I should like to get some information as to what is the basis on which awards to persons whose houses have been commandeered by the Army are computed. Is it based on the rent of the premises, or is it some fictitious figure estimated by the Board of Works? Does the damage done by troops during the occupation of the houses come under this sub-head? In many cases, perhaps owing to want of discipline or proper supervision by superior officers, very serious damage was done. Doors and windows were smashed and a lot of unnecessary destruction occurred which could have been avoided perhaps by the enforcement of strict discipline. How much of this could really be regarded as avoidable damage?
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE No. 11—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS (RESUMED).
In the case of commandeered premises, I had each individual case examined, and what we went on was the value of the premises. That would depend on the size of the house, the district, and so on.
What is the meaning of "buildings not appropriated"?
A certain number of places such as coastguard stations and premises occupied by the military and afterwards vacated and not as yet either disposed of or given over to any other service.
And still maintained by the State?
We cannot leave them derelict.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary segregate the amounts paid for rent and the amounts paid for structural damage to buildings?
I could not. I would have to go into every item practically in each individual claim.
I see a sum of £500 provided here for the maintenance and working of drainage sluices on the Shannon. Where are these sluices? The Board of Works, I understand, also let fishing rights, for eels principally. It has been stated that these licences to fish have been given without advertisement. Will the Parliamentary Secretary see that they are advertised in future and that the highest tender is accepted?
The sluices are situated in the Shannon up as far as Lough Allen, at Athlone and various other places. They were originally put in partly for drainage and partly for navigation purposes. They have to be looked after so that the river will be kept up to a certain level, and so that it does not go below that level. Fisheries do not arise on this Vote, but we get a certain amount from fisheries which is set off against the maintenance of the Shannon Navigation Works.
Mr. HOGAN
The money is payable to the Board of Works.
Yes, but it does not come under this Vote.
Mr. HOGAN
I should like to know how many of these drainage maintenance schemes exist. I am interested in the River Fergus, which is in a very bad state. Unfortunately, boards of trustees are largely to blame. At the beginning, I think, there was a fundamental mistake made, as these boards of trustees became more or less autonomous bodies. When they repaid certain charges to the Board of Works for works that were executed 60 or 70 years ago no further control was exercised over them. They were permitted to do as they pleased. They struck a rate, and there was a certain amount of legal responsibility on them to maintain the sluices and rivers in a good condition. In the absence of law or of proper machinery for enforcing it, the statutory obligations of these bodies have gone by the board for the last ten years. In many places the boards of trustees are non-representative, and are not elected by any riparian owners. It is difficult to get a record of an election. Apparently these bodies continue in office indefinitely. I should like to know how many of these boards have been dissolved. Under the Maintenance Drainage Act, 1924, how many schemes have been transferred to the county councils, and how many will be taken in hands so as to carry out the necessary repairs that are required by that Act?
I notice that the Department is giving £25,000. It was stated that the estimated expenditure was something like £90,000. In other words, the State is giving about one quarter of the amount. I would be glad if I could get some information from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the River Fergus. When will the work begin? I realise well that the Clare County Council have adopted it and have given a promise that they would bear the expense of part of the scheme.
Is there any machinery by which the Government could expedite this question and set about draining the land, thereby doing necessary works and improvements in the immediate future? What would be the contribution of the Government, and what will be the cost of this drainage scheme? I believe a preliminary inspection has taken place, and I have no doubt an estimate has been prepared. What will the cost be and what percentage of that cost will the Government contribute?
In regard to a river in Mayo, I wish to endorse all that Deputy Hogan has said with regard to the River Fergus. The Mayo river is more important.
Question.
