Anyhow, it is a most unsatisfactory position, and I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that before he comes here to talk learnedly about Rip Van Winkles he might make sure his own glasshouse is properly protected from charges of Rip Van Winkleism. It took them three months to investigate a simple complaint, and then a maze of evasion was trotted out apparently to justify the sleepiness of the Department, on the one hand, or to justify the inactivity of the Parliamentary Secretary on the other hand.
Certain statements were made in connection with relief schemes recently. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that many of these people who were employed on relief schemes were just expected to give a little work in return for their wages. In other words, they were almost going to decide to give them the wages for nothing, having regard to prevailing distress; but they thought it better to get some work done. We now find those people work from 48 to 55 hours a week for the sum of 21/- or 24/-. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary is going to tell the House to-day that the 21/- and 24/- mentality is going to go by the board and that the offending paragraph in former instructions, advising county surveyors to pay less than the agricultural rate of wages, is going to be withdrawn definitely. These relief schemes, just like the Shannon scheme, have been disgraced by the shockingly low rate of wages. Just fancy 21/- or 24/- for 55 hours' work and with broken time in addition. If the Parliamentary Secretary is going to stand for that kind of wage policy and that kind of social policy then, no matter how much Deputy McMenamin may disagree with him in many respects, I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary is very near the wage outlook of some members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party.
I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will issue definite instructions in connection with forthcoming relief schemes that reasonable rates of wages will be paid. Let us get away from that poverty-stricken mentality and the frightfully low standard of living that is conceived by the payment of a wage of 21/- or 24/- a week. It is impossible for a human being, if he has any regard for the physical needs of his family, to provide for them on such a wage. Any Government which offers that wage for 55 hours' work and that persists in such a policy must have very little regard for the human needs of a working man and his family.
Some months ago a question was raised here about the insurability under the Unemployment Insurance Acts of persons employed on relief schemes. The matter was discussed and a most chaotic state of mind was revealed on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Finance. The Minister apparently did not know much about the question of insurability under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, and the Parliamentary Secretary tried to defend the non-insurance of these people on the ground that relief schemes were not insurable under the Acts. These Acts take no notice of schemes; they are concerned with the nature of the work. Anyone who has had experience of the Unemployment Insurance Acts and the thousand and one decisions given under them knows perfectly well that road and quarry work carried out under relief schemes is the kind of work insurable under those Acts. So far, however, those persons have not been regarded as insurable.
I think there would be no difficulty in showing the Parliamentary Secretary that decisions already given, plus the normal insurability of workers employed under county councils, will make it perfectly clear that these persons are properly insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Acts and the failure of the Government to insure them amounts to gross evasion. I do not know what is the explanation of the abnormal delay. One cannot help thinking that if a private employer were involved in a matter of this sort there would have been a decision arrived at long ago, very likely against him, by the Department of Industry and Commerce. Apparently another State Department may have a matter of this kind held up for six, nine or 12 months, without coming to any decision upon the insurability of those people. I believe they are properly insurable under the Act, and under many decisions given under the Act. I think they should be entitled to expect that the State will conform with that piece of social legislation, so as to provide some sustenance for those persons who are genuinely unemployed.
I suppose this relief scheme will be the kind of one that will find its way and its operations into bog areas more than into towns. I should like to point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that in the towns there is really more unemployment than in the rural areas. It seems to me that the towns have been rather neglected from the point of view of the application of relief schemes, or the grant of moneys, in the past. I know a town in my own particular district that is absolutely reeking with unemployment. The whole constituency is bearing a population absolutely outside its capacity to sustain, under the existing circumstances, The whole County Kildare, at one time, lived on the fact that it was the area for the accommodation of large numbers of British troops. These troops are now gone. In the national interests the people of Kildare have made great sacrifices in the loss of employment that has followed the departure of these people from the county. Rightly and as cheerfully as possible, the people made these sacrifices. I am not making a speech for local consumption upon this Vote, but I would point out that in this particular county there is a case for recognising the state of things that prevails there.
A large section of the population came into the county by reason of the fact that, at one time, it was the biggest training centre for British troops. The departure of these troops has led to a lot of unemployment. There is practically no local industry in Kildare except horse-breeding and raising, and that industry is now absorbing a considerably lesser number of people than formerly. There is special reason, I repeat, for realising the sacrifices that a county of that kind has made in the national interest.
I suggested a number of schemes to the Department. I come back to one scheme that I think will be dear to the hearts of the people who believe in economic schemes, and that is that something should be done with the derelict site of the Newbridge Military Barracks. Portion of the barrack was dismantled this year; and it stands there now a bleak, gaunt structure. If the remainder of the barrack were dismantled, I think it would be possible to realise a very substantial sum from the sale of the materials. I understand that when the partial demolition was carried out a substantial sum of money was realised from the materials, and, I think, having regard to the nature of the material used when the barrack was constructed, it would be possible to realise a very large sum from the sale of the rest of the materials available after the demolition. In any case, if the Parliamentary Secretary looks at the figures through the employment exchanges in that county and compares them with other counties, he will find that instead of decreasing they are actually, in some exchanges, increasing. I know there is almost despair in some districts of registering in the exchanges in order to obtain employment. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary especially to consider the position of that bleak barracks at Newbridge. Its demolition would be the removal of an eyesore, and a very large sum of money could be secured by reason of the value of the material.