Sport Ireland doing to specifically encourage those categories?

Dr. Una May

I am grateful to Deputy Devlin for the question. Sometimes I come here wanting to talk about the great work we are doing and I do not always get the opportunity to do so. These are areas where we feel very strongly that we are actually performing at a very high level in providing supports. We have a women in sport policy which identified four key pillars that required attention to ensure that we had more women participating in sport and more women in leadership positions. We have done a lot of work on leadership programmes and development and supports for young leaders. We give encouragement to try to ensure that we have a pathway and as that gender balance is being addressed, that there is a future pool of individuals who will be able to serve and provide the support to the governing bodies from the women in sports side.

We are also interested in the area of officiating and refereeing and in ensuring that women who have reached the end of their sporting career may choose to give back to sport as a volunteer or a paid official. We want to ensure that through coaching and officiating, there are opportunities and pathways for those women, with women-specific initiatives. We have done a huge amount of work. We have also had a significant increase in recent years. We had a fund of €2 million that we have invested specifically into the issue of women in sport. I am very proud of the work we are doing for women in sport. We have been very proactive and I believe we have made a difference. We are currently reviewing the women in sport policy, which is a relatively short turnaround to be reviewing a policy like that. We are doing so because we believe that the landscape has changed significantly in recent years so would like to think that we have played a part in that.

Regarding disadvantaged communities, we have been very proud recipients of dormant account funding and that has increased significantly over the years.

We believe it has increased because of the success of the programmes that we have initiated. We have very targeted programmes. Our local sports partnerships were established specifically to target various groups. Without being in any way derogatory, I will refer to them as being more difficult-to-reach groups; be they people in disadvantaged communities or minority communities. We do a lot of work in that area.

In addition to that, we have been successful in acquiring new funding from Europe, which is very unusual. We were invited to a European forum to discuss the fact that we were able to tap into a non-sports fund within Europe, namely, the innovation stream of the European Social Fund, and how we can use that. The programme is specifically targeted at disadvantaged communities. As part of that we are going to be investing in a specific development officer targeting disadvantaged communities in every local sports partnership in the country. We are just starting out on the road now. We are piloting it within six local sports partnerships.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What six local sports partnerships is Sport Ireland trialling that in?

Dr. Una May

I would have to come back to Deputy Devlin with the detail.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is fine. If I could just go back to women in sport, some of the organisations have responded exceptionally well. Some of them were organically on that trajectory themselves. In the club my own children are involved in it is wonderful to see the girls coming through the various levels. In some cases, the girls teams are bigger than the boys teams, which is wonderful to see. Dr. May rightly points out that it is really essential that women are included in the coaching and management structure all the way through, so there is a pathway.

In terms of the funding for disadvantaged and minority communities, I have seen there is more weighting now in grants to ensure that organisations are trying to target and not forget about those areas or sections of society that might, unintentionally, be forgotten about.

I commend Sport Ireland on the work it is doing. The local sports partnerships are a wonderful mechanism because they are very close to the organisations operating within each of the local authorities.

My final point relates to Sport Ireland's facilities, such as the national sports campus and others. I note from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that a surplus of €29 million was reported. Overall, are the facilities being utilised to the maximum? Are they fully utilised? Infrastructure needs constant investment. Is there a pipeline of investment? I know it is a separate entity, but is there a strong pipeline to ensure there is renovation, repair and maintenance, and potentially expansion of those facilities ongoing?

Dr. Una May

I thank Deputy Devlin for another opportunity to talk about something that I am very proud of, namely, our campus. I will offer Mr. Murray the opportunity to come in with a bit more detail. The campus is operating at a very high level. We have returned since the pandemic and our numbers are increasing very significantly. We have 1,000 children a week participating in our gymnastics academies and significantly more than that in swimming. Mr. Murray can give the figures. We have 1 million visitors a year to the National Aquatic Centre. As the campus is growing, we have activities across the board. Last weekend we had the national junior archery team training. We have the IRFU high performance centre, which is absolutely full gas for the entirety of the season. We have an awful lot of activity on the campus. We are moving into the area of supporting national governing bodies, NGBs, with their bids for hosting international events, which is really important. I mentioned earlier about the international dimension of the role of a lot of our governing bodies. It is important for them to be able to position themselves as being of a standard and status high enough to be successful in bidding for international events. This year we host the European under-23 swimming championship on the campus. We are also hosting European hockey qualifiers. For the second year in a row, we will be hosting a world cup in cyclocross. We have a target each year. Next year we will be targeting an international gymnastics event. Each year we target three to four major international events on the campus. That is very important for national governing bodies and the sector in which they operate, which is the international sector.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is apart from the other international activities that we also support.

Dr. Una May

Of course. I am sorry. I will give Mr. Murray a chance to talk. One of the things that we are very proud of at the campus - we believe we are quite unique in the world - is that not only are we a high performance campus, but we have a very strong emphasis on community use. It is one of our core values that the campus is open for community use. We have small children training in the same venue at the same time potentially as a world champion. That is something we are very proud of and that we really promote. When we have our summer camps we work very closely with the Olympic Federation of Ireland and the children get a chance to meet an Olympian at the end of their summer camp. The collaboration between high performance and participation is very important. I am sorry. I should let Mr. Murray add some details. As members might guess, I am quite proud of the campus.

Mr. Michael Murray

The other piece to add is the recreational use. We have a number of 3X3 basketball courts and 3-a-side football pitches to which members of the public have free access. Some 160,000 members of the public come into the waterpark in the aquatic centre every year. The gym and aquatic centre have 3,500 members, which is now at capacity. Dr. May mentioned the summer camps. We will have just under 4,000 children this year attending summer camps over eight weeks, including inclusive camps. Over the past six weeks – I think this week is the last week – more than 6,000 children have attended the campus as part of their school tour.

The last piece, which Dr. May touched on, is that just under 4,000 children attend academies every week, including swimming, gymnastics, diving, athletics and badminton. It is getting quite-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. Murray. Is the funding available in terms of the organisation's ability to invest and expand and to ensure the ongoing maintenance of the facility?

Mr. Michael Murray

We have a full-time maintenance team and we are looking to supplement that at the moment with some external support. We have very good plans for the ongoing maintenance of all the facilities on the campus.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Gabhaim buíochas.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going to take a short break of ten minutes sharp.

Sitting suspended at 10.57 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Brady.

