I thank Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Joyce for their attendance. I apologise on behalf of our chairman, Senator O'Rourke, who had to leave. This is the first group which has been detained, but that was because of the numbers here previously. We apologise for this. We look forward to what you have to say. We have read your submission. While Members of the House have full privilege, you have only qualified privilege. However, we hope you will not find out what that means. The questioning will be led by Senators O'Toole and Brian Hayes. However, everyone is free to intervene. I invite you to make some introductory remarks.
Presentation by Graduate Equality.
Witnesses: Mr. Seán O'Connor and Mr. Colin Joyce.
Having listened to the other submissions, we will not waste time as we are mindful that it is close to lunch time. I am sure what we will say will be repetitive. We are adopting a narrow focus on the subject with which I am sure the sub-committee is familiar.
I would like to say a few words about the process. I am a former Member of this House.
I apologise for not acknowledging that at the start.
That was shortly after the referendum. Since that time there has been ongoing discussion about changes in this House. As regards the perception of the Seanad, this process has energised the public in terms of interest in and change to the House, on which I compliment the sub-committee. I have worked with the State in a professional capacity in public consultation, but it was on a larger scale and with a bigger budget than this. The sub-committee has got good value for money for taxpayers because the number of submissions and interest are high. I have been surprised by this. I am sure Senator Brian Hayes remembers the Dublin Transport Initiative, the biggest process in the State, but it did not get the same level of submissions. I congratulate the sub-committee on this.
From a macro strategic point of view, graduates are good for this country. As we move towards a knowledge based economy, it is in the national interest that we get more graduates, particularly in the area of science and technology. This was mentioned by other people.
As regards the image and perception of this House, it is universally agreed that issues have arisen and that this process is good. One of the things we discovered when we launched our lobby campaign a year ago was that many of the journalists were graduates of DCU or the Dublin Institute of Technology. There was a lot of interest in this subject among journalists under 40 years. That is good in terms of the process. I was also surprised by the geographic spread of the interest. The first telephone call I received when we launched our campaign was from Letterkenny and the second was from the Institute of Technology, Tralee. It is in the interests of the House to move forward in terms of the geographic spread. The franchise of the House would be bigger. One of the appealing things, despite my political background, is the independent nature of the higher education Senators.
The motivation to launch this lobby process was based on graduate equality or what the Taoiseach referred to the other day in this House as the democratic deficit. There is an issue, of which Senator Ryan may be aware, of the perceived value of a degree from an institute of technology. That affects people going into the workplace. Since the referendum, which could have allowed the extension of voting rights, the State has assisted this academic snobbery process. The elevation in the eyes of the public and the business community of a degree holder from an institute of technology, the University of Limerick or DCU will do a lot for the perception of the value of those degrees. Senator Brian Hayes said when the Taoiseach was here that the Institute of Technology, Tallaght was doing a lot of leading work in the area of science and technology, which was acknowledged in The Sunday Times, yet there have been cases where when a graduate of the Institute of Technology, Tallaght sought employment, a person with a degree from another institution was perceived as better. I have experienced this. I am doing a masters in the Dublin Institute of Technology and when I tell people where I am doing it, I get a look which says it is not as good as another institution. By extending the franchise, a lot will be done to assist that inequality in society.
Mr. Colin Joyce has a vote. We were talking before we came in and he told me a story which is relevant. I ask him to contribute now.
Mr. Joyce
In my former life as president of Dublin Institute of Technology students' union, I campaigned vigorously for the Dublin Institute of Technology to have its own degree awarding powers. By doing so I denied every degree student a vote in the election on the Trinity College panel. Perhaps Senators Ross or Norris might have been delighted about that. I did it because the Dublin Institute of Technology needed its independence. There was a strong feeling among the students at the time that what was happening was denying them an opportunity in the workplace. As an employer, I see people submitting CVs stating their degree was conferred by Trinity College but for which they studied in the Dublin Institute of Technology. They present themselves as Trinity graduates because there is not a feeling of pride within the institutes of technology. As I read about people getting ahead, particularly in the areas of science and technology, I see they are all graduates of institutes of technology. Quite a few of the entrepreneurs who have emerged in society come from them. My youngest brother got his leaving certificate results not so long ago and was offered a place in Dundalk, but my mother said there was no way he was going to an institute of technology despite the fact her eldest son was a graduate of one. That is the perception of one woman in rural Galway but it is also a perception throughout the country because institutes of technology are not seen to be on the same plain. We need to move on from this.
Nobody wants the political independence of the university panels to be touched. However, it is important to note that these are political people, although not party political. In my time in student union activism, the USI had a 32 county franchise. This is interesting because I heard a lot of submissions on the North of Ireland. I meet a lot of people involved in trade unions, charities and in a range of areas which contribute to society who are graduates of institutes of technology, DCU, UL and the Northern institutes. They contribute to society in the Republic - in Dublin, Galway and elsewhere. We must remember that not only is Dublin a catchment area for employment for half the people in the Republic, but also for a lot of people from the North of Ireland. Perhaps that is another element. We have not included that in the submission but it occurred to us that we could help to bring in people from the North who are not party political but who are political contributors.
