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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 8

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £8,846 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Roinn Uachtarán na hArd-Chomhairle.

That a sum not exceeding £8,846 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the President of the Executive Council.

The amount of the Vote for this Department is less by £1,178 than the figure of £15,024 voted for the year 1925-26. Sub-head A, covering salaries, wages and allowances, totals £12,446, which is £478 less than the Vote for last year. The reduction is due to the omission of the allowance of £150 for an additional A.D.C. This office was discontinued towards the end of last year. It is also due to the fact that the provision for two chauffeurs no longer appears on this Vote—they are supplied now by the Defence Forces and their pay is borne on the Army Vote—and to the fact that the charge for messengers and cleaners has been reduced by £520, due for the most part to the dissolution of the protective force employed at Government Buildings.

As against these reductions there are increases on account of ordinary annual increments which are offset by a reduction in bonus due to the fall of the cost-of-living figure. There is included a figure of £650 for additional temporary assistance. At the time when the Estimate was being prepared it was believed that certain additional work would arise in the Department during the year which would necessitate a temporary increase in the staff. It now appears probable that the volume of this work will not be so great as had been contemplated and it is hoped that it will be possible to effect a considerable saving under that head. Another saving on this Vote which could not be foreseen when the Estimates were being prepared is the appointment of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Executive Council to a similar post in the Department of Finance. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Executive Council, in addition to duties arising directly out of the work of that office has been engaged on a large number of Committees and Commissions. He has been a member of the Army Pay Commission, of various committees dealing with pensions questions, and for the past six or seven months has had to devote a very large proportion of his time to the Military Service Pensions Board. He will continue to act on that Board until it has concluded its labours. There is a reduction under Sub-head B of £250 on the previous year's figures. The expenditure up to 31st March was, approximately, £300, and on this basis the provision of £500 might appear to be excessive. It should be remembered, however, that this sub-head bears the cost of the travelling expenses and subsistence allowances of any Minister or Parliamentary Secretary when he travels on the general business of the State rather than on the business of his own particular Department and that a certain amount of expenditure is likely to be incurred in connection with the conference due to take place under Article 6 of the Treaty and the Annex thereto. The charges under this head often arise from contingencies which it is impossible to foresee, and hence it is not possible to estimate with the same degree of accuracy as in the case of other sub-heads.

Incidental expenses shows a reduction of £100. As regards telegrams and telephones, from figures supplied by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs it was ascertained that the sum to be provided for the portion falling to be borne by this Vote of the total charge of telephone services in the Government Buildings was £210. The expenditure on telegrams to 30th November was £20 12s. 2d., and to March 31st approximately £40. Forty pounds is, accordingly, being provided for the current year. As regards the motor-car allowance, I mentioned last year that it was proposed to have that a separate item. In the Estimate which was submitted to the Finance Department last year it was estimated that something like 25,000 miles would be covered during the period. As far as I can judge from the figures, it is calculated that four-fifths was either on State work, that is, on journeys of State, or work for distinguished visitors who would honour us with their presence here, and I have the use of the car. It was calculated that allowing for depreciation a sum of something like £300, that the cost to myself would be about £150 in the year, leaving £500. The accounts for the full year have not yet been sent in, but as far as I can judge they were approximately correct. The only reference I have to make to it is on the basis that the depreciation was for £300, and the depreciation in the coming year would not be so great. From an examination of the usual figures in connection with depreciation, in the case of an ordinary car covering 7,000 miles or probably 10,000 a year the depreciation in the first year is 30 per cent. That is, the car would be worth 70 per cent. of its cost at the end of the year, but in the case of a car covering 25,000 miles, the depreciation would be much more than 30 per cent. I think it was calculated at 40, 42 or 43 per cent., which was how the £300 was arrived at. References have been made to this car, that it did no other than private work which the ordinary person would have engaged in. That is not the case. In that connection I should say that in the year 1924 there was a period of something like two or three months in which I did not see the car once, as it was engaged on other work during that period. I think that completes the various items.

There is a matter that I want to raise as a preliminary. On the Vote for the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, certain questions arose touching relations between the Saorstát and the Government of Northern Ireland, and the President volunteered the statement that if any matter of that nature was to be discussed it would be better to discuss it on the Vote for the Executive Council. I, therefore, am raising the question whether any representations are being made or have been made regarding the espionage system. the shadowing of citizens of the Saorstát when they pay visits to Northern Ireland. I have particularly in mind the case of a one-time colleague in this House who has been subjected to a kind of shadowing that is certainly, to say the least of it, very annoying, and not at all suggestive of the good relations which it had been hoped had arisen. I do not want to go into details, but I make the assertion as far as one can take a detailed story of one who can be trusted, that the shadowing by police of public men going from the Saorstát to their friends and relatives in the North, is steady and constant, and has the effect of perpetuating, or, shall I say, rather prolonging, the ill-will that has been complained of. There can be no good reason whatever for the system of shadowing that has been followed, and it seems to me desirable that some public expression of opinion in this House should be made in this regard. I think I need say no more on that subject.

