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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 May 1931

Vol. 38 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 22—Stationery and Printing.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £77,283 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thioc-faidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun costais soláthair Pháipéarachais, Clódóireachta, Páipéir, Greamuíochta agus Leabhra Clóbhuailte i gcóir na Seirbhíse Puiblí; chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an tSoláthair d'íoc; agus chun Ilsheirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha maraon le Tuairiscí Díospóireachtaí an Oireachtais.

That a sum not exceeding £77,283 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the expense of providing Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the Public Service; to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; and for Sundry Miscellaneous Services, including Reports of Oireachtas Debates.

In previous years it was found possible to make reductions in the net amount required for this service, a continuous fall in net expenditure having been effected in the Estimates since 1st April, 1923. This year, however, though a not altogether negligible further reduction in the amount required for the public service generally has been made, this reduction has been more than offset by a big increase in the sum required to meet the expenses of publication of "Iris Oifigiúil" (Sub-head G). The Land Act, 1931, under which it is proposed that the land, tenanted and untenanted, still remaining unvested at the date of the passing of the Act shall be immediately vested in the Irish Land Commission, will entail publication in "Iris Oifigiúil" in the present year, of notices in respect of some 100,000 holdings. Publication will be made of each estate vested, and will include, in addition to the name and address of the tenant and area to be vested, supplementary heads such as particulars of tenancy, standard price, easements, etc., etc., so that it will become necessary to make publication in tabular form.

The cost of such publication is naturally out of all proportion to that of the hitherto regular week by week vesting as published, and though it has been possible so to amend and recast the form of publication as to bring down the printing costs by approximately four thousand pounds, the Estimate for the sub-head is still higher by £12,700 than in the year 1930-31. So voluminous is the mass of material to be dealt with that it is anticipated that the volume of "Iris Oifigiúil" will be increased by some 120 closely-printed pages, weekly, during a period of over four months, assuming that it is found possible to compress the work of publication into this period.

An increase in the Estimate for Salaries and Wages (sub-head A) is also required, partly to meet the cost of the staff of the Sale Office which has been opened for the direct sale of Government publications, and partly to meet the normal increases of salary (Office and Warehouse). The general cost of the Sale Office rent, salaries, &c., will be offset by increased Appropriations-in-Aid in respect of discounts on sale publications, customs and factory forms, &c., which discounts have previously been secured by agents under contract.

Other small increases are shown under Incidental Expenses (sub-head C) due to a slight addition to the sum required for advertisements and under Books and Maps (sub-head M) due to an increased provision towards a technical library for the Industrial and Commercial Property Office (Patent Office).

On the other hand economies, substantial in the aggregate, are anticipated on the remaining sub-heads. The more significant are:—(1) Printing under the Electoral Acts (sub-head H), £2,520. The full effect of the "reprint with alterations" rates, applicable to the five years' contract for printing the Registers of Electors proper is now being felt, and assuming that the contracts which are held throughout the country will continue to run their course the reduction in the Estimate should be fully justified. Four-sevenths of the cost of this printing is borne by the local authorities and is brought to account of the Stationery Office Vote as an Appropriation-in-Aid. (2) Printing for Public Departments (sub-head I). Here it has been possible to anticipate a decrease amounting to £1,305 in the coming year. The volume of general printing for the public service shows no sign of decline, but savings are anticipated on reports, of which a large number have been appearing in the past few years. Although there is likely to be a decrease in the printing costs the volume of printing for the repayment services still continues to be considerable.

The production of text books and general readers in Irish for the Department of Education (Votes 47 and 49) represents expenditure on printing and binding amounting to from £4,000 to £5,000 within the year which, being charged to "suspense" is not reflected in the Estimate. It is also noted that the provision of an English-Irish dictionary ultimately to be printed and published by the Stationery Office has been approved and provision of books and stationery for Preparatory Colleges is a regular repayment service. The Department of Industry and Commerce (Vote 56) bears a charge of £3,550, the bulk of which represents the expenses of printing, binding and publishing an Official Handbook for Saorstat Eireann to be borne by the Stationery Office on a repayment basis. The Department of Agriculture provides £1,680 for the actual costs of printing, through the Stationery Office, a Register of Dairy Cattle, the Journal of the Department, etc., etc. Services on repayment also continue to be borne on behalf of the Currency Commission, Agricultural Credit Corporation, Electricity Supply Board, etc., etc.

