Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Jun 1933

Vol. 47 No. 18

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £24,364 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Dlí agus Cirt.

That a sum not exceeding £24,364 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Last night when this debate was adjourned I was dealing with the brave efforts which were being made by the Minister for Justice completely to neutralise the effect of the "cuts" which the Minister for Finance was imposing upon the Guards. I pointed out that as far as these efforts of the Minister were confined to raising the salaries of various officers and thereby neutralising the cut to them, I was entirely in favour of the attitude he was taking up. But so far as the expenditure which he had decided to embark upon consists of the wanton and unreasonable changing of officers from post to post at the public expense, although he may succeed in neutralising the cuts that the Minister for Finance was introducing, still he is doing so at very great inconvenience to the members of the Gárdaí, and, at the same time at considerable loss of efficiency to the Force. On that question of cuts, I should like to hear something from the Minister as to how he, a member of the Executive Council, can now justify the action of the Executive in deliberately swindling, not merely the members of the Guards, but other services out of the moneys they have earned.

The Guards are entitled to be paid at a certain rate, and civil servants and others who serve under the Minister for Justice have a right to be paid at a certain rate. Take, for example, the case of the Guards. There are certain regulations which must be complied with before a single penny could be taken off the pay of the Guards, but we find without any cause or justification, or without any excuse in law, and in the very teeth of the doctrines of simple morality, pay is now being deducted from the Guards and from other officials—money which is theirs; money which they have earned, and money which even to this day they are earning and to which in law they are entitled and to which, in morality, they have got an unanswerable case, money is being deducted day by day, week by week, from their pay and from their salary.

Mr. Corry

On a point of order, sir, is Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney in order in alluding to a Minister here as deliberately swindling?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I say, the policy of the Executive Council.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the point of order. The Deputy has described the policy of the Executive Council as a swindle. That is a political, not a personal, charge.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I say—and I say it very deliberately—that the taking away of money from persons who have earned that money is a swindle. I should like to know how the Minister for Justice is going to justify in this House this entirely illegal stoppage of pay from the Guards. It is done in the teeth of the existing law and the excuse which the Minister gave the other day, for this illegal—and I again characterise it as immoral—conduct, was that an Act of Indemnity will be passed; but an Act of Indemnity simply takes away the remedy which persons, who have been wronged, have. No Act of Indemnity, nor any Act passed by this House, can turn black into white or turn injustice into justice. No Act passed by this House can justify the defrauding of labourers of the wages they have earned. That is the attitude which I should like to have explained, and that is the course of conduct for which I should like an excuse to be put before this House by the Minister for Justice.

So much on this question of "cuts." Apart from that, I should like, looking at this Gárda estimate, to point out some very curious things in it. I find, for example, that in the year 1931-32 the number of Guards was 5,443. I find that in this year's estimate—1933— the number of Guards is 5,643. In other words, the House is estimating this year for 200 more Guards than we estimated for in the year 1931-32. Now, I am very glad that, in some respects, since the Minister for Justice has got into office, he has improved and that he has learned a little and got a little bit more in touch with the realities of government in this country. I remember, when the now Minister for Justice sat on these benches, how he used to talk about the very excessive number of the Guards we have in this country and how he used to say that the country could be policed by 2,000 less Guards than there were at the time and that it still could be policed effectively. We heard all that nonsense poured out by the present Minister for Justice and poured out by various other members of his Party in this Dáil. We heard it year after year and we heard it ad nausea. But now I notice that, after learning the circumstances and after seeing how the country can be policed this year, the Minister for Justice is estimating for the same number of sergeants and for 200 more Guards than there were in the country two years ago.

That brings me to another question. The Minister for Finance stated in the House the other day that there had been no recruiting for the last fifteen months. I wonder if that is so. I wonder if the Minister has been correctly informed. I would be very anxious to hear from the Minister for Justice as to whether recruiting has been going on or, if it has not been going on, when he intends to recruit the very large number he will require to keep up the number of Guards to the number which he has estimated for here. There is always wastage in the Guards. There must be always a certain falling off in numbers in each year. Men die; men resign for some reason or other; men are dismissed; and we know that, during the last fifteen months, at any rate, some Guards were dismissed, because we have not forgotten the scandalous finding of the Kilrush Tribunal and the unjust way in which three men were dismissed from the Gárda force.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate that on this year's estimate.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I do not intend to debate it this year and only mentioned it to show that there were, at any rate, three dismissals from the Guards during the current year. Then again, as I say, we know that there were deaths, and I am perfectly certain that there must have been some resignations. The normal wastage in the Guards in a normal year used to be at the rate of something like 200 a year. In consequence, unless recruiting has been going on, as the Minister for Finance says it has not been going on, or unless it is the intention to bring in a very large draft of recruits immediately—because this is an estimate for the whole year and we are now in the month of June —unless it is the intention to bring in a very large number of recruits, then, this is obviously a completely misleading estimate which is being put before the House by the Minister. Exactly the same number of Guards is estimated for that was estimated for last year and 200 more than the year before last. There must have been wastage and, if there is to be the same number in the Guards, then it is perfectly obvious that the Minister either has been recruiting or intends to recruit and that the policy of his predecessor in title, that the Guards were to be reduced in numbers, has been completely and entirely abandoned.