Deputy John Brady

I welcome Dr. May and all her colleagues. This is an area that interests me because I see its real benefits for people in terms of mental health. We know the struggles that young people have with their mental health. A different report showed that one in five young people struggle with their mental health. I see sport as key. It is not a panacea but it certainly helps young people. I agree with what was said about this being an exciting time for us as regards sport. Boxing, rugby and so on were mentioned. When we see what is going on in athletics, with records being broken left, right and centre, it is an exciting time. We also see how popular running has become. There are now park runs right across the State, where ordinary people are out every Saturday participating in them. The Dublin marathon has become so popular it is nearly as difficult to get a place in it as it is to win the lottery. It is up there with all the major marathons around the world as regards people looking to participate in it.

It is also an exciting time in boxing. I will unashamedly name one of my cousins, Adam Sinnott, who recently won a senior boxing title to add to his Leinster title. It is certainly a very exciting time there. Another constituent of mine, Daina Moorehouse, has been selected to represent Ireland in the European Games, which is seen as a key Olympic qualifier. These are very exciting times. However, there are challenges in all of that. I look at Katie Taylor, her phenomenal career, and the failures at different levels to put the structures in place for communities and clubs such as her's before she won an Olympic gold medal. When she was a world champion, she was still training in the kitchen in her home. It was only when she won an Olympic gold medal in London that Departments started to put funding and facilities in place for Katie and Bray Boxing Club. There are still challenges. Only this week, in Bray, County Wicklow, another boxing club unfortunately had to close its doors on a temporary basis because of a lack of facilities for boxers. Hopefully, things have moved on and that is being addressed. However, there are still key challenges and I will touch on them.

The sports partnerships, which do phenomenal work in counties the length and breadth of the State, were mentioned. I want to talk about that interconnection between local authorities and Sport Ireland. Up until quite recently, the approach taken by local authorities was to put a football pitch in place and that was seen as supplying all the sporting facilities needed. The local authorities do not look at minority sports. Will the representatives touch on the interconnection between Sport Ireland in the first instance, in addition to local authorities and sports partnerships, in the context of identifying the needs, particularly of young people, in counties and putting grassroots facilities in place?

Dr. Una May

I thank the Deputy. I wish him luck with the support he will give to various people, particularly in the upcoming European Games, which will be a very important Olympics qualifier for our boxers. They have been through a very difficult time with the situation internationally so I hope they will do well. We put a high value on boxing because, as the Deputy said, of the value it can bring and add, in particular its ability to reach certain groups. Boxing generally operates in communities where other sports might not be successful because it has a specific reach into those communities, which is very important for us. We have been in discussion with the Department regarding the development of a new plan as to how we would provide additional supports. We very recently met with one of the local authorities specifically with regard to trying to convince it to provide additional support to boxing, especially in that area.

On the broader question around our relationship with local authorities, we see that as a very important relationship going forward. Twenty of our local sports partnerships are based within local authorities. That gives them a very strong footing within local authority areas. The others are limited companies but they still have very close links. One of the most important links for any local sports partnership is that with its local authority. The Minister is due to meet soon with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage around the work and collaboration with local authorities. The national sports policy has a specific remit and has passed that remit to local authorities, but we are providing a great deal of support in the context of the development of local sports plans, which are intended to bring together all the areas that involve development of any sport and how that operates within the context of a local authority. It might be about the contribution that any particular sport or any piece of infrastructure makes to supporting a particular community. It might be about the link, and this is why it is in the hands of local authorities and not ourselves, into the local economy or local tourism. Sport contributes to a range of different areas. The work with local authorities allows us to capitalise and maximise on that local value.

We are also in the process of carrying out a significant project around collecting information on recreation amenities throughout the entire country. Local authorities are key partners in providing us with that information. We are working with their geographic information system, GIS, departments to provide us with very detailed information. We do not just hope but anticipate that they will use that information. It is being established in a very complex database of information where maps can overlay with population, planning and zoning information, and with distribution of other facilities. It will be a very important asset when it comes to the development, maintenance and planning of local infrastructure for sport. That goes for everything from parks through to-----

Deputy John Brady

In my constituency, for example, in Bray, there are plans to develop a sports campus, to look at hockey, athletics, soccer and all those things, and to put in place facilities in west Wicklow. It is the only municipal district without a swimming pool. There are plans looking at developing a swimming pool, and a sports campus around it, but the stumbling block all the time is a lack of capital funding. What role does Sport Ireland have in that? What funding is available? Going through all the processes Dr. May talked about, we absolutely need all the statistics and all those reports, but they are only as good as the funding that comes through afterward. As I said, there have been plans for a sports campus in north Wicklow for the past five years. It has hit a brick wall. They are working on a swimming pool for west Wicklow, and different applications have been put in for it, but it has again hit a brick wall. Funding is needed to advance those critical sporting projects in constituencies. Wicklow is only one example. Its situation is replicated right across the State.

Dr. Una May

Yes. It is not really up to me to determine how local authorities distribute their funding, but they invest very significantly. We have done a review of all the local authorities and their investment in the areas of sport and recreation. As I said, that covers everything from the development of parks - for young children, playgrounds are physical activity - and recreation through to their overall infrastructure for sport. It is not for me to determine where they spend it, but I appreciate that there are significant differences between local authorities depending on their size, population and abilities.

In conjunction with the Government, which has been funding it, Swim Ireland has developed facilities. West Wicklow was one of the recipients of a pop-up pool recently. It is an initiative that allows us to - pardon the pun - dip our toe in the water to see what the demand and need is, and fill some of the gaps around capacity for kids to have access to somewhere to learn to swim and that sort of thing. It is very important. The Department is working on a national swimming strategy and it may have some views on that side of it.

Deputy John Brady

That is super. If anyone were to analyse the usage and statistics for that pop-up pool, they would prove that the need and demand is there.

There are plenty of reports showing that physical inactivity is estimated to cost the Irish taxpayer more than €1.5 billion. Getting young people in particular to participate in sports is critical. What measures are in place to monitor sports participation? Younger kids get involved, and I have seen that as they reach their teenage years there is a drop-off. Is there a monitoring procedure in place?

