COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Feb 2024

FAI: Matters relating to Governance and Funding

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputies Kelly and Munster. Everybody is welcome and I remind all in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply.

Members are reminded of the provision of Standing Order 218 that they shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. It is furthermore not the role of the committee to make findings of fact about a person who is not a member of the committee of the Oireachtas, which could impinge on their good name or reputation. I ask members to be mindful of this in their examination of the issues in question. I remind the committee of my obligation as Cathaoirleach to ensure compliance by this committee with standing orders for the orderly and fair conduct of the proceedings. I am in particular obliged to ensure the committee stays within the scope of the orders of reference and within the terms of the invitation that has been issued. I ask committee members to respect that ruling, or any rulings, I make in this regard.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning we engage with officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media to examine the following matters: appropriation accounts 2022; Vote 33 - programme D, sports and recreation services.

We are joined by officials from Sport Ireland to examine Sport Ireland financial statements 2022. We are also joined by representatives of the Football Association of Ireland, FAI. The FAI has been invited to assist the committee in its examination of matters related to oversight and governance by Sport Ireland and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media, and the funding of the FAI including the following matters: the Department and Sport Ireland's oversight and governance of grant funding from Sport Ireland to the FAI, including funding allocated through the Sport Ireland Covid-19 relief fund; the interest-free concessionary loan of €2.5 million per annum for three years from the Government to the FAI, including the conditions attached to same and the schedule for repayments; and the Department's and Sport Ireland's oversight and governance of the conditions of the memorandum of understanding signed by the Minister for sport and the FAI in January 2020, including the oversight and conditions relating to the remuneration of the chief executive and the reporting and remuneration of all staff for Sport Ireland. The committee furthermore wishes to discuss the following matters on a voluntary basis with the FAI, which relate to the oversight and governance of the FAI: oversight and governance of decisions to make a payment in lieu of annual leave to the chief executive of the FAI; oversight and governance of funding for the Schoolboys/girls Football Association of Ireland, SFAI; the FAI's proposals that revenue from tax on betting be allocated to the FAI and other sports; and FAI plans for the use of the leased 30 acres at Brooklodge, Glanmire, County Cork.

An invitation was extended to the SFAI to attend this meeting but FAI has informed us that the FAI board discussed representation with the SFAI and it was felt that the FAI could adequately address any queries that the committee may have on oversight and governance of the funding that the FAI offers to the SFAI. We have big teams on the pitch this morning. We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media: Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, Secretary General; Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary in the sport division; and Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire, principal officer in the sports policy unit. We are joined by the following representatives of Sport Ireland: Dr. Una May, chief executive officer; Mr. Colm McGinty, director of governance and strategy; and Mr. Shane Califf, director of national governing bodies. We are joined by the following representatives of the FAI: Mr. Jonathan Hill, chief executive officer; Mr. Paul Cooke, president; Mr. Tony Keohane, chairperson of the board; Mr. David Courell; chief operating officer; Mr. Dan McCormack, finance director; Ms Catherine Guy, independent board member; and Ms Liz Joyce, independent board member.

The committee had also requested that the attendance of the people and culture director, the former finance director and the chairperson of the audit, risk, compliance and finance committee of the FAI board but the FAI has confirmed that they are not available. We are also joined by Mr. Dermot Nolan, principal officer, from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome.

I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The appropriation account for Vote 33 records gross expenditure of €1.23 billion in 2022. Expenditure programme D, sports and recreation services, accounted for €213 million, or 17% of the total spend in the year.

Within the sports programme, the most significant area of spending relates to grant funding for Sport Ireland. In 2022, the grant funding provided under subhead D5, which provides Sport Ireland’s core funding, amounted to just over €147 million. A further €12 million was provided to Sport Ireland under subhead D6 in the form of dormant accounts funding support for sports measures.

The original Estimate for subhead D.5 anticipated spending of around €106 million in 2022. A Supplementary Estimate for €35.2 million was approved to provide help for sports clubs and organisations facing significantly higher energy costs, and to allow Sport Ireland to meet additional costs arising from the application of the Building Momentum pay agreement.

A number of the programme subheads relate to capital funding for sports infrastructure, disbursed by the Department. There was significant underspending in 2022 on subhead D7, which is a fund for large-scale sport infrastructure projects. In that case, only around one-tenth of the amount provided in 2022 was utilised, with the underspending being attributed to knock-on impacts of Covid-19.

Sport Ireland’s main functions are to encourage the promotion, development and co-ordination of competitive sport and to facilitate increased participation in sport by the population generally. Sport Ireland’s expenditure in 2022 was €147.2 million. Almost three-quarters of this was accounted for by recurrent grant payments to support sports bodies and individual sports persons. Nearly €21 million was paid in 2022 under the temporary energy resilience scheme, which provided financial support for the sports sector to alleviate increased energy costs.

Sport Ireland is almost exclusively funded from Vote 33. In 2022, its income from State sources totalled over €148 million, out of total income recorded of €150.7 million.

Members may wish to note that Sport Ireland treated significant funding provided from the Vote in 2022 as deferred income. The statement of financial position indicates that deferred income increased from €1.8 million at the end of 2021 to €15.8 million in 2022. The increase was almost exclusively related to €14 million being held over for energy costs support grants in 2023. As a result, Sport Ireland had cash balances of almost €31 million at end 2022.

Sport Ireland’s fixed assets had a net book value of around €153 million at end 2022. This reflects past investment in the provision of the extensive Sports Campus Ireland facilities. Depreciation on the assets, totalling €6.3 million in 2022, is reflected on the income and expenditure statement.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the Sport Ireland financial statements for 2022.

An Cathaoirleach

We will now hear opening statements from departmental officials and representatives of Sport Ireland and the FAI. I ask witnesses to please keep within the five minutes set out in the letter of invitation. I congratulate Mr. Ó Coigligh on his appointment. We have met before when he was a senior member of staff in another Department regarding the national broadband scheme and related matters. I again congratulate him on his new appointment and ask him to proceed with his opening statement.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Ar dtús, gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as ucht cuireadh a thabhairt d'oifigigh an Roinn a bheidh anseo inniu. Fáiltím roimh an deis labhairt leis an gcoiste maidir le Cuntas Leithreasa 2022 don Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán mar a bhaineann sé le clár D, seirbhísí spóirt agus áineasa.

The Department, in tandem with Sport Ireland, worked to support and underpin the sport sector with effective policy measures and funding throughout 2022. That year saw a return to a relatively normal level of activity across the sporting sector from mid-year onwards, which was a welcome relief from the extensive pandemic restrictions of the previous two years. Notwithstanding this, the impact of the restrictions continued to be felt across the sporting sector and required the ongoing provision of some recovery supports.

Total expenditure under programme D, sports and recreational services, amounted to €212.9 million in 2022, representing an increase of 3% on 2021 expenditure. This figure includes €35 million by way of Supplementary Estimate to Sport Ireland to help alleviate the impact of increased energy costs for sports clubs and organisations, with a view to ensuring that everyone could continue to enjoy the benefits of sport and physical activity over the winter months.

The total allocation to Sport Ireland in 2022 was €147.4 million. Some €40 million of the overall spend in the sport budget related to expenditure under subhead D3, sports capital and equipment programme, which is the primary vehicle for Government support for the development of sports and recreational facilities and the purchase of non-personal sports equipment.

It is notable that the largest ever round of this programme was finalised in 2022 with total funding of over €166.6 million allocated to sports organisations and community groups across the country. In addition, the €12 million allocation from the Dormant Accounts Fund was expended in full on sports measures for the disadvantaged.

From a policy perspective, the sports leadership group, which was established to oversee and drive the implementation of the national sports policy, continued its work, focusing in particular on the Sports Action Plan 2021-2023. A new master plan for the Sport Ireland National Sports Campus was approved by Government in November 2022, providing the framework for the further development of the campus for the next 15 to 20 years.

The Government continues to support the hosting of major sports events in Ireland and to explore further hosting opportunities. In 2022 the Department undertook a public consultation on the hosting of major international sports events. The result of that consultation is feeding into the development of a new major events policy which is due for publication later this year.

The Aer Lingus College Classic series resumed in 2022 when Northwestern played Nebraska in Dublin with an estimated value of €69 million to the Irish economy. Preparations were also progressed for the 2023 game between Notre Dame and Navy, the Europa League Final in 2024 and the hosting of the Ryder Cup in 2027.

Turning now to the matters relating to the FAI, the memorandum of understanding between the Government and the FAI, agreed in January 2020, provided for a package of funding of €5.8 million per annum to the FAI for the period 2020 to 2023 for football development. In addition, a recoupable amount of €7.6338 million was provided to the FAI towards the licence fee payable by the Association for the Aviva Stadium for the years 2020 to 2022.

A further €33.7 million was provided to the FAI in Covid-19 grants between 2020 and 2022 as part of the Government's Covid-19 support for the sports sector. This significant level of funding supported the FAI, its affiliates, League of Ireland teams and over 400 grassroots clubs. A further €1.2 million was provided under the sport energy support scheme in 2022.

The MOU provided for a comprehensive range of reform recommendations, some 163 in total, which the FAI was to implement and embed over the lifetime of the memorandum. Sport Ireland was tasked with monitoring the implementation of those recommendations. On 30 January 2024, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, published a report on the progress made by the FAI on the implementation of the reforms set out in the MOU. The report notes that 159 of the 163 recommendations, or 98%, have been marked as either "Complete" or "Phase 1 Complete".

With regard to the issue relating to the salary of the CEO of the FAI, the MOU stipulates that the remuneration of the CEO would be no greater than the remuneration of officers in the grade of Secretary General. This is identified as MOU condition no. 35. The report of the auditors, KOSI, examining compliance with this condition, commissioned by Sport Ireland, was received in the Department on 5 October 2023 and was subsequently reviewed and considered. On foot of further engagement between the Department and Sport Ireland and the receipt of additional information from the FAI, Sport Ireland confirmed it was adequately assured that MOU condition no. 35 is now fully implemented in the FAI and the associated KOSI audit findings and recommendations have been satisfactorily implemented by the FAI. On this basis, on 30 November 2023, the Department informed Sport Ireland it could release the 2022 and 2023 funding to the FAI, which had previously been delayed.

I wish to confirm that the Department continues its work in supporting, maintaining and developing the sports sector, not forgetting the agencies, local authorities, organisations and clubs and the many participants and volunteers who all actively and regularly engage with the sector. I will be happy to expand on any of these areas or to explore other areas within programme D - sports and recreation services as the committee wishes. Go raibh maith agaibh.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Ó Coigligh. I call Dr. May.

Dr. Una May

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting today to discuss the 2022 financial statements for Sport Ireland and to share information on our role in the governance and oversight of funding to the FAI. The Cathaoirleach has already introduced my colleagues. Mr. Califf played a significant role in Covid-19 funding. To assist the discussion today, and in line with the letter of invitation, we submitted some briefing material to the committee previously. I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this opening statement today.

Sport Ireland is the statutory authority tasked with the development of sport in Ireland. Established under the Sport Ireland Act 2015, we are tasked with increasing participation in sport, supporting Ireland's high-performance athletes, operating Ireland's anti-doping programme, delivering coaching and training and developing the Sport Ireland campus. Highlights from 2023 include the launch of our new strategic plan and our management of the investment of €40 million in national governing bodies and €16 million in local sports partnerships to promote the development of sport. Across the sports sector over the past year, we have seen positive results, with participation levels rebounding to surpass pre-pandemic levels. We have now reached 47%; before the pandemic, this was 46%. We have seen significant international success, with 99 medals won across high-performance sporting events and we have had a record level of investment in the high-performance system. We have also seen compliance with the governance code for sport increasing by 3% to 95% and women now make up an average of 44% of board members across sports governing bodies in Ireland.

In addition to Sport Ireland's 2022 financial statements, we have received a clean audit from the Comptroller and Auditor General and we have also shared details on Sport Ireland's administered funding to the FAI within our briefing document. In relation to our oversight of funding allocated to the FAI, it has been well documented that Sport Ireland was tasked by the Government with having an oversight and monitoring role in relation to the MOU agreed between the Government and the FAI in 2020. Members will be aware there were issues around the embedding of MOU condition no. 35, a condition relating to the CEO and remuneration, which were uncovered via a Sport Ireland-commissioned audit. Following the audit, the FAI took the required corrective actions and this issue was subsequently resolved. A report on the overall implementation of the reforms set out under the MOU has been published by the Minister and the Minister of State. In summary, more than 90% of the required items have been completed and some very significant and tangible reforms have been delivered by the FAI.

While the journey of reform and change of the FAI since 2020 was not without its challenges and setbacks, the organisation has demonstrated that solid progress has been made on its transition to a better governance structure and improved practices. This transition will require ongoing work, resourcing and nurturing to ensure that good governance is at the heart of how the FAI operates and does its business into 2024 and beyond. Sport Ireland is committed to working with and supporting the FAI in the continuation of its journey of reform.

During 2020 and 2021, Covid-19 restrictions led to large-scale decreases in sporting activities across the country. Every aspect of life was profoundly impacted and this was certainly the case when it came to sport, the one thing that brought people together when we were not allowed to come together. The Government provided targeted Covid-19 resilience and recovery funds, and this allocation was administered by Sport Ireland. This unprecedented investment addressed the immediate financial and operational needs of the sector. It was for the purpose of offsetting financial losses and additional costs that arose because of the impact of Covid-19 and to ensure no viable sports organisation would become insolvent. The funding thereby contributed to the public health recovery post pandemic.

The Covid-19 grants schemes were like no other Sport Ireland investment programmes in terms of their context, size, scale, condensed timelines and support for grassroots clubs and community groups. Sport Ireland put an unprecedented post-allocation monitoring and compliance programme in place, which included a combination of executive reporting, as well as external and internal audit reviews. In 2020, a series of Covid-19-specific audits were undertaken by KOSI, representing 90% of that year’s funding. All received high ratings of assurance that the funds were spent in accordance with the conditions as set out. We are satisfied that the scheme delivered on its objectives and was well managed by the sports sector.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, and our colleagues in the Department, for their ongoing support. I welcome this discussion with the committee and I will be happy to answer any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. May. The chairperson of the board of the FAI wishes to make a short statement before I call Mr. Hill. I ask Mr. Keohane to keep it short.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Before I hand over to Mr. Hill, I want to say that we are extremely sorry for sending in material so late last night. This was due to the fact that we were working through some advice and also to enable us to give the committee as much information as possible. I refer to the information the committee requested. I hope the committee accepts our apology for this and it was in no way meant to be disrespectful to the Cathaoirleach or to any of the members.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. The only thing I will say in response is that we do give a lot of notice. Our secretariat is very efficient. We have been in contact with the FAI for several weeks and we would appreciate in future that we would have documentation supplied in a more timely manner. I thank Mr. Keohane. I call Mr. Hill now to give his opening statement. He has five minutes.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Good morning. On behalf of the FAI, I thank the committee for the invitation to address the committee today. As the members will know, the FAI is responsible for Ireland's biggest participation sport, with more than 450,000 people involved in the game. At the FAI, we greatly appreciate the funding we receive from the State and work to ensure that public money is always used for its intended purpose and in the most efficient way possible. We have robust auditing measures in place to ensure full accountability for how these funds are used. We believe Irish football is in a strong place and we have made significant strides in many areas in recent years. Much of this aligns with our strategic plan from 2022 to 2025, which is being overseen and delivered by a highly capable team.

We have come a long way in recent years to put the FAI on a more stable and sustainable footing. We have reduced our debt from €63.5 million to less than €43 million, which is being driven by the planned and systemic approach the FAI has adopted to reduce and restructure those debts. Last year, the FAI exceeded its revenue targets, with our three revenue pillars all performing well. Final revenues were in excess of €58 million for 2023, against our strategic target of €50 million.

