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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1928

Vol. 27 No. 1

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS (RESUMED).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £221,550 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig na gCoimisinéirí Ioncuim, maraon le Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riara na hoifige sin.
That a sum not exceeding £221,550 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, including certain other Services administered by that Office. — (Minister for Finance.)

When speaking on this Vote on Friday last I dealt with the distinction which seemed to be made by the Revenue Commissioners between the income tax payers of small amounts and of large amounts in respect of dividends. There is another matter to which I hope the Minister will devote his attention in connection with this Department, and that is the apparent discrepancy between the total assessment for the income tax and the amount of income tax collected. The assessments for the years 1923-24 and for 1926-27 amounted to something like £34,500,000. According to replies which he gave in this House, the income tax collected has fallen short of that amount by something like £10,000,000. We are anxious to know whether the Minister can give a satisfactory explanation for that deficiency. Some of it undoubtedly may be due to the fact that large amounts have been written off. I believe there is a prevalent opinion that a considerable proportion of that sum is represented by income tax assessed upon the larger incomes, and which for one reason or another the Revenue Commissioners have not been able to collect.

When land annuitants default in payment of the land annuities their names are given to the public. Some time ago I put down a question asking the Minister if he could disclose to the House the names of those people or firms who were defaulters for the largest amounts and the Minister said it was not within his power to give such information. Well, I think it is only fair if land annuitants are to be held up, as they are more or less, to public odium when they default by having their names published, that income tax payers, particularly those who have been assessed for a large amount and from whom large amounts are properly collectable, ought similarly to have their names disclosed to the public, because the fact that they do default in that way imposes an additional burden on the whole community. If arrears are allowed to stand out from year to year, arrears by people who can perfectly well pay them, then there is only one of two things going to happen. Either the Minister has to increase his taxation, or he has to reduce his expenditure, and invariably the experience in this House has been that when the Minister has to reduce expenditure the services which he curtails are those which the community can least afford to be without. For that reason I think every possible means ought to be used to compel income tax defaulters to pay who can.

There are limits to the pressure which can be exerted beneficially. I do not think it would be for the benefit of the State if firms which now find themselves in difficulties were compelled to pay income tax and go out of business, but there are certainly a considerable number of people who could pay income tax with a trifle of inconvenience, but who somehow or other manage to escape. The Minister I think on one occasion disclosed the reason. He said Deputies and others interest themselves on behalf of their friends. That, of course, is very wrong on the part of Deputies, but I do not think it is any less wrong for the Minister to yield to such representations.

The question of income tax I think should be overhauled from the point of view of returns and of the machinery for collection. I should like if the Minister would disclose to the House the amount of tax collected under Schedules A. and B. I believe that the amount might be called large, but I think the net proceeds to the State is very much less than the amount collected; that, as a matter of fact, large sums are collected under these heads, because the tax must be paid in respect of all property, but absentees can and do claim allowances if their income does not reach the required figure and repayment is claimed and has to be made. The question arises under this head whether there is really a revenue to the State derived from income tax assessments under Schedules A and B. It seems to me that is a position that warrants very close investigation because what we are faced with is this: First of all, we have one staff to assess tax in respect of property on which the annual income may be very large; we have another staff to collect the tax in respect of that property, and we have a third staff, I think, to refund to people who make claims for repayment. Surely, if the net proceeds to the State upon the tax collected in this way is not a significant figure it might be advisable to consider even its abolition. There is one other point that I would like the Minister to give some information upon; that is the practice which has been adopted to recover arrears of income tax under Schedules A and B. I believe that up to recently, at any rate, the practice was either to attempt to recover those arrears by distraining or by threatening to distrain. I understand the matter is under appeal with the Revenue Commissioners. I think it has since been held that we are not entitled to proceed under that. If that is so, I think, as I said before, we are entitled to use every possible and legitimate means we can to collect this tax. If at the same time the Commissioners exceed their legal powers and harass the citizens in this present distasteful and inhuman way, the Minister ought to put a curb upon such unjustifiable proceedings.

Some few months ago I put a question to the Minister relative to income tax deducted from holders of Guinness's shares in this country prior to the double income tax arrangements. If I recollect aright, the Minister informed us that these people from whom the tax was deducted had a moral claim to the refund of a portion of it. That is to say those people are entitled to a refund but had no legal claim. The present, I think, is an appropriate time to raise the question again and to ask if any legal means can be provided by which those people would get a refund of this tax. Many of them, in fact the great majority of them, are depending to a great extent upon their investments in Guinness. I know a great many of such people myself and it is a hardship that they should be deprived of this money to which they are morally entitled. Surely some means should be found for restoring to them what is morally due to them. It is well that this matter should be gone into and the money restored to these people. I understand from those who have made an application for a refund that neither side will admit liability. When they appeal to the British Authorities they are referred to the Saorstát and vice versa. It is not fair that the matter should be left in this way.

On this Vote I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to what is to be found in page 20 of the Estimates for Public Services—that is in connection with the Office of Customs and Excise. I am not in any way making a complaint against the officers. I must say that on any occasion in which I had any business to do with them I found them the embodiment of courtesy. But even the members of the Government Party would not have any objection if they had been less vigilant in some of their activities so far as taxing is concerned. We realise that they have duties to perform which are not always pleasant.

Last year on this particular Estimate I brought before the Minister a couple of points in relation to Customs and Excise along the Border. I think the same practice has since continued as was in force then and nothing has been done in changing the practice with regard to that. My complaint falls under two heads; first the case of people who are living under very peculiar circumstances, who owing to the nature of the regulations, though they may be very convenient to the public roads, have not the access to them that their business would warrant. The other is the policy which in the year before last was introduced in regard to the taxation of motor cars, belonging to people outside the Saorstát. In regard to the cars, it might be well, for the information of the House, if I say that the procedure in respect of them was changed. There was an arrangement by which the motor cars going from the Saorstát into Northern Ireland, or the motor cars from Northern Ireland coming into the Saorstát could be put under bond. They could have a bond signed at the frontier post on each side. The change was made by which what are called business cars coming into the Saorstát were made liable to thirty three and one third per cent. duty payable on the cars without any refund. On our side, we made that change. On the other side, it still remains the same. We from this side go in under no bond, no matter what our business is.

I do not want to claim that all business cars should come into this country duty free. I suppose we may leave what we may call the commercial traveller to take care of himself. He will manage all right. But we who live by the soil and the markets feel that we have a distinct grievance. Those towns that are near the frontier have a grievance, because a very serious inconvenience has been caused to those who raise competition in our fairs. It was my suggestion last year that a change should be made in respect of that. I will just give an illustration. Take, say, my own locality. Two men are living in the City of Armagh, and they want to come into our county. One of them is coming in to see his friends and drink a cup of tea with them. We welcome everybody who comes that way. One of these men comes out of our county to visit his friends, drinks tea with them, and goes back. He pays no duty on his car. Take another man from the same city who attends all our fairs, and at each fair to which he comes he will cause competition to the extent of anywhere from £1,000 to £4,000 in the cattle market or grass seed market, or pork market, according to the amount of produce that is bought by him. It does not take any great intelligence to see which of these two people are the most use to our country. In the one case we have a man coming in who raises competition and buys our produce, and in the other case the man comes in solely for pleasure. I do not make any case that that man should not be here, but I do say that it is not tending to benefit our trade to put a tax on the man coming in to spend money. The only case I know where such a procedure as this is adopted is in regard to a bazaar. When you go to a bazaar you are charged an entrance fee, and then they try to rob you when you get in. My suggestion is that a person coming to buy produce in our markets should be allowed to come in duty free. He is only coming in temporarily. The same applies not alone to the dealing man but to every man who has a motor car and wants to attend a fair in our district. It is a matter of common knowledge, and we cannot close our eyes to it, that our trade has suffered tremendously by that policy. The Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture are looking abroad for avenues by which our trade can be bettered, and by which we may have a new outlet for our produce. Here is a thing at our own doors, and by our own action we are trying to turn it away.