Dr. Una May

There is. I do not know if I am being given a special pass today, but it gives me another opportunity to discuss a project we are proud of. We facilitate the Irish Sports Monitor, which is a general household telephone survey. We survey about 8,500 people per year and ask them about their trends in physical activity. At greater intervals we also carry out a survey into children's physical activity. Both of these surveys are completed for the past year. We intend to publish them in the near future. The Deputy's observation about teenagers is important because this is something we have seen for many years. We are not waiting for this year's figures to tell us there is a significant drop-off. As we look at future demographics in Ireland, our teenage population is going to grow. Young people who are now teenagers will reach a critical age over the course of the coming ten years, which will influence their future participation. We have a golden opportunity now to tackle the issue of teenage drop-out. The Minister's new remit, which includes physical education, allows a new opportunity to reach into the education system. We see differences between types of schools. All-girls secondary schools see a significant drop out rate. Almost all of our primary school children are involved in some sport and physical activity. More than 90% of our children are involved in some activity at primary level. However, in particular when girls go to all-girls secondary school we see a specific drop-off, which is greater than in other areas. We have done a lot of work in the area of teenage drop-out among girls in particular, but a lot of what we found in our research applies across the board to girls and boys. We have identified the barriers and challenges. One of the important areas to mention is that a lot of teenagers have identified the fact that they label themselves as non-sporty because they never fully embraced the opportunities given to them at a younger level. The major team sports were maybe not for them. One of the areas we are keen to develop and grow is the promotion of new and diverse opportunities. It is important to support all of the governing bodies right down to niche sports like archery and tug of war - some of the smaller sports that are not necessarily the mainstream sports offered in schools. It is important that we support, promote and encourage people to recognise the diverse opportunities that are out there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I wish everybody a good morning. I thank Dr. May for her contribution so far. It is quite enlightening. I would be very interested to know the science and research behind the drop-off in all-girls schools, just to see if there is anything we can do as representatives. I visit a lot of all-girls schools in my capacity as a politician to encourage and enlighten them about politics. I would be in interested to have a chat about that.

Dr. May said earlier that while Sport Ireland does not develop policy, it advises on inclusivity as it relates to sports capital funding. Sport Ireland has a role to play in advising on inclusivity with regard to disability and so on. To what extent is that done? I will explain why, rather than go back. I visit the sports complexes, which are applying for grants. The grounds outside are never taken into account in terms of putting in the roadway or filling potholes. You can get to the infrastructure inside the building in a wheelchair. When you get inside it is perfectly accessible. However, the pathway to it is not. I have seen it. Clubs are not able to raise funds at this point, because a lot of the time people are pretty much strapped to even pay for the petrol to get there. I ask Dr. May to take that on board. Maybe it has been considered, but I think we need a little more input from the sports capital fund. This is such an important area. I see sport in rural Ireland as virtually mental health therapy. Dr. May might mention that and ask them to be cognisant of it. I do not know if she can do that or if she has that kind of remit, but I think it is important.

Dr. Una May

I thank Deputy Murphy. While we do not have a remit, this is where our relationship with local authorities is important. We have been part of and do quite a lot of work with town centre first and stakeholder groups.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about when you enter the gate of a facility and you are usually at a green field with just a gravel path, or you can drive in. However, there are generally a lot of potholes, some of which are quite deep. There is no actual pathway for someone coming via the road in a wheelchair. From the inside gate of the facility it would not be local authority governance, but that of the club itself, which is denied funding for that part of the facility through the sports capital fund. That is what I mean.

Dr. Una May

I take that recommendation on board. The Department officials might like to make an input on this but-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Please.

Dr. Una May

-----from our point of view, we would be happy to support and encourage that. We have developed accessibility guidelines for people with disabilities, in particular in the outdoors. The Deputy has also mentioned that gravel is not an easy surface for a wheelchair. However, it is probably more a matter for the Department.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I may be completely wrong, but anywhere I have visited that is their issue.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Deputy. For context, it is highly likely that a new round of the programme will open soon. We have completed a review of the outgoing round and a report has been published on the Department website. Among the things highlighted is an emphasis on investment in communities of disadvantage and sharing facilities. We are also suggesting there should be an increase and stronger focus on grants that will benefit people with disabilities and on areas of rapid population growth. On the specific question of the issues the Deputy described within the grounds, they can be accommodated within a sports capital grant. It is often a question of the club's priorities in terms of sport infrastructure or the walking area. There is a conversation to be had, however, about the linkage between local authorities and the sports system, and how that can be improved.

Deputy Verona Murphy

To be honest, I understand that. I think is where we cater for the many rather than the few. I am worried about that, because their priorities always lie with the many. There may be two people who are incapacitated in some shape or form in terms of mobility, who are not being included. In essence it is because of that attitude. I am not saying it is wrong; it is just one area where we need to think about how we can bring both together. I am prepared to work on that. As Mr. Ó Lionáin mentioned, going forward I am concerned about the criteria that will be set down for what we determine a disadvantaged area. I live in a quite normal part of rural Ireland. By no means would I consider it to be disadvantaged.

An Cathaoirleach

It is off the gold coast.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The gold coast is Waterford, but I pay no mind to the Chair, he is from Portlaoise.

An Cathaoirleach

Wexford has a gold coast.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We like to swim in the open sea. There is no substitute for that. The thing is that we actually operate a food bank in the village where I am from. I collect the food for it, we assist 45 families and we cannot keep up. That is a new phenomenon, particularly for where I am from. Do not get me wrong, I am glad to assist in it. In terms of governance it is run by the family resource centre. I have lots to say it is a disadvantaged area but I need to see what the criteria are. We have hundreds of foreign nationals, either Ukrainian or international applicants, for whom we are not catering in clubs because we cannot. There are too many, and it is a rural area. We need to look and concentrate at how we bring them together through sport, and maybe their sports as opposed to our sports. Maybe we should have a look at what diversity there is from their national perspective. They will be here for quite a while. I am fairly sure there is no hurling in Ukraine. It might go back there. At this point, rather than looking to integrate them into our cultural sports, they might be given facilities to look at what they can do themselves, especially in densely-populated areas like south County Wexford and indeed the whole county.

That is another issue. We have a huge deficit in facilities that would accommodate the likes of taekwondo or any of the other sports that need indoor facilities. There is nowhere available in Wexford or in New Ross. There are several foreign national clubs whose members are from the foreign national community who have come here to work. For example, we have 60 children in New Ross who have nowhere to practice their taekwondo. I have gone to the council a number of times. We need to look at how we are facilitating community facilities that really are for the community. The biggest problem I have is that most facilities that we could avail of are taken up by diet clubs. I hate to say it but on seven nights of the week people can go to Weightwatchers or Slimming World but we cannot accommodate 60 children. That is a blot on all our copy books. The council should do more. There is one facility in the area but it is a derelict building. It should have been taken up years ago and been renovated to keep children off the streets and away from drugs. It is there and it would be a worthwhile investment. That would represent value for money in terms of what we are looking at today. I am very interested in the EU grant that Dr. May talked about for something like that because New Ross and Enniscorthy, the main town centres in south County Wexford, have a huge migrant population that we need to integrate. I speak on the basis of diversity.