But when a policy is mentioned by a member of the Executive Council in this House and that policy is abandoned, as obviously and plainly it has been abandoned unless this estimate is a document deliberately put forward to deceive—which, of course, I do not suggest for one moment—but when it has been abandoned, then, we ought to have been told and the country ought to have been told in a matter of such vital importance to the country—and everything connected with the administration of the Gárda Síochána is a matter of vital importance to the country—then, as I say, the country certainly should have been told of this change of policy on the part of the Government.

Leaving aside for a moment the question of recruiting, I would like to turn to another sphere in which the Minister for Justice has very recently shown activity. I would like to have from him some explanation of the extraordinary performance we had in appointing a Committee of Reference for the Sweepstakes after a Bill had been brought into the House to abolish the Committee of Reference. The law was that a Committee of Reference had to be appointed forthwith whenever a scheme was sanctioned. The Minister's predecessor and the Minister himself did not sanction a committee forthwith; they did not discharge their statutory duty. They sanctioned schemes and they did not carry out their statutory duty of appointing a Committee of Reference. Since the Bill was introduced to sweep away the Committee of Reference the Minister for Justice proceeded to appoint three gentlemen to a Committee of Reference. The Minister is the person who is entirely reponsible. The Minister for Finance in consultation with the Minister proceeded to appoint three gentlemen to do absolutely no work and they are to get a nice present for their services, one of them £1,000 and the other two £800 each. Why did that take place? It was not to carry out a statutory obligation. The Minister suddenly discovers that the Minister for Local Government is introducing a Bill to do away with the Committee of Reference and he then proceeds to appoint three gentlemen who are to draw good pay and do no work because, long before they could get to work, the Bill abolishing their office will become law. He gives these men a free gift of these big sums of money and, in my opinion, that is a matter on which the House and the country are anxious to have an explanation.

I now turn to what is really the most serious matter which can be discussed upon this Vote, and that is the way in which the Minister for Justice is discharging the duty imposed upon him of seeing that the law is obeyed in this State, that it is openly flouted by nobody, that it is obeyed by all. That is a duty which the Minister for Justice is shirking at the present moment. We know that there are illegal associations in this country, the I.R.A. principally, whose activities call for attention. The I.R.A. is an association which has for its aim the overthrow, not by constitutional agitation, but by force of arms, of the Constitution of the existing State here. That body has been put by the Minister above the law. The law says they shall not drill, they shall not be armed; but they drill, they arm, and they recruit as much as ever they like and there is no check or hindrance. We had a very significant thing some time ago. A firing party of these gentlemen fired over the grave at a funeral in Tipperary. I put some queries to the Minister here and I was told that the Guards were not there. I pressed the matter. I had to put down the same question three or four times until I finally wrung an answer from the Minister to the effect that the Guards could not ascertain who did the firing. That is a very strange state of affairs. Either the Guards have suddenly lost their efficiency— which I hesitate to believe—or else directly, or indirectly, whether by open order or by covert hint, it must have been conveyed to the Guards that they are to make no effort to bring I.R.A. men who break the law in that fashion to justice.

That body is recruiting all over the country. We see examples again and again of how much the heads of the Catholic Church are alarmed by the spread of this body. Repeatedly you see the bishops, who are the responsible heads here of the Catholic Church, denouncing the I.R.A. and urging young men not to become members of the association. They have been explaining to them how that association is condemned by the Church, and yet you find all over the country recruiting for that organisation, which is not only condemned by the Church, but was rendered illegal by the law of this land. You find all over the State recruiting posters put up, saying: "Join the I.R.A." tarred up. a sort of answer to the bishops to have on a convent wall in County Mayo the These gentlemen are entitled to do precisely what they like, to drill as much as they like, and the Minister for Justice will not face them. It may be that the fault does not lie completely and entirely in the Minister. It may be that the Minister might be able, if left to himself, to screw his courage to the sticking point and face them. It may be, on the other hand, that the Fianna Fáil Party is so impregnated with I.R.A. doctrines—that there are so many members of the Party either members of the I.R.A. or else closely in association with the I.R.A.—that the Minister for Justice cannot trust in the support of his own Party if he discharges the duty which is upon him and sees that that body observes the law. For all I know, that body may have got a footing in the Executive Council itself.

The Minister may have difficulties, but I say that whatever difficulties he has, he has also got a duty to the people of this country and a duty to the State. He holds a high office, and, holding a high office, he has a very heavy responsibility placed upon his shoulders. No matter what the difficulties may be, whether they come from inside his own Party or from inside the Executive Council itself, or whomever else they may come from, no difficulty will justify the Minister for Justice in allowing the law to be openly flouted as it is when an illegal and highly dangerous organisation recruits just as much as ever it wishes.

Mr. Anthony

On this Vote, sir, I wish to say a few words. I have never, since my entry into this House, shirked my duty to the people whom I represent, and because I feel that this is one of the most important Votes debated in the Dáil, I feel that it is up to me to declare the faith that is in me in relation to this Vote. We are supposed to have, we are alleged to have, or we have, a Minister for Justice in this State. The very title suggests that we have some person, some institution, in this State which stands between the plain, ordinary, common people of this country—Seán Citizen or John Citizen whichever you wish to call him—and the bully, the gunman, the robber or the thief. In the Ministry of Justice we have that institution. Let us examine for one or two moments how that Ministry is performing its duty even within the last twelve months.