Reference has previously been made to the sub-heads GG. and HH., these being recent additions to Stationery Office activities. The former was introduced to provide for the reprinting of certain Irish texts which were deemed to be invaluable to advanced students of the language and which but for State assistance could not be made available for students. Three texts are now in course of production and will, it is hoped, be on sale by the early autumn. The Committee set up for the purpose have, it is understood, other books under consideration.

It was the original intention that the sum provided under sub-head HH. should be devoted to subsidizing those weekly journals, etc., which, owing to financial difficulties, were finding themselves unable to continue in publication, or had actually ceased publication. To bridge the difference between the expenses of publication and the revenues from sales and advertisements does not entail a heavy charge on public funds in any individual case and the assistance given towards the costs of printing has enabled the recipients of subsidies not only to continue their useful work, but has helped them to produce their publications on more ambitious lines. Four journals, one a quarterly, are now receiving assistance and subsidies have also been given to two provincial papers circulating in the Gaeltacht which have undertaken the work of publishing news matter and items of topical interest in Irish, the subsidies taking the form of payments for all such matter within defined limits in excess of the average of Irish appearing in their columns before the question of a subsidy arose. The claims of other journals are being considered.

Small decreases are anticipated on paper (sub-head J.), miscellaneous office supplies (sub-head K.) and binding (sub-head L.). In the case of sub-head K., a sum less by £600 than the amount provided for the year 1930-31 is deemed sufficient having regard to probable savings on purchases of office machinery.

Although an increase is expected from several items of Appropriations-in-Aid there is necessarily a big decline in the receipts expected from local authorities for registration purposes, as this figure is dependent on the printing costs of the registers, etc. (sub-head H.) in respect of which a considerable reduction in expenditure is anticipated. A decrease in the commission on supplies to repaying departments is also probable as the printing for the larger repayment services, the cost of which is charged to a suspense account, is now largely executed at reprint rates.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the House what are the reasons which moved his Department to open a sales office in Nassau Street. I was under the impression that the sale of Government publications was being dealt with in a very efficient and economic manner by one or more of the ordinary news agencies and booksellers in the city. I think, if I am not mistaken, that the salaries of the staff employed in the sales office will amount to £687. In addition to that, I presume there will be the rental of the premises, light, rates and other incidental expenses, amounting, I suppose, if one may make a rough shot at it, to at least another thousand pounds. It is going to be very difficult to make a profit on that amount out of the sales of Government publications in the city. In respect of the Stationery Office publications and Parliamentary papers, including the Dáil and Seanad, the Appropriations-in-Aid, which it is estimated will come in during the year, amount only to £2,750. If we turn to the various items for printing, we will have no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that the cost of printing these publications will be very much more than the revenue from their sales will bring. Apart altogether from the loss which clearly would arise in the sale of Government publications, we shall have this additional loss of £1,600 per annum. I see that last year the total amount of premiums received for the agency of Government publications amounted to £270.

Apparently, according to the policy of the Stationery Office, we are going to lose that premium of £270 in order to spend a sum of £1,600. I think the Parliamentary Secretary ought to justify to the House and state in full the reasons which have compelled him or the Stationery Office to embark on this new venture.

In relation to sub-head (J) under which £27,000 is to be voted for paper for printing and for official correspondence, telegraph envelopes, wrapping, household and miscellaneous paper, I wonder what portion of that sum is represented by paper of Irish manufacture? We know the precarious condition to which the Irish paper-making industry has been reduced and, apparently, there is here at any rate a fairly substantial market for some portion of the output. I take it that this paper is all more or less of a uniform nature. Wrapping paper is standardised and for that reason I would be glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that the greater portion of this is represented by paper of Irish manufacture. If it is not I think that the action of the Tariff Commission in turning down the application for a tariff on paper is less justifiable than I thought it was. Under sub-head (H) there is a sum of £17,800 to be voted under No. 12 of 1923, No. 7. of 1924, and No. 23 of 1927. I presume that this relates to Acts of the Oireachtas. They must be Acts of very vital importance when they have to be reprinted at a cost of £17,800.

Mr. Bourke

These are Electors and Jurors Lists and Registers, and they are printed in accordance with the provisions of the three Acts the Deputy has mentioned.

These are the authorising Acts. I understand now. Under Sub-head (G) the printing and binding for the "Iris Oifigiúil" is £15,315 and there is £135 for the paper. The Parliamentary Secretary has, I think, already explained that this expenditure arises out of the recent Land Acts. Of course we have not any criticism to offer against the Stationery Office because the Land Commission has been compelled by the action of Deputy Derrig and those associated with him on these benches to realise that after all there was an expeditious way in which the tenant might get the benefits of vesting, even if the vesting had not been completed. There is nothing else I have to say except again to press the Parliamentary Secretary to put before the House the reasons for the establishment of a sales office in Nassau Street.