The last thing I want to mention is the elephant in the room. Every sporting club and every sport is wondering about transgender policy. We cannot ignore it and I would like to know what Sport Ireland's input into such policy would be, in terms of either advising the Department or sporting organisations. The Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA, had an issue in April where one of the Cavan clubs decided that it would not turn up. It is time we addressed this in some shape or form, rather than letting it fester and upsetting everybody. Does Dr. May have a role in that regard?

Dr. Una May

Before I address the transgender issue, I will speak about our new communities. The Deputy is very much on the ball when it comes to martial arts. They are a key area for us because they do reach a lot of audiences and targets. These are the kinds of initiatives that we hope would be supported through the local sports plans which would identify those weaknesses and gaps. When it comes to capital funding, no one club is going to own the facility. Rather, clubs are going to rent the facility so we would be very supportive of any developments around that. We identify martial arts as being an area where there is room for growth. In respect of new communities, the Deputy mentioned Ukrainians in particular and we have worked very closely with the Volleyball Association of Ireland, which now has more non-Irish than Irish members because it is a very popular sport. We are working closely with the association to ensure that opportunities to participate are made available to people, where possible. As the Deputy said, some of the clubs are full, which makes it difficult, but we are providing guidance and support where we can.

The issue of transgender participation in sport is a very complex area. We have not taken a stance on it but there is a reason for that. It is a very rapidly evolving area and what we are seeing is international federations such as the International Olympic Committee, IOC, adopting a position on it and then a year or two later having to revise that position. We do not want to jump in and make recommendations. We are in the process of developing guidance. That has been a difficult process because initially we could not find anyone who was willing to tender for the service. Now have a consultant who is currently working on the development of guidance around transgender inclusion in sport. We are in the latter stages of the consultation now. We have consulted with communities, the sector and the public. We have also specifically consulted with individual advocacy groups to get their input on how we develop the guidance. Our intention is not to declare a policy around who can or cannot participate in sport but to provide guidance to the sector to help it to identify the measures or the course it needs to take, in consultation with its own community. Every sport is different. In some cases, there are legitimate health and safety concerns while in other sports, men and women participate on an equal footing and there is no issue whatsoever. We will not take a position but we will provide guidance. We are working very intensively on that and we expect the guidance to be produced in the fourth quarter of this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is really important because this is a very emotive subject. Some people hold very strong opinions and there are some who do not even understand it. I am thinking of parents on the sidelines, coaches and so on. They are involved in a voluntary capacity but are running into all of these issues.

Regarding taekwondo and martial arts more generally in Wexford, these activities are particularly suited to those who are on the autism spectrum. They are very disciplined sports and they seem to be something that those with autism can evolve in. I have been there and watched them and it is fantastic. These are really disciplined sports but we have not expanded them enough and explored how they can be accessed by all. I would really appreciate it if Dr. May would elaborate on that. I also ask her to furnish us with a copy of the Sport Ireland report on schoolgirls, all-girl schools and the drop-out rate.

Finally, on the criteria that will be used for providing the grant for disadvantaged areas, I ask her to take what I have said into account. Everyone is going to tell her that they are operating a food cloud in a small village but the south New Ross area of County Wexford has a population of between 5,000 and 10,000. There is probably room for more but I ask her to consider that.

An Cathaoirleach

Just to follow on from what Deputy Murphy said on disadvantage, an index or measurement is available. It used to be based on what was known as Gamma statistics back in the 1990s. There is a new name for it now but it eludes me. There can be areas that look quite prosperous but within them, there can be pockets of serious disadvantage. We see that in farming too and in the context of funding allocations, I would make the point that there are minorities within areas that would appear to be very prosperous on a national scale.

I am not very familiar with the Abbotstown facility but have been trying to learn more about it over the past couple of days. A big stadium project was planned for the site, which was christened the Bertie Bowl at one stage. That did not happen, as far as I know. That has not been put in place. There are courtyard offices on the site, which I understand are the offices of Sport Ireland. I am seeking "Yes" or "No" answers to get a clear picture of what is on the campus. There is a large site with some buildings on it. Is Sport Ireland in charge of the whole campus?

Dr. Una May

Yes and actually-----

An Cathaoirleach

Let us stick to "Yes" or "No" answers. Sport Ireland is using offices on the site but it also administers and has governance of the site. Is that correct?

Dr. Una May

Yes. We are responsible for the overall development and implementation of the master plan. It is a very large, 500-acre site and we have different types of usages and lots of different tenants. We have NGBs in offices, we have sporting infrastructure and we have public infrastructure. We have a full range but we are responsible for the ongoing development of the campus.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it the case that Sport Ireland's own headquarters are finished now?

Dr. Una May

This is a 15- to 20-year project. We are currently proposing the development of significant office infrastructure that will house all of the NGBs of sport, including ourselves, the Olympic Federation and others. Everybody would be in the one office building, which would allow for greater collaboration and working together. We are also looking to develop an innovation hub within those buildings. We are currently based in offices in the courtyard but the intention is that we would move to these new offices.

An Cathaoirleach

On the stadium, and this may be a question for the Department, is the plan still to push ahead with a Bertie Bowl or a Leo Bowl? Is there still talk of that? Maybe someone from the Department could answer that question.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The simplest answer to that is to take a quick look at the campus's master plan. I am sure Dr. May and other colleagues would love to have the committee members out there to show it to them. To answer your specific question, the next key priority for the Department and the State in rolling out the mater plan is a velodrome, an indoor cycling arena.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come to that in a minute.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

There are no plans for a bowl named after anybody at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

Obviously, the title deed holder is the State, but this is managed by Sport Ireland. What part of the campus is in use at the moment? We will say it is 500 acres.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will hand you back to Dr. May on that because she lives and works out there.

Dr. Una May

I am happy to go into the details but I want first and foremost to invite all members of the committee there because we can talk about it and members will have a vision of buildings, but it is amazing. We have currently in use approximately 50%, maybe. The intention would be that 30%, approximately, would be-----

An Cathaoirleach

What is happening with the other 250 acres?

Dr. Una May

There are plans afoot around the developments-----

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Dr. Una May

Right now?

An Cathaoirleach

I am asking you, today, what is happening with those 250 acres? If I go out there, what will I see?

Dr. Una May

I think Mr. Murray would like to-----

Mr. Michael Murray

I will come in on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it still agricultural use or-----

Mr. Michael Murray

It is agricultural use.

An Cathaoirleach

So is it leased to someone?

Mr. Michael Murray

It is leased to a farmer.

An Cathaoirleach

That is all right. That is what I wanted to find out.

