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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 May 1934

Vol. 52 No. 13

Estimates for Public Services, 1934-35. - Vote No. 57—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £186,003 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1935, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Deontas-i-gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £186,003 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and a Grant-in-Aid.

The Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce shows a net increase of £103,707. The various headings under which that increase takes place, and also the headings which show an estimated decrease in expenditure, are shown on the face of the Estimate. In sub-head A there is an increase, mainly owing to the necessity of increasing the staff in the Trade and Industries Branch, and in the Finance and Establishment Branch of the Department. The increased duties devolving on the Trade and Industries Branch on account of Government policy, and the enactment of various measures have occasioned an increase in the staff of that branch. The additional expenditure on the Finance and Establishment Branch arises very largely from increased work resulting from the operation of the Unemployment Assistance Act. Sub-heads B, C, D, E and F require very little explanation. They are, in fact, explained very fully in the notes. Sub-head G—Subscriptions, etc., to International Organisations, Special Services, Enquiries, etc.—also shows an increase, resulting from the additional contributions which have to be made this year in respect of items (4), (5) and (6). Items (1), (2) and (3) are the same as in previous years. I presume it is not necessary to make any comment upon them. The increase in respect of the contributions to the International Commission for Air Navigation arises from the fact that previous to 1933 the British Commonwealth was a member of that Commission as a unit. Different members of the Commonwealth had not separate membership, and the aggregate expenses of the Commonwealth were shared between the different members. Owing largely to the initiative of the Saorstát, the Dominions were granted separate membership from May, 1933, whereupon each member of the Commission became liable for the future to make a separate contribution to the funds of the Commission. A new allocation of the expenses of the Commission was made for the year 1934, and the Saorstát was placed in the second class. Representations have been made to have the Saorstát placed in the first class, which will involve a lower contribution, but, until the result of these representations is known we have to budget for the contribution required for members in the second class.

The matter of the Imperial Economic Committee was discussed here at some length some months ago, when the report of the Committee on Economic Co-operation was submitted to the Dáil. That Committee recommended that the Imperial Economic Committee should continue to discharge its existing functions, and take over certain other functions, and particularly that the several Governments should agree to contribute to the services to be performed by it. The Saorstát contribution was fixed at 4 per cent. The total expenses of the Committee are estimated at £20,200, and the Saorstát contribution at £808. The contribution to the Imperial Shipping Committee was also discussed at that time, and the same considerations apply in that respect. Sub-heads H (1) and H (2) —Grant-in-aid of the expenses of the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations), etc.—require little explanation. The notes on the face of the Estimate will give Deputies any information they may desire in that connection.

Sub-head I.—Coal Freight Subsidy— is a new service, initiated some time ago in order to assist owners and crews of small registered vessels, which have become wholly or partly disemployed, in consequence of the changed conditions operating in respect of the importation of coal, consequent on the development of the dispute with Great Britain. It was decided to grant a subsidy of 2/6 per ton in respect of each ton of coal imported by such vessels into the smaller ports from the 9th May, 1933. The subsidy is restricted to small cargo vessels, with registered tonnage not exceeding 170 tons, which are owned by Saorstát citizens, and manned entirely by masters and seamen who are citizens of the Saorstát. The subsidy is not payable in respect of coal imported by any one vessel in excess of 500 tons in any one month, and applies only to cargoes discharged at the smaller ports of the Saorstát. The number of vessels coming within the scope of the subsidy is 35, of which 23 have actually availed of the subsidy, and the number of hands employed is 200 permanently, and 100 additional from time to time. The approximate tonnage imported on the vessels to date is 42,000 tons. The Ship Owners' Association, the body interested in getting this small bounty, reported some weeks ago that the bounty was working satisfactorily in the case of motor and shipping vessels, and that three additional motor vessels, which had been lying at Arklow for some time, had put to sea within the previous month.

Sub-head J.—Minerals Exploration— is also a new service. In 1932 the Executive Council gave instructions that arrangements should be made to explore the mineral resources of Arigna and Slieveanierin areas. At first, it was intended to carry out the exploration by geophysical methods but later it was decided to employ the direct method of investigation by borings and cuttings. Accordingly, a contract was entered into with Associated Contractors (Ireland), Limited, representing a group of French engineering firms, to carry out explorations and furnish a complete report of their investigations. The contract stipulates that local labour is to be employed and materials of Saorstát manufacture used as far as possible. The actual boring is being done by an Irish firm under the supervision of Associated Contractors, Limited. On the basis that approximately 48 borings may be made, it is estimated that the cost will be over £13,000.

The next item in the Estimate is the Prices Commission. The Prices Commission was appointed in April, 1933, and has been requested, from time to time, to undertake certain investigations. It has been asked in particular to investigate the prices charged for bread, wheaten flour, wheaten meal, mineral hydro-carbon heavy oil, and it was recently required to hold a public inquiry under Section 17 of the Housing Act, 1932, into the cost of materials and appliances used in the building of houses. Additional members were appointed on the Commission for the purpose of the inquiry. The inquiries regarding the price of bread and the manufacturer's price of wheaten flour and wheaten meal are nearing completion, and the Commission expects to be in a position to furnish a report regarding each of these commodities at an early date. The inquiry regarding the manufacturer's price of mineral hydro-carbon oil has been completed and the report has been furnished. The inquiry regarding the prices of materials and appliances used in the building of houses is being actively pursued at present and it is anticipated that reports upon certain sections of the inquiry should be completed at an early date. The first annual report of the Commission, covering the period from its appointment to the 31st December, 1933, has been prepared and submitted. The desirability of holding an investigation into the prices charged for other commodities is under consideration. In addition to the work done by the Commission, the Comptroller of Prices received and investigated a number of complaints during the year in respect of prices charged at particular sales for a number of commodities and, in a number of cases, he was successful in securing reductions in prices.

The next heading of the Estimate deals with Peat Fuel Development. The results of the efforts to popularise and extend the use of turf as a fuel encourage the hope of further success in the present year. It is proposed to work along the same lines as last year, but in a more extensive way. It is intended to purchase immediately an additional 150,000 sacks at 1/7 each, approximately, and it may be found necessary later to purchase additional sacks. The purchase of macerating machinery for experimental work in different parts of the country is also under consideration. The co-operative idea of working the production scheme was a very distinct success last year. Only about 25 societies were effectively organised, because of the late start that was made. Seventy-three societies are now registered and some 30 societies are in course of formation.

The work of the organisation of the societies is being entrusted to the I.A.O.S., and it is proposed to finance that organisation to the extent of £3,200 for that purpose. It is proposed also to set up a central marketing organisation under the auspices of the I.A.O.S., with representation from the Department of Industry and Commerce, to ensure proper distribution of orders, regular supplies, and to eliminate long-distance transport as far as possible. It is estimated that the central marketing organisation will cost the Department about £1,600 during the present year. Publicity in connection with the sale of peat will be entrusted to this central marketing organisation. It is proposed to rely again upon coal merchants to sell the turf, and it is hoped to get from them throughout the country more extensive co-operation than was obtained previously. One of the chief things in this connection is, of course, bog drainage and road making, and certain engineering staff has been employed for that purpose. On another Vote, the Dáil is being asked to provide the money required for the purpose of bog drainage and road making. The function of the department directing these activities will be to ensure that a market will be available for all the high-quality turf which is produced. The producers will be asked to supply the turf this year at the same price as last year—11/6 per ton on rail. There were 314 applications for appointment as approved distributors under the Government scheme and, of these, 179 were appointed in 90 towns throughout the Saorstát. It was, however, considered desirable to suspend the appointment of distributors in January, as turf supplies began to run out. Advertising had to be suspended for the same reason about the same time.

The next item in the Estimate is the Industrial Research Council. An Industrial Research Council was set up a couple of months ago with terms of reference which were submitted to the Dáil and published in the Press. 24 members have been appointed to the Council, representing various branches of science, engineering and industry. The functions of the Council are of an advisory character, and its duty will be to consider and advise the Minister for Industry and Commerce on such matters, coming within its terms of reference, as the Minister may, from time to time, refer to the Council. It is intended that the Council will advise as to the establishment of a library and bureau to contain the records of research associations in other countries, and such technical and scientific publications as have a bearing on existing industries here, or industries likely to be established in the Saorstát. The Council will also have certain duties with regard to the award of research scholarships and will advise, from time to time, as to how the money allocated for this purpose can be best used. The Council will also advise as to the best means to be adopted to stimulate and promote the establishment of industrial research committees in collaboration with either general industrial organisations or other groups of industrial firms.