The FAI, along with many other sporting bodies in Ireland, was significantly impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic. The Sport Ireland Covid-19 relief fund was vital in ensuring the association was successfully able to navigate this challenging period. The use of this funding has been the subject of a thorough audit, the results of which were positive. Details of this audit have been shared with the committee and we will be happy to address any questions that members may have in this regard.

As part of today’s agenda, we also have been asked to discuss other topics, including oversight and governance of funding for the SFAI, an FAI-commissioned report which outlines how the betting levy can be amended to deliver much-needed funding for all sports across Ireland, and the FAI's lease of a 30-acre site at Brooklodge in Glanmire, County Cork. We have provided information on all of these topics in our submission to the committee and look forward to discussing those today.

We also welcome the opportunity to provide clarification on recent governance-related matters. Agreed in January 2020, the memorandum of understanding, MOU, between the FAI and the Government was put in place for the period from 2020 to 2023, inclusive. As part of 163 recommendations, 159 of which have been implemented, MOU condition No. 35 covered the CEO's remuneration and required it to be in line with Government pay guidelines for a Secretary General. To ensure all the recommendations contained within the MOU were being adopted by the FAI, audits have been carried out by KOSI on behalf of Sport Ireland across all of the recommendations. The outcome of one such audit concluded that the FAI had not embedded MOU recommendation No. 35 in 2022 and that, in short, the CEO's total remuneration across 2022 and 2023 exceeded that of a Secretary General. This arose in connection with the miscalculation by the association of the BIK on certain expenses along with a payment made to the CEO in lieu of untaken annual leave.

Arising from the Oireachtas joint committee session on 13 December 2023, certain additional information was sought in respect of this issue. The issue of holiday pay arose in the context of another staff member applying via email for payment in lieu. This had been agreed by the then finance director and the COO. In response to this email, I agreed to the request and I made a suggestion in relation to my own unused holidays. The then finance director, who was copied on that email, evidently regarded this as a request and he then passed this on to the former chair. Discussion ensued between the former chair, the director of people and culture, the former finance director and the chair of the EPRCO. I was not party to these discussions. The former chair made a decision in February 2023 to approve the request and he addressed how this came about at the Oireachtas joint committee meeting in December last. The board acknowledges that the decision taken by the former chair to approve the request was taken in good faith and that the consequent breach of MOU recommendation No. 35 was unintentional. The board has also taken steps to ensure that the association’s processes are more robust moving forward.

It is important to point out that Sport Ireland and the Department have both expressed satisfaction that the matter is resolved and, indeed, had expressed this view and had considered the situation resolved in early November of last year. More broadly, both have remarked publicly and on the record on the strong progress made by the FAI in implementing 98% of the 163 reforms. The association regrets that these events take the focus away from the superb work being done across all levels of Irish football, from grassroots to the League of Ireland and through to our international teams. We also apologise for the difficulty it has caused for the extremely dedicated and committed FAI staff as well as for Sport Ireland and the Department. We are excited at what is to come in the rest of 2024 and beyond and are continuing to build on the progress made in reforming the organisation over the past number of years. Once again, we thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today and my colleagues and I are happy to answer members' questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Hill. The first committee member to contribute this morning is Deputy Paul McAuliffe, who has 15 minutes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Good morning to all of the witnesses before the committee. My first comment is on Mr. Keohane's apology for the late arrival of the documentation. I welcome the trail of emails that has been provided to us. It is something that was requested before Christmas by the Oireachtas joint committee. As the lead speaker here this morning, I want to say there is a great sense of frustration. This committee comprises TDs and we all finished voting after 10 p.m. last night. When we arrived back here this morning, the first time we saw the opening statements and the emails was at 8.45 a.m. The staff, who have been here for all of that time, are under severe pressure to try to get them to us. We are trying to read redacted emails and thread them together. By the way, they have been presented to us in reverse order of the timeline. It is very difficult to string them together or have a coherent understanding of what is happening. There is a long-running tradition in the Committee of Public Accounts that when organisations provide their documents late, we often go on to find out there is information being hidden from the committee. The FAI has put itself in this suspicious position because of providing the information late. I accept it is difficult. I know there was a request from it to defer this meeting but, as the Cathaoirleach has said, it was a long-standing invitation.

We appreciate that the FAI is here and that it is willing to engage with us. I wanted to speak about the 98% of the recommendations that have been completed. I would love to speak about the development of Dalymount Park and all of the great work going on in grassroots football. I presume the witnesses have provided this evidence because they believe that before they ask about spreading the betting tax, and I support this concept, there must be a credibility issue. The FAI was asked something very specific at the Oireachtas joint committee. Given that it has provided this documentation and information at the very last minute, I want to explore this issue first, although it was not my intention this morning. I wanted to speak about all of the Covid supports and other issues.

At the Oireachtas joint committee, there was a suggestion that the overpayment in regard to Mr. Hill was not something directly in his control. However, from the emails provided to us this morning it is very clear that the request for holiday pay came from him. Will Mr. Hill address the concern that either the Oireachtas joint committee was misled before Christmas or that Mr. Hill did not provide the full version of events? It does not seem to tally with the evidence before us whereby Mr. Hill specifically requested the payments.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I am very happy to address these questions. I believe that what was said in the Oireachtas joint committee is consistent with what we have presented today. If Deputy McAuliffe gives me a few seconds, I will go through it and perhaps give some context to those emails. I recognise the redacted emails do not give full clarity on the sequence of events. This is because of legal reasons, as the chair has explained. We did look to give you context in the opening statement. I am happy to expand on this as much as I can do legally.

You will see that an email was sent to me, actually in mid-November, that came from the junior employee we are seeking to protect from a legal perspective. I want to make that clear. In that email, I am asked if I agree to a request from that junior colleague to commute holidays that the employee could not take for exceptional circumstances to a cash payment. I accept that you cannot see the words in the redacted statement but that is for legal reasons. Within that, just to explain, both the then finance director and the COO had agreed to this request already and that is referenced in the email. I too agreed to it, although that was not a formal approval as due process would need to be followed.

Within that response - I am comfortable in saying this because it does not relate to the junior employee - I added a throwaway line to the junior colleague asking can you negotiate the same for me please with a question mark and an exclamation mark. For me, it is clear that this was not a formal request. It was in an email back to the junior colleague. I copied the then finance director to the note as I had agreed with what he had done. He obviously took that line as a request and used that email chain to go to the then chair. From then on I was not part of the process, although I was asked five weeks later, as would be normal at the end of the year, how many days holiday I had taken. I replied and asked what was happening with them, saying clearly that I would be happy to carry them over. The then finance director, who was copied on that email, continued the discussion with the chair and with the other people in the emails that you see.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Can I pause you at that point?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The email received by us was from Alex O'Connell on 5 December at 15.41. The second paragraph states that Jonathan is requesting to be paid his unused holidays. Are you suggesting that Mr. O'Connell was incorrect in taking as a request a line that you say is in an email I cannot see?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I cannot comment for him in relation to whether he was incorrect or not-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

You said that you did not intend the request.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I am saying that was his interpretation of the line that I have just explained to you, which is not in the redacted emails. That was his interpretation of it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

You are suggesting that Mr. O'Connell did not read your instruction correctly and that a joke in an email went on to become a formal process.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I am not saying that but it is clear from the emails that is what happened. I said that in the Oireachtas joint committee.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

You either requested it or you did not. Did you request it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I am saying that it was a throwaway line in the email which he then interpreted in the way that he did.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Let me put it a different way. Do you think it was reasonable for Mr. O'Connell to believe it was a request?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It was simply Mr. O'Connell's interpretation of the line.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is an extraordinary situation to put a fellow colleague in. To come before an Oireachtas joint committee and to put the blame for all of this on a misinterpretation of a line you inserted in your email. Do you accept that, as chief executive officer, the onus is on you to have been more clear and more reasonable and to have prevented it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Sure. In fairness to the former finance director, I think he decided to go down an appropriate route which was to talk to other senior people, both on the executive and on the board at the time. He went with that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Were all of those discussions and his decision to speak to all of those senior people done without your knowledge?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Correct. The email interchange that then followed was that he sent the email to the chair-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, I hear you.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The chair sent that on to Ms Liz Joyce. Ms Joyce, as she characterised it at the Oireachtas joint committee, said that was not a proposal from the finance director-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

You were not subject to that.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

-----it was simply an inquiry and so he followed what he believed was the right process to make that inquiry and the process then followed.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is your assertion before the committee that you included this throwaway line at the bottom of an email - again that the committee cannot see - and then your next knowledge was that the money arrived in your account?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No, as the Deputy will see from the emails there was an interaction at the end of the year about a question that would be asked of all employees at the end of the year as to how many holidays they had taken. There was an interaction with regard to that where, again, the finance director confirmed that a process was ongoing. The first time I-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So, you were aware a process was ongoing?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I left it to him for that process to-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We have confirmed, first of all, that there was a dispute about how the request arose but it is not disputed that you were aware there was a request for your unused holidays to be paid.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

As I said, I was not party to any of the discussions between the senior people who then went off with the process. I think the organisation and the association have admitted there were failures in the process-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To come back to your own evidence, Mr. Hill, you were aware at the end of the year of a request for a number of days that were outstanding. You were also aware there was a process to make a payment in exchange for those. You were aware.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I allowed Alex O'Connell and the process to then ensue.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Are you also aware, Mr. Hill-----

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Then, to answer the Deputy's question, the next I heard of it was a full ten weeks later and it was through an email sent to me saying that the association had decided to make the payment. That was confirmed at the Oireachtas joint committee.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As the chief executive of an organisation I am sure Mr. Hill has some understanding of and relies on the HR advice within the organisation. I am sure you are aware that the Organisation of Working Time Act provides for minimum rest for employees, not minimum pay. The entitlement you have to holidays within the annual leave within the Organisation of Working Time Act and the EU directive provides employees with rest, not payments. Why then, as the chief executive of an organisation, would you request payment for rest? You also said you are aware that that happened in other circumstances and it would be incredibly bad practice, as Ms Joyce said, for rest to be compensated for by pay. In fact, many readings of the Act would say that it is prohibited.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes. In both circumstances the association looked at the situations and decided there were exceptional circumstances.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That was the association's approach to it. The association I am sure is fully aware of what the Deputy just explained with regard to the legislation and the association is fully committed to ensuring all staff get the requisite amount of rest. As I say-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So you are suggesting-----

Mr. Jonathan Hill

-----all of that would have been discussed within the group and I was not part of that discussion and neither would it have been appropriate.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So, you are suggesting that there was something specific and unique to your request - that you did not make - and that the organisation went on to deviate from what is not only best practice but laid down in the legislation. Something in this magic email - which is entirely redacted, every single element of it apart from the logo at the bottom - gives a specific reason the chief executive of an organisation should be paid in compensation for holidays and rest. Is that what you are saying? It is all in the email. Do you know what is in it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Okay. I do know what is in it, yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What is it? What is specifically in it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

For the legal reasons the chair explained, the FAI did not feel comfortable it could release the detail of that email with regard to the junior employee, which I absolutely understand.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am talking about your request.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I will explain to you my position in relation to that. It was the association, rather than me, that looked to all of those issues you have just been talking about, in the round, and chose, under exceptional circumstances, to make the payment.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is that term "exceptional circumstances" which you have used twice now that I want to concentrate on. What are the exceptional circumstances that you outlined, or that the organisation outlined on your behalf, that meant it deviated both from best practice - the organisation's own HR practices - and the legislation?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I think it is quite simple. In both situations it was the inability, in a very difficult year in 2020, for either the junior employee or me to take all of the holiday period.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I do not wish to discuss the junior employee. Let us not confuse the facts. I am asking what your basis was. There was something unique in that year that meant you were not able to take your annual leave.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That is what the association decided when it reviewed the situation. Correct.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

You never made a case to anybody that you were unable to take your annual leave?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

At no point did I make any case with regard to that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is an extraordinary situation that an organisation would somehow, in a chain of emails, pick up on what is a throwaway line and then initiate a process to cost that organisation money. It is extraordinary that without any recourse to you, it would build a case that meant it was exceptional and unusual and that you should received this in breach of your own organisation's HR guidelines, in breach of what is best practice in terms of employee relations and perhaps in breach of legislation and that it would do all of that on its own and that you had no part in any of that.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I understand the Deputy's position and his statement but that is the situation.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I would have liked to have asked Ms Joyce to expand on her email but I have run out of time.

It is a very difficult situation for Mr. Cooke as president, with all of the members, to hear Mr. Hill outline this scenario that I think is incredibly difficult to believe. Do you have confidence in Mr. Hill?

Mr. Paul Cooke

Under Mr. Hill we have made great strides in the organisation, so far. I have confidence we can continue to make great strides as a board and with the senior leadership team, going forward.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr Cooke, I hear you choose your words correctly and everyone should do that before an Oireachtas committee. You have confidence in the board, you have confidence in the senior leadership team and you have confidence that the FAI will make progress. My question was, do you have confidence in Mr. Hill given the evidence that was presented here this morning?

Mr. Paul Cooke

I have confidence in the senior leadership team and the board going forward.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay, I do not want to continue to press you with the same question. When you say you have confidence in the leadership team and you are not answering the question that you have confidence in Mr. Hill, individually, can I infer some-----

Mr. Paul Cooke

No, I think Mr. Hill is part of the senior leadership team.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So, you have confidence in Mr. Hill.

Mr. Paul Cooke

I have confidence in the senior leadership team.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Do you have confidence in Mr. Hill?

Mr. Paul Cooke

I have confidence in the senior leadership team and in the board to continue the progress we are making.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I appreciate you are serving in a role. It is an important role in terms of the sport and the volunteers. They want to know if you have confidence in Mr. Hill who is paid a significant amount of money on behalf of the sport?

Mr. Paul Cooke

My confidence has certainly been challenged by the events.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Chair, I appreciate I am at the end of my time. There are two other executive board members.

An Cathaoirleach

Just be mindful of the fact of our remit.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes. There are two other executive board members, Mr. Keohane and Ms Guy. Do they have confidence in Mr. Hill?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, I have confidence in Mr. Hill and that we have made a huge amount of progress over the last number of years. The organisation, from what I have read in my few months here, has gone an awful long way from the legacy of the past. Some of that has been referenced by the statements from Sport Ireland and the Department, so there has been huge progress.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So you have confidence in Mr. Hill.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I do recognise there has been a slip-up. I have confidence that this leadership team, with Mr. Hill, will take on the challenges ahead including the learnings from this slip-up. Clearly, we have slipped back.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have one last question and I appreciate Mr. Keohane acknowledging the slip-up. Others might call it a different word. With whom do you lay accountability for that slip-up? Is it with Mr. Hill?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Well, it is on the organisation, including Mr. Hill. It is on the overall organisation. Clearly, I was not here at the time. That is not an excuse but I was not. I have taken the time to read in, which goes back to the Deputy's earlier question about the late delivery of the emails. It has taken a bit of time to make sure we had visibility of all of the emails and through the process over the last number of weeks-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Have you seen this email?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, I have.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Do you believe that the content of this email, which I cannot see, is in accordance with Mr. Hill's evidence this morning?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes I do. I would like you to believe that we strained ourselves to make sure we gave you as much information as possible, which is why we had the late delivery. It was on the back of pretty strict legal positions that we had to redact certain things.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I appreciate the position you are in.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Regarding your earlier question as to whether we were trying to hide something, the answer is "absolutely not". We will not be hiding anything. I will not be sitting here hiding anything in the future. There is no question about that. We will take the learnings and move forward.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Committee members would appreciate that.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I move to the next speaker, I would say to Mr. Hill that the emails not arriving until way beyond the eleventh hour is just not acceptable. Furthermore, would it not have been sufficient, from a legal point of view, to delete the name of the junior member of staff who seemingly made the biggest decision in regard to all of this? Would that not have been sufficient?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The decision to redact-----

An Cathaoirleach

We get many redacted letters here but in all my time on this committee, I have never seen a letter like that.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The decision to redact was not mine. It was a decision of the association-----

An Cathaoirleach

Was it simply to shield what went on?