May I ask Sport Ireland about the contractual claim? As I understand it, the work is finished on this courtyard office, which is Sport Ireland's own offices. Where is that at at the moment? Is it going into the legal track or is it being sorted out by some dispute mechanism?

Dr. Una May

Mr. McLoughlin will answer that.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

I think both parties, the contractor and our people, are still talking. There is still a significant difference, I think, between both positions, but we have not gone legal yet. I think there will be one more go at conciliation before we head for arbitration.

An Cathaoirleach

What body is overseeing that at the moment? Is it in some dispute mechanism?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

Yes. I do not think conciliators have been appointed yet, but they will be.

An Cathaoirleach

So it is just face to face, the two of you.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

At the moment it has not gone to that formal stage yet, but it is probably heading that way.

An Cathaoirleach

What was the overall budget for that project? What was the contract, the final figure?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

I will get that for you. I think I have that on me. I will have to forward it to you.

An Cathaoirleach

What is it in the range of?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

I think it is around €4 million.

An Cathaoirleach

What level of construction inflation was there in that project over its lifetime, from the point it started out?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

Again, I have those figures but I do not have them on me. I do not think construction inflation was a major issue at the time because that was built around 2018, which was pre-Covid. The inflation issue seems to have really taken off, obviously, since Covid, with the lack of contractors. I can get you those figures, but I do not think there was a very high element of construction inflation in that particular project.

An Cathaoirleach

Have some claims been settled at this point?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

Yes. We are up to final account stage. There is a difference now in the final account figure between us and the contractor.

An Cathaoirleach

Did you have to amend the budget at any point?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

The courtyard office budget?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

Yes. There would have been change orders, I think, during the project, which would have increased the budget. They would have been signed off by our campus director, who is responsible for the monitoring of capital projects.

An Cathaoirleach

The next big piece of work out there is, as I heard Dr. May say earlier, the velodrome and some other piece of infrastructure to be put in. What was that? Dr. May, you mentioned two things-----

Dr. Una May

I mentioned the offices as well as athlete accommodation. Those are our two main priorities now. The velodrome is the next major project. We have planning permission already in place for the velodrome, so as soon as we receive funding for that we will be ready to start. The next step after that is athlete accommodation, in respect of which we are still in the development stages of design development.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the estimated cost of the velodrome?

Dr. Una May

Because we have not gone out to tender yet, it is hard to put a cost on it.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that. I do not want you to put the final price on it because, obviously, it will be going to tender, but is it €5 million, €100 million?

Dr. Una May

It is in the upper range, I think, of what you have described there.

An Cathaoirleach

So it could be upwards of €50 million.

Dr. Una May

It is a very significant piece of infrastructure and a very complex and unique building, so there are a lot of elements to it and we have had to bring in external track building companies. It is a merger. It is also not just a velodrome; it will be a national velodrome and badminton centre. The centre, which will be intentionally set up to host badminton as the national centre-----

An Cathaoirleach

But the velodrome, the actual cycling track, will be at a different level.

Dr. Una May

Yes. It will be at a level above. What would be described as the infield will host multiple different sports and uses, so it will have potential commercial uses as well as sporting uses in the future, which will help to fund it.

An Cathaoirleach

How many people in the State are involved at this point? Is there an assessment as to who is interested in the activity of using a velodrome?

Dr. Una May

The numbers would be relatively small right now, but we have a very successful high-performance programme-----

An Cathaoirleach

How many are there?

Dr. Una May

-----in track cycling. I do not know the exact numbers. It is a discipline within cycling which includes track cycling, BMX, mountain biking and so on, so the members are not defined, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

Dr. May, we may spend somewhere between €50 million and €100 million on providing this velodrome. I and some other public representatives were at a meeting yesterday with Ministers and we were looking for somewhere between €1.5 million and €2 million for a school hall in the whole southern half of the county that does not have one, and we know how many will use that. We had to tell the Minister yesterday how many and we have had no luck just yet in opening the door on that case. I am just making the comparison. If we are going to provide €60 million, €70 million, €80 million, €90 million, €100 million or more - I do not know, and I am trying to be fair to you on this - and we do not know, and Sport Ireland does not know, and Cycling Ireland, I think it is called, has not provided a figure-----

Dr. Una May

It is important to acknowledge that this facility is not just for track cycling. We do not have a velodrome in Ireland at the moment. In order to have a community who take part in an activity, it is necessary to have a facility, and there is no velodrome in the entirety of Ireland, north or south of the Border. We do have a very successful high-performance programme, which has reaped many medals for us at an international and an Olympic level. Our athletes have to train overseas. We have reviewed business models for the velodrome and its usage and we anticipate significant usage not just within the existing cycling community but within a lot of others. Mr. Murray might want to contribute on that. We have visited other velodromes and looked at their business models.

Mr. Michael Murray

We expect in or around 100,000 users a year using the velodrome only but, as Dr. May alluded to, there is also-----

An Cathaoirleach

What is that based on?

Mr. Michael Murray

It would be based-----

An Cathaoirleach

At the moment we do not even know how many are interested.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, but the user group will be high-performance. There will also be clubs, recreational use-----

An Cathaoirleach

But, Mr. Murray, how many high-performance cyclists are there in the State-----

Mr. Michael Murray

I do not know that.

An Cathaoirleach

-----participating at competitive level?

Dr. Una May

Our high-performance track cycling programme is currently based in Spain.

An Cathaoirleach

I am all for cycling, by the way. I am not against cycling-----

Dr. Una May

Our high-performance track cycling programme is currently based in Mallorca. It is currently supporting a very small elite group, who are targeting Olympic qualification as we speak, and our Paralympic cyclists, who have been extremely successful on the track as well. Right now, we are supporting only that small group from a high-performance side, so we do not have a full programme other than the identified targeted high-performance cyclists.

An Cathaoirleach

What I am trying to get to here is that there is a pot of money, a certain amount of money, for sport from the Department, and here we are going to build a velodrome. I actually had to check what a velodrome was, excuse my ignorance, before this meeting. I was not sure what a velodrome was. It struck me that we are going to enter into such a big capital project on the basis that there is a small elite group. As to how many will use this, how much market research has been done on this?

Dr. Una May

A lot of research has been done around the business models, and Mr. Murray alluded to the fact that the facility is a lot more than a velodrome. The velodrome is at a level above a significant piece of sports infrastructure which will cater for specifically the national badminton centre but many other sports as well. It is maybe an area that is difficult to put a finger on when we do not have a velodrome, as is the question as to how many people will use it when we have one. As for the usage internationally, our athletes are based in Mallorca because they cannot access any of the five velodromes in the UK as they are all at full capacity, so they are very popular once they are actually established, from that point of view.

