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Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Report on National Development Plan: Economic and Social Research Institute

I welcome our guests from the ESRI, namely, Dr. Alan Barrett, Dr. Sheelah Connolly, Dr. John Curtis, Dr. Kelly de Bruin, Dr. Niall Farrell and Dr. Kieran McQuinn.

Before we begin, I will explain the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. They are expected, however, not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind Members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind Members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in these public meetings. I will not permit a Member to participate where they do not adhere to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I invite Dr. Barrett to give his opening statement.

Dr. Alan Barrett

I thank the Chair and the committee members for inviting us to discuss the recent ESRI report on the national development plan. I am the director of the institute, and I am joined by my colleagues, whom you have introduced already, a Chathaoirligh. It is a big team, but there are a lot of different angles to the report, so we hope we have all the required expertise. The report was commissioned by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform and most of the work was undertaken in early summer 2023.

I will say a few brief words about the context of the report. When the current national development plan was launched in 2018, it identified a clear need for substantial public investment in Ireland. The needs were set out again with the launch of the renewed NDP in 2021. In spite of the ambition which underpinned the NDP, the latest information suggests that the earlier level of ambition may have underestimated what is needed. Population growth is exceeding expectations, and greenhouse gas emissions targets look increasingly challenging. In the absence of any constraints, the obvious response would be to increase the near-term ambition of the NDP through higher spending allocations and the acceleration of projects. The existence of capacity constraints, however, implies that the policy options which would apply in an unconstrained setting may not be optimal in the immediate future. In essence, an accelerated NDP risks generating increased inflation in the construction sector whereby the costs of delivery increase. This conflict between the need for public investment and the constraints on investment provided the context for the report. The challenge for us, essentially, was to provide high-level guidelines on how that conflict can be managed.

I will say a bit more now about the capacity constraints I have mentioned. The economy is performing strongly, and this is reflected in the current rate of unemployment, around 4%, which is historically low. Noting limits to increased labour supply from sources such as increased participation and increased immigration, it is clear that the economy and, hence, the NDP face severe capacity constraints.

Studies are reviewed in the report which sought to quantify the amount of labour needed to deliver on some of Ireland's investment needs. For example, the expert group on future skills needs asked how many additional construction workers would be needed to increase housing output. Looking at "direct" employees and "indirect" employees, the latter relating to supply chains, the expert group estimates that approximately 40,000 full-time equivalent employees would be required to build 20,000 extra housing units. Based on this and other studies, including the analysis in the chapter of this report on energy, it is clear that an accelerated NDP will create levels of labour demand in the construction sector where supply is simply unavailable.

We go on to ask what the effect of injecting additional demand into a constrained setting might be. Based on simulations using macroeconomic models, it seems likely that such additional demand would lead to construction wage inflation. However, the models could well be underestimating the inflationary impact. With the unemployment rate at a historically low level, previous trends suggest that the relationship between the unemployment rate and the inflation rate might not be linear. Instead, inflation might actually accelerate as unemployment is lowered.

I turn now to some of the sectoral analysis in the report. A key point to emerge in the chapter on housing is the likelihood that existing targets for housing supply might understate need, given the stronger than expected increase in the population seen in census 2022. This chapter also recognises the capacity constraints which confront efforts to increase output. However, and this is a really important point, it is noted that increased housing output could dampen the price of existing houses and rents. Hence, any increase in the costs of new building arising from increased investment could be offset by an easing in housing costs, so there are kind of contradictory results there. The cost of construction could rise but house price inflation could be reduced overall.

Ireland has well-established targets with respect to energy infrastructure, and these are set out in the corresponding chapter. The focus on the chapter is on translating these targets into levels of investment not only in terms of euro but also in terms of labour inputs. Combining likely labour needs for onshore wind, offshore wind, solar PV, conventional generation and energy efficiency, it is estimated that the annual additional employment requirement would be about 24,000. It is important to see that figure in the context of some of the figures I mentioned earlier as regards the extra bodies that would be needed for our housing construction.

The benefits of investment in transport infrastructure are well known and well understood and range from economic considerations such as improved labour mobility to broader social, cultural and recreational opportunities. Ireland's transport system, however, being heavily reliant on roads and motor vehicles, is a significant contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. Echoing advice from the OECD, this chapter discusses the need for truly transformational policy with a focus on sustainable mobility at a system level. In that context, even if the 2:1 expenditure ratio favouring public transport over new roads is maintained, the roads element of expenditure should be based on design which includes active travel modes.

Healthcare policy has an overarching framework, namely Sláintecare, and the discussion of investment needs in the chapter on health is grounded in Sláintecare. However, the faster pace of population growth has implications for capital needs in healthcare. In addition, the pace of population ageing presents particular issues for healthcare, especially with regard to long-term care. While the basic policy framework is in place and identifies the need for investment in acute, primary and community care, the required scale and geographic distribution of the investment is likely to be evolving.