The science and technology area and entrepreneurialism are two areas in which institutes of technology have greatly contributed. There are issues and areas of importance which might not have the same sort of franchise in the universities, such as the maritime area or the Internet - an aspect of technology in which a lot of new courses have been brought forward in institutes of technology but which may not be to the same extent in the universities. Despite all the job losses, the good news has come from three of the largest Internet companies coming to Ireland because of the skills of people. Institutes of technology have contributed as have the universities. All the people concerned have a role to play. It would make the Seanad more aware of technology if Members were elected by those putting forward the technology idea.
I thank Graduate Equality for its presentation, thoughts and ideas. In many ways we could have probably given Mr. Joyce and Mr. O'Connor a half hour off because they are pushing an open door on the issue. At the same time, it was interesting to hear the broader views on the question of the equality, the perceptions, the institutions. People have no trouble coming to terms with MIT. Therefore, one really wonders from where people are coming on these issues. We agree with Graduate Equality on that basis. What was said on the North of Ireland was interesting but there is no point opening up that area.
In terms of a broader franchise - I understand Graduate Equality does not have a cogent, thought out position on this - a strong argument could be made that the idea of a university franchise is an anachronism and that it was okay over 50 years ago when this House was established but that perhaps nowadays we need to have a broader involvement with the second Chamber. Does Graduate Equality have any views on extending the franchise in any particular way to the public?
No. We will stick to our core issue.
Then we are all together and agreed.
I would like to ask about graduates from Northern Ireland universities or institutes of higher education.
Mr. Joyce
Would the Senator like me to expand on the point?
Yes.
Mr. Joyce
I remember some time ago hearing, I think, a member of Queen's Senate refer to Queen's University as an important university for the island of Ireland as opposed to a university for Northern Ireland. Leaving aside Nationalistic and tribal issues, the corridor from Dublin to Belfast will be an important economic corridor in the future. The universities along, and which contribute to, that corridor will be important. The universities in the regions, such as Cork and Galway, have a role in contributing to the economic success of those areas. The role of Derry and Coleraine will be important in terms of their contribution. In terms of further and higher education, I have noticed that a lot of people in the North who were political with a small "p", non-party political and non-sectarian political and came through student politics, disappeared slightly off the radar afterwards because there was not another forum in which they could be independently political. This is the place in which people of all religious denominations could be independently political.
I am delighted to see the representatives of Graduate Equality. For some months, we have been in contact on when it might get this opportunity. I congratulate it on the website and the e-mail campaign. It was really important and it got Members in this House asking whether these people's demands would be met. In regard to the campaign, what type of response did Graduate Equality get in terms of the number of hits on the site and direct representations made?
The objective was to stimulate people like the Senators into action and to which we have made some contribution. Clearly, it has been a success. As I said, I learned a lot out of this process - I had no idea about the numbers in the colleges around the country - and about this issue of the perception of one's degree or employment prospects. Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology was very active in lobbying its local Deputies as was Tralee Institute of Technology. Cork, as I am sure Senator Ryan will know, was active as well. All along the west coast, people felt removed from this House. Presidents of students' unions did not even know that the NUI or Trinity College had a vote and when they became energised by this prospect, they were very encouraged.
I refer also to the media in those areas. I did 14 radio interviews in the 12 hours following our launch which was extraordinary. I am not talking about Dublin radio but about Highland Radio and radio in Louth and other such places. Coverage was widespread. It goes back to Colin Joyce's point that third level institutions are political perhaps with a small "p", whether party political or whether involved in Amnesty International. The people concerned are politically active. Student politics is also active. This could provide a forum in which they could continue because levels of participation and interest in politics in general in this country are dropping. This is a way in which we can contribute in a small way to ongoing interest.
How would Graduate Equality feel about an undergraduate constituency?
I am not sure I understand.
Students could have a constituency of their own and elect somebody to this House.
It was brought forward in a previous submission we heard.
Mr. Joyce
To a certain extent, they have that level of representation through the Union of Students in Ireland.
However, not in this House.
I am talking about electing someone in the same way the universities do.
Mr. Joyce
I would not be against it. It is an interesting idea and one I would strongly consider. I am sure each of the political parties would look at who was elected each time. If one goes through the role of honour of people elected to student unions and cross-references it with elected representatives, quite a few from all political parties have been involved in both.
It might be interesting to Senator Brian Hayes's party that I ran a survey in 1995 of all Dublin Institute of Technology students. If I recall correctly, the results showed that, among those surveyed, support for the parties ran at 37% for Fianna Fail, 17% for the Green Party, 15% for Sinn Féin, 10% for Labour and 9% for Fine Gael. At the time I was informed that the survey must have been rigged. However, it was a sign of the way people were thinking and showed that there was a protest group with equal strength to that of a political party.
In that event, we are definitely not in favour of giving a vote to students.
We will not open that wider debate. I thank the representatives of Graduate Equality, Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Joyce, for their attendance and input into the sub-committee's deliberations.
The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at2.30 p.m.