Mr. Tony Keohane

May I come in?

An Cathaoirleach

No, I am asking Mr. Hill the question. Was that not simply to shield what actually happened here?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

My understanding in relation-----

An Cathaoirleach

Would it not have been sufficient to redact the name of the junior member of staff?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

My understanding of the legal advice that the association received, to which I have not been privy, is that the redaction is to protect the junior employee involved which, from a human perspective, is probably the right thing to do. It was not my decision but I think the chairman wants to comment.

An Cathaoirleach

Would you not agree that it protects others as well? That is what really transpired here.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

In my overview to you, I have given you the best context in relation to that email that I can. That is my position on it. The chairman wants to make a comment.

An Cathaoirleach

I would have to stretch my imagination to accept that. The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Thank you. You are all very welcome. In the first instance, in relation to sport, we do not spend nearly enough money on it but the one thing we want to see is that sport is well governed. That is what will give us the confidence to invest further. My first question is for Ms Joyce. Were you the person who ultimately had responsibility for embedding MOU No. 35 in the FAI?

Ms Liz Joyce

In fairness to the board, that is something they are implementing and ensuring the MOU is-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did you have specific responsibility for that?

Ms Liz Joyce

My responsibility, as chair of the executive performance and remuneration committee, EPRC, is to provide advice to the board on remuneration-related matters.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can you take us through the detail of the actuarial report received in 2020 and how you went about embedding?

Ms Liz Joyce

The EPRC regularly had updates in terms of what the CEO remuneration was, in line with the Secretary General's salary. The requirement was that the remuneration would be in line with that. We reviewed proposals from management from time to time related to that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are seeing emails where people were seemingly making requests but there have to be controls against which those requests are matched. Where were the controls? There was a fallout from this whereby funding was withheld. It had quite a substantial impact on soccer and the FAI. Where were the controls?

Ms Liz Joyce

There was a number of controls. The finance team was responsible for the implementation of approved amounts for salary. We were also updated regularly. For example, at the end of 2021 recommendations were made to us with regard to a situation in relation to BIK that had not been anticipated previously. We took a decision there to repurpose the budget related to that, to cover off BIK with a very clear-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Sorry to interrupt but there has been a loss of confidence as a consequence of this, particularly confidence in the board. Have you lost confidence in any member of the organisation as a consequence of this? Are you doubting and feeling that you have to watch everything now?

Ms Liz Joyce

I have not lost confidence in the team that is responsible for the implementation. We had a number of changes of personnel, which may have contributed to some of the calculation errors that occurred, resulting in one of the findings of the KOSI report, but I am confident that our current team is fully au fait with MOU No. 35 and that we are in a position to have adequate controls.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to ask Dr. May about the targeted funding related to Covid, the aim of which was to make sure that none of the organisations became insolvent. Obviously sport was incredibly important at that time, particularly at grassroots level. Was it intended that those funds would be used to keep the grassroots elements going? It seems extraordinary that there was a huge reduction in debt rather than making sure the FAI did not become insolvent. I completely understand that the FAI needs an awful lot more money but were other organisations in the same position whereby they could reduce their debt on foot of funding that was specifically related to Covid?

Dr. Una May

I am happy to answer that question. The Covid funding scheme was designed by Sport Ireland in consultation with the Department and with the approval of the Government. It was intended to offset the financial losses and any additional costs incurred as a result of Covid-19 to ensure that no viable sporting organisation would become insolvent. In recent years, Sport Ireland had been trying to ensure that major sports governing bodies were not as reliant on Exchequer funding and would generate a lot of their funding from commercial activities, including ticket sales and so on. During Covid the aim was to ensure that where there were significant losses, the funding could compensate for that in order to ensure that the organisations remained in place post Covid. We wanted to make sure that when sporting opportunities were allowed to reopen, there was a sporting offering available to people. The scheme had a number of different categories and I will ask my colleague, Mr. Califf, to go into more detail.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Very briefly, please.

Dr. Una May

There were categories around support for the national governing bodies.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What I am trying to get to is whether this funding was appropriately spent. There was an expectation that some of this money would go to the grassroots. Did it go to reducing the debt of the FAI as opposed to making sure that grassroots flourished or at least continued during that time?

Dr. Una May

I will pass that question to Mr. Califf, who has all of the details on that. A substantial amount of funding was disbursed to the clubs and the grassroots of sport.

Mr. Shane Califf

As Dr. May said, the primary focus of the scheme was to support losses in income or costs incurred as a result of Covid-19. We acknowledged that the larger-scale governing bodies and the larger-scale sporting organisations which generate the majority of their own commercial income and are less reliant on Exchequer funding would need the greatest support.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I really do not need a very long reply because I have very limited time.

Mr. Shane Califf

No problem. That was the premise of the scheme. The secondary piece around the scheme was to contribute to public health recovery. As part of the scheme we provided funding to the FAI for verified losses in income as a result of Covid-19. We also provided a total, over the two years, of-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Sorry to interrupt but is there a comparable situation where other large sporting organisations reduced their debt on foot of this funding?

Mr. Shane Califf

It is important for us to decouple the reduction of debt from what the funds were supposed to do. There are comparisons with other governing bodies for valid lost income as a result of Covid-19 and that is the purpose of the scheme. The grant was not given to offset any particular expenditure item. It was to offset the losses in income, which many of the sports had.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I might come back to that later on, if we get a second round. I go back to another point relating to Mr. Hill's pension arrangements. They are paid directly by the FAI. Is that a matching contribution?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

At the point of negotiating the contract, a range of additional benefits that included pension were discussed and agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are they paid into a scheme?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That is confidential in relation to my contract.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are they paid into a scheme?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That is not appropriate for me.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In the FAI, are there pension contributions paid in cash in lieu of being paid into a scheme?

Ms Liz Joyce

There is a pension scheme for the employees.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

But it is paid into a scheme as opposed to paid in cash for everybody.

Ms Liz Joyce

If employees choose to join the scheme.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there never a situation where it is paid in cash?

Ms Liz Joyce

It can be agreed that individuals have allowances in lieu of pension but-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Of pension?

Ms Liz Joyce

Or other benefits, if that was the case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

But specifically pension-----

Ms Liz Joyce

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----can be paid in cash.

Ms Liz Joyce

It would be paid as an allowance which would be taxable.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In lieu of contributions into a pension scheme?

Ms Liz Joyce

That could be arranged.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it arranged?

Ms Liz Joyce

I am not at liberty to give details of individual terms and conditions of employment.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Even leaving aside individuals, does that happen?

Ms Liz Joyce

It certainly happens from time to time in any of the organisations I have been involved in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Rather than "any of the organisations", I am specifically asking about this one.

Ms Liz Joyce

I am not in a position to comment on individual terms and conditions of employment. As the Deputy will appreciate, as an employer we have obligations.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am sorry the SFAI is not here. There is a degree of autonomy there but, from what I can see, there is a high degree of chaos in some locations. Will Mr. Hill confirm that the FAI is the governing body for soccer in Ireland and that these are not so autonomous that there is not a control by the FAI on some of the constituent bodies?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I will let Mr. Courell answer that. Generally speaking, I am pleased the Deputy has pointed out there are some very good people working with the SFAI. All of them are volunteers. All of them work incredibly hard in their specific area, which is the provision of football for young children, which really is a big part of what we do. They do that in an exemplary way. Mr. Courell will explain the relationship between the FAI and it.

Mr. David Courell

I thank the Deputy. By way of context for the committee, the structure of the game is in Ireland is that players register into clubs, clubs register into leagues-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not need the Ann and Barry version. I understand that.

Mr. David Courell

That is exactly what it was described to be. That is fine, but the Deputy was asking who is responsible for football in this country.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

For the governance, the structure of it and where things go wrong.

Mr. David Courell

The FAI is responsible for football in this country. However, the way we are structured, and that is what I was trying to outline, is that we are a company limited by guarantee. We have 37 affiliates, of which five are nationwide affiliates, be they provincial or, in this case, the SFA, which has responsibility for football up to the age of under 16. Each of those affiliates has a degree of autonomy, as the Deputy has outlined, but they do not work in isolation. As Mr. Hill pointed to, we are the largest participation sport in the country. We are wholly reliant on the goodwill of our volunteer teams across the country to deliver the game. On occasion, we will encounter governance challenges, as any organisation or sporting body will, but the FAI is available to support and guide those organisations whenever those instances arise.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will come back to Mr. Courell on that. It does not feel like that sometimes.

Deputy James O'Connor

I want, first and foremost, to express my appreciation for the FAI, Sport Ireland and officials being here this morning. It has been an extraordinary meeting so far. I start with the Sport Ireland funding that was provided to the FAI. What was the gross figure of Covid support funding provided through Sport Ireland's schemes in general? If Dr. May could provide that, I would deeply appreciate it.

Dr. Una May

This is the funding over the course of the whole three years of the funding that was available.

Deputy James O'Connor

That would be correct.

Dr. Una May

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Shane Califf, who has all the exact details around that.

Mr. Shane Califf

A total of €173 million in resilience funding was made up of, in 2020, €70 million Covid resilience fund and an additional €15 million provided by Government for the intercounty championships to be played behind closed doors; in 2021, a total of €73 million, which was made up of-----

Deputy James O'Connor

To the FAI?

Mr. Shane Califf

Sorry, this is the total of the different types.

Deputy James O'Connor

No, to the FAI, please. We are not here to talk about GAA.

Mr. Shane Califf

To the FAI, the total was €33.7 million over the three years. That was made up of €13.2 million in the first year, and in the second year, of €11 million to the governing body, the FAI, €5 million to the League of Ireland and-----

Deputy James O'Connor

So, €33 million?

Mr. Shane Califf

It is €33.7 million all inclusive, yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

Returning to Dr. May, these funds were given very specified and detailed use in this particular document, COVID 19 GRANT SCHEMES Funding Guidelines & Application Process, that would have been provided to the FAI. On the second page of that document, it states clearly that "Sport Ireland must be fully satisfied that the grant is absolutely required" and "The funding is targeted at issues arising from COVID 19". The next point is that " pre-existing debts or deficits will not be covered". Is that correct?

Mr. Colm McGinty

I am taking it that the Deputy is reading from the terms and conditions of funding, which I do not have in front of me. I am not sure if Mr. Califf has the conditions of funding in front of him so that he can go into that detail.

Mr. Shane Califf

Okay, that is correct.

Deputy James O'Connor

In the opening statement today provided to the committee by the FAI, Mr. Hill stated "We have reduced our debt from €63.5 million to less than €43 million". How did Mr. Hill do that?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I can give the Deputy the top-line approach to that. It is a combination of scheduled repayment and a degree of unscheduled repayment. I will let our finance director go through the detail of it.

On scheduled payment, to give the Deputy an example of how that would work, in 2019-2020, when we were speaking to a number of our key stakeholders about that €63.5 million legacy debt we inherited from the previous administration, conversations happened with individual stakeholders. One of those was probably one of our most important stakeholders, which is UEFA. UEFA pays to us, as indeed it pays to all of its federations, an amount of money that covers a centralised approach to certain of our marketing and broadcast rights, in particular our senior men's national team. It was agreed as part of the wider approach to addressing that inherited debt that, of those already agreed payments on an annualised basis, an amount would be paid directly to the Bank of Ireland in relation to the debt that we had with the Bank of Ireland. That would be an example of one of those scheduled repayments of debts.

Deputy James O'Connor

I am interested. Where did the funds come from to do that?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I have just explained to the Deputy that the funds for that particular example came from the value in our commercial rights relating to the men's national team. It was a wholly logically thing for us to do and the sensible thing for the guys who agreed the memorandum of understand to agree with UEFA. The money was paid directly from UEFA through to the Bank of Ireland because you can imagine that the Bank of Ireland, looking at the mess that the administration was before, may have wanted some guarantees and some comfort as to where the money would come from to repay that debt.

UEFA would be one of them. There are other examples relating to the way in which we make our scheduled repayment of debt. On that basis the number would come down from €63.5 million, and indeed it has done. I will now allow Mr. McCormack to go through the detail of the other areas in which that was done.

Could I just make one point to the Deputy on the repayment of debt, some of which came with a very high interest rate? It was wholly sensible for the organisation, as we look to become self-sufficient and sustainable in the future. Particularly with the fact we have won the right to host Euro 2028, which brings financial benefit to us in 2028, while we will have four hard and difficult years up to 2028, we are hopeful that by 2031 we will have paid down that debt.

Deputy James O'Connor

Was any of the Covid funding received from Sport Ireland used in any way to pay back the FAI's debt to Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

As I said, I will allow Mr. McCormack to go into the detail of how the funding was used. Mr. Califf will tell the committee that all of the money that was granted in relation to Covid-19, the €33.2 million, was all audited and agreed by Sport Ireland.

Deputy James O'Connor

My second question-----

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Would Mr. McCormack like to go through the wider approach?

Mr. Dan McCormack

On reducing levels of debt, almost all of this was met through the FAI's own income streams. For clarity, there was one instance of Sport Ireland's funding being used against capital debt repayments, but this was isolated to a case of legacy commercial liability with a former sponsor.

Deputy James O'Connor

How much was that?

Mr. Dan McCormack

It was under €1 million.

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Mr. McCormack give me the exact amount, please?

Mr. Dan McCormack

I think it was just under €1 million across the two schemes – scheme 1 and scheme 2.

Deputy James O'Connor

If I can, I will go back now to Dr. May. I read out the terms of Sport Ireland funding. It very clearly states that the funding provided to the FAI, or any other organisation that received it, was not to be used for the payment of debt. What is her response to that?

Dr. Una May

I will refer to Mr. Califf. At the time of the Covid funding reviews and the monitoring of the Covid funding, we sought the support of KOSI, which carried out an audit. It provided us with assurances that the funds that were provided to the FAI were accurately spent on investing in the incurred losses. The key focus of our scheme was to ensure that at any stage of the process only specific losses that were incurred as a result of Covid-19 were supported through this scheme. That was the outcome, and the outcome of the audit was that we received substantial assurance from KOSI that the scheme was addressed properly and was appropriately enforced.

Deputy James O'Connor

If the FAI was in a position to repay the €20.5 million debt, how did it qualify in the first instance for the Covid scheme?

Dr. Una May

I can again defer to Mr. Califf, but there were a lot of terms and conditions and a lot of monitoring of where there may have been overlaps with other schemes run by the Government, such as wage subsidy schemes and number of other schemes, so they were all addressed and taken into consideration in establishing the losses that were made by the FAI.

Deputy James O'Connor

Surely it would have appeared in the quarterly financial reports. Would there not have been an indication there? When did Sport Ireland become aware of the fact the FAI was paying back €20.5 million in debt? Was Sport Ireland informed of that at all?

Dr. Una May

As a result of the audit, we received a full breakdown of the exact details of what the funding was actually being spent on. That was through the audit, as opposed to any quarterly reporting.

Deputy James O'Connor

When would that have arrived in?

Dr. Una May

We carried out audits in 2021 and 2022 on the previous year's funding.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will ask my next questions in the second round.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank all of the witnesses for appearing this morning. I suggest it is probably a good morning for the Department and for Sport Ireland in that a lot of time is being devoted to the FAI. Hard questions should be put on the spending of large-scale sports capital infrastructure and perhaps we will not reach them because of other issues.

I welcome Mr. Ó Coigligh to his new position. If I can, I will begin with an impolite question. Which Secretary General grade is he on in the Department?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Grade 3.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That would put him on a salary of €230,780. Is that correct?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I am post-April 1995 grading. I am a bit older than that and I come under slightly different terms.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is very good. He will understand why I am asking that question.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

It is all public information.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Much as my own salary is in the public domain. There is a line in Mr. Hill's opening statement on which I want to pick him up. He stated, "MOU condition No. 35 covered the CEO's remuneration and required it to be in line with Government pay guidelines for a Secretary General." That is not quite what No. 35 of the MOU states "remuneration of the Chief Executive will be in line with government pay guidelines (i.e. no greater than the remuneration of officers in the grade of Secretary General." Is that correct?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

So it does not specify that it must be paid at that level. There is a glaring omission, which predates Mr. Ó Coigligh's time in the Department, which is that it does not specify which grade of Secretary General.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

No, it did not at the time, but in subsequent discussion with the Department it was understood that it could be up to grade 1.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is quite a difference.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I know the rates have changed with the Building Momentum increases. Currently, there is a difference of €28,045 between grade 1 and grade 3. Is that correct?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I expect so. Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The grade 1 salary is €258,825. For context, the Taoiseach gets paid €233,828, so there is €25,000 of a difference. The Taoiseach is paid €25,000 less than a grade 1 Secretary General.