The next main sub-head deals with the production of industrial alcohol for which a sum of £120,000 is being asked. This matter has already been debated on a Supplementary Estimate which was introduced last year. It is proposed, as Deputies are aware, to undertake the production of industrial alcohol in experimental plant. The construction of the experimental plant, which will take the form of five small distilleries and a central refinery, will be commenced in the present year. A tentative agreement has been made between the Government and a continental firm of experts, as a result of which the technical knowledge, skill and advice of the continental firm will be placed at the disposal of the Government in all matters relating to the design, construction and operation of the plant for a certain period. It will be necessary, of course, to have legislation before an agreement with the firm of experts can be finally concluded, or before the actual operation of the plant and sale of the product can be undertaken. In the meantime it is intended to proceed with the construction of the plant. It is expected that a beginning will be made, in that connection, in the course of a couple of months. It is not possible to say yet to what extent it would be possible to get the plant into operation during the course of the present year, or whether it will be possible to deal with any portion of the present year's crop. Certain delays have occurred in negotiations with other parties, and we have not yet been able to get final information as to the length of time it will take to have the distilleries constructed, but it is hoped to have them constructed before the end of the present year so that some of this year's stock at least will be dealt with. Neither is it possible to state the price at which the raw material will be purchased or the finished product will be available for sale. These are matters yet to be determined and it is for the purpose of getting information that the present experimental work is undertaken. Certain figures are available, and it is on the basis of these figures that the decision to proceed was made.

Did the Minister say that a decision to proceed has been made?

Was that project submitted to the Council of Industrial Research for its advice?

No, that is not the type of matter that would ordinarily be referred to the Council of Research. If we asked their advice they would, no doubt, refer us to the fact that industrial alcohol is made as a commercial proposition by firms in other countries, and that everything to be known about it, therefore, can be obtained from such firms. The Council is only consulted where it is not possible to get information in the ordinary way, and where experiments have to be carried out, having regard to the conditions in this country, the commercial utilisation of raw material here and matters of that kind. There is no technical problem; the only problem is a commercial problem. Industrial alcohol is manufactured from potatoes in a number of countries. There are many methods of doing that, and the experiment is really to find out if the industry can be satisfactorily established here on conditions more favourable than in certain continental countries, and what benefits it is likely to confer upon the country as a whole.

Is the function of the Industrial Council a scientific rather than a commercial one? Does it not give advice as to the commercial value of propositions?

The main purpose of the Council is to give advice on scientific problems, but with due regard to commercial considerations.

Have any problems been referred to them?

Yes, a number in connection with the utilisation of peat, and investigations that have been proceeding in various places in that connection; also the pursuit of a number of investigations into the utilisation of certain seaweeds. These also have been proceeded with.

On the general work of the Department I am rather in a difficulty as to what I ought to say. I have not received from any Deputy an intimation as to his intention of dealing with any particular matter. The functions of the Department cover such a wide field of activity that it would be impossible in detail to deal with all its activities.

During the course of the past two years we have introduced, and passed through the Dáil and the Seanad, 23 Acts, of which the principal were:— The Control of Manufactures Act, the Control of Prices Act, the Road Transport Act, the Railway Act, Trade Loans Act, 1933; the Cement Act, the Unemployment (Assistance) Act, the Control of Imports Act, and there are in course of preparation certain other measures which it is hoped will be brought before the Dáil before the conclusion of the present session, and the nature of which, I think, is well known. In the transport branch the work during the course of the past year was very heavy, arising out of the working of the Road Transport Act and the Railway Act, which were passed in the early portion of the year and came into operation in June. It was necessary to bring into operation the system of licensing the business of merchandise transport by road. A substantial part of that work remains to be done during the present financial year. It will be necessary to make representations to the Railway Tribunal in connection with schedules of charge and other matters under the Road Transport Act of 1933. There have been a large number of applications for compulsory transfer of passenger licences to the Great Southern Railways Company under Part V of the Road Transport Act, and it is anticipated when the Appointed Day is again fixed under the 1934 Act that there will be a large number of applications for acquisition of merchandise licences by the same company. Under the Railways Act of 1933 the whole of the machinery in relation to the standard railway charges, set up under Part III of the Act of 1934, is changed: and it is anticipated that a considerable number of orders will be applied for, under the Act of 1933, for the purpose of discontinuing train services on certain branch lines. Four such applications have been made by the Great Southern Railways and one such application has been made by the Great Northern Railway.

The Great Southern Railways Company have submitted to the Railway Tribunal their proposed superannuation scheme of 1933, and it is at present under consideration by the Railway Tribunal. Work under the Foreshore Act, 1933, has been delayed but steps will be taken, in the current year, to secure a better recognition of the State's title to the foreshore, and better control over the removal of beach material, and the deposit of material on the foreshore. It is antici pated, also, that under the Harbours (Regulation of Rates) Act, 1934, a number of applications for the revision of harbour rates will be made, and possibly some such revision will be initiated in the Department.

I do not think that it is necessary to make a lengthy statement concerning the work of the statistics branch. A preliminary survey following the census of industrial production for 1931 has been published. It was followed by a series of preliminary reports on the various industries. The final report for that year is at present in the hands of the printers. The returns for the census of 1932 have been collected, scrutinised and summarised. The preliminary figures will, I hope, be available shortly. The forms of inquiry for the 1933 census have been issued, and the returns are now coming in. The census of distribution, which, as Deputies are aware, is the first of its kind to be undertaken by any European country, is also in progress. Some 51,000 firms were circularised. By the end of March more than 30,000 replies had been received. It is anticipated that it will be possible to commence publishing the results of that census at a comparatively early period. The usual work of the Department in connection with trade, shipping, agricultural and transport statistics, etc., has been proceeded with.

The main work of the Department of Industry and Commerce is, of course, in relation to the stimulation and direction of industrial development. It would be a very lengthy task to give a review of everything that has been done, or that is in contemplation in that direction. Following the change in policy, consequent on the coming into office of the present Government, the work of that Department was, of course, very greatly increased. Applications for protective duties were dealt with departmentally, and a very large number of these were received. It may interest Deputies to know that two out of three applications for protective duties were rejected as the records of the Department indicate, so that they can appreciate there is still a very considerable amount of work possible in that connection. Ten emergency orders were made during the year imposing duties under the Emergency Duties Act. The other duties which it had been decided to impose were dealt with by Finance Acts of the ordinary kind. There were three references to the Tariff Commission: casks and barrels, prayer books and compounds of lard and fats.

Surely the application in respect to the barrels was not refused?

The question with regard to casks and barrels in general was referred to the Tariff Commission, but they have not yet reported on it.

Was there any need to refer it to them?

Do not ask the Minister.

It was a most complicated subject.

Otherwise the Minister could not put their salaries on the Estimate.

The Minister decided that himself some few years ago.

Some years ago I had no doubt as to what should be done in the case of fish barrels, but the reference in this case to the Tariff Commission covered a much wider field than they had previously reported on. The position in that particular trade has also considerably altered in the meantime. I do not know to what extent it will be possible for me to give a review of the industrial position. The Departmental estimates show roughly that 20,000 additional people have been placed in employment in consequence of the industrial development that has taken place during the course of the past two years. There have been a number of new factories established although the greater part of the development which took place was in the form of an extension of existing factories. Many existing concerns have been very considerably increased. They have undertaken new lines of production which represent the establishment of new industries, in some cases, in addition to the extensions which have taken place in existing concerns. The records of the Department show that there have been over 100 new factories established employing over 20 workers each and some 300, probably smaller in size and mainly workshops registered under the Factories and Workshops Acts, in respect of which information is not available. If, during the course of the discussion on the Estimate, Deputies express a desire for it I can give them a review in respect of any particular industry, but unless that is pressed for I think I can pass on to deal with matters of Departmental administration.

The Trade and Industries Branch of the Department is dealing with the Control of Manufactures Act. That Act came into force on the 1st March, 1933. During the course of the past year cases relating to over 600 firms, carrying on business in the Saorstát, have been investigated, and except as regards a very limited number all these businesses were found to have been carried on in accordance with the law. The question of instituting proceedings in cases of suspected default is at present under consideration. Thirty-two new manufacture licences were issued. The industries concerned were footwear, in which case three licences were issued; clothing, 8; hosiery, 1; household linens, 1; bacon and pork, 2: packing 2; animal medicines, 1: paint and varnish, 3; builder's woodwork, 1; egg case fillers and flats, 2; printing, 1; golf clubs, 1; cycle assembly, 2; marble quarrying, 1; manufacture of oxygen gas, 1; oil refining, 1; and leather goods, 1.

Licences, of course, were refused in a number of cases. Where licences are issued conditions are attached requiring the employment of only Saorstát nationals and the use only of Saorstát materials, where procurable, in connection with the manufacturing process and also in connection with the advertising and distribution of the goods. The departure from the terms of the licence in respect of these matters is only permitted with the written consent of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In certain cases a further condition was added requiring that the licensee would establish his factory in a particular locality.

The employment given by 21 of the 32 firms on the 1st September last was approximately 1,500. Information was only available as to the employment given by these 21 firms. In the majority of cases, of course, where the firms did approach the Department with a view to being dispensed from complying with the conditions, we persuaded the firms, or else they decided themselves, to conform to the terms of the Act by securing the necessary proportion of Saorstát capital in order to engage in manufacturing without licence. Approximately about 70 companies have commenced operations following recommendations of that kind by us.

The intelligence section which was responsible for the publication of the Irish Trade Journal is also embodied in the trade and industries branch and has been of very considerable value to the Department in the collection and preparation of information relating to industrial changes in this and other countries in the course of the year.