The argument of Deputy Hogan might not quite meet the situation. I refer to the River Robe. It has been flooding its banks for the last ten years. Whatever plan was adopted for draining this river, it has fallen into disuse. The river has been neglected and has become choked up. The situation was so serious five or six years ago that it was brought under the notice of the British authorities at the time, and even they were sympathetic enough to consider doing something. Plans were made out and levels were taken. Even the Development Grant Commissioners, or whoever had charge of the grant, allotted the sum of £3,000 for this work. Then the war came on and the plans were all dropped. The money was allowed to remain wherever it was, but the river continued flooding, and it has been flooding all the surrounding land ever since. It is pitiable to go there and hear the farmers complaining of their crops being under water year after year. How can the people till that land when they are subject to so much flooding? The Board of Works was applied to several times, and an inspector was sent there, but we did not get much further than that. I would like if the Parliamentary Secretary gave us an assurance that this serious state of affairs will be taken into consideration and that the Robe will be one of the rivers that will come under the drainage scheme. I would like him to assure us that we will get a share of the £25,000 grant. This is a very serious situation. The people are paying their taxes and their crops are being washed away. They submit that the expenditure of a very small sum would clear the river, and allow the water to flow, and so put an end to all the flooding.
I wish to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the necessity of facilitating the drainage of the Awbeg. There is some of the best land in the country in that particular area and it is continually being flooded. We heard a lot a little while ago about the great losses brought by diseases in cattle. There is no greater method of spreading disease than flooded land. Lands flooded during the winter months that have to be grazed during the summer are most dangerous. The parasites that create those diseases are hatched in the saturated land, and they are a great means of spreading disease. Along by the banks of the Awbeg some of the very best of land is completely flooded. Some farmers down there this year were not able to let their cows out; they had to confine them to the stalls during the winter months and later, because they had no dry land on which to put them. I dare say if they did allow the cattle out they probably would have got the fluke, the same as happened in County Clare and in other parts of the country. I wish to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to this matter, so that it may be possible to have an inspector sent down. If this matter were facilitated I would be very grateful.
While this discussion about drainage is going on, I would like to draw attention to the state of a river in comparison with which, unless I am greatly mistaken, the River Robe is a rivulet. It is a case that could hardly be set right by the expenditure of a small part of £25,000. I refer to the River Moy, in North Mayo. During the Christmas season I was in North Mayo. I travelled along the road from Castlebar to Ballina. Practically all that area from Castlebar to Ballina was under flood at the time. Many hundreds of people are affected by that flooding. While knowing very well that the situation there is of such a magnitude that it can hardly be dealt with by an incidental Vote like this, I should not like to let the matter go by without drawing the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to it.
I suppose if one were to allow this opportunity to pass in connection with matters affecting drainage, if one were to make representations further on in the year one might be told we appeared to be satisfied when this particular debate was proceeding. I would like to enter a plea on behalf of my constituency, and would draw attention to a drainage area which, I believe, is a scheduled one, which Deputy O'Sullivan is conversant with. That is the question of Cahore. He certainly sent an Inspector there in consequence of representations made by me, and he sent me two letters which were pretty ambiguous; they meant nothing or anything. I would like to ask if the Minister is prepared to say in what areas is the £25,000 to be expended? It is due to the House that that information he given. I do not think any useful purpose could be served by a comparison between a large river or a small river. I take it that no matter what the river is, if it overflows its banks, it will be able to create an atmosphere which is neither good for man nor beast.
In connection with the Cahore area, a doctor's certificate has been sent to the Board of Works, pointing out the fact that the river overflows its banks and keeps the land under water for about six months, is responsible for a very low state of health amongst the people. Not alone are the lands to the extent of six hundred or seven hundred acres flooded, but roads have been rendered impassable. I think everyone will agree that this is a disgraceful state of affairs. In view of the fact that this is a scheduled area, I would like some answer from the Parliamentary Secretary which will enable me to tell my constituents that something is going to be done.
My main reason for rising is to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether there is not a cipher missing in the amount set out in the Vote. Does he suggest that £25,000 would cope with the necessary drainage work in the country?