Population growth and increasing participation will lead to an increased need for education facilities from early childhood through to higher education. This is well understood, but an additional issue in education is the standard of facilities and the need for upgrades. Although more systematic information is needed, we know through the Growing Up in Ireland survey that many school principals rate school facilities poorly. We also know from previous ESRI research that facilities in many further education colleges are viewed as being poor by FE providers. Investment in digital infrastructure is also needed in education if stated policy ambitions are to be realised.

I move on to three cross-cutting themes. First, on climate, Ireland has committed to an ambitious greenhouse gas emissions reduction target of 51% by 2030. The target was made legally binding by the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021 and further commits to net-zero emissions by 2050. The Climate Action Plan 2023 outlines a roadmap with specific targets, policies and measures across various sectors in order to achieve these targets. However, based on achieved emissions reductions to date and planned actions under the Climate Action Plan 2023, success in meeting targets is far from guaranteed. Hence, our climate policy efforts need to increase rapidly to ensure our targets are met.

The section on planning reflects on a number of issues, including the delays that seem to arise in a system that is under-resourced. Another point which is addressed is the situation whereby nationally important projects that are designed to facilitate decarbonisation and to address the potential impacts of climate change are substantially delayed, reduced in scale or abandoned. Examples arise in the cases of energy networks and sustainable mobility. Sustainable development requires striking a balance between individual and community concerns and wider national needs in the context of national housing, environmental and climate targets.

The achievement of balanced regional development is a key component of Project Ireland 2040. In support of that goal, investment under the NDP should ideally be spread in an integrated and systematic manner across the country.

While the spread of projects appears to reflect a reasonable degree of alignment between investment and population targets, the data available are too limited to assist in any level of rigorous assessment. CSO data on population growth across counties and regions are more useful and allow for the following observations. The fact that all counties experienced population growth between 2016 and 2022 is to be welcomed. However, the fact that the eastern and midlands region is experiencing a share of population growth beyond that envisaged in the 2040 target is a concern.

The final section of my remarks concerns prioritisation guidelines. On an important point, it is not possible for the ESRI to say if any one policy goal, such as housing, should be prioritised over another, such as climate, and we do not attempt to do so. That is the role of the elected Government. However, we do provide some broad principles which might be applied in deciding how projects might be prioritised.

An acceleration of the NDP could avoid an inflationary impulse if it was combined with an overall budgetary package where other measures, such as taxation and current expenditure, balanced any NDP-related stimulus. Another option would be to direct construction activity towards, for example, housing and away from other activities, such as office space, hotels and car parks. A tax could be used not for the purpose of aggregate demand management, but for the more microeconomic purpose of redirecting activity. Yet another approach would be to delay any acceleration until labour market conditions had changed.

Clearly, approaches based on tax increases, spending reductions and deliberate delays are likely to present political challenges, so we sought to think creatively about the speed and sequencing of NDP delivery. Decisions on public spending will almost always have a judgment component and such judgment is particularly important in giving weight, for example, to socially valuable outcomes in health and education. However, it is important that some form of metrics inform decisions too. It is suggested that cost-benefit analyses, CBAs, for projects be reassessed to account for the more severe capacity constraints and the more demanding climate targets which have arisen since the original NDP was drafted. For capacity constraints, the labour intensity of projects should be considered, with the climate impacts of projects, whether positive or negative, also featuring more prominently in the cost-benefit analyses.

A further factor which could be incorporated into revised CBA metrics is the impact of projects on easing inflationary pressures through supply-side impacts even if the demand-side impact in the short run is inflationary. This is the point I touched on earlier. Increased building of housing units will lower the price of the existing stock, all else being equal. With regard to energy, a faster transition to renewable sources could reduce energy costs. A similar consideration arises in terms of whether the demands created by investments are largely met from domestic resources or through imports. An increased demand for imports will have no impact on inflation, given that Ireland is a price-taker in the relevant markets. It would also be desirable to favour projects that use innovative methods and materials that economise on labour and other inputs.

Regardless of the degree to which projects can be rationally reordered in terms of the sequence of delivery, a challenge will remain around the scale of investment at any point in time. Just as decisions on priority should be informed by metrics, it would be important to base any acceleration of the NDP on evidence of a loosening of capacity constraints.

Thank you. I am sure there are questions and that clarifications will be sought in regard to the many issues Dr. Barrett has raised. I call Deputy Durkan.

I welcome our guests and thank Dr. Barrett for the presentation, which is useful and has a focus on the issues that are of importance now and in respect of which time is running out. Some of these issues are not so easy and some of the threats to the national development plan are not easy to resolve. In the short time that I have, I will try to address some of them.

First, Dr. Barrett is right about the price of houses. The more houses that are built, the greater the tendency for existing houses to become cheaper. The danger that has been mentioned is whether a person is situated in a place where they do not need to move on, or if they are capable of withstanding the reduction in the value of the property in which they live. I do not think it is as serious as it looks because there will always be movements in house prices as the demand continues, and the demand will continue for some considerable time.

