Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Apr 1934

Vol. 51 No. 12

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 49—Science and Art.

Mr. Derrig

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £25,488 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1935, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na bhFundúireachtaí Eolaíochta agus Ealadhan agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £25,488 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Institutions of Science and Art and sundry Grants-in-Aid, etc.

Mr. Dillon

On that Vote, Sir, I understand that last year there were certain minor deductions made from some of the grants in connection with the School of Art, I think, and I was going to ask the Minister this year if there was any prospect of those grants being restored. The reductions were very small—something like £100 or £50 —in the grants made, I think, to the School of Art and one or two other institutions of that kind. I do not know whether the Royal Irish Academy comes under this Vote. I should like to know whether that is a charge on the Department of Finance or not.

Mr. Derrig

I am informed that there was no reduction in regard to the School of Art. I think there was a reduction in regard to certain grants-in-aid, but probably on Votes for the Department of Finance.

Mr. Dillon

I see; but there were certainly alarums and excursions, and it was thought that there might be. There has been a reduction in the grant to the Royal Irish Academy, I think. I am not sure whether this is a charge on the Education Vote or not.

Mr. Derrig

I do not think we are responsible. I do not think it is on our Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Well, while the Minister is looking up that, I would be interested to know the reason for the reduction of £4,000 under sub-head B (1) Publications in Irish.

Mr. Derrig

Publications in Irish?

Mr. Dillon

Yes—sub-head B (1) of Vote 49.

Mr. Derrig

We had a large balance unspent last year.

Mr. Dillon

Could the Minister not find people to produce the necessary publications or were manuscripts rejected, or what is the reason that the balance was unspent? I may say that the Royal Irish Academy Grant comes under Vote 21 which is answered for, I think, by the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Derrig

We have altered our policy, of course, and I have not the details at the moment. There had been what I might call a policy of translating heterogeneous works— works of fiction, for example, rather trivial in value I think—into Irish. We were committed to publishing all those works which had been accepted. Since I became Minister I have been trying to get on to works of a more standard type. Although we have advertised, for example, for translations of text books suitable for secondary schools the number of manuscripts forthcoming has been very small. That probably largely accounts for the balance—the fact that we have desisted from the policy of translating books of fiction holus-bolus practically into Irish. We are trying to get books translated of a definite value from the Irish standpoint. I will write to the Deputy about that.

Mr. Dillon

Under sub-head B (4) here we have provision for £755 per annum and the note says:

"Provision for an inclusive allowance to the editor at the rate of £730 per annum and for incidental expenses. The salaries of any assistants employed will be paid by the editor."

This sub-head is for the production of Irish county histories. I understand that the editor here is the Rev. Michael O'Flanagan. What I wanted to ask the Minister is, what he is going to do with the histories when he gets them? Are they for school books?

Mr. Derrig

Not necessarily.

Mr. Dillon

If it is intended to use them for school books, have they the approval of the school managers?

Mr. Derrig

The books have not been prepared yet, so that the question does not arise at the moment. It was never intended, I think, that they should be used definitely as school books. I explained, on the occasion when I was introducing the Estimate first, that the whole matter would be considered when the manuscripts were available as to the form in which they would be published and whether they would be published otherwise than for general reading. It was the intention that they should be published for general use and not for school use.

Mr. Dillon

Might I ask if there is any precedent for charging a sum on the Education Vote for the production of books for general use?

Mr. Derrig

Yes. The Gúm translations in Irish for example.

Mr. Dillon

The Gúm is under a special heading because the general promotion of the interests of the Irish language is committed to the Department of Education and they were, I suppose, entitled to take any steps they saw fit or necessary to take with a view to promoting the use of the Irish language both in the schools and outside and after school hours. It was necessary to provide some literature in Irish to occupy the time of pupils who desire to carry Irish out of school into their homes. There is provision under the head of Miscellaneous Expenses, sub-head 21, and if it were desired to subsidise books of general interest one would have imagined that it would come under that heading, and coming under that heading, one would have imagined the task being committed to some person or body who were experts in the matter concerned. I do not know if the gentleman charged with the work here is a historian, or has any special qualification, or has made any particular study of the question of local history in this country. It may be that he has, but I think the House should be informed of the purpose for which those books are being prepared and of the ultimate cost of publishing those works and whether the value of the work given in will bear any relation to the cost of publication. I think this is the second year, is it not?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

How long has he been in receipt of a salary?

Mr. Derrig

This is the second year.

Mr. Dillon

Has he been 24 months or only 12 months?

Mr. Derrig

Not quite 24.

Mr. Dillon

He has been at it nearly two years. Has he produced anything?

Mr. Derrig

He has. I understand that he has practically completed one county and is working on another.

Mr. Dillon

When is the first manuscript going to be published?

Mr. Derrig

I expect the first manuscript ought to be available in the summer. I cannot state the date definitely, but the work on the first manuscript for Country Roscommon was well advanced and he was working on the second county.

Mr. Dillon

Then the history of the County Roscommon will be published shortly?

Mr. Derrig

It should be published shortly. The question arises when we get the manuscript whether we are satisfied to accept it as an authoritative work or not.

Mr. Dillon

What will we do supposing we are not satisfied?

Mr. Derrig

The question will arise of course——

Mr. Dillon

Whether we will light our pipe with £755 worth.