Mr. HOGAN
I have in mind particular districts where there are hundreds of acres submerged by rivers overflowing their banks. There is one river, in particular, that overflows its banks. The people are, meantime, expected to pay annuities and rates on these submerged areas. I know one person who offered his farm to anybody who would pay the rates on it. The entire farm was submerged. I know the Department is taking notice of these things, and is seriously considering them. The Deputy who is in charge of the Department has given me some information on the matter to the effect that those things are receiving attention. I am convinced they will get attention. I would like, however, to point out that immediate attention is necessary, and that the figure here does not adequately represent what is required to carry out the work intended.
This amount refers only to the maintenance of existing drainage schemes.
Mr. HOGAN
I understand that, but even where drainage districts exist at present, the amount is inadequate. I have one instance before me at the moment, where a drainage area does exist, in which 40 occupiers of land have had 664 acres submerged for eight months of the year. That is a matter that requires attention. If you have that, as one example, in one county, what must it be in other counties? I submit the matter is one that ought to be dealt with seriously and this particular method does not appear to be a particularly serious way of dealing with it.
The apology made by Deputy Corish must be the apology I make for intervening to claim a share of this £25,000. I can only say to the Parliamentary Secretary that although I may be the last in claiming a share, I hope I will be the first to be attended to when the sum comes to be allocated.
I might remind the Deputy that this sum is not for a new drainage scheme. It is for existing schemes.
Precisely. The first claim I would make is for the Glen River in the Glen of the Glenties. I might mention to the Parliamentary Secretary that he has a right to call upon the Minister for Fisheries for a contribution because he has certain rights in the river, which flows along a hatchery which he has built there. This river is a very valuable addition to the Owenee. The second river that I wish to make a claim for is in the district of Falcarragh, and it flows into Falcarragh Bay. I was recently in that district. It is the average good farming country, but it is entirely flooded over. About 200 or 300 acres of good land have been destroyed owing to the flooding. I believe, I heard at all events, that several gentlemen from the Board of Works had previously inspected this area. I know that an inspector of the Land Commission, whom I asked to report on the matter, described this as a very necessary work and one of great importance to the district. That is the Falcarragh district. The third river to which I would draw attention is near Letterkenny. It drains the country down from Kilmacrennon and flows partly through mountainy land and partly through arable land. If in the allocation of this £25,000 something is set aside for these very necessary works, I shall be very much obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary.
For the information of the Parliamentary Secretary, I can mention several streams which meander through my constituency. Before doing so I would like to bear testimony to the manner in which he has met one particular district which was badly flooded last season, that is, the area through which the Blackwater flows in the north part of the county. The River Greise, a tributary of the Barrow, has been flooding very badly recently, especially in the vicinity of Ballytore. The people have been subjected to much damage; not even the houses have escaped.
What river is that?
The River Greise.
That is a tributary of the Barrow?
Yes. It would not be a very costly work to remedy the grievance there, and it requires to be done very badly. I would be very glad if Deputy Professor O'Sullivan would give some attention to it. There are several other minor streams not yet under the control of the county council to which attention should be given. They are doing a great deal of harm and affect very seriously the people of the district through which they flow, especially one near Newbridge at a place called Clongorey. It has done a great deal of harm and obstructs people from getting the turf in the bog.
I would like to support Deputy Conlan in impressing on the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry the necessity of dealing with existing drainage schemes which are under the control of the Kildare County Council. I sent letters to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce and the Ministry of Local Government last week referring to the amount of unemployment in the county generally. I think that it would be a wise thing to get this work done now, as we have such a large number of unemployed in the rural areas. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary might have entered another sub-head here as KK, to represent Kildare, and put down a similar amount for KK as he did for the Owenmore river.