We must first of all assume that the duty of a government is to govern. The late administration over which Deputy Cosgrave presided made itself most unpopular because of the fact that it did govern—at least it must be admitted that they attempted to govern. The ex-Minister for Justice carried out the mandate of his Government and attempted to govern. In many ways he succeeded. He succeeded in any case along a certain positive line of policy and he prevented, or was the means of preventing through the agency of those under him, a certain type of crime that I feel and every good citizen in this country feels would have been committed in this country were it not for the determination of that Government of which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was then a Minister. That Government made an attempt, at any rate, to put an end to the class of crime that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney now mentions.

Let us start off with this that it is the duty of a government to govern. I am to assume that the present Minister for Justice subscribes to that policy. I am also to assume that the Minister for Justice subscribes to that policy that in the Irish Free State, we must have only one army and one police force. I repeat only one army, and only one police force. I feel that the Minister must of necessity subcribe to that. But how has he carried it out? If he subscribes to that policy he must be aware—if he has received the usual police reports and we must assume that he has received them— that there is an amount of illegal drilling and organising of young people into bodies which have been condemned not alone by the ordinary plain John Citizen but have been condemned by the Church authorities.

I do not care to be introducing the names of bishops or clergymen of any denomination into the business at all. I deprecate the introduction into this question of the names of famous men and women who have suffered in the cause of Irish freedom. I do not like at any time to invoke the names of those people. But the Minister must recollect that amongst the first persons to suffer in the country at any time of revolution were the ordinary, plain people of the country. It is for the plain people of the country I speak at the moment. The Minister must be aware that these things to which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney alluded, and to which I allude now, are going on in the country. We must take it also, the Minister is aware of these facts and circumstances, and is either acquiescing in this practice, or that in the alternative, he is condoning this practice. He cannot have it both ways.

I want to ask the Minister when he is replying to give us some information as to the reports he has in his office. We would also like to know the value he attaches to those reports. Does he, on the other hand, receive police reports and does he, on the other hand, receive reports from the local Fianna Fáil organisation? To which report does he attach the most importance? These are the things which are agitating the minds of the ordinary, plain people. The Minister must be aware of this fact—that there is an amount of uneasiness in the country at the moment, because the Minister, in my view, and in the view of the ordinary, plain citizen, is not acting as he should and shouldering his full responsibilities as Minister of the Dáil. I look upon the office of the Minister for Justice as one of the most important, if not most important, office in the Administration.

As an ordinary, plain citizen it matters not to me whether the Minister has invoked the aid of this House to pass the most drastic kind of legislation. That does not matter to me or to the honest, plain citizen of the country. But it does matter to the footpad, it does matter to the garrotter and it does matter to the man who goes out with a gun to shoot somebody else. I want to have from the Minister some explanation. I should like to know from him: has he got from those persons who were openly drilling and arming with Lewis guns, machine guns, rifles and revolvers, what their purpose is? I should like to ask if he has got from them the names of those whom they are going to fight? These are the things I should like the Minister to answer. The people I represent are honest, plain citizens—the people of the City of Cork. We do not want another army in this country, we are satisfied with one army, which is controlled by the Ministers on the Government Benches. We are satisfied with that army because we are law-abiding and honest citizens. We are quite satisfied with it. One army satisfies us.

You have a Minister for Defence. I am in Opposition and I recognise him as Minister for Defence. Though in Opposition to this Government, I am independent, I repeat that I am independent, for whenever I find that the Government are passing legislation in accordance with my convictions I vote for them. That cannot be denied. But I want a clear, definite policy from the Minister. Does he stand for one army only and for one police force only? Will he introduce legislation into this House, if he believes in only one army, to put down all other armies and to put down all those who have lethal weapons in their hands and to take them from them? That is what the country is waiting for. If the Minister introduce a Public Safety Act on the lines of the Public Safety Act that was introduced here——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that it is not permissible to advocate legislation in the debates on the Estimates.

Mr. Anthony

Will all respect, sir, I am not advocating it—I said "if." I used the potential mood—if the Minister requires that kind of legislation he will have no more loyal supporter than myself.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not advocate the introduction of legislation, I fail to see how he can promise to support such legislation.

Mr. Anthony

I said "if" and I think I am quite in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is for the Chair to decide.

Mr. Anthony

I accept your ruling. I am not going to pursue that matter further than again to ask the Minister, does he stand for one army and one police force, and is he prepared to use the machinery at his disposal to disband armies other than the National Army, the army recognised in this country? Is he prepared to use the machinery at his command, and if he has not sufficient machinery at his command, is he prepared to introduce new legislation to deal with the menace to the citizens of the country?

Mr. Keyes

I should just like to ask one question of the Minister. Having regard to the urgent necessity for economy which has been proven by the regrettable cut in the pay of the Civic Guards, does the Minister still think it essential to continue the occupancy of the premises at Kilmainham, with the necessary heavy outlay it entails? As recruiting to any large extent has now ceased for the Civic Guards, and as a position of stability has been reached, does he not consider it would be possible to revert back to the old conditions obtaining when a larger force was capable of being accommodated at the headquarters in Phoenix Park? I suggest to the Minister that he should consider the advisability with the necessary reorganisation it would entail of cutting the costs entailed by the maintenance of this building and, perhaps, leave that money available as an offset against the cut in the pay of the Civic Guards.

