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Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023

Pre-Budget Engagement (Resumed): Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and Nevin Economic Research Institute

I welcome Professor Michael McMahon, Dr. Adele Bergin and Dr. Eddie Casey, all of whom members will be aware are from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. This is the first of two sessions here this evening on our pre-budget deliberations.

As is the norm but as is necessary, I must explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I again remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I ask Professor McMahon to give his opening statement, before we respond and ask questions thereafter.

Professor Michael McMahon

The council is grateful to the Chair and members of the committee for inviting us to appear before it again. We value our engagements with the Oireachtas and consider these opportunities an integral part of our work. As I am sure everyone remembers, as an official independent body established under the Fiscal Responsibility Act 2012, the council's mandate centres on four elements. These are endorsing and assessing the official macroeconomic forecasts, assessing official budgetary projections, monitoring compliance with fiscal rules and assessing the Government’s overall fiscal stance. This means the council’s focus is on the broader fiscal perspective, and not individual tax or spending measures.

In our pre-budget 2024 statement, we assess the Government’s official plans ahead of budget 2024 as set out in the summer economic statement. This updates the analysis in our June 2023 fiscal assessment report. When we think about the Government’s stance, we think about two things. First, we consider what is right for the economy. In practice, this means assessing whether the economy needs widespread support as in a recession, or if it needs cooling, as is the case when price pressures are high and unemployment is low. Second, we consider what is likely to be sustainable. This often means assessing how likely it is that the tax base will be able to support spending needs over the medium term, without leading to sharp cuts in expenditure or tax increases.

Right now, we can see the economy clearly does not require extra stimulus. We are above full employment, which is to say we have never had this high a share of the population employed. This strength is one of the reasons the present high price and wage pressures could persist. In terms of sustainability, we are projected to run surpluses. However, the strong fiscal position is flattered by excess corporation tax receipts. Without these, Ireland would be running its 17th annual deficit this year. In the summer, the Government set out its plans, which involve repeatedly breaching the national spending rule every year until 2026. As a result, core net spending is expected to be €4 billion higher by 2026 compared to plans set out five months ago. The breaches are serious.

First, they continue the pro-cyclical fiscal policies Ireland has struggled with in the past. That is, increasing spending and cutting taxes when the economy is already performing strongly. Such an approach can destabilise the economy in an upturn, fuelling more price increases, and it often means having to reverse those measures in bad times as revenues dry up. This approach has added to unemployment increases in downturns, exacerbating recessions. Second, the breaches leave the fiscal framework and Ireland's national spending rule less credible. This comes at a time when EU fiscal rules are not applicable, and reforms will render them less useful for Ireland.

In the near term, spending overruns, especially in health, will add to the overall expansion. Further non-core measures will also add to the overall expansion, and risk keeping inflation higher for longer. Labelling temporary measures non-core does not mean they will not contribute to further price pressures in the economy. With energy prices falling, there is little to no justification for these. Further ahead, the Government has not factored in other pressures that are going to hit the public finances.

Ireland faces three major fiscal challenges in the coming years and decades. These are addressing ageing pressures, meeting climate objectives and resisting the temptation of using unreliable corporation tax receipts for permanent commitments. The Government’s proposals to establish a savings vehicle could help with two of these three challenges. First, by saving the excess corporation tax receipts it is collecting, Ireland can prevent the risk that it builds up permanent commitments on the back of these. The risks around relying on excess corporation tax receipts should not be understated. The risk is that these highly concentrated receipts, with three firms accounting regularly for one third of receipts, suddenly reverse for reasons outside our control. Depending on the commitments we make, that could involve painful austerity measures to unwind permanent spending increases or tax cuts made on the back of these receipts. Second, saving and investing these receipts in a fund, at the same time as insulating us from risks of reversals, would generate a new revenue stream over time. This revenue stream has the potential to make a big dent on future costs related to ageing, and lessen the burden we put on future generations. Public investment is an important aspect of Irish fiscal policy. The national development plan provides a framework to plan longer term capital needs, and existing plans imply a significant ramp up to more than €15 billion in 2026. That is almost double the 2019 levels. There are existing ways to achieve higher capital spending within the net national spending rule. However, trying to spend too much money now, whether labelled as core spending or windfall risks low value for money, as investment spending is typically concentrated in already constrained sectors. It is not easy to catch up on years of lower investment quickly. It must be done carefully and in a well-planned manner.

Addressing both ageing and climate change pressures will require much improved planning. As I have already stated, the EU fiscal rules are unlikely to act as a serious guide for how we manage the public finances. Reinforcing the national spending rule as a first line of defence would help Ireland to navigate the challenges it is facing, while ensuring that it does not undermine fiscal sustainability. Doing too much now risks having to unwind budgetary decisions at a later point when the economy most needs support. Planning for future pressures, and making decisions today that can be sustained into the future will be essential to avoid painful decisions at a later time. It would avoid repeating our past mistakes.

We thank the committee for its attention. We remain committed to assisting the Oireachtas in achieving fiscal responsibility and economic stability, and we are happy to answer any questions.

I thank Professor McMahon for his statement, which is critical of the Government stance.

I want to ask a question, because I agree with some of what he says, such as "planning for future pressures, and making decisions today that can be sustained into the future will be essential to avoid painful decisions at a later time." We talk about the economy overheating and us being at full capacity. So, how do we address the situation where we almost have two countries? We have the west and the north-west, and then we have the east. We know, in terms of competitiveness, that the west and the north-west are in the bottom 7% in the EU competitive index as regards infrastructure. That has to be addressed. When we talk about our dependence on the three firms, as Professor McMahon rightly says, we have to look at how we get away from that. How do we create the opportunities for other businesses to grow and develop within the regions, and in particular to maximise the opportunity of the Atlantic economic corridor, renewable energies and all of the opportunities that presents? If we are going on what he is saying about not investing any further in infrastructure, how do we address the two different economies we have. We know the national development plan has been slowed down and reduced in terms of the amounts that are going to be spent there because of inflation and all of that. We also know about the disparity in incomes between east and west. The Professor has spoken of our reliance on three firms, or ten firms, or whatever in terms of corporation tax and our spend. How can we address that if we put everything into a National Reserve Fund?

Professor Michael McMahon

There is no suggestion that we would put everything into a savings vehicle. There is already a huge increase in corporation tax, which is not labelled or determined. However, as we have said many times to this committee, and as we have said in our reports, there is a lot of uncertainty about how you estimate what is excess. We had this discussion last time we were here, and explained some of the uncertainties around it.

Currently, a large amount of corporation tax enters as normal revenue and we have not at all suggested putting that into a savings vehicle. A lot of corporation tax, much higher sums than in other European countries, is already going into core current spending and capital spending.

As for the specific question, we are not suggesting that more investment cannot be made in infrastructure or anything else. Within the net national spending rule, the "net" is a really important part. It would be perfectly within the rules, in the example the Deputy gave, for taxes to be levied, raised or applied to one part of the country to spend more in another part of the country. It would be possible for that to be perfectly compliant with the rules while ramping up spending in one area and reducing it in another, or taxed in one area and not in another. We do not take views on individual specific policies nor - this will not surprise the Deputy - do we take them on specific regional or industrial policies. At the aggregate level, however, within the fiscal numbers, it is perfectly possible to have policies of the sort the Deputy is describing within the rules the Government has set out for the net national spending rule.

Does Professor McMahon believe that can be done also to address the challenges we have in housing and health?

Professor Michael McMahon

Absolutely. As I was alluding to, the challenge with investment spending, as I said in my opening statement, is that it is incredibly hard to carry out investment spending quickly and achieve good value for money. It is not simply an issue of throwing a bit of money at it today and then having dealt with it. Building a new hospital, for example, is a capital spend, but in order for it to be effective, it brings with it a series of core current spending that will come in the future. A hospital without machines, doctors, nurses, janitors, porters and so on is not useful. An overall plan, therefore, needs to take those things into account, and if there is an opportunity to do them in one part of the country that is high value, with the money to be raised howsoever, that can all be done within the net national spending rule.

Is Professor McMahon saying that, at the moment, there needs to be a cooling of the economy?

Professor Michael McMahon

In aggregate, the economy does not require extra stimulus. We are getting cooling in the economy from monetary policy. Trying to counteract that with highly stimulatory fiscal policy will simply exacerbate the extent of the price and wage pressures in the near term. Within that aggregate, however, there is plenty of scope for individual policies in a net sense not to stimulate the economy but to make transfers or invest in certain areas. That requires choices, however, and they are hard choices.

I thank the witnesses from IFAC for their contribution and work. They are making pretty much the same arguments as the Central Bank, representatives of which we were talking to earlier in front of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, and I think all the economists are looking at the same general picture. I accept they will not go into their views on policy choices.

Nevertheless, when there is a concern about spending that may encourage further inflation by injecting demand into the economy, as the argument goes, that is often translated in popular parlance into meaning it would be inadvisable to compensate people fully for the impact of inflation and the cost of living with budgetary measures that would do that. Against a background where, while there are various estimates, it is generally accepted that the majority of working people on average incomes, pensioners, social welfare recipients, people on fixed incomes and so on have seen a significant net loss in their income, that is a big problem for them because the message being sent, whereby we cannot use all the money we have, despite having a big surplus, to protect them against a crippling cost-of-living and accommodation crisis because it could be damaging to the wider economy, does not sit very well with huge numbers of people.

Do they not have a point, given it is not their spending or their demand, to use the economic terminology, that has caused inflation? Do we not need to disentangle what we are talking about when we talk about excess demand or excess spending? In fact, what is happening to that cohort, who are the majority of people, is that there is less spending and demand from them. In some cases, they do not have enough money to put food on the table or pay the rent. They are not guilty of overstimulating the economy. Do we not need to be a little more specific about saying where spending would be inadvisable and where it would be advisable from that point of view? I do not see how compensating people for, say, a 10% or 15% loss in income could be inflationary, but I can see how not compensating them would be deflationary. They are paying the price for something that is happening on the other side of the equation. Is it not fair to say the net effect of the inflated prices is that the majority of people are losing out, whereas someone who owns bank shares or shares in an energy company, a fossil fuel company or certain industries that are doing very well is doing very well out of this. Is that not the picture?