It is equally important to recognise that we have to increase the output of house-building as a matter of urgency in the shortest possible time, and we have to blend in with this the climate change issues that we have to deal with and ensure, insofar as we can, that we comply with and meet the targets. We also need to be careful that we do not run ahead of ourselves and create further problems in the economy because, by reacting too severely to the need to comply with the proposed regulations and targets, we can damage our economy. I would like to see scientific evidence to measure the extent to which the motor car sector, the agri-food sector, the transport sector or the road-building sector might be impacted.

For example, I spent time over Christmas travelling on roads from the midlands to the west of the Shannon. There is a serious need to upgrade the road system, with particular reference to the impending need for motorways in areas that never got the benefit of surges in the past. There is an opinion somewhere that we will never need them so we are not going to build those roads, but I believe that would be a mistake and we would pay a high price for it. We will need roads, particularly in areas that have not had the benefit of upgrades to the road system for some considerable time. That includes the midlands and if not all of the south, which has improved in recent times, then the part of the south that is nearest to the midlands, and also the west. We have to programme that into the system and see how we will deal with that.

We cannot plan for a system where we opt for all-rail for commercial transport. I do not think that would work, and it has to be very carefully examined before we embark on something that could have serious consequences. For example, it is fine to have a roll-on, roll-off system in France or Germany, and a truckload of merchandise in Paris can go to Moscow if someone is so inclined, and it does not have to stop every 50 or 60 miles. That needs to be borne in mind. To provide the infrastructure in a smaller country would be fairly dramatic and we would need to think carefully about it.

I am also thinking about the fact the transport system and the trucks we already have on the roads are doing a very good job in transporting food and other merchandise daily, on time and in good condition. We have to acknowledge and recognise that. We need to ask ourselves, for example, if it is going to be economically viable to put a series of stops in between and we need to ask the customers if it suits them.

Those are my initial comments. I am in favour of complying with the regulations to reduce emissions as quickly as possible, but I am not in favour of disabling some of our industries by trying to achieve something in such a hurry that we damage our economic entity.

Does anyone wish to respond to those comments? No questions were asked.

Dr. Alan Barrett

There was not a question as such. Some interesting observations were made, but I do not think we need to respond.

I would expect some little response because we, as politicians, have to respond to that eventually. All the experts in the world can make suggestions but we have to deal with it.

Dr. Curtis wishes to comment.

Dr. John Curtis

The further development of the roads in the midlands was mentioned. The preamble to the chapter on transport is very clear about the importance of the transport network, including roads. There is nothing in the report that we produced saying that roads are bad. We need them. They are important not just for economic and social activity but to get workers closer to jobs, etc. We do not disagree with what the Deputy has said but there are challenges within the sector, in terms of its emissions production, that we have to address. We are not coming out and saying that parts of the country do not need road improvements. To some extent, the transport chapter looks at passenger transport, deals with getting a lower emission transport system and examines how to get workers to their jobs. We will always need trucks to move stuff. We are certainly mindful of their importance to the economy. On rail, we have not been specific on the topic of converting the rail network for heavy use of commercial goods or commercial rails.

I thank Dr. Curtis. That is reassuring.

There is one other comment.

Dr. Kelly de Bruin

I wish to comment on the Deputy's point that we need to ensure that reaching target goals does not disable the economy. Everybody can agree that is not what we want to do. That is something we are working on. We agree that this needs to be considered and that the economic aspects of the transition to a low-carbon economy are very important and should be investigated. That is something we are working on so I just wanted to say that I agree with and support the Deputy in that regard.

In the context of the issues that have just been raised in regard to transport, can the witnesses compare this development plan with the previous one to identify what transport projects may have been advanced or may have been lost? The suggestion is that they may have been lost because of a political decision to have a 2:1 split within the transport spend between roads and public transport.

Dr. John Curtis

We did not specifically compare the two plans. In a sense, this was a high-level overview of the NDP itself, so the ESRI-----

Would you be interested in exploring that?

Dr. John Curtis

I was just going to say that the ESRI does not have the capacity to go into all these individual decisions. In some sense, once a plan's projects have started-----

I would have thought that when a new plan is taken on, the resources, expense and professionalism that went into advancing a project under the previous plan would be respected, but there are indications that this is not the case. It might be more political than anything else.

Dr. Alan Barrett

May I add a point here? When we were undertaking the work, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform came to us and there was a sort of negotiation. Perhaps that is not the right word. It wanted to clarify exactly what the ESRI could do and could not do. There was a relatively tight timeframe on this. We decided we were not going to get into a sort of project-by-project analysis because there simply was not the scope, at the time, to do it. When we pitched the problem about the issue of capacity constraints and needs on the one hand, and the need to come up with a sort of framework that would make sense on the other hand, that is really the way we approached it. The logic flowing from what we are saying is that projects need to be assessed. CBAs should be done in respect of all projects. Under standard procedures on capital expenditure, CBAs should be done to estimate the costs and benefits of various projects. If projects are being second-guessed, the existing work should be there and we should be looking at the additional-----

We have to vote, Chair.