Mr. MacDermot

I feel it is impossible to allow this Estimate to pass without saying a word to indicate the disapproval that I feel of the state of things in the country that has been alluded to by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney and Deputy Anthony. At the same time, I feel that the question is one which goes far beyond the scope of any discussion of the administration of the Department of Justice. The task of the Minister in dealing with the phenomena, to which allusion has been made, is an impossible one until Government policy is changed. The existence of semi-military bodies in this country, one of which, at any rate, seeks to impose its will, and does in fact sometimes impose its will, by force on the private citizen, is something that must be abominable to any lover of individual liberty as I claim to be. But that situation will necessarily continue so long as Government policy remains as it is. There is no use shirking the fact that a large proportion of the Fianna Fáil Party—I have heard it myself from some of their representatives both in the Dáil and in the Seanad—are glad of the existence of the I.R.A. and wish to see it going on. It would be out of order to pursue that topic at length, but so long as a substantial portion of a constitutional Party wishes to have a sort of mastiff on a chain, that is to be kept reasonably quiet during their own régime, that is to be kept reasonably fierce, too, so that in case of any change of régime it could be let loose again—so long as that is their attitude, I feel that it is a hopeless thing to expect the Minister for Justice to take the course with regard to illegal organisations that he might otherwise take. I propose to take another opportunity of discussing this whole question on the Estimate for the President's Department, or some other more suitable occasion. I do not feel that it can be dealt with adequately on the Estimate for the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Belton

It is interesting and use ful for Deputies to get an opportunity, at this opportune time, to put to the Minister for Justice whether he will see in future, as apparently has not occurred in the past, that even-handed justice will be handed out to citizens, that if a loyal citizen of this State goes into court, or is taken into court, and is prepared to abide by the decision of that court, that other citizens will be obliged either to go into that court to answer charges, or if any other citizen wants to bring them in that they must go in and abide loyally by the decision of that court. There have been some very strange and inexplicable cases of justice, or alleged justice, within the last year. A man is caught with a gun; he goes into court and does not recognise the court. But citizens who are keeping up this State find themselves robbed by the Ministry, and "mandamused" by the men who destroyed their property a few years ago and made them pay in the rates for the destruction of the property, and this year are going to compensate, out of public funds, the men who destroyed that property. I wonder if I as a special defendant in the case that we answered in the courts during the last three days stated that I did not recognise the court would I be here or in Mountjoy now? Am I not a good citizen? Are my people not as long in this country as the Gilmores? I make no apology for being a defendant in that case.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not advisable to refer to individuals who have no opportunity of replying to privileged statements made by Deputies in this House.

Mr. Belton

I agree, and I withdraw the statement.

Mr. MacEntee

Is the Deputy in order in discussing the mandamus proceedings at all?

Mr. Belton

The Minister will hear a lot more about the mandamus proceedings before they are finished, and the gentlemen who are privileged in this House equally with me will get an opportunity of speaking on these mandamus proceedings. When the question of cuts comes along, we will want to see what those official gentlemen are getting in salaries and in briefs at the expense of the taxpayers, and how much these briefs have increased since they took briefs from the Black and Tan Government in similar circumstances.

Mr. MacEntee

Once more, a Chinn Comhairle, is this in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

A discussion of a recent legal case is not in order, nor is a discussion of the "cuts" Bill.

Mr. Belton

I was only, A Chinn Comhairle, making a passing reference to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should pass it, and get down to the Estimate.

Mr. Belton

Having made that reference I will pass on. I would have no objection if Deputies, who are perhaps more intimately concerned than the Ministers, came into the arena from behind the barrier. On the discussion that has taken place about armies, I am not going to express an opinion one way or the other as to which army we should have, but let us have only one. If I stood behind the I.R.A. of the present day, as some of the Ministers do, I would have the courage to get up here and say: "We have one army, and that is the I.R.A.," so that we should know where we are. I know many of the officers of the present I.R.A., and I know that they would welcome a declaration of that kind. There are many officers of the I.R.A. whom I know personally, and do business with, and who are as straight men as there are in this country. They have their convictions. Our convictions are different, but we would be doing a service to this country if we were honest in our convictions, and courageous enough to express them. The Minister is not. The Minister for Justice —I have not the exact figures of what his Department costs—has the whole machinery of the Department of Justice at his disposal. We have the police; we have an army. We have seen certain travesties of justice during the last year. Is he going to continue to tax the people of this country for those travesties?