Professor Michael McMahon

I am going to disappoint the Deputy partly at least, as I usually do with my answers. What he is describing are preferences over certain targeting or non-targeting of specific policies, which we do not comment on. That is not in our mandate and we try to do what we are asked.

I will try to disappoint the Deputy a little less with my next comment. Inflation hurts everyone. That is one of the points that used to be hard to teach, when I was teaching, because most people had lived most of their lives in an era of relatively slow and stable inflation where they had not had to think about it. The past two years has clearly changed that. Everybody is being hurt but, within that, there are distributional differences in regard to who is or is not affected.

To go back to the answer I gave in response to Deputy Conway-Walsh, decisions can be made within the net national spending rule that would allow policies such as Deputy Boyd Barrett was prescribing, which I am not endorsing or otherwise - that is for politicians to decide - but the sum allowable in new net core spending under the Government's net national spending rule is €4.3 billion. We estimate that the cost of standing still also happens to be, completely by chance, €4.3 billion, but if we did not make some of the extra windfall investment or introduce some of the tax package, we could maintain the real value of public services, increase some wages in line with inflation and increase pension costs and other transfers in line with inflation. That is doable. If we wanted to go beyond that, we could take revenue-raising measures and that would give us more scope. Nothing in our report takes those types of policies off the table.

One other point, which I think we have made many times in the past, so I am not overstepping the mark, is that a question that should often be asked of these types of policies relates to how well targeted they are. If we have identified a subset of the population who deserve extra support, whether that is geographically based, income based or based on some other decision rule, the best use of public funds to help them is one that is targeted rather than saying we need to help those people and that, therefore, we will just take a blanket measure where most of the benefit goes to someone else.

That is a big discussion that should reign over a lot of Government policy. I am trying to say this in language that does not express a preference for one set of policies or another so as not to overstep the mark. That is a reasonable discussion of fiscal policy. How targeted should it be and who are we trying to help? To go back to the answer I gave to Deputy Conway-Walsh, all of these types of policies are permissible under a net national spending rule; it is just that they involve choices. It is for the political system to make those choices when the time comes to make them. I hope I did not disappoint Deputy Boyd Barrett too much.

I agree. We are very prudential in that regard. We think we should raise additional taxes on wealth, financial transactions and various other areas to cover what we see as the additional necessary expenditure to protect people from the cost-of-living crisis and to invest in housing, health or whatever. I agree. I would question one comment Professor McMahon made there, which is that inflation hurts everybody. If most of someone's income derives from dividends from bank shares, for example, the current situation is not hurting them, or people with stock options in big IT companies that are making extraordinary profits. Those who are affected by inflation are seeing their real income falling. I would say the majority are affected but it is not fair to say that everybody is affected. Some people are doing well out of this.

Professor Michael McMahon

It is very hard to find subsets of the world who benefit from high inflation. Inflation typically hurts market values for assets and it hurts real spending value. I think what the Deputy is saying, which is absolutely right, is that some people have a sufficient buffer that they do not have to notice the effect of it. Their buffer gets run down a bit more than they thought but they do not have to change their lifestyles. That I would agree with. However, I would not say they are gaining from it. It is very hard to find people who in aggregate gain from high inflation.

When Professor McMahon is talking about being targeted, is that not part of the problem with the interest rate hikes? They are very untargeted. The policy that is being pursued by the Central Bank and the ECB is to hike interest rates. There is nothing targeted about that, is there? The people who are getting hurt by it are often those who can least afford it. It might be cooling the economy in some sort of general sense, but from the point of view of the people most directly affected, namely, mortgage holders for the roof over their heads, they are getting slaughtered for things they did not cause.

Professor Michael McMahon

The Deputy is absolutely right that interest rates are an incredibly blunt tool. That is why most reasonable policy mixes involve both monetary and fiscal policy. Fiscal policy has the power to be incredibly targeted. Should we wish to cool the economy in a very targeted way, fiscal policy can do that through a number of different measures.

I skipped the queue earlier. Does Deputy Healy-Rae wish to come in now? No. Next is Deputy Durkan, then Deputies Leddin and Nash.

I thank our guests for coming before the committee. It is part of a long day of similar discussions. There are a number of instruments to deal with inflation. Which is the most effective, in the opinion of IFAC, without referring to policy? Sometimes there were credit controls in the past, specifically aimed at certain areas. That can be difficult as well. Increasing interest rates is a blunt instrument, as we know. It affects everybody to an ever-increasing extent. The main thing we need to remember is that mortgages are affected in a particular way. The fear that strikes into the hearts of people who have mortgages comes from the fact that nobody knows how long this is going to last. I raised the question earlier with the Department of Finance as to whether we can give some indication to the people who have borrowings and have faced an increase in interest rates over recent months which they see as a threat to them. What other means can the witnesses think of that could be used? Other members will refer to a wealth tax but I do not think the wealth tax does it. We had a wealth tax before and it had to be abolished. We are now groping around for the best possible way to deal with inflation, which is a serious problem. What should we do?

Professor Michael McMahon

Following on from the last answer I gave, in aggregate, monetary policy has its role to play but, ideally, supported by a fiscal policy that at least points in the same direction. Again, within that we can still redistribute and target with fiscal measures, but as a broad approach it works well. In terms of knowing how long this will last, we do not know how long it will last but we know that if we try to have fiscal policy act against monetary policy, it will last longer. That is not so much the case for Ireland because we will have rates set by the ECB. We could have a situation where rates have come down because every other country has lower inflation, but then we would just have higher inflation for longer. A general advice of the increase in interest rates is tougher.

One thing that I would certainly be asking a lot of questions about is this: we always mention the effect of the interest rate rise on mortgagors or borrowers but it also should have a beneficial effect on those who have assets. That tends to help older generations who tend to have less debt and to have savings assets, often in very safe vehicles. They should, on net, get some gain. For that to happen, it needs the deposit rates also to go up in line with the lending rates, which often happens more slowly and at a slightly differential rate. That is a way to take heat out of the economy in the aggregate. That would be my view of the best approach to take.

Does Deputy Leddin have any queries or questions? No. Deputy Nash is next.

The Central Bank said yesterday that the Government's stance is likely to be expansionary. Would IFAC agree with that in the first instance? Do our guests agree that the budgetary and fiscal stance that is to be taken in October is likely to contribute to inflation? The Central Bank said yesterday that its forecast for inflation next year is about 3.2%. When I questioned its representatives on this yesterday and asked what impact the budgetary stance, as we understand it at the moment, would have, they said it is likely to add about 0.2% to 0.7% to inflation next year. Would IFAC agree with that analysis?

Professor Michael McMahon

There are a few parts to that. Yes, we would agree that as set out in the summer economic statement and given where the economy is now, we would assess that the stance is expansionary. Our own estimates of the effects of the extra would be about 0.2% to 0.4%. We are in the range but maybe in the lower end. The way I would present that number would be to think about taking that across the whole of the forecast out to 2026. These are not just breaches next year but breaches every year to 2026. We estimate this would add about 1% to the price level. If we took an alternative stance, namely, the countercyclical stance, we could imagine doing the opposite and taking 1% off the price level. That is a two percentage point swing or the price level being 2% differentially affected by this change in stance because of the summer economic statement view.

Dr. Eddie Casey

There is huge uncertainty around those types of estimates, the ones the Central Bank would have used and that we use. Part of the reason is they tend to be average effects over the course of a full cycle, but when you are in a position like this when there has never been a jobs market this tight and we have never had employment rates this high, it is hard to really be that convinced that it could be of that order. It could be much larger again. The worry is the persistence of it, that once it is kept it higher, it gets on track, becomes deanchored and you see it for longer.

There has been an effort to explain it as the impact of inflation across society. We know from experience and, more importantly, from data, who is most adversely impacted by high prices and inflation. It is rural dwellers, lone parents, and those on fixed and low incomes. The stickier this becomes, the more impact it will have on those groups that, as Deputy Boyd Barrett said, are least capable of absorbing the hit.

IFAC, the Central Bank, the ESRI and others have raised concerns about the way what could be characterised as non-core expenditure has been presented and accounted for. How would IFAC account for that? It has become a feature of the system over recent years where we have capital expenditure, core expenditure and then there is this new phenomenon called non-core expenditure. As I said here yesterday, it seems this Government seems to know more about the conduct of the war in Ukraine than Vladimir Putin and Zelenskyy about how it will unfold. Whether we like it or not, and we would like this to end more quickly than seems likely, we are likely to be accommodating those who are fleeing war in Ukraine for quite some time, there are going to be additional costs, and we will pay for that. It is how we account for it. There is a bit of a con job going on here, is there not? How would IFAC account for the non-core expenditure, as it is described? Would it simply describe it as core expenditure and bake it in?

Professor Michael McMahon

For some of it, yes. Members of this committee do not need the short history lesson on its origins. When it first came in, it related to Covid. At that time, I think it made sense. It certainly was a societal fiscal support that we have not seen here or elsewhere before. I do not necessarily think the spending has to be incredibly transient or temporary to qualify as non-core. It can be something like Covid, where it is reasonable to say that, as a society, we agreed this was an unusual event, we needed to support the whole of society as much as we could, and we put a bunch of money into the economy and did not think of it as a big shift in policy but that it would be there as long as it had to be there. When it first came in, we had no idea. We did not sit here but we sat at our computer screens at home and beamed in to the committee and made this point. That made sense. In the same way, you can make an argument that, as a society, if we have chosen that the spending on support for Ukrainian refugees is something that is not going to be permanent but is an important societal thing we are doing and we are willing to treat it outside of the normal realms, we would be okay with that. The thing with which we would take greater issue is chucking in other things that are naturally core spending and justifying it on the grounds that we only mean them to be there for a year.

Such as, for example, what were described as once-off social welfare payments that could become a feature of the system if policy decisions are taken.

Professor Michael McMahon

A prudent way to account for them would be to put them in as normal spending and then, when they are taken out, our net national spending rule is such that there is more space to spend. Equally, as IFAC has stated publicly and as I alluded to in my opening statement, labelling some capital spending as windfall capital spending rather than just including it as core capital spending is not how we would do it. The numbers we have presented and will present in our next fiscal assessment report will include windfall capital spending as core capital spending, whatever label it is given.