I will ask about the implementation of the Building Momentum pay increases. There has been quite a shift in terms of the pay that is received by Secretaries General. How quickly was that mapped onto the pay grade of Mr. Hill? Somebody else within the FAI might want to respond. As the pay grades for the Secretaries General moved under Building Momentum, how quickly was it mapped onto Mr. Hill's salary?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It was reasonably quickly. There was a time lag in relation to one of the jumps. First, my initial negotiation in relation to the contract was framed by the association's approach and I guess the association was following MOU 35 when I was having my negotiation and I had been asked to join the association as CEO. The memorandum of understanding was not something I was aware of. Neither was I actually aware of the existence of Secretaries General. For me, that was something that was pertinent to the FAI. It might be better to ask the association about how it followed the progress of the agreed pay increases at that level.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It would not be incumbent upon Mr. Hill to try to negotiate down his salary. I just wonder about it from the FAI point of view. It seems to have regarded this as a target rather than a ceiling. It took the highest possible interpretation of commitment No. 35 in the MOU.

I will just dig down into Ms Joyce's email of 6 December 2022. Could I clarify a point with you, Chair? It is that Aoife Rafferty was invited to be here with us but she could not appear, which is a pity. I think Ms Joyce's email response is quite a good one. She really clarified the position. She said that normally it is bad practice to allow employees to cash in on holidays. She goes on to say it will be important to ensure any exceptions have clear grounds for being so and that unhelpful precedents should not be created. She suggests that Aoife would work directly with Jonathan and establish what his annual leave carryover was likely to be, clarify his request, and make a recommendation to her for approval. Roy Barrett responded to say that made sense, and thanked her. Essentially, she expressed concerns in that email that we could create a precedent by paying days in lieu.

Ms Liz Joyce

Yes, I did express concerns. I spoke to the people and culture director prior to sending the email because my concern when I saw it was that she was not involved in the email exchange, and it was a people and culture matter.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Aoife Rafferty was cc'd on that email. Is that correct?

Ms Liz Joyce

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Did Mr. Hill ever subsequently discuss the issue, as was suggested in the email? Did Aoife Rafferty ever discuss the issue with him?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Ms Rafferty carried on with her discussions with the small group of executives, Ms Joyce and Mr. Barrett in respect of an approach to the issue.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is despite a clear recommendation from Ms Joyce in this email that Ms Rafferty should consult Mr. Hill and clarify his request by taking out of the equation the confusion he raised in his earlier exchanges. Mr. Hill's contention and position is that Ms Rafferty never spoke to him in order to clarify that request and set out those grounds for exception. The first that Mr. Hill knew about the decision to make payments in lieu of holidays was when he was given the money.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No, it was right at the end of February. The money was paid in the March payment.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was this a decision that had to go to the board? To clarify my understanding, we find ourselves at a payment in lieu of 12 days' holidays. Is that correct?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there a cash figure for that? I have not seen one anyplace.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

There was.

Ms Liz Joyce

It was approximately €11,500.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It was approximately €11,500.

Ms Liz Joyce

That was the gross figure.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That was gross.

Ms Liz Joyce

It would have been subject to tax.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It would, I imagine, have been subject to income tax in the normal way.

Ms Liz Joyce

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We have no detail at all around the benefit in kind, BIK, arrangement, or this issue around BIK on certain expenses. How much did the BIK on certain expenses amount to?

Ms Liz Joyce

As I alluded to earlier, as an employer, we have confidentiality obligations. I can tell the committee that certain commuting expenses on which BIK was payable were paid by the FAI in 2022. That was taken into account in the remuneration. Unfortunately, due to a miscalculation, there was an overpayment of approximately €3,500 in 2022. The unintentional overpayment subsequently had to be reconciled. That was what happened with regard to the BIK issue.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Taking the two issues together, are we talking about a total payment of approximately €15,000?

Ms Liz Joyce

I want to be clear because there could be some confusion between what is included in remuneration and the BIK payable. The chief executive always understood there were BIK payable expenses in 2022. There was never an issue as to whether that would be paid or not but there was a timing issue as to when it was paid. It was noted in the KOSI report as needing to be paid. In the discourse between KOSI and the FAI, there was some difference in advice in terms of how it would be calculated. It took a while to reconcile but that was eventually paid as planned.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is difficult for us to tease through those issues, particularly when we got the documentation at such short notice. In its opening statement, Sport Ireland outlined that corrective actions were taken afterwards. Was repayment of the excess part of the corrective action?

Ms Liz Joyce

It was, yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That money has been recouped by the FAI. That, at the very least, is good to hear. I have some questions for the representatives of Sport Ireland. We seem to have sporting organisations before the committee more often than I would like. We have a line of sight on the departmental funding and how it comes to be with Sport Ireland. We see how it is disbursed among the national governing bodies. That is where we lose track of the money and it goes dark to us because the national governing bodies do not account to us in the same way. We have had cause to have sporting bodies before the committee more often than I would like, as I said. Is Sport Ireland happy that its level of oversight of how that money, once disbursed, is spent by national governing bodies is all it should be?

Dr. Una May

We are happy. We have a rigorous system of monitoring through audits. We have carried out 33 audits in the past couple of years. We monitor very closely the expenditure of our funding to ensure it is appropriately expended on the development of sport, which is the purpose for which we distribute funding on behalf of the Government to the governing bodies.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I wish to a focus on an issue that I brought to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts and which relates to land at Brooklodge, Glanmire, leased by Cork County Council to the FAI. I want clarification. It is 30 acres of land that has been lying idle for more than ten years. My understanding from the briefing we received is that €2 million in grant support was secured by the association. Was that €2 million drawn down?

Mr. David Courell

I wish the Deputy a good morning. I will take that question. For clarity, the actual lease of the land that was granted to the association commenced in 2017 so it has been-----

Deputy Colm Burke

It was agreed as far back as 2011.

Mr. David Courell

Potentially, but the lease only came into effect in 2017.

Deputy Colm Burke

The commitment has been there since 2011, which is over 12 years ago.

Mr. David Courell

I am afraid that predates my time. The lease came into effect in February 2017 and we were successful in securing €2 million in funding from the large-scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF, towards phase 1 development that would run to a total cost-----

Deputy Colm Burke

The question is whether that €2 million was drawn down.

Mr. David Courell

The answer is that it has not been.

Deputy Colm Burke

The €2 million has not been drawn down.

Mr. David Courell

That is correct.

Deputy Colm Burke

At the moment, the 30 acres is growing ragwort and daisies and nothing has happened with it.

Mr. David Courell

As of May 2023, the association, in light of a change in circumstances from when the original LSSIF was submitted, reviewed its status. A couple of things changed over that period.

Deputy Colm Burke

That is six years after getting the lease. Even if we take it that the FAI got the lease in 2017, it was six years later that the association started looking at it.

Mr. David Courell

The Deputy can frame it like that. We could also frame it as it being four years after we were granted any funding towards the project. In those intervening four years, the financial liabilities of the association were laid bare. It is worth noting that while we are grateful for the LSSIF support, it is a retrospective grant. If we were to have proceeded with the project, the FAI, as the primary sponsor, would have had to front up €3.8 million in cash.

Deputy Colm Burke

At the moment, there are no plans for those 30 acres.

Mr. David Courell

The decision taken by the FAI board last May was that the project as initially conceived was not going to progress. However, there is still-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Was there correspondence to the county council on the basis that there are terms in the lease of which the association is now technically in breach?

Mr. David Courell

We have been in communication with the council. There are two components to this. There is obviously-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I understand that communication with the council took place in September and not May of last year. Nothing at all happened for the six years after the association got the lease until September last year.

Mr. David Courell

I would refute that. I know the team was in constant dialogue with the council. I spoke with the council last week as well.

Deputy Colm Burke

This issue was highlighted in August. We have a growing area in Glanmire with a considerable young population who do not have access to sports facilities at a time when the association is sitting on 30 acres of land that is lying idle and growing daisies.

Mr. David Courell

All I can say is that we are progressing. Once the decision was taken not to proceed with the plan as initially conceived, we established an internal working group. That group had two primary objectives. One was to ensure the site continues to be activated for local benefit, and I will come onto that in a moment. The second objective was to continue to protect the grant that was awarded to Munster and to progress the intention of delivering a centre of excellence in a more strategic location. The Deputy has asked about the site and how it can be activated. We are grateful for the patience of the council and the community.

Deputy Colm Burke

The community is not patient. The community is concerned that there are young people who cannot get access to sports facilities in schools or sports clubs. I met 18 different sports clubs in the area, all of which are looking for facilities while the FAI is sitting on 30 acres.

Mr. David Courell

We have been moving at pace. Since we established that working group, we have been liaising with local clubs in the area and the council to ensure that as the primary leaseholder, we can put forward a solution that would see the site activated because we appreciate that Glanmire is growing at a rapid pace.

The board of the FAI has been considering a proposal that we have been working up that would see a local club benefit from a sublease of the site. It would be incumbent on it, and it has a stand-alone proposal to-----

Deputy Colm Burke

The local club is applying for planning permission on a totally different site because of what it was told. I met John Delaney down there some years ago and he told us quite clearly that the local club would not get the use of this facility. Therefore, it went off and got alternative land and there is a planning application in for it. That is on a completely different site.

Mr. David Courell

That may be the case-----

Deputy Colm Burke

So the FAI at national level was giving no support to the local club at any stage over the last ten years.

Mr. David Courell

All I can speak about is how the FAI is looking at the site and the benefit we have of the lease. It is our intention to ensure it does deliver for the local community.

Deputy Colm Burke

Would Mr. Courell not accept that FAI has land from a local authority from over ten years ago. Okay, Mr. Courell is saying the lease was only six years but it is still six years. The FAI has an obligation to work through, in a reasonably timely manner, when public land is made available for the development of sports facilities for young people in a particular area.

Mr. David Courell

I fully accept that. In this situation, as I outlined, the financial circumstances of the association prohibited us from proceeding with phase 1 but, also, we are not unique. The LISSIF award is very gratefully received in the sporting landscape, however drawdowns have been limited. At the midpoint of last year, from the 2019 awards, only around 50% of awards had been drawn down. That said, I want to reassure the Deputy that this is moving at pace and not because the FAI has been called in here and it being an agenda topic at this session. We were actively pursuing this site being activated as expediently as possible.

Deputy Colm Burke

With support for local clubs, and remember that all the people in the local club are working on a voluntary basis, they have made more progress in the last two years than the FAI has in ten years in the area. They are all working on a voluntary basis yet the FAI has a whole professional organisation where there are highly paid people and there is a 30 acre site lying idle for over ten years. It is not value for money in the sense of what the local organisation is prepared to do.

Mr. David Courell

That is understood and we are grateful for the efforts of not only the clubs in Glanmire but across the country because the growth in the game has been exponential, including in the girls game.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has there been any engagement with any organisation outside the county council on progressing this matter because there are a number of different sports organisations in the area that would use this facility?

Mr. David Courell

No, our primary objective is to ensure it delivers for the burgeoning growth of the football community in Glanmire. That said, it is an expansive site, as the Deputy said-----

Deputy Colm Burke

On the basis that the FAI does not have funding and it is unlikely to have the appropriate funding to develop 30 acres within the next three to four years, would it not be an opportunity to sit down with other organisations to see how it can be worked out together? This is public money. This is public land that has been given to the FAI. The taxpayers own it, in real terms. It is not being used by an organisation that has substantial funding from central Government.

Mr. David Courell

That is understood. I can reassure the Deputy that a proposal is going before the FAI board in the next week or ten days that would hopefully see this site activated within the timeframes the Deputy spoke about. We absolutely want to see it delivering for the community within the next one or two years. We have looked at the proposal to ensure that the club in question has the ability to stand up and commence the development of the site immediately. That is where we stand today.

Chairman

We will take a break for ten minutes.

Suspended at 11.04 a.m. and resumed at 11.15 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Devlin.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank the witnesses for appearing today. In relation to the opening statement, while I appreciate the chairman's apology, I wishfully thought that the delay was because the manager was being appointed, but there is still no white smoke on that either. Hopefully, that will be in the next little while because it has been a long time coming.

In terms of the delay with the opening statement, the witnesses referred to seeking legal advice. Either Mr. Keohane or Mr. Hill can respond to this. Was that legal advice pertaining to the employee or to current employees of the FAI? Who exactly was the legal representation for? Was it for the entity itself or for covering employees, past and present?

Mr. Tony Keohane

What we were attempting to do was provide as much information as we possibly could. We had advice for the association in terms of what we could and could not do, being respectful and being legally accountable for private information, staff information and everything else. It was around all of those. We were trying to balance that. We thought we had come to the right place, even though I accept it took us longer than it really should have.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The invitation letter issued from this committee on 1 February, 21 days ago. This seems to have run right to the nth hour.

Mr. Tony Keohane

It did. That is a fact. It took us some time.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

When did this issue arise?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I am sorry, I do not understand.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

When did the need for legal advice arise?

Mr. Tony Keohane

The legal advice was coming to us step by step as we went through and as we got to different stages, where different people - I cannot name them - agreed to have their emails released or not. Then-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Are there current employees of the FAI who sought the legal advice that caused this delay?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I do not know if they sought legal advice but they had a position that we had to respect. We sought legal advice, as an association, and perhaps Ms Guy might want to say more on that.

Ms Catherine Guy

Yes, I can help on that. I cannot remember exactly when we received the request.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It was dated 1 February.

Ms Catherine Guy

I beg your pardon. It was dated 1 February, via Sport Ireland. The request, in essence, was for internal correspondence so we went through a process of identifying the relevant internal correspondence.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I presume the line inside it said that the correspondence must be provided 24 hours in advance.

Ms Catherine Guy

I am sure it did.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It did.

Ms Catherine Guy

Again, we know that we were late, and I do not say that glibly. However, I can assure the Deputy that there was a significant body of work that needed to be done. I can confirm that the advice was to the association in respect of the association's obligations to employees and to confidential information. We did take some care to do that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I can see that, from what I can read in the emails.