A question was raised by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney a few months ago about men firing over a grave in Tipperary. I do not say they should not have fired over it, but if I believed they should and were in the Minister's place I would say in reply to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenny "Yes, they did, and what about it?" He did not say that. He made a pretence that they should not, and that he was enquiring into it. The final shot in the shape of an answer that he made in this House was that the Guards were not there and they could not trace anybody. The Minister or his Government sacked a good officer for no reason but that he had been ten years an officer under the previous Government. Has he sacked a single officer in Tipperary because he was not able to trace those culprits? That is how I would look after a job if I were in charge of it. It is nothing to laugh at, unless you want to fool the people, unless you want to get votes and get money under false pretences. If any Deputy or Minister who laughed at that remark of mine were a manager of a limited company, and, when brought before the board of directors in connection with some pilfering which had been going on in the business, laughed on being asked "Have you traced the culprits? What have you done to the men under you?" how long would he be in the service of the limited company? He would be instantly dismissed. If the country knew precisely the conduct of Ministers here, and how much it is at variance with their promises and their sanctimonious hypocrisy on public platforms, they would get as quick a dismissal as the manager who was disloyal to his limited company. It is for the Minister to face up to this. If he goes round the city of Dublin, except his eyes are shut and he is wilfully blind, he will see every dead wall at this moment pasted with recruiting posters. I am not saying they should not be there.

Mr. MacEntee

Of course not!

Mr. Belton

I am not, because it is not my responsibility, but the Minister says they should not be there. What is he doing to stop them? Let us take that poster as an official poster from this Dáil, and let the I.R.A., which is there described as the National Army of this country, be the National Army, and save the country the money we are being asked to vote here to pay another National Army. Which is it? You took half a million pounds from agriculture. How much are you going to throw into this army which you do not recognise? Let us have one thing or the other.

Mr. MacEntee

How does the provision of money for this army which Deputy Belton is speaking about arise on this Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Mr. Belton

It is the duty of the Minister for Justice to look after the activities of an army that he does not recognise, and the Minister for Finance knew more about the irregularities of an army than the Deputy who is speaking did. I am glad a reference was made by Deputy Anthony to acts that were taken by the previous administration to deal with matters of this kind. I was doubly glad to find Deputy MacDermot getting up to speak on this question, though I do not know exactly what he said, if he said anything. Let Deputy MacDermot weigh in his mind that when he gets on a platform again he should not tell the unfortunate people down in the County Kildare that the Cumann na nGaedheal Party must never come back to power because they could only rule through coercion. Let Deputy MacDermot be man enough now to take his stand with the Ministry and say: "We will not have coercion, but we will turn a blind eye to the breaking of the law." Then, of course, we will not want coercion.

Mr. MacDermot

The statement which Deputy Belton has made with regard to me is untrue.

Mr. Belton

If that statement is denied by Deputy MacDermot, and I must withdraw it as a matter of parliamentary procedure, I will do so, but I have here a cutting from the "Leinster Leader" in which he is alleged to have said it. If he states that he never said it I will withdraw it.

Mr. MacDermot

May I say that I contradicted, in the Press, that particular newspaper report a few days after its first appearance.

Mr. Belton

I have not seen the contradiction, but, whether the Deputy contradicted it in the Press or not, if he says that he never made the statement I certainly withdraw it, and I am sure the Deputy will accept my withdrawal.

Mr. P. Hogan (Galway)

On this Estimate there is one incident that I wish to refer to, but, unfortunately, it is an incident I am precluded from commenting upon. Some time ago a young man named O'Connor—I am almost certain that is his name— admitted that he was a member of the I.R.A. when he was charged with having a lethal weapon, a revolver. He refused to recognise the court and got a certain term of imprisonment for the offence. Shortly afterwards the judge was reported in the papers as having stated that he understood that this young man was on hunger strike; also that he believed he was a man of very high principles; and he asked the Government to release him. The Government promptly did so. That is the bald story as reported in the papers. I am not going to comment on it, except to say, that it was one of the most disgraceful incidents that occurred, in this sense, for a long time, and did more to shock the sense of law and justice in the people than any incident that occurred for a long time in this country.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Ruttledge)

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney last night, and again to-day, made considerable reference to transfers and promotions that have taken place in the Force. As regards transfers, I looked up the period from February to May, 1931, to see the number of transfers effected by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney amongst the officers of the Gárda. I compared that with the period from the time I took office, down to the present day. I found that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, after all he said last night upon the squandering of money and so on, just beat me by three in the matter of transfers in the same period. He succeeded in transferring in that period —and we will take for the moment his own words that neither he nor I are actually responsible for transfers— but the Commissioner, who was acting under him succeeded in making 29 transfers. I do not say whether the Commissioner was instructed or otherwise consulted about these transfers. The Commissioner, in the same period this year, since I took office, transferred 32. That it was much more cheaply done, because when Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was Minister for Justice his 29 transfers took place, not in Dublin, but outside Dublin. Ten of the transfers out of the 32 that took place in my time were in Dublin, and resulted from certain changes, promotions, and so on.

One would imagine from the speech made last night by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, that there was a plot to defeat the efforts of the Minister for Finance in securing economy. The House was led into the belief that since I took up office I was continually changing and shifting and continually transferring guards and superintendents all over the country. The House now has the facts, that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney while he was in office added much more to the cost of transfers in that period than I have done. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney knows perfectly well that the Minister for Justice is not responsible, good, bad or indifferent for these transfers. It is a matter entirely for the Commissioner. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney referred to promotions, increments and so on. Now those superintendents, some second-grade, some third-grade, who have been promoted a grade, were superintendents due for promotion. I may have been consulted about it. If I see nothing against a superintendent, and the Commissioner says he is entitled to promotion, why should I interfere? Would anybody in this House stand for such a thing. If a superintendent is due for promotion, and is entitled to promotion, does anybody in this House contend that he should not get it?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I applauded it.