Dr. Barrett may continue for a few minutes.

Dr. Alan Barrett

The point is that you need to look at the project again to the extent that is possible, rather than merely doing a judgment on it. When a particular project is facing these sorts of changed circumstances - this is going back to the issues of capacity constraints and more stringent environmental considerations - there must be an assessment of whether the overall economics of the project stack up. We did not go into each project but we tried to provide the toolkit, in a sense, to reassess what-----

I thought it would be interesting to look at the provisions that are there now, compared with what was there previously, by virtue of the increased emphasis on public travel. I will not ask Dr. Barrett to go through each individual project, but to give a general overview of the sort of percentage of projects that have been lost as a result of that change in policy.

Dr. Alan Barrett

We did not get into it in that level of detail.

That is fine. I do not think there is a vote.

I have been watching the screen and I do not think so either.

We will go on. Given that Deputy Moynihan is not available, I call Deputy Conway-Walsh.

I thank the witnesses for the very useful report and welcome them to this meeting. When was the report sent to the Department?

Dr. Alan Barrett

The first draft would have been sent in June. There were some amendments and various iterations but the first substantial draft - I am open to correction - was sent around June.

When was the second draft sent?

Dr. Alan Barrett

I am going to say that maybe it was around September. I am looking at my colleagues and nobody can remember but those are the sorts of timeframes.

It was prior to the budget.

Dr. Alan Barrett

Yes.

That is what I am trying to establish. Given some of what is in it, I am surprised it was not taken into consideration in the budget. My biggest concern in relation to capital projects is that the funding is insufficient. In terms of the scope, when Dr. Barrett pitched the problem, was the issue of inflation considered? Was the issue of inflation, and the fact there was not sufficient funding there, specifically outside the scope of the research? The reviewed NDP set targets in terms of the percentage of GNI* for capital investment. The targets for 2023 and 2024 were 4.9% and 5.1%, respectively. Now they are estimated by the Department to be 4.1% and 4.3%, respectively. There is a 0.8% shortfall in both years. That leaves us just over 15% behind profile for both of those years, which equates to between €2.3 billion and €2.4 billion. Estimates of the extent of the gap that has been identified vary from €14 billion, according to Cabinet Ministers, and €19 billion, according to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC. Why was that not considered within the report, given that it is likely to have such an impact? Will Dr. Barrett comment on that in terms of projects being delayed, stalled or maybe not done at all?

Dr. Alan Barrett

Let me take a stab at it. In terms of why it was not in the report and why we did not get into that level of detail - I will come back to the other point - the original contract for this was agreed in April of last year. The timeline was for the delivery of a report in June. As all of our ESRI colleagues had a multitude of other things on, the amount of time that was actually given over to it meant that we had to be very focused.

To look at the broader question of allocations, perhaps the first point to be made is that the percentages mentioned by the Deputy in the context of GNI are high relative to international standards. We are spending a good amount on public infrastructure at the moment. The question she is driving at relates to whether more should be spent.

Are we walking blindly into, say, a situation where there would be a gap of €19 billion? Some provision was made, but nothing near the €2.5 billion-----

Dr. Alan Barrett

I do not think we are. On capital expenditure, there can be reasons capital expenditure runs behind profile. Very often, this has to do with the lumpiness of projects. For example, things do not necessarily start when the might be expected to start. It is a very different profile of expenditure. You should really be judging the quantum of spend over three- to five-year periods. If there are significant shortfalls over such periods, then you would worry about it.

What we were really struck by was the extent to which the current allocations are strong and the fact that while we are doing a lot of expenditure, the natural inclination, given the investment needs, is to ramp up expenditure even further. For us, that was the critical difficulty or constraint. We would not necessarily seen the fact that we are running a little bit behind as a problem. It is better to be delaying projects as opposed to doing the sort of stimulatory injections that we are talking about and the effects that these might have. There is still the question about a situation where expenditure is running behind. In that context, you need to look all the more closely at the package of projects that you are doing in order to make sure you achieve all that you want and that the objectives are being maximised. Back to the earlier point, if you have done an analyses of a project and have a clear understanding and ranking of projects in the context of which ones are yielding the most positive returns, then you should be sequencing things in the sense that you do the things that are most important earlier and make sure that that is there.

The one additional point that we would make - I will ask Dr. McQuinn to talk about this in a minute - on investment in housing potentially having a counter effect on inflation is really important. We were very eager to make sure that was understood in the report. We said a great deal about that first-round effect of inflation in the construction sector increasing the costs of the delivery of new houses but having this different effect on the existing stock of houses. We also commented on the extent to which house prices are feeding in through the competitive challenges facing the economy more broadly. This was really important. Perhaps Dr. McQuinn might take a minute or two on that.