That is positive. How does IFAC take the criticism from the Government? It has been quite critical.

Professor Michael McMahon

It disagrees with some of the things we say. We were actually chatting about this earlier. Our mandate, as we read out at the start of each of these meetings, is to endorse the macro forecasts and assess them, which we do, and beyond that it is to assess. We assess and we put our assessment forward. Friends of mine have asked is it difficult if the Government listens or does not, but it is absolutely right that politicians in a democracy make the big choices. We will assess and we will make those known. The press will give the Government of the day a hard time, the committee will get evidence it can take to the Government and ask questions and make criticism, and that is how it should work. The Government may criticise how we choose to account for it and we can disagree on lots of things, but I think most people agree on the issue of relabelling something that is ordinarily accounted in one place and putting is somewhere else. We will continue to do what we think is best on how to treat these numbers and we will present our assessments as we always do.

I have one more question in the time available. In a previous report IFAC said, and I am paraphrasing, that for the Government to meet its existing ambitions under the current national development plan, additional expenditure of 24% would be required. Does the council still hold to that? That is over the next period of years.

Professor Michael McMahon

I will let Dr. Casey think about the exact number. I will make a more general statement about it. We have absolutely supported the national development plan. There is clear evidence that Ireland needs investment spending, and the national development plan is a laid-out framework. Again, we would always ask for more detail. The challenge is whether these projects can be delivered on time and on budget. A lot of planning and preparatory work is required for that. If the national development plan were implemented with nothing else, Ireland would move from being below average in terms of investment in the EU to above average and heading towards the upper quartile. As with my earlier response to Deputy Conway-Walsh and as I alluded to in my statement, it important that the debate includes an awareness that years of non-investment cannot be fixed by a sudden injection of investment. It has to be done in a gradual way and in a carefully planned way. That is what we will be pushing the Government to lay out, both in the budget and in future budgets and statements.

Dr. Eddie Casey

On the specifics, it is about the same. It is probably a little higher than we would have had in the last estimate, given the rise in inflation. The reason we are doing this is because we think the national development plan is a great idea. Ireland is a good model of how this is done. Doing a ten-year capital plan and setting out ambitions for infrastructure and various big projects is a good thing that you do not see a lot of internationally. Part of the problem in terms of how it is done is that it is all set in cash ceilings. In an environment such as today when inflation suddenly rises rapidly or there are very big difficulties getting construction workers because there is so much demand for other types of capital work, you will probably face overruns or delays to the projects being fulfilled. It speaks to the points we are making. Part of the problem is doing everything at the same time and realising all your ambitions at a point in the cycle when everything is really tight. That is why we say we are making a lot of the same past mistakes again. We are trying to do everything at the same time now.

I can return to Sinn Féin, whether Deputy Ryan or Deputy Doherty wishes to come in.

I am keeping an eye on the Chamber as our Private Members' Business debate is coming up.

IFAC speaks about the national spending rule. It is the only organisation that calls it the national spending rule. IFAC wants us to legislate for the rule but there is no legislation underpinning the rule and it is not a national rule. It is a Government rule that appeared in the summer economic statement. I think the language is important because there is no national rule of standing. It is a Government rule and the language around it is important. IFAC’s presentations have been very important for the public to understand the fiscal rules, their import and their outworking. This is a guide for the Government that appeared in the summer economic statement in 2021 which it does not call a national rule. The language is important in this.

Professor Michael McMahon

I will let Dr. Casey come in but I will take a small part of this question.

An important point is there are other countries, Finland being one, that also have a spending rule like this. It is also not legislated for, but it is the guide used to assess the policy. Our biggest issue with the rules at the moment is the EU ones do not apply and under the proposed reforms they will not bind for Ireland. In the absence of that, namely, if we do not have some domestic fiscal rule, we will be weakening the credibility of the Irish fiscal framework and again that is-----

I understand IFAC's logic because its members have it clear and asked for the rule to be legislated. However, as a point of fact we do not have a national expenditure rule. There is no legislation underpinning it; the Government describes it as the Government's rule. It is not a national rule. It is not like the fiscal rules that had an underpinning and despite IFAC wishing it did, it does not and it is important the language the council presents does not confuse people to suggest there is a rule being breached, because it is the three parties of Government that have come up with this rule. It is Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party's rule. It is not the Oireachtas's rule. It is an important point because some people who are reading this wonder whether we are breaching the rules compared with the European fiscal rules, and that has consequences, so it is important in that context. I understand why the council argues for it, but it does not exist. It does not exist in legislation and it is not a rule of the Oireachtas.

Dr. Eddie Casey

If I can jump in, I understand the semantics are important here and I would like to explain why we think about it as a national spending rule. One reason is when we talk to other fiscal councils internationally and look at other countries and what they are doing, the big thing we have is the EU or international fiscal rules and then national fiscal rules. In a lot of cases national fiscal rules, or spending rules, are not in legislation and are just agreements. They are either coalition agreements or-----

There is no agreement. There is no agreement of the Oireachtas. This rule-----

Dr. Eddie Casey

The coalition has an agreement.

Which means it is not national.

Dr. Eddie Casey

It is not international, so that is why we think of it as national.

It is not national. The Oireachtas has never agreed to this rule. This is a majority of Deputies who make up the coalition agreeing to it in their parties. It is important. It is more than semantics, because as I said IFAC has a crucial role in educating and guiding people on complex issues and there is no national rule.

Unfortunately, I will have to go the Chamber because time is catching up with us. It was an interesting debate on the recategorisation of expenditure. If a government is going to do something to support people in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis IFAC is saying it should be classified as core expenditure and if that government is not going to do it next year then it should remove it, even though it is thinking of doing it just as a once-off. However, IFAC has accepted non-core expenditure in previous years. Indeed, it believed in another summer economic statement that non-core expenditure, that is, temporary expenditure, was the prudent position of the Government. IFAC believed it was fine to have all the expenditure on Covid and the invasion of Ukraine as temporary expenditure even though there is no indication when the billions of euro will actually cease, but if we want to do a one-off support for people with petrol or diesel the council thinks we should be putting it into core expenditure. I do not see the logic of that.

Professor Michael McMahon

I think I was pretty clear on this in my answer to Deputy Nash. The temporal dimension of the spending should not be what determines the core or non-core. The unique nature of both the Ukraine and Covid spending, to my mind at least, justifies treating it somewhat separately even if it is going to be somewhat persistent. I cannot remember the exact wording we used, but let me state how I view the previous acceptance of some of the non-core expenditure. Last summer into last autumn we were facing into a sudden hike in energy prices. There was not just a hike in energy prices but huge uncertainty as to how far up they would go, how long that would last, what would happen over the winter, whether gas would be cut off and whether electricity prices would go through the roof. In that world uncertainty can hit demand in a big way and especially that of the most vulnerable. In that world, even if the Government classified that as core spending and as a result breached the spending rule we would still have said as a one-off breach it made sense at that time. Where we have taken greater issue with it now is some of the case for that type of support is disappearing. Moreover, there is a lovely chart in the pre-budget statement where one can see the once-off nature of the increase in spending as planned in the last budget. According to the summer economic statement it is not a once-off, but a persistent deviation from the Government's own set of rules. That is why labelling that as core or non-core is important. I could justify supporting a temporary support where it is necessary, whether one labels it core or non-core, but when it is persistent the argument is made that because it is non-core it does not count, then that is when we will take issue with it.

Okay. I can extrapolate from that that in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis where we expect inflation to decrease by 2025 across the EU at 2.1%, and less here next year, that one-off measures to provide support with the cost of living could be dealt with as non-core expenditure because they are genuinely only there to deal with the inflationary pressures on families.

Professor Michael McMahon

We would encourage these to be targeted policies-----

Professor Michael McMahon

-----and ideally dealt with as part of core spending. If they are genuinely temporary, the Government will get the extra space back the next year. That would be a-----

The same logic, however, could apply to the Covid expenditure and so on. It is a different shift from IFAC and I can understand why the council is trying to shift in that direction.

The last thing I will say is on windfall capital expenditure. One can argue about why we would call it that but it is actually funded by windfall receipts and that is the reality. Does the council not accept in any way that a state could operate on the basis that X amount is the appropriate capital expenditure for the next decade, let us say it is €10 billion for argument's sake, but because of where we have come from over the last number of years a catch-up programme is required that may need an extra €3 billion to be added over the next two to three years from the windfall receipts? Is that not an appropriate view? It is not core. It is recognised it is not going to stay permanently at the new level of €13 billion and will reduce back to €10 billion, but we have missed out so much that we need to escalate and ramp up supply.

Professor Michael McMahon

Why would we call it windfall and not catch-up if that is the logic? Why is that not part of the national development plan? We do not refer to transfer payments that are funded from corporation tax as corporation tax-funded transfers. We do not talk about capital spending as debt-financed capital spending. We separate the financing and the expenditure for a reason. We do not label things in that way. The NDP is one such plan that has this. The Deputy can argue the timing of it is not right or we could do it in a different way and that is a decision to be made. We on the council argue now is not a great time for us to try to ramp up spending because we would be doing it at a time when we get least value for money. Recognising there is a catch-up to do is absolutely fine, but it can be financed within the normal realm of public finances which is we have revenues and we have expenditure and we work out the net balance. We do not match line to line; that is just not how public financing tends to work.

I understand and I agree on that. I am sorry I need to cut this short, but I thank the council members for coming in and for their answers.

The national development plan is based on a ten-year period. It is projected to spend a set amount money and get a set amount of projects done. There is great excitement when ones sees a project one has been looking at is in the national development plan. Regarding the money to implement the plans, the national development plan is a list with budgets added but how much money is spent each year, or targeted to be spent each year is a bit different. We talk about the construction industry. It is at full capacity at the moment, but many of the people who could help us increase our capacity are working elsewhere and will not come back here to work unless they have certainty of continuity of work. What happens is we go in cycles and we are up on the top of the tree and the next thing we are all burnt on the ground.

How can we keep a relatively straight line on expenditure and delivery over a ten-year period rather than shoot up to the stars and back down again, going down below the line and back up, with recessions and boom and bust? How can that be controlled?