An Cathaoirleach

Could I-----

Dr. Una May

If I could conclude, cycling is one of the identified key sports. It is one of the fastest-growing sports in its participation rates and has been identified in the national sports policy. One of the challenges is that cycling is becoming quite high risk on the public roads. Unfortunately, there have been a number of deaths of cyclists on the roads. From the point of view of the growth and development of the sport, it is very important that we have environments where we can nurture, grow and develop activities in a safe environment. A velodrome would be an example of that.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not know if Dr. May is familiar with the cycle track that runs across the Slieve Bloom Mountains from Laois to Offaly.

Dr. Una May

I am.

An Cathaoirleach

That track needs to be finished. Its completion is important. I have been a supporter of that cycle track.

Without being too parochial, I will ask Dr. May about St. Fergal's College, Rathdowney. We met the Minister for Education yesterday about the school's need for a school hall. It was built as a vocational school in 1937. It covers the southern third of Laois and there is no indoor sports hall in that part of the county. There is a general purpose hall that is too small. The boundaries for physical activity reach to within 9 in. of the concrete block wall. It lacks proper ventilation and is totally unsafe. It is used for dining. The teenagers in the secondary school eat their lunch there so if people come in afterwards to play games, there may be spills on the floor, which would have obvious consequences. That school has no indoor space for physical activity. Approximately 10% of secondary schools lack such facilities but in 60% of those cases, the students have access to community facilities in the same village or town. I want to talk about the use of public funding. Other schools have an alternative to on-site facilities. There are few schools in a position similar to St. Fergal's College. The nearest facilities are in Portlaoise, which would mean a round trip of 70 km or more. That is not practical. The Department of Education does not have an allocation for halls but it is trying to install autism spectrum disorder, ASD, units and extra classrooms because of population increases. We are looking down the line. However, one of the things discussed at the meeting was the possibility of collaborating with another body. I am asking Dr. May these questions because she is the CEO of Sport Ireland. The school in question is coeducational. It needs a sports hall, as does the area. I do not want to speak for the education and training board, ETB, but it is very good in terms of community involvement. It would be open to a collaborative project for community use in the wider Rathdowney, Ballacolla and Borris-in-Ossory areas in the south of Laois. What can Sport Ireland do in that case?

Dr. Una May

I will give the Cathaoirleach my own position on that but it is more of an issue for the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in respect of the available capital. From our point of view, we are supportive of the concept of multisport and community-shared use. Through the development of the local sports plans, it is our intention to promote the concept of shared-use facilities. As I mentioned earlier, the brief for the Minister of State with responsibility for sport now includes physical education. That opens doors for us to have greater partnership. We have been growing our partnership and relationship with the Department of Education to ensure that where those sorts of facilities do not exist, there is a collaborative partnership in ensuring they are provided. We are committed to providing whatever support we can. We are not in the position of having capital funding available for the construction but we would be very keen to support the development and would put in place the supports to ensure that the use of those facilities would be maximised. If I remember correctly, Rathdowney is one of the areas where we have a community sports hub, which looks at trying to bring together the clubs in the community to work together to be more efficient and effective in how we operate them.

An Cathaoirleach

A wheelchair user will be coming to the school in the coming year. That person, who is involved in sport, will be excluded. There are children with disabilities in the school. The children who are using the ASD unit will need physical space but they do not have indoor space. The unit is 11 m wide. Its length has gone out of my head but I had written it down. Regardless, it is unsuitable for a growing school with a growing population. Some 42 Ukrainian families are moving to the area and they will be welcomed, in general, by the people of Rathdowney. There are international protection applicants in the area. For a very small town, it has taken on a lot despite having few resources. I am going to ask representatives of the Department to come in. I do not want to put our guests on the spot but I am trying to find a pathway to progress this facility.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

What the Chairman is raising is part of a wider issue. We, as a Department, recognise there is a need for more and longer-term sustainable capital investment in sports infrastructure. Grants for the first round of the large-scale sports infrastructure fund were announced in 2020. We are now doing drawdown on that. We have had conversations with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform about the potential of opening a second round. We are in the middle of talks with the Minister on that issue. It is that kind of large-scale funding that we, as a Department, would like to be able to do on a periodic basis every couple of years. In conjunction with the infrastructure map that is being developed by Sport Ireland, we could systematically fill the gaps in sports infrastructure around the country, with an emphasis on areas of disadvantage, facility sharing and participation.

An Cathaoirleach

I have mentioned schools, disabilities and minorities. I have mentioned two of the minorities who will be in the community soon. One group is already there and another group will be there soon. I can draw a line from Abbeyleix to Mountrath and the part of the county south of that line is without a sports hall. There is a need there. I am trying to be careful not to put our guests on the spot but the Minister for Education said yesterday that her Department is open to a collaborative project. In other words, if the Department of Education cannot come up with the pounds, shillings and pence, other organisations or Departments might be able to. Is there discussion in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media of such collaborative projects in the next round and is there funding for that?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Within the current rules for the sports capital round, which we hope to open in the coming weeks, there is space for collaboration between schools and sports clubs. There are many successful examples where sports clubs partner with a school so we get multiuse benefit. That is definitely an avenue at which schools could look. There is guidance on the previous round on our website and as I mentioned, we have done a review of that round with pointers to the future. When the Minister has opened the new round, we will be publishing a guide. It will certainly point to the possibilities for schools to partner with clubs to develop facilities.

An Cathaoirleach

The ETBs would be the title deed holders. They have in the past given long-term leases on pieces of land for sports facilities where there was collaboration. That will come down to the Laois and Offaly Education and Training Board, LOETB. That may be an option. Mr. Ó Lionáin is saying that openness is there. The Department might bear that in mind in the context of discussions in that area. There is a gaping hole. We have talked a lot this morning about inclusion and keeping girls involved in sport in secondary school. In the south of Laois, there is no opportunity to do that. We have turned our heads inside out to try to find a pathway. Yesterday's meeting was about this topic. I do not want to be parochial but I could not let this morning's opportunity go by without raising these matters. Perhaps Sport Ireland and the Department will keep those matters in mind when they are drafting criteria. I ask them not to spare the funding for County Laois. That is all I will say.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to address my questions to the Department and I will start specifically on swimming pools, the swimming pool programme, and what metrics the Department uses. Does it have a wall planner about it? I know that going way back the optimum is one swimming pool per 50,000 people. I know swimming pools are costly to run, and they do not make money, but they are a necessary facility. For example, I know in Kildare where there is a population of 247,000 people, according to the most recent census, if the optimum of one swimming pool to 50,000 people was the case, there would be five public swimming pools but there are two. Kildare County Council has on several occasions tried to get matching funding. I think there is an application in at the moment. Funding was allocated for a swimming pool for Lucan in west Dublin but it has not been built. Very often, the difficulty is coming up with matching funding between the local authorities and Government grants.