In connection with the administration of the Trade Board Acts, a board was established during the year for the packing trade and eight of the existing boards were reconstituted. Requests have been received for the application of the Trade Board Acts to certain additional trades and these requests are at present under consideration. In connection with the administration of the Apprenticeship Act the designation of trades under that Act has been under consideration and notice of intention to apply the Act to the furnishing trade and the hairdressing trade was published in January. No objection has been received to the designation of either of these trades, although application has been received for an extension of the eligible area which was originally confined to Dublin. Trade Boards for the boot and shoe trade, the brush trade, tobacco, women's clothing, tailoring, etc., were consulted as to whether the trade, as defined in the Order establishing the Trade Board should be designated a trade under the Apprenticeship Act. Replies from these boards are not yet completed but so far as the replies have been received they are under consideration.

The functions of the Department in connection with the operation of the Cereals Act have been frequently discussed here in the Dáil, and I do not think it is necessary to make any further reference to them. The importation of flour under that Act was prohibited on the 31st March, 1933. The imports of flour have been consistently reduced in each period since, and the production of flour in the Saorstát mills has been increased. Nine mills have been permitted to increase their capacity; four mills, which were silent, have recommenced operations, and eight mills are at present in course of construction or construction is about to be commenced.

The operation of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act, as amended by the Act of 1933, has also considerably increased the work devolving on the Department. During the past 12 months about 500 applications have been made under that Act. It has been necessary to divide the work of the Advisory Committee and, whereas, previously one advisory committee was sufficient to deal with the applications, we have now four committees meeting weekly considering these applications. Despite the fact that there are four committees there has, of course, been considerable delay in disposing of the applications that have come in. We are endeavouring to get rid of them as rapidly as possible. In a substantial number of cases the State guarantee has been given in respect of the amount proposed to be raised, but in a much larger number of cases the applications have been refused.

The payment of export bounties upon certain industrial products was continued in the course of the year, although the list of the products in respect of which bounties operate has been substantially reduced. It will probably be further reduced at some point in the near future, and although the bounties may not disappear altogether it is not intended that they should constitute a permanent feature of the industrial organisation of the country.

The mines and minerals section of the Department, which deals with administration under the Mining Act and the proportion of the relief of the funds made available for the relief of unemployment allocated to mineral exploitation and development and the matters relating thereto, have also had a considerable amount of additional work placed on it during the year. About 30 applications for mining leases have been received. Four leases were made and the remainder are in different stages of progress. The minerals include gold, silver, slate, marble, calixbar and silica. About 33 grants were made out of the funds provided for the relief of unemployment and allocated to mining development, making a total of £21,000.

In the main the grants were to assist the mining of slate, marble, silica and limestone. These grants have been instrumental in all cases in bringing about increased production. That was particularly so in the case of slate, a commodity the demand for which was far in excess of the supply. The percentage of grants devoted to labour represented from 85 to 100 per cent., so that apart from increased production a considerable amount of direct employment was given. Many persons, both inside and outside the Saorstát, have been manifesting interest in the mineral resources of the country. The Department has arranged for a supply of the latest information relating to mineral deposits and the examination of samples submitted. Every person and group about to undertake mineral development receives the fullest possible assistance and advice from the Department. We have at the moment under active examination a number of interesting proposals for the development of certain mineral deposits.

While the Minister is on minerals, might I ask him if he has received reports with regard to explorations and borings?

I had no report apart from the preliminary report which was mainly designed to enable a decision to be arrived at as to where borings should be carried out. These borings are now in progress. I have received no report, apart from reports as to the progress made with the work, from those engaged in the task.

The borings have been in progress for some time?

They have been proceeding for some time. It is anticipated about 48 borings will have to be made altogether before a really satisfactory report upon the whole area can be submitted.

We made a grant last year for the purpose of the borings. Is the money the Minister mentioned at the outset, additional?

The amount voted last year was £13,000.

I think it was £15,000.

As a matter of fact, the Vote last year was £11,256, and we are asking for £13,000 this year. I think there was some delay in starting the work last year, and the whole of the amount voted was not expended. The greater part of the work remained to be done, but it is now in full progress. I do not anticipate there will be any very substantial delay before the actual work on the spot will be concluded. Of course it will be some time after the conclusion of the work there before the experts will be able to submit their report as to the commercial value of any minerals they may be able to locate.

We have investigations also proceeding into mineral resources in other parts of the country, and it may be necessary to follow up those investigations with boring operations just as in Arigna. Of course that will depend very largely on the nature of the report submitted by the experts carrying out the preliminary investigations.

While the Minister is still on minerals, I might say that with regard to the new beet factories I saw a statement in the newspapers to the effect that the furnaces in these factories are in some cases being constructed to suit Irish coal rather than other coal. Can the Minister tell us something definite about that?

It is intended to use Irish coal almost entirely in the beet factories.

In all three?

At Carlow the furnaces have been reconstructed to permit of the utilisation of Irish coal. That can be said of all four of them. Of course a lot will depend on the experience gained during the first year. It may be found necessary to have some admixture, but the intention is to use Arigna coal at Tuam and 50 per cent. of Irish coal at Thurles and Mallow. To what extent they can utilise Castlecomer coal I cannot say from memory, but I know they have been using it at Carlow with, I think, considerable success. Certain arrangements have been made for the use of Arigna coal upon the railways. I think the Great Northern Railway Company has already commenced to use a proportion of Arigna coal, and it is anticipated the Great Southern Railways will commence in the near future. I was endeavouring to give a sort of rough picture of the activities of the Department during the last year and during the present year. The picture is necessarily fairly rough, because in respect of any single branch of the Department a detailed statement would take a very long time. There have been a number of these activities to which I have not made reference. If Deputies desire to have a more detailed statement upon any particular form of activity, I shall endeavour to give it when I am concluding. I have purposely avoided referring to the administration of the employment branches in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Act and the Unemployment Assistance Act, as presumably matters in that connection will be discussed upon the relevant Votes. If there is any desire to discuss the policy behind the administration of these Acts, this will be the proper time to do it and I will endeavour to deal with any representations that are made in that connection.

There are other matters to which I would like to make reference briefly in order to indicate that they are not being lost sight of. The first is the possibility of developing a satisfactory Saorstát-owned mercantile marine. We have taken the viewpoint that it is reasonable to arrange that 50 per cent. of the traffic which passes between the Free State and Great Britain should be carried in Irish-owned ships and that we should also have a reasonable proportion of the continental traffic from Saorstát ports. Various steps to secure that end have been taken and certain progress has been achieved. A new Saorstát shipping company has been recently brought into existence in connection with the continental trade and it is hoped that we will be able to record some development in respect of cross-Channel services before the end of the year. It is not possible, because of the position in which things are, to give a more detailed statement at present. I merely refer to the matter so that Deputies will appreciate that it is being attended to.

The question of the organisation of a Free State Air Navigation Company and the institution of air services under Irish auspices between Free State towns and from the Free State to other countries is also being dealt with and certain definite proposals are at present being considered by the Department of Industry and Commerce which are likely to lead to the submission of a scheme to the Dáil before the end of the year. It is unlikely that that development will reach the stage of the actual institution of a service this year, but we hope to have brought matters to the point that these services can be inaugurated at the beginning of next year. The construction of aerodromes and the utilisation of the facilities available in this country for the purpose of attracting aerial traffic are also having consideration and certain action is being taken which may have desirable results in that connection.

The activities of the Department have also been devoted during the year to the negotiation of trade agreements with other countries. To some extent the activities of the Department in that connection overlap the activities of External Affairs and to avoid waste of effort an arrangement has been made by which both Departments now act through one channel. Certain arrangements of a tentative nature were made with beneficial results for Saorstát trade. At present negotiations are in progress with a number of countries for the granting of reciprocal preferences or involving an arrangement for the exchange of stated quantities of specified goods. Negotiations with India were initiated early in the year and were adjourned because of the necessity for the Indian delegates to get more specific instructions from their Government. They will be resumed in the very near future. Negotiations and discussions with the Governments of Spain, Belgium, Germany and France have also taken place and tentative arrangements of various kinds have been made pending the conclusion of more permanent agreements, if such agreement are found possible. The activities of the Department have included the investigation of market possibilities in a number of countries and the possibilities of external trade for Saorstát products from these investigations are by no means pessimistic in respect to certain lines. In the case of other commodities, in respect of which market possibilities were investigated, the openings shown to exist did not appear to be very considerable.

I take it that the Minister is referring to products other than agricultural products.

In the main, yes. Although the Department of Industry and Commerce is responsible, under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, for the arranging of trade negotiations in respect of all products, we have to act, in respect of agricultural products, in very close consultation with the Department of Agriculture because there are technical problems associated with the shipment, sale, and handling generally of agricultural goods in regard to which the Department of Agriculture alone is competent to give advice. However, the question of the sale of agricultural goods has been investigated also and in regard to some of these goods prospects are good. I am referring here to what might be called semi-manufactured agricultural goods. The work of the Department in the course of the present year is likely to be very considerable because a number of tentative discussions and negotiations which have taken place are now coming to the point where definite negotiations may be opened up, in which case any agreements made will be submitted for ratification to the Dáil. The type of arrangements made heretofore has been more in the nature of informal agreements than trade treaties, and although they have been adhered to as if they were treaties, nevertheless it is desirable that our trade agreements with a number of countries should be put on a more stable basis than at the present time.

Secret agreements?

Unfortunately, we have no power to make secret agreements, and even if we did make them they would be likely to meet with the same fate as those of our predecessors.

