Vol. 5 No. 2
I beg to move:
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“Go mbeid siad so leanas ina n-Aireachta nach baill den Ard-Chomh- airle a sealbhoiri, Talmhuiocht, Iascach, Rialtas Aitiuil, Oifig an Phuist.” |
“That the following be Ministries the holders of which shall not be mem bers of the Executive Council, viz., Agriculture, Fisheries, Local Govern ment, Post Office.” |
I beg to second.
Before we pass this motion, I would like to raise the question whether or not experience of the past year justifies the appointment of a Minister for Fisheries. I have no doubt whatever that there is great work to be done, and very important work to be done, in the Department of Fisheries, but I am raising again what I raised before, and that is whether this Department is of such importance at present, and whether it is even possible to place it in a position of importance such as to justify the appointment of a Minister in charge. I am not going to find very great fault with it, but I am very doubtful indeed whether the work to be done in connection with fisheries will justify the appointment of a Minister, specially in charge of the Department, unless we can be assured that the finance that is necessary to put this on a proper basis to justify a Ministry is likely to be forthcoming. I do not think that anything that was reported, to the Dáil at any rate, would warrant us in saying that the work of this Department requires the attention of a special Minister. I can readily conceive that it may do so provided that finance was available in sufficient quantity; but there is no appearance of that, and I think that unless there is some promise that money will be available for the very extensive development that this Department of the National life demands, a Minister in charge of it is not required at the present stage.
With regard to this Ministry of Fisheries, I think it can only be justified on the grounds that there are fish in the rivers and in the seas around our coast. There is no use in having a Minister for Fisheries without having the fish, and I would like to know from the recent occupant of the office what has been done and what is being done at the moment in regard to our inland or our sea fisheries. Complaints have been made by the fisherman on practically every river that nothing has been done to protect the fish. The Ministry of Fisheries has been in existence for some time, and I would like to know what is being done, now that the spawning season has commenced or is about to commence, to preserve our spawning rivers.
In the constituency I represent nothing to my knowledge has been done to protect fisheries. Money can be found for everything else in the country evidently, sometimes to the tune of millions, but this matter of fisheries, that requires very little expenditure and that would repay the country perhaps ten hundred per cent., has been left without attention. Practically all our fisheries have been denuded of fish. During the recent trouble, when there was no law or protection, all the spawning beds were denuded of fish. Dynamite had been used in the destruction of fish, and fish have been killed wholesale. At the present time fishermen on the Nore, the Suir, and the Barrow are making complaints to me and to other Deputies that there is no protection whatsoever for the fish, and they want protection. They even suggest that if there was nobody else to protect them, the military, who have little to do at the moment, should be sent out. There is no use in burking the fact that nothing has been done. I should know a little about fisheries, and I did not acquire my knowledge second-hand. I have had experience and have lived by fisheries for some time. I know all that there is to be known about fisheries. The Minister has this advantage, that he might be able to educate the fish how to protect themselves, seeing the profession that he has been brought up to.
I would like an assurance that the remnant of the fish left will be protected, and that the spawning stocks will be preserved. You have no use in appointing a Minister for Fisheries if a serious effort is not made at the beginning of the spawning season. If a serious effort is not made there is no use in proceeding with the farce of appointing a Ministry of Fisheries which would be a Ministry in name only.
My complaint against the continuation of the Ministry of Fisheries is not that it would not be necessary, but because, in view of the finance of the country, it would be a farce to continue the Ministry and grant it £30,000 a year. The expense of the Ministry in respect of salaries and wages is £22,000, and the amount of money which these gentlemen administer is £30,000. I put it to you, is it a reasonable proposition to appoint a Minister when you have no money to develop the Department of which he is the head?
Would it not be better to wait until our finances are in a proper state before starting off with a Minister and a Department and all the other paraphernalia which can give no results because there is no money to spend? The whole thing is really a farce and a laughing stock for everybody on the ground of expense. We should abolish the Ministry, and when we have the money let us support our fisheries, because I believe the fisheries of the country, if properly handled, would yield us as much possibly as the land. For these reasons I am opposed to the appointment of a Minister for Fisheries at present.
I regret very much that nothing has been said about the creation of a Ministry of Health. The medical profession, at all events, have been looking forward with some hope that in the new appointments to be made by the present Dáil a Ministry of Health would be among the Ministries formed. I have not urged this matter very strongly because of the expense connected with it. One does not want to multiply the number of Ministries, but, as I said on a past occasion, surely the health of the people is of more importance than the fish in the rivers and in the seas.
Question.