With regard to the Gárda Síochána barracks, I made the proviso that I was not exactly a living inventory of all the barracks and jails in the Saorstát. I might make a somewhat similar disclaimer as far as the rivers are concerned. There are about 300 drainage districts in Ireland, and by far the largest proportion of these are in the Saorstát. I am asked not merely to have acquaintance with existing drainage districts, but to know practically every river in the Saorstát that floods during the winter. Coming to individual streams, there was an advance of the Dalcassians from Clare in the shape of the two Deputies Hogan. They put forward claims for their particular district. Deputy P. Hogan mentioned no river in particular, but I take it that he has had the same river in mind as his colleague, Deputy Connor Hogan— that is the Fergus. Proposals have been made, as far as the Fergus is concerned, and to carry out these it is estimated that it will cost, roughly, about £15,000 to put the Fergus in a fair state. We propose that, if the County Council is willing to take on that burden of 25 per cent, that is, £3,750, that we will also make a grant of £3,750. That has been put before the Clare County Council. As I have already explained, before the Act of 1924 was passed, the total cost would have fallen on the district.
Let me here point out that we are not responsible for misbehaviour or the non-performance of their duties by the drainage boards; we have no power over them, absolutely none, except that we could go in, before the Act of 1924 was passed, attend to the drainage, and charge the cost on the farmers whose land was benefited—the whole cost of it. That was the only check, before the Act of 1924 was passed, over the drainage board or the drainage trustees. I doubt if that would have been a satisfactory solution at any time, within the last six or seven years at all events.
Now we propose to take up a number of districts. It is quite true that £25,000 is not sufficient or represents the total expenditure. I do not say a total expenditure of £90,000, but possibly between £75,000 and £90,000. That is not sufficient to meet the drainage problem of this country. There are only a certain number of works which we can undertake in any year. We calculate that with the engineering staff at our disposal, and we have increased that staff for this purpose, we will be able to do a pretty fair amount of work. So far as the rivers generally are concerned the question was asked when we may be expected to make a start. I think the question was raised in reference to the Fergus. First of all, a certain amount depends on the county council in that particular case. Secondly, a lot depends on the weather. Our principal engineer has been in the West recently, and he has reported that at present the rivers are in a condition to be dealt with owing to flooding. In Mayo the River Robe was mentioned. So far as Mayo is concerned, it is proposed to do some work there. So far as the Robe district is concerned it was planned originally in a very ambitious way. The actual estimate of the amount of benefit was altogether in excess of the benefit actually accruing from it. The expenditure was altogether underestimated. It was to a certain extent famine relief work and, like many drainage districts that came into existence at the time, when a certain amount of money was spent beyond the estimated cost, the Government of the day got frightened and stopped the work when it was only half finished. To a certain extent that is the position in regard to the Robe. The work was not properly carried out, and we have no powers to carry that work further than what was done originally. All we can do under the existing Acts is to maintain it. We have had the river inspected and I may say that some of the worst portions of it are not in the actual drainage district of the Robe. Our engineers are of the opinion that the only proper solution is a complete tackling of the problem afresh and extending the district. That cannot be done under present legislation, but a Bill will be introduced, I hope at latest, next week, which will make it possible to set up a new district. A proposition has been made in connection with portion of the river where we think useful work can be done at present. We put that before the County Council, because under the Drainage Act of 1924, if work of this kind is done by us, automatically the care of the whole district rests in the county council.
As we are dealing with only portion of the work, we thought it fair to give the county council an opportunity of declining the responsibility or not. So far as Deputy Tierney is concerned, having been down there about Christmas, he probably saw things on a big scale, and as compared with the Moy other rivers became to him merely as simple rivulets. We have no authority to do anything with the Moy at present. The same applies to that slow, sluggish, and meandering river, the Awbeg. There are difficulties there, too. If you drain the upper portion you have to provide somewhere for the flooded water, and possibly the only way to drain it is to take a certain portion of the land which you could flood lower down. Then there is a further difficulty presented by certain mills. Then there is the question of Cahore, which Deputy Corish is insisting upon bringing before the notice of the Board of Works. We had it inspected, and it would be a very costly scheme. Apart from the character of the district itself, the water comes down from the hills to the lowlands just near the shore, and there is involved the silting of the shore itself with gravel and sand. It is doubtful whether work of that kind would pay at Cahore. I promise the Deputy that before we come to a final decision it would be well to have an expert valuation of the land made.