Professor Michael McMahon

At the aggregate level, as we discussed extensively in the report, Ireland has a history of procyclical policies, not just on investment, although investment is the most volatile component both of government and the aggregate economy. We have a tendency to spend a lot when things are going great and then to have to retrench that spending when things are not going well.

We have argued strongly in the report and historically, and other economists will sit here and do the same, that an ideal fiscal policy is countercyclical. It is precisely about having projects ready to invest in, which we would be doing in any case all the time but on which we could do more exactly at the moment the economy is weak. When the economy is strong, we might have to do less on them, but we would avoid that boom-bust both within investment and the aggregate, and in doing so, we would keep the aggregate economy in a better position. That is where a procyclical budget 2024 risks repeating these past mistakes.

Dr. Eddie Casey

I might add that this is a great question that goes to the heart of what we are saying about avoiding this pattern of repeating that cycle, exactly as the Deputy is saying. In the 2000s, public investment was ramped up to incredibly high levels and then had to be halved over a small period, only to see mass migration of construction workers out of Ireland and a very difficult period afterwards when we were struggling to get that capacity back. We are getting to that point now where we can again have a thriving construction sector. What we do not want to do is repeat the exact same pattern. We do not want to go too far too quickly and see us have to reverse capital spending again at a point in the future. That is why the spending rule is so important, in our view. We think this has to be done in a sustainable way, with planning for capital spending, and not in a way where there is a rollercoaster of doing too much and then nothing, with capacity washed out of the sector.

That seems to have exacerbated some of the problems in investment. We see less productivity in Irish construction compared with other countries, which might be a feature of what we saw with people having to leave the sector, not innovating and not putting money into research and development and capital initiatives, using new technologies and the like. We also see fewer young people going into the sector. These are problems and features of that history, and this is exactly what the rule should do.

Another clever aspect of this line of argument is that if we view the national development plan as a list, there is nothing to say we cannot reprioritise over the course of a cycle. If we decide there are huge capacity constraints and if it is hard to find labour and workers, we could just redirect the investment towards the projects that have less of a requirement for workers. We would basically be importing technology to where it is more import intensive, more capital intensive and less reliant on workers, and that would help avoid high-inflation outcomes.

Dr. Casey spoke about a rollercoaster, but I think it should be like a train going along. I worked in the construction industry at that time and I could see the frenzy of everybody wanting to do everything, with money no problem. The banks could throw it at you for whatever you wanted to do, people invested in projects and it all ended in tears because it was built on a weak foundation. As for the national development plan, all the projects should be on that train and they should be lined up to be done, because certain projects will fall off carriages if there is a delay or whatever. We should end up with a production line of projects to get done in a timely fashion, and if we have surplus money now, we should hold that at a level but make sure we fill in the cavities as they appear on the ground to keep us going on the train. Is that IFAC's thinking?

Professor Michael McMahon

I would go one step further and highlight a problem. There are occasions, not so much in Ireland but in other countries, where, when entering a recession, governments have wanted to ramp up investment but have not had what we refer to as shovel-ready projects. Having a list, as Dr. Casey referred to, or a national development plan is not a widespread concept, but it is very useful. If everything is lined up and ready to go, and if it is suddenly possible, feasible and sensible to bring the construction of a hospital in a given area up the list because, say, a lot of construction workers are available there or because it makes sense to do it there, we could do that. Where we get into problems is when we say we want to complete these projects and then enter a three-, four- or five-year cycle of planning, trying to agree, locating a site and so on. That would render useless the potential for such a national development plan to stabilise the economy because we would not have the projects ready to go when we could work on them.

That is music to my ears because it is exactly what I think we should be doing. We should bring the projects along through their planning and compliance stages and have them shovel ready. Even now, we should identify projects that would be easy to complete and are shovel ready.

I would share the view our planning system is not fit for purpose to meet the demands that are necessary for the development plans to become a reality rather than be mere aspirations and failures. There is a planning and development Bill in the offing, and I hope those nettles will be grasped seriously by all concerned, on all sides of the House, to ensure there is radical change to put a stop to these logjams, which put huge constraints on the economy.

Professor Michael McMahon

To add to both of those last comments, I might reiterate what Dr. Casey said. In planning, we think about construction and particularly residential construction-----

Infrastructure.

Professor Michael McMahon

Yes, infrastructure, corporate construction and so on, but it is also incredibly useful for a national development plan to have non-construction and non-infrastructure projects on there. If, for example, there were plans where, right now, we could spend money importing electrified vehicles or machines that would not add anything to the domestic demand but which we could just bring in, put down and get to work with to allow us to raise productivity, that would be wonderful-----

Our energy security, however, is not where it needs to be, and much of that is down to the manner in which these projects are delivered. If we look at the potential we have for offshore, a supposed planning authority is being put in place to deal with those applications but, again, our ambition, as great as some might believe it to be, is far behind what it could be and what it could deliver for this economy, to the tune of €300 billion by 2050, which is the size of the economy today. The International Financial Services Centre was probably the quickest and most efficient delivery in decades because the Dublin Docklands Development Authority was put in place to deliver that service and catalyst for the economy, and it was delivered on time. That has not been repeated since. I accept it ended badly, but it achieved what it had set out to do. Had it been left to the authorities that were in place at the time, it might still be going on.

Professor Michael McMahon

I might just clarify that when I used the term "shovel ready", that projects an image of construction, but national development plans and investment do not have to comprise solely construction spending. There can be other types as well. Nevertheless, if we had them ready to go, we would be in a better position. I think we agree on that.

Investment in education and research is paramount to helping us get through perceived dips as they happen.

I thank the witnesses. The council has been critical of the budgetary package set out in the summer economic statement, noting a potential repeat of past mistakes.

Would it be possible for the witnesses to expand on that?

We discussed quite a lot of this earlier.

Professor Michael McMahon

I will give a summary. The basic answer is that we think of a good fiscal policy as ideally being countercyclical. Given where the economy is, it is not an economy that requires a big aggregate stimulus. We are seeing that in the summer economic statement not just for next year, but all the way out to 2026, which is as far as the budgets go. The second aspect that we would point to is the past mistake of relying on a particular form of revenue that is not necessarily reliable and sustainable into the future, and building permanent spending commitments on the back of that if or when that revenue stream disappears. Here, we are referring to the reliance on corporate tax and its concentration in a very small number of corporate entities. What we would hate to see happen again is for that revenue to disappear, because it would coincide typically with a big recession in the country. That is exactly the time the economy needs support, but because of these commitments based on that revenue we would end up having to come up with spending reductions and tax increases in a mix of a repeat of the post-financial crisis austerity which we know was incredibly costly for the country and nobody wants to see repeated. That is the summary.

What steps should the Government take in the upcoming budget?

Professor Michael McMahon

I am going to use the term that Deputy Doherty disagrees with. Is the spending rule a perfect rule and should we use the exact precise figure of 5%? It is a very reasonable amount over the medium term. Therefore, at the very least we would advise the Government to stick within that rule. That involves making choices. As we stated already, it does not mean that the Government cannot support pensioners, public sector workers, those on the lowest incomes and those on fixed incomes. It is possible to support all of those groups within the rule, but you then have to make offsetting decisions elsewhere which might mean less of a tax package, a targeted tax increase or spending cuts in areas where we do not think we are getting high value for money. These are decisions for the Government to make, but it can make those decisions in the budget and on aggregate help avoid the risk of repeating past mistakes.

That brings me to my next question. Would IFAC support the introduction of a genuine living wage rate and possible changes to tax brackets aimed at lower and squeezed middle earners?

Professor Michael McMahon

I have answered similar questions from Deputy Boyd Barrett. I will disappoint Deputy Ryan in the same way I disappointed him. We do not take a stance on individual measures. All I would emphasise is that any such proposals, at least in theory, are possible within the net national spending rule as we call it. This would be a choice that a government of the day could make. That would be for the politics to decide.

Okay. I thank Professor McMahon.

Does Deputy Durkan want to come in again?

Just for a second. Is it not a safe economic policy to follow at all times to be able to intervene and change the impetus if necessary, based on information emerging at the time? The EU made some such policies some years ago. It continued with the policy without necessarily changing it until it was too late. Is it not a good thing for governments at all times to observe the changes taking place, take the necessary steps that need to be taken and implement them in a way that is supportive of the economy and general economic policy?

Professor Michael McMahon

I think the answer is "Yes". I do not see that that is not possible at the moment. Where things go badly wrong and where we are trying to argue in favour of a prudent and sustainable policy is there can be occasions, typically when the economy needs most support, when being able to give that support becomes limited. It can become limited because your fiscal plans are no longer viewed as credible, people do not want to lend you the money or the cost of borrowing that money goes so high as to make it undesirable to do so. A prudent and credible fiscal framework is part of what we believe allows governments to do that and, in the Deputy's words, change the impetus as the economy is evolving and provide supports when it is needed. The counterbalance to that is providing support when it is needed also requires not overstimulating when it is not needed. When the economy is running above full employment it does not need, in aggregate, a massive support. That is important. It is also why we argue so heavily for strengthening the domestic fiscal rules. They are part of the credibility that Ireland has not just for our own discussions. Internationally, when credit rating agencies and other investors are thinking about whether lending to Ireland is a good idea and will be repaid in a sensible way, a credible fiscal framework with institutions that support sensible decision-making and good planning by the government of the day contribute to that ability to take those policy stances that I think the Deputy is endorsing.

Could I ask for a clearer definition of windfall versus core spending or whatever? For example, I would presume that there is a difference between the two. Windfall spending is rising to the occasion when it is necessary to deal with a particular problem in a particular way, given the economic circumstances prevailing at the time. I identify core spending as regular spending that is needed on an ongoing basis, such as investment in capital works, infrastructure, etc. Am I right or am I wrong?

Professor Michael McMahon

We have had a bit of discussion on this already. Four years ago, we had current spending and capital spending, but it was just spending. We introduced the concept of core spending, as opposed to non-core spending, because of the unique nature of Covid. We and the Government thought it was sensible to exclude that spending from those regular accounts. As I have argued already today, I do not believe it is purely related to a temporal nature of spending. It makes no sense to me to link it to where you think the financing of that spending is coming from. Non-core spending should be reserved for spending that we think of as separate from the normal spending and everyday business of the Government. The normal everyday business of the Government involves sometimes providing extra supports, temporary or more permanent. Therefore, it should all just be part of core spending, in our view.