I had not any notice of that particular question, and this is the first time I heard of it. I do not know that I could be called upon to express any opinion on it. I do not know that anything I would say on the matter would conduce towards more friendly relations. I am not a judge of what the Northern Government ought to do in these matters. The Northern Government has got its own business to attend to, and I am satisfied, from the experience that we had in last December and from at least one incident since that, that there is no desire on the part of the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland to do anything which would tend towards perpetuating bad feeling, and that he was equally anxious with us for much more cordial and friendly relations.

I have down a motion to reduce sub-head A by £1,000. The Minister has more or less conceded the point. The object of the reduction is to deprive the Ministry of the power to spend £1,000 on a Parliamentary Secretary to the President, in addition to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Executive Council. I rather gathered from the President's statement that he does not intend to have the two posts filled. If that is the case, there is no need for any further discussion, and we will be able to agree, no doubt, to the reduction. If I am wrong in that assumption, then I want to make the case that there is no necessity for voting a sum of £1,000 for a Parliamentary Secretary to the President, in addition to £1,200 for a Parliamentary Secretary to the Executive Council. I do not think the circumstances justify this Vote. We have one Parliamentary Secretary provided for, and I think that is sufficient. I move, therefore, the reduction of this sub-head by £1,000.

As I said, it is not intended at present to fill this office. To put it even more strongly, there is no intention in anybody's mind to fill this office. But I do not think that it is accordingly advisable to exclude this amount from the Estimate. These Estimates were framed in January. They were then corrected. It might happen during the year that it would be necessary to fill this office. That might happen through circumstances over which we would have no control. Apart from that, I do not think it at all likely that the post will be filled during the year. I think it is most unlikely. I do think that it would be inadvisable to reduce the Estimate by £1,000, simply because the office is not now existent. It would mean that in respect of practically every volume of Estimates that has been issued to the public, a correction should be made, for no other purpose than simply to recite the historical fact that this office is not now filled and that there is no intention to fill it.

I am astonished at the financial doctrine preached by the President, who has had experience as Minister for Finance. The Estimate has been printed and a motion has been put to the Dáil asking for the grant of a certain sum of money, which includes £1,000 for a particular office. It is then stated that the Estimate has been revised, that this officer is not to be appointed. But still we are asked to make a grant for his salary. Lest the public who buy copies of the Estimates might be disconcerted to find that there had been any change in the Estimate, it is thought undesirable to make any change in the Vote.

The President should realise that, if we grant this sum, it will be within the power of his Department, without any question raised, to spend that £1,000 on other offices, a saving on one sub-head being available to meet an excess upon another.

If the Dáil grant this sum, it will be an indication that the Dáil is satisfied to pay this sum. The President says that it is not intended to fill the post but that circumstances may arise in the future which would warrant the filling of the post. That exactly raises the question that we have discussed, time after time, about the inadvisability of over-estimating and seeking more than is required to meet possible contingencies. It is very much better financial policy to require the Executive Council to come again for a supplementary vote for services that are not foreseen than to make a demand at the beginning of the year for a sum to meet possibilities. In this case it is made clear to us that there is no need for the money. The President says "You must vote the money, even though we do not need it." I say that is very unsatisfactory financial policy and I will certainly press my amendment, so as to test the view of the House as to whether they are willing to vote sums of money which, we are told, are not required and will not be required.

I think the President would be well advised to take the view that Deputy Johnson has suggested. If there is one estimate more than another in which an amendment of this description is justified it is this Estimate. We have here a Parliamentary Secretary to the Executive Council at £1,200 a year, a Parliamentary Secretary to the President at £1,000 a year, a Secretary to the Executive Council at £1,200 a year and an Assistant Secretary at £794. I think there is no justification whatsoever for the continuance of four secretaries. An opportunity has been given the Executive Council to dispense with one of these secretaries without interference with any particular person and I do not see why this money should be provided for a position that the Executive Council might take the notion to fill within the next month or two months or ten months. I do not see the usefulness of this procedure. The President would, I think, be well advised to take the line Deputy Johnson has suggested. If not, I hope Deputy Johnson will put his amendment to a division. If not. I will certainly put it to a division, in order to find if the House has any sense of proportion and if Deputies will take the right line and go into the right Lobby.