We all know, at all events, that we cannot have a healthy population if the health of the people is not looked after, and I say deliberately that the public health of the country is in a very serious condition. I am not going to press this matter at the present moment, because I feel like an orphan in this assembly. I am not going to press the President to add to his Ministries that other Ministry of Public Health, but I am going to suggest that the Government should do the next best thing, and that a Public Health Department should be formed within the Ministry of Local Government, and that there should be a Parliamentary Secretary in the Dáil who would be responsible for the Public Health Department of the Ministry of Local Government.
I admire very much the work done as Minister for Local Government by Deputy Blythe. He made himself thoroughly acquainted with the matters relating to the public health of the country, and as we know, he proposed to introduce a Public Health Bill which is one of the Bills that has been delayed owing to the work that the Government had to do before the dissolution of the last Dáil. I am very conscious that it will be a difficult matter to get a Minister who will be able to follow in the footsteps of Deputy Blythe. Deputy Blythe had made himself very thoroughly acquainted with the needs of the country, and he understood very clearly the matters that were necessary to help in the public health administration. Perhaps the President will give me some encouragement by saying that the Government will form such a Department within the Ministry of Local Government and that some Deputy will be responsible for public health matters in the Dáil.
I am one of those who, in the first instance, opposed the formation of this Ministry of Fisheries, but the Dáil, in its wisdom, thought otherwise. The Ministry was formed, and I am not going to oppose it now. But I think the whole Department ought to be scrapped. As far as I know, it consists of scientists and messenger boys. The scientists are no good, and they never produce anything. You get treatises that repel by their very appearance. They could never discover anything. They never discovered a new fishing ground. I must beg their pardon. I think they discovered, two or three years ago, a fish off the Kerry coast that was not caught in any other place except off the coast of Spain. That is so much to their credit. Deputy Gorey says there is no fish. There is any amount of fish. There are hundreds of thousands of square miles of fishing grounds off the coast of Ireland, and up to Iceland, and there has not been the slightest effort made to develop them. Men from the East coast of England come over and take the fish away. We have a Ministry of Fisheries with an income of £30,000, and only £3,000 is spent upon development. All the rest goes on the messenger boys and the scientists, who never produce anything at all. I think that the whole of them ought to be turned out and men put into the Ministry who know something about the business and who would develop the fisheries of the country. This previous Ministry of Fisheries have not yet published their report for 1921. My boots were nearly worn going to Eason's, before the last Dáil dissolved, to try and get the report for 1921, but it has not turned up yet. They are overpowered with work, but what they are doing I cannot see.
Ní fheadar an cóir no an ceart domh-sa éinnídh a rádh sa cheist seo, acht caithfead-sa a rádh gur dóigh liom gur náireach an rud a dubhairt an teachta Seosamh Mac Brighde. Is an-fhuirist cainnt a dhéanamh mar gheall ar dhaoinibh nach bfhuil láithreach, acht sé mo thuairim-se nach cóir é nuair nach bfuilid láithreach cumh iad féin do chosaint.
I think that Deputy MacBride's talk about our scientists and the officials of the Department is very ill-mannered, to say the least of it. It is very cheap for Deputies to get up here and criticise officials who cannot defend themselves. These officials, in a sense, of course, were traditional. They were handed down to me from the C.D.B. and the D.A.T.I. At least they have worked loyally with me, and they have performed their duties to my satisfaction. I think it is very bad taste of any Deputy to get up in the Dáil and criticise persons who cannot defend themselves here. Deputy MacBride stated, and the same mistake was made by other Deputies, less ill-mannered, I should say, that there was only £3,000 for development and that the rest was spent upon administration. Deputies will remember that when the estimates were brought up it looked as if there was only £3,000 for development, but I pointed out that there was money coming from the C.D.B., something like £25,000 or £45,000—I have not the figures with me—that was also to be spent upon development. When persons criticise it would be well that they should have their figures made up more correctly than the criticisms I have heard this evening would show.
I should say I agree almost entirely with Deputy Johnson. I agree that it is a joke to have a Ministry of Fisheries if it is not financed, and I hope that the finance will be forthcoming. Deputy Gorey asked me about the protection of spawning beds. Under the existing law that is the duty of the Conservators. The Ministry has really very little control, except inasmuch as it makes a small grant annually to the Boards, and that is the only power the old Fishery Department had as far as protection was concerned. The Boards of Conservators appointed bailiffs, or whatever they were called, to supervise the rivers, and actually in Deputy Gorey's own county my information is that there was an extraordinary improvement through the action of the Civic Guard and the military in the county. I think that is all that it is necessary for me to say. I feel it would be rather bad taste on my part to defend the Ministry to which I am attached.