With regard to the item of "Supplies to Repaying Departments" in the list of Appropriations-in-Aid, would the Parliamentary Secretary say in what way is that business arranged? Does the Stationery Office offer to get the printing done for these Departments and to supply their stationery from the Stationery Office, or do these Departments make application to share in the advantages of bulk purchasing? Further, is there a limit to the Departments that may be embraced in this way? Is there anything of that kind done for local authorities, for instance; and, if not, what is the distinction between a Department such as the Electricity Supply Board or the Agricultural Credit Corporation, and the Dublin Corporation? Why is one of these classed as a semi-State Department, though it is intended to be financially independent and managed independently of the Government, while the other is not regarded as having any relation to the State, though it is maintained entirely out of taxes, and directly controlled by a Minister? I would like if the Parliamentary Secretary would explain that.

There are a couple of points on which I want to get information. Would the Parliamentary Secretary say on what basis the price of Government publications is fixed? I had occasion to purchase the railway returns recently issued. I found that the price had gone up to 5s. On previous occasions we were able to get them for 1s. or 1s. 6d. Then the price went up to 10s., it afterwards came down to 1s., and now it is up to 5s. The same class of return is issued each year, and I would like to have some explanation as to the price charged. Similarly, in regard to returns published annually, relating to insurance companies. At one time they could be purchased for 1s. or 1s. 6d. Now they are 10s. It seems to me there should be no difficulty in stabilising the price of these publications. Apparently, the person responsible thinks of a figure, doubles it and then takes the first figure that comes into his head, and sticks it down as the price.

These are annual publications and contain much the same kind of information each year, yet the price of them fluctuates in a most erratic manner. I would be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us the reason for that. Would he also tell the House what is the difficulty in the matter of having the Official Reports of the Dáil debates published earlier than they are? They do not appear until the Wednesday in the week following that to which the debates refer. Would it not be possible to have these reports published on the Monday or Tuesday? It would be a great convenience to Deputies if that were done. Very frequently debates are carried over from one week to another, and for one reason or another a Deputy may wish to refer to something in the Official Report before the meeting of the Dáil on Wednesday. If the report reached him on a Tuesday morning he would have an opportunity of doing that. The fact that the reports do not reach him until Wednesday is in many cases a handicap. Under the old arrangement when the Dáil debates were published in a daily issue it was possible to get the report of Wednesday's debates on the following Friday morning. At present the weekly reports containing the debates of the previous Friday do not reach Deputies until Wednesday in the following week. Surely it should be possible to have these weekly reports in the hands of Deputies not later than the Tuesday morning of the following week.

I should also like to have some information as to the basis on which grants are given to newspapers for the publication of current news in Irish. I put a question to the Minister for Finance some days ago and received certain information in reply, but I want to get more information. I would like to know if the officials of the Department read the issues of all the local papers published in or near the Gaeltacht and award a grant each week on the basis of the amount of Irish news they contain, or must the newspaper make application in order to get a grant? If a paper makes application and is awarded a grant, is that grant continued week after week, or do the officials of the Department read each issue of the paper and measure the news items printed in Irish each week? Is the amount of the grant each week calculated on the basis of the amount of news printed? How far is it intended to push that scheme?

As far as I know a grant has only been made to two papers, and these are published in the constituency of the Minister for Agriculture. I want to know how long these papers have been getting the grant. I understand that the minimum amount of Irish which must be printed each week is three columns. I examined recent issues of these papers and could not find three columns of news in Irish in them. Is the grant made irrespective of the amount of Irish printed each week? When did the grant start to operate in relation to that particular journal? Have the political opinions of a newspaper anything to do with the grant? Has application been made by any newspaper and refused for any reason? Is the grant conditional on the matter printed in Irish being live news or can anything be printed?

I notice that the Galway "Tribune" makes it a practice on occasions to print a quarter of a column in Irish with a translation in English underneath. Is the Parliamentary Secretary of opinion that that sort of thing is going to help to spread the Irish language? I may say, too, that in all cases the cross headings are printed in English. I think that we should have more information on the matter. I would like to know if any other newspapers have applied for the grant since an answer was given to me a fortnight ago by the Minister for Finance, and, if so, to what papers? Is it intended that there should be any limit to the grant given to any particular paper? Will it be on the basis of 30s. per column even if the whole issue of the newspaper is printed in Irish? Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give me some information on the matter. He did make some reference to it in his opening statement, but I did not catch what he said. I hope he has taken a note of my questions.