Perhaps the Minister would like to make one.

I am not sure that I would. I do not think so. The bulk of this Estimate is taken up by the industrial alcohol plant and, in so far as that does not account for it, by the peat fuel development, the Industrial Research Council, and the increased staffs necessary to deal with the increased duties devolving on the Department.

I beg to move the motion standing in the name of Deputy McGilligan: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

I do not know exactly what Deputy McGilligan would say in his opening remarks introducing this motion, because the Minister has shown us an extraordinary phenomenon here to-day. He has studded himself round with all the various bits of machinery in his Department, has paraded all the machinery of his Department in front of us, and said: "Is it not very hard to see exactly what people want to know when I am handling a machine that has all these particular sides to it and that has all this particular kind of machinery?" The Minister has shown himself in an attitude and in a frame of mind that the House is not accustomed to see him in. Then, hidden away in the heart of all his difficulties, we see just little statements to the effect that he, apparently, appreciates, nevertheless, what his position is and that, to paraphrase his own words, the principal function of his Department is to direct and develop industry. He told us that during the last two years the policy of his Party has put 20,000 people into additional manufacturing industries, that 100 new factories, with employees in each factory numbering not less than 20, have been set up, and that there are about 300 workshops whose employees number less—20, let us say, an average of ten. That is all the information we have got with regard to industrial development and with regard to the matter which, as I say, is stuck in with all its nibbling at difficulties, and which, as he told us, is the really important work of his Department.

One would imagine that the Minister in introducing his Estimate in a year like this would have forgotten some of the details of his machinery and would have endeavoured to deal with that matter which he considers the most important part of his Department. About six months ago he told the people in the market square of Athy that on the development of industry that took place this year and next year would depend the whole future of the Irish nation. The main development that the Minister has in mind as, apparently, the tit-bit of industrial development in this country, is that we are going to have additional services that will take us up into the air and will export our gradually diminishing production, and that we are going to have agreements made with all the countries that we can possibly make them with, and all as far away as we can possibly get them.

The Minister addresses himself in the House to-day to the important matter of his Department at a time when people are meeting together and trying to do something in industry, people who are co-operating with and consulting one another and trying by mutual advice to help one another in their industrial difficulties. In this morning's newspapers we have the report of the annual general meeting of the National Agricultural and Industrial Development Association. From the Minister's point of view they are not a very critical body. One of them found that the recent budgetary statement of the Minister for Finance showed "an excellent foundation for the reinstatement of prosperity in this country." I would be inclined to say that that speaker is not unsympathetic to the Government. Another found that the present Government had helped the horse industry in every way and had done a great deal for that industry. Anyone concerned with the horse industry in the country will certainly agree that the people who make remarks like that are not unsympathetic to the Government. We find, however, that complaint is made there, that they had the extraordinary position that despite the fact that virtually every commodity was tariffed, we are importing millions of pounds worth of goods, and that the degree of efficiency in the existing factories and in a number of the new factories was not all that might be desired—that some of the factories were operating under conditions that were not desirable, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce was helping to exploit girl labour in the City of Dublin and that he was preventing the development of industry here by placing obstacles in the way of importing machinery from Great Britain. One speaker mentioned that in one instance the President had to be appealed to to get Mr. Lemass to climb down so as to allow factory machinery to be taken away from the North Wall where it was held up. The speaker said, I think, that this factory was catering for 180 workers.

I think the Deputy should name the speaker.

The Minister would not have any difficulty in naming him.

The speaker reported is Mr. T.J. Cullen, Maureen Buildings, Temple Bar, and Mr. S.P. Campbell of the Dublin Typographical Provident Society said that he agreed that conditions of employment were bad, but that the Association could come together and endeavour to improve matters. As I say, these are the things that are pressing on industrialists at the present time, together with the statement which is made in to-day's paper also, that Free State firms were very much handicapped by the invasion of foreign contractors. A previous President of the Federation declared, on 26th April last, that the situation here was bad as a result of the large number of externally controlled manufacturing firms that were opening and had opened in the Free State.

Take the employment of juveniles. It is reported that the members of the confectionery and food preserving trade boards had approved of a recommendation of the sub-committee of the board that juvenile labour in industry should be considerably curtailed. They made a proposal that only 20 per cent. of the employees in the confectionery, preserving and food packing trade were to be under 18 years of age, and they state that, in many other industries, anything from 50 to 75 per cent. of the workers were under age, so that in spite of the great effort that the Ministery are putting forward to develop industry here, those engaged in that industry are pointing out that a very considerable number of juveniles are, and, apparently, have to be employed; that there is a very considerable import of goods that are tariffed in spite of the number of tariffs and in spite of the high tariffs; that the conditions in many of the employments here are bad, and that they are still oppressed by the incoming here of foreign capital. Probably, what is at the bottom of a lot of their difficulties is what is pointed out there, that there is no living to be got out of agriculture to-day, and that the purchasing power of the people is very considerably reduced.

The Minister tells us again that he has set up a certain number of new factories and new workshops. He tells us, for the first time, I think, that a certain number of companies have been started here which it was not necessary to license, because there was the necessary supply of Irish capital in them, but there is no attempt to let the House know to what industries he refers, where they are established or how the distribution of industry throughout the country, which the Minister says is his policy, is going on, and there is no attempt to give any information to the House as to the extent to which capital is being put into new Irish industry here and the extent to which that capital is Irish capital. I suggest to the Minister that when, as he confesses, he regards the things that are going to happen in the development of industry in this country during the current year, as of such importance to the nation and to its future, it is an extraordinary thing that he would not address himself in his remarks here to-day to these things instead of to a general ramble through, say, the halls of his Department. The Minister is usually in a different frame of mind, and in the previous discussions on these matters here there have been long litanies by him of uplift and achievement. We had them in May last year; we had them in August last year; we had them at various societies, at the Chamber of Commerce and the Industrial Federation meetings in the city, but when he comes, in what he confesses to be the critical year, to address the House we hear none of this uplift and we get very little information.

He tells us that his Estimate is dominated, as we see it is dominated, by a vote for £102,000 for the production of industrial alcohol, but it is not necessary to say much about that, because it was all dealt with before. The Minister has a Prices Commission, and he has given it a few jobs to do, and he is proposing to spend a considerable amount of money —£4,309—on it during the year. I think that any worker in the City of Dublin could tell the Minister that his wife is paying, rather reluctantly, about 9d. a stone for potatoes at the present time. The Minister's industrial alcohol proposal is that, as an experiment, he will take from the farmers about 25,000 tons of potatoes, giving them about 2½d. a stone for them, and when he has got those potatoes we are going to have a financial transaction of this particular kind. The Minister has argued here that he is likely to produce industrial alcohol at a price lower than that which it has been produced elsewhere, and lower than that put forward by any of the experts who, arising out of the proposal, have addressed themselves to a discussion of the matter recently. The Minister proposes to pay 35/- for a ton of potatoes, and he says that there will be certain by-products from every ton of those potatoes which can be used as cattle food if they can be fed hot to the cattle. Giving the Minister credit for disposing of every scrap of those by-products, we find that the net cost of the raw materials for the production of a gallon of this alcohol will be 1/4½ and, when the cost of conversion and the overhead charges are taken into account, the Minister is going to be lucky if he turns out a gallon of industrial alcohol at 2/4.

The Minister tells us that his first approach to the subject is that, as an experiment, he is going to do it for only 500,000 gallons, while we import about 40,000,000 gallons of petrol every year. To produce, in this particular way, at a cost of 2/4 a gallon, 500,000 gallons of industrial alcohol is going to have certain financial effects on the country. In the first place, the revenue is going to lose on the 500,000 gallons £16,660, taking the duty at its present rate of 8d.; and, in the second place, the motorist is going to pay extra for his petrol, spreading the additional cost over the whole of the motoring population, at least £33,333, and those who know most about the business in the country have pointed out to the Minister, in elaborate articles recently, that it may cost about 3/- to produce his gallon of alcohol and, in these circumstances, the motorist will have to pay £50,000 additional for his petrol, so that, between the taxpayer and the motorist, the cost of the scheme is going to be from a minimum of £50,000, for which the Minister is told he cannot do it, to a maximum of £66,660, for which the Minister is told he will be lucky if he is able to do it in the earlier years.

The taxpayer and the motorist are going to face approximately £60,000. The farmer is going to get £43,750. He is not going to get that as a pure transfer from those out of whose pockets the £60,000 odd are taken. He is going to be asked to give in return for it 25,000 tons of potatoes. In fact, for every 2½d. of the £43,000 the farmer is going to be asked to give a stone of potatoes. That is the internal position so far as the Minister's proposal affects the farmer, the taxpayer and the motorist. The great return nationally is that the trade balance will be reduced by £8,333.