Mr. Derrig

When the question arises, if we are not satisfied with the work that Father O'Flanagan has done up to the present we can take action accordingly. I have no reason to doubt that the work he has done has been satisfactory. The procedure has been that if an editor is appointed and is asked to do a certain amount of work, the planning out of the work is left to him. I am quite satisfied.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose the Minister will bear in mind when examining the manuscript that there is more than one history of Roscommon already on sale and that the unfortunate private historians of Roscommon, who have written their works, published them and gone on the hazard on their merits, will be entitled to some consideration when it falls for consideration whether this masterpiece should be allowed to flash across the sky at the Government expense?

Mr. Derrig

I do not think the Deputy is right in referring to a book he has not seen as a masterpiece.

Mr. Dillon

I am assuming when he is paid £755 that it will be.

Mr. Derrig

I think Father O'Flanagan has sufficient knowledge of Irish history and of the Irish language and has given a certain definite study to this subject, and I am satisfied that he will make a suitable editor. There is a precedent for engaging an editor, as we hope to complete next autumn the work which has been going on for the past three or four years on an English-Irish dictionary.

Mr. T. Kelly

Have you not already published the O'Donovan papers?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I see £755 here. Surely he does not wish to compare Father O'Flanagan's qualifications with his? If I remember rightly, Father O'Flanagan in some illegal organisation gave the figure as £450.

Mr. Derrig

Is that in order?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not.

Mr. Derrig

I think the Deputy should withdraw the statement.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I want to refer to the figure.

Mr. Derrig

I think he ought to withdraw the statement that Father O'Flanagan is a member of an illegal organisation. He should make that statement outside and give Father O'Flanagan an opportunity to reply.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I am referring to what was in the papers. It was either the I.R.A. or Sinn Féin, or some organisation like that.

Mr. Derrig

Does the Deputy know that it is an illegal organisation?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I am satisfied that it is.

Mr. Derrig

I am not.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Read Article 19.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

Will the Minister state whether the editor is a civil servant?

Mr. Derrig

The editor is not a civil servant.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

Would the Minister state whether there is anything in the terms of his appointment which makes him different from, say, the ordinary part-time postman who would be dismissed because of taking part with one political Party rather than the Government Party?

Mr. Derrig

I have had no complaint made to me regarding Father O'Flanagan. So far as I know, as I have assured Deputy Dillon, he is carrying out his work satisfactorily. He has reported to me on the progress that has been made, and if I am not satisfied with the progress that he is making or think that his conduct is in any way unworthy of this work or militates against its usefulness, then, of course, we can reconsider the whole question.

Mr. T. Kelly

Is the Minister aware that Father O'Flanagan did a great national service some years ago when he published the Ordnance Survey letters, the O'Donovan and O'Curry and other letters which were lying in the offices in the Park for generations, and therefore has proved he is worthy to take on a job like this? I am perfectly certain that he will do it as satisfactorily as he did that other one.

Mr. Esmonde

I concur in what Deputy Kelly has said. In regard to Deputy Dillon's reference to County Roscommon, we all know that County Roscommon is to be torn to pieces and slaughtered as if it were a calf under the new Government Bill, so that there is no necessity for having any record or any history of Roscommon from now onwards. I should like to ask the Minister if he is satisfied that the sum provided for the National Gallery is sufficient to meet the expenses in the case of national manuscripts or books which have to be bought? I think that during the last ten years the National Library has been starved to a great extent, and that many manuscripts and documents which should have come into its possession have been lost to it owing to the insufficiency of funds at the disposal of the National Library. I was glad to see the appeal which appeared in the Irish Press a short time ago, asking that those who had a personal contact with the establishment of the First and Second Dáil and of the State should send in to the National Library such manuscripts as they might possess. I think that appeal should be made wider and that it should be answered by all those who have any manuscripts or documents in their possession. I would not ask anybody to do anything which I am not prepared to do myself. I have myself given to the National Library everything I had, which was of any value from a national or historical point of view, dealing with those years, and I think that everybody should do likewise. That would, to some extent, enable the National Library to form records which would be available for students in years to come. I think the appeal which has been made should be answered and should be broadcast throughout the country, so that the National Library should have all available documents and manuscripts dealing with that period.

Mr. Derrig

I think the provision for the purchase of manuscripts and books for the National Library is sufficient. I am informed that the provision is quite ample, and that no difficulty has been experienced in purchasing the material which the Library considers really valuable or essential. That is my information. Quite recently a most valuable collection of the Letters of Lord Edward Fitzgerald was published for £600. As the Deputy has told us, he himself has made some valuable gifts to the Library, for which he deserves the gratitude of all who are interested in those matters. With regard to the Easter Week material, the National Library is not taking steps to go out and take down material, but they are prepared to accept any material in the way of manuscripts or accounts given by survivors of or participants in the movement of that period, or in the succeeding movement. A guarantee will be given that such material will not be published. As the Deputy knows—I do not know whether the House generally does—a good deal of material dealing with the history of Easter Week has already been accumulated. It is not the intention to publish the material, but it is very essential that all necessary steps should be taken as soon as possible to collect accounts from those who have taken part in the movement. It is very necessary that those accounts should be taken up, and for that reason the Library published a statement that they were willing to take and preserve in safe keeping any documents given to them.

Vote put and agreed to.