How does IFAC view the principles, which I think are correct, of setting savings aside, whether it is called a rainy day fund, a sovereign fund or whatever? Having regard to the degree to which Ireland is a small country affected by economic shifts and changes outside the country to a large extent, how does the IFAC see such funds evolving? For instance, there are those who say that we need to spend the money now to alleviate the immediate problem. There are those who also say that we may have a bigger problem to resolve in the future, hence the need for ongoing reserves.

Professor Michael McMahon

As we have set out many times before this committee and in our various reports, we are completely supportive of the Government's proposals to establish a savings vehicle. A lot of details about how that is set up remain and, as with many things, the devil is in the detail.

As a conceptual idea, the idea is that we take excess corporation tax that accrues from activities outside of Ireland and remove it from domestic demand by not spending it today, and we build up an investment fund that creates a new revenue stream into the future that we can use, not to completely eradicate other challenges we have coming down, but at least it puts a reasonable dent in some of the challenges such as the increase in age-related spending costs, which are in the order of 7% to 9% of GNI* by 2050. That is a huge extra burden that would be in future core spending, and in future core spending it will give the governments of the day - and it is not that far away - a much tougher set of choices to make. If we make a number of decisions now, and they are relatively gradual over the next decade, we could build up a substantial pot that puts a dent in that and eases the burden to allow the governments of the day, as the Government of today can debate, how the normal core spending and revenue measures should be balanced across the needs. We have supported that. We support it particularly for age-related spending and, therefore, we look forward to seeing the specific plans that come out hopefully with the Government's budget 2024.

Many of Professor McMahon's proposals, and I have attended these meetings throughout the summer and before the recess many times, carry the wish, and I can understand that from past experience, of spreading the tax burden or increasing the tax burden. My question then follows, does that affect inflation? By spreading the burden, does it affect inflation to a greater or lesser extent given the experiences of the past?

Professor Michael McMahon

The type of fiscal policy we argue for is one that is also broadly supportive of the monetary policy, which means that it does not try to fight against monetary policy such that when the economy is inflationary and running above potential, it tries to take some demand out of the economy and at times when the economy is weak, it tries to provide support. Deputy Canney's train argument for investment can just be applied to the whole economy. If Government spending can provide the extra support when it needs it and counter that with providing less support when it is not needed then overall inflation should be more stable and, therefore, we do not get these so-called volatility spikes that we had in the last couple of years. Now, it does not mean that inflation will be perfectly controlled? Ireland is a small, open economy. It will be affected by what happens on international markets in ways that the domestic economy will just have to deal with. However, it can at least contribute on the domestic sides of those inflationary pressures to smooth them out and hopefully lessen the burden of that volatile roller-coaster of inflation that we could face.

Is Professor McMahon satisfied that inflation is being reduced to the greatest extent possible by the measures taken so far, which are essentially increases in interest rates?

Professor Michael McMahon

Increases in interest rates will put downward pressure on inflation. As we have argued, we believe fiscal policy, as stated in the summer economic statement, will be adding to inflationary pressures over the next year. It is, therefore, working against the inflationary increases.

Professor Michael McMahon

We estimate that in and of themselves, by breaching the rule, probably 1% on the price level by 2026. If we were to take a countercyclical policy, however, it could do the reverse and change the price level by an order of 2%. Spread over two years, that is about a half percent per year.

I thank Professor McMahon.

I thank Professor McMahon and our guests very much for their very comprehensive contributions and responses to the questions and the detail they went in to in order to enlighten the members on their queries. I thank them very much indeed and wish them well. I know Professor McMahon has to get away to make a flight. We will let him go and conclude this session.

We will suspend proceedings for a few moments to let our next guests come in.

Sitting suspended at 6.54 p.m. and resumed at 7.01 p.m.

I welcome Dr. Tom McDonnell and Mr. Ciarán Nugent from the Nevin Economic Research Institute, NERI.

Before I begin, I must again explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I again remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I invite Dr. McDonnell to give his opening statement to the meeting.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

We thank the Cathaoirleach and the members and staff of the committee for the invitation to appear to present our views on the economy, the budgetary package and compositional issues. I am accompanied by my colleague, Ciarán Nugent.

A correct understanding of whether the economy is overheating, in recession or somewhere else along the cycle matters greatly for budgetary policy and for the appropriate fiscal stance taken by Government. If the economy is in a downswing, it makes sense for Government to stimulate the economy in a Keynesian fashion. The opposite is true if the economy is overheating. Unfortunately, Irish Governments have a long and unhappy history of pro-cyclical budgets.

Our analysis is that the economy is close to overheating. While it is difficult to estimate whether something is overheating or to definitively answer these questions, that is our broad sense of where it may be at the moment. Employment rates and hours worked are at or close to record levels, with employment growing by 3.5% in the year to the second quarter. The unemployment rate of 4.1% and the long-term unemployment rate of 1.2% are also highly suggestive of a tight labour market. There are evident labour shortages and capacity constraints in areas such as construction and ICT, although a caveat is that the most recent release from the CSO just this week indicated that the labour market was starting to soften a little bit. Consumption and retail sales continue to grow at reasonably strong rates year on year. Demand has been supported by the winding down of savings from their pandemic era highs, as well as by fiscal stimulus. What has been happening is that we have experienced a period of pent-up demand post Covid as people run down their savings to normal levels to a large extent, and that process has now essentially ended.

Price inflation remains a significant issue, however, with the consumer price index, CPI, increasing 6.3% year on year in August. In particular, there is concern that inflation is becoming sticky, with core inflation at 6.4%. Real wage growth was negative in the second quarter as hourly and weekly earnings growth failed to keep up with inflation. We are confident that positive real wage growth will resume by the end of this year, although this is predicated on no major upward shocks to inflation.

The outlook for the next six to 12 months is mixed. Tightening monetary policy is exerting downward pressure on trading partner economies and will gradually depress demand in the Irish economy. Consumer sentiment indicates a broadly negative perception of future economic activity and prospects, amidst high inflation and pressure on household finances. Construction and manufacturing purchasing managers’ indexes, PMIs, imply a broadly stagnant outlook, although the services PMI suggests some positive growth momentum in that area. Overall, there is a clear sense of winners and losers. Net household wealth has reached record levels and corporate profits are healthy but deprivation rates are on the rise.

The short-run fiscal position is healthy. This is mainly due to the surprisingly robust and potentially unsustainable performance of the corporation tax yield. The risks underlying reliance on an elevated corporation tax yield are well understood, with circa €12 billion in receipts potentially transitory in nature. Even so, the shift to a 15% rate will likely further boost receipts in 2024. Ireland is expected to be just one of two euro area countries to run a surplus in 2024 while Ireland’s debt level, expressed as a percentage of GNI*, is below the euro area average. However, it should also be noted that with the economy and labour market performing so strongly, the structural budget balance is actually somewhat worse than the headline budget balance.

The medium- to long-term fiscal position is extremely challenging. Age-related expenditure is projected to increase by 3.3% of GNI* from the start of this decade up to 2030 and will rise further in the following decades. Climate action will lead to diminished revenues from fossil fuels and to greater expenditure in a range of areas while the corporation tax yield is extremely vulnerable to evolving tax games and decisions made in other countries. Ireland’s per capita public spending is low relative to peer high-income EU countries. To meet the challenges of the future, for example, demographics, decarbonisation and digitalisation, we will need to increase public investment in health and social care, childcare, education and training, energy and water infrastructure, broadband, public transport and the direct costs arising from demographic change and from the green and digital transitions.

Overall, we strongly agree with the analysis of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, COTW, that Government revenue must increase materially as a percentage of national income. Tax cuts are obviously problematic in this context, particularly when we are so reliant on potentially transitory corporation tax receipts. It would, therefore, be unwise to use windfall receipts to fund current spending increases or permanent tax cuts. Adjusted measures of the budget balance that exclude these receipts are, therefore, helpful in properly framing the debate.

The Department of Finance is proposing to use the transitory receipts to set up a State savings vehicle to part pay for future ageing costs. There is certainly some merit to this strategy. Once the fund is large enough, the annual return will effectively amount to a new revenue stream, akin to a new form of tax receipt coming in, that reduces medium to long-term pressure to increase taxes. However, there is scope to do this and to set up one or more infrastructure funds, for example, to support the green transition over the next 20 years and potentially to address the housing crisis. Regardless of how we use the transitory funds, we will still need significant structural revenue increases over the medium term to pay for future ageing and other costs.

Budgetary policy should be countercyclical. When the economy is overheating, it is generally prudent to adopt a relatively tight fiscal policy and vice versa during periods of underperformance. The budget, in its current form, will modestly add to overheating and to inflation, while proposed income tax cuts will disproportionately benefit the better-off.

We note the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council’s most recent estimate that standstill costs for core current spending will amount to €4.6 billion. This exceeds the summer economic statement’s proposed current spending increase of €4.3 billion, which has implications for public services. Crucially, the fiscal rules allow us to increase spending by as much as we want each year provided there are offsetting measures that increase taxes.

Clearly, there is a tension between successfully addressing the cost-of-living crisis and simultaneously avoiding further inflationary pressure, yet cost-of-living pressures are not universal. Household savings are above the historical average and household net wealth is at record levels. Median net wealth was in excess of €300,000 for owner-occupiers in 2020 but just €5,300 for renters. We need to protect low-income households from cost of living pressures, not half-heartedly through once-off measures, as was done last year, but through structural uplifts in child, working age and old age payments that adequately benchmark against wages and the cost of living. Increases to all welfare payments should fully compensate for the surge in price inflation that we have experienced. The minimum wage should be increased to a genuine living wage. In addition, targeted reductions in end-user costs for public services such as transport, health and education would help to alleviate cost of living pressures without stoking inflation.

Once-off measures only make sense if we expect the inflation rate to be negative. This strategy should not be repeated in budget 2024.