This amendment puts one rather in a quandary. The position is that, when the Estimates were prepared, they provided for the inclusion of a Parliamentary Secretary to the President. At that time, the Parliamentary Secretary was operating. The President assures us that there is no intention at present, and as far as he knows that there will be no intention in the future, of filling that position. Deputy Johnson puts down an amendment to reduce the Vote by £1,000, that being the amount down for this position which the President says there is no intention to fill. I thoroughly agree with what Deputy Johnson says that the fault we have found in the past, with the Estimates, at the Committee of Public Accounts, has been estimation in excess of requirements. The excuse for that in the past was that we were in a transition stage and that things had not settled down into a condition that would make accurate estimating possible. If the President is not prepared to accept Deputy Johnson's motion, it seems to me that a division will place Deputies in an awkward position. To vote in favour of a reduction of the Estimate would seem to reflect on the reliability that we place on the President's word when he says that there is no intention of filling the position. Fully recognising that the President's statement is one which the Dáil ought to accept, if Deputy Johnson's motion is not accepted by the President, my position is that I would not be prepared to vote for Deputy Johnson's motion, because it would seem to imply a doubt as to the President's statement. That is a thing I would not be prepared to do. On the other hand, I fully appreciate Deputy Johnson's motives. His intention in putting down this motion, I presume, was that the position ought not be filled and about that there is no disagreement, apparently, at the present time.

I should like to point out that it would be an impossible task for this Committee to revise Estimates and bring them up to date in every respect. Deputy Johnson's motion simply is that we should start in and revise this Estimate now—some five or six months after its preparation—and bring it up to date. There is hardly an Estimate that has been passed that would be in its present form if it were prepared only last week. The preparation of our Estimates begins in December. The different Departments are working on them through Novermber and December. The Estimates are supposed to reach the Department of Finance on 1st January. We have not been able to get the machinery working so satisfactorily as to succeed in getting that done. The Estimates reach the Department of Finance some time in January. They are criticised there and, perhaps, sent back to the Departments for amendment. Discussions continue on through January and February, and in March the Estimates are printed. Changes occur in every Department before the Estimates actually come before the Dáil. If the idea is that the dropping out of an official or the death or resignation of an official is to be followed up by an alteration in the Estimates, then we will have an impossible task. The consideration of Estimates is the consideration of policy.

A very detailed consideration of the Estimates is not possible for the Dáil. It is really a consideration of policy. There is a great difference between accepting Estimates for the Executive Council which had no provision for a second Parliamentary Secretary and striking out any such provision. If there were no provision for a second Parliamentary Secretary and if need were found for him, it would not be possible, but, if there were any surplus at all, it would be possible to make an appointment. Even if there were no surplus, it would be possible to make the appointment and later come for a Supplementary Vote, but in the amendment of Deputy Johnson the provision is struck out, and in that case there would be a very different position, and I do not think it would be possible to proceed with the appointment. The Executive Council would be absolutely precluded from making an appointment unless the Dáil were invited to reverse its decision. As the President said, there is no intention of filling the post, but a possibility might occur which would render it necessary to fill it.

That is exactly the point.

A Minister, for instance, might be ill. There have been cases of illness of Ministers in which the President, in addition to his own duties, had to discharge the duties of two Ministers. In such circumstances the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary might become absolutely essential. The Executive Council should not be put in a worse position in regard to the matter, as they would be by this amendment, than if the Estimate had come up without provision for a second Parliamentary Secretary. I could not regard the position as being different because the position is not filled at the moment. We cannot consider the Estimates reasonably or usefully on the basis that it is the business of the Dáil to bring them up to date. That process cannot be done. I could not consider an amendment to strike out this sum as being any different from a vote of censure on the Executive Council.

I do not think that the Minister has made a case against the amendment, and I think the President would be well advised to accept it. I cannot understand Deputy Hewat's complicated reasoning. It is because of the fact that I am convinced that the President's undertaking will be carried out that I think this amendment should be passed. It is no reflection on the veracity of the President that this amendment should be pressed. On the contrary, it is because of the undertaking of the President, that he does not intend to fill the post, that the amendment should be pressed and that we should not vote the money. The Minister for Finance made the point that we cannot expect the Dáil to bring the Estimates up to date. This, however, is an exceptional case. Already the Executive Council has one Parliamentary Secretary. Suppose a situation arose when a Minister were ill and the President had to take over his duties; where would he get a Parliamentary Secretary for that Department, if, say, the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Finance were ill, which I hope will not be the case? It is not necessary to have two Parliamentary Secretaries, and, because of the fact that this post is not going to be filled, I think that the Dáil in the interests of proper estimating should not vote this money.

