Committee on Public Petitions díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2023

Decisions on Public Petitions Received

Chairman

We have three petitions for consideration today. Petition No. 36 of 2021 is entitled Reform of Insurance for Thatched Heritage Buildings and was submitted by Ms Katie McNelis. This petition relates to the difficulties people have in getting insurance for residential and commercial thatched properties. The secretariat corresponded with the Central Bank on behalf of the petitioner in October 2021. The Central Bank responded in March 2022 and its response was forwarded to Ms McNelis and a copy of the petition and the correspondence was also forwarded to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman for comment. It responded in April and this response was forwarded to the petitioner. The secretariat was in contact with the petitioner since and in June 2022, Ms McNelis sent a copy of the letter from the thatched property insurance action group, TPIAG, to the Minister of State with responsibility for heritage and electoral reform, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to the secretariat. The petition and all correspondence, including a copy of the letter from the TPIAG was sent to the following for comment: the Minister of State with responsibility for financial services, credit unions and insurance, Deputy Sean Fleming, at the Department of Finance; the Minister of State with responsibility for heritage and electoral reform, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage replied to the secretariat on behalf of Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, on 5 August 2022. The Department's reply also included a copy of the response, which was issued to the TPIAG on 3 August 2022 from the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for information. Following on from this, the committee invited the petitioner and relevant Ministers in to speak to them about the petition. On 29 September, the petitioner and two other representatives of the TPIAG presented to the committee on her petition. Following that, on 24 November 2022, the Minister of State, with responsibility for financial services, credit unions and insurance at the Department of Finance, Deputy Sean Fleming, and the Minister of State with responsibility for heritage and electoral reform at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, presented to the committee on the petition. Since then, the secretariat has again corresponded with Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan and the Minister of State, Deputy Sean Fleming, seeking an update on behalf of Ms McNelis. A reply was received from the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, on 8 February 2023.

The committee recommends that the correspondence from Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, be sent to the petitioner for comment within 14 days and that the November 2022 report entitled Report on Insurance and Fire Safety in Thatched Properties, which was commissioned by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, be circulated to the petitioner for her information. Do members have any views? It is a comprehensive document of 54 pages with a lot in it. There is no other way of putting it. It must be infuriating for the owners of these properties and those who have thatched roofs. While we have forwarded the report to the petitioner, it in no way offers a solution as far as I can see. We look forward to the petitioner's views on it. In the meantime, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, has noted that the Department of Finance is due to hold a roundtable discussion on thatched roofs with insurance stakeholders. We have been hearing about that for a while now. I do not know how soon we will hear back on that. The Minister of State has not indicated whether he will attend the meeting himself. We will ask and see what comes back from it. The report is there. I do not believe it will satisfy the petitioners. Do any members have any other views?

Deputy Pat Buckley

Ms McNelis's statement, in one of the many pieces of correspondence here, sums it up when she says:

If you can't get insurance there is no competition. All you get in this country is a stick. You get fined if you do not maintain a heritage building and yet you cannot insure it. There needs to be a carrot somewhere or heritage buildings will be lost forever in Ireland.

This makes for a very honest statement. It seems that the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, the Central Bank of Ireland, and everybody is involved here but there seems to be no answer. The statement from Ms McNelis is a testament to what could possibly happen here. Our heritage and our tourism is vital to us. Surely there has to be some middle ground where somebody can find some way or a common sense approach on it. I do not believe the petitioner will be happy with the recommendations. It is a very comprehensive report on it. I congratulate the secretariat and the staff of the committee. They put a lot of work into this. I do not know where or how it is going to be resolved but the end product is that we will lose our heritage. I know of people who had public houses and got rid of the thatch roofs and put slate roofs on. We are going to lose it. I do not know where this is going to go.

Chairman

That will be one of the sad things about it. If it is not resolved by some of the Departments, or if they cannot get some insurance company to do it at a reasonable price, we will lose it. Thatched roofs are known all around the world as part of Irish heritage. I can just think of Holycross in my constituency where it is the first thing that hits you when you come into the village. Adare village in Limerick is another place. They are all over the country. As I have said, it is a massive report. We have gone through it, but I do not believe it resolves anything for the people who presented here. One of the gentlemen who presented went through all the fire safety measures he had done in the place he had bought but he just cannot get insurance. If one cannot get insurance then a lot of people who have thatched buildings, who may be of an elderly age, will not stay. If they pass away, if anybody coming behind them cannot get insurance they will just rip off the thatched roof and we will lose it. Once we lose something it is lost for good. We will keep the pressure on the Ministers and we will see what comes out of that. As Deputy Buckley has said, the committee secretariat has put in a lot of work into this so far and that will continue.

