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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Apr 1925

Vol. 11 No. 6

VOTE 31—GENERAL PRISONS BOARD.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £102,631 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun íoctha an chaitcachais mar ghcall ar Bhord Generálta na bPríosún agus na dTeaghlachaisí fé n-a smacht, Clárú na Síor-chuirptheach, agus coinneáilsuas na nGealt gCuirpthe a coinnítear in Capidéil Mheabhar-Ghalar Cheanntair (17 and 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, s. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, s. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. V., c. 58).

That a sum not exceeding £102,631 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, to defray the expenses of the General Prisons Board, and the Establishments under their Control, the Registration of IIabitual Criminals and the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics confined in District Mental Hospitals (17 and 18 Vic., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, s. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, s. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. V., c. 58).

It might help the discussion on this Vote if I make a short preliminary statement. There are in use throughout the State, eight prisons and one Borstal Institution. The daily average of prisoners in some of the country prisons is comparatively small. In the year ending 31st March last, the average for Dundalk was 37, for Galway 45, for Waterford 49, and for Limerick 54. These were the daily average population. In these prisons which I have named, Dundalk, Galway, Waterford and Limerick, it is necessary to maintain a governor, a medical officer, chaplains, and a staff of warders. It might be considered that it would be a saving, in addition to the convict prison at Maryborough, to have one large prison for each province, say, Mountjoy for Leinster, Cork for Munster, Sligo for Connaught and Donegal. On examination, that would not work out as an economy. The population of the State is scattered and the railway facilities are not always convenient. The hardships of conveying prisoners long distances in winter and in inclement weather are obvious, and it was found, on examination, that against the saving, not a very large saving, in establishment, the cost of a large increase to the Gárda Síochána for escort purposes would have to be put to the cost of conveyance. Then, in the case of remands for short periods, and committals for trial, it would be difficult for prisoners to arrange for their defence if sent far away from their friends and legal advisers. That is one of the points urged against the reduction of prisons before several Prisons' Commissions. Then there is the case of short sentences, from seven to fourteen days, for minor offences and where persons cannot or are not prepared to pay fines and prefer to serve a term of imprisonment. Naturally, the Justice would consider the hardship and expense of sending prisoners long distances for short terms in the absence of a convenient local prison. In that way a situation would be brought about where there would be almost immunity for lesser infringements of the criminal law. That would be a serious matter because it is often through small beginnings of that kind that people graduate to more serious forms of crime, and anything in the nature of immunity or comparative immunity for small offences would react badly, I believe, on our general social welfare. This matter was discussed before a Commission and there was only one remedy suggested, that is the establishment of police lock-ups throughout the country. There was considerable opposition to that proposal Mr. Parnell and the late Dr. Sigerson both opposed it strongly before the Commission and pointed out that there were serious objections, and I think there are serious objections, to untried persons being left in the care of police while awaiting trial.

Considerations of that kind led us to believe that there is really very little room at present for the reduction of prison establishments, but reductions will be made wherever and whenever it is considered feasible. The number of warders employed on the nine prisons in use at present has increased from 223 in 1914 to 259 in 1925, although the daily average number of male persons in custody in these prisons is 802 as against 1,002 in 1914. That increase is due to the introduction of the 8-hour day in 1919, previous to which the warders' working day was ten hours. The industrial argument, that you can get as much done in eight hours as in longer spells of work, does not apply to the special work of prison warders, because the warders must be on duty or the prisoners must be locked up for longer periods than would be justifiable.

There is no standard output.

No, there is no standard output. I just want to touch briefly on a matter that we were urged to consider and that is the question of a prison at Letterkenny. Certain Donegal Deputies had an idea that a good deal of money is wasted sending Donegal prisoners to Sligo jail. We did consider the question of establishing a small prison at Letterkenny last year, and the following conclusions were arrived at. The daily average number in custody would probably not exceed fifteen and the following staff would be required as a minimum:—a chief warder, four warders, three wardresses, one medical officer, and one chaplain. The saving under the heading of escort and conveyance on the establishment of such a prison would be about £284 per annum. The approximate annual cost of the proposed new establishment would be about £1,400 per annum and the project was dismissed on these grounds.