Still ambiguous.
Not ambiguous but a little indefinite perhaps. Deputy Doherty mentioned three rivers, but I have on this occasion to plead that I know nothing about them. He assures me, however, that they are existing drainage districts and that they could be brought in under this work. As they have not been brought to my notice before, I cannot say anything definite about them now, but I will look into the matter. As regards the points mentioned by Deputy Conlan and Deputy Colohan, I may say that the Kildare County Council has, on the whole, kept the rivers entrusted to its care in pretty good order. Deputy Conlan mentioned the River Greise, a tributary of the Barrow. Its fate is indissolubly connected with the fate of the Barrow.
The remedy for the state of affairs that exists in connection with the Greise is not bound up with the Barrow, because it is a local obstruction and there is a good outfall below Ballytore to the Barrow.
What I mean is that I intended to deal with that particular tributary of the Barrow in connection with the Barrow scheme. As regards the proposal of Deputy Colohan, that we should especially devote our attention to County Kildare, I admit that there is a great amount of unemployment in County Kildare, but we can hardly undertake to restore in this year all the drainage districts there. We will do a certain amount, and in determining what districts we will take up we are trying not to confine ourselves to any particular district. Certain factors operate in choosing a district such as finding out whether certain counties are poorer than others. That in itself would be a claim. There is also the question of the state of the rivers and how far they can, comparatively speaking, be made remunerative.
I wish to ask a question which scarcely comes under this head, but it is so closely connected with it that I think it presents a suitable opportunity. I want to know is there any relation between the Land Commission and the Board of Works with regard to certain works that are carried out in the way of drainage and the maintenance of sluices. The Board of Works are doing certain drainage in the Fergus, and the Land Commission are doing certain works as well. Would it not be possible to unify the service and make them harmonise, to prevent overlapping, and to save, perhaps, a good deal of unnecessary expense.
If the Deputy wishes it, we might be willing to withdraw from the Fergus altogether.
Oh, no.
It is a matter I will look into with the Land Commission if the Deputy wishes.
Would I be in order in asking the Secretary about some rivers he has not dealt with? I am sorry I missed the earlier portion of the debate. I would like to know if he has any information about certain rivers which require drainage in my constituency. I refer to the Anner, referred to in the poem, "She lived beside the Anner." I have had communications with regard to that river There has been a considerable area flooded, and this could be remedied by clearing the bed of the river. There is another river, the Tar, a tributary of the Suir. I do not know if the Secretary has heard about it. There is a river in North Tipperary, which I think Deputy Morrissey is interested in, the Nenagh, a tributary of the Shannon. I have also had communications from my constituents with regard to that river. I do not think, however, that the Drainage Board has any responsibility in connection with these rivers.
Then the question does not arise.
And I can do nothing about it.
Under the heading of sub-head L, I see an item "Hire of plant, £2,000." Is that the income derived from dredgers, or where do you account for the income derived from them? They are costing £6,250, and I would like to know under what head is given the plant that you are hiring and that brings you in £2,000?
There are the sales of plants and things, but it is mainly the hire of dredgers.
I wish to ask why rents show only an increase of £200 on the previous year. We have had laid on the Table of the Dáil a series of documents under the State Lands Act, giving particulars of the renting of the coastguard stations, and rents for military barracks, and so on, which, though I have not had the leisure to make a complete estimate of them, strike me as likely to come over £200. Tolls and dues have increased enormously, the increase being £7,500. Surely some of those leases of lands let under the State Lands Act should be shown as rents rather than as tolls and dues? I only ask for an explanation. It is quite clear that the Departments concerned have been wisely husbanding their resources, and that a considerable amount of Government land has been let to private individuals. I think we are entitled to information as to how this is worked out in relation to the Estimate, for the increase of £200 is not quite commensurate with the operations of the Department.
