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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Nov 1931

Vol. 40 No. 12

Finance (Increase of Income Tax) Bill 1931—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Before we pass this Bill I would like to make a few observations. I want for my own information, for the information of the House, and for the information of the public who are interested in the matter, to know what is going to happen in connection with the collection of income tax this year. It will be in the recollection of those who did me the honour to listen to me the other day that I drew attention to certain peculiar hardships in the collection of income tax which seemed likely to arise in this particular year. I raised two distinct points with only one of which the Minister dealt yesterday. I want to be quite clear about what is going to happen. I want the Minister to correct me if I am wrong. As I understand, the point arises in respect of assessments of British and foreign investments. I understand I was right in assuming that under the provisions of Section 11 of the Act of 1929 the assessment will be made on the basis of the preceding year. I am now dealing with my first point which arose where investments were transferred from British to Saorstát Eireann securities. In that case, as I understood from what the Minister said yesterday, the assessment will still be made on the basis of the preceding year, and relief will subsequently be given as a matter of course, and as a matter of right, on application to the Revenue Commissioners.

If that is so, I have nothing further to say about it, but I want to appeal to him to consider the other point to which he did not refer. It has nothing to do with the exchange of investments, but has to do with the falling off of the proceeds of British or foreign investments this year, as compared with the preceding year. Let us take an example. Assuming that a man last year received £100 from British investments and that this year these same investments only bring in £30. That is not an exaggerated proportion when we remember that many companies have either passed their dividends altogether or reduced them, and many have not even been able to pay anything on their preference capital. Obviously that is likely to create very considerable hardship. Had this occurred last year there would have been a certain measure of relief because, under Section 4 of the Finance Act of last year, where such income was less by more than 20 per cent. than it was in the preceding year, certain reliefs were available. That provision is not found either in the present Finance Bill or in the earlier Finance Bill of this year. Consequently whether people are aware of it or not, the inspectors will have no option but to assess the taxpayer in the case I have taken on 70 per cent. more than he actually received. I know the answer is that if it had gone the other way, and that if a taxpayer in a particular year got £100 where he previously got £30, he would be assessed on £30. Therefore he must take the rough with the smooth, taking one year with another, what he lost in the roundabouts he would gain on the swings. In normal times that would be a perfectly fair answer and I would have no quarrel with it. In a general way the change that was made in 1909 was for the general convenience and advantage of everyone concerned. I impress upon the Minister in the peculiar circumstances of this year, and in view of the notorious fact that people's incomes are seriously affected by the general trade slump which has taken place, that he might take an opportunity of re-introducing the mitigating clause which was contained in the Act of last year, so that some measure of relief will be available for people whose incomes this year are being very seriously affected.

I do not intend to say very much on this Bill except to address myself to a few personal remarks which the Minister for Industry and Commerce made on this day week. I am sorry the Minister is not here. The Minister was not here when I was speaking on the Financial Resolution. Quite obviously he was not aware of the trend of my remarks or of the trend of the remarks of the Minister for Finance. One of the statements made by the Minister for Finance was that the reason why the Currency Commission, presumably with the acquiescence of the Government, had decided to remain on the gold standard, was that if they had an independent currency in this country certain difficulties would be set up in the way of trade between ourselves and Great Britain. What I had in mind to say was—and I admit that my remarks as reported are not as clear and as lucid as they might have been, as I was speaking extempore—that, as the balance of trade was against us, naturally greater difficulties would arise in the case of those goods which were imported as compared with the goods which were exported. Naturally if we import approximately £12,000,000 worth of goods more than we export, any handicap which the ordinary operations of arbitrage might create for traders in that matter would react most heavily upon the trader who was selling most. As Great Britain sells more to us than we do to her, naturally if there were independent currencies the very fact that these difficulties would arise would tend to restrict the excessive import of goods into the Twenty-Six Counties. It will be quite clear that that is what I had in mind, if my speech is read and if the speech of the Minister for Finance is read.