A related point is that we need to move to multi-annual budgeting, and to an holistic and evidence-based approach to incomes policy that is actually based on adequacy and the cost of living. We support the commission's proposals for a second tier of child benefit and an enhanced working family payment based only on income. However, we strongly caution against tax cuts in budget 2024. The evidence is clear that cuts to income tax or the USC will be highly regressive in the sense that higher income households will disproportionately benefit from changes to rates and bands. Finally, tax cuts of this nature will not just make it more difficult to meet pre-existing and future challenges but they will also be procyclical and inflationary.

I thank Dr. McDonnell for his comprehensive presentation and call Deputy Durkan.

I thank our guests for coming here and giving their expert opinion. To what extent should there be a link with the retention of reserves for future emergencies? Given that our total national debt is €225 billion or thereabouts, should there be a link and policies put in place? Are we putting in place policies? I think that we are. Should we put in place policies that make a provision for the future in the event of external forces negatively affecting us?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

The short answer is "Yes". We had a rainy day fund for a while. We have corporation tax windfalls but we do not know whether they will be transitory. The issue is they may not be transitory but they could be and we are also very reliant upon half a dozen companies. Just a single company's corporation tax yield fell in August and that has had a very large and significant effect. We have an opportunity to sequester away what we think are transitory receipts into a number of different funds perhaps. One would be a savings fund, and this could be the majority of it, invested abroad and, over the 2030s and 2040s, starts to generate a dividend that goes a little bit of the way towards paying for ageing costs.

In addition, our infrastructure is very poor relative to other countries in western Europe and, therefore, we need to protect our capital spending over the medium and long term because it is always the first thing that is cut during a recession. If we have that in an independent fund that is used year on year, that is positive; similarly, on the housing side, to ensure that we have a steady run through of housing supply year-on-year.

Let us remember that we are talking about tens of billions of euro, potentially, in these transitory receipts so we can do multiple things. I agree with the Deputy that there should be some form of rainy day fund that is triggered when we enter a recession, which could be caused by an international war, another pandemic or simply a major recession in a trade partner. We could have a fund that would kick in automatically if, say, the unemployment rate reached a certain point or modified domestic demand fell by a certain amount. That could be then used and made available to Government to use in the next budget or immediately, if necessary, to provide supports to households. In those instances infrastructure spending is not necessarily needed because infrastructure sometimes takes years to come on line. In that case immediate help is needed for households to stimulate demand in the economy in a countercyclical way. That could come through tax cuts but it could come through income supports for lower-income households, universal payments across the board or through another mechanism so, yes, I agree with the Deputy.

Do we need to continually closely monitor our borrowing capacity as opposed to borrowing? I am mindful of the things that have happened in the past when we arrived at a situation where we had no borrowing capacity and nobody would lend to us because we had no credit. I do not blame anybody for that but it happened and very suddenly. To what degree does Dr. McDonnell think that could happen again and what might be the contributing factors?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Yes, it could happen again. It is not necessarily the case that we will be shut out of the markets again but it is absolutely the case that there will be future recessions. Recessions tend to happen every decade or so and smaller recessions can happen more often than that. We do not want to be in a situation when the economy is running hot that there is a balanced budget because that means there will be a very significant deficit when things go wrong, and things can turn against us. In the case of Ireland our budgetary position is actually one of the most benign in the euro area. That has partially to do with the excess corporation tax windfall receipts, which could reverse and is the first thing that could go wrong. If two or three of these very large multinationals decide to move intellectual property assets to other countries, that could have a significant impact upon our budget. That is the point of not spending it and sequestering it away because we are worried that it might run out. That is the first big risk.

The second big risk is that there will be a global economic recession that perhaps emanates from China, the United States or something in the euro area. That is always a risk. In that situation we want to be in a position where we have not been pursuing procyclical policies or not running deficits during the good times so that we are in a position that we can naturally use wer automatic stabilisers, which reduce tax receipts and provide more welfare payments without endangering our ability to borrow on the markets. Of course, even having a savings fund that can be tapped into gives we a certain degree of protection against that. The rainy day fund helps in that regard by allowing us to provide immediate supports without immediately having to tap the market.

It is always a concern but I do not see Ireland being particularly at risk no more than other European countries in terms of climate change and so forth. However, because we are such a globalised economy and maybe coming into a cycle of deglobalisation, that has particular implications for the Irish economy, which we know to be a very volatile and small open economy. It is something we need to be cognisant of and watch on a year-on-year basis. This is also the reason we should do multi-annual budgeting and look out into the future to see what the budgets look like once we pay for inflation costs, public sector pay, welfare and so forth.

I agree with Dr. McDonnell. To prepare for shocks, we need to refer to trends on an ongoing basis with a view to trying to avoid the kind of shocks that we have had in the past. Does he think that our current national debt functions in the proper direction and is proportionately dropping according to the strength of the economy? Giving that the growth of the economy will have an impact on our borrowing capacity at any time in the future, is he satisfied that we have made sufficiently stable provisions?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

The debt level is going in a positive direction. We have a growing population, a falling debt and, broadly speaking, the economy growing year-on-year. One silver lining of a high level of inflation is that it reduces the value of debt. We are still running budgetary surpluses so the net debt is falling and this is all happening at a time the economy is growing quite quickly.

Again, the debt is moving in a positive direction. We have one of the highest levels of debt on a per person basis in the world. We are also one of the richest countries in the world and that means we are better able to manage high levels of debt. We have high levels of debt but we also have high levels of income so we can manage the debt interest repayments that we are required to pay year-on-year.

It is true that the cost of borrowing is moving up. That is partially related to the ECB's tightening of monetary policy, which affects all countries. We have missed that little window of borrowing when interest rates were almost zero. That would have been a better time to borrow than now but Ireland is in a very unusual spot with transitory corporation tax receipts, if indeed they are transitory, to effectively be our borrowing above and beyond what we would normally want to do.

In a sense, the only borrowing we need to do now is to roll over the debt, which is a very good position in which to be. Given this happens over a very long period, we currently have a very low average level of interest payments and it is only over time that those higher interest rates will really start to affect us. Overall, the position is relatively benign as much as these things can be, certainly compared with peer countries. We absolutely have made mistakes in the past. We are very cognisant of that and we urge that we not make mistakes by way of two inflationary budgets, say, or cutting taxes when we know we will have to increase them again in a few years. We worry about that for sure. Overall, however, it would be remiss and wrong of me to say the position is particularly bad at the moment.

I have a final question. What would the witnesses say to people on the average industrial wage or on €50,000 or thereabouts who complain, with justification, that they have little spending capacity, are facing difficulties in cost-of-living matters and that these issues are continuing? What is the best means of addressing the situation of that particular group? On the basis of discussions today and in recent weeks, we are aware of people who are on an income too high to qualify for a local authority mortgage and too low to qualify for a mortgage from the banks. These people are forced into very high rental costs because they have to live somewhere. That is a growing problem at the moment. The only thing that is possible for them to do is to rent in a very high market. As a result, they leave themselves with very little spending capacity to meet the normal cost-of-living issues.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

We saw from the Eurobarometer data this spring that approximately 23% of Irish respondents felt they were worse off this year than they were last year, with only 13% saying they felt better off and the remainder feeling they were about the same. Workers have taken a real wage cut in the past year or two. The minimum wage is further away from a living wage in real terms than it was even in 2018. Everywhere, people are struggling. There is a mismatch, as we have discussed, in regard to taxation and the need for a rainy day fund, as against the need to have a balance with current spending to tackle cost-of-living issues. The problem is all in housing and it is particularly acute in Dublin, where, as the Deputy said, a worker on €50,000 or even two workers on €50,000 each in the same household will struggle to buy a house. They will be subject to excessive rents that are ultimately unsustainable. Public sector wages are down in real terms, as is the minimum wage. There is a balance as well, as Dr. McDonnell alluded to, in that we have a very globalised economy and there are competitiveness issues. Increases in wages will help, particularly for households in deprivation. Ultimately, however, we have a high-cost economy, which means the long-term strategy is to bring down the cost of living in order to tackle the inadequate purchasing power of wages. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare recommended a bunch of different areas in which to raise more taxes, the revenues of which it recommended be spent on areas like housing, childcare and public transport in order to bring down the cost of living.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

There are a number of ways to approach this. The fundamental problem is that the cost of living is too high. In effect, we have the highest cost of living in Europe or at least in the EU. What can the Government do to reduce the cost of living quickly and in a way that helps people at the bottom and not just those in the top half of the distribution? If we increase the standard rate cut-off point for income tax, it is really just helping those in the top half of the earnings distribution. Even if USC is cut, it is a very badly targeted way to help people. However, there are other things that can be done. Our view is that we should focus on the user cost of public services, including education, health, public transport and so on. It is about focusing really on appropriations-in-aid. We know that lower-income households tend disproportionately to use public services, and a lot of these costs are fixed costs. Therefore, focusing in that way is more progressive and will help the households that are more in need.

I accept the point about housing. It is very much a wicked problem at the moment that will take years to solve. We perhaps need a change of strategy. Overall, we would say we should focus on universal basic services and also on benchmarking fixed incomes to protect households at the lower end of the income distribution. This would involve things like reforming the working family payment to include single individuals, making it much more generous, tapering it and making it non-conditional upon particular hours worked or whatever it might be. That kind of strategy would be helpful and better targeted than universal payments or income tax cuts.

We all accept we have choices. We cannot have our debt go too high and get too bad. We must make choices. That is the reason we are concerned about tax cuts and the picture in the longer term. At some point, we will have to start increasing taxes. The more we reduce them now, the harder that problem will be as we get into the late 2020s and the 2030s, when it will start to become a very big issue. That is how we would respond to the person on €50,000.