The other case is in respect of the people all along the frontier from County Louth to County Donegal. They are placed in a very awkward situation; they are people who, owing to regulations, we might describe as living in a sort of pocket. A number of cases have been brought before the Commissioners, but perhaps it is not within their power to make any change. I wonder is it the will of the House that that state of affairs should continue? Let us take the case of three men who live together in one particular locality. Two of them have motor cars, and they are in a fairly large way of business as farmers. Thirty yards would have brought any of them to the main road with their cars, but in order to get there legally— in order to cross there—they must make a journey of six miles. Suppose any of the three men was getting in stuff by road the method of transport would become a very great and acute problem. Suppose a motor lorry is used, though that lorry would be only thirty yards from the avenue leading to the man's house, it would have to make a journey of almost twenty-five miles before it could reach there. Those cases can be duplicated all along the Border. Looking at it entirely from the standpoint of the business of our own State I think it is not serving our people right. Those people are expected to pay their rents and taxes, and possibly income tax, and they have to meet those additional burdens that I have indicated. That condition of things does not help to bring loyalty to the State, because loyalty to the State is engendered by the feeling that the State is causing no unnecessary inconvenience. I know that this is an awkward problem, but the fact remains that very great inconvenience is caused along the Border, and I think some effort should be made towards alleviating the little difficulties under which the people suffer. I desire to make as strong an appeal as I am capable of making to the Minister for Finance to see if a way can be found out of this very awkward, very tedious, and unnecessary state of affairs.

In this case we are dealing with a Department that collects a lot of money, and my difficulty in this connection is whether, having regard to the cost of the collection, it is really worth while. I do not want to discuss in any way the desirability of income tax or anything of that kind. I want to get information which will enable me to confirm or change the opinion that a great deal of the tax which is collected is collected under conditions which do not give adequate results in view of the expenditure. I have at different times asked questions of the Minister for Finance, questions which, if studied, would reveal to him that we were really anxious to get very significant and important information which would enable us to judge this matter. I want to ask a series of questions now in relation to this, and I hope I will get the information.

Answering Deputy MacEntee in a written answer on the 25th April, 1928, the Minister for Finance said he was unable to give a proper division of the earned and unearned incomes prior to 1923-24, but he gave the following details for the years 1923-24, 1924-25 and 1925-26:—"... it is only possible at the moment to segregate the total of £24,461,000 for 1923-24 between earned and unearned income, the estimated amounts being £9,206,000 and £15,255,000 respectively." I will call the attention of the House to those figures—earned income £9,206,000 and unearned income £15,255,000. Can the Minister supply a correct proportion of the figures for each Schedule? It is noted on page 88 of the Report of the Revenue Commissioners—the scheduled reductions and exemptions— that what is now required is to apportion the net figure of the gross assessment as between the various sums charged. There is an issue in the minds of a good many as to whether certain assessments on incomes up to a certain amount are worth collecting. Until we get that information it is impossible to come to any definite judgment.

In reply to Deputy Briscoe on the 9th May, 1928, the Minister gave details of the amounts collected in 1923, 1924 and up to 1928. Deputy Briscoe asked if the Minister could state the total amount of arrears assessed as due to the British Exchequer and assessed by the Revenue Department for collection, and the total amount of those arrears actually collected from 1922 onwards. He desired particularly that the amount for each year should be given separately. In the Minister's reply we are faced by the fact that you have apparently a declining yield in income tax. As I will show you later, any income tax which is taken into account in a particular year apparently has no relation whatsoever to the conditions in that particular year. Therefore, if we are to estimate the trend of income which the Minister and his successors can expect from income tax, it is absolutely necessary that we should know over a period of years exactly how the income now coming into the Treasury under the head of income tax is made up. Obviously, the arrears of certain good years would be disappearing and the arrears which we have to collect now may be years of a different standard. Broadly speaking, unless you have those particulars it is quite impossible for the Minister to estimate what his probable income is likely to be under those particular heads.

Can the Minister state what amounts are now outstanding, or were outstanding, on the 5th April last for income tax in respect of each of the years from 1923-24 to 1926-27? That is a key figure which will tighten up the whole curve. In reply to Deputy Briscoe on the 9th May last—Deputy Briscoe seems to have asked very interesting and significant questions—the Minister for Finance said that the assessments made in 1922-23 were made by the British under an agency agreement. Could the Minister state the exact details of that agency agreement? I have not been able to lay my hands on the particulars and it is rather necessary for me to have them.

Is the Minister aware that in the middle and west of Ireland very severe inquiries are being made from income tax payers as to the income they had for years as far back as 1900? This particular activity seems to have started in that particular district, and seems to be in a rather violent state of local eruption. I want to know by what authority these inquiries were made; whether the inquiries have resulted in any payment to the Exchequer, and, if so, how much? I want the Minister definitely to direct his mind to the question of whether he has any authority, whether the Free State has any authority, over moneys collected or supposed to be due for that period. I am asking that question very definitely. I do not want the sort of obvious answer that "certain things are done, and if you do not do certain things we will go back." What I want to know is, what authority there is to collect money which would be supposedly due between, say, the years 1900 and 1905-6?

Certain information has come into my possession which I desire to check, and which I put forward neither affirming or denying it. Is the Minister aware that the Secretary of the Minister for Finance has interviewed certain taxpayers with regard to their tax payments? If so, will he state under what authority the Secretary of the Minister for Finance deals with income tax matters? I want to know whether any such act is within the knowledge of the Minister; if it has taken place; if it is with the authority of the Minister; and if it is with the authority of the Minister, under what right it is done? Can the Minister state the exact number of assessments made from 1923-4 to 1927-8 inclusive under Schedules A, B, C, D and E? The Minister, in reply to a question previously, stated that this could not be got without a great deal of difficulty. My information is that these assessments appeared in books, a certain number of assessments to the page, and that the total amount could be got without very serious difficulty. For instance, I think we all get numbers on our assessment forms, which certainly must mean something. Having regard to what we know of the large proportion of income tax which is collected, and the small number of sources from which the vastly larger proportion of that income comes, having regard to what we estimate the assessments to be—I estimate them in millions; I may be wrong, but I am speaking on very good and very expert advice in making an estimate of that kind—it seems that there must be an enormous number of assessments which are not worth even the paper and the lack of stamps on which they are sent out. Can the Minister state for each assessment area the following particulars for the twenty largest assessments under Schedule D: The gross sum assessed; the actual sum of the tax paid thereon, and the actual sum assessed, but not all paid. The figure should cover each year from 1923 to 1927-8 inclusive. These figures will have to be got out by the Minister for Finance if there is to be any intelligent use made of the inquiry, and I assume that the intention of the Minister is to make a very intelligent and effective use of the inquiry which he is setting up into the whole income tax position. For the information of those who may be very anxious and who are very anxious to help him in seeing that the income tax system as it comes out of that Committee is a more reasonable and more profitable one to the State than it now is, I suggest that that should be given to us now, so that we can digest it in the interval.

I have tried in the innocence of my heart to get certain information out of these records and certainly an attempt to read these reports of the Revenue Commissioners and get information out of them raises enormously my opinion of the Minister for Finance, if he does understand them. I can say that though they have been subjected to the most expert examination, and though much more than midnight oil has been spent on them, these significant figures which one wants to get have not been got out of them by the experts. I say quite frankly that from the information in the possession of any layman at present it is not possible to come to any sound conclusion as to the effect and influence of income tax collection upon the country. All we can do in that matter is to go back to our own individual experience and it is on that largely that we are going. I know actually the circumstances of fifty or perhaps a hundred cases, the examination of which has led me to believe that the benefit which the State is receiving from income tax collection under the system as it now exists is very questionable. I think there is very considerable evidence to show that in relation to, it may be, the majority in number of actual taxpayers, the amount which comes into the State is considerably less than the cost to the community.