Does the Department use that 50,000 metric? To be perfectly honest, looking at the way money was allocated in recent years under the more recent programme, the constituency of the Minister at the time ended up with one tenth of all of the funding over the three-year period in which money was allocated. It does not appear that there is a method of allocation that is about objective resource allocation. If we make an investment, what do we get for that? How is that measured in terms of the opportunity for people to have access to swimming pools in a fair way?

I will make a second point on rapidly developing areas, the likes of Fingal, Meath and Kildare, for example. They are probably in the arc that have experienced the most rapid population growth when it comes to numbers. They do not get the matching resources to go with that. Is that factored into the metrics the Department uses in terms of either Sport Ireland or the Department regarding the kind of criteria that is used for the allocation of funds, because new communities find it very difficult to come up with matching funding? Nearly everybody has a mortgage, disposable income is less, and there is not community development to the point where people are connected to each other. It that part of the criteria?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Deputy for her questions. First, just to clarify, the local authority swimming pool programme has now rolled into the large-scale sport infrastructure programme. Under what is hopefully just the first round of that programme, which I referred to earlier, we funded eight separate swimming pool projects. I think a total of €86 million was awarded to 33 different proposals and eight of those are swimming pool projects.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Where are they going and what is the criteria?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will get back to the Deputy with the decision-making criteria used at the time. That was back in 2018 and 2019. Going forward and looking at a new round of the large scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF, we will certainly take the points the Deputy raised on board. We will also look at the infrastructure map developed by Sport Ireland and we will take cognisance of what is emerging from the national swimming strategy. If it is okay with the Deputy, I will ask my colleague, Mr. Ó Conaire, to give a very quick update on where the swimming strategy is because it is very important for the development of swimming and for the facilities.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

The national swimming strategy arose from a commitment in the national sports policy to develop one. It was in the sports action plan for 2021. Last year we set up a working group chaired by the Department, with input from officials on the sports capital side, Sport Ireland, Swim Ireland, CARA, which is the sports disability advocacy group, and a local authority representative. That group has met eight times. Last year, following setting up the group in July, we had a public consultation. There was a huge response rate, with more than 6,000 responses from the public which showed the level of interest there is in this. To put it into context, previous consultation the Department held had a response rate that was in the hundreds rather than in the thousands. It was a fair piece of work to gather and go through all of those responses. At the same time, we had a series of bilateral meetings with relevant Government Departments, Water Safety Ireland, the Olympic Federation of Ireland, other groups, etc. We have a draft and are meeting again in two weeks' time to hopefully finalise that draft and be in a position to publish the strategy itself later in the year.

As part of that, we identified a lot of the issues the Deputy mentioned. One of the things that has come through from the public consultation and from the bilaterals is the access to swimming facilities. Questions in the survey included: how close do you live to a swimming facility? Are you within 5 km, 10 km, etc.? How do you get there? It asked those kinds of things.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That does not necessarily always capture it. For example, in my area at the moment, Swim Ireland, in collaboration with Intel and Kildare County Council, has a pop-up pool. There are 74,000 people in the catchment area for that pop-up pool. It is daft. A person might only be five minutes or 5 km away from a private swimming pool. For example, if someone in my area wants to book a swim, he or she might have to do it three weeks in advance. The population catchment has to matter as well as distance.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

These are the issues that have some to light during the survey, etc. There are areas of the country where there are very long waiting lists for swimming lessons, for instance. There is the access issue relating to the distance from a facility but also getting into the facility and accessing lessons for children or for recreational swimming.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What will happen to this? Will we see the same kind of thing where a Minister who happens to be in that particular ministerial position ends up with the largest share of the money going to his or her constituency? Will this plan be based on objectively allocating resources in a transparent and geographically fair way?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

I suppose one of the benefits of the national digital database being developed by Sport Ireland is that it is capturing where facilities are across the country. At the same time, in a parallel process, Swim Ireland is conducting its own audit of all swimming facilities across the country. By the end of this year, we will have very good information on where swimming pools are, what level of access there is, and whether it is a private, local authority or community facility. As we develop that information, it will inform applications under sports capital programme and under the large scale sport infrastructure fund going forward. Officials in the Department will be able to see what the population levels are, what the demand is and what the current facilities are in a given area. That targeted approach, which comes back to the point made by the Cathaoirleach, will allow us to see those gaps across the country, so if there is a large swathe of a county that does not have a swimming pool or another sport facility, an astroturf or whatever, that will be apparent to us due to the work going on in developing these databases.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have another question regarding reputational damage in sport. I understand the remit of Sport Ireland is to develop sports. This issue came up when I was on the sports committee regarding the Football Association of Ireland, FAI. It was blindingly obvious there was a problem and I was the one who looked for the FAI governance arrangements to be considered by the sports committee at the time. I am very pleased to see the progress that has been made and I think people are voting with their feet on that. It does not negate the damage done, and there is a residual damage. For example, there is no sponsor for the senior men's team. Reputational damage impacts the income of a sport. We saw exactly the same thing with the Olympic Council of Ireland and there have been other, probably less high-profile, cases.

If a sporting organisation is not governed correctly and if these things are not picked up, there is no doubt that they fester and then do gigantic reputational damage. Does the Department recognise that there is a regulatory gap in the area of sport? If it does, what is being done to remedy that?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

With regard to dealing with reputational damage, if and when it arises, right now the immediate priority is on the successful roll-out of the governance code. If one looks at the sports ecosystem, we are currently in a build-up phase where there is a focus on broadening funding, filling infrastructure gaps and providing as wide an opportunity for grassroots, elite and club participation. The governance code is a very important step in trying to improve how sports operate-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I understand codes. We are brilliant at self-regulation, but then we discover that self-regulation sometimes does not cut the mustard when there is an obvious problem. What tools will be used to ensure the governance codes are enforced rather than voluntarily adopted?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Before I hand over to Sport Ireland on how we are collectively pursuing the governance code, it is the view of the Department that we need to get into a position where there is already a strong culture of self-regulation. Then it is possible to assess where the enforcement gaps may or may not be. We are only now getting to the stage where there is strong awareness and buy-in on the importance of self-regulation. Sport Ireland is rolling out the implementation of the governance codes, so I will hand back to Dr. May.