I thoroughly approve of the Minister's decision with respect to the establishment of a prison at Letterkenny, seeing that it is not an economic proposition. I am prepared to accept the Minister's assurance that the economy is on the other side and I do not, therefore, wish at the moment to press for the establishment of a prison at Letterkenny. However, there is another matter to which I wish to refer. There is some difficulty under the Judiciary Act under which, when persons are arrested for certain offences, the Peace Commissioners have no authority to give bail. The result is that if the District Justice is not available the person has to be sent to jail. In our county which is very scattered, the District Justice may be sixty or seventy miles away or more, at a Court, when a man is arrested. It would be impossible for him to attend to consider the case, consequently, the man has to be brought before a Peace Commissioner. That Peace Commissioner can only detain him twenty-four hours, but he cannot admit him to bail. Therefore he has to be sent a distance of seventy miles in some cases to the prison at Sligo, at the cost of a motor service, and he has to be brought back to be tried by the District Justice.

I think there is some defect in the Act when it is not permitted to the Peace Commissioners to exercise a discretion in these cases and take bail when the next court day is near at hand. If the Peace Commissioners were given that discretion, the expenses incurred and, in my opinion, unnecessarily incurred, in conveying prisoners on remand to Sligo Jail, a distance of 70 miles, and in bringing them back the next day or two days later, could be avoided. That is the point that I wish to impress on the Minister, and I suggest that big economies could be effected if what I ask were done.

I hope the Minister has not finally closed his mind with regard to the question of the amalgamation of the jails. A good deal has happened since the Commission sat which inquired into the suggestion before Motor cars are used more freely now than they were then. I think the instance which the Minister himself gave about Letterkenny, and the facts that he gave about it, are in themselves a strong argument in favour of amalgamation. I did not catch all the figures which the Minister quoted, but from what he did say he has failed to convince me that there will not be a great saving in doing away with a lot of these smaller jails. I think it would be an advantage to the localities in which these smaller jails are to have them removed altogether.

You would then have the local traders up against you.

When you think of the staff, the cost of lighting and heating and their upkeep generally, it must be admitted that these are very expensive establishments. Under a scheme carried out during the last two years or so, hospitals and unions have been amalgamated. The central hospitals that have now been established are provided with motors, and why should not the large jails have a number of motors attached to them. A shilling telegram would bring a motor from the jail to the town where the court was being held. The escort could travel in it, and take the prisoner back to the jail. A scheme of that kind would, I believe, effect a great saving of public money. It would be better, too, for the prisoner. The only thing that weighs with me is the point that the Minister made, namely, that the prisoner would be away from his solicitor. The suggestion is, that the prisoner would not have an opportunity of consulting his solicitor or his friends. That is a point certainly against the reduction of the number of jails, but I think that point could be met by bringing the prisoner to the local barracks where he could meet his solicitor some time before the trial took place. Certainly, a great saving could, I think, be effected by doing away with these smaller jails.

I think also, though this is a big question, that the Minister should give some thought to the reformation of those jails. The system carried out in them is a very old one. It was conceived at a time when people revelled in punishment. It is a debasing and a degrading system. Other countries have devoted a lot of thought to prison discipline and prison treatment. They have softened it down and humanised it. Our system, which we have inherited from the British, needs a great deal of softening down and of humanising. It is simply awful the way some prisoners are treated under this system. A lot of these offenders are men not of very strong mind. Imagine, therefore, these men spending most of the day and the night in a cell by themselves. Weak as their minds are before they go in, this treatment tends to drive them to insanity. I spent unfortunately a good many months listening to their talk, and I certainly came to the conclusion, from listening to them, that the jail system, as at present, needs a great deal of improvement. The Minister up to this had a great many things to attend to, and I admit had no time to inquire into reforms in the present system. I do hope he will keep it in mind, and that our system in the Free State will be brought up to date and on a level with the more humane system which prevails in other countries.