The Minister, in his long litany of industrial uplift in May last year, dwelt on the development of the industrial alcohol business here. I do not know whether he stated that he was going to put 60,000 acres under potatoes for industrial alcohol purposes, but I think that is what the Minister was proposing to do. If the Minister proposed then to extend his industrial alcohol business beyond the experimental stage and to provide that, say, 25 per cent. of the petrol used here would be Irish-produced spirit, then the revenue would lose £330,000 at the figure of 8d. customs duty, and the motorist would pay not less than £666,000 and, probably, £1,000,000. If the Minister had brought his experiment to a successful industrial conclusion the taxpayer and the motorist jointly would have to find something between a million and a million and one-third; the farmer would receive £875,000 if he gave the potatoes at 2½d. a stone; and the trade balance would be benefited after all that transaction to the extent of £166,000. As I say, that is what the Minister's industrial alcohol proposal comes to, and this is the proposal of a Minister who has a Prices Commission at his disposal to see that people get value for their money; that at the present moment has carefully paid no attention to, say, the price people pay for potatoes, and that the farmer gets; and that certainly must be keeping its eyes very much shut, from the Prices Commission point of view, to what the Minister is proposing to do ultimately for industrial alcohol or to what the Minister is doing on behalf of the people who pay the £102,000 which is marked down for industrial alcohol in his Estimate to-day.

When the Minister in May last was dealing with the industrial alcohol proposal he passed on to another great venture, the turf proposal. He said, as reported in column 916 of the Official Debates of the 11th of May:

"We hope also to give considerable employment in the production of peat as fuel. At present our efforts have been concentrated upon the methods of winning and marketing a first quality peat. Considerable employment can be given in that direction, and a considerable improvement can be effected in the national accounts by reducing the imports of foreign fuel. If various enquiries which we are undertaking at the moment into the possibility of marketing peat in another form prove that difficulties have been overcome and that a method of doing so has been invented, we will be able to establish an industry which will be by far the most important in the country, and which will provide us with a fuel not merely as good but better than coal. Those are some of the things we are planning."

The Minister asks the House to-day to pass an Estimate for £6,845, all for salaries for his peat fuel development. He indicated in his remarks that he was going to develop a central marketing organisation. I do not know whether that means that there is going to be a Supplementary Estimate for additional expenses in connection with the central marketing organisation. The details that are given in the Estimate make no suggestion that the expenses of the central marketing organisation are included in the Estimate which is before the House. The Minister is apparently not holding out any prospects of going ahead with that development in connection with the peat industry which he indicated on the 11th of May of last year as likely, if gone ahead with, to be the biggest industry in the country. He tells us to-day that he is confining his proposals with regard to turf to the same kind of thing that went on last year.

When the Minister for Education, in the absence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, was introducing the scheme last year this is what he said, as reported in column 578 of the Official Debates of 14th June:

"The Government has been considering the possibility of developing our bogs on a large scale, thus giving a considerable amount of employment to people in the poorer areas of the country who are not reached, or who may not be reached, very often, by the setting up of other industries, the building of factories and so on. These are often the poorest and most congested districts in the country, and the Government has been particularly anxious to do what it can to help the increasing population in these areas to find a livelihood. We have taken steps, accordingly, to set up an organisation to bring about the development and the use of peat fuel. It is proposed to set up a small staff to carry out that work."

A fairly considerable amount of money was voted last year for it, and the fuel scheme began. A considerable amount of money was spent on advertising. Quite a large number of sacks were purchased and distributed around the country. Anyone who regarded the expected developments from the light in which the words of the Minister for Education would suggest they were going to take place, must have been pretty well astounded at the method of distribution of the sacks that were to be provided for the turf scheme which was going to assist people in out of the way districts where industry was not expected to show its face. Seventy-five per cent. of the 86,000 sacks were distributed in Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Wexford. If it is a fact that they were distributed to coal merchants in those places, it would be interesting to have some information from the Minister as to where exactly the turf came from.

The only information we have as to how the scheme worked out is information that we had from the experience of the Board of Assistance in the City of Dublin. It was stated by the Minister for Education at the time that the price which would be paid to persons delivering the turf in the sacks at a railway station would be about 10/6 per ton. It was indicated that the railways would carry the turf at a flat rate, and that it would come at the same rate from Achill as it would from the Midlands. The Minister for Defence, who was giving a hand to the Minister in the matter, said that, where coal was being used by people at 40/- a ton, turf at 24/- a ton would be just as good.

When the Department of Local Government allocated £13,000 for the delivery of free fuel to the poor of Dublin to begin from December last, they found that they were not able to get any turf delivered to them during December, and that they were not able to get any turf delivered during January. They wanted 450 tons per week, and not until the last day of January was a sod of turf delivered. What were the taxpayers asked to pay for the turf? The quotation that the Dublin Board of Assistance got was that the merchants would distribute turf to the poor people in the city at 38/4 per ton inside the canal boundary, but that if the poor of Ringsend or Rathmines were being served under the scheme it would cost 40/- per ton. The Minister has a Prices Commission and a Controller of Prices. Some person put his eagle eye on the fact that bellmen selling coal in the City of Dublin were charging the unfortunate poor 30/- per ton for coal. The Controller of Prices intervened and the Minister informed us in reply to a question the other day that the price of coal was reduced by 1/-. The bellmen were made reduce the price of coal from 30/- to 29/- as a result of the intervention of the Controller of Prices. But when the Dublin Board of Assistance considered that 38/4 per ton for turf, 40/- delivered in Rathmines, was a bit too much, apart altogether from what they had heard from the Ministerial Benches here as to what the price of turf would be and the price of its carriage, they submitted the matter to the Minister and the Minister told them that the price was reasonable.

When the Supplementary Estimate was introduced, the Minister's great scheme was said to be an experimental one. Is it in the experimental stage still this year, or have we come to the point at which the scheme will pay for itself? Obviously the Minister has not reached the point at which the scheme is going to pay for itself, as he provides for an expenditure of £6,845 this year for propaganda purposes really, because I take it that the coordinating and linking-up work of the officials is a matter of propaganda and helping people out by advice and a kind of fosterage, rather than actually doing any work for them. Assuming the taxpayer has to pay that, are we still going to be in the position that turf, delivered in the City of Dublin is going to cost 38/4, and 40/- per ton when delivered to the poor? It was indicated by the Minister some time ago that the cause of these high prices is that the turf has to be delivered in small quantities. It is delivered in small quantities and probably to the top of tenement houses. But bellmen's coal, which has been forcibly reduced from 30/- to 29/- per ton, is delivered in small quantities, and when the Lord Mayor of Dublin organises a coal fund and distributes coal to the same class of people in the City of Dublin it is delivered in small quantities and delivered to the top of tenements. While turf costs 40/- per ton delivered in Rathmines, that coal can be delivered at 36/6.

If, as well as assisting the scheme by voting £6,845 for propaganda and direct official assistance, this particular type of turf industry is also going to be assisted by the paying of these high prices from State funds, will the unfortunate people in the West of Ireland and in the out-of-the-way districts be informed, through some of the official machinery that the Minister has, and for which the taxpayer is paying, of the magnificent prices that can be got for turf in the City of Dublin? If the taxpayers are paying 40/- per ton for turf for the poor of Rathmines and if the railway company are going to bring it from Achill at 6/- per ton, just as they would bring it from the midlands, I think that the people that the Minister for Industry and Commerce spoke about who are in out-of-the-way districts, where not much of the new industrial development is seen, ought to be informed by means of propaganda or direct approach that such a valuable market for their produce exists.

On the threshold of this important year, almost the last lap of hope that the Minister would give the nation to understand it has in the race for industrial development, after industrial alcohol is turf, and that is the position up to the present of the turf scheme which the Minister speaks about. The Minister has not said anything about cement and I feel that the cement industry ought to be put in the same category as the Minister's turf scheme and the industrial alcohol scheme. I should like to know from the Minister what exactly he has to say about cement. A final word might be said about turf. There is a certain type of Gaelic Leaguer who goes to the Gaeltacht very seldom but who is called "Lá breagh." People down the country speak of this type as the "Lá breaghs." The Minister's turf scheme is certainly one of the "Lá breaghs" of our industrial development movement. If the Minister thinks that anything is going to come out of this scheme for any of the people connected with the turf industry, I should like to hear him develop it in a serious way.

The Minister, as I say, glossed over again his reference to the important function of his Department—the development and the direction of industry. He gave us no information, good, bad or indifferent, as to the classes of industry that have developed or their distribution, or any of the other matters that are troubling industrialists, such as juveniles, capital and aliens. There is one thing that has characterised the Minister's attitude in the House in the matter of supplying information and that is that he either refuses it or prevaricates about it. Various questions have been raised from time to time here dealing with a matter which is the most important part of his Department's work according to himself, and we have never got a straight answer from him on anything. The Minister was questioned in October, 1932, arising out of contradictory statements made by himself and the President at that time in different areas. When I asked him in connection with statements made with regard to the new factories if he would state the address or location of each new factory, the class of goods produced, the amount of capital, nominal and paid up; whether the control was native or foreign, and the number of men and women, boys and girls at present employed, the Minister said it would take too much work to supply the information. The Minister said:

"I will consider laying on the Table of the Dáil at a later date a report of the kind indicated in the Deputy's question."

A few months later the Minister developed the idea that he was going to have an industrial directory. That was in January, 1933. Fifteen months have passed since. At a meeting yesterday of the body about which I spoke already, the National Agricultural and Industrial Development Association—I am quoting the Irish Times, but the Minister will find the very same remarks or, if not exactly the very same remarks, similar remarks with the edge taken off them, in his own paper—one of the speakers stated that they should consider the publication of a directory of Irish manufactures, and that it had been postponed because they had been told that action was about to be taken in other quarters. The secretary of the organisation said that “she learned on the previous day that the Free State Ministry for Industry and Commerce was publishing a directory, but only 2,000 copies at 2/- or 2/6, which would be bought in one day, whereas they intended publishing 250,000 free of cost, and these would have been published had they not been told that the Government was to publish the directory.”