Dr. McQuinn might also address another matter for me. Where do we stand when it comes to meeting the current targets for reducing both inflation and the price of houses?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

On the overall point made about running behind profile, that may be providing evidence of what we are worried about, namely, that constraints within the economy are preventing the allocation of the full spend. Again, that goes back to what we are saying about there being a potential issue of resource constraints inhibiting the spend.

On the targets relating to housing, our colleagues Dr. Adele Bergin and Mr. Ablán García-Rodríguez brought out the structural demand estimates for housing a few years ago. It is important to note that those are the estimates of the increase in demand in a given year due to demographic factors. These are sometimes mistaken for targets. In other words, someone might say that, for example, we need 30,000 houses in order to meet demand. Of course, the fact is we have not met those targets or levels for quite some years. There is a pent-up demand associated with these figures and, as a result, we need to build more houses than that. The structural demand estimates are being revised as we speak and are due to be published in April. It is no surprise to anyone that, in light of the way the demographics have gone since the last estimates were produced and the advent of the war in the Ukraine, which has given rise to a large increase in the number of people coming here, those targets are set to be revised upwards. At this point, we do not have the numbers because they not been finalised.

So Dr. McQuinn does not know the scale.

On balanced regional development, Dr. Barrett stated: "While the spread of projects appears to reflect a reasonable degree of alignment between investment and population targets, the data available are too limited". That is a way of saying that we do not have enough people in the areas represented by Deputy Canney and me. Is it time to look at the matrix we use to calculate population targets? If we do not, we are never going to have the infrastructure front-loaded in a way that will allow us to encourage more people to live in the areas in question. In the context of infrastructure, I refer to projects relating to onshore and offshore renewable energy generation and the western rail corridor, which is basically shovel-ready and would tick an awful lot of the boxes. My main query relates to population and to decisions being driven by population data.

Dr. Alan Barrett

The Department presents data on a regional spread of projects on an ongoing basis. This is helpful, but there are a number of limitations. It gives some indication of, say, projects that are worth over €10 million but it does not give a detailed quantification of the amount of money being spent. It may be in there somewhere but it is not fed through in the live data. In writing our report, we looked at that spread of projects and asked whether what is being done is achieving some sort of redistribution of the population. As members will know, county-level populations are only updated when the census happens. As a result, you are looking at data from census to census. It is very difficult, therefore, to get a sense of linking investments to population changes because the data just does not support that.

Underlying the Deputy's question is an important fundamental point, namely, the extent to which this sort of investment should cater for or determine population growth. That is a really important distinction. There is a need for an in-depth discussion about whether you need to proactively invest almost ahead of population growth in order that you are putting in place what is required. As the Deputy will know, policy in Ireland has typically been more in the camp of facilitating the population rather than proactively getting ahead of it.

Where we are after that, I do not know. There is a level of discussion on balanced regional development in these documents which exceeds what previously would have been the case. There is a recognition that the growth and sprawl of Dublin has not been good for Dublin and has not been good for the rest of the country. My colleagues can interrupt at any point, but I am of the view that we are still grappling with this issue. There is a recognition of the need to rebalance development but does that mean we should focus, for example, on Cork and Limerick or should we do a broader spread. I have seen people make different contributions on that question, but I do not think that I have ever seen Governments being willing to nail their colours to the mast. The latter is probably for very understandable political reasons. Perhaps some of my colleagues may wish to comment.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

At the conference this morning, Niall Cussen, the planning regulator, made the point that the way planning is going, namely, putting the infrastructure in place first rather than what happened before where a housing estate would be build and we would wait for the infrastructure to catch up. There does seem to be a recognition that you need to put the infrastructure in place first. Even some of the research you have been doing on the housing programme would support that.

There is a planning component associated with the research programme we have in the Department of housing looking at servicing needs if there is an increase in housing in a particular area, including educational and healthcare needs etc. There is some element of that but it has not yet worked it way into official policy.

Has Dr. McQuinn any comment on the planning system and its failure to deal with the needs of the economy and the logjams it has created for residential and infrastructure? The development plan will not realise its ambition by virtue of the delays associated with planning. Will the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill address all, a lot, not enough or few of those logjams? In a time of emergency, we might have imagined some emergency powers would be forthcoming to deal with these matters but that has not been the case. No party or political organisation seems willing to risk that. Local authorities go to great lengths to consult the public on their development plans. They are cognisant of various initiatives, guidelines, policies and directives adhering to density, design, infrastructure, capacity and the availability of services. People might participate in that process or not but irrespective, as soon as there is an application to build four houses, they can hold it up for five years. That is not right in my book. Has Niall Cussen anything to say about the likes of that?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

The conference this morning was about comparing housing supply across Ireland, Northern Ireland and other regional parts of the UK and the issue of planning came up. We addressed that as part of the overall. We did not get into it in detail but we made certain recommendations. Notwithstanding what the Cathaoirleach is saying about local authorities engaging with stakeholders and so on, if we benchmark our system against the UK system, there is some evidence to suggest, certainly in the Scottish model, that there is heavy emphasis on consultation at the outset, with a view to minimising objections further down the track. It is almost like an offset, in that if you greatly increase the degree of community participation with and involvement in development plans at the outset, you can then start to reduce the need or capacity for third-party complaints and objections. That is a balance.