Mr. Ruttledge

The Deputy charged me with squandering money and with defeating the efforts of the Minister for Finance to effect economies. To prevent people getting promotion is not the way to effect economies if that was what was in the Deputy's mind. Referring to economies and to what was alluded to last night by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, certainly, as far as I know, every Minister is concerned about his own particular Department. When representations were made to me by the Gárda with regard to cuts, I examined these cuts and met the Representative Body. The case they made was submitted to the Executive Council. I think the Guards are lucky, and the Force as a whole is very lucky that there was a change of Government at the particular time it took place. As already indicated to the House, if the decision of the previous Executive Council was permitted to be carried out, and if that Executive Council had been again returned to office, the cut on the Gárdaí would have resulted in two and a half times the cut carried out by the present Executive Council.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I definitely stated in the House when the Minister for Finance made a similar statement that he was misinformed. I stated that if he had consulted the public papers he would see not only was that proposal for a cut in the pay of the Guards' then put forward as tentative proposals to receive the views of the Guards upon them, but, also, that after these proposals appeared in the papers they were completely set aside. The Minister should be able to get this information from the files in the Department of Justice. If he is not able to get it, he might, at any rate, go and see the public papers.

Mr. Ruttledge

Will the Deputy deny that the files of his Department contain a letter from the Minister for Finance stating that the Executive Council had decided on certain cuts to be made? Does he deny that?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I am perfectly aware that the Department of Finance wrote such a letter to my Department. I am, also, aware that the Department of Justice sent that, practically word for word, on to the Gárda Headquarters. But that does not alter the fact that the Executive Council had come to no definite conclusion, and does not alter the fact that the Executive Council could not have come to a definite conclusion, because that was an Executive Council that was law-abiding, while this Executive Council breaks right through all laws and robs the Guards.

Mr. Ruttledge

May I ask, through the Chair, was a letter of that sort sent by the Department of Finance intimating this cut which I put at two and a half times the amount of the cut now being made on the Gárdaí, and did it convey accurately the decision of the Executive Council?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It did not. It was a letter which was unhappily worded and nothing more. It was unhappily worded by the Department of Finance. I say definitely there was no decision, and could not have been a decision by the Executive Council. Other schemes of economy were under consideration of which that was one. The scheme put forward in that letter, tentatively, was completely abandoned and the fact that it had been abandoned appeared in the Dublin papers, at least it certainly appeared in the "Irish Independent."

An Ceann Comhairle

I have decided now that I am not prepared to hear either the Deputy on the Minister further on the question of tentative cuts proposed two years ago.

Mr. Ruttledge

The next thing that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney referred to was the question of recruiting for the Guards. This Estimate was prepared last November, and if Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney had read the Estimate he would find that he was misled, or was trying to mislead, because if he turns to page 109 he will find there the sum of £24,000 being saved in respect of non-recruiting and in respect of vacancies not being filled. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney spoke at considerable length about recruiting and about what it was going to cost and so on. If the Deputy turns his eyes to the bottom of page 109 he will find there the sum of £24,000 to be saved in the current year through non-recruiting. What is the point of all this? Did the Deputy not read the Estimate, or did he think that nobody else would?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Why does the Minister estimate for 5,643 guards if he is not going to have them?

Mr. Ruttledge

They are not going to be recruited. Since the Fianna Fáil Government took office not a single guard has been recruited into the Civic Guard Force.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Minister says they have not recruited. If that is the case, you have not got 5,643 guards. You cannot have, because there was wastage last year. Why estimate for them?

Mr. Ruttledge

We have got to estimate for them because, on the basis shown we cannot estimate what wastage there will be.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

You can.

Mr. Ruttledge

We cannot estimate within very fine limits. Last year the amount of wastage was very low. It was something like 70 for the whole Force. However, the fact is that no recruiting has taken place, and no recruiting is contemplated in the present year.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

If the Minister can make no estimate as to the number of guards, how does he make the estimate as to £24,000?

Dr. Ward

I think, sir, the Minister ought to be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Minister does not choose to give way to any Deputies he need not do so. The House is in Committee. A Deputy may speak more than once, but it would be much more orderly procedure to speak twice than to cross-examine the Minister.

Mr. Ruttledge

I do not mind cross-examination. The fact is, that provision has been made and that a saving will be effected, if that is any satisfaction to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. We, when in opposition, criticised the strength of the Force and stated that a much smaller Force could carry out the duties. Efforts are being made and the situation is being examined with a view to seeing how that can be worked out without impairing the efficiency of the Guards and without impairing the work they have to perform.

Reference was made also by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney to this Committee of Reference. That Committee of Reference was appointed by me when the work of the other Committee of Reference had been completed, and not until then. When they reported to me that they had completed these sweeps and asked whether they were going to continue with the other sweeps or not, it was for me to secure a decision from the Executive Council on the matter. It is no use Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney trying to mislead anybody by saying it is an attempt to give money away for nothing. These people have been working since their appointment, and, I am quite satisfied, performing very useful work, and they will only be paid for the period over which their work has extended. They are not going to be paid on the extravagant scale that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney selected when he was appointing people. There will not be anybody with £2,300 for a part-time job. The House will see the basis and the proportion on which they have been paid. When I was satisfied that the work of the other Committee had ended I felt it my duty—and, as Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney well knows, I was bound under the Act to do so—to appoint a Committee of Reference. I do not need to anticipate what would have been the result of the Bill, which the Local Government Department had before the Dáil, when it had finally gone through both Houses.