I do not really make this statement because of anything that the Minister for Industry and Commerce said in regard to any theories which I put forward in this House. So far as his interventions in debates here are concerned, marked as they always are with the element of bitter personality, they have about as much effect here and in the country as those unpleasant little insects which sometimes inflict themselves even upon the most cleanly persons in public places. His remarks are generally highly coloured and slightly venomous but have little lasting effect. So far as the flea-bite dialectics of the Minister for Industry and Commerce are concerned, I have only to say that he of all others should not talk about the Midas touch.

The Deputy is getting away from the Bill.

I am dealing with the Minister's speech.

It was not made on the Fifth Stage of an Income Tax Bill.

It was made at the opening of this debate on the Supplementary Budget. It dealt with a Constituent Assembly, Article 11 of the Constitution, Deputy Lemass as Minister for Defence, raids on Mountjoy for prisoners, the personal characteristics of Deputy Davin, Deputy Lemass and myself. In the whole course of his speech he did not address himself for one instant to the proposals for increased taxation then before the House.

And he was not called to order.

He, of all persons, should not have the hardihood to refer to Midas in this matter, because whatever other faculties posterity, if it remembers him, will ascribe to him, it certainly will not say he had the faculty of turning everything he touched into gold. He had the idea once of converting the waters of the Shannon into another Pactolus. He got his new toy and with the usual petty personality, like the small boy he is, when he got the new toy he had, on account of a certain petty spleen, to set himself to break it. The country can judge the Minister, this wagerer of lost reputations, by the critical position to which he has brought the Shannon Scheme, in which such a large amount of the country's resources have been invested, and on which so large an amount of public hope was founded.

Leaving the Minister for Industry and Commerce to one side, I still contend that if the Minister for Industry and Commerce was aware of the trend of trade between us and Great Britain, particularly during the last four months, he would not even have attempted to make the misrepresentation that he made of my speech. Because even if we had set up an independent currency, and if we tried to remain, so far as we were able, on the gold standard, nevertheless the tendency of trade between us and Great Britain during the past three months would have been such that we would have to take steps to restrict the quantity of imports, particularly the quantity of luxury imports.

The important point about it is that if we had had an independent currency the people would have been able to see the danger signal, and would have been able to see the danger from the moment we had the prescience to cut ourselves adrift from the currency of Great Britain. The fact of the matter is, as a study of the figures will indicate, that for a considerable period of years we have not been paying our way in our trade relationships with Great Britain, that we have been living upon our capital, and that a good deal of the excess imports, which have been the characteristic feature of our trade returns from year to year, have been paid for by the realisation of investments abroad and by the sale of industries at home. That is why the British millers were able to come here and buy the biggest flour mills in the country. That is why one by one, industries like our tobacco industry and others, have passed into the hands of and are now under the control of foreigners.

One of the greatest disadvantages which the policy of the Government has placed this country under, is that it has no economic barometer. It has nothing which will indicate the economic position of our people vis-a-vis Great Britain and other countries. I do not regard the rate of exchange as being a trade regulator. In view of the developments in currency management, and in view of the interferences which have taken place in all countries with the free operation of gold exchange, I do not think that the rate of exchange can any longer serve as a regulator. It does serve as an indicator and as an instrument which will show the economic trend. If we had had such an indicator here, I believe the fact that our currency would tend always, in view of our excessive imports, to stand at a discount as compared with sterling, would compel the Government, in spite of themselves, and in spite of the considerable body of importers in the country who support them, to take steps to protect our native industry, and to restrict the flow of imports into this country. In particular, it would have compelled them to take very drastic measures during the past four or five months to do that.