Petition No. 36 of 2022 is entitled Re-open Ennis, Nenagh and St. John’s Emergency Departments and was submitted by Ms Noeleen Moran. This petition is submitted on behalf of the mid-west hospital campaign group and demands the upgrading of the three hospitals to model 3, as well as the reopening of the emergency departments. It was before the committee on 13 October 2022. The secretariat corresponded with Mr. Ray Mitchell, national assistant director, parliamentary affairs division, HSE, on 29 June 2022 and received a reply on 4 August 2022 from Ms Pamela Jensen enclosing a response from University Limerick Hospitals Group, which was then forwarded to the petitioner for information. The petitioner further corresponded on 12 September 2022 with documentation which has been sent to mid-west public representatives in support of her petition. The secretariat also sent the petition and the correspondence from UL Hospitals Group to the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and advised the HSE of same. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health was also consulted with, and that committee advised the Committee on Public Petitions that this topic is not on its work programme. Earlier this month, a supporter of the petition, Ms Maria McMahon submitted correspondence to the committee. The committee recommends that the response from Ms McMahon be sent to the HSE and to the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, for comment within 14 days and a current update on the situation be sought from the Minister.

I thank the petitioners for bringing the petition to this committee. It has gone to the health committee and it sent it back here to us. It is a very important petition for the people of the mid-west area. We have been in touch with them. Many families have been affected by the pressure on University Hospital Limerick and the emergency department. It covers Ennis, Limerick and north Tipperary. I would also like to acknowledge the work being done by the committee secretariat here on our behalf in corresponding with all the parties involved. As such, it must be noted that this committee, or any committee up here, must follow procedure.

Any change to the procedure may have a negative impact on the result of the petition. That is something no one, including the committee, the petitioners, people involved in the group or the public, would want. If we try to skip procedures, the result can be delayed. It can be frustrating for people who are caught up in it, but I assure the Mid-West Hospital Campaign and others who are interested that the committee and its secretariat are doing as much as we can as quickly as we can. We all appreciate that at times it is slow. We are engaging extensively with the UL Hospitals Group, the HSE and the petitioners. Our ambition is to address the concerns of the petition and get the matter resolved as quickly as possible. I hope that explains that for this or any committee, a procedure is in place that we have to follow whether we like it or not, even if it is slow in getting progress. That is the situation.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I echo what the Chair said. It was the same in our previous conversation with the Ombudsman. Sometimes people do not like the response, but the Chair is correct that there are procedures and it takes time. I know people want it to be addressed urgently but I ask the petitioners to have patience. A lot of work has gone into this. The Chair is correct that the committee aims to get the best result. I agree with recommendations. As we said, it is a two-way situation or perhaps a three- or four-way situation. We must keep all the lines of contact open and hope that between contacting the HSE, the Minister for Health and back and forth to the petitioners, it will be resolved. I ask for patience.

Chairman

As Deputy Buckley and I said, if we do not follow procedure, we run the risk that the matter will be pushed back, pushed out or that it will not be heard the way it should be and then not given the correct and proper consideration. I assure petitioners that the clerk to the committee and the rest of the secretariat are doing as much work as they possibly can in trying to resolve the matter as quickly as they can. That is the recommendation.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Petition No. 2 of 2023 on mental health matters was submitted by Mr. Michael Kenneally. In this petition, the petitioner requests that he be a representative for people suffering with mental health issues. The committee recommends that the secretariat engage further with the petitioner as the petition lacks the detail needed to pursue it any further. Do members have any views or is it agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of public petitions this afternoon. I invite members of the public to submit petitions via our online portal, which is available at petitions.oireachtas.ie. A petition may be addressed to the Houses of the Oireachtas on a matter of general public concern or interest in any issue of public policy.

I thank the staff of the secretariat for the work they do on our behalf. It makes our job easy. I assure everyone that we probably have one of the best secretariats in this complex.

Deputy Pat Buckley

We have the best secretariat. It is as simple as that.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.24 p.m. sine die