I raised the question of going back to 1900, and I might just quote from page 80 of the third report of the Revenue Commissioners. I find them stating in paragraph 8:

"The time limit for making additional assessments was extended to eight years. This extension applied in 1922/3 and subsequent years."

Paragraph 9 states:

"The law relating to fines and penalties was revised and extended to six years for the year 1922/3 and subsequent years."

There is a very big difference between 1923 and 1900 and six years, and I want to know under what authority that was done. Table 79 of the report shows that in 1923/4 a gross sum approximating to 68½ million pounds was assessed for income tax purposes and before a penny of the tax was collected of that enormous sum, the sum of approximately 44 millions had to be discharged or exempted or granted under personal reductions. Out of 68½ millions originally assessed, 44 millions had to be discharged at once from assessment. That is about 64 per cent. of the total.

In the year 1924-25 we find that of 64 millions £35,643,000 had to be immediately discharged from assessment. That represents 56 per cent. of the total assessments. If I might go back for a moment to the question of what amount of nominal income tax income which comes in in a particular year can be related to that particular year, in the second report on page 88 it states that the total ultimately held to assessment for 1923/4 was £4,455,000 and one would expect that a moiety at least of that would come in in the year.

Certain inquiries were made of the Minister by Deputy Briscoe, on the 9th May last, and the Minister said there was collected in 1923-24 the sum of £3,461,000 in respect of assessments made prior to 1923-24, but it appears that the only sum collected in 1923-24 in respect of the assessment actually made in that year was £1,433,000 out of £4,455,000. Yet in the Report the Commissioners inform us that for 1923-24 £4,455,000 was collected for assessments actually made in 1923-24.

I would remind the Deputy that the money asked for in this Estimate is for 1928-29.

If you permit me to say so, I am dealing with the system which I shall bring right up to 1927 in order to prove the case.

I am pointing out to the Deputy that at the moment we are confined to the expenditure of this money in the year 1928-29.

I think there is an honest misunderstanding of the position on your part.

Perhaps the misunderstanding is on the Deputy's side.

We are dealing with a system of collection, and we have to ask what amount of the 1923-24 revenue is in the 1927-28 revenue. There is 1922-3-4 revenue, and even 1900 revenue, in the 1928-29 revenue, and that is what I am trying to find out.

The Deputy will have to stick to the Estimate under discussion.

On a point of order, the ruling you have given, sir, would make it impossible that this discussion should go on. The first point I had in my mind to raise was the cost involved in the present Estimate for the collection of arrears in previous years. If you rule that is out of order we may as well stop discussing the whole Estimate.

No, if the Deputy shows me that there is a relation between something in this Estimate and something that occurred in 1922-23 and in 1923-24, and that provision is made for that in this Estimate, then the Deputy would be in order.

You may take it that it is so. I feel sincere sympathy with the Revenue Commissioners in the unfortunate job they have in collecting the 1900 revenue and that is included in this Estimate.

I would like the Deputy to satisfy me on that point.

Perhaps I could satisfy An Leas-Cheann Comhairle on the point.

I want Deputy Flinn to satisfy me.

On a point of order, is the Deputy not entitled to refer back to 1923-24 in order to secure from the Minister a statement as to whether what happened in 1923-24 is happening in 1927-28?

I shall allow Deputy Flinn to show the relationship.

I shall put it in this form: There is great difficulty sometimes in changing over and swopping horses when crossing a stream. They have been swopping while crossing this stream. I am dealing here with what happened when your predecessor was in the Chair, when I asked for all these particulars. Apparently that was regarded as perfectly in order. We are not anxious to get out of order. This is a very technical subject.

I am not suggesting the Deputy is anxious to get out of order, but I am suggesting that unless he can show me the relationship between this Estimate and the year 1923-24 he is out of order.

Perhaps the Minister for Finance will help me by saying whether or not——

I do not require any help.

Frankly, I think it might be better to abandon it.

I wish to point out——

It is simply a question of understanding. "The expenses, including travelling and subsistence, incurred in connection with prosecutions and detections, etc.; costs and expenses of estate duty appeals, counsel's fees, payments to sheriffs, rewards to officers and others for detection of evasions of the Revenue laws, and on account of goods seized, and of fines and penalties recovered"—all that goes right back to 1923-24, and, I suppose, somewhere near Adam.

Is the Deputy quoting from the Estimate?

Yes, Vote 6, item L, page 24. Taking the years 1924-25, to come a bit closer up, the tax collected in 1924-25 was £5,180,000, less arrears for years 1922-23, £1,023,000, leaving £4,356,495; deduct the tax for 1923-4, the second instalment payable on July 1st, 1924, and including April, 1924, £3,022,319, leaving a balance contributed to the actual assessment for 1923-24 of £1,334,176. There are other cases which, frankly, I would like to discuss, but I think I had better abandon income tax under these circumstances.

Another point which I would like to raise, and it is a small point, but it is one with which I think the Minister for Finance is now painfully familiar, and that concerns the definition by the Revenue Commissioners of the word "educational" in relation to certain taxes. I will take a particular case merely to illustrate what the effect of that definition by the Revenue Commissioners is. I propose to read the following letter, which I wrote to the Minister for Education in relation to the matter:—

"I am very much obliged for your letter of the 24th inst., in which you set out quite clearly what is the existing difficulty—that there is in being a definition of ‘educational' and a method of interpretation thereof which has been held to exclude activities of the character described. What I am asking your co-operation in is the finding of an alternative definition and method of interpretation which will, while excluding a great deal of stuff which is not entitled to consideration, include activities which are, in fact, as predominantly educational in their purpose and effect as, I contend, this company's will be shown to be if subjected to the formal test of educational value which I suggest to you.

Broadly, I suggest that the existing definition and interpretation of ‘educational' for tax purposes has in fact broken down, and I produce the effect of this definition on this specific case as a proof that it has broken down and should be revised.

I have in my mind this procedure —that the onus of proof of educational purpose and effect shall lie, as at present, on those claiming exemption; that in some form the certificate of the educational departments shall be required as part of such proof; that the cost of such inspection by the educational department shall be borne by the applicant in any case in which the educational department is not satisfied as to the soundness of the claim."

A tax is levied upon entertainments unless they are of an educational character and we have in the Cork Shakespearian Society an example of what seems to me, at any rate, and as I shall show you seems to infinitely higher educational authorities than myself outstandingly an educational institution predominant. Imagine a body of this kind which is made up of very ordinary people. It does contain a few people of a different educational standard but, broadly speaking, they are very ordinary people indeed. In it you have Ford workers, pawnbrokers' assistants, drapers' assistants, grocers' assistants and people of that kind. These people have been so trained that in one particular week, without any single public rehearsal, they have put on in public seven uncut Shakespearian plays, and they have put them on in a quality which is amazing. There is no other word for it. I can speak for that because when I was first asked to go to see one of these performances, I turned it down, as I think any experienced person who had suffered from amateur Shakespearian performances, would. I expected to find something very different from what I did find. I went to curse and I stayed to pray. The actual merit of these performances was of such a character that I was induced on two successive nights, the only two nights that I could give them, to lose my last train and stay in Cork rather than miss the end of uncut Shakespearian plays performed by amateurs. I saw Hamlet by a boy of eighteen who had a split palate or some other defect of that kind, who when he started was unable to enunciate but who gave a representation of Hamlet of an amazing quality. Last Monday night I saw a boy of sixteen and a half perform Hamlet and he performed it with an absolutely clear and complete understanding of the implication of every word he used. I saw the whole caste, without exception, using every line and every word with complete understanding and that is what I have not seen in any professional company in my experience. I think those who have seen an ordinary Shakespearian——

Surely the Deputy is a little out of order.

