"We make an offer for the Post Office, leaving us free to charge what we wish for that public service and to cut off the service wherever we desire. We will not continue to send letters for twopence into the hillsides. We will restrict our activities to the city where we can make a profit and pay off losses very easily." I wonder whether in the case of such an institution as the Post Office or the telephones, the telephones which promise to be profitable, if some banking institution were to come along and make an offer for the purchase of this State institution what would be thought and what would be said of the private company? I do not know what would be said, but I know what would be thought. It is difficult for me to believe that nothing had preceded the proposal to buy out the State Bank by the Bank of Ireland. I read occasionally the reports of statements of chairmen of banking companies when they are making their annual statements and for a long time I have heard of items of 15, 18 and 20 per cent., dividend, year after year. Whatever may be the state of the country the banks are always paying. One of these banks, the most prosperous probably, is offering to buy out the State. That may be a little exaggeration; perhaps they have bought out the State. They have gone a long way at any rate to buy out the State. They are able, one bank with another, to control the State by threats of one sort or another. That, of course, is not peculiar to the Free State.
It is, I think, a fairly sound statement to make that the banks do control the public activities of most of the countries in the world to-day. They are in a position to control them. They will only act perhaps when necessity— what they consider necessity—compels but they are in a position to control State action. I think very often they exercise their power of such control passively if not actively, and one means of having in reserve a check upon that control may lie in the existence of an institution of which the National Land Bank might well have been the nucleus. But this private company comes along and offers to buy out the State interest. I asked this afternoon whether there was any guarantee against the Bank of Ireland, which is buying out the State interest, being itself bought out by, say, the Bank of England. I do not know whether the Minister can give us any guarantee of that kind or whether he has any assurance of that sort, but I should be surprised if within the next two years the banking businesses of this country do not follow the tendency in Great Britain and other countries to amalgamate. There will happen with the existing banks here unless some kind of check is placed upon them, what has happened to some of the Northern banks that have become associated with and bound up with some of the English banks.
It may be said that that is not going to make very much difference; that at present they are practically bound to the policy which may be initiated by the English banks. If you take that view, then you may, of course, as well bow down and worship the banking institutions as the real governors of this island. It may be so, but at least let us not formally acknowledge by the acceptance of this proposition that a private bank can come along, buy out the State, and initiate such a proposal. I think it is well worth while trying to remind ourselves of the history of this National Land Bank and to consider the sudden turn of events that seems to have developed. Deputy Baxter has reminded us that this institution was founded in times of revolution. The Minister referred to it this afternoon. He said that it was founded with certain definite intentions, which were enlarged after a year or two. It has not grown to the extent that some of us would have liked, but I venture to say that the responsibility for that lies to a great extent with the Government.
The House at various times has been asked to agree to Bills and motions of one kind or another, with the object of regularising the work of the National Land Bank in every way and bringing it quite definitely into the region of a State-owned institution. We were informed that the Minister himself was on the board of directors, and that a nominee of his was also on the board. They have been given certain rights and, perhaps, privileges by the State to do certain duties which could not be, and were not, done by the other banks. I wonder whether if there had been a real desire on the part of the Ministry to give this institution a chance to develop and expand, and to some extent to supplant private banking institutions, it would not have been much more prosperous and very much more effectual from the point of view of assisting industry and commerce. Had there been a clear indication that this was a national institution backed and secured by the State, I think you could have had a very much greater support from private individuals. Certainly the bank's own business might have been much more prosperous if the State had given it more of its business. In view of the history of the bank and its association with the Government, it is reasonably claimed by Deputy Heffernan that the break should not come in this fashion, and should not have been announced to the Dáil in this manner. We were told some time ago that the Banking Commission was to be set up. We were informed later of the terms of reference and the composition of the Commission. I have not the terms of reference by me, but I imagine that incidental, at least, to the inquiry of the Banking Commission would be the relations of a national bank to the State, and, perhaps, even the relations of the National Land Bank to the State. That being the case, ought we not to have the inquiry completed before we decided to cut adrift this national banking institution from the control of the State?
It seems to me the decision that has been taken and announced so suddenly to the Dáil, presumably without any real opportunity to reconsider the matter, is dealing with the report of the Banking Commission piecemeal and without giving the Dáil any inkling of what is the general comprehensive policy of this Banking Commission. Is the Government entering upon a considered policy regarding banking credit, note issue, gold reserves, and the like? Has it yet formed any clear idea as to what its policy is to be in these matters, or is this only the beginning, taking the first step without knowing where the rest of the steps will lead? Has it any direction in its mind in regard to a policy on banking matters? One would have thought, at any rate, that we would have waited until the Banking Commission had reported and until we knew what the general line of policy would be, and that the Dáil would be informed of that before the first step was taken. I do not know whether as part of the agreement there is any guarantee to other people besides the employees. I wonder is there any guarantee that the depositors or the borrowers are going to be treated as well—perhaps I should ask are they going to be treated as generously as the employees? Are the depositors going to be dealt with by the new bank at least as satisfactorily as they had been dealt with by the National Land Bank? There is no guarantee of that. I suppose, therefore, the depositors will have the freedom of going into one of the other banks and dealing with another partner in the general association of banks. There was a chance that the National Land Bank would have been a check upon the rather rapacious activities of the banks.
This particular action seems to be a definite break from the policy that was outlined in the early stages of the National Land Bank and of the Governmental movement that led to the establishment of the bank, that is to say, we are abandoning, for all time, judging by this gesture, any thought that the State is to control banks and banking policy, or to direct or check banking policy. The banks henceforth are to be left to work their will on industry and agriculture. If it is announced that there is to be no check on the free play of the banks then we shall know where we are. This certainly seems to be the beginning of a policy of that kind. I think we ought to know from the Minister whether the Government has come to any decision regarding the privileges that banks at present enjoy—these private banks, and particularly the Bank of Ireland. Is there anything else besides handing over these Government rights in the National Land Bank being agreed upon, or rather are we to take it that this is merely an isolated act having no reference whatever to State policy regarding banks, credit, reserves, note issue and the like? It would have been much more decent if instead of coming to the Dáil on the last day but one of our meetings and announcing this very important departure from the policy that had been hitherto enunciated, the Minister would have waited until the Report of the Banking Commission had been made public. We would then have an opportunity to discuss the policy as a whole and not piecemeal. I hope the Deputies will press this motion to a division, and that we shall have the opportunity of registering our protest against this method of carrying on State work.