I would like some information on a point that is causing some concern to a section of the community. Would the Parliamentary Secretary say why it is that the notes issued by the Currency Commission are not printed in this country? I know that in the old days the Bank of Ireland had its own printing office and printed its own notes. Now I understand that the notes issued by the Currency Commission are printed in London. In view of the fact that facilities are available I do not see why the printing of these notes should be sent abroad.

Mr. Bourke

With regard to Deputy MacEntee's question about the Sales Office, our motive in setting it up was one of economy. We believe that we will save more than we will lose. Naturally the first year's expenses of setting up this office and staffing it may seem out of proportion. We feel that as we go along we will save very much more by dealing directly with the public than by dealing through intermediaries and have to pay large discounts. As regards Sub-head J, I could not say exactly what proportion of the paper is of Irish manufacture. A considerable amount of the paper is of Irish manufacture, and we use Irish-manufactured paper wherever possible. There are many kinds of paper not manufactured in this country, and in these cases we have to get English paper, but wherever it is possible to get paper made in Ireland we use it. With regard to Sub-head H, the printing of the local registers and jurors' lists, we do that work for local authorities. We print local electors' lists and lists of voters for the Dáil, and also the jurors' lists. We do work for the Electricity Supply Board and the Agricultural Credit Corporation and various bodies because they are semi-governmental institutions.

Do I understand that any local authority can get printing done through the Stationery Office?

Mr. Bourke

No, but we do that work and print the registers for them.

I would like to know what principle determines it. Does the Stationery Office look for this business from certain Departments connected with the State, or do these Departments apply to share in the advantages of bulk purchases of stationery and bulk printing by large contracts?

Mr. Bourke

We simply undertake to do the work.

Is it on your initiative the business is arranged?

Mr. Bourke

I expect it is.

At the same time you do not allow local authorities to share in the privilege?

Mr. Bourke

They never put it up as far as I know.

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that it was on his initiative the business was arranged.

Mr. Bourke

When a new body comes into existence like the Agricultural Credit Corporation it is on a different footing from bodies that were there before the Dáil came into being at all. With regard to the prices of publications, I did not know that they varied so much, but the price depends, to a great extent, on the demand.

Who regulates the price?

Mr. Bourke

The Controller of the Stationery Office.

Why should the prices vary?

Mr. Bourke

According to the demand. As far as possible the office has to see that the price got for books and documents pays expenses.

Did he regulate the price of publications under the old regime, and before the new branch was opened?

Mr. Bourke

Yes.

He always regulated the selling price?

Mr. Bourke

Yes. As regards the Official Reports, I will take the point mentioned by Deputy Lemass into consideration and see if we can speed up publication. I think the reason that there is more delay in bringing them out now than previously is that they were more or less trial publications before and not finally passed as correct. The old arrangement provided for a kind of proof copy, but at present it is final and we have to take greater care in bringing them out. I will see if anything can be done to speed up publication, as I realise that that would be a great advantage to Deputies. With regard to the basis upon which contributions are paid to local newspapers, they are paid on the amount of news they publish in Irish now as compared with the time the grant was first given. I do not know exactly whether a check is kept week by week or month by month. I know that they are closely watched. I am sure of one thing, and that is that the subsidies are not given on political grounds.

Must a local paper apply for a grant in order to get it?

Mr. Bourke

Yes. With regard to Deputy Anthony's question, that does not affect the Stationery Office. We do not print currency notes and we have nothing to do with them.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary state if any local newspaper has applied for the grant and has been refused?

Mr. Bourke

I do not think so.

Did I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to say that if the new sales office continues to make a loss it is the intention to maintain it?

Mr. Bourke

It depends on how much the loss is. If the loss is less than what we have to pay in discounts then we will continue it.

They have been receiving £270 as agency premiums. If they had not opened the sales office they would continue to receive that sum. While losing that they are going to pay £687 in salaries, plus rental and other incidental expenses of the office. Therefore, I think it is very difficult to justify the opening of the office, and I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary has attempted to do so. They receive, apparently, £270 as Appropriations-in-Aid from agencies for the sale of Government publications. They get a certain profit on them, and that is the profit the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to reserve for himself by opening this office.

Mr. Bourke

I cannot give those figures now. I can get them later.

Vote put and agreed to.
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