I may be. What I want to stress is the actual educational value and purpose of this thing which has been turned down as being non-educational. On Monday night the President of the Cork University, Professor Merriman, appeared on the stage and on behalf of Cork thanked them for the educational value and purpose of what they had done. He said that in no place had the drama performed a more direct educational work and fulfilled a more direct educational purpose than in that particular case, and he said that he ought to know what was the meaning of education. Now we have asked the Minister for Finance to send his representative to examine into the educational value of this thing. We have asked the Minister for Education to subject it to the ordinary formal test of his educational inspectors. I do not think that has been done. But what other thing on earth can we do to prove that this thing is directly an educational institution? They took five boys from Farrenferis to fill a caste. They trained them, and when they went to Maynooth they took the first five places in elocution. We have children taking 100 per cent. marks in examinations of that kind. We have children trained wholly there who are now teaching elocution in this country. As to the Minister for Finance, I know that as far as this particular case is concerned I am pushing an open door, but however open it is we cannot get through it. What standard of education do they want in order that this thing may be done? I am a moderately educated man, and probably the majority of Deputies are moderately educated men, but I am perfectly sure that the education of every single Deputy would be increased enormously if they were subjected to the mere educational training which the people in this particular thing are getting.

I want the Minister for Finance to tell us what he is going to do in the matter of finding a definition of "educational" which will not exclude from the benefit of his remissions things predominantly educational of this kind. Frankly, I am not out to take revenue from the Minister under this head. I think there will be a whole lot of cases in which it would not apply. I would even press cases on the border line, but where you are using your tax machinery for the purpose of preventing the continued existence of an institution so blatantly educational as this, then some change ought to be made, and I ask the Minister for Finance to provide the machinery. In this particular case we are prepared to be examined by his educational officers. We are prepared to have them inspect every thing that is going on, and if they say it is not educational, then we are up against the fact that there is a definite difference in the meaning of "education" between the Government and ordinary outside people. I ask him to take a much better authority than I, the President of Cork University. If he is in any doubt as to its educational work, let him ask him.

My other point is this: We want a good deal more information on the subject of income tax and income tax collection than we are getting. There is an enormous amount of invisible cost. I do not think that the Minister for Finance will question it if I say that the invisible cost to the community of the collection of income tax is very considerably more than the cost which is shown in his books. I estimate that there are at least a thousand people, and there may be between thirteen and fourteen hundred, in the city of Dublin living on the community, due to the fact that there is an income tax in existence. Officials are scattered all over the country. What I suggest to the Minister is that he should give us in the fullest possible detail the information which he must have, and which he must give out eventually for the use of his own committee, so that when we come to consider the whole question of income tax collection we can do that with very much more knowledge than we now have.

I want to ask the Minister whether he thinks it would be possible in the near future to adopt some more simplified form of collecting income tax than the present one. The present method is very cumbrous and is both irritating and annoying. A man makes a return of his income tax for the year, and then he has four or five different people looking for money from him. It would be just as simple if, when he made a return, he got an assessment and paid the amount to one office, which could distribute it to the different districts in any way it liked. I should think, following what Deputy Flinn has said, that there must be some means of collecting income tax in another way which would mean much less expense to the State. There is another small thing that I would like to bring to the Minister's attention, and that is the over-zeal, or what sometimes amounts to impertinence, used by income tax collectors. Cases have come to my notice where an investment appeared in a return for one year but did not appear for the previous year, and the inspector wanted to know where the money came from. I say that that is not his business. In another case which came before me the man was married, his wife lost her mother and father some time before, the inspector found out somehow that she benefited under the will, and he wanted to know what the wife did with the money. I say that that is impertinence on the part of the inspector, and I presume that they are not entitled to any answer in such cases.

So that at the outside I may be in order I would refer to Item E—"Remuneration, etc., to Deputy Collectors and Assessors of Taxes," and I point out that in the Appropriation Accounts every year an item appears where there has been an excess cost caused by the payment of remuneration for the collection of arrears of tax outstanding from prior years. That also applies in the present year, and therefore I presume I am quite in order in referring to arrears of income tax, as they are covered by the cost for that particular item. As Deputy Flinn has pointed out, no matter what questions we put to the Minister for Finance, and no matter what answers we might get embodying certain figures, or series of figures, it is quite impossible for an ordinary individual or an ordinary Deputy to get down to the point where he can make a case in criticism of the whole system that prevails at present with regard to the collection of income tax. But one gets, as a result of intercourse day by day with people who are in trouble with the Income Tax Department, an idea as to how the system works, and I join with Deputy Murphy in asking the Minister if he could possibly hold out hope that the system will be overhauled and made more simple.

I want to make it clear that I am not at all in agreement or in sympathy with anybody who wants to evade the payment of income tax when it is due, but I say that it is not fair to penalise people who do not owe income tax, because of technical points that arise, nor is the average taxpayer at all in agreement with the penalising of people who do not owe income tax but who are assessed for income tax and become liable as defaulters because of a technical difficulty. Everybody is not educated up to such a point that he knows what forms mean and the seriousness of neglecting to read forms, and you have cases to-day such as that of a man with a very small salary, provided he is a single man, or a married man with a slightly larger income who is due to pay income tax. One cannot expect from the ordinary working man a full knowledge of all the technical points that there are in connection with income tax. I understand that in the first instance assessments go out to different people. The addresses may be got from a directory in the inspector's office, the inspector saying: "So-and-so has a place; he is not paying income tax, and I had better assess him," or it may be a lady. If that person is assessed wrongly, is not earning the money that would mean the payment of income tax and does not appear before the Commissioners within twenty-one days, he goes down in the books as owing the amount of tax for which he was originally assessed. One, two, or three years might go by and that person would be re-assessed. According to the books of the income tax collector he is in arrears, and then the trouble begins. The income tax collector is, of course, blamed for his over-zeal.

I sympathise to a great extent with those income tax collectors whom I had to deal with. Their duties are laid down by regulations. If one of them goes down to a certain place and finds that an individual who has not got a halfpenny in the wide world is down as owing nine or ten pounds he cannot help him; he cannot write it off. The only way in which that item can be written off, as far as I know, or as far as I could learn, is by giving sufficient proof to the Commissioners that it is uncollectable. What is the proof? The only proof that can be got is by proceeding to hand this arrear over to a solicitor. The solicitor naturally means further cost for the Department, and until he gets back a return of "no goods" from the sheriff these arrears cannot be written off. I consider that if a person, in the case of working class people or small shopkeepers, through a technicality, appears to be in arrears, and if, upon examination the inspector is satisfied that that person should never have been assessed, there should be some change of policy or, if you like, some Act brought in to change the present regulations, that would at least make the collector appear a human being, in place of the position he holds to-day in the eyes of the public.

I have also had brought to my notice the fact that the method of assessment involves sometimes assessing people who are dead for a number of years; the whole procedure is gone through and the man is not proved to be dead until it has gone to the last stage. All through the Department have been working on figures that are merely shadows. The assessments mean nothing. Deputy Flinn has pointed out the difference between the assessments and the amount afterwards collectable including those people who do not owe because of a technical oversight. Then the amounts collectable do not bear any relation to the amount collected. The Minister should go through the books of the people assessed to find out the amount assessed and see whether he could not introduce a simpler form of procedure; he should also find out what relation the amount assessed bears to the amount collectable.

Another case of hardship, in my mind, is this. The ordinary farmer or business man has the option of paying his income tax on an average of three years. What about the man in a job? I have a distinct case in mind where cost was involved to the State and no benefit accrued. A man got a job in a printing office; he was idle for a year but during the time he was engaged there was a boom in the printing trade and the printing house worked overtime. This man earned sufficient to be assessed for income tax. Immediately his twelve months were up the boom in the printing trade ceased and the man became unemployed for a certain number of months. He ceased drawing his unemployment benefit. In the ordinary course of events the books of the firm were audited, sent in, and this man appeared on the list of wage earners as having earned over £156. He was assessed for income tax for that particular year and thus came into arrears with his income tax. I have a letter from a solicitor to him stating that unless the amount of income tax is paid a decree will be taken out against him. That man is in fear of being put in jail because he did not pay his income tax, a man who could not even pay an instalment of sixpence a week. These are the things that bring up the costs of collection.