I have a couple of points to raise on foot of what the witnesses have said. It was acknowledged that we have the highest cost of living in Europe, wages are not where they should be and there is an ongoing issue regarding a public pay deal and public finances provision. We cannot have a situation whereby if wages are increased, taxes are also increased. There has to be an adjustment there. Dr. McDonnell said he would rather see improvements in welfare than one-off targeted measures. However, because of the nature of the cost-of-living crisis and its linkage to the energy crisis and the war in Ukraine, the Government has sought to target those areas where households can benefit, including by way of reductions in public transport costs, the cost of healthcare, including, for example, overnight hospital charges, dealing with the cost of education, with free books and so forth, and the provision of the one-off energy payments. Of course, those on welfare payments should be targeted and helped. They should be the first port of call. Of course, there should be improvements in their payments and in pensioners' payments. However, as Deputy Durkan said, there are households that are also feeling the crunch that do not have the same access to supports. They need specific, targeted help, whether with education costs, such as by reducing fees, or otherwise. How does that sit against Dr. McDonnell's contention that there should not be one-off payments and all supports should be geared towards welfare recipients? With all due respect, that means there is a cohort of people who cannot benefit.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I absolutely take the Chairman's point. Perhaps I am not articulating my position properly. We should see the welfare component, and the benchmarking thereof, as an automatic thing that happens and is looked at empirically to assess adequacy for all different households. It is most relevant for welfare payments, which include pensions, child benefit and, potentially and ideally, second-tier chid benefit, and all the working age payments. They would, in essence, be linked to an adequacy benchmark over the longer term.

We agree that the measures that the Cathaoirleach described in terms of reducing the cost of public services were good but we would like to see them being made permanent rather than once-off. A once-off reduction in cost is good but inflation was at 7.8% in 2022. Rather than saying it is 5.4% this year, it is actually 13.2%. Then it is 16.4%. The once-off payment is gone and one's cost are still higher.

I do not mean to interrupt Dr. McDonnell but it came up in our report relating to our interpretation, opinions and recommendations following the Commission on Taxation report that these measures can be subsequently measured as to whether they had the desired effect or impact. We could increase the usage of public transport which, in turn, increases the capacity of public transport because of the increased revenue, even at a reduced rate. It is a less-is-more sort of argument. Maybe that is something we could learn from, that the one-off measures have the potential to become part of core spending, but only if we can afford them in a way in which the State can make that long-term commitment.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I suppose what we are saying is if the measure was worth doing on a once-off basis because we think it is good policy, it is something that we should be thinking about doing as a policy measure full time. Therefore, we reduce that cost of public transport and we provide free school books in perpetuity rather than just because we had a high level of inflation one year whereas, hypothetically, an energy credit as a once-off measure would presumably not be continued in perpetuity as a social transfer for everyone. Some of those measures might be worth doing in 2026 and 2027 because we think they are good policy and, therefore, one says that one thinks this is a good idea, if one does, and then it becomes part of core current spending year on year but something that is a once-off payment, while helpful at the time, once it is gone, it is gone and inflation is continuing. The prices are going up and up every year and it is not helping those households in years to come. Rather than using up the precious fiscal resources on the once-off measures, we should be baking in a system that is sustainable based upon measures that are good long-term policy.

Would Dr. McDonnell welcome the social partnership model to help and assist with that?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

As for whether a social partnership model would help and assist with that, it is certainly helpful to have many voices from civil society engaging in that debate. That includes, obviously, trade unions, employers - but also people from the green movement, farmers and people from the community and voluntary sector. We have the national economic dialogue, but that is a once-off set-piece event whereas we could have a process of looking at budget strategy over three years, five years or ten years and let us have a national conversation about this in a safe space where people are not shouting at each other.

We came through and responded relatively well to the pandemic, to Brexit and to the war. The transitionary revenues assisted in that. There is no point in denying it, but there is recognition that we cannot allow that to become part of the core. There is a realisation, thankfully, on the part of all parties and none, that the vehicle for saving and reinvesting based on its success is the model. Now that we are heading into a low-carbon economy, an ageing demographic and quite big changes for the economy to deal with against the backdrop of possible global slowdown - Dr. Tom McDonnell mentioned China and others - is now an opportune time for that model, or at least its potential, to be debated?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I believe so. The transformations that the economy is likely to go through over the next 20 years are difficult to-----

Are far greater than what-----

Dr. Tom McDonnell

-----fully predict. Obviously, de-globalisation is likely to be part of that. There is technological transformation, from artificial intelligence, AI, to automation to nanotechnology. It is difficult to predict how all of these areas will affect the labour market and each of us. Obviously, climate change will have a transformative impact on certain sectors of the economy and those will be challenging conversations. Demographics, of course, involve an enormous fiscal cost in terms of healthcare and pensions but also in terms of the fact that we will have less tax revenue because there will be fewer people working or at least fewer people between 18 and 66. These are significant political challenges and having that wider debate that people can contribute to would be helpful. These are difficult decisions for people to make themselves but having that understanding of how it affects agrifood, ICT, workers, carers or whoever it might be and having those conversations as part of a broader national discussion about what we want the economy and society to look like in 2050 is something that would be a good innovation and that Ireland could lead on. I suppose that is a long way of saying "Yes" to the Cathaoirleach's question.

I thank Dr. McDonnell. I call Deputy Canney.

I thank the Chair and thank Dr. McDonnell for his presentation. I listened to it with interest.

Going back to what Deputy Durkan was talking about, the person earning €50,000 and not making any progress, financially or for their time, I come across cases where college fees become a problem. Children are going to college and it becomes a huge burden. It involves thousands of euro. If they have two or three children, it can be a multiplying factor. Would Dr. McDonnell see it being reasonable to take the cost of college fees out of the system for people earning up to a certain level ad infinitum, not only on a one-year basis, so that one targets supports to people who are working, who are paying their taxes and who seem to be paying for everything out of their net income? That is the biggest problem.

Another area that we often forget is where we have money now and the problem could be how we spend it. If one takes people with disabilities who have a particular additional cost of living with that disability, forgetting about the normal or abnormal cost-of-living increases, as the Indecon report has stated, is now not the time to put in place a payment for people with disabilities that will be there forever because the disability, unfortunately, will be there for as long as people are alive?

I hear what Dr. McDonnell says about the working family payment, that it might not be called the working family payment and might be called the working person payment so that single people can benefit from it, because people on lower-to-middle incomes are actually the people who are getting caught for everything. In that case, would Dr. McDonnell agree that it is time to raise the tax bands so that they can earn more, without having to pay as much tax on it, up to a certain level and target not only low income but also middle income earners who need that lift at present?

If one takes infrastructure and how to deal with that, we spoke about the national development plan in an earlier session. One is talking about investing, but not everything on the one day and then having boom and bust. For instance, I got an email the other day saying there are not enough of train carriages on trains. If we were to buy more train carriages now, it would not be a big capital cost. One can buy them, I am sure, fairly quickly. One could end up creating more capacity, as the Chairman said, in having more people using a system at a lower cost yet getting a better return for one's investment. There is such investment that I would like to see being made in a budget. It also needs to be planned, not only to do that in this budget and then see what will happen next year.

We need to be looking at a five-year plan. I do not know what the witnesses think of my ideas but those are some of them.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I thank the Deputy. There are a lot of very good ideas in that. On his final point, he talked about five-year plans and all of that. That is how we should do budgets. We should have rolling five-year budgets that are always looking ahead. In many ways, we should take the drama out of budgets and make them boring ongoing discussions and evolving things that are happening over time.

What would the media do then?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I know; I would miss it terribly. The point is that that is a good way to manage the public finances over a medium- to long-term picture. It really shows us things then. For example, this is budget 2024 but if we were also looking at budget 2028 we can start to see those ageing impacts on the economy. We would be looking at a slightly slower level of growth and what is happening. It is not just focused on whether we had a transitory tax boom this year because maybe we will not in 2028. I think that is helpful.

On the Deputy's points about disabilities, I could not agree more. We would see the disability allowance as being one of the working-age payments, with unemployment benefit being the other major one for working-age people. Of course, that applies to everyone, not just working-age people. I completely agree with the Deputy. We need to fully account for the cost of disability on a day-to-day basis for people who are experiencing a disability. That would almost be top of the list of things we would promote in budget 2024 with regard to resolving that issue, which has been a problem for a while now in terms of adequacy of income.

We also have an issue around people who are experiencing disabilities having access to the labour market. That would relate to things like easier working from home options, flexible working and things like that. The public sector can lead on this by providing a very safe and good environment to become a champion for bringing people experiencing disabilities into the labour force. It does not have to be a on a five-day-a-week basis or a 40-hour week basis but finding some way to bring people in if they are able to do that and want to do that is very important. We need a strategy for including people experiencing disability in the labour market and in society. It is not just about giving them adequate incomes.

I take the Deputy's point on the working-family payment. It is about increasing incomes for people on the lower to middle levels. The tax commission proposed that it would be income-tapered, so the amount of money a person would get would drip down as their market earnings increased. Therefore, that would keep the marginal effective tax rates because if you lose income as your income goes up, that is effectively a tax.

The Deputy talked about increasing tax bands for lower and middle-income people. Our broader point about taxes is that on a net basis, we do not think there should be tax cuts but that does not mean there is not scope for reform within the tax system at all. We are not saying that. Certainly it is a feature of the system rather than a bug that people on low incomes pay extremely low income tax and USC levels compared to people on lower incomes in other EU countries. They are very low effective rates but we see that as a good thing. The marginal effective tax rates are very low. Why would we have high tax rates on lower-income workers when on the other side we may then have to give them additional welfare payments just to keep them out of deprivation? It just does not make sense. There is certainly scope for movement at the bottom of the distribution. Mr. Nugent may have views on that as well.

Regarding college fees, we would see that as effectively a State subsidy. It is a subsidy like any other welfare subsidy in many respects. It is giving families money to do something because they are in a particular circumstance. We want their child to be able to have the opportunity to go to college. We do not want them not to go to college because it is too costly. Again, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare said that these tings should be income-tapered, so it should not be a binary "Yes" or "No" but a reduced subsidy as a person goes up the income distribution. Obviously the more generous the State is on that the more costly it is and then that becomes a budgetary issue. That would be my sense of how you could approach it.

On the infrastructure and the train card, there are a lot of ways on the infrastructure side that we could do relatively cheap things that could be quite helpful. It does not always have to be big enormous projects and in many cases it will not be. Mr. Nugent may have some follow-on comments.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

On how the minimum wage is set, I mentioned earlier that in 2022 the share of workers in material deprivation went from one in 12 to one in eight, which is an increase of 50% or 60%, even with the employment growth. Obviously lower-wage earners, by definition, are the ones struggling.

