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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 1 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 7

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 32—DISTRICT COURT.

I beg to move:—

32.--Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £41,313 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun Tuarastail agus Cóstaisí Breithiún den Chúirt Dúithche (an tAcht Cúirteanna Breithiunais, 1924, Alt 74).

32.—That a sum not exceeding £41,313 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the salaries and expenses of Justices of the District Court (The Courts of Justice Act, 1924, Sec. 74).

The expenditure provided for under this Estimate was formerly divided between the Dublin Metropolitan Police Vote and the District Justices Vote. The coming into operation of the Courts of Justice Act last year, as a result of which the Dublin Metropolitan Police Courts were abolished and one District Court set up for the whole Saorstát, made it advisable to consolidate in one Vote all the charges arising out of the payment of the salaries and expenses of the justices of the new court. In addition, the salaries and expenses of the officers of the former Dublin Metropolitan Police Courts are now transferred to this Vote. The net increase of this Vote, as compared with last year, is £4,694.

Sub-head (A) (salaries, wages and allowances), is responsible for an increase of £1,169. The item chiefly responsible for this increase is the provision for deputy justices, which is estimated at £5,334. Previously, no provision was made for the payment of deputies who were appointed to replace justices who, through sickness or otherwise, became casualties, but the experience of the past year has shown the necessity for making provision for such contingencies. This amount of £5,334 also provides, of course, for the payment of deputies during the annual leave of the permanent justices. Where absence, whether on sick leave or annual leave, is of short duration, the gap is usually filled by a neighbouring permanent justice, but this arrangement can only hold for very limited periods, as most of the justices cannot afford to take on additional duties outside their own areas or spare the time necessary for the holding of courts in places very often remote from their fixed headquarters. Deputy justices are paid the same scales of salary and allowances as the permanent justices. The former Dublin Metropolitan Police Magistrates were paid, one at the rate of £1,200 per annum, and two at £1,000 per annum, plus a bonus in each case, and that made a total annual charge of, approximately, £4,030. The justices of the District Court for the Dublin Metropolitan area are paid salaries, one of £1,200 and two of £1,100, inclusive. This shows an annual saving of over £600.

The increase of £3,625 under sub-head B is accounted for by the decision to pay justices subsistence allowance in respect of absence from their headquarters. Hitherto all justices outside of Dublin and Cork were in receipt of a commuted travelling and subsistence allowance of £200 per annum. Experience has shown, however, that under this arrangement, while a few justices were amply recompensed, the majority were at a considerable loss. No two areas are quite the same, either in point of view of area or travelling facilities, and in order that all the justices may be on a par as regards their expenses, it has been decided to pay them their actual travelling expenses and subsistence allowance in accordance with certain fixed conditions, the details of which have not yet been finally determined. Payment of subsistence allowance is made to judges of the Circuit Court, and this, in itself, constitutes a strong argument for the extension of the concession to the justices of the District Court. This arrangement also involves an increase in the provision for the expenses of deputy justices.

With regard to sub-head C—Transfer Expenses, £400—this sum is intended to cover the expenses which may be incurred by justices who have to remove their households from one part of the country to another as the result of a transfer. Sub-head D— Incidental Expenses, £200—this is intended to meet the cost of telegrams, newspaper advertising, and unforeseen contingencies.

The sum of £400, provided under sub-head A, for "Probation Officer" may possibly attract some attention. The duties of probation officers are set forth in the rules made under Section 7 of the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907. The duties are also laid down in Section 4 of the Act as follows:—

(a) to visit or receive reports from the person under supervision at such reasonable intervals as may be specified in the Probation Order, or subject thereto, as the Probation Officer may think fit;

(b) to see that he observes the conditions of his recognizance;

(c) to report to the Court as to his behaviour;

(d) to advise, assist, and befriend him, and, when necessary, to endeavour to find him suitable employment.

I think there is nothing further that I want to add.