Reference has been made to the I.R.A. firing over graves and so on. I am satisfied, with regard to that particular incident, that every effort was made by the Guards to ascertain who those people were. A similar incident happened the other day in Tipperary and investigations are proceeding to try to secure the names of those people. There was a funeral of a member of the Army Comrades' Association there and members of the Army Comrades lined up alongside the grave and fired shots over it. It was in a part of the country where there is only a small station of only three Guards and they did not anticipate that there would be any trouble. They heard the shots and they tried to secure the names. These men marched in uniform and so on and that incident occurred. But I am satisfied that in both these incidents everything that was possible to be done to secure the names is being done by the Guards. I do not stand, nor does the Executive Council stand, over any body of people in this country parading publicly in arms and, so far as I am concerned, and so far as the policy of the Executive Council is concerned, everything will be done to try to prevent that.

Deputy Hogan has referred to the O'Connor case. From time to time I have had petitions—not in that particular case—but from time to time petitions have come before me for the remission of sentences and so on, which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney well knows, and in every one of those cases the petitions are sent back to the judge concerned for his views on them. So far, I have never interfered with the recommendation of the judge whatever that recommendation was. In reference to the particular case of O'Connor, the statement of the judge was quite clear. He was the judge who tried this man and who was administering the law, and I think the Executive Council acted in a perfectly proper manner in acting on the recommendation of the judge on that occasion. In any case, I do not think it is right or proper that the action of any judge should be criticised in this House.

I do not think it is necessary for me to deal in any further detail with any of the matters that have been raised. I recognise the duty of this Department to maintain law and preserve peace and I can assure the House that so far as its in our power and with the resources we have we are going to carry out those duties.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

May I ask the Minister, then, is he determined to make the I.R.A. obey the law and cease drilling?

Mr. Ruttledge

There are difficulties in the situation. We have springing up at present a force that calls itself a militant force, and for which there is an appeal from the Opposition to join—that is, if their paper conveys the true account of what their ideas are. They have their brigades, divisions, and so on, formed, on the lines of an army. We intend to secure that people will not be permitted to impose their will by force on the people of this country.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Will the Minister answer my question? He has very carefully dodged it. Is he going to prevent the I.R.A. from drilling?

Mr. Ruttledge

I do not mind what manoeuvres any people in this country go through. I do not care who they are or what they are, provided that people do not go out publicly with arms or interfere in arms with people.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It is all right to shoot people privately I suppose?

Mr. Ruttledge

Reference has been made to shooting in this debate already. I want to know what people were shot since we took office. We hear all this talk about shooting. Can any Deputy in the Opposition point to the case of a single person being shot since we took office?

Mr. Anthony

The Minister spoke about parading publicly with arms. Does he suggest that if they have arms obtained secretly he is not prepared to put the machinery of his Department into operation to discover where these arms are? Surely he must know they are there. He has information that they are there. I would like to have that question answered.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Minister, as the Deputy well knows.

Mr. MacDermot

I would like very heartily to welcome the statement of the Minister that he is determined to see that individual liberty shall not be interfered with by anybody. I hope he will carry that a little further and that he will also be determined to see that no public meeting is interfered with and that people shall not be encouraged and incited to interfere with public meetings by the publicity given, even to the most unsuccessful attempts, by the Government Press.

Mr. T. Kelly

What does the Deputy mean by the Government Press?

Mr. MacDermot

There were a few remarks made by Deputy Anthony and Deputy Belton which conveyed to my mind—perhaps I am wrong—the idea that they thought that the choice of policy was between the Public Safety Act and the policy that the present Government are pursuing. I do not admit that is the choice. I think it is perfectly possible for this Government to solve the whole of the problem without recourse to a Public Safety Act, but they are not doing it.

Mr. Anthony

That is it.

Mr. MacDermot

That is what I meant when I said I thought this matter could be more suitably dealt with upon the President's Estimate than upon the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Belton

The Deputy admits substantially the statement that he said was untrue that was published in the "Leinster Leader."

Mr. Dillon

I am not quite clear how many Estimates are being discussed or what procedure it is proposed to take.

Mr. Ruttledge

The whole lot.

An Ceann Comhairle

All the Estimates dealing with the Department of Justice.

Mr. MacDermot

Deputy Belton seems to have withdrawn his withdrawal. I understood him to say that I had alleged that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government should never be allowed to come back into power because they could never govern without the assistance of a Public Safety Act. I did not make that statement.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to say a few words with reference to the Gárda Síochána. I should like to pay a very special tribute to the work of the Gárda in preserving the right of free speech in this country. There have been carefully organised attempts recently to break up meetings, attempts of the most menacing character, when the deliberate purpose of the interrupters was to intimidate the Gárda, if that were possible.

Mr. Anthony

And they will attempt it again.