Is it about reducing the need to restricting the potential?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

It possibly is. That is part of the trail.

Some developments, whether residential, commercial or infrastructural, can achieve permission by virtue of the development plan that is in vogue at the time of the application. By the time it goes through system, which caters for judicial review and up to a five-year delay in this country, a new plan may well have been adjudicated on. The application may have no relevance to the new plan and the new plan takes precedence over the plan under which that application was made. Stakeholders and bodies such as the ESRI need to be identifying and highlighting these issues, rather than us alone doing it, in order to bring the public to accept the changes that need to happen.

Dr. John Curtis

I will come in. I do not disagree with the Cathaoirleach's point and I think we have emphasised it in the report. There is a view that objections and judicial reviews do not impact anyone except the developer.

They affect the whole of society.

Dr. John Curtis

That is my point. The whole of society loses and-----

They have much more weight than the majority who are silent.

Dr. John Curtis

Yes, and we have shown it impacts on energy. We are all paying higher electricity costs when transmission lines and generation capacity are not put in place. There are also increased emissions. We have done research in the past year or two demonstrating that, and the same ten years ago, that it has that impact.

We also try to emphasise that projects, whether for roads or renewable energy, get stopped because of environmental impacts but the reason those projects are coming along is that a bigger environmental impact is coming. We are not achieving our national targets because we are worried about something small.

There is NIMBYism.

Dr. John Curtis

That is certainly one part of it. Are there enough resources for planning? We in the ESRI are not experts on public planning but we do see that the capacity coming through the relevant body is making things difficult. It does not have enough time to deal with the projects. The same agency is dealing with an objection to someone's Velux window and a windfarm or whatever else.

I know. Local authorities are able to do it-----

Dr. John Curtis

Elsewhere.

----within a timeframe that is set in legislation. That will be impacted by the new Bill.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

The general conclusion that came up this morning as far as local authorities are concerned was that we may need to see an increase in resources for some of the outlined issues. Those resources have not been there to date, which is an issue.

Local authorities are constrained because there are statutory time limits for them to make decisions while An Bord Pleanála as it stands, at least before this legislation comes in, is not so constrained. It should and will be constrained in that regard. Despite those constraints, the local authorities, to be fair to them, get decisions made.

It has been an interesting discussion. I think about the Galway ring road with about €30 million spent and we have nothing. We still do not know where that project is at. To finish talking about planning, the issue is the total uncertainty around projects and when they can be delivered. When there is a national development plan and money for projects, there should be a project delivery plan. We should be looking at what projects are ready to go to ground now and get done, whether that project is a railway line, such as the western rail corridor, a road, a sewerage treatment plant or whatever. With the national development plan, we should target those projects. At the same time, a team should be preparing the next phase of projects for the coming five or ten years so they get through planning now. The Cathaoirleach talked about five-year delays. We need to start the planning process now even if a project will not be going to ground for another five years. We need a two-track approach. Right now, we have limited resources but projects that are ready to go. Let us get them going and plan others concurrently.

We have to change. I will give the small example of the Trinity Primary School in Tuam. Three schools amalgamated to form one school in 2019. We are now in 2024 and the preliminary design still has not been done. I am being told that discussion is going back and over. At the same time, three schools are operating in three different locations and we are trying to manage it as one school. It will probably be like that for another five years. That kind of stuff is eating the valuable money in the national development plan. How do we deal with this? We need a completely new approach to how we do our business. I would love for the ESRI to wipe the slate clean and ask how to do things differently with this plan in place. Forgetting about politics, the ESRI could consider how to run it as a business to get the job done. That is the first thing.

We need what I call balanced development instead of balanced regional development in this country. Our witnesses have noted, and Deputy Conway-Walsh mentioned it, that we do not have enough data to see where the money is being spent. We recognise that. The Regional Group has brought forward legislation to compel every Department to produce a report every year on where the money was spent rather than where it was announced to be spent so we can call them to task if money was not spent in a region in which it was supposed to be spent. The north and west regional area is now designated as an area in decline. It is a lagging region. That is not us or the Government saying that but the European Commission telling us we are lagging behind because we are not getting proper development. We get platitudes and sympathy.