I would ask any Deputy who is concerned in the question, to refer to the trade returns for July, August and September of this year. For the month of July the adverse trade balance was £1,616,000; in August it was £410,000 and in September £971,000, giving a total of £2,992,000 for the three months. In every month there has been a tremendous decline in the amount of goods exported by us. There has been a very large increase in the adverse trade balance for the past three months. The Government remained inactive, but I do not believe that if we had had an independent currency the people would have permitted them to remain inactive, because then the people would have seen whether they were going and what was going to be the inevitable consequence of the Government's policy. If we had an independent currency in September when Great Britain went off the gold standard, there would have been possibly a relative improvement in our position vis-a-vis British currency, but, nevertheless, on these figures, unless something drastic had been done, our currency would tend to be at a discount as compared with sterling.

If we wanted to protect our gold reserve—most countries want to protect it, and make no mistake about it no country has willingly gone off the gold standard, no country that values its reputation, no country that is a buyer in foreign markets and that has to carry on a foreign trade went willingly off the gold standard—if we wanted to protect our gold reserves— and we should have—if we wanted to be honest people buying no more than could be paid for, and were anxious to safeguard the interests of the community, then we would have been compelled either to stop the export of gold to meet the balance which would be required to meet the adverse trade balance or we would have been compelled to stop the import of foreign manufactures. That is precisely the position which would have existed here. It is the position which I had in mind and which I wished to indicate to the House when speaking extempore on Friday last. It is clear from the tenour of my remarks that I had two things in mind: First of all that the arbitrage difficulties created would be in favour of our people, taking the community as a whole; and in so far as they would tend to put difficulties in the way of excessive imports, then to the extent that these excessive imports were imports of manufactured commodities, they would tend to help our home manufacturers.

Secondly, taking into consideration the Ministry that we have now, and would have had then, even if we had gone off the gold standard, then by reason of the fact that we have in power a Government whose dominating principle is the principle of inertia, of being unable to do anything unless they are driven to do it, we would still have between ourselves and Great Britain a depreciated currency, a currency which would have to be maintained, if not by exporting our gold, then by restricting our imports of manufactures.

With reference to Deputy Law's point, the position in regard to change of investments is as I indicated. The Deputy, I think, clearly understands that there will be no double charge on any income. If the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that there is in any case, as a result of a change of investments, a double charge under any of the existing provisions relief will be given. Of course, the Deputy understands that they have to be satisfied that there has been a change of investments and that the facts are as stated in the case. If they are so satisfied relief will be given.

With regard to the other point that the Deputy raised on the question of charging on the basis of the preceding year, nothing can be done on that. As a result of frequent representations we decided to adopt the basis of the preceding year in 1929. For the first year, certain relief was given to cover any transitional hardships that might arise, but it was not contemplated that we should in effect lower the tax by continuing to give relief in the case of a falling income. The position is, as the Deputy put it, that people have got to take the rough with the smooth. As regards all incomes, which were formerly assessed on the basis of three years' average and these formed a great part of the income that was liable to tax, the factor which the Deputy referred to always existed. It frequently happened in the old days that a business which made no profit at all was liable to income tax because in the two years previous there had been perhaps good profits made. Unless we were to have all incomes charged on the basis of the actual year of assessment which would, of course, present great difficulties and tremendous financial complications, we must really to some extent ignore these hardships. They are something inevitable in the working of this scheme. There is no provision in the Act. That is intentional and it would not be possible to put any provisions in now even if we were desirous of doing so, because that would again cause delays and would tend to defeat the purpose of the Bill which is to go some distance towards closing the gap that has appeared in the Budget.

With reference to Deputy MacEntee's statement, I think the real fact is the Deputy is so anxious to prove that the Government is wrong and neglectful that he did not mind his step and that, as on another stage of the Bill, he talked about the matter without having given thought to it and he walked into a somewhat obvious blunder. I do not know that the Deputy yet has thought over the matter to any great extent, that he has done more than to try to find something that he might advance with some appearance of plausibility against the policy of the Government. The Deputy should have seen that even the statement he made this morning will not bear any examination, that if we have any adverse balance of trade taking all the factors into account, the invisible as well as the visible factors, certainly the amount, if we could calculate all these factors, does not seem to be very considerable.