There is only one matter that I think it advisable to raise now, and I am doing so in order to give the Minister an opportunity of stating exactly what the position is. I refer to the rumours which have been going around during the last few weeks as regards some trouble at Portlaoighise prison. Stories have been told as to trouble having arisen there out of the reading of an Episcopal pronouncement in the prison chapel, and as to what happened afterwards. Perhaps the Minister would avail of this opportunity and tell us exactly what the trouble was, and what the position there is now.

As regards sub-head (h)—Rent, I would like to have an explanation from the Minister as to that. What, I ask, does rent signify? I understood that all prison property was State property. I would also like to have an explanation as regards sub-head (o), which makes provision for an expenditure of £11,500 for the maintenance of criminal lunatics in district mental hospitals. There is a foot-note at the end dealing with this sub-head, which states: "The provision under this sub-head includes the estimated cost of maintenance of soldiers and sailors committed to mental hospitals in Ireland under Section 91 (2) of the Army Act of 1881." The note goes on to state that these soldiers and sailors, although they have committed no crime, are classed as criminal lunatics in consequence of a mistake in the drafting of the section of an Act of Parliament. What I want to know is, how it comes that these criminal lunatics can be sent to Ireland, where they have to be maintained in our mental hospitals at the expense of the Free State? It appears that that is due to some error in the drafting of an Act of Parliament. As the Minister is of a legal mind, I would have thought that he would have rectified that error before now.

With reference to the remarks of Deputy Sears——

I take it that the Minister is not closing?

—as to looking into the present system and so on, with a view to arriving at a more humane stage, that is something which I have certainly, and without any apology, put on the long finger. It is not a serious matter; it is not an urgent matter by any manner of means, and in the order of taking things in perspective, it would be quite a long time before we would expect to reach the stage when anything could be done in that direction. I am not just satisfied without examination that very much could be done, keeping in mind the fact that prisons are not meant to be either particularly comfortable or particularly pleasant places. If they were, one possible result would be an increase in the prison population. Certainly, the conditions in Maryborough Prison, where men sentenced to long terms of imprisonment, three years and upwards, are detained, must be extremely pleasant indeed. Extracts I have seen from the letters of prisoners there have led me to regret that my short period of detention lay in Belfast prison, rather than in Maryborough. People seem to wax enthusiastic there after a short stay, and to write out letters in very high terms of the conditions, the food and the fresh air. They speak of a rapid improvement in their health, and a rapid increase in their weight shortly after arrival.

In reference to Deputy O'Connell's question as to rumours of recent trouble in Maryborough Prison it is, perhaps, just as well that I should give to the Dáil a concise statement of what actually occurred in view of the fact that rather blood-curdling stories are being set on foot. A letter appeared lately in the papers stating, I think, that nine or ten prisoners were to be flogged on Wednesday last, or some few days ago anyway, and a telegram was sent to one of the bishops to that effect. There was no truth whatever in that statement—none whatever. There have been certain troubles in Maryborough prison, but there was never any question at any time of corporal punishment in connection with those troubles. Since the establishment of the Free State, since, in fact, the setting up of the Provisional Government, corporal punishment was only inflicted on one prisoner, and that was in the year 1923, for an assault of a very serious nature on a warder. Now, the exact occurrences in Portlaoighise prison are as follows:—

On Sunday, the 29th March, thirty-seven convicts, out of 220 attending evening devotions in the prison chapel, stood up and left the building as a protest against the Pastoral Letter of Dr. Foley, which was being read by the chaplain from the altar. A sworn inquiry was held on the 1st April, when charges of gross insubordination were preferred against the thirty-seven convicts. The facts proved at the inquiry were shortly as follows:—