The announcement will be made in the next couple of weeks as to what the 2024 living wage will be, based on a minimum essential standing of living. At the moment, there is a gap of about €2.50 an hour. Over a 40-hour week, there is about a €100 difference between a minimum-wage worker and the living wage, as set by the adequacy of looking at the cost of a basket of minimum essential goods. The number of workers in that bracket between minimum wage and that living wage is probably somewhere in the region of 10% or 12% of Irish workers. By addressing that and setting a better or higher floor for minimum-wage workers, a lot of those issues in terms of the State having to intervene, etc., will be less of an issue.

Does Deputy Conway-Walsh want to come in there?

I thank Dr. McDonnell for his statement. I agree that how we assess the current economic situation is key to determining the correct policy response in the budget. Dr. McDonnell also stated that demand has been sustained by the winding down of saving, and fiscal stimulus. He went on to talk about how the economic outlook for the next 12 months is mixed, with the global economic environment and monetary policy leading to depressed demand in the Irish economy. That wage growth is negative and there is negative consumer sentiment and stagnant construction and manufacturing. It does not scream of an overheating economy. I want to get to the bottom of this. Could Dr. McDonnell could elaborate on why he so categorically states that the economy is overheating? That seems to be the argument for not spending anything.

Dr. McDonnell argues that the tight labour market shows that the economy is overheating as well. Since Covid, the labour market across the western world has obviously been tight. As far as I am aware, the standard economic view is that the employment level is a lagging indicator. In Dr. McDonnell's view, is the unemployment rate typical of a leading indicator of an economic slowdown or a lagging indicator? What I am trying to get at, I suppose, is the real wage growth we have already referred to. There are a lot of mixed messages from the figures that are coming out and Dr. McDonnell sums it up well when he says: "Overall, there is a clear sense of winners and losers. Net household wealth has reached record levels and corporate profits are healthy but deprivation rates are on the rise." That is often masked by the picture that there are all these savings in households. Dr. McDonnell might speak to that as well in terms of the breakdown of households and where the savings are concentrated.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

That is a very good analysis. In terms of where the savings are located, the Central Bank has done some analysis on this. It has found that they are disproportionately in the hands of the wealthiest households, by and large. The distributional gains have benefited the people towards the top of the distribution. A lot of the gains of the increasing net wealth, of course, are associated with the increase in house prices. Obviously, if someone is a homeowner, their wealth is likely to have very much increased over the last few years. If they are a renter, on the other hand, they are continuing to fall further and further behind. Indeed, the figures that we showed, and that are clear from the CSO, have that big divide in terms of homeowners versus renters as being a winner-loser dynamic.

Obviously, if one is in the middle and one half-owns one's house or one still has a mortgage, one is in a more mixed position at the moment because of interest rate increases.

As to why we think the economy is overheating, I would caveat that a little. Broadly, employment rates have never been higher overall, our hours worked have never been higher and our unemployment rate is very low by historical standards so ostensibly, that screams an economy that must be overheating. However, an economy can be overheating and have a mixed outlook ahead. The concern is that we are towards the top of the cycle. If we do fall, that would imply that there was indeed scope for a more inflationary budget. Possibly none of the downside risks will actually come to pass. That said, some of them have already come to pass in terms of higher interest rates. Hopefully the ECB will not go any further in what it deems is necessary because it has certainly been damaging to the economy. If we are moving away from a position of overheating that would certainly justify a more expansionary budget than one based on an overheating analysis. However, capacity constraints are still there at the moment and that has implications for value for money from infrastructure spending, for example. I personally think that infrastructure spending should be, and needs to be, increased and that we can increase the number of construction workers that are available. We cannot just say, "There are no construction workers". If construction is significantly attractive as a career for people, over a two to four year period people will go into it. That is the labour market responding, with people coming through the system. People will come into Ireland and so forth. Obviously, the housing crisis creates particular issues in terms of people coming into Ireland because the houses are not there, which is a chicken and egg problem.

The Deputy is right that employment numbers are generally not considered to be a leading indicator. Generally, if a business realises it is doing badly, it might start to cut back on investment first of all. One starts to see it in the performance indicator monitors, PIMs, and the confidence indicators and almost as a last step will workers be let go. Most employers do not want to let people go, particularly at the moment when we have a tight labour market. They may feel that if they let people go they will not be able to get them back because they will be able to walk into another job. In that sense, employment is usually considered a lagging indicator. The impacts of monetary policy are also considered to be something that happens with a lag and that lag can be anything from six to 18 months. That is a very large range because monetary policy is essentially a hammer. It is hammering down on the economy and hits certain households very badly while having almost no impact on other households. We are not experiencing the full consequences of the interest rate rise as of yet. It is likely to have a downward impact on investment and consumption and so forth.

To go back to the overheating issue, one could argue that inflation is a supply-side phenomenon. That is true to a large extent in Europe whereas it is more of a demand-side phenomenon in the United States, although now we are starting to see demand-side impacts as well, with prices ratcheting up because of that. There are high levels of demand in the economy, higher than they have ever been. That will inevitably have an effect. If people are going to restaurants and hotels, and it is generally people with high levels of savings who are doing that, that is creating extra demand.

There is no objectively correct answer to the Deputy's question. Our analysis, although Mr. Nugent may have a slightly different view, is that we are at a position of capacity constraints which would imply overheating. At the same time, however, I am saying that the forward-looking outlook may change. What I am telling the committee is that I think we are here, there is a concern that it might go down but that is not a guarantee. I do not mean a recession; I simply mean that we will glide down to lower levels of growth. That said, a recession is always a possibility but I am not quoting myself on that at the moment. Mr. Nugent may have something to add to that.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

We discussed this earlier in terms of where those constraints are and I do not want to disagree too much with what has been said. The employment rate is equal to the highest level reached in quarter 3 of 2007, which was the record. However, the groups to which this applies are different. Younger people are less likely to be in employment at the moment than they were in 2007 and older people, especially women, are more likely to be in employment. The average reach is about what it was then.

In terms of specific infrastructure areas that we need to address in construction, there is capacity there. Wages have not kept up with inflation. Overheating is a highly theoretical concept, based on the undefined concepts of a natural rate of unemployment and of full employment. We have been hearing a lot that we are past full employment over the last while which I personally consider a very good analysis.

Some of my own research is on pathways to employment and third level education. There is a good argument that if the labour market opportunities in construction were better, or at least similar to what they were 15 or 20 years ago, then we would have fewer people opting for third level education. There is also a good argument that we do not need as many people in third level and that a rebalancing is required to attract more young school leavers into construction. Young males in particular are down in terms of their participation in the labour market compared to that time. There are constraints and issues there but there are certain areas where, from my perspective, we are not overheating.

The debate in this area is ongoing. Myself and Dr. McDonnell regularly discuss the job vacancy rate as an indicator of how hot we are getting, how dynamic the Irish labour market is and how much opportunity there is out there but we are consistently below the EU average, even with our positive numbers over the last two years. It is still the case that there are not actually that many vacancies in a relative sense vis-á-vis Europe. Wages are not keeping up with inflation and the debate will continue.

One could say that people have never worked so hard, so why is it that we have such rising rates of deprivation? That is the challenge. When one looks at home owners in the context of interest rates, there have been ten hikes and we are asking households to absorb hundreds of euro in extra payments per month. It is just not sustainable. Something has to crack. Our guests have talked about skills and construction. Obviously we need investment targeted there and we have €1 billion in the National Training Fund, NTF.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

On housing, one thing I did not mention is that the share of adults still living at home is growing every year. In certain age groups, particularly for adults under 35, we are similar to Spain and Italy now whereas 15 years ago we would have considered that to be a clear indicator of an economy that is not working for workers. Clearly construction and housing are the big issues driving the deprivation rates and cost-of-living issues.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Just to add one point to that, in terms of labour market policy we need to make construction a much more attractive sector. Historically, it has been considered very volatile and that is certainly the case in Ireland because of what happened in the lead up to 2008.

Not enough people are choosing construction as the occupation they will take on at 18 years of age.

My colleague, Mr. Nugent, is doing his PhD on over-qualification in the Irish economy. He can talk about which sectors are generating overqualified workers. Even within the labour market, it is wrong to think of it as a block. Particular people have certain skills. Certain sectors and functions within the economy do different things. In my view, we have an insufficient number of people who have construction skills. One of our public policy goals at the moment should be to increase the supply of construction workers and make it a really attractive sector. That can be done through dealing with issues like bogus self-employment, making sure that wages in the sector are sufficiently strong and signalling to people that it is not going to be a volatile or a boom-or-bust sector in terms of housing or whatever that might be. A long-term infrastructure plan can be part of that.

We need to signal to people that areas like retrofitting are going to be the jobs of the future for the next 20 years and that if they skill up in that area they will have a guaranteed job and will never be unemployed. That is very important. Again, it is about the multiannual budgeting piece and signalling that this is a valuable career. It is an area of the economy where, over the next 20 or 30 years, construction will continue to be quite strong because of the climate change transition will be multi-decade in nature. A lot of it is about building infrastructure. We need to massively increase housing in order to tackle the housing crisis. Construction, along with sectors like caring, are those that will continue to grow and need more workers into the future. We would see that as an important point. Perhaps it is beyond the budget.

I agree with all of that.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

To add to that, the level of pay at apprentice level for a school leaver who is 16 to 18 years of age is an issue. I am not advocating that the SUSI grant be taken from working-class households, but there is a big gap between those grants and apprentice pay. People compare getting the SUSI grant to having to work for many hours and get up at 5 a.m. to work in an industry that might collapse in ten years' time and force them to emigrate. There are mismatches in terms of the State's intervention in increasing incomes.

It is a positive move that local authorities and public bodies seem to be waking up to their obligations to take on apprenticeships and all of that. That will help. Obviously, there is a lagging effect. It will be a number of years before we see the benefits. We also need an all-island approach to apprenticeships in order to increase our labour market.

I thank members and witnesses for their contributions and the manner in which they dealt with the various queries and questions. I am most respectful and thankful for them having done so. Their contributions will contribute no end to our recommendations on the budgetary process. We look forward to meeting them again in the future.

The select committee adjourned at 8.04 p.m until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 September 2023.
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