Ms Catherine Guy

I totally accept that. It was anticipated that members might comment on that. We also took care to be as fulsome as we could in the opening statement by describing the process because, clearly, the request was around the processes that went through. Having previously extensively addressed the Oireachtas joint committee, which I accept is a different committee from this one, as to how the decision came to be made - if you remember, the former chair was quite expansive on all of this and kind of took that through - we took care to ensure that notwithstanding the redactions, that information was provided through the opening statement and by Mr. Hill in response to the questions.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I get that point. I thank Ms Guy.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Hill said earlier that the line in one of the emails which is less redacted than the others was a throwaway line. The line was about looking for the same arrangement sought by that employee. While you were not involved in those discussions, you did then take the payment when it was offered. Is that the case?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes, I did. I took it in good faith when it was made in March and I also repaid it in good faith on 15 November when the full extent of the situation was explained via the wider KOSI process.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

So it was on foot of the auditors' report? What was their name again?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

KOSI, K-O-S-I.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Wow. In terms of the throwaway remark, I suppose it is good thing that Mr. Hill did not ask for a private jet or something like that because it seems that whatever was asked for actually materialised. It is bizarre that an employee contacted you seeking that their holiday pay be paid to them, you forwarded that on and you asked for the same, and then it all materialised.. Is that correct?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Clearly there was a process, because the decision-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I get that you were not involved in the process.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The process went on until the end of February, so there was a full 12 weeks of discussion within the association with key executives and members of the board as to whether or not that was appropriate

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. My next point is on the MOU, in place since 2020 and the obligation to monitor financial position, internal controls and governance in the FAI. When he took up the position, Mr. Hill would be aware that with the headlines the FAI had created in Ireland recently, its reputation needed to be repaired. Obviously, between the lateness of the opening statement, this particular issue which has arisen today and a number of other things, the organisation seems to be going from bad to worse. I accept that some great work is being done by clubs across the country. Mr. Califf and others have said that progress is being made. This is true but the organisation's reputation does not need any more bad headlines. Would Mr. Hill agree?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I would contend the Deputy's position. I think it is absolutely clear that the organisation has not gone from bad to worse, from the position I inherited in late 2019 and when I came on board in 2020.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is in a better position financially.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes, financially it is in a much better position. That is important to say in relation to commercial performance, which also links back to the issue of how debt has been repaid. For example, we have taken sponsorship revenues from around €4 million up to a projected €10 million this year. We have also done a huge amount of work on what the Deputy is speaking to - how the brand of Irish football is positioned. For example-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Hill must appreciate though that the FAI should be more focused on the game itself, rather than being in the headlines itself. Is that not true?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes, I accept that and I think one of-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Today does not help that position. Is that not correct?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

For the first two and a half of those three years we had gone off the front pages and were filling the back pages of newspapers with things like League of Ireland attendances going up and the FAI cup final having record attendances.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

You are back on the front pages now though. That is the problem

Mr. Jonathan Hill

To the Deputy's general point, I would point out that, as has been said publicly by the Department and Sport Ireland, we have delivered against 159 of 163 governance recommendations. It probably means that we are the most regulated and governed of any of the national governing bodies and I would like to-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There is good reason for that.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I would like to think that we are moving forward because of that. We must remember that the MOU has now ceased and is no longer in place. However, we will continue to work to all of those recommendations, because they are good. Some of them were replicated, but broadly speaking, it meant that we had to focus on process, be it financial or be it governance.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

They were required.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I suggest that on the Deputy's original point, we have done a very good job in relation to it. The whole team in the FAI - not just the people at grassroots level running clubs - have contributed to that development. It is really important to state that the FAI staff who came out of the process in 2019 did not know about anything about what was happening with the FAI's finances. People in this room did not know exactly what was happening either. It is a real testimony to them as individuals that they have gone about their jobs in the way they have and I would like to recognise that contribution.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I think a number of those individuals are also not happy about what has transpired here today regarding the delay and everything else we spoke about.

Dr. May, I want to get clarity on some points. The MOU contained a number of key requirements for Sport Ireland and the FAI to fulfil. Yes, the MOU may have ceased but I want to make sure that a number of elements materialised. One requirement was that Sport Ireland would be provided with the quarterly financial reports from the association. Did that happen? Did the rolling three-year financial strategy happen? Were the income and expenditure budget, the annual cash flow forecast and the annual capital budget all adhered to?

This question is for Mr. Keohane. The FAI's governance manual is approved by the board following an annual review. Is that happening every year?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, it is happening every year and will be coming to the board again in the near future.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is there a set time every year for the board to look at it, or does it depend on other factors?

Mr. Tony Keohane

At the moment we are in the process of developing a board work plan so it will be included in that. I do not want to keep harping back to the fact that I have just taken up the position, but that is a fact. As part of the memorandum of understanding, we have now taken on, as part of the MOU suggestion, a new company secretary. With the company secretary now in place we will work up a proper board plan which will guide us on things we need to do as well as the stuff that can be planned for a more gradual basis

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay, my final question is for the chairperson. Is the comprehensive annual report to Sport Ireland on internal controls being adhered to?

Dr. Una May

Yes, it is.

Deputy John Brady

Good morning to the witnesses. I want to touch on the issue of boycotts, which has received considerable attention over the past while. A decision was taken in 2022 to boycott games or sports events against Russia and Belarus. A subsequent decision was taken by UEFA in September 2023 to lift the ban for underage soccer. I note that the FAI issued a statement on the decision. What is the view of the FAI on lifting of the ban by UEFA for underage games?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

To clarify, the sanction against Russia and Belarus came from UEFA and is still in place. There was discussion on the lifting of the ban for underage teams. In fairness to UEFA, all of the federations were asked for their view on this. We discussed this at board level and decided we were not necessarily comfortable with it and made our point.

Deputy John Brady

Why was the board not comfortable with the decision to lift the ban?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Because we agreed with the original decision taken by UEFA on Russia and Belarus. We did not feel it was right to differentiate between underage and senior teams.

Deputy John Brady

Essentially, a political decision was taken based on the breach of international law with the illegal invasion by Russia of Ukraine.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It was not our political decision. The decision was taken by UEFA, which is the governing body-----

Deputy John Brady

But the FAI essentially agreed with that decision.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes, as did the vast majority of all federations in Europe across UEFA.

Deputy John Brady

The illegal invasion by Russia of Ukraine was and still is appalling and must be condemned, so a decision was taken in that regard. In tomorrow’s game, Ireland’s under-17s women’s team will play Israel in Albania. What is the view on that game going ahead?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The fundamental difference in the two situations is that UEFA, as the governing body, has not taken any position or applied a sanction in respect of Israel. We are following the advice of UEFA and talking to the Government accordingly. The board has taken a position on that, and I am happy to let Mr. Cooke, as president, address the issue, if he so wishes.

Mr. Paul Cooke

To follow on from Mr. Hill’s point, we have been consistent. UEFA is allowing games against Israel. We are a member of UEFA and we abide by its rules and regulations. We support-----

Deputy John Brady

UEFA decided last September to reverse the ban, but the FAI said that it wanted to maintain the position, such was the seriousness of the breach of international law by Russia. UEFA took a decision on reversing the ban and the FAI took a decision outside of that, so the FAI went out on its own. Is there a level of hypocrisy in the FAI’s position? It has rightly taken a stand on Russia and Belarus but has not taken a stand on Israel’s breach of international law.

Mr. Paul Cooke

We are being consistent. We are abiding by our governing body’s rules.

Deputy John Brady

The FAI is being consistent.

Mr. Paul Cooke

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

The FAI does not believe that Israel, which has butchered 30,000 men, women and children and breached international law, falls into the same category as the breach of international law by Russia.

Mr. Paul Cooke

On a personal and human level, we are appalled by what is happening and we obviously do not condone it, but we are an affiliate of UEFA.

Deputy John Brady

Is the decision by UEFA not to treat the two issues in a similar fashion wrong?

Mr. Paul Cooke

That is a matter for UEFA.

Deputy John Brady

I am asking the FAI.

Mr. Paul Cooke

As with everything, people should be consistent in their views. It is a UEFA decision-----

Deputy John Brady

Has the FAI contacted UEFA or FIFA and recommended that a similar approach to the one taken to Russia be taken now and that games against Israel should not be played and should instead be boycotted?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

We had a conversation with UEFA about the playing of the game and we have an ongoing discussion with UEFA and the Government about our duty to our players.

Deputy John Brady

Was any decision taken by the board to put forward the argument to UEFA or FIFA that these games should not go ahead?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

A wider discussion is taking place within UEFA and its federations. It was discussed at a recent meeting of UEFA and the federations. It is a wider discussion rather than an individual one from us.

Deputy John Brady

So, no recommendations have gone from the FAI.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No.

Deputy John Brady

There is a level of hypocrisy in supporting a boycott of Russia but being happy to play against Israel, which, as we sit here, continues to destroy Gaza and kill men, women and children. The FAI has not voiced any concerns to either of the bodies.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The president has just spoken to that.

Deputy John Brady

There has been some talk of a solidarity match being held between Ireland and Palestine. Is that something with which the FAI agrees?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

We have had an approach on that. There has been an email exchange about the difficulties involved in the possibility of that at national team level in terms of the strict international windows that are in place. That has been accepted and the conversation has now moved to whether something could be hosted via a League of Ireland game. Those discussions are ongoing.

Deputy John Brady

A League of Ireland game.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

When does Mr. Hill expect that might progress?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Those discussions are ongoing. There are no dates and no decisions have been taken, but the League of Ireland department is examining the logistics involved.

Deputy John Brady

Will Sport Ireland talk us through the process of the boycott decision? Did it come from the Government or did Sport Ireland decide for itself to boycott certain sporting events as well as athletes from Belarus and Russia?

Dr. Una May

As a State agency, Sport Ireland has always taken the views of the Government. These are global political issues and matters for the Government. We take our guidance from the Minister. The Department would probably advise as to the Minister’s position on this. Regarding specific sports, the individual national governing bodies are members of their respective international federations and are bound by the rules of those. That is our position – we take the Minister’s guidance on these matters. Regarding Russia, there was specific guidance from the Minister about not participating in events.

Deputy John Brady

The recent basketball match with Israel received considerable focus. It should not have gone ahead. In 2022, Basketball Ireland’s CEO stated that Basketball Ireland "would not fulfil its Women's EuroBasket 2023 qualifier against Belarus ... due to their support of Russia and the ongoing war in Ukraine" and “Our stance was supported by ... Sport Ireland”. Is Dr. May aware of that statement?

Dr. Una May

Regarding Russia and Ukraine, the Minister made a clear statement and joined with all other European ministers to declare a position against Russia. That is the position that we have upheld. We have encouraged and supported all of our governing bodies to stand to that position.

Regarding Israel, there has not been a unanimous or majority suggestion in the same way as we had for Russia, where we saw a consistent approach across the board. Our Minister took the views of all the other European ministers and, together, they signed a guidance note to all sports asking them to not take part in events in those circumstances.

Deputy John Brady

Just two weeks ago, Mr. Feehan stated: “ ... quite frankly, we don’t believe this would make a blind bit of difference. What it will do is destroy our women’s international game for the next ten years.” There seems to be a large amount of hypocrisy in the positions being adopted. While the Government provided some guidelines in respect of Russia, and rightly so, it has been found wanting on this issue. This has caused significant concern. Last year, our boxers could not fulfil some of their fights.

An Cathaoirleach

Time is up, Deputy.

Deputy John Brady

There are double standards within Sport Ireland and the FAI in the approaches they are taking. That is regrettable.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us ask Mr. Ó Coigligh for clarity. Has any guidance come from the Government on the matter of Israel and Palestine? It is a Government policy issue, but it has been discussed at this meeting.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I am slightly uncomfortable dealing with this issue at this committee and in the context of the topics before it, but the Minister has made it clear that it is a matter for individual sporting governing bodies to make decisions.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a different approach than was taken to the Russia-Ukraine situation. I thank Mr. Ó Coigligh for clarifying.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome the witnesses and wish the president of the FAI, Mr. Cooke, and its new independent chair, Mr. Keohane, the very best of luck.

My first question is to Mr. Keohane. Did he spearhead the internal investigation or was there an internal investigation with regard to the pertinent details of Mr. Hill's undisclosed holiday payment? Is that something he has subsequently investigated?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I did not spearhead an investigation. There was no investigation, as the Deputy put it. What happened is that I sought clarification around the emails. I read myself into the brief as much as I possibly could. Before we came before this committee, I ensured that, as much as we possibly could, we had all the emails that were available. That took a bit of time, as I said earlier when I apologised for this delay. It meant contacting a number of people with the help of colleagues around the table and then allowing people time to respond on the basis of their advice. To be clear, it was not an investigation. It was a gathering of information.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay. On the previous meeting of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on sport, does Mr. Keohane accept that Mr. Hill delivered an accurate account with regard to the details he presented back in December?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I think what Mr. Hill has said today brings further clarity on what was said at the joint Oireachtas committee, and I am pleased with that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It brings further clarity. Does Mr. Keohane accept that in one sense Mr. Hill could have misled the Dáil and should now correct it?

Mr. Tony Keohane

No, I am not saying there was any misleading. What I am saying is that there was further clarity given in the way the statement was outlined today.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Essentially, back in December, Mr. Hill denied ever requesting the payments and he sought to quote the former CFO, stating, "Jonathan requesting to be paid out of unused holidays." We have the evidence here today with regard to what the former CFO has said. This email also includes a caveat warning: "Our normal policy is not to. It is use them or lose them." That is substantially different from what we heard on 13 December last. Does Mr. Keohane agree that this request was driven by Mr. Hill? It was against the standard FAI employee rulebook that Mr. Hill and Mr. Roy Barrett signed off on. Does Mr. Keohane feel this is a poor level of leadership that has left Mr. Hill answering further questions and clarifying his position here today?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes. I think I said it earlier. It is definitely a slip-up.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It is more than a slip-up because-----

Mr. Tony Keohane

It has regrettably, in my view, taken the spotlight away from the good work the organisation has done. I spent my time since I joined, which was after the joint committee meeting, focusing on the organisation going forward. I spent my time focusing on making sure we had the relevant and right information to present to the committee today. That has been my focus. Rather than going back over what might have happened on the past, I am focused on the future.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Despite the legal approval, which Mr. Keohane outlined previously, why are the HR director of people and culture, Aoife Rafferty, and the former CFO, Alex O'Connell, not present today?

Mr. Tony Keohane

As a board, we decided the best account we could give of everything could be done by the team here today.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Ms Rafferty and Mr. O'Connell were asked by the committee and invited to attend. Why did the board feel they should not come before us?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We felt that the board should show leadership, answer the questions and clarify any situation that needed to be clarified. That is best done by the people around the table here today, including me, the president, the chairs of two of our important committees, Catherine Guy and Liz Joyce.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Keohane can understand that they are central to these emails. These are crucial witnesses who, in one sense, outlined their concerns with regard to this request. In another sense, it shows us the board's misjudgment in not having them here. Certainly, committee members want to question them on this.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I do not agree with that. I do not think it is misjudgment. It is proper that the board is here to answer the questions that the committee is rightly putting to us. I do not think that is misjudgment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Keohane would not find it questionable.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I talked about the clarification we have given in the opening statement, and when one adds to that the fact that we have done everything we possibly can within the limitations of our legal advice to provide the committee with the emails we provided, albeit late, I hope the Deputy will see that we have demonstrated our willingness to be as open and transparent as possible. I do not accept that there was a misjudgment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Keohane does not find it questionable that we should ask why key witnesses are not present?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Obviously, the Deputy is entitled to ask the question but I ask him to accept our position that we thought this was the best team to answer the questions members might have.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Keohane accept that the ongoing debacle is causing huge reputational damage to the FAI?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Again, it is very regrettable that we are in this situation. As I said, it is taking the spotlight away from the great work the organisation has done. We are going to have to work really hard and I will be doing everything I possibly can-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Keohane feel it is causing reputational damage?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, I do. There is no question.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does he still feel that Mr. Hill's position is tenable?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I think Mr. Hill and the leadership team are the right people to take this organisation forward. As a board, we will, as I said, be focusing on the learnings that will come from all of this. With regard to the governance improvements that have been made over the last while, with 158 of the 160-odd recommendations implemented, it is not going to stop there. We will continue to focus on governance improvements. I answered a question earlier around the plan for the board going forward. We will have a proper board programme now that we have a proper company secretary in place. This is the beginning of the next phase of the FAI. To be clear, I regret the fact that the focus has been taken away from the good work that has been done. This slip-up should not have happened.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It was more than a slip-up.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We will make sure it does not happen again.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Keohane described it as a "slip-up". I think it is more than a slip-up.

I thank Mr. Hill for joining us again. On 13 December, I requested emails from the FAI. That was 70 days ago today. We received redacted emails in response. That is certainly a lot different from what was requested. The Oireachtas insists on complete transparency regarding the emails and the incident at hand. This has certainly impacted proceedings. How does Mr. Hill find it credible in his fabricated narrative-----

An Cathaoirleach

Just be careful with your language, Deputy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----that he did not request payment for unused holidays? Can Mr. Hill, again, clarify his position please?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

First, the issue regarding the redaction of the emails has, I think, been explained both by the chair and Ms Guy in the context of the legal advice the association received. Obviously, I have tried my best in the opening statement, and then in putting my words to that opening statement, to try to give the committee more of an explanation of where I have come from. I am here, and I have been open with the Deputy, who clearly has a different interpretation of the issue. I think I have been as open as I can be regarding the flow of emails.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Hill, did you mislead the Oireachtas-----

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Absolutely not.