During the afternoon service, which consisted of devotional exercises and sermon, the chaplain proceeded to read the Bishop's Pastoral Letter, when twenty-one convicts stood up and walked out. These were removed to their cells. The priest had to discontinue his reading until they had left. Searcely had they departed when another batch, to the number of sixteen, stood up and walked out, but, refusing to return to their cells, remained in the vicinity of the church. This batch returned to their seats upon the chaplain concluding the reading of the Pastoral. The remainder of the convicts, to the number of over 180, kept their seats and maintained a reverential demeanour throughout. To the officer in charge the convicts guilty of leaving the chapel stated that they would not stand for the preaching of politics from the altar, whether inside or outside the prison, and from their protestations in the matter the natural inference must be drawn that their action was preconceived and predetermined. At the sworn inquiry the charges were proved. With the exception of four, the convicts did not hesitate to admit or seek to qualify what they had done. In fact, their demeanour was defiant and they all adopted the attitude that in similar circumstances they would repeat their misconduct. One convict from East Galway, possibly not unknown to Deputy O'Connell, stated that he "would tear the priest off the altar the next time"; another convict stated that he "would not go to Mass any more as it was no church where politics were introduced"; another stated that "the priest insulted him by alluding to robbers and murderers"; another, who had been convicted of the robbery of a bank, stated that "he wished to make restitution, but that his conscience would not let him when a priest had called him a murderer."

Now, four convicts who expressed regret for what they had done, and a determination not to misconduct themselves in the future, received punishment as follows:—Three days' confinement in their cells and bread and water diet. The remaining 33, who adopted a defiant attitude and expressed a determination to repeat the offence on any available opportunity, were punished as follows—Six months' close confinement, six months' separate confinement; dietary scale as prescribed for prisoners pending decision.

Of the convicts concerned, 25 are serving various terms of imprisonment for armed robbery, four for burglary, four for larceny or receiving stolen goods, two for forgery, one for attempted murder, one for unlawful possession of firearms, one for demanding money with menaces.

The morning after the inquiry fortythree other convicts refused to work out of sympathy with the thirty-seven convicts already mentioned. These were dealt with by the governor under the prison rules as follows:—In nineteen cases he awarded (a) three days' No. 1 punishment diet and close confinement, (b) forfeiture of fourteen days' remission of sentence, (c) forfeiture of the privilege of newspapers and library books for three months.

In twenty-three cases, where the governor considered that the convicts concerned were led away by the others, he admonished them and, in one case where the governor considered the convict to be weakminded, he advised him.

The twenty-three convicts admonished by the governor and the one advised by him immediately returned to work as did seventeen of the nineteen cases immediately upon their doing their punishment. Two convicts of the nineteen joined with some twenty-eight of the thirty-seven convicts for the offence of leaving the chapel, in going on hunger strike. This hunger strike was of rather short duration—some abstained from food only for one day; others for two, and others for three, and a few remained on strike for nine days when the whole thirty had resumed taking food. In addition to going on hunger strike some of the thirty-seven convicts, convicted in connection with the breach of discipline in leaving the chapel, engaged in breaking the cell windows. Since the abandonment of the hunger strike, however, every single convict who had been guilty of misconduct had individually apologised to the chaplain, and the governor for his misconduct in leaving the chapel, and those who were guilty of wilful damage such as breaking the windows had made good the cost. In view of these apologies and the restitution made, the dietary punishment has been remitted and the question of the restoration of the marks for remission will depend on how far the future conduct of the convicts concerned shows the sincerity of their repentance.

resumed the Chair.

I was hoping the Minister would have dealt with the point raised by Deputy Wilson.

The item for rent is, I think, in connection with the houses of officials. I am not sure of any other explanation; I rather think it is in connection with officials.

It is referred to in the note on page 110.

I am not sure of the explanation of that. I think it is that a person from Ireland joining the British Army, if found to be insane, is returned to an Irish asylum and maintained here under the Army Act of 1881, with a contribution.

There is a criminal lunatic asylum in Ireland?

There is. You mean Dundrum?

These are not kept in Dundrum. They are supposed to be criminal lunatics.

They are not, actually.

That is the point.

That is the legal position.

I do not know the explanation of that. I could look it up for the Deputy.

It came out in another case.

I am not sure of the point. I will have the point looked up, and I will write to the Deputy on it.