So far as I am concerned, I am afraid I cannot answer that right off, but I will have inquiries made for the Deputy. I can give an explanation, I think, as to the dues and tolls. Under the State Harbours Act of last year—possibly the Deputy suspected something of the kind—it is proposed in future to charge reasonable rates to the boats that use Carlisle Pier.
But where have the rents gone?
I cannot at the moment answer that.
Then I will defer the subject to enable the Parliamentary Secretary to obtain the information, for it does appear inconsistent and unbusinesslike to lay papers on the Table of the Dáil showing that Government land has been let at in some cases considerable rents, almost in every case at rents higher than private owners would charge. The rents charged for the coastguard stations in the West of Ireland, though these stations might be more eligible than the houses in some of my cottage property, are 100 per cent. higher. It may be that the appropriations referred to last year, and that the rents only became payable possibly three months ago. These papers have been laid on the Table of the Dáil within the last six months, but if the appropriations are intended to be the appropriations of the coming financial year there ought to be a considerably larger increase than the £200, unless something has happened to account for the falling off.
I suppose we may take it that the amount set down for rents is inclusive of rents for coastguard stations? I would like to know what arrangements have been entered into between the people who have taken these houses and the Board of Works. In some areas one individual has taken a whole block of houses at what might be considered a low or nominal rent, and that individual is profiteering and charging an exorbitant rent out of all proportion to what the people would pay only they are so badly off. He can fleece them. The rent he charges is certainly not in keeping with the rents in the area. I think it inadvisable to let houses on such a system, giving them to one person at a nominal rent. Is this individual responsible for repairs or is it the Board of Works?
Following up that point, I received to-day, from Tralee, a letter touching on a similar question. I will not go into details, but I will give a general statement. A certain person has two distinct and separate quarters in the Staff barracks at Tralee. The two quarters of the barracks let to the same individual are divided. One of them this person occupies herself, and the other she sublets at 10/- per week. The rent she pays for the two is 2/6. That is my information, and it seems to be a state of things that ought to be put a stop to. It is done in the case of private houses, as Deputy Good has pointed out, but in cases where you have State-owned premises which are let at low rates we ought to be able, I think, to put a stop to profiteering of that character. I do not know whether the Minister's attention has been drawn to this sort of thing, but it is now drawn, and I hope it will be possible to prevent a continuance of it.
I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if his Department have come to any definite decision as to the letting of the married quarters in Newbridge Barracks, or does he intend to have the married quarters fenced off from the remainder of the barracks with a view to relieving the housing question? We have a very acute housing problem there, and perhaps he could see his way to letting some of these married quarters. I am informed that they are being allowed to go into disrepair, and it is a great pity to have them lying idle.
The point raised by Deputy Johnson I have heard for the first time. The facts as revealed by him undoubtedly present a case for inquiry, and this lady had no right whatsoever to sub-let. If the Deputy will give me particulars of the case I will have it looked into. As a rule, as far as coastguard stations are concerned, we prefer, if possible, to let them to the local authorities. It has not always been possible to do so, but we prefer that.
But is there anything to prevent the Parliamentary Secretary from taking them away from people who are abusing the privileges they have got? Undoubtedly that state of affairs does exist; they are absolutely fleecing the people and taking advantage of them.
If the Deputy will give me particulars of any such case, I will also have it looked into and see what can be done.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary say who is responsible for the repairs of these coastguard stations? Is it the persons who take them or the Board of Works?
It all depends on the terms on which the house has been let.
I think that the whole thing will require very careful examination.
Can the Minister give me any information on the point I raised?
I will have the Newbridge case looked into, because it hangs together with the question of the disposal of Newbridge Barracks.
I wish to raise a question regarding the provision of loans to farmers by the Board of Works. They have made a rule that they will not advance less than £35, or more than seven times the valuation——
The Deputy can raise that on the next Vote.
Vote put and agreed to.