Mr. Dillon

Those attempts will, doubtless, be made again. However, I would like to say that so far the Gárda, under exceedingly difficult circumstances, have resisted that intimidation and have maintained the right of free speech. I think it only proper to give this word of warning in the presence of the Minister for Justice. The Gárda are being asked to do frightfully difficult work in maintaining free speech under present conditions. I have no reason to apprehend that their splendid morale will break under the strain. I will say that, but for their interference during the last few months, no man could speak his mind in this country if he was not prepared to bow down before the doctrines of the I.R.A. or the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. Anthony

We all quite agree with you there.

Mr. Dillon

I recognise it is the work of certain bodies of men. I believe that the vast majority of the people who support the Fianna Fáil Party do not subscribe to activities of that kind. I believe some persons who support Fianna Fáil do encourage that, and I believe the vast majority of the people who support the I.R.A. and the Communist Party in this country also indulge in activities of that kind.

I suggested on a previous occasion here that economies, while in themselves excellent, should be approached with judicious purpose. It may not be the wisest thing rigorously to cut down the numbers of the Gárda without first examining whether we could not give the Gárda additional work to do and save expense under other heads. This could be credited as an economy in the Gárda Estimate. I have always felt that it was a great mistake to emphasise that side of the duty of the Gárda which is connected with enforcing the law and bringing criminals to justice. Of course that is a very necessary part of their duty, and they do it very well, but there ought to be an atmosphere created in which the ordinary people would look to the Gárda for assistance whenever they are in trouble. It has occurred to me that if the Gárda were given such duties as are at present discharged by the local poor law relieving officers and by the local subsanitary officers, very substantial savings could be made in those departments and allowances might be made to the Gárda for undertaking the work.

We all know that every police station has to have a certain minimum number of men in attendance all day. There must be at least one Gárda on duty in a station all day. I cannot see why he could not, in a small country town, be ready to be of service to country people who might want forms filled up in regard to housing loans, old age pensions, or applications of that kind. Where you have four or five Gárda in a country station, I cannot see why one of them should not be charged with the duties that ordinarily attach to the office of a subsanitary officer, who is there for the purpose of protecting breaches of the public health law. I cannot see, either, why a Gárda could not quite efficiently act as a poor law relieving officer in a country town. The result of that would be to bring people who are in distress and difficulty into contact with the Guards and to make them look towards the Gárda barracks rather as a place of consolation than as a place of punishment. There is a lot in that. If you could get the people to regard the Gárda in that way, if you could make the people beholden to the Gárda for one kindness or another, there is many a time when a Guard may be in a tight corner that he might find at his elbow two or three men to whom he did a kindness in the past and who would recognise their social services.

Mr. T. Kelly

They could sell sweep tickets to the people.

Mr. Dillon

Really, sir, I do not know if the Deputies have read "Alice in Wonderland," but I must say that Deputy Kelly reminds me of the White Knight. No man knows what he is to say next, and I doubt very much if he knows it himself. I do not mind going on with that kind of thing, but it is intolerable to have him conducting himself like Humpty Dumpty every day in the Dáil. While he is like the White Knight, the Cheshire Cat or——

Mr. T. Kelly

——the Mad Hatter.

Mr. Dillon

——Now I did not say that, and I did not simply it. Two years ago, or at any rate 12 months ago, I invited the attention of Deputy Geoghegan, who was then Minister for Justice, to the state of arrears in the hearing of appeals that were going forward from the Circuit Court to the High Court. I suggested to the Minister then that there were considerable arrears of work, and that appeals were not getting disposed of with that rapidity with which they should get disposed of. I remember on that occasion he said that that was not his information. I invite the present Minister for Justice to examine that question, and I think he will find that there are solid grounds for the complaints I make. I should like to go a little further and to say that up to quite recently the work in the Circuit Court was certainly much behindhand. I know that owing to the general condition of the country there has been a considerable falling off in litigation during the past four or five months——

Mr. Corry

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dillon

——because one of the first effects of poverty is to teach people sense with regard to legislation.

Mr. T. Kelly

I would like to see that.

Mr. Dillon

I would like the Minister to examine the situation with a view to preparing a more effective and rapid system of disposing of the Circuit Court appeals, when the normal volume of Circuit Court business is again flowing. The principal matters in connection with this Vote have already been dealt with. These are two or three minor points that I would like the Minister to consider generally.

Mr. Ruttledge

With regard to the question of arrears of Circuit Court appeals there was something like 53 arrears a year ago, but my information is that practically all these arrears will be completely disposed of by the end of this term.

Mr. Corish

I have repeatedly drawn the attention of the Minister to the fact that in the town of Wexford there are two Gárda barracks that are in a wretchedly bad state of repair. In addition to being in a bad state of repair they are insanitary. One can hardly understand how people having any respect for the Gárda Síochána would allow them to remain in the state that they are.

There is another matter to which I wish to draw the attention of the Minister, and that is the difficulty Gárdaí in the country experience in the different stations to which they are attached in getting suitable housing accommodation for themselves. Anybody familiar with the situation knows that in a great many cases, when a married Guard comes to a strange town, he has to live in rooms for which he is charged a ridiculously high rent. I suggest that the Minister ought to take advantage of the Housing Acts and build in the larger towns a number of houses which could be kept specially for occupation by the Gárda. That would be a most desirable thing to do. As the money is available now there is very little reason why, through the medium of the Housing Act, this could not be done. I suggest to the Minister to do something on those lines.

Vote 32 put and agreed to.