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----when you asserted that you did not personally request special treatment?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No, and I think I have explained that today. I can actually now explain it better in the context of the email interchange that I referred to in the joint Oireachtas committee. I have now given more colour to it. I accept that it is difficult because the email was redacted-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Hill agree that evidence from the former CFO suggests otherwise? I will read it out.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The Deputy has seen the interchange from the former finance director with the chair, and the other people I referenced in relation to this, and the fact that interchange happens without my involvement. I explained what happened in that first email that was sent by the junior employee.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Hill agree there were no exceptional circumstances here?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No. That is exactly what the association decided. It was very clearly explained by the former chair, Roy Barrett, at the joint Oireachtas committee meeting. That was the association's view of the circumstances. That is what it decided, not what I decided, and what it based its decision on.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Let me state what Mr. Barrett said at the joint Oireachtas committee meeting, "Would I make the same decision today after all that has happened? No ... I made [the decision] in good faith ... I was never trying to hide anything. A recommendation came to me ... [I thought] I had the authority [for that] ... decision". Ultimately, the request came from Mr. Hill. It went to the CFO and subsequently went up the chain for decision-making. The secret payment itself was concealed among four individuals. It never went for board approval.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has gone over time. I will ask Mr. Hill to respond.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We are looking for further clarification on this. Certainly, Mr. Hill's explanation today is, again, not credible.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

First of all, there was no secret payment. The payment was agreed between senior people within the association and they went through due process so to do. Mr. Barrett also said very clearly to the joint committee on the day, "The relevant executive came to me with a proposal outlining there were exceptional circumstances in this situation relating to Mr. Hill. There were truly exceptional circumstances in terms of ... inability to take holidays during 2022." That was his position, that was the association's position, and that was how the decision was taken.

An Cathaoirleach

The committee's request for the emails went through Sport Ireland. Has Dr. May had sight of the contents of those emails?

Dr. Una May

We received the emails at the same time the committee did. The decision was reached that because it was so late they be shared simultaneously to the committee and us.

An Cathaoirleach

Has Dr. May seen the unredacted versions of the emails?

Dr. Una May

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Dr. May happy about what has transpired here this morning?

Dr. Una May

Can I clarify? Happy in what way?

An Cathaoirleach

In terms of the committee receiving emails that are completely redacted. Dr. May is telling me that is what she has seen. Sport Ireland is the body that oversees the FAI. There is an MOU that has to implemented in full, but Sport Ireland is receiving that kind of information. I am not happy with it as Chair. As head of Sport Ireland, is Dr. May happy with it? Can I clarify, is that what it has received?

Dr. Una May

That is what we received.

An Cathaoirleach

I am asking a direct question. Is Dr. May happy with that?

Dr. Una May

I believe that Sport Ireland has delivered on its commitment, which was to monitor the implementation of the MOU. In addition to that, we sought and received the request-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am specifically asking about these emails, which go to the heart of this issue. The contents of those emails show exactly what happened, based on what has gone on here this morning. I am asking a very direct and specific question. Is Dr. May happy with that type of information being given to Sport Ireland?

Dr. Una May

My point is that it is not really for me to be happy or unhappy. We sought the emails from the FAI. We have no authority to compel it to provide these emails.

An Cathaoirleach

Dr. May is the CEO of Sport Ireland, which is funded by the taxpayer. I am asking her whether she is satisfied with the FAI response, yes or no.

Dr. Una May

As I said, we do not have the authority to compel anybody to provide us with the information. We received the information. It was less than complete. It was redacted. I understand that there were legal reasons for that redaction. I received the emails at the same time as the committee, very late last night, so we were-----

An Cathaoirleach

Would partial redaction not have been enough in this case? We often see documents-----

Dr. Una May

In the circumstances and the timeframe in which we received this, we have not been able to have a lengthy discussion around the legalities behind this but-----

An Cathaoirleach

Will Sport Ireland follow up on this, after what has been revealed today?

Dr. Una May

We would be very happy to follow up for further information, if that is requested.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not whether you are happy. Will Sport Ireland follow up on this with the FAI?

Dr. Una May

From Sport Ireland's point of view, I believe we have the information that we were asked to provide insofar as the FAI felt it was appropriate, and insofar as our authority, authorisation and jurisdiction in compelling anyone to provide that level of detail goes. Our responsibility was around the memorandum of understanding. We complied with the requirements around the monitoring of the MOU.

An Cathaoirleach

As a State body with a role in oversight and responsibility, I ask Sport Ireland to follow up on that.

Dr. Una May

I do not believe that Sport Ireland has the authority to have that level of scrutiny and oversight of individual, independent, internal communications and correspondence within an autonomous body.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Sport Ireland to examine that to see how far it can push that. I will move on from that matter. How much is Mr. Hill's salary?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It is at the level of a Secretary General level 1, which is €258,000.

An Cathaoirleach

That is grade 1, which is the highest grade for a civil servant. On the process of getting to that, did Mr. Hill come in at that level? Did he come in at grade 1?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I came in in November 2020 at grade 1, when the salary was €211,000.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Hill came in at grade 1.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I came in as the CEO of the FAI. That is what the FAI told me it could pay me. Genuinely, the whole issue of Secretary General's pay, or grade 1, was never discussed in the negotiations. It was not something with which I was familiar.

An Cathaoirleach

Was Mr. Hill aware that it was benchmarked with grade 1, at that point?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

When I did the negotiation, I was not aware of any grade 1 or grade 3 issue in relation to Secretary General. As I said, I was not even aware of the existence of Secretary Generals. My role was to come in as the CEO of the FAI and to do the job of bringing the FAI back to a better place.

An Cathaoirleach

Over and above that, are there additional sums of money Mr. Hill receives in allowances, expenses, etc?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

As we talked about earlier, there are. They are part of the package negotiated at the time.

An Cathaoirleach

What does Mr. Hill receive in allowances?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

As I said, I think that is confidential information.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Hill receive an allowance for travelling back and forward from England? He does not. Does he receive a portion of any sponsorship money?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I do not, no.

An Cathaoirleach

As a matter of interest, on Mr. Hill's working week as CEO, how many days a week does he spend in Ireland?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It depends on whatever is happening on any given week. There is obviously a lot of-----

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that. What is the average?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

-----travel that takes place in relation to both UEFA and FIFA business, and all our international teams, both senior and underage teams. There is no fixed approach to it but I try to be in the office four days a week.

An Cathaoirleach

There are some outstanding issues relating to the 2020 MOU, including recommendations that have not been implemented yet. I will ask Mr. Keohane about that, as head of the board. How many recommendations are outstanding at present?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I will ask Mr. Courell to respond, if the Chair does not mind.

Mr. David Courell

There are currently four actionable MOU items that remain outstanding.

An Cathaoirleach

What are they?

Mr. David Courell

As outlined in the report, there are a couple that were timebound and have elapsed, generally relating to gender balance. Of the four that are actionable, there is, first and foremost, the finance transformation plan. To demonstrate the scale of change programme we have undergone, this is one of the 163 items but it actually breaks out into 197 sub-items.

An Cathaoirleach

There are four in total out of the 160.

Mr. David Courell

Yes. Does the Chair want me to list them out?

An Cathaoirleach

Keep going. That is all right.

Mr. David Courell

The finance transformation plan has 197 sub-items. We are at about 189 of those. We still have some final closing to go but there has been huge progress. Again, it is not just 163 items. There is a multiplying effect that shows the scale of change we have undergone.

We then have procurement. One of the findings was to ensure we instil a procurement practice within the association. We have done that. However, in the past year, we have revised our procurement policy. We have completed phase 1 on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am watching the time. What are the headlines for the other three?

Mr. David Courell

The other one would be MOU No. 29 which is outstanding liabilities. It relates to ensuring we pay our debts in full on time, which we have been doing consistently over the last number of years. We submitted our ledger to Sport Ireland in December. We are still awaiting final feedback on that. The last one is around travel and expenses policy. There is one minor amendment that we needed to reflect in our travel and expenses, T and E, policy which we are more than happy to do but the reality is that at the end of the year we are carrying out a more holistic review of our wider travel and expenses policy anyway. We explained that to Sport Ireland and advised that will follow in the first quarter of this year.

An Cathaoirleach

Will that policy be consistent across the board for staff at different levels?

Mr. David Courell

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

As it stands or it will be? Which is it?

Mr. David Courell

It is T and E policy across the association.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Thank you. I now turn to Mr. Hill. On the suspension of funding, when did you and the chair become aware of that? Can you remember?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That was connected to the KOSI report. I think I became aware of that in relation to the 2023 sport grant funding in July.

An Cathaoirleach

In July of 20-----?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

2023.

An Cathaoirleach

And when did he inform the board? When was the board as a whole made aware of it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Mr. Courell may wish to speak on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Maybe Ms Joyce would like to come in on that? When was the board made aware that the funding was suspended?

Ms Liz Joyce

In respect of the €500,000 or subsequently?

An Cathaoirleach

Subsequently.

Ms Liz Joyce

I think it was 1 November.

An Cathaoirleach

Of 2023. Okay. Thank you. On the FAI's current financial situation, what is its level of debt?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It is a little under €43 million.

An Cathaoirleach

Within a million will do. It is just to get a picture. There is a Bank of Ireland loan of €24 million. There is slightly over €7.5 million over three years from Sport Ireland. Then there is the UEFA one. Is the FAI relying a lot on borrowed money?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

On the FAI's overall financial situation, yes, to the degree that we have the loans we have in place with the Bank of Ireland. But they have been structured in such a way that we can take a sensible approach to the repayment of those loans and the interest on them. All of that is baked into our projections for 2024 and beyond. I mentioned-----

An Cathaoirleach

To drill into that a bit and the €43 million debt. Mr. Hill mentioned the annual revenue. Will he recap on the income per annum?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

This year was €58 million. It will vacillate between €58 million and €60 million.

An Cathaoirleach

What about cash on hand at the moment?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

One of the challenges of-----

An Cathaoirleach

What is the figure?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Mr. McCormack, the finance director, will know about cash. One of the challenges we have on an ongoing basis is cash. Not only does cash get sucked out of the business in relation to the repayment of that debt which, the Chair will remember, came from all the mismanagement in 2019 and before-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry. There are monthly reports to the board meetings, I presume. And on a weekly basis the management team will be watching this, so generally it will have to watch what is going in and what is going out and where the association stands in what it has on hand at the moment. What is it at the moment, Mr. McCormack?

Mr. Dan McCormack

It is low single digit millions. But obviously it is cash, so it is volatile and moves up and down depending on which point of the month.

An Cathaoirleach

How much?

Mr. Dan McCormack

Low single-digit millions.

An Cathaoirleach

Low single-figures.

Mr. Dan McCormack

Low single-digit millions.

An Cathaoirleach

Millions. Okay. Roughly, is it €1 million or €9 million?

Mr. Dan McCormack

It moves around because obviously at some points of the month-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is it closer to €1 million than €9 million?

Mr. Dan McCormack

More often than not, it is closer to €1 million than €9 million but it is cash; it is lumpy and it does move around quite a bit. It is volatile.

An Cathaoirleach

So it is teetering along in a fairly tricky situation.

Mr. Dan McCormack

We have access to further facilities should we need them.

An Cathaoirleach

Further facilities means further borrowing normally.

Mr. Dan McCormack

Further borrowing, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

In the financial world, that the speech that is used.

Mr. Dan McCormack

That is correct, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Facilities are loans.

Mr. Dan McCormack

Yes, there are further facilities that are available to us.

An Cathaoirleach

What interest rate is the association borrowing at?

Mr. Dan McCormack

I am not sure I can disclose that but it is nothing too unusual. It is commercially sensitive, I think. I am not sure I can provide that.

An Cathaoirleach

But day to day, the FAI has about €1 million or so to keep it going along.

Mr. Dan McCormack

No, it is usually more than a million. It just moves around because-----

An Cathaoirleach

But it is in the low single digits?

Mr. Dan McCormack

It is in millions but it just moves around, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I will bring in members for a second round of questions. We will go with five minutes each first and see how we go. Deputy McAuliffe is first.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I like the phrase "low single-digit millions". I think it was used correctly but it is an unusual phrase.

I note the contrasts between those two conversations. The overall amounts on the payments of holidays are very small in the big scheme of the vast majority of the work. I want to accept that. To some extent, Mr. Hill is in a difficult position because the issue of CEO salary is not necessarily of his making and there is sensitivity around that but it comes from the legacy of the sensitivity around that issue. That is why members are so focused on it as an issue. Specifically in this committee, we try to identify where systems fail to allow individuals to gain. Individuals will always try to gain additional income, opportunities and so on and it is the systems that should check against that. If a situation is allowed to happen where employees can cash in rest leave that they are entitled to, then there is an incentive, if they were to take no holidays during the year and cash them in during the year, to give themselves an additional 8% pay increase. That is why the issue of holidays is so important. It is because it is effectively an additional salary. It is not additional holidays, it is additional salary, to a person. That is why I think we focused a lot on it. I wanted to say that to explain it. I think Ms Joyce referred to that in the email correspondence. She spoke about an exceptional nature. Two employees have been referred to here around holiday pay that was exchanged. Are there any other FAI employees who received pay or compensation in lieu of holidays?

Ms Liz Joyce

Not as far as I am aware.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So it is not the norm.

Ms Liz Joyce

No.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There are not employees across the board who are receiving this. Ms Joyce may not be aware of the specific reference but Schedule 6 to the Organisation of Working Time Act, which refers to the directive, specifically states "The minimum period of paid annual leave may not be replaced by an allowance in lieu, except where the employment relationship is terminated." Would Ms Joyce be willing to reflect again on what happened here and accept it was a breach of the legal framework?

Ms Liz Joyce

I accept that is the Deputy's position on the working time Act provision but that relates to statutory leave. The normal leave for a Secretary General, which is the guiding principle here, is 30 days. So there is leave available in excess of the statutory. So clearly-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So the days reimbursed were above the 20 days of minimum rest?

Ms Liz Joyce

I am going to assume there were also carry-overs from a previous year.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay. I would love to probe that more but I would ask if the FAI would focus on that issue internally and that an individual always take an opportunity for leave. It is for the systems to respond to it. On this occasion the systems and controls did not respond. Whoever's responsibility it was is a matter for the committee but the systems did not respond.

There is a commitment to provide Sport Ireland with details of remuneration. There is also a commitment to provide quarterly financial reports. Is Dr. May confident that additional payment did not appear in documents that went unnoticed?

Dr. Una May

The information that Sport Ireland receives covers bands of payment. Therefore it would be quite difficult to identify a small increase or decrease within a band. So yes, I would be comfortable that we received the appropriate information.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So Sport Ireland or the Department were not in a position to know that an additional payment beyond the approved Secretary General rate had been made.

Dr. Una May

It was as a result of an audit carried out on behalf of Sport Ireland that this anomaly was identified in the first place, yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In regard to some more positive aspects, the Europa League final at the Aviva Stadium this year will be a great opportunity, as it was on the previous occasion, and I hope it is carried out well. There will be a performance fee from UEFA as part of that. What might that be and where might it go to fund the organisation?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It is around €2 million and has been baked into our projections and budget for 2024.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It will not be unused, therefore. The costs of hosting the final fall heavily on, for example, local providers, such as local authorities, councils and so on. The local authority has worked hard on projects such as Dalymount stadium, which has a significant gap in overall funding, although the large-scale sports capital grant will, I hope, address some of that. Would the FAI consider allocating that performance fee or an element of it to a project like Dalymount stadium?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

To be honest, that has already happened as part of the negotiated position with UEFA that included the Europa League final decision. That was all connected back to our inability to host those matches in Euro 2020. As part of that negotiation with UEFA, a sum was paid directly to the Dalymount project.