The Minister has from time to time accused speakers in the Opposition of making statements that would undermine the confidence of the people in the Irish industrial development that was going on, but no one has done more to produce a want of confidence in the people than the Minister himself. As I say, as early as October, 1932, he was boasting about the number of factories that were here. There were so many factories for the making of barbed wire and so many factories for the making of shovels, but he would not tell us where they were, because it might be unfair to the other people engaged in the industry. Then other difficulties crowded around him. He was induced to make statements that were not correct. He was induced to call things factories that were not factories, and anyone who had any touch at all with the type of industrial development that was taking place in a way about which Deputy Norton had to complain, and under conditions that he called Babylonian, must have been concerned about what was going to happen.

I put the Minister certain questions, first and foremost, to draw his attention to the fact that there were aliens getting into back-lane industries and undermining industries that were pretty well established here already and that had established a fairly decent standard for their workers. The question arose particularly in connection with the furniture and upholstery industries, but the conditions existed in other industries too. Brought into contact with them as a result of the conditions in the furniture industry, I came up against a situation which I thought should be exposed, and I asked the Minister, in respect to these new factories, if he would say— this was in November last—how many of the factories, which he was boasting had been opened as new factories, were opened by persons with the names of Matz, Gaw, Lucks, Galette, Keye, Wigglesworth, Woodington, Vogel, Witstan or Whizton, Caplan or Caplal, Hastello, Silverstein, Boys, Mendelberg, Levins, Vereker, Minster, Michaels, Griew, Levy, Mennel, or Yaffe.

It is like the Derby call over.

The Minister replied and said that the answer to the first part of the question was four; that two factories were engaged in the manufacture of women's clothing, one in the manufacture of furniture and one in packing. But even on his own statement he had already admitted another name in connection with the boot industry. The Minister was, in fact, claiming as factories, at that time, so-called factories or establishments that were being run or were being claimed as factories by more than four of these persons, because in the wholesale ready-made clothing there were in fact persons with the name of Mendelberg and Matz. There were a Levy and a Minister connected with the upholstery trade.

What was the question?

The question was how many of the factories claimed by the Minister had these names.

That is, factories opened in that year? There are quite a number of firms with names similar to those which have been in existence for the past ten and, in some cases, for 50 years. I did not claim I opened them.

I can tell the Minister he did claim it and that he had in mind these factories. Take the furniture industry. There was a so-called factory in the name of Levins, another in the name of Yaffe, another in the name of Griew. Then in medical and veterinary preparations we had the names of Wigglesworth, Boys and Galette. He had packing factories with the name of Gaw and Mennel, and a hosiery factory in which some of the owners were Vogel, Witstan and Caplal, and women's light clothing factories with the names of Michaels, Lucks, Hastello and Silverstein. We would have got lists of the new factories and something in the form of an industrial directory earlier from the Minister, if he could reconcile his statement with regard to new factories with his dislike of showing that these were the type of people that were starting what were called at that time new factories.

Surely the Deputy is not serious. If we put in the name of Jacobs or Guinness, would the Deputy say that they are foreign firms?

I would not say any such thing nor would I have anything to say to firms of the name of Matz, Gaw or Yaffe if they appeared on the Minister's list with a reasonable showing that they were new factories.

Most of these are old ones.

The Minister claimed them as new, and one of his difficulties in the preparation of an industrial directory was that while he would like to deny these names, he could not have produced his directory and show a list of factories that would have squared with his original figures. The sooner the Minister is prepared to tell us the bad as well as the good, in what is happening industrially, the better it will be for the sound development of Irish industry.

Will the Deputy talk about the good as well as the bad?

I want to drive the Minister to talking about the good. I shall talk about the good and then work back a little bit. The Minister says he has put 20,000 people into new industrial employment during the last two years, that he has been the cause of establishing 100 new factories, each employing more than 20 persons, and 300 new establishments that may at least be called workshops, each employing a number of persons but not as many as 20. On the good side of things the Minister has said that he has finished his job in a certain number of matters. These matters are glass bottles, soap and candles, sugar and confectionery, hosiery, wholesale clothing for men, furniture, constructional steel, wire manufacture, certain class of galvanised work and timber work as far as planing and dressing of wood is concerned. He has done his job in these particular lines but, as far as any information he has given to the House goes, the only industry in which we can congratulate him, in bringing about increased employment, as far as he has told us, is in the hosiery line, in the boot and shoe line, and in motor bodies. But he has given no information of any kind with regard to any of the other matters in respect of which, in August last, he said his job was done, that would enable us to congratulate him. We can say, as far as boots and shoes are concerned, that employment has increased there from 1,205, the last figures that are available for our period of administration, to 2,450, the last figures quoted by him. We can congratulate him on that new employment. I do not think the Department's statistics for April are out, but, if the Minister was dealing with different operations of the Department, it would be interesting to know why some of the periodic returns are running further and further away from the date that ought to represent the date of publication.

I do not think that is so.

In connection with the increased imports of boots and shoes would the Minister tell us the significance of the fact, in connection with this important industry, that for the first three months of this year as compared with the first three months of last year, they have increased so substantially? The value of imports for the first three months of last year was £209,553 and this year £264,265.

Is the Deputy quoting boots and shoes made of leather now?

I am quoting from page nine of the Trades Statistics for March, 1934, from the item marked "boots and shoes, etc." I take it that is a summary of leather, skin, heavy boots, children's boots, and perhaps rubber and other materials.

The explanation of the figure, if it includes rubber and other materials, is that there was an enormous quantity imported in the early portion of the year, so much so that we had to impose a duty by way of Emergency Order, in order to check down importation.

To give details: women's and girls' shoes of leather or skin show an increase from £51,212 to £57,930. Light shoes, men's and boys', have increased from £50,320 to £68,545; light shoes, women's and girls', from £85,152 to £102,915. There is a reduction in the case of men's and boys', heavy, from £11,394 last year to £9,641 this year. Women's and girls', heavy, increased from £13,300 to £20,222 and there is a fall in the case of children's boots. There is an increase in shoes of rubber and other materials.

With the exception of a small decrease in men's, heavy, and boy's shoes, and a small decrease in the case of children's shoes, in every branch of shoes that is separately enumerated in the Trades Statistics, there has been an increase of imports. While praising the Minister for an increase of employment in the boot and shoe industry, I would like to know if he has any comment to make on the other figures. I would like to know also if he has any comment to make on the increased employment of 1,245 persons, when placed against the Fianna Fáil promise of increased employment for 5,801 persons in the boot industry. The next thing the Minister, from the point of view of the numbers of persons employed, has to be congratulated upon is hosiery, where employment has increased, according to the last figures available during the period of the previous Administration, the figure being 1,237 in 1928, to 2,269, being the figures available up to September last. Compared with the first three months of last year there has been an increase in the imports of hosiery, from £66,852 to £78,853 during the first three months of this year, and the increase of 1,032 persons has to be placed alongside the Fianna Fáil promise of additional employment in the hosiery line of 6,395 persons. That is one critical remark against the praise given to the Minister in connection with the hosiery industry, that employment has increased by 1,032 persons against a promise of 6,395, with increasing imports in the first quarter of this year, although the Minister said in August last that his job was done.

Consumption was obviously increasing.

It must be among farmers' wives and daughters, that Deputy Kelly talked about.

Someone must be buying more.

What I am concerned about is employment. The Minister has given additional employment in the hosiery line. His performance is less than one-sixth of his promise, and that is so a certain number of months after he told the House that his job was done. As the Minister is looking for praise, the next bit of praise I will give him is that he has increased—I will not say at what cost—employment in connection with the motor bodies industry from 309— the last figures available during the term of the previous Administration— to 950, and then my praise stops.

I should be prepared to praise the Minister further if he would give us information to show that praise was deserved. He has not given us that information. I should certainly be prepared to withhold criticism for a reasonable period if he would undertake to explain, in respect of those industries of which he said, seven or eight months ago, that the job was done, what the position is from the point of view of wages, employment and capital invested.

There is another side to this job-done business. The Minister for Finance, when questioned last night about the position with regard to tobacco, said that considerably increased employment had been given. I suggested to him that that increase was not reflected in the figures issued in respect of the tobacco industry. I find that I am borne out by the figures of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. On the 1st September last, the last day for which we have information, there were 72 fewer persons employed in the manufacture of tobacco than there were on the last day for which he has allowed our figures to be published—the 1st September two years ago. In an industry which had only 500 persons employed in 1922, there were two years ago 2,317 persons employed. The position in September last was that there were 72 persons fewer employed. Nevertheless, the Minister for Finance tried to pass it off on us last night that there was a considerable increase in employment.