As Deputy Flinn pointed out, people should get a better idea of the situation as it confronts the Income Tax Department. Something should be done to simplify the collection in general, and cases of hardship should be dealt with in a manner to show that there is some moral understanding between the State and its citizens.

I do not want to go into the figures themselves. The figures I got in answer to certain questions make it quite clear that there is something obviously wrong there is such a difference between the amount assessed and the amount collectable. Deputy Murphy mentioned some cases. I would like to confirm what he says. In one particular case a professional gentleman asked me to accompany him to a certain office where he was acting on behalf of a client who was paying arrears. He asked me to accompany him to listen to the abuse which he, as a professional man, had to put up with from a single individual. I went along there, and it was disgraceful that a professional gentleman, acting in the interests of his clients, should not be treated with common courtesy rather than as if he was a defaulter himself. I am prepared to substantiate what I say.

I believe income tax officials are up against certain difficulties. They are blamed for being harsh and rude, but they cannot help it on account of the regulations. On the other hand, people who are being harassed ought to be considered on account of these regulations. I ask the Minister to hold out hope that something in the near future will be done to do away with the odium that income tax collectors have to contend with and the difficulties of the smaller income tax payers.

I have listened with some interest to what Deputy Flinn addressed to the Minister for Finance. I think he must have forgotten for a moment or two the fact that we have it on his authority that the Minister for Finance, in common with other members of the Executive Council, does not possess even a second-class brain. How he expects him to answer the questions and the enormous mass of figures he has put up, I do not know. I think this question ought to be treated seriously. I think there is, throughout the country, very grave dissatisfaction with the method by which income tax is being collected to-day. I agree with what Deputy Murphy said, and I think it is absolutely wrong to have the ridiculous questions income tax collectors put. We will get no money for the revenue. Also we are driving out the deposits in the banks. They are going out day by day and hour by hour, being driven out by income tax collectors and inspectors. Since I came into this House, on looking through my correspondence I find a letter from a constituent of mine who tells me that he was asked by the income tax inspector for a return of interest on deposit receipts. When it was sent to the inspector for the last three years, a request was sent back to get similar certificates from the 5th April, 1914. I think that is wrong, and it ought to stop somewhere. Already within the last few weeks I have seen many thousands of pounds leaving this country and going to another, sent by people who were not asked for returns but were afraid they would receive similar treatment to that of their neighbours.

It was only within the last week or two that my firm sent to an inspector of taxes an audited return dealing with a company started in the year 1926 which, on its face, showed that it was started in the year 1926. Back comes a query from the inspector of taxes, one of 17 different queries, "Kindly say how long before 1926 the company was trading?" The company could only have traded from 1926 and anybody of ordinary intelligence would know that the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies would not allow a company to take its title for 1926 that had started trading earlier. Still, notwithstanding that the accounts were as clear as noon-day, clear to the ordinary schoolboy who may not have second-class brains but is only in the second book, yet there came back seventeen different queries all done for the purpose of annoyance. That ought to stop. There is no use in harassing taxpayers. I am sure the Minister for Finance would be no party to it and, even though having only second-class brains, I should say he would be able to tell the inspector of taxes that he ought to treat this as a matter of reason and ought to treat taxpayers with courtesy. I know a man who has paid each year his income tax. In sending in his form to the income tax office he omitted to put the interest on the deposit receipts of some money he got from my firm. When he was asked, he gave it at once and sent up the certificate. The answer he got was: "Please note you have made a false declaration." I suggest that inspectors of taxes should be warned and told that they should not indiscriminately hurl criminal charges against taxpayers. The law and common sense are against it. There is no reason why these charges should be fired against taxpayers. Unless inspectors adopt different methods I suggest to the Minister that they are only engaged in one object, that is, hunting money out of this country. That should be stopped.

Last year I think the President stated that farmers did not pay income tax. They are, however, rather seriously afflicted with that misfortune. I say "misfortune" because I believe that in many cases they are paying largely out of capital. Under Schedule A and B, the method adopted to raise income tax is in respect of the poor law valuation, whether there is any income or not, so that the farmer has to pay in any event. That may be all right, but what I am not satisfied about is whether the revenue authorities are able to raise as much in one year as would pay the officials. In other words, does the amount obtained cover the cost of collection? It seems to me that the system is not suitable to the agricultural community and, from what I have heard here, I do not believe that it is satisfactory to the commercial community either. I suppose that when protection was done away with in England, income tax was introduced as another means of raising revenue, but it was never meant to be used on the farming community as it is being used to-day. About a week ago I heard of a case of seizure, for income tax, of a farm in Meath. I do not know the man in question very well, but I know the land and the district, and, without seeing a book or account, I could guarantee that such a man could have no money. The method of assessment is most unsatisfactory, with the result that farmers get puzzled. They are charged with arrears of income tax. They do not usually keep accounts, and they become so frightened of sheriffs and lawyers that they come to Dublin and seek advice from what are called income tax experts. That in itself means an extra tax. If this system in regard to farmers is to be continued it should be simplified so that they might have an opportunity of understanding it.

I thoroughly agree with what has been said in regard to the desirability of having a little more courtesy from officials. It would be well if income tax inspectors got it into their minds that farmers are not altogether so dishonest as they believe them to be. More courtesy would I believe, lead to greater harmony and to greater confidence between the parties. The general impression among income tax collectors is that farmers have a habit of hiding things and that they are clever in withholding necessary information. That is not as it should be. The other matter, of which Deputy Jasper Wolfe has spoken, is one which I have observed in many cases, and it is seriously affecting the question of capital and the investment of capital. People are afraid to invest any capital because, if they do, the first question they are asked is: "Where did you get that?" They have to make open confession and to state where that money was in 1916 or some other year. The result is that, whereas there may be a whole community looking for employment, the money is locked up, and as it generally has to earn some interest it very often is sent out of the country. That is one very serious effect of the present system. Day by day it is depriving the country of capital and preventing people from investing. It brings no benefit to the community here. Then again, as regards curiosity and the number of questions which are asked of people who are supposed to owe income tax, to my mind they amount to nothing more than indecent curiosity. I think that farmers should get a little more credit in regard to their sense of honour. If they did, I think that the authorities would get a good deal more information and that farmers would have more confidence in giving such information. My main objection to the present system is that it is impossible for the ordinary farmer to understand the demands which he gets. It is not easy for him to fill up forms. The system is altogether too intricate for the average farmer. It may suit commercial bodies with staffs of clerks, but it is not suitable to the farming community.

I wish to refer to a type of case which is pretty common. I know that complaints have come to me from Waterford in regard to goods sent in here on approval, and on which a tax has to be paid. If they are sent out afterwards and come back here again the tax has to be paid a second time. Some machinery should be set up by which a tax on goods coming in on approval need not be paid. I know a case in which a certain quantity of the goods sent on approval was purchased and the rest sent back, but there seems to be no way by which one could get a rebate in the case of the goods sent back. There seems to be something wrong with the present machinery. I would associate myself with the remarks that have been made about the administration in regard to income tax. There is a general feeling that not only is the administration harsh but that it is also tricky. Whenever groups of professional people come together you hear case after case cited in which people are asked to pay tax on imaginary income. Demands are made to saddle claims on them which should not be saddled upon them. The result is that each individual who has a demand made on him has to go to a lawyer or an income tax expert, and very often wastes his time and money in trying to clear these demands for tax on an imaginary income. If these individuals are not quick enough to realise the penalties involved by delay they will be saddled with an additional tax. Then there are cases of hardship, such as those mentioned by Deputy Briscoe, in regard to people who earned an income previously but who are now unable to do so. There are people in Dublin who have been unable to pay their income tax and who have either to go to jail or sell their house in order to pay the income tax.