It appears that some of the recent speakers are under the impression that we are criticising or have under consideration the work of the Department of Fisheries. The real question at issue is whether a separate Ministry of Fisheries should be set up or not. While agreeing with what Deputy Johnson has said, that there is little use in having a Ministry unless it is properly financed, I do hold that a separate Minister for Fisheries is essential. Knowing something of the condition of our fisheries on the western coast I believe that there is there a vast field for development. We have very few industries in Ireland, but I am confident that fishing could be developed very much to the benefit of the people who work in the industry, and also the people who through its development would be provided with cheap and wholesome food. Anyone who knows conditions there, and who has seen, as I have, fishermen unable to send out their boats owing to want of proper tackle and appliances, while, at the same time, trawlers coming over from Fleetwood and Hull rake up at the very doors of the fishermen the harvest that should be theirs, must admit that it is essential a special Department of the Government should be set up to look after what could be a great industry in this country. If that is to be done properly, it must, as Deputy Johnson stated, be taken seriously, and a matter of £3,000 or £30,000 is nothing when compared with the results that may be attained by properly dealing with the whole question on a big scale. I do not agree with the policy of my friend, Deputy Wilson, in waiting until the finances are there. You will not have the finances if you wait. The way to provide finances and to provide employment and money in the country is to set about the development of industries such as this, and for that reason I am prepared to support the establishment of the Ministry of Fisheries.
I wish to support the appointment of a Minister for Fisheries. I wish to mention that in the county from which I come there are a number of lakes to which large numbers of visitors came from different parts of England to fish. Owing to the fact that during the last three, four, or five years 90 per cent. of the trout that went up to spawn in the rivers never came back, that industry at the present time is practically extinct. In the last couple of years you could count the boats during the May-fly fishing season, whereas four or five years ago, when there was protection, the lakes in that county were dotted with fishing boats. An immense amount of money was spent in the county by the visitors. I would ask the Minister for Fisheries to endeavour during the coming spawning season to see that the gross abuses which existed, and which I can guarantee to prove did exist, will be stopped. Otherwise it would be much better that the rivers should be blocked up, so as not to allow the trout up to spawn, because when they did go they never came back, and the rivers are so depleted that fishing has become a bye-word. Instead of going to fish now you might as well go out and take the fresh air.
With regard to the remarks of Deputy Sir James Craig, I think it should be clear to the Dáil that there could be no question of having a Department of Public Health and a Department of Local Government at the same time. The Department of Local Government is really, so far as it goes, a Department of Public Health. Nearly all the activities of that Department, if you leave out roads, are concerned with Public Health. Housing and the relief of the necessitous are really matters for a Department of Public Health. The medical charities or the provision of medical relief is also a matter for the Public Health Department. In the Ministries Bill, which it was not possible to bring before the Dáil, I believe it was the intention that the name should be the Department of Local Government and Public Health, and that the National Insurance Commission would come in under that Department. It would then be merely a matter of choosing a name. It could be the Department of Health, or the Ministry of Health, or any other name that was suggested. It is intended really to give a substance to the Department of Health. There are one or two functions added to it which it is thought would be an administrative convenience to have added.
In view of the discussion that has been created by the suggestion that Ministries should be allocated in advance, I would like to suggest to the President quite briefly, that it might be better to adopt the procedure adopted in the previous Dáil. Instead of deciding before the Committee meets what are the posts to be filled by the Committee, the Committee itself should undertake the consideration both of the Departments to be created, which are non-Executive Departments, and of the Ministers who shall fill those Departments. It has been urged that certain revision of Departments should occur. A proposal has been made that one Department shall be deleted. Before any decision can be taken on matters of that kind it is perfectly clear that detailed information would be required, such as is not before the Dáil at the present moment, and which is not likely to be before the Dáil under its present constitution. It is rather a matter to be looked into by a Committee that might call special evidence from the Departments concerned. I therefore suggest, without going into any details, that if the Dáil were to proceed with Resolution 3, appointing the Committee as required under the requisite Article of the Constitution—Article 55—that the Committee might be charged not merely with appointing names to certain Departments, but that the Committee might bring recommendations before the Dáil as to what other Departments should be created beyond the six Departments already defined, as existing within the Executive Council.
I notice that during the contests that have just taken place throughout the country a great deal of lopsided financial propositions were dealt with, sometimes in publications, and at other times by speakers. Amongst the rest, in some parts of the country this particular Ministry may have been under discussion. It would appear from an examination of the estimates for Fisheries that there was some extraordinary extravagance and that where development is only put down for £3,000 the total gross cost of the Ministry would be £55,500.