Dr. Una May

I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin. I will defer to Mr. McGinty on this because he manages the area. The Deputy is absolutely right. It is very important that we avoid reputational damage in sport. We can show that we have taken this very seriously by the number of audits we carry out. In the year in respect of which we are currently reviewing the financial statements, there was a significant increase in audits. We carried out almost 30 audits of national governing bodies and local sports partnerships during that year. Our number of audits continues to remain high. We have introduced new types of audits to make it more efficient and more economical, and specifically targeting the governance code and its implementation. It is something we take very seriously. I would definitely agree with the Deputy that the reputational damage can be very hard to recover from. We have always felt that we in Sport Ireland are not afraid to lift the lid and that if we find problems we work together with the governing bodies to ensure that there are not problems. We are not waiting for a scandal to happen before we address these things, which is why we have such a heavy load on our audit programme. It is something we monitor very closely. The first year of the governance code was really only last year so we must give time to ensure it is properly embedded. The Deputy is also correct in saying that the self-assessment has limitations. From our point of view, the first step is to have self-declaration and then for us to go and verify the veracity of those of declarations, which is very important.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does Sport Ireland look across the spectrum? Very recently we had an example where there was a stay on some of the funding for the FAI. The funding in question was retained by the Department. I am sorry to keep going on about the FAI but it is such a good example of where failure can happen. At the same time, funding was being allocated for UL, but perhaps I am wrong about this and am using the wrong example here. I am not using the right example here. Does Sport Ireland look across the funding streams?

Dr. Una May

We do. We carry out specific audits. Some of our audits were specific Covid funding audits. At the time, everybody was in crisis mode and it was an emergency measure. We wanted to ensure that shortcuts were not being taken and we wanted to ensure that those measures were implemented appropriately. We carried out audits targeting specific funding schemes. We reviewed the core funding for the big three and looked at it over the years. We target specific areas of funding and we target across the board from the smallest of the national governing bodies right through to the local sports partnerships.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On the amount of funding that is allocated by Sport Ireland to the FAI is a very small in proportion to the FAI income. Would the governance code capture the other side of it? I am just using this as an example because one could equally see the same thing with other sports. Would it capture difficulties such as those that emerged, which would not be within the envelope of funding the came from Sport Ireland? If I recall, it was not an issue in the context of the funding allocated by Sport Ireland and how it was used. It was other aspects of the governance that were problematic.

Dr. Una May

If it is okay with the Deputy, I will defer to Mr. McGinty, who manages the audit programme.

Mr. Colm McGinty

With regard to the practical response to the FAI, it was a wake-up call for the sector. It is absolutely the case that a governance difficulty or crisis in one organisation can have an impact on the wider sports sector. We recognise that. In 2019, we brought in changes to the terms and conditions of funding, including strengthening the audit clause to confer full audit rights on Sport Ireland whereby its auditors would be entitled to not just follow the money but also look at the wider governance of an organisation. That applies to the FAI and any organisation that we fund. The governance code has come on the back of that. It is influencing positive change and it is improving standards in governance across the sector.

I will also speak to our role as a developmental organisation. Our Gov-Enhance programme was a new sector specific governance support programme that we rolled out. It is a distinct and new programme that we rolled out in 2020 in support of our ongoing commitment to continuously build the governance capability in the sports sector. A total of 28 events were delivered in 2021. More than 1,700 people attended those events, networks, seminars and masterclasses, and one-to-one governance clinics. All of these were around improving the governance capability of the sports sector.

A point was alluded to around the self-declaration process. Ethical behaviour at board level will trump codes all day long. We have spent a great deal of time and placed much emphasis in our Gov-Enhance programme around principle 5 of the governance code, which is around behaviour behaving with integrity. Upholding the principle of integrity is a critically important foundation of governance, whether there is a regulator in sport, or whether Sport Ireland is overseeing our monitoring programme. We have put a lot of emphasis and focus on principle 5 of the code. We are not shy about saying that in our view it is the most important principle of the five principles in the code. If one gets that wrong, it does not matter what one gets right.

We have a compliance monitoring programme. It consists of random sampling, desk-based analysis of the governance code declarations and compliance record form reviews. We have upped our internal audit programme significantly. In 2021, a total of 31 audits were commissioned. We have rolled out that and the assurance process to underpin our ongoing assessment to monitor the organisations we fund and their compliance with the code. Where we find gaps or shortcomings, we work with the organisations involved to ensure that these are dealt with. We enter into a liaison process with them. We are very hands on and have a range of interventions around getting them into a state where they become compliant with the code and that they adopt the code. As I mentioned earlier, it is a constant process.

An Cathaoirleach

In 2019, the FAI had liabilities of the order of €70 million. What is the current position in that regard?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

The last set of financial statements that we have are for 202, when there were €63 million in loans and another €40 million payable in respect of other creditors.

We heard recently that it reduced its loan by €20 million. It issued that statement last week so-----

An Cathaoirleach

What does Mr. McLoughlin think the current figure is?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

According to the FAI, it is about €44 million in loans. The financial statements are going to its audit and risk committee within the next two weeks. We will get a copy of them and review them as we do in the normal manner and go back with any queries we have.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it a completely new board or has there been some overlap with the old board?

Mr. Jason McLoughlin

I think it is a completely new board.

Mr. Colm McGinty

It is a completely new board.

An Cathaoirleach

Are representatives from Sport Ireland on the board?

Mr. Colm McGinty

There are no representatives from Sport Ireland on the board but there are six independent directors. It is a 12-person board with six independent directors. That is a condition of the memorandum of understanding. There are six directors who might be called football directors. They are all collectively responsible and act as a collective.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the gender make-up?

Mr. Colm McGinty

Three out of 12 members of the board of the FAI are female.

An Cathaoirleach

Three men?

Mr. Colm McGinty

Three females. Not so long ago, it was zero. The number now is three. We are advised by the FAI that it will be four over the summer time because there is a vacancy for one of the independent directors. We have been advised it is highly likely that subject to the approval of the general assembly and the FAI's internal procedures, it will be a female candidate. The FAI has publicly committed to meeting the Government target of 40% gender balance on its board by the end of the year.

An Cathaoirleach

It will be able to catch up with the Dáil - just about. I thank the witnesses from Sport Ireland and the two gentlemen from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media for their work in preparing for today's meeting and for the information they provided. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and the staff of his office for attending and assisting the committee. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings for today's meeting? Agreed. The meeting will suspend until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and other business of the committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish the FAI and the Irish football team well over the next three or four days. That could make a sizeable difference in the future. It is because we all care about it that we want the governance to be right.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.03 p.m. and resumed at 1.33 p.m.