We are told that a lot of money and schemes are being thrown at us, and that they are for these areas, but they are small schemes. I do not know the opinion of the witnesses on what our Bill is doing. It is calling every Department to account. The Department of Transport will say it spent X amount of money on new infrastructure in Offaly, Galway or in the regions or wherever. When they are doing the regions they have to include Galway as well as Cork and Limerick, by the way. That is just a threat for the witnesses. Genuinely, I believe that if we do not get that balance right and get the infrastructure out there we will end up talking about this in 20 years' time, whoever is alive to talk about it. Really and truly, it is not happening. Take the western rail corridor. It is a project that is being pushed back, brought forward, pushed back and brought forward. We all know it needs to be done. Industries want to have all of their products carbon neutral, so they want to be able to transport their finished product and raw material by rail freight, as best they can, rather than doing it by truck. In fairness, the Government is redoing the line from Limerick to Foynes to create connectivity to get things in and out. We need the western rail corridor to service the west of Ireland to do that. We need to bring it up as far as Collooney, and that will happen. It is an awful struggle to convince people that these are the things we should be doing for the betterment of Dublin and the Dublin area. We need to spread the load and the services across the country.

Right now, the biggest problem we have is housing. It is not so much the Government, which is building 30,000 per year between social and affordable - it has all of the different names on them. However, the private housing market is completely dysfunctional. I would like to hear the witnesses' thoughts on how we can help the private housing market get back to building housing schemes for people to buy. It is just not happening. I have seen cases where developers have planning permission and let it run out because they could not afford to build, and local authorities are taking over to build social housing. If we continue this role and do not take corrective action or interfere in the market to get the private sector going we will be at nothing because we will only be building social housing. How are we going to maintain our housing stock, that we are now increasing hand over fist, over the next 20 to 35 years to keep the asset right?

Dr. Alan Barrett

I will take a stab at a couple of questions while the colleagues are thinking. The Deputy's first issue is about how we should do this, and he gave the example of the schools. I have a couple of reactions. In terms of things that really need to happen, I would first argue the importance of a stable and predictable funding stream. A lot of the difficulties we are talking about today arose because of the cutback on capital expenditure in the wake of the great financial crisis. Ireland has had this experience. It was exactly the same in the 1990s. In the 1980s we had a terrible time and cut back on capital expenditure. When we had the economic boom of the 1990s there was a recognition that we needed a lot more infrastructure for the growing economy. However, we were trying to build it at a time when there were capacity constraints. We did whatever through the 2000s. We then had the collapse and we cut back on capital expenditure. Some of the figures on housing in this are dramatic as to how output went down. It is almost a kind of rollercoaster. If you look at the picture over a long history this is exactly the difficulty. We do nothing at various stages and then we try to do a huge amount of catch up at a time when the resources are not there. We talk about resources like construction workers, but of course you need lots of resources right through the system. You need the civil servants in the Department of Education to do the planning around the school building programme. Again, there is difficulty there and we know even the civil service is having difficulties recruiting civil servants, such are the challenges. Stable funding is really important.

We have talked about planning already, but this issue comes up continually. I have to say I knew very little about planning. I do not claim to be an expert, but I learned three things in the context of doing this report. A lot of people think about the planning system as stopping bad things happening, like a horrible factory going up next to a beautiful housing estate, or building something really ugly somewhere. I think that is what people think planning is about. However, as Dr. Curtis pointed out earlier, we are now in the situation where our planning is stopping us from doing things we really need to do, be that housing people or decarbonisation projects. We now have a planning system that is working against, let us call them goods, and not just working against bads. Something else pointed out to me is that Ireland does an unusual thing, which a lot of people do not understand. We do both planning and zoning. A lot of countries do one or the other. A place can be zoned residential or industrial. Other countries do not do zoning but focus on planning and talk about the design of specific projects in particular places. We zone and we plan. It seems we have this mix, which further complicates things. My final point on planning is very much from an economist's perspective. Economics and economists always think that life is about tradeoffs. It is about resources, making choices and balancing things. Planning seems to us to be much more definitive in particular directions. The sorts of tradeoffs we think about just do not seem to apply in the planning process, which is one of the reasons we economists have a difficulty.

I will speak briefly to the Deputy's data on rural development and then see if the colleagues wish to come in. As I pointed out in response to Deputy Conway-Walsh, we were quite surprised by the lack of data on something as fundamental as the total spend in an area. They could tell us the number of projects but not the total spend. It seemed strange. However, the ESRI is working with the Department of Rural and Community Development at the moment. That Department spends a lot of money in a lot of places and it is dispersed. One of the things we are working with it on is the notion of on one hand having a much more systematic approach to expenditure but on the other having a much more systematic approach to looking at the outputs of the expenditure, what the expenditure is actually doing. I return to the Deputy's point. You can plan or project ahead ten years and look back and ask what was achieved for X, Y and Z. The worry is always that a huge amount of money is spent, but you cannot identify what was actually achieved for it. It will not be a surprise that a research institute supports the notion of building up the data infrastructure proactively and at the outset of a national development plan. Things have improved a lot. We do an awful lot more of this than we did previously, but I think we need to do a lot more.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

I will add to the point about housing, and it is a point we have often made both here and elsewhere. There has been a unique set of circumstances over the past number of years. There was the huge, dramatic fall off in supply after the financial crisis, which Dr. Barrett spoke about. We are coming from a low base. When it comes to who should provide the housing, one of the issues unfortunately is that the financial crisis did not just wipe out a large amount of the construction sector. It also brought about a lot of changes in the financial sector about the provision and allocation of credit. I think most people would agree with that. That has ironically made it more difficult for those in the construction sector, in particular, to access credit. That has put additional pressure on the private sector. We have called for the Government to be more involved and it has ratcheted up its involvement in the sector quite a bit. However, it is coming from a low base. That is unfortunately why it is taking time. There are some recent example of collaboration and co-operation between the private and the public sector.