I think there are very few Deputies indeed who have reason to complain against the Minister for Justice. He discharges his duties with great punctuality generally, but under this Vote, there is one matter connected with his Department to which I desire to call attention. We were promised that the Rules for the Courts, especially in view of the higher jurisdiction given to the District Courts, would be in operation last October, but so far they have not been issued. Solicitors and others connected with the Courts have come to me and complained that owing to the failure to have these Rules issued, things are in a state of chaos up and down the country. I want to know from the Minister what has happened as regards these Rules which, we were told, would be put into operation last October. The position, as regards the administration of people's affairs, is very serious owing to the failure to have these Rules issued. People's legal advisers do not know where they stand or on what forms they are to act. If they act on the old Rules they are not certain whether their legal rights will be safeguarded in cases where appeals may be taken. The failure to issue those Rules has caused an amount of confusion and chaos. I want to know from the Minister what is the cause of the delay in issuing the Rules and when we may expect to have them put into operation.

What, I wonder, will be the position with regard to legal acts that may have been done under the old Rules? Will these be invalidated later on because they were not carried out according to the new Rules applicable under the new Judiciary Act, especially in relation to the increased jurisdiction given to the District Courts? Numerous representations have been made to me on this matter. I am not a lawyer myself, but I certainly sympathise with all who are concerned in this matter if the facts which they relate are true, and if the state of affairs that exists is as bad as they represent it to be. If what I have been told is true, then the complaints made constitute a very serious indictment against the Minister for leaving things in such a state of confusion for such a long period of time.

When the Board of Works Estimate was under consideration a few days ago, I raised a question then as to the necessity for having a commercial court and also a children's court apart from the police courts. The answer I received from the Parliamentary Secretary on that occasion was that while he was responsible for the structural arrangements of these buildings, the question I raised did not come within his jurisdiction. I hope I will not get a similar answer to-day from the Minister for Justice—namely, that while he is responsible for the staffing of these courts, that he is not responsible for the actual structures themselves. The difficulty I refer to is this:—Under our new regime a considerable number of commercial cases are now tried in the police courts. It is true that a separate portion of the day, if not the whole day, is set apart for the hearing of these cases, but then while these cases are being tried, the other courts there are also functioning, and we have all the objectionable features which surround the police courts in existence. The objection made by commercial people is as to the undesirability of bringing clerks, lady typists and others concerned in these commercial cases into association with these police court surroundings. This is a matter that we have raised on a number of occasions, and there seems to be a difficulty in getting the Minister to meet our point of view. Only a short time ago I heard of a case in which people engaged in commercial pursuits on the other side were brought over here to give evidence. When they found that they had to go into the surroundings of the police courts to prove their claims, they protested very strongly indeed. That is not the place for commercial cases. It should not need any argument. It is a matter that should have been considered and dealt with before this.

I also urge a similar plea on behalf of the Children's Court. This point must not be confounded with what we call the Street Trading Court. In a number of cases children are dealt with in the police court, and must be dealt with in the police court. It is unnecessary to refer to the details of those cases. There are often cases for school attendance, and matters of that sort, that have to be dealt with in the ordinary police court under our regime. It is obviously unwise for young children, accompanied in many cases by their mothers and other members of the family—because there would be nobody left at home to mind the other members of the family—to be near those courts. The unfortunate mother, in bringing one child, has to take the others with her. The whole family are thus brought into the regrettable surroundings of a police court. It should not be necessary to stress that point with the Minister. The whole thing is exceedingly undesirable.

The Minister told us on a previous occasion, when I raised this question, that a certain day or a certain portion of the day had been set aside in the courts for those particular cases. The Minister, I am sure, realises the circumstances that exist in these police courts. You have two courts functioning, one beside the other; they are almost approached by the same staircase. People who frequent the court gather in the common courtyard in front of the two buildings. To say that by closing that particular court for a portion of the day, or even for the whole day, you will be separating the children from the people who go there, and detach them from the customary surroundings of a police court, is to say something that does not really represent the facts. I would impress on the Minister that those two matters are urgent matters, and they ought to be dealt with. I hope that when this Estimate comes up again for consideration, we will not have the same complaints to make as on this and previous occasions.