Mr. Dan McCormack

On a point of clarification, while Mr. Hill was accurate in referencing a figure of €2 million relating to the delivery of the Europa League final, the benefit to the association is not on that scale. That is-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The question related to the performance bonus as a result hosting the event.

Mr. Dan McCormack

It is a percentage of that €2 million. It is not the total sum.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Could Mr. McCormack give us an exact figure?

Mr. Dan McCormack

It is, unfortunately, commercially sensitive. It relates to the effective delivery of the tournament and so on. There are two components to it, the rental fee of the Aviva Stadium and the effective delivery of the tournament.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Dr. May wrote to Roy Barrett on 19 September of last year stating Sport Ireland was further concerned that the FAI's failure to accurately disclose the remuneration for the FAI CEO for 2022 could damage trust and undermine confidence in the FAI and the broader reform process. I think she was absolutely right in making that point. She also referred to the withholding of funding until she was satisfied that had been resolved. There is a kind of similarity between some of those issues of trust and what we have been dealing with at RTÉ, for example. We have had its representatives appear before us on a couple of occasions regarding something of the same order regarding trust and the disclosure of information, and it does undermine trust. Has Sport Ireland written similar letters to other organisations in recent years and withheld funding because of this kind of thing, or is this more specifically the case with the FAI than it has been with other sporting organisations?

Dr. Una May

There are other organisations that have experienced difficulties with governance over the years, and Sport Ireland would generally withhold funding only if it reaches a difficult situation where we feel there is a necessity to have that additional stick, as in the carrot and stick approach. It does occasionally happen, but not very often. We tend to avoid it. The FAI situation was particularly bad and we had a significant role to play in the monitoring of the memorandum of understanding, MOU, between the FAI and the Government.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We have heard from others that there has been a loss of confidence. I recall being a member of the sports committee in 2019 when the previous board, committee and so on appeared before us, and I know that Mr. Cooke took over at a difficult time after that. One thing we wanted to see was the building of confidence in order that we could have confidence in regard to funding going into an organisation that has such a huge level of participation. Does that ongoing oversight require anything more at this point?

Dr. Una May

The MOU was up to the period that concluded in December 2023. Our understanding, however, is that the Government is in negotiations with the FAI as to whether there is a requirement for a further MOU in respect of whether additional funds are being sought by the FAI, but that is a matter for the Government and the Minister. From Sport Ireland's point of view, we will continue to monitor the performance in the same way as we do with all our governing bodies, which involves regular auditing, regular oversight and regular liaison and correspondence.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There was considerable embarrassment at the time throughout the footballing family, if we can use that term. In recent times, the FAI has been back on the front pages. There must be a morale issue within the organisation, with people thinking "Here we go again" and wondering whether they can really have confidence. Is Mr. Cooke satisfied all this has been left behind us? He picked up the pieces straight afterwards and would not have expected a problem to emerge so soon.

Mr. Paul Cooke

I certainly did not expect to be sitting here. Yes, I would be confident we are in a better place. We have various structures-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We know we are in a better place.

Mr. Paul Cooke

Yes, but we have moved on, and going forward, we will be better. We have various committees now that are stronger, with very strong independent voices that bring questions and queries to the table, so yes, I would be really strong on that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I was intrigued by the possibility, irrespective of who it relates to, that there could be cash payments in lieu of pensions, given we have moved to auto-enrolment and so on. Is the Department satisfied that is be a satisfactory approach to a pension issue?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I think the term "cash payments" sounds like it might be referring to money in envelopes and I am not sure whether that is-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am not suggesting that at all. I am saying the person is not required to be involved in a pension scheme but could receive cash in lieu. The whole idea of auto-enrolment is to make sure there will be pensions into the future.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I think that is a wider issue the Government is grappling with at a strategic level in terms of auto-enrolment, and I am not sure the Government itself is quite there yet. I am sure it would be good practice but in terms of the overall approach to auto-enrolment across the economy, I think that is what the Government is trying to do.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did the FAI hire anyone from a communications agency or legal people for advice in advance of this meeting?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I will let the guys answer that. We use a communications agency across a whole range of issues.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am not talking about a whole range of issues. I am talking about this meeting today.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

This is one of the issues they have looked at, yes.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We took advice from our legal supplier, if that is the right term.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Legal advice but not communications advice.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We took legal advice, particularly around the release of emails, as I said already, to make sure we were not causing any difficulties for our employees or ex-employees, which enabled us to release the emails in the way we did, and I again apologise that that was late.

We also took advice in preparation for this-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The FAI paid for advice.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We have an ongoing arrangement with the provider that covers a whole range of issues. It would not have been a particular payment for this meeting.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Hill has told us about his pay arrangements relating to the Secretary General level. Is there anything over and above that or is that the absolute upper cap? Am I correct in stating there is no other payment in addition to that?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The Secretary General level was the base against which my contract was negotiated in September 2020.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The one thing we do not want is to find out after the meeting that there is something else, so it is better for me to ask the question here.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I refer back to the late delivery of stuff to the committee. I was making sure we had looked at everything, thrown an eye over everything, and made sure we were solid with regard to what we were bringing to the committee today. I was just repeating myself really.

Deputy James O'Connor

The chief executive is obviously the subject of the redacted emails. That is the correspondence we received this morning, which was delivered late.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Not exclusively, no. Some of the redactions related to, as we spoke about earlier, the junior employee and some other elements.

Deputy James O'Connor

Would Mr. Hill be comfortable releasing that correspondence if he felt it put this matter to bed?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I think the chair and Ms Catherine Guy explained why, from a legal perspective, that would not be appropriate.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is there something of concern pertaining to Mr. Hill contained in it?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

As I say-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Are we expected to buy the pretence that it is to do with a junior employee, which I do not accept?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The combination of the opening statement and the quite detailed explanation I gave the committee about the emails, because we could not do it without the redaction, is, I think, a fair attempt by me to give the committee the information it is looking for.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is just a bit suspect. Mr. Hill has known for some time he would be coming before the committee. I believe the request was made at the end of November. We did not receive the documentation until this morning. Am I right in saying the witnesses were meeting last night until about 12.30 a.m.? Was around midnight roughly the time the meeting completed?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Around that, yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

It was around midnight the day before the witnesses were supposed to appear here. Why did the meeting go on so long?

Mr. Tony Keohane

As I said earlier, we were seeking to make sure we were absolutely right with the legal advice we were getting and in our desire to release the emails to the committee in the way we have now done.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is quite extraordinary that there is a failure to express confidence in here in a very public forum. We have the president, Mr. Cooke, failing to give direct confidence in Mr. Hill today. A meeting went on last night until around midnight, a matter of hours before the witnesses were due to appear before us here. Does Mr. Keohane think this situation is tenable? How can he retain confidence in Mr. Hill's position?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Because I look back at the progress the organisation has made over recent years. I think clarity has been brought to the statement today following the Oireachtas committee. I recognise there are learnings and we will have to take those learnings on board.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does Mr. Keohane not recognise that the president of the organisation, who is sitting to his left, has failed to express confidence in the chief executive, who is sitting to Mr. Keohane's right? Does Mr. Keohane not see that is an entirely untenable situation?

Mr. Tony Keohane

That is a thing for the president to reply to.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is a matter for Mr. Keohane, as chair of the board.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I think, as chair of the board, that we will be discussing all the learnings from this.

Deputy James O'Connor

What is Mr. Keohane's position as chairperson of that board?

Mr. Tony Keohane

My position as chairperson of the board is that it is regrettable we are here discussing this issue, given the progress that has been made. The explanations given today are a step forward from what was given previously. I am satisfied with that. The Deputy asked if something else is hidden somewhere. There is not, as far as I am concerned. There is no other issue that can be brought-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Mr. Keohane has obviously seen these redacted emails.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, I have.

Deputy James O'Connor

There is nothing within that redacted email that is of concern to him.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I am constrained by the legal position we are in but I do not believe there is anything that would be of further interest.

Deputy James O'Connor

Or anything that would be detrimental to the reputation of Mr. Hill's position?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Nothing further. The balance between the opening statement and the emails gives the picture.

Deputy James O'Connor

Could I ask the witnesses for their view on the Covid resilience funding and the other Covid funding the FAI received from the Department? We have just heard in my previous line of questioning that just under €1 million in funding was used that should not have been used to pay off legacy debt, even though it is in direct contravention of the guidance Dr. May's organisation published to the FAI. It is in contravention of the memorandum of understanding in that I do not believe Sport Ireland picked up on this issue in its quarterly engagements with the FAI on financial matters. What is the view of the witnesses and the board on that?

Dr. Una May

Is that to me?

Deputy James O'Connor

The chair of the board, please.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I am not in a position to comment on that because I do not have sufficient information, to be quite frank. As I said earlier, in the number of weeks-----

Dr. Una May

Can I clarify-----

Deputy James O'Connor

If Mr. Keohane is not in a position to comment, he does not need to say anything further.

An Cathaoirleach

I think Dr. May wanted to come in.

Dr. Una May

I wanted to clarify and apologise that I was not in a position to answer this as accurately as I should have during the Deputy's previous line of questioning. It is important the matter of the terms and conditions of funding is worded in a way which could open itself to potential misinterpretation. We are confident the interpretation-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Dr. May repeat that?

Dr. Una May

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Shane Califf, who was involved in the development of the guidelines for the scheme. I reassure the Deputy that, at the time, while he has identified an interpretation, we would agree-----

Deputy James O'Connor

How can one misinterpret "pre-existing deficits or debts will not be covered"?

Dr. Una May

It is important to acknowledge that those are the conditions. Again, I would like to give Mr. Califf an opportunity as well.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will repeat my question because Dr. May is not answering it.

Dr. Una May

What I would like-----

Deputy James O'Connor

How could it be misinterpreted that pre-existing debts or deficits will not be covered?

Dr. Una May

I think it is important-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I am sure Dr. May does think it is important, but she should answer the question.

Dr. Una May

-----that the interpretation relates to the context for that bullet point, which was about what was covered by the opportunities and areas in which-----

Deputy James O'Connor

If Dr. May does not want to answer my question, that is fine.

Dr. Una May

I am quite happy to answer that.

Deputy James O'Connor

Dr. May is not answering it. I need to move on.

Dr. Una May

I am quite happy to. It is important we clarify it. I will ask Mr. Califf to clarify it.

Deputy James O'Connor

With the Chair's permission, if that is okay.

An Cathaoirleach

I think the question Deputy O'Connor is asking is about the fact it has been clearly outlined that some money was used for that purpose when it should not have been.

Dr. Una May

The terms and conditions-----

An Cathaoirleach

Will the witnesses give a brief explanation of that?

Dr. Una May

If I could ask Mr. Califf.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O'Connor has gone over time.

Deputy James O'Connor

That is fine. I have two critical questions pertaining to this I need to ask.

An Cathaoirleach

So do the other members.

Deputy James O'Connor

I know, but they have to be asked.

Mr. Shane Califf

To clarify that about the application, because it is important, if any sports organisation has pre-existing debt and has no net Covid-19-related losses to income, it could not apply for funding solely to offset the debt. The funding was there to offset financial losses as a result of Covid-19.

Deputy James O'Connor

What precisely was that approximately €1 million used to pay off? It is public money. Does Mr. Califf know precisely what debt that was used to pay off?

Mr. Shane Califf

KOSI, our auditor, would have gone in with the €12 million that was provided in 2021 and got a schedule of what exactly the operating costs were used against.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is Mr. Califf in a position to inform us what the KOSI arrangement was and what it was used to pay back?

Mr. Shane Califf

We can get that detail.

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Mr. Califf provide that to the Public Accounts Committee?

Mr. Shane Califf

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

This is my last question. How much did the FAI receive from UEFA?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

That is part of a confidential agreement we have with UEFA on our commercial rights.

Deputy James O'Connor

There is a bit of a hole here because the FAI gets about €10 million from its media rights. In the middle of a pandemic, it still managed to find itself in a position where it had €20.5 million in a bank loan to pay back to Bank of Ireland. We need to figure out.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

There is no hole and no gap because UEFA continued that payment.

Deputy James O'Connor

The FAI got Covid relief funding.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I am explaining that that funding in relation to our rights was continued by UEFA. All credit to it, it did exactly the same for every single federation across UEFA.

Deputy Colm Burke

My question is for Dr. May. In her statement, she said Sport Ireland is the statutory authority tasked with the development of sport in Ireland. It goes back to my question on the issue of Glanmire where there are growing urban areas and about the input of Sport Ireland and indeed the Department with local authorities in making sure there are adequate lands kept for the development of sports facilities. It seems to be very much a hit and miss operation. The local authority grants planning permission for housing. Then we are talking about developing sports facilities at a far later stage. Should Sport Ireland and the Department be far more involved in getting clear targets out to local authorities in dealing with this issue? I know it might be going off the issue slightly but I think it is important because if we do not have facilities, then we cannot have young people involved in sport.

Dr. Una May

I defer to the Secretary General who has specific experience in this area, but Sport Ireland works closely with the local sports partnerships in every area and every county in the country. Many of those are based within the local authorities. We have a role to play in working closely to align our objectives with those within the local authority, but also in the process-----

Deputy Colm Burke

That comes very much after the housing is dealt with. It does not get involved before the whole development plan for an area. It is a hit-and-miss operation.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I suggest to the Deputy that planning is fundamentally a local issue.

Deputy Colm Burke

I accept that.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Local councillors take decisions on the local development plan and identify the need for facilities, whether sporting or otherwise. The Department, Sport Ireland and the Government across a range of services support the local government system. In a Department in Dublin, we will not know what the needs are in Glanmire. We are particularly dependent on the local authorities and their planning process-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I am talking about overall guidelines. If the Department suddenly decides to build 2,000 houses, should there not be guidelines? That does not appear to be the position.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

If the Deputy looks at overall planning policy, he will see that development planning policy contains all those guidelines he speaks of.

Deputy Colm Burke

Does Mr. Ó Coigligh not think there is still a shortage of available facilities in urban areas like Dublin, Cork and Galway for a lot of sports organisations? If proper planning were done in a timely manner, that would not arise.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

The Government has put generous funding schemes in place to help local authorities, clubs and communities to build up exactly the kinds of facilities the Deputy speaks of, guided by the local democratic representatives who decide local planning policy based on national planning guidelines about development plans, and so on. I think the system works well overall. There might be difficulties in individual areas. We have heard about a development in the Deputy's own area which it seems to have been stuck. The Department provided a grant and that offer is still there. We have seen large-scale projects.

Deputy Colm Burke

Development in a lot of areas still depends on voluntary organisations acquiring the land, putting the entire project together and sometimes competing with developers and everyone else. I have never seen a developer come along and develop a whole facility at the same time as developing housing. There is then the issue of co-ordinating facilities, like having sports facilities near primary schools and secondary schools. There seems to be a lack of co-ordination.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I think that is the strength of the local sports partnerships, which are embedded fundamentally-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Does Mr. Ó Coigligh not accept that the Department and Sport Ireland should be doing a lot more in working that whole issue through?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I think we do, and we would be happy to see if there is anything more we can do. We will also be working with our colleagues in the Department of housing who have responsibility for national planning policy. We will not be the body deciding which pitch goes where-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Does that tie in with the Department of Education as well?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

That is why the local planning is best placed-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Has there been engagement with the Department of Education?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

That is why that engagement-----

Deputy Colm Burke

No, I am asking a question. Is there engagement with the Department?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Absolutely there is engagement with the Department of Education. The Minister of State with responsibility for sport has responsibility in both Departments. There is absolutely engagement.