The Minister has told us that, in respect of sugar confectionery, the job is done. In fact, there were fewer persons employed in that industry in September, 1931, than there were in September of 1928. In September, 1931, 5,096 were employed. About 450 persons have been added by the Minister to this industry. But the Minister has not only told us that that job is done, so far as the Fianna Fáil Government is concerned, he has told the House that employment and output have been doubled. As regards shirt-making, the Minister has added very little to the increase by us from 410 in 1924 to 1,762 in 1931. The Minister has added 304 there. In furniture, we are told that the job is done. But it is done without any additional employment being given.

There has been a certain amount of propaganda as to the increased output in the manufacture of soap and candles. But there are no Ministerial figures to back up that argument. There is a Ministerial visit and a speech suggesting that there has been great development in that particular line, but no figures, good, bad or indifferent, have been given to support the Minister's enthusiasm. The Minister was very mild in his approach to the discussion of the Estimate for his Department to-night. I ask him to face up to the situation and, in some industrial publication, to tell us about the industries in respect of which he says the job is done. I ask him to pick out these industries and tell us what the position is, from the point of view of keeping the undertaking he gave the House when he started his policy of refusing information here with regard to industry. Will he produce his directory of Irish manufactures? There is no use in the Minister in his glib, politic kind of way saying that criticism of his policy is detrimental to the credit of the country and to the serious development of industry here. What is detrimental to the proper development of industry here is the Minister's known policy of obscuring the position and prevaricating about it when he is driven to say something. I think that it is nothing short of a scandal that the Minister should have approached the situation by saying, in October, 1932, that he would consider the laying of a Report on the Table giving particulars of industrial developments, that a few months after he should have said that a directory of Irish manufactures was being prepared and that we should have the excuse from him recently that development is so rapid that the men in the office cannot keep abreast of it. The Minister has been playing the part of obscurantist about this directory. Was there any notification to manufacturers earlier than March of this year, when an advertisement appeared in the newspapers, that the Minister was preparing an industrial directory? Will the Minister say that he approached manufacturers about the matter earlier than that? I do not believe he can. The secretary of an industrial organisation virtually suggested to-day that it was almost the first time he heard of this proposal. When the Minister takes up an attitude like that with regard to an important publication, it shows that he does not take his responsibilities seriously and that he is doing a very considerable amount of damage to the Irish industrial position.

The Minister should deal with the complaints made with regard to the employment of juveniles. The suggestion that foreign contractors are excluding a number of native manufacturers from getting work in the country is a matter with which the Minister should also deal. The complaint made, that many of the new factories are foreign controlled, is a complaint which ought to be dealt with by the Minister in view of his policy and of the powers he has taken to control the influx of foreign capital, so that it would not dominate and control Irish industry.

I listened with considerable interest to the Minister's speech. I do not know whether he was responsible for the form or the text of his speech or whether it was just one of those Departmental memoranda handed to Ministers, for the contents of which they are not always responsible. It struck me as being rather an extraordinary speech to come from the Minister. I once knew a Deputy by the name of Lemass but whether he is the same as the Minister for Industry and Commerce, I do not know. The Minister might as well have been addressing the House to-day as managing director or chairman of a million-pound company, because his whole review of his Department consisted of expressions of appreciation of what was being done according to industrial and commercial standards. Listening to his speech, the delivery of which occupied more than an hour, I heard not a single word from the Minister about the social activities of his Department, nor did I hear a single indication given as to the measures of social reform which his Department propose to carry out. Not a word was said about the human material engaged in the industries which the Minister was surveying. We were told about peat, industrial alcohol, transport, airways and many things— all from the commercial standpoint— and not a single word about the human material engaged in these industries. One might have forgiven the Minister if he had spoken for an hour about what he proposed to do in the way of introducing new legislation regulating the use of factories and workshops. One could have listened to the Minister for two hours if he had told the House of the imperfections of the factory system. One could have listened to him for three hours if he had told the House what he proposes to do with the sweat shops and child-farms that exist in the City of Dublin. One could have listened to him for four hours if he had told the House what he proposed to do in the way of shortening the working week.

We did not hear a single word about the inadequate factory inspection and the exceptionally low fines inflicted for breaches of the Factories and Workshops Act. If anyone breaks the regulations under the Factories and Workshops Act one may be satisfied that an offence is committed, but in reality it is almost impossible to get a conviction so wide are the loopholes and so unsatisfactory is the law in this matter. The Minister knows perfectly well, and his Department has got plenty of complaints to show it, that factory inspection is entirely inadequate in the Free State to-day. It was always bad. Now the Minister tells us that there are 100 additional factories in which not less than 20 people each are employed and over 300 factories additional with less than 20 people, so that we have a total addition to our present factories of 300 or 400 factories. Surely 11 industrial inspectors employed to carry out the work of inspection in the old factories, plus an addition of 300 new factories, is totally inadequate for the work. I would ask the Minister, does he consider it possible to carry out factory inspection in the whole of the Free State with 11 inspectors? Every trade union and every trade unionist who has any knowledge of the condition of the factories and workshops in Dublin to-day knows that the present inspectorial staff, under the Factories and Workshops Act, is totally inadequate for the duties that have to be discharged. I think the Minister might have devoted some of the money that he is going to spend in the development of industrial alcohol in employing additional factory inspectors. If he did so the benefit that he would confer upon the community would be much greater, I think, than will be conferred upon them by industrial alcohol. There is a crying need for up-to-date factory and workshop legislation in the Free State. Anything can be called a factory in the Free State. Work can be started in a kitchen, 15 feet below the level of the ground, and yet it is called a factory. It could be up in a loft and be called a factory. It could be in a back yard and still be called a factory. It could be in a building where the rain comes in from four sides and where there is no ventilation, no sanitary arrangements, no heating and yet it is called a factory under the Factories and Workshops Act. If we have 300 additional factories in the country, and if we are to have more, I suggest to the Minister that that makes it all the more necessary, before further vested interests are created, that an effort should be made to introduce a Factory and Workshops Bill in order to regulate properly factory and industrial conditions and life in this State. Legislation should be introduced to regulate the size of the factory, to define what a factory is; to regulate the lighting, the heating, the ventilation and the cubic space, and to provide proper sanitary accommodation and rest rooms for the workers engaged in industry. Not a word did we hear in the Minister's long speech as to what he proposes to do in regard to that matter.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the furniture industry. Everybody knows that the position of that industry at the present moment is a perfect scandal. There are many very well regulated furniture factories employing adult male labour, paying trade union rates of wages. These legitimate firms are handicapped in the open market by people from Whitechapel and Billingsgate starting in back yards and working with the aid of a few young children. They slap together a few pieces of wood, daub them over with polish, and then make them up with a mark on them in connection with Irish industry.

And get the Irish trade mark displayed upon them?

I do not know what trade mark they get. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is himself a Deputy for the City of Dublin, and he knows well what is happening in Dublin. The new organisation known as the Federation of Irish Industries has a liaison officer between it and the Minister's Department. He will tell the Minister that in the furniture industry a lot of sweated jobs have grown up, where young children are employed, where no decent wages are paid, yet, later on, when an Industry and Workshop Bill is introduced we will hear squeals going up from the owners of these shops not to be driven out of existence. They ought never have been allowed to come into existence, and we should have had factories and workshops legislation to prevent such places as these from growing up. I have no use for any industry that cannot pay a decent wage. Many of these places carry on only by employing young workers under conditions that would not be tolerated in any Eastern, not to mind European country.

If so, it is with the connivance of the unions.

The Minister knows perfectly well that that is not true. Most of the trade unionists in the Minister's own constituency will tell him that these institutions are not connived at by trade unionists. Many of these trade unionists in his own constituency have asked the Minister to introduce legislation to ensure that industry should be carried on under proper conditions and that decent rates of wages should be paid. These so-called factories are a menace to decent firms that pay decent rates of wages. The Minister might well have devoted some part of his speech to that subject. We know that there is a most cruel and inhuman exploitation of child labour in connection with these places. Young girls who cannot secure any kind of clerical employment because there is a surfeit of this labour, are forced to go into these new factories, and are employed at diabolically low rates and exploited for a 54-hour or a 58-hour week at scandalously low rates of wages.

Probably against the law. Why does not the Deputy give the information necessary himself?

I gave the Minister the information 18 months ago, and he knows quite well the conditions that prevail. Let him send one of his eleven inspectors to investigate the conditions in these places.

They have been set up under the trades boards, and if the employees are not properly paid their employers are liable to prosecution.

I do not care whether the trade boards are used to justify this, but I say that the wages are scandalously low.

They are the rates the unions agreed to.

Nothing of the kind. The chairman of the trades boards is here behind me. What the unions are concerned with is getting the highest possible rate, but it is the chairman who fixes the rate. Trade unions only regard the trades boards as a desperate remedy for a desperate disease. No trade union in a well-organised industry would touch a trade board with a forty-foot pole. The chairman of the trades boards, who is sitting behind me, knows that very well. The reason is, that trades boards go hand-in-hand with sweated rates of wages. Then we had the Minister recently—apparently when he was allowed to express his own views he did it excellently—going off to a meeting of the Wolfe Tone Branch of Fianna Fáil in Trinity College and there talking of a social and economic policy. May I say that I consider he made a very fine speech on that occasion, dealing with the way in which industry should be regulated and suggesting the lines upon which our economic development should take place. He suggested, for instance, that in many countries it had, apparently, been found necessary to regulate and to introduce shorter working hours. If I understood the Minister's speech correctly, he gave his benediction to a scheme for reducing working hours. In saying that, I think I am fairly interpreting what the Minister said on the occasion. But there was not a word in his speech here as to proposals from the Department of Industry and Commerce in connection with a reduction of working hours. As I said on a former occasion in this House, it is nothing short of economic lunacy to have one section of the people working 48, 50 and, in some cases, 60 hours a week, while you have 80,000 people denied the opportunity of getting work. Any sensible nation, not concerned with the mere exploitation of human beings, would do something to reduce working hours in order to ensure the absorption into industry of those who are unable to secure employment because of the very long hours worked by some.