For instance, the LDA has been involved in certain schemes where it has gone in and tried to activate situations where planning permission has been granted in collaboration with private developers. This has begun to bring some degree of activity on line. Unfortunately, the private sector is also confronting issues such as the higher interest rates we have seen recently. They have also increased the cost of finance for those in the private sector. Because of where we are coming from, we need a certain amount of Government involvement to kick-start activity. There is scope for collaboration between the private and public sectors. It would be crowding in as opposed to crowding out. This will be the way forward in the coming years if we are to increase output.

The housing situation is now affecting the economy. It is affecting the expansion capacity of our FDI. Companies cannot get the people because they cannot guarantee they will get a place to live. When we go back and look at it we see that if we keep just nibbling at it instead of deciding to do something a bit more drastic we will end up in a situation where these companies will regress and they will do their expansions in Malaysia or someplace else. Most of these global companies are competing with other sites of their own and not with another global company. It is a worry that we could very quickly see a decrease in FDI here if we do not get our act together.

Dr. McQuinn spoke about the Land Development Agency. We know what the problems are. I certainly think the State needs to step in a lot more quickly to try to get the private sector going so we can have houses that people can purchase at a reasonable price. The credit for developers is absolutely out the window. Local authorities looking for cash bonds is another problem. The biggest issue is planning. There is the cost of planning as well as the uncertainty of what people will get at the end of the day. I like the idea of having just a local area plan. This is what the Cathaoirleach was speaking about when he said we should have local area plans in which we decide what should go where and do all of the due diligence. It would save a lot if we could just move ahead with them then.

I have another question on energy security. It is about what constraint it is on the potential to expand and assist the economy in how it meets demand and the potential the State should have to grow its industry, business and commerce. Again, development plans have not lived up to expectation regarding the provision of energy security. We are very curious in taking it from winter to winter. Much has been made of the new sustainable projects but they are not at the pace or rate we would like to see. Offshore energy has the potential to generate €300 billion by 2050. This is the size of the economy today. We could be part of a pan-European project. We could be at the forefront of a pipe rather than at the end of one from Russia.

A marine board has been put in place but it is subject to the same potential delays and logjams in the planning system. Is it not a belief of the ESRI that when we are at a point of crisis and emergency, whether it be about the provision of housing and infrastructure or the provision of energy, we need to restrict the potential for these delays? It all comes back to planning.

Dr. Niall Farrell

In terms of energy there are two factors to take into account. There are the prices and the fact of the planning. When we think about prices-----

How are prices compared to Europe? They have probably come down but we are still way behind.

Dr. Niall Farrell

What feeds into this is that we have a lot of gas. If we have more renewables it helps to dampen it. It is imperative to get more renewables on the system to help shield us more and more from these international fluctuations. This will help with many of the problems that have been discussed to date.

When we think about our climate targets we think about the capacity constraints we have discussed in the document. There are many ways we can reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. We could have more renewables or more energy efficiency. Renewables have less inflationary pressure so perhaps we should be guiding more effort towards them. It would motivate a lot more action on renewables.

The process by which licences, auctions and delivery-----

Dr. Niall Farrell

I am coming to this and it is a very important issue. We did some research on this looking at the planning delays in the system. When it comes to renewables we are not dealing with one system. There are the normal planning delays as happen when building a house, in going through the planning system and An Bord Pleanála and these types of delays. Renewables are also being connected to the grid. This requires grid access and all of the paperwork that goes with it. These two systems run parallel. If I have a delay in one system it means I might miss out on an application window in the other system. They add up together to a much greater delay then there would be otherwise. We have done some research on this to quantify the effects. It increases the greenhouse gas emissions over many years and it increases the costs. It is definitely an issue that can have an effect.

When it comes to the marine I am not familiar with the particulars that go with it but the same principle applies. There needs to be some sort of co-ordination to help facilitate it. As I mentioned, when it comes to prices getting it correct is very important for cost-effective delivery.

A vote has been called so we must call a halt. I thank the ESRI for making itself available and for bringing a fine team who have been available to deal with every eventuality or possibility. It shows the interest and respect the ESRI has for the committee and we appreciate it. We thank the witnesses for their commitment and report and their efforts at responding to our queries.

The select committee adjourned at 7.17 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 February 2024.
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