The whole attitude in connection with the collection of income tax is wrong. I admit that it is a difficult matter, that people are generally not willing to pay more than they can help naturally enough. But I think the general public are willing to pay what is due, and certainly when they go to professional men for advice they obviously get the advice that they should pay what is due and no more. You do have cases where people have been evading the payment of income tax for a long time. In another debate I mentioned this matter and made a suggestion that where there are deposits in the banks, where people have money which is concealed, it would be far better to make some arrangement with these people and get some income from them. The attitude taken up by the Minister for Finance is a point blank refusal to deal with these people except at the point of the gun. However logical that attitude may be, and however strict it may be according to law it is a false attitude from the point of view of getting money in. These people can take their money out of the country and they are doing it, and we have the evidence of Deputy Wolfe that the money is going out. I suggest that it would be far better to make some offer to these people.

In the mid-19th century in England, what happened in the case of income tax was that it was found extremely difficult to collect it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time in England fixed on the idea of giving rebates. The result of that was that he was able to discover a great deal more about people's incomes than he was able to discover before. I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he should go some way by offering an inducement to people who have not paid income tax in the past to do so. He would know exactly how much they would have to pay. In that way, too, the Minister would be able to collect income tax which otherwise he is not going to be able to collect at all. Another suggestion that I made on another occasion may be worth repeating. It is that we should have here, as they have in England, some system of arbitration. In England you have a system by which neutral parties, professional men or lay men, as far as the Department is concerned, are availed of to arbitrate and decide on matters regarding income tax assessments and the amount of income tax to be paid. I think that with a little more willingness to co-operate, and an attempt to get people to feel that the Department is not being administered either harshly or in an intricate manner, that you would probably get in a considerable amount more in the way of income tax than you are getting at present. I know that the regulations are binding on the officials, to a certain extent. I suppose they feel that they have to sacrifice even their own feelings in the matter, but I suggest that the situation is an extremely serious one and that it should receive the immediate attention of the Minister for Finance.

I wish to protest against this human machine. In particular, I object to the farming community being asked to pay something like £400,000 in salaries and £186,000 in war bonus to these officials. I think that a salary of £1,500 a year is high enough without carrying with it a war bonus of £212. I notice that there are a number of officials in this Department with salaries of £1,000 a year. I suppose they are also paid a percentage according to the amount of money they are able to squeeze out of the people. I suggest that in the present state of agriculture it is an outrage to be paying such salaries and to be looking for income tax from farmers when one considers the position they are in at present. Every member of the Executive Council is well aware that the farmers at the present time are quite unable to do more than pay their way. Several cases have been brought to my notice where the present Government proceeded for the collection of the arrears of income tax for the years 1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921. I have known farmers who entered into possession of their holdings in the end of 1920, or early in 1921, who were visited by collectors of income tax with two "bums" and their cattle seized for arrears of income tax due on their holdings in respect of the year 1919. I would like to know by what process the Minister for Finance arrived at the conclusion that these farmers were liable for these arrears of income tax. Some of them, from 1918 to 1920, had not as much land as would sod a lark, and yet "bums" and bailiffs were brought to their holdings in 1921 and their cattle seized for arrears of income tax on holdings which they did not occupy in 1918 or 1919.

At the present time we have the Minister for Agriculture on the one hand, and the Executive Council on the other, telling the farmers to work harder, to live more frugally and to grow what pays. All this good advice is given to the farmer at a time when he is asked to provide £186,000 a year in war bonus for gentlemen who have salaries of £1,500 a year. I think it is time that there was a cry of halt somewhere. In my opinion it is an outrage and an impertinence for any Minister to look for money to pay war bonus to officials with salaries of £1,500. We are informed that two of the Income Tax Commissioners, with salaries of £1,000 and £1,200 each, are out of good nature acting as secretaries to Departments without any additional salary. One is really amazed at their generosity. I think that these gentlemen ought to have statues put up to them. As you have knocked down William you can stick up one of these gentlemen. The Minister for Finance would, I think, be well advised to finish up as regards the collection of income tax in the case of the farming community who at the present day are in such a bad condition. The Minister for Agriculture can tell him that the farming community is not in a position to pay income tax. In fact they are quite unable to pay their way, not to talk at all about paying income tax. It is quite ridiculous, too, that the assessment in regard to income tax should be based on the poor law valuation of a man's holding. We all know that there are farmers whose poor law valuation is £150, but whose income from it would not be £30 or £10. How, by any stretch of the imagination, can the Minister think that these people are liable for income tax? It is more than I can fathom.

I would like to know definitely by what process he succeeded in finding farmers liable for income-tax who never entered into possession of their holdings until the end of 1920 or the commencement of 1921, a tax that was due by their predecessors in the holding. I know farmers who had bums and income tax collectors calling on them to seize their cattle for income tax due in that way. I have known several farmers who were on the run or in gaol during those periods and were compelled to pay a tax on their farms which were derelict during those periods, and who were visited by bums and bailiffs for the collection of taxes. I would like to know the process by which the Minister arrived at the conclusion that these individuals were liable for income tax. I think that he certainly should not give a war bonus to officials with a salary of £1,500.

Deputy MacEntee referred to requests that were being made by income tax inspectors for the production of deposit receipts. It is not normal to ask for a deposit receipt in the case of the ordinary honest taxpayer in whose case no suspicion arises. In general, deposit receipts are asked for when the taxpayer has been detected in some type of fraud, or in the attempt to perpetrate some kind of fraud on the revenue. I mentioned that I had lately a case brought to my notice where a man was giving a good deal of trouble over the production of information in regard to sums on deposit in the banks. Here is what happened. He was in a comparatively small town where there were a number of banks, and he produced a certificate from a bank manager that he had no deposit account, but after further investigation it transpired he had withdrawn money that was on deposit in that particular bank a few days before the appeal meeting of the Special Commissioners, that he held the cash until after the hearing of the appeal, and then re-lodged it. Further investigations disclosed that he had both a deposit account and a current account in every other bank in the town, and that he had deposits in the names of his wife and daughter. There were in fact, eight deposit accounts in all. No doubt, that is the type of gentleman who would go to the Deputy and tell him about the dreadful iniquities of the income tax officials.

A great many Deputies have come to me with complaints, and on investigation I found that the people who went to Deputies only told them half the story or even less than half the story. I have no doubt with regard to a good many of the cases mentioned here that the Deputies have not got the facts. Personally I have no means of getting the facts in regard to any case, except the taxpayer, or somebody authorised by him, comes to me and discloses his private affairs. In that case the Revenue Commissioners may reply to the point I put them. Otherwise, they cannot give me any information, for it would be disclosing improperly the affairs of a private individual. It is wrong, in my opinion, to suggest that capital is being caused to leave the country by anything that the Revenue Department is doing. There was a withdrawal of capital in 1923, and there might still be some occasional withdrawals, but there is no evidence we can find to suggest that there is any substantial withdrawal of capital going on. I would like to say I believe the complaints we heard here to-day are really due to this fact, that we have within the past twelve months for the first time established an investigation branch.

Deputies will be aware that when the change of Government took place the whole question of income-tax collection was in a state of chaos. Documents had been destroyed, great masses of arrears had piled up, and there would have been great difficulty in dealing with that even with a full staff, but we had the additional difficulty that, I suppose owing to the disturbed conditions in the country, we could not get a sufficient number of income tax inspectors who would transfer to the service of the State, and for a considerable time we were only able to carry on the collection of income tax in any sort of satisfastory manner at all by reason of the fact that the British Government lent us as many, I think, as ten income tax inspectors, who remained with us until such time as we could get tax clerks whom we could promote, and recruit a certain number of people from other branches of the service to carry on the work of inspectors. Because of that mass of accumulated arrears, and the shortage of staff, we were not able to set up any investigation branch to deal with cases of fraud or cases of extreme difficulty. In Great Britain there is a very large investigation branch, consisting of a considerable number of highly-expert tax officials, and they are the people who get after all sorts of difficult cases and all sorts of fraud.