The matter was raised in connection with the Vote for the year before last. It appears the matter has been the subject of a discussion between the Department and the Ministry of Finance, with a view to an alteration in the law. As was pointed out here, the responsibility for keeping in the prisons persons who are sent out of the British Army or Navy to Irish prisons because they are lunatics, is, as a matter of fact, on the Irish Exchequer. The responsibility lies upon the Irish Government, because of a fault in the drafting of an old Act. Really, it is important to note that just as a matter of carelessness in drafting, the word "prisoner" is transcribed as "person" in the original, and then in subsequent Acts it appears to have been copied as "person." Because of that little blunder, we are being made to bear the responsibility. Now, that should be a warning to the Dáil as to the necessity for being very careful in passing legislation. We may put upon some authority in the future a responsibility that we have no desire to put. It seems that there are quite a number of people who have been detained as lunatics, not criminal lunatics, who have never been charged, and never been tried. There are persons who have been transferred and kept in Irish prisons as lunatics at the charge of the Irish State.

There have been a few, probably three, four, or five, since the establishment of the Free State. Others were sent, and they are still detained. They were sent before the establishment of the Free State. It is still the law, as I understand, that the British Army and Navy authorities may recruit Irishmen, and may not be too particular as to the treatment of these men, or these men may not be too sound in their mentality, or by some other means they may be declared insane, and then they may be sent over to be detained in Irish prisons without trial; and we have no remedy. It is said that certain representations have been made in that matter to the British authorities, and that it is not likely that the practice will be continued, but I think that we should legislate in such a way as to prevent that sort of thing happening, and that we should not be bound to be maintaining prisoners sent here in those circumstances. I do not know what the position is, if the prison officer declares a prisoner no longer insane. I do not know what becomes of the prisoner, whether he must be sent back to the British Army or not. But the whole matter is important enough. It is very important in principle, and it has a certain importance in matters of constitutional relations, it has a certain importance in regard to expenditure. I would ask the Minister to look into it with some care and to consider whether it is not necessary to legislate to prevent the continuance of this practice.

I was rather hoping that this Vote would not come on to-night, because there were certain matters that I wanted to raise in connection with the position of warders in prisons, and the representations that are alleged to have been made, but about which I understand the Minister does not know anything. There is a good deal of dissatisfaction in the prisons regarding the new relationships that have become prevalent between the warders and their superior officers, which are apparently not as conducive to good discipline or to general satisfaction with their functions as officers of the prisons as they used to be. I think it will be reasonable to ask, in view of taking this Vote out of its place, that we should not pass from it to-night but that we should be given an opportunity of raising this question when we come back to the Estimates. I promise not to go over other matters, but only to raise this question regarding the position of the warders, this question about which, apparently, the Minister has now no information. In answer to a question the other day the Minister said that no applications had been made. My information was to the contrary. Applications had been made, and I had intended to produce certain information which had been placed in my hands; but the papers are not here, and I cannot deal with it now. Does the Minister agree to report progress?

It was understood that progress was to be reported at 8.30.

And sit again on Wednesday.

I think to-morrow, because a difficulty has arisen in connection with the Land Bond Bill. A judicial decision has been given which, I think, makes some clauses unnecessary and makes an alteration in other clauses necessary. I do not think it could be taken before Tuesday.

We will resume on the Estimates to-morrow then.

Could the Minister direct our attention to these decisions in the courts—where will we find them recorded?

Decisions have been given in the Land Court but I do not know where you will find them recorded.

Do I understand that the External Affairs Estimate will be taken to-morrow?

The arrangement, I understand, is that we will resume the Estimates to-morrow, and that we will take up the Estimate of the Ministry of Justice. The External Affairs Estimate will not be taken up to-morrow.

Could you give any indication of what other Estimates will be taken to-morrow?

I have no information at all on that. There are the Prisons Board, the District Court, the Supreme Court and the Gárda Síochána. I think that the Minister for Justice will be satisfied if he gets all these done before 2 o'clock to-morrow, when the debate on Deputy Baxter's motion will be resumed.

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