I spoke to the Minister for Fisheries a couple of days ago and told him that, so far as I could see, his particular Ministry would be probably criticised and that its retention would probably be questioned in the Dáil. In considering this particular Ministry one ought to bear in mind what the circumstances of the moment are, and what they have been for the past few years, not alone in this country, but in England, Scotland, and on the Continent. One should see how the fisheries developed or how the industry of fishing progressed in England during the last couple of years and what its condition is to-day: We should take stock of our particular position with regard to this industry.
I understand there is no country in Europe with such a coast line suitable for fisheries as we have, and I suppose there is no country in Europe where the fishing industry is at such a low ebb as it is in this country. That there are potentialities in the fisheries of this country, both internal and external, I think everybody will admit. Even if there is not sufficient money available to develop fisheries, surely it is not waste of money to have a Minister appointed who will consider how it is best to accommodate the expenses of such development with the financial condition of the country. I have gone through the report which I have got from the Minister for Fisheries on this subject, and in it attention is drawn to the fact that the fishing industry not alone in Ireland, but in Great Britain, was at its lowest ebb during the last twelve months. It was due to three causes. The European markets, it appears, were disorganised through political upheavals. Mackerel was not in demand in the big centres of population in England since these markets were flooded with fish carried on the steam trawling fleets which had just begun to operate after the war, and even these steam trawling companies were unable to make ends meet. The general conditions prevailing in Ireland during 1922 did not lend themselves to the development of an industry such as that of fishing, which requires prompt delivery and excellent transit and accommodation, more than is supplied by the ordinary times of the departure and arrival of trains that one sees in the railway companies notices. It is well known that the loss of a train may possibly involve enormous loss to persons engaged in this calling. The Minister has shown me tables dealing with the number of English, Scottish and Irish steam vessels. In England the number is over 2,000, in Scotland it is nearly 1,000, and in Ireland 11. Motor vessels in England number 468, in Scotland over 2,000, and in Ireland 291. Sailing vessels in England number over 500, in Scotland over 4,000, and in Ireland the number is written down as 3,089, and it is remarked underneath that that number includes 1,639 rowing boats. The report goes on to say what has been done even under these very depressing and unusual conditions. It states that the fishing season opened last spring, and the task was to induce the fishermen to go to sea. Many boat-owners had no nets fit for fishing. Their gear had become worn out in fruitless efforts in 1921, and they had no means to buy new ones. Loans were given by the Ministry to equip the Arklow fleet for the south-west mackerel season which opened in April, and even with the provision of gear they were unwilling to undertake the voyage to Baltimore and other places, as the railway service from Cork to those fishing places was still suspended. The Ministry was compelled to set up a scheme for the transit of these catches to the nearest port to the Welsh markets. The catches were sold in bulk in Milford Haven by a salesmaster, but the scheme did not prove a financial success, as the fish were late in striking the coast, and the weather was wet and stormy and unsuitable for fishing. Now, the Ministry apparently was satisfied that were it not for the little assistance given in that instance it would have been impossible, if a good deal of the expenses were not available for use in the proper channels, to have got these particular facilities. Loans, it appears, were made available at Howth, and, generally speaking, from a perusal of this report I would say that the Ministry has not been idle. To my mind the actual sum that would be saved by not having a Minister appointed to this particular activity would not be a financial proposition, and I would be very glad if, in considering financial propositions, a little more study of the fundamentals of finance were given. I have observed in some publications—if I may digress for a moment—that comparisons are made between the cost of the services in 1923 and in 1916. A child in the matter of finance would tell you that it was much less expensive to live in 1916 than it now. Comparisons such as these mislead not alone the unfortunate dupe who conceives the idea of making such comparisons, but also mislead others. They do not lead anywhere, and they would not be altered if the persons issuing these publications were trying to do here what we have been trying to do for the last twelve months. Two points have been under discussion on the question of this Ministry. One is whether a Minister should be appointed at all, and another is, whether the particular Minister who has been in charge of this Ministry should be re-elected. That is not the point. The point is, that there are four Ministries put for ward by me, the holders of which will have to be recommended by a Committee of fifteen Deputies in accordance with Article 55 of the Constitution. I should say that if the Minister for Fisheries had his way a very much larger sum of money would have been included in the Estimates, but whether it is his great respect for me as Minister for Finance, or the power I had over Estimates, they were cut down. It is a very small amount. It may be, even in the exceptional circumstances through which we passed, that fishing was not economical, it is just as well that the amount was small. But there ought to be great opportunities for development, and I think every member is satisfied that there are such opportunities, and if that be so I think they warrant the appointment of such a Ministry.