The ordinary tax inspector in a district deals with normal routine work. So far as we were concerned, the inspector in a district had to deal with an abnormal amount of routine work and to try occasionally to get after cases when he believed false returns were being made. He could not pursue investigations to the extent they ought to be pursued, as otherwise a fresh mass of arrears would be piling up. Within the past twelve months we have been able to detail a number of inspectors for investigation, and they have been able to get after the people who have been defrauding the Revenue and their neighbours, and they made large numbers of them pay up. As a matter of fact, the work of the investigation branch has brought in in the present year something like £100,000 from people who had that money by fraud, by false returns and falsifying books, people who were not merely cheating the Revenue, but their neighbours, because owing to the fact that they did not pay up the revenue had to be contributed to in a greater degree by their neighbours who were honest. Well, I think income tax is essentially a fair tax, and the only tax that does not fall more heavily on the poor than on the rich. It is only fair if it is as rigidly collected as possible. It is only fair if everybody, as far as can be done, is made to pay his fair share.

If there is slackness or anything like that which allows one man with a substantial income to get away with the tax while the man next him with lesser income is obliged to pay his tax, then it is unfair. I believe that the complaints that are coming to the ears of Deputies are due to the fact that people who defrauded the Revenue successfully up to recently have been got after, and one hears them going around spreading their complaints and telling stories that are only partially true. They tell these stories to the Deputies or to anybody else who will listen to them.

Deputy MacEntee, I think, misunderstood me when he quoted my reference to the fact that people came to me and came to other Deputies, and he went on to suggest that because they came to me or came to other Deputies they were allowed to escape the payment of the tax. They are not allowed to escape the payment of the tax. What happens is that the tax collector is often deterred from taking proceedings, because he is told and he has had letters shown to him, that Deputies are making representations to the Minister or to the Commissioners. I have known such cases. I had a case recently before me brought up by two or three Deputies in this House. That was a case in which a man made all efforts to avoid paying a sum of several thousand pounds. He succeeded in seeing me. He used the fact that he had seen me to put off the collector and to put off the paying of the money. He fought a delaying engagement in that way. Here is the fact: The man, on his own statement, admitted that he had marketable securities that he was trying to sell. But what he was trying to do was delaying action so as to hold on to the interest of £6,000. The Deputies who first came to me about him believed that he was most hardly treated and that the Revenue Commissioners were going to put him out of business and all that sort of thing.

While I do not want to say that the Revenue is perfect, I do say that so far as the cases brought up by the Deputies are concerned the great majority of them are incomplete stories. Some Deputy has referred to impertinence on the part of tax officials. I would certainly take steps to ensure that any official who was guilty of rudeness or impertinence to a taxpayer would be properly reprimanded and would be induced not to be guilty of that again. I have occasionally heard cases like those I have heard to-day at secondhand, where somebody said that a tax official was guilty of rudeness or impertinence to somebody else. But I have not yet heard of any such case from a taxpayer at first hand. Nobody came to me to say that a tax official was guilty of rudeness or impertinence to himself. Before I would conduct any investigations I would need to have a complaint from the person who was directly concerned, and who would be in a position to give direct evidence.

Would the Minister investigate the specific case given by Deputy Briscoe? I am not trying to interrupt the Minister, but I make that suggestion.

I do not remember the particular points of Deputy Briscoe's case at the moment, but I have some note of it here. The main point is this, that the person actually aggrieved ought to write to me and stand over his complaint and not refer it to somebody else. I, so far, have not had a direct complaint. In these cases we would often want to hear the whole story again, because what might be an impertinent inquiry in certain circumstances might, in the course of an argument about an assessment, be a very pertinent and fair inquiry. A man might be contending certain things and might be trying to induce the inspector to accept arguments of his, and it would be quite fair and reasonable for the inspector in such cases to ask questions which he could not ask on his own initiative. In all these cases we should have the facts, and the person who feels aggrieved should be willing to write to me or to the Revenue Commissioners, and any such complaint will be investigated.

The question of simplification has been mentioned here. I have stated several times in the Dáil that I am satisfied that the present income tax code is not suitable to the conditions here. I have also stated to the Dáil that if it had not been for the extreme pressure of work on the staff we would, long before this, have taken some steps to bring about simplification. We have had a Committee sitting in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners with a view to preparing legislation, at any rate to take some first steps in simplification, and we hope to include in the next Finance Act some provision along that line. We are not in a position to overhaul the whole question, but we will try to remove some of the difficulties and take definite steps towards simplification. I do not know whether we would be justified in going the whole hog, so far as this country is concerned, to abolish deductions at the source in respect of certain classes of income. There is a great deal to be said for it, but we will have to see whether it would lead to a great loss or whether it would lead to an evasion of revenue tax, or whether in order to prevent that evasion you would not have as great difficulties and as much work and expenditure as would be attendant on the repayment necessitated by deduction at the source. There is this much to be said, that we are clearing up the arrears position. A staff is being trained. We will shortly be in a position to have men available not merely for investigation but for something more than mere routine work, for undertaking inquiries and investigations and all the calculations that are necessary for an overhauling of the entire system.

Deputy Haslett asked a number of questions with regard to the land frontier. He asked for exemption from the necessity of paying tax on cars bringing in men who are going to do a certain class of business. He raised the question last year. I got a good many local inquiries made and I could not ascertain that in fact there had been any reduction in the number of dealers or cattle buyers attending the fairs by reason of the arrangement that was made some fifteen or eighteen months ago. The arrangement made fifteen or eighteen months ago was made in consequence of complaints that cars from Northern Ireland which had not paid taxes were being used in competition for business purposes against people whose cars, as the owners live in the Saorstát, had actually paid taxes. We rectified the complaint that then existed, but in rectifying it, as a matter of fact, there arose some new grounds of complaint. These new grounds of complaint were created. We modified the order and most of the new complaints were removed. There are still some other complaints and if they can be remedied, we will give the best consideration possible to the question.

As to people living in awkward places along the Border, I do not think that we can get rid of these difficulties. Sometimes, individuals in these cases would, by opening some sort of a new path, which could hardly be dignified as a road, but which would enable them to avoid crossing the Border, be able to get over a difficulty of that kind.

Deputy Flinn asked me a great number of questions which were really in the nature of Parliamentary questions. He gave me notice of them, but the notice only arrived this morning and for that reason I am not in a position to answer them. As a matter of fact, I was occupied until 2.15 p.m. and I had not a chance even of seeing the Deputy's letter until that time. The only thing I can suggest to him is that he should put them down as Parliamentary questions now and we will give him whatever information we have or that can be obtained. We will give him in some cases partial information and an explanation why more cannot be given. The Deputy will be able to get all the information that can be reasonably obtained. If there is information which can be obtained only with considerable difficulty, we can discuss with him whether it is worth going to the expense involved or whether partial information might not suffice.

With regard to the Cork Shakespearian Society, I think Deputy Flinn realises that a matter like this is really difficult. A man might be inclined to say that if it were taken alone he could regard it as educational, but really the question is: Where are we going to stop in the matter of exemption? Are we to exempt every Shakespearian society, and, if we are, are we going to tax other plays by authors of repute? Are we going to exempt only amateur Shakespearian performances that may be deemed necessary for educational purposes? Is the work of amateurs of more educational value than the work of professionals? Is the work of a particular society of educational value to the audience or to the performers? The question could be asked whether it is the performers who derive the whole educational value rather than the public on whom the tax is charged. There is a very good Shakespearian company which has toured the country and given good performances. That company has attracted large audiences, and it is, in my opinion, doing a type of educational work; but after all it is a commercial company and there could be very much the same sort of plea made for it as was made for the Cork Society. So far as public societies are concerned we have looked into this matter and if we were to exempt this particular society, unless we can get some formula better than any we have found yet, the difficulty is that we would be admitting others and we could not find any logical line at which to stop. The matter can be further considered, but it is very difficult.