Deputy McGoldrick dealt with the question of the Rules of Court not being yet available for the Dáil. That is because the three Committees working on these Rules have not yet submitted any draft to me. The Committees are composed of members of the legal professions, men who may be supposed fully to appreciate such inconvenience as arises from the fact that the new Rules are not yet in existence and operative. Replying to some other Deputy, I pointed out that there is this much justification for the delay: the work of the Rule-making Committees is very detailed and technical. The Rule-making Committee of the High Court and the Circuit Court is composed of judges who have their week's work to do and who can only sit for a couple of hours each Saturday. The delay is understandable in the circumstances. I think there will not be much further delay before these Rules are available. I understand that I am likely to have them inside the next week or two.

When speaking here we should use words that have some relation to their meaning and we should use words with some real relation to the facts we really profess to be talking about. Deputy McGoldrick says that the administration of law is in a state of chaos; that court staffs are in a state of chaos and they do not know where they stand. As far as the staff of the High Court is concerned, I would be glad to believe that anything so lively as a state of chaos exists; but it does not. The fact is, and Deputy McGoldrick himself knows it, that the administration of law in the country is proceeding more smoothly and more efficiently than at any time for many and many a long year. Any honest solicitor in the country could assure him of that. There is no state of chaos at all. The courts are at present carrying on under the old rules, and they will so carry on until such time as the new rules have been considered, approved, and put into operation. There is a certain inconvenience, but it is not an inconvenience that justifies any Deputy in getting up and talking glibly about a state of chaos in the administration of the law, and a state of chaos amongst court staffs. There is nothing so lively as a state of chaos existing amongst the staff of the High Court.

I did not refer to the High Court.

What court did the Deputy refer to? We may as well know where the chaos is.

Between the Circuit Courts and the District Courts. I was only dealing with the matter purely from the point of view of the representations a solicitor made to me. I do not myself profess to know anything about it. I merely said, in my own way, what he has represented to me.

It is not sufficient for the Deputy to say that he knows nothing about law. He ought to know something about fact, and he should endeavour to know a little about facts before getting up to impart his information to the Dáil. He spoke of chaos amongst court staffs, and I want to know where the chaos is, and in the staffs of what courts.

According to my information, the chaos is between the Circuit Courts and the District Courts in the question of appeals. They do not know under what form they are to proceed. They are proceeding on the old form, according to my information, and they are trying to accommodate themselves to the new situation. In this way they have a certain amount of chaos, if you can call it chaos. They alleged to me, in any case, that this is a matter they cannot tolerate and they cannot get on with.

As regards these people who allege a state of chaos, would the Deputy put them in touch with my Department? Possibly we would be able to give them a little more information on the matter than the Deputy seems to have. Deputy Good talked of accommodation for courts here in the city. The present system is not, of course, ideal, but I would put it to him that everything that seems reasonably practicable has been done. We have asked the Board of Works to provide a separate Civil Court for the District Court, when the Four Courts are being rebuilt. Any suggestion calculated in any way to improve or mitigate the existing situation will be considered very carefully. Personally, I do not see what more can be done to meet the position than has been done up to the present.

Would it not be possible to get a separate building away from the police courts, which would discharge the double purpose of a commercial and a children's court? I know it is not necessary to stress that on the Minister; he is quite aware of all the facts just as well as we are. But these things are constantly coming before us, and I think we are all agreed, including the Minister, that it is highly desirable at the earliest possible moment to do something in this direction. It occurs to me a building might be allocated for the two purposes, a building separate and distinct from the police courts.

I will investigate the possibility of that. In the last resort I expect it will come down to a question of expense, and whether or not the expense will be justified. Most things do finish that way. There would not be any other factor than that of expense. As far as the District Justice is concerned, it would be equally convenient to him. It would all come down to a question of cost and whether the cost would be justified. I will look into the position and consider the representations that the Deputy has made to-day. We will see whether anything can be done.

Does not the Minister get a very considerable revenue out of civil cases?

I suppose the Minister for Finance would say that that is all that is wanted.

Vote put and agreed to.

I move to report progress.

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