The statement of the President on the one hand and that of the Minister for Finance on the other, seem to me to make it essential that this amendment should be pressed. The Minister has spoken about it not being possible to bring the Estimates up to date. Nobody expects the Estimates to be altered; nobody expects the type in this book to be altered. The Estimates are complied for the information of the Dáil and we are all aware that they are prepared months before they are discussed. The authority for spending the money is not in this book but in the final Vote of the Appropriation Account, and the resolution here, instead of being for £13,846, less whatever sum has already been voted, would be £12,846, if this amendment were accepted. That would be the only effect. The question of the alteration of the Estimates does not come into the discussion.

Deputy Johnson could discuss the particular way in which they could be reduced.

My motion is to reduce the total sum in respect of the sub-head. The Minister for Finance has made the position clear. He wants, at this stage and in the Appropriation Account, to prepare for the possibility that, at some later stage in the year, the Ministry may think it desirable to appoint a Parliamentary Secretary. That is exactly what we want to preclude. We want to make it clear that it is not the view of the Dáil that there is any necessity for the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary. If new circumstances arise and if the Ministry think it desirable to appoint a Parliamentary Secretary and to pay him a salary, they can come to the Dáil for consent and approval. Surely it is not the policy of the Ministry to say that certain posts may require to be filled within the next six or twelve months, and also, to say, "They may not be filled, but they may so let us prepare for that now." That is the policy enunciated by the Minister for Finance.

The post was filled when the Estimate was prepared.

Yes, and a new policy has now been decided upon by the Executive Council, so that the obvious thing to do is to reduce the sum that was originally thought to be required but is now known not to be required. Surely, that is the obvious consequence of a change of policy. The Minister's suggestion, however, is that, notwithstanding the change of policy, we should go on with the original Estimate. I think that the Minister should try to apply his reasoning to the Army Vote, for instance, or to some other big department. If the Minister for Defence contemplated in January having an Army of 20,000 men and prepared his Estimates accordingly, but, if new circumstances arose before the Estimates were discussed in May or June, he decided to have an Army only of 10,000 men, he could say that he would, however, require a Vote for 20,000 men though he did not intend to spend it. That is a parallel case, on a larger scale to this. The Dáil is being asked to express the view that a change of policy has taken place requiring a less sum of money and that only a less sum shall be voted.

I support the views which have been expressed on this matter. We have heard the statement of the President and that of the Minister for Finance that there is no intention to spend the money and that there is no intention to fill the post. In no contentious spirit at all I think the Dáil has expressed the view that there are strong grounds why the President should go all the way and state definitely in the Appropriations Account that there will be a reduction in the Estimates which will be in keeping with the policy of the Executive Council. I think that the President and the Executive Council at this stage know quite well what the possibilities are with regard to the work that has to be done during the remainder of the financial year, and they can foresee what the possibilities are for an increase of work that would demand the filling of this post. I think that the President should recognise that, if there is such a demand and if there is much extra labour thrown on the Executive Council owing to unforeseen causes, he can come here and put up a case that the conditions have altered, that he has had reason to change his view, and he can ask the sanction of the House for a salary for a Parliamentary Secretary.

I think that the President, in accordance with his own statement that he is going to make the reduction, should accept the amendment and have the reduction appear in the Appropriations Account. I think that is the feeling of the House on the matter.

The President says that there is no intention to fill the office, but the Minister for Finance says that the necessity for filling it might arise at any time, and that they want to have the money there to fill it. To my mind they are thinking with two different views. There should be a definite guarantee that this post will not be filled.

I did not give that.

Then we have no guarantee.

You have a good faith guarantee and no more.

That is not very definite.

A new Ministry might alter it altogether.

I do not see that there is any obstacle to acceding to this amendment, and I think the obstacle that Deputy Hewat seems to see is imaginary. I do not see why the Executive Council should not take the view that is put forward, and as I say, it would be a guarantee to the House and to the public that the Executive Council mean to do the right thing and mean to get rid of this unnecessary office.

Deputy Johnson, if my recollection is correct, practically repeated what he said the first time, with this difference, that he did not again say that it would be possible for us to spend more money on the other heads and use this money for the purpose. That is not the intention.

I never suggested that there is any such intention. I am suggesting that we should not give the power.