Deputy Briscoe asked about people who became liable owing to some technical difficulties about an oversight in not making returns or not lodging any notice of appeal when an estimated assessment was made. If notice of appeal is not given and if the assessment is allowed to be final and conclusive, then there is no method of discharging it. The situation that Deputy Briscoe depicted arises, but I do not feel that we ought to give discretion to inspectors to discharge assessments. Undoubtedly, if they had such power they would be subjected to pressure and to temptations that it is not desirable to subject them to, and the difficulties of supervision would be enormously increased. The real remedy for the situation is to get it into the minds of the people that a notice of assessment is not a thing to be ignored and that they ought to take steps on it. If this is done we will not have these cases arising. We cannot depart from the position that where an assessment has become final and conclusive a debt to the State has been created and if the money can be collected then it must be collected. I think if we have no rigidity, then we open the door to every sort of intrigue, political and otherwise, and I believe it would be an extremely bad thing for the whole community.

Deputy Jasper Wolfe mentioned a case, but I think I have dealt with the position where people were asked for information back to 1914. Deputy Flinn mentioned cases where people were asked for information back to 1900. The position is that if a taxpayer is detected in fraud in respect of this or last year it is a common thing to give him a choice either of making a clean breast or allowing an investigation to take place that will cause the particular tax he has defrauded the revenue out of to be recovered and pay a mitigated penalty or stand for prosecution and pay the penalty that would otherwise be inflicted. People very frequently choose to pay up a tax rather than face prosecution and full penalty, and in that case the Revenue Commissioners take the more lenient line of recovering the tax out of which the Exchequer has been defrauded. plus a mitigated penalty, rather than proceed for full penalty against the taxpayer. That is the way in which some investigation in regard to years very far back arises, and I think there are no reasonable grounds for complaint in regard to them.

Deputy O'Reilly, Deputy Corry and others mentioned the case of the agricultural community. I do not see any reason to alter the view that if we are considering the farmers who live by agriculture who have no other source of income but their farms, the entire income tax from them would not pay for the electric light used in this Chamber. The farmers who do pay are the farmers who are also shopkeepers and who have investments or something of that nature. There may be the case of a large farmer, but he must be a large farmer, if a married man with children and with a large valuation, to come within the ambit of the tax beyond the exemption limit. It might happen that such a farmer would be assessed, but whatever can be said about that type of farmer, there is an excuse for the small farmer who does not keep accounts. So far as the large farmer is concerned, if he does not keep accounts he ought to pay, and there is no excuse why a farmer of that kind should not produce accounts which would enable assessments to be discharged.

Deputy Corry referred to cases of people who bought land some considerable time ago towards the end of the boom period. These people were assessed for arrears of tax on the land. I do not know what the facts of the particular cases are, but so far as Schedule A is concerned, I have known cases where people bought land, where they or their solicitors did not take the necessary precautions, and they were charged and had to pay considerable sums of income tax which were owing on that land. It is the business of a purchaser to ensure that there are not arrears of tax to which he will be liable outstanding on the land. I undertook, as a matter of fact, arising out of certain inquiries from the Fianna Fáil Benches, to make a new arrangement whereby information which was not hitherto given by the Revenue authorities would be given to the purchasers in future to facilitate them in making sure that tax was not due on land.

Will the Minister explain how this income tax is due on land? I thought it would be on the individual's income.

In the case of Schedule A, it follows the land, if it has not been paid.

Even though the poor law valuation and other things would not be sufficient to warrant income tax being assessed on the land?

I do not want to go into that at length. If the Deputy will send me the names of the cases I will get him full information with regard to them. I was only stating general principles for the information of the Deputy, who seemed to think that it could not arise without some definite wrong-doing or act of harshness on the part of the Revenue authorities.

Deputy Little referred to the case of goods coming in on approval. I suppose he was referring to wearing apparel. We deliberately refrained from making any arrangement for the payment of drawback on articles of apparel which had been imported on approval. We did that because there would be a great number of payments to be made, if we had made arrangements for it. A great deal of expense would fall on the State, because of the staff that would be employed and the precautions that would have to be taken to avoid fraud. We came to the conclusion, on the whole, that the best thing to do was to make no arrangement for the payment of drawbacks in such cases, and the Revenue Commissioners are simply carrying out the law.

Deputy Little also pleaded for more friendly treatment of people in the position of being defaulters. I cannot agree that good results to the revenue would follow that. We did give a certain time. Advertisements were published and a period was fixed during which defaulters could make a clean breast of it and no penalties would be incurred. I do not think it would be desirable to repeat that. I believe the result would be that we would probably have people again carrying on a policy of default in the hope that there would be another amnesty. As a matter of fact, I do not think the problem is of the magnitude Deputy Little believes it is. I do not believe that there is such an amount of fraudulently withheld tax which cannot be got after otherwise that Deputy Little believes there is. In view of all the circumstances, I think it would not be justifiable to make any special arrangement at this stage.

I know that Deputies who took part in this discussion did not, in general, make any attack upon the Revenue officials, who were doing their duty. But, apart from the question of any attack on officials, I would remind Deputies that we hear requests from almost all quarters of the House from week to week for expenditure on some new service or for further expenditure on some existing service. In order to maintain existing services, or to provide for any new services, the revenue has to be collected, and an attitude of sympathy with people who do not do their duty in the matter of meeting their obligations to the State and to the Exchequer is only going to make it more difficult—if it is thought that there is that attitude in this House— and more costly to the Revenue Commissioners to carry out their work. I believe that, while, as I have said, no personal rudeness to any taxpayer should be tolerated, and while there should be no question of pursuing or harassing any individual, there ought to be a rigid insistence that where the tax is due it will be collected, and that where a person is making false returns for the purpose of avoiding his obligations every possible effort will be made to find him out and inflict penalties on him that will discourage him from doing the like again.

I once heard the Revenue Commissioners tremendously blamed for harshness in a particular case. On investigation I discovered that the apparent harshness at the end was due to too much consideration which was abused at an earlier stage. I believe that if there is not support in the House for the reasonable and proper efforts of the Revenue authorities to collect the revenue, not only are we going to have people escaping at the expense of their neighbours, but, in the long run, stronger methods—if you like, harsher methods—will have to be used than if people get it into their heads that there is no escape and that they ought to pay what is due and look as pleasant as they possibly can about it.

The Minister has not dealt with my point in reference to Guinness's shareholders.

The Deputy discussed that before. The real difficulty is that the law both here and in Great Britain is entirely against those people. If Guinness's shareholders here feel they have a grievance against us, Great Northern shareholders in Great Britain or Northern Ireland have a grievance against the British Government. If we had not got the new income tax relief agreement, it would have been necessary to make legal changes and get rid of the position which undoubtedly has inflicted a certain hardship on the people whose incomes are below the exemption limit and who derive their income from shares in firms such as Messrs. Guinness. But it seems to me that at this stage it would be difficult to go back over the matter and to do it in a one-sided way—to do it without having the same thing done where the converse case holds in respect to, say, Great Northern shareholders. I believe myself that there is no ground for thinking that the British Government would be prepared to go back over the matter and deal with their case. It was a certain hardship— if you like, it was a definite hardship— to these people, but we have got a new arrangement whereby that cannot recur in the future. On the whole, I do not think it is desirable to re-open the case and retrospectively amend the law for the benefit of a particular class after the lapse of two or three years or more.

Which Government has retained the money? Is it the British Government or the Saorstát Government?

In reference to the definition of education I agree——

Is the Deputy asking a question? The Minister has concluded the debate.

Yes, I am asking a question as to the definition of education, and I suggest to the Minister that he should accept some such definition as the following:—We want to intervene a definitely educational authority to certify to the question of education. The definition has broken down. I am not arguing the case except from the point of view of the definition. I suggest that the Minister should include the following definition or something of that kind in his rules: "That the effect on the actual members of the body and on those attending their exhibitions shall be certified by the educational authority to be definitely and predominantly educational as distinct from cultural." I suggest if the Minister puts that in and puts upon those who claim exemption the onus of getting such a certificate from the educational authority we will get over all the worst difficulties in the matter.

We will examine the Deputy's suggestion.

Question put and agreed to.
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