Deputy Colm Burke

Does Mr. Ó Coigligh not think we could be doing a lot more in this area as regards co-ordination of development of our schools or sports facilities, and at the same time of areas in a co-ordinated way rather than coming back ten years later to try to find land?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

That is the essence of planning, which is what we all work towards.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With the FAI's troubled history of financial management and corporate governance issues, does Mr. Hill acknowledge that avoiding privacy lines is something the FAI should strive for at all costs?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I think the organisation is committed to being as open and transparent as it can with regard to the wider Irish football community and more generally. We have been through a long process relating to a football facility plan where consultation has been at the heart of a new approach.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We see today that privacy lines have been central to what has been presented to this committee. What was the legal advice received?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I did not receive the legal advice. The association received the legal advice.

Ms Catherine Guy

I can help the Deputy with that. We sought legal advice relating to the information requested. We then sought specific legal advice on the extent to which we could, or could not, safely disclose information that would be considered to be of a confidential or sensitive nature in those emails. That is the specific advice we sought. We did some quite detailed work to end up in a position where we had to acknowledge the legal advice.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What was the legal advice?

Ms Catherine Guy

The legal advice was that the information redacted needed to be redacted because it contained sensitive, personal or employee related information.

Deputy Alan Dillon

You have redacted the time and date.

Ms Catherine Guy

We have literally stepped through that on a forensic basis.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How is that sensitive?

Ms Catherine Guy

There was information disclosing names of people who were sending emails, recipients-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

But the time and date would be important to know when this email was sent.

Ms Catherine Guy

Okay. I take that point. I will be clear that there was not an attempt to conceal the relevant information-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

There is a strategy here that tells us that we will see nothing on this page. There is a strategy of concealment here. Do you agree with that?

Ms Catherine Guy

No, I do not and I-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why would you conceal the date and time?

Ms Catherine Guy

May I answer the question? I think it is remarkably unfair to say there is a strategy of concealment with regard to that. We took great care to make sure we kept the organisation, our employees and sensitive data safe. That is not the only thing we did. We were also aware and cognisant of the interest in this specific issue and, speaking frankly, the interest in the initiation. I was present at the Oireachtas joint committee when you raised that question towards the end. One of the other Deputies has referred to the fact that we were in a meeting until late last night. One of the things we tried to do was make sure that in the opening statement, we balanced the privacy concerns and legal advice we have with the disclosures Mr. Hill has made.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Thank you, so it was primarily to protect a junior person within your organisation.

Ms Catherine Guy

Not primarily, but that was one factor.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What were the other factors?

Ms Catherine Guy

There are other people and other pieces of data and information scattered throughout the email chain which would be regarded as sensitive.

Deputy Alan Dillon

There is one email that is central to this.

Ms Catherine Guy

I will remark that I personally would not regard that email as central to this issue.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay.

Ms Catherine Guy

It is relevant because it is on an email chain. As Mr. Hill has alluded to, the issue arose in the context of an inquiry that had been raised by another staff member. If I can quite blunt, that is the full redaction you are referring to.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Mr. Hill verify that an FAI employee referenced by Ms Guy was the first person to request the email redaction?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Again, I have not been part of this process at all. I cannot verify and I cannot tell you because this is something that-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Who requested that the email be redacted? Was it you or was it the employee?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It certainly was not me.

Ms Catherine Guy

Again, just to say that we took the emails. This was part of the fact finding in the wake of the Oireachtas joint committee. We went back. We heard the messages. We went back. We had a further look. A lot of the evidence, the process and the deficiencies in the processes were dealt with in detail in the Oireachtas joint committee.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The question again, Ms Guy is-----

Ms Catherine Guy

The FAI, as employer, took the suite of emails and sought legal advice in respect of the employee obligation in the context of this voluntary appearance in front of the PAC. That was the initiation of the redaction exercise, and I was involved in that initiation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Again, was it for the FAI or for the individual?

Ms Catherine Guy

It was for the FAI, as employer. I am a board director. My obligation is to the organisation. As an employer you obviously have to be respectful of your employee rights as well, but it was for the organisation that the advice was sought.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I turn to the request for board members to be present here.

On foot of the explanation given today and point 6 of the FAI's opening statement, indicates that the board "acknowledges that the decision taken by the former Chair to approve the request was taken in good faith", do all the board members present accept that this is the case?

Ms Catherine Guy

Shall I speak for myself? Obviously, I would not pretend-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Ms Catherine Guy

I accept that. I have heard in detail the explanation that was given. I was here at the joint committee when that was dealt with by the previous chair. I have also been instrumental in the review we have done of our own processes. Even in terms of risk management, in the first , second and third lines of defence, there were deficiencies.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Even in the context of what the former CFO said about the evidence presented-----

Ms Catherine Guy

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----Ms Guy still feels this decision was made in good faith on the basis there were no exceptional circumstances and it was requested by the CEO.

Ms Catherine Guy

No. My view, my understanding and my belief are that there were exceptional circumstances. There was then a succession of discussions as that was passed up the line.

Deputy Alan Dillon

But it was outside the handbook. It was outside the rules of the FAI.

Ms Catherine Guy

We have totally acknowledged that. It was not in accordance with our policy and we have addressed that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Guy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can I hear from other board members on that?

An Cathaoirleach

Does Ms Joyce want to respond to that very briefly?

Ms Liz Joyce

Yes, I accept he made the decision in good faith.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Joyce.

I have a question for Mr. McCormack on the Covid funding. I apologise. I could not see his nameplate, and there are a lot of witnesses. In 2020, there was €13.2 million in Covid funding, yet only €2.2 million of that went to associations, clubs and affiliates. That amount appears quite low. What happened in 2020-21? What are the corresponding figures for 2021?

Mr. Dan McCormack

In 2021, I believe it was instead of an €11 million-€2 million split-----

An Cathaoirleach

It was split that way again, was it?

Mr. Dan McCormack

No. Instead of that, it was €12 million for FAI central costs, €5 million or so for League of Ireland and other costs and about €2 million for grass roots.

An Cathaoirleach

About €2 million for grass roots.

Mr. Dan McCormack

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Turning to Mr. Hill, clubs around the country, the association at grass roots level, etc., went through a very difficult period. Would he concede that this was a very low level of funding from the Covid relief fund for the grass roots? It was important for those clubs to keep the show on the road, but there would seem to be a large imbalance there between the €12 million at the central level and €2 million at grass roots level, which, after all, is the foundation that the whole edifice rests on.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The first point is that we were hugely grateful for the moneys that came through from Sport Ireland. That was appreciated.

An Cathaoirleach

I can understand Mr. Hill being grateful, but I am asking him whether he would accept that is a very low level of funding.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I would answer that by saying it was Sport Ireland that reviewed the submission we made and chose the split between the centre and, in 2021, the League of Ireland and the grass roots. I have two points. First, I do not think there was any grass roots club that was in absolute need due to Covid that was not helped. Therefore, we are thankful for that. Second, on-----

An Cathaoirleach

Many grass roots clubs might feel their allocations were not sufficient.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I would not characterise it that way. It was different in the first year. In the second year, all those who made requests and had all the supporting evidence for them generally received the money. They were helped in a very specific way. For that, we are thankful.

An Cathaoirleach

It would appear they were treated like the poor relations.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I do not accept that characterisation. The money that went into the League of Ireland, for example, was absolutely necessary to keep the clubs within the league alive during that period. Remember, there was no one going to the grounds to watch the games. Gate receipts are the lifeblood of the League of Ireland, so the balance between them was about right.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. McCormack send the committee a note breaking down what the €11 million centrally was spent on?

Mr. Dan McCormack

I can.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question about gender balance on the board. The 33% was not achieved by 2020. In December 2023, there were eight males and four females on the FAI board. That is 66.6% versus 33.3%. The FAI is facing a possible cut in funding on the basis of the gender quota on the board. Will Mr. Keohane outline what measures have been taken to try to improve the balance?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We have appointed two new female directors.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, but that is by way of expansion of the board.

Mr. Tony Keohane

By way of expansion of the board, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that from 12 to 14?

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, 12 to 14. We took that through the general assembly quite recently and cleared all the necessary stages. They are now full board members.

An Cathaoirleach

It looks like a bit of a desperate measure to keep the boys on board - to keep the men on board - that two women were added just to get over the funding issue, rather than a real attempt to try to get to a 50-50 balance? That is what I am interested in.

Mr. Tony Keohane

To be fair, it was a process I inherited.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that.

Mr. Tony Keohane

It made sense, and makes sense to me now, to get us to a stage of gender balance as per the MOU requirements. We have done that. There is further work to do in the organisation. There is further work-----

An Cathaoirleach

When the association has a board of 14, it will still have work to do.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, there is work to do within the organisation in order that our committees and all our structures have that balance as well. This is the beginning of a process that the board will have to be quite focused on over the next while to ensure that we have proper balance, not just gender balance, on committees and representation at all levels right throughout the organisation.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Keohane. That is important.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

Just one quick question from each of the members. Does Deputy McAuliffe have one?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have two little quick questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thought you would have three.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The witnesses have seen that the idea of total redaction is like a red rag to a bull. I refer to the idea that every element was so sensitive it could not be revealed. At the core of all this is the phrase Mr. Hill suggests was contained in an email and that was misconstrued or misunderstood. It has been suggested to me that the phrase used was "I'll have some of that". Is that the phrase that was used? Is that the context? It is important to take an opportunity to-----

Mr. Jonathan Hill

No. It was not the phrase that was used, and neither would I ever say that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay. It is important to clarify that.

I also have a question about Secretary General's pay for Dr. May. There was reference to Secretary General's pay, but there was never clarity about which level of Secretary General's pay and there was discussions about that-----

An Cathaoirleach

I think that was clarified. It was level I.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, but there was an attempt by the previous chair to seek a higher level. That was reported in the media. Will Dr. May clarify how that came about?

The final question is a simple one and is not FAI-related. Sport Ireland provides the local sports partnership grants. I was previously chair of the LCDC. Dublin city receives a grant of €454,000, which is in line with pretty much every other local authority. The difficulty is that Dublin city has 588,000 people. My colleague beside me is from Mayo. That county receives broadly the same amount of funding despite being home to only 137,000 people. Can Dr. May give any rationale for why the division between all the sports partnership grants are so equal when there are large disparities in population?

Dr. Una May

Yes. I will leave the question of the Secretary General salary to the Department because it would have addressed the request that came at the time from the former chair.

On the local sports partnerships, our funding specifically to them is not on a per capita basis. It supports the operational costs, including the salaries of the co-ordinator, the sports inclusion disability officer and the other officers retained through the sports partnerships. We also give them some funding for programmes and initiatives. Our funding relates to the structure of the local sports partnerships, not the delivery based on a per capita amount.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is disproportionate for Dublin though, because double the staff are needed to service double the population.

Dr. Una May

It is important the sports partnerships work very closely and are very closely aligned with the local authorities. In Dublin in particular, the local authority invests heavily in sport, which is very positive.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

But Sport Ireland does not.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy McAuliffe. Deputy O'Connor may come in.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I just want to ask, given the €20.5 million loan repayment-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am sorry, but Dr. May suggested that the Department was going to follow up on the-----

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

The Department clarified that Secretary General level I was the maximum that would be acceptable for the salary.

Deputy James O'Connor

In light of the €20.5 million loan repayment being scheduled and paid back in lump sums, how much of the €20.5 million was scheduled and how much was unscheduled?

Mr. Paul Cooke

It was approximately 50-50.

Deputy James O'Connor

If the FAI had not received the Covid funding from Sport Ireland, would it still have been in a position to pay back that money during the pandemic?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

We would have reviewed the financial situation at that point. It is a hypothetical question that is difficult to answer.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is not really. Would the FAI have been in a position to repay that loan if it had not received the money it received from Sport Ireland? "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Jonathan Hill

We would have reviewed it at the point. Mr. Courell may have a view.

Mr. David Courell

At this juncture, it is worth recognising that the support from Sport Ireland kept the association alive-----

Deputy James O'Connor

With the limited time available, could Mr. Courell skip that? We all know that.

Mr. David Courell

What I am trying to get to is that the support from the Government was what saw the association through the pandemic. The fact that we have emerged stronger, with record commercial revenues-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Good for you, but I asked a question. If the FAI had not received the funding, would it have been in a position to pay back the loan?

Mr. David Courell

If we had not received Covid support, the association might not be here today, so we are grateful to the Government for its support.

Deputy James O'Connor

Would it be fair to argue that the FAI misappropriated funds, given that the bulk of the Covid funding was used as a pretext to paying back debt?

Mr. David Courell

No. That is a-----

Deputy James O'Connor

It is a fair question. It is just an observation.

Mr. David Courell

I do not believe so. Even An Cathaoirleach is interjecting.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Deputy to rephrase the question.

Deputy James O'Connor

We have already learned that €1 million in funding that, as was very clearly stated, was not to be used to pay back debt was used to pay back debt.

An Cathaoirleach

We have that figure. Would Mr. Courell accept that it was wrong or at least a mistake to use that €1 million for the repayment of debt?

Deputy James O'Connor

Public money, I would add.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the issue the Deputy is asking about.

Mr. David Courell

The Covid support we received was applied for. The value referenced by Mr. McCormack earlier was disclosed through the application process, so there was full visibility regarding-----

An Cathaoirleach

What is frustrating for Deputy O'Connor is the use of that €1 million for a purpose for which it was not intended.

Mr. David Courell

We clearly stated in our application that we would be seeking support for that purpose.

Deputy James O'Connor

Who was in charge of that sub-committee as per the guidelines set down by Sport Ireland for the administration of this money?

Mr. David Courell

Is the Deputy talking about an FAI sub-committee?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes.

Mr. David Courell

I am afraid-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Each governing body was asked to set up a-----

Mr. David Courell

I am afraid I was not in the association at the time.

Deputy James O'Connor

Could somebody answer that question for me?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

It was dealt with at board level.

Deputy James O'Connor

Regarding ensuring good governance and strong oversight, Sport Ireland recommended governing bodies establish a sub-committee to evaluate requests and make recommendations to the governing bodies' boards for final decision-making. This concerned guidance for funding to clubs, branches and affiliates. Does Dr. May have anything to say in response to what I have just said?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The board did that.

Deputy James O'Connor

It was the FAI's board. The FAI did not set up a sub-committee.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I think the board reviewed all the numbers and did that accordingly. The Deputy can ask-----

Mr. Paul Cooke

It all came to the board.

Deputy James O'Connor

The existing board. S no sub-committee was set up.

Mr. Paul Cooke

No.

Deputy James O'Connor

What does Dr. May think of that?

Dr. Una May

It is very important to acknowledge that this is a mischaracterisation of the purpose of the Covid funding.

Deputy James O'Connor

It was in the FAI's own guidance. It is not a mischaracterisation.

Dr. Una May

It is. It is about supporting losses to the organisation. It is very important that we clarify that point. Sport Ireland is fully confident that the criteria for the funding scheme were met through the application we received from the FAI. My colleague Mr. Califf would like provide some additional information on that.

Mr. Shane Califf

I clarified earlier that when we said that no debts were to be covered, it meant that a body could not apply for pre-existing debts if it did not have corresponding net losses as a result of Covid-19. I wish to make that very clear. With regard to the sub-committees, we recommended that governing bodies set up sub-committees for the distribution of the funds to their clubs. KOSI would have audited multiple governing bodies, including the FAI, and come back to say that the governing bodies, including, the FAI, adhered to the terms and conditions of the scheme. It is about not misunderstanding the application process versus the expenditure.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Sport Ireland, the FAI and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for preparing the work for today's meeting and sending us documentation. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting today's meeting. I acknowledge that three different bodies have appeared before the committee, namely, the Department, Sport Ireland and the FA. I also acknowledge that while the FAI is not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, we tried to deal with it on a voluntary basis in terms of the answers provided. I thank everybody for attending and assisting.

Is it agreed that the clerk of the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out agreed actions arising from today's meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed. We will suspend until 1.45 p.m., when we will resume in public session to deal with correspondence and any other business. There is a great deal of important business to deal with it in the afternoon, so we will try to get good attendance.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.56 p.m. until 1.45 p.m.