The position is that whatever adverse balance, if any there is, is being paid for by the realisation of capital and none of the checks, the safeguards or the indicator instruments that the Deputy refers to, would operate to any extent so long as there is a big invested capital abroad which can be realised. That is really the governing factor in this position, that there is a huge Saorstát investment abroad. If there was a very much larger adverse trade balance than there is any reason to think of, none of these barometers, indicators or checks would operate appreciably because any currency difficulty that might arise could be overcome by the realisation of some fraction of this vast investment of capital abroad. The currency difficulties, such as the Deputy indicates, would only arise where a country has not these investments abroad, where if there is an adverse balance of trade, there is an immediate strain on the currency which cannot be met in any other way than by the immediate creation of a serious difference in the rate of exchange. The Deputy seems still to think that there would be some advantage in our remaining on the gold standard when our next door neighbour with whom our trade principally exists, had gone off it. I notice that he indicates that if we had a store of gold here, and if a certain situation arose, we would have to stop exporting gold, that is, we would have to go off the gold standard.

I would like to correct the Minister in that statement. I am not saying that we should always remain on the gold standard, but I say that we should have a currency which would be independent of Great Britain.

The Deputy said that we should have an independent currency simply for the purpose of being able to do by some definite act here, what has been done automatically. I do not want to go into this thing. It is really very far from the immediate subject matter of the Bill. The Deputy, as I say, has walked into a blunder and has been simply anxious to prove that the policy which has been carried out is harmful to the country, that, in fact, any other policy would have a great many advantages. He has had to alter his remarks this morning or mend them in some way. I just want to say that the remarks he has made this morning will bear no further examination. None of the advantages, which he indicates would arise from a separate currency, could, in fact, arise in our situation here. The disadvantage of a separate currency, provided there was no big difference in the rate of exchange would be trifling. If parity or something close to it remained, the disadvantages would be trifling. If there came about a wide difference in the rate of exchange the disadvantages and confusion would be very considerable.

I looked over the Deputy's speech on the first occasion in which he stated that if we had remained on the gold standard and the British had gone off it, that would have the effect of creating a barrier against British goods here. He did not specifically deal with that point this morning, but it is quite obvious that the opposite would be the effect, that it would encourage an in-flow of British goods here, and that it would put a barrier against the export of our goods to Britain. As I say, I think the Deputy walked into that obvious blunder because instead of considering these questions—and all these are very difficult questions about which it is not easy to get absolutely reliable advice and about which it is not easy to avoid falling into mistakes—the Deputy did not take even the most elementary precautions against falling into blunders, but simply decided that this is the sort of matter in which it will do to say anything provided it means to be reflection on the Government.

Let me quote exactly what I did state on last Friday:—

Undoubtedly I think that if we had gone off the gold standard there would have been set up a rate of exchange between this country and Great Britain, one of the effects of which would have been to impose a tariff on imports and to have given our manufacturers a chance.

I did not insert the word "adverse" before "rate of exchange." My speech has been directed this morning to show that in the circumstances which immediately existed in September, even if we had an independent currency and if we had gone off the gold standard simultaneously, as we should have been compelled to do at that moment, we would have had a serious adverse trade balance for the month. I do not think, if the Minister reads my words, they will bear the construction he puts on them. Undoubtedly, I was rather loose in my statements, they were not as precise as they should have been on that occasion, but the Minister will have to remember his action in springing a Supplementary Budget on us without any notice, so that, without any materials at our disposal, we had to pronounce on these proposals immediately.

Question put: "That the Bill do now pass."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 35.

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Wolfe, George.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen Denis.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Mullins, Thomas.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.

This Bill is a Money Bill for the purposes of Article 35 of the Constitution.

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