I know; but the passing of this Vote does not give the power. It is a power that can only be taken if the Dáil were in possession of the information that we were going to do it. It is not in possession of any such information. The Deputy, of course, is astonished. We have not, I think, on any occasion ever gone in the direction of misleading the House in connection with any of these matters. The question is really one of misleading the House in connection with a matter of this kind, or a matter of any kind. If this amendment were passed, it certainly would leave the House in no position better than that in which it is now under the guarantee that we have given that we have no intention of filling this office. I am not guaranteeing that we will not; circumstances might arise in which it would be necessary to appoint a Parliamentary Secretary, but that is a circumstance which we do not anticipate. The question, then, that remains for decision is whether or not the passing of this motion will save £1,000. It will not. It will not save what we do not intend to spend. The passing of this motion would mean the printing of another sheet; it would mean more expense, and there would be no greater guarantee, because if a Parliamentary Secretary were required the Contingency Vote would be required to meet the expenditure.

What does the President mean by the printing of another sheet?

The printing of another sheet in connection with this Estimate. The Estimate would be withdrawn and another issued at more expense, in the interests of economy.

The President seems to be trying to prove that Parliamentary control of expenditure is a farce, and nothing else. If this unanticipated situation arises, it is the duty of the President to come for a Supplementary Estimate and justify the expenditure. If we are to take it that it is beyond the power of the Dáil to alter the Estimates by any single figure because it would involve printing another sheet, then we have no business to be here at all. Let us set up the Executive Council on seven thrones and let them rule us, and let us not pretend that we are having any Parliamentary control at all. This money is not needed at present. That has been admitted. It is not going to be spent. That is admitted. Then let us realise that, and let the President accept this amendment. If he does not, if he simply insists on taking the power to have a Parliamentary Secretary, without consulting anybody, we have no business to be here at all. I am not going to accept the President's doctrine that he might appoint officials and pay them out of the Contingency Fund. I think that that would be absolutely wrong. The Contingency Fund is not intended for this purpose. I would suggest that now that it is admitted that the office is not needed the President should accept the amendment.

What I meant was that the Estimate of itself should be sufficient without us coming to the Dáil. I am only anticipating the possibility of an adjournment for four months, and then coming in with a proposal. A case would lie for the motion if the sum were £100,000 or £50,000, and there would be some sense in it. Why not go a step further and say, in respect of two charwomen, that if only one were employed you would reduce the vote by £20?

That is ridiculous.

Of course it is.

There is one matter that the President has mentioned that I would like to elaborate, that is, that if the motion were not passed and this sum were voted, it could be spent under other heads without a word being said about it. Deputy Johnson knows that that is not entirely so; there would be a good deal said about it at the Public Accounts Committee, of which he is chairman, and it would be a pity for it to go to the public that a sum of this kind included in the Estimate could be spent under other heads. I mention that because I would not like it to pass without reference, lest the public would be under a misapprehension with regard to it.

There is no question that the virement, as it is technically called, might come under the notice of the Public Accounts Committee in two years' time, but it would not come under the notice of the Dáil this year.

But it would come back to the Dáil from the Public Accounts Committee.

We can discuss that matter another time.

The President's statement that to be logical one should go into the case, let us say, of two cleaners, or two charwomen, and that if one had died or found other employment the Estimate should be changed, was greeted with the cry that that was ridiculous. I want to put it to Deputies that it is certainly much less ridiculous than Deputy Johnson's statement that if the Minister for Defence in January contemplated an Army of 20,000, changed his mind in May and decided on 10,000, the Estimate should remain as originally made out for the larger Army. Objection is taken to the statement that, to be logical, when there are two charwomen provided for and one finds other employment, or let us go higher up the scale of employment and let us say that two clerical officers, or two higher executive officers are provided for, that one dies or resigns, and the Estimate provides for two, the statement being made in the Dáil that one has gone out of the employment and that it is hoped it will not be necessary to fill the position, the Estimate should be changed. That is the real parallel, and not a 20,000 Army or a 10,000 Army.

Motion put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 36.

  • Pádraig Baxter.
  • John J. Cole.
  • John Conlan.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
  • William Norton.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Tadhg O Donnabháin.
  • Eamon O Dubhghaill.
  • Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
  • Seán O Duinnín.
  • Donnchadh O Guaire.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).

Níl

  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • James Dwyer.
  • Michael Egan.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Donnchadh Mac Con Uladh.
  • Liam Mac Cosgair.
  • Seán Mac Curtain.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Michael K. Noonan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • Máirtín O Conalláin.
  • Séamus O Dóláin.
  • Peadar O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
  • Máirtín O Rodaigh.
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Liam Thrift.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Morrissey and Corish. Níl: Deputies Dolan and Tierney. Motion declared lost.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress Reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 12 o'clock on Friday, June 11th.
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