I pass on to a question touching a number of employees with the smaller bus companies. I understand that the transfer of their passenger-carrying licences to one monopoly in the City of Dublin has been approved of, and that the transfer is likely to take place at a fairly early date. Complaint is made by the staffs that, instead of securing employment with the company which is going to take over these smaller companies they are losing their employment, and that new staffs are being taken on by the merger company. If that is so, it represents a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. The Minister piloted the measure through the Oireachtas which makes that possible, and I suggest to him that he should come in at an early stage and use the good offices of his Department to try to secure employment for as many of the employees of the smaller bus companies as are likely to lose it under this merger.

The Minister, in the course of his speech, referred to the Trade Loans Guarantee Acts. He mentioned that in certain cases a State guarantee had been given, and that in other cases it had been refused. I would like to know from him whether, in considering applications from firms seeking the benefits of these Acts, any attention is paid to the rates of wages paid by them. A particular industry in the County Kildare recently, I understand, got a guarantee enabling it to obtain a few thousand pounds at 2½ per cent. from a bank. If my information, which has been published in the local Press, is correct, it surprises me that the State should guarantee a loan or facilitate in any way a firm of that kind, in which the wage for adults—men of 40 and 50 years of age—is less than £1 a week. That seems to me to be nothing short of a scandal. In some cases the wage paid by that firm is as low as 16/- and 17/- a week. These figures have appeared in the local Press and have not been contradicted. If it is possible for the Minister to do so, I suggest to him that he should recall that guarantee until such time as this firm pays decent rates of wages.

The Deputy will have to be more specific and mention the town.

There is no industry in Naas now.

It is not Naas.

The point that I want to put to the Minister is this: that in considering applications for trade loans there should not be a repetition of that class of case. The advisory committee ought to make sure that if the State is going to assist industry it will only assist those which pay decent rates of wages and not those paying scandalously low rates of wages, such as the one I have just mentioned.

Yesterday we had a discussion on boot factories and probably part of the discussion to-day will take the form of further references to boot factories. I would like to know if it is within the knowledge of the Minister that some of these boot factories, ostensibly Irish owned, which have started here under the protection of tariffs imposed by this State in order to protect its own industries, have a very strong objection to trade unions taking any steps to protect the interests of the workers.

There is a national agreement.

Yes, there may be a national agreement, but there is a conspiracy on the part of the people connected with some of those factories to prevent the workers joining the union of their own choice. The Minister was at the opening of one of the factories that I have in mind. The workers in it wanted to join a union of their own choice, as they were quite entitled to do, but they were told by their employer that they must not join that particular union; they must join another union, although the union they wanted to join was the one which, in the first instance, attempted to organise the workers. The Minister ought to make it clear to those people that, if we do permit them to come in and use foreign money here because it is going to yield a substantial dividend to them, the workers of Ireland still have the right to choose the union they will belong to: that while these people are given the right to come in here to manufacture and sell boots they have not been given the right to buy the souls and the minds of our working classes.

There are two other matters in which I am keenly interested to which I desire to refer. Would the Minister say what has become of the two pet Government rabbits—one of which is the decentralisation of industry? That used to be a strong point in the Government's policy at one time though I never believed in it. I do not believe in it now. I do not believe that you can have decentralisation on the basis of competition. You can have it on the basis of quotas and of co-operation. Where, however, you are going to have industry run on a competitive basis, then the big business in the big town will prevent for all time any hope of the smaller industry developing. If you want to have decentralisation in industry you must regulate it as you have regulated the flour industry. You must have a quota system with a fixed output for each factory. That is the only way in which you can decentralise industry. You can never have it on the present basis of unrestricted competition.

I would like to know from the Minister if the Government have given up completely any attempt to introduce industrial decentralisation by any means, including the means I have suggested of a fixed output per factory, or by some definite scheme of co-operation which will eliminate unrestricted competition. So long as unrestricted competition continues it will kill any attempt at decentralisation in industry. The Government have had two years to show what the decentralisation of industry has done. They have this baby of decentralised industry. If they want it to develop into a healthy economic citizen of this country they must, I suggest, nurture it on the lines I have indicated. But if this child is going just to be what I am afraid it is, then the sooner it is killed and buried the better.

Will the Minister now tell us how many new industries have been established in the last two years in County Kildare; how many have been established in Offaly; how many have been established in Leix; how many in Carlow and how many in Wexford? Let the Minister tell us, under this policy of decentralisation of industry, what factories have been established in these five counties? Will the Minister tell us the total number of workers employed in the factories so established there and the total number under the heads of men, women, boys and girls? Will he tell us what is the average wage paid to men, women, boys and girls apart from managerial salaries in the factories established in these five counties? That would be a fair test of the efficiency and the effectiveness of the Government's decentralisation policy.

And what is the capital?

It is easy to ascertain what the capital is. Have the Government abandoned all hope of decentralisation and, if not, what hope have they of ensuring that this child of decentralisation will live and thrive? None, so far as I can see. A fair test would be to say what industries have been started in the past two years in these five counties I have mentioned. These, from the point of view of the Minister's policy, are five favoured counties, and if decentralisation is to have any growth at all we ought to begin to see its germination there. Then again there is the question— about which we have heard so much in the past—of the economic council. We heard a good deal about that from the Minister, who was very eloquent about an economic council, when he was on the Opposition Benches.

The Deputy should not quote me.

Very well. It was the President then. The President, as the Leader of the Party opposite, used to tell the House frequently and eloquently about the necessity for the establishment of an economic general headquarters. He used to tell them of it as something that would plan, something whereby a committee would be formed to help our industries, a piece of machinery which would be the eyes, ears and brains of our economic life. They have had two years now in which to create that machine, but not a single thing has been done to create that economic general headquarters.

We have the extraordinary spectacle of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who, at one time, did not believe that the Tariff Commission should be composed of civil servants, now, apparently, converted to complete faith in civil servants as part of the machine to help to alter the economic and industrial policy of the country. I give the Minister credit for an amazing amount of energy. I give him credit for very good intentions industrially and economically, and for the enormous amount of work he does. But I am satisfied that a single Minister in charge of his Department of State cannot do all that should be done in this matter.

The best way to do that work is through the establishment of an economic council, which will survey our industrial life and plan to improve its industrial needs and make sure that all its requirements are met at the earliest possible opportunity. In any case, we are entitled to know from the Minister whether the Government has thrown over the principle of the question of an economic council or an economic general headquarters. At one time that we were to have such a council was an important part of their policy. We are now entitled to know whether with decentralisation of industry that policy has been jettisoned. I understand the Minister invited a discussion of unemployment assistance on this Estimate, and the Ceann Comhairle made no demur.

I think the details of administration might well arise on the Estimate, but any question of policy on these Estimates would not. This would not be the proper place to raise it. We can deal with questions of detail, not policy, upon the Estimates.

On a point of order. I think we ought——

I do not think the question of policy will arise so much as the question of administration. If that be so, we ought to deal with it solely on this Vote or on the Unemployment Insurance Vote.

I am entirely in the hands of the House.

I do not think we can get very far by dealing with part of it now and part of it on the Unemployment Insurance Vote.

I suggest that what was the Minister's intent was that we ought to keep to a separate discussion on the Unemployment Insurance Estimate and the bits of it that will split over to this Vote will be very small.

There are certain rules of order which preclude Deputies from raising any question of policy in this manner on the Estimates. It is only questions of administration that can be raised.

Why not by agreement?

I do not object to the whole question being dealt with on the Estimate.

I take it the House has already registered its decision upon Unemployment Assistance and we cannot re-open it now.

It is with administration we are concerned. Passing from the purely industrial and commercial work of the Minister's Department, I should like to ask him whether any decision has been arrived at in connection with insurable workers when engaged on arterial drainage schemes or employed on other schemes carried out by the Board of Works? So far as I understand no definite decision has been arrived at in this matter. I think something should be done to get a definite decision on the whole position as it is at present. Many workers engaged on the Barrow drainage scheme have no reason to thank the Minister for the manner in which they have been treated. There were 700 workers employed on these schemes. They are now unemployed and have no cards stamped. I submit that their cards should be stamped while employed on that scheme. They have been placed in their present position by the procrastinating attitude of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

The decision was given six months ago and the organisations of the men concerned were told that if they disagreed with the decisions given a remedy was open to them. That was done in a number of cases.

In what number of cases?

A number of test cases were selected—every class of case that would arise out of relief work. One worker in each case was chosen. A decision was made as to whether or not his particular employment was to be regarded in that class as agricultural and, therefore, uninsurable or otherwise as insurable. In the great majority of cases the decision was that the work at which they were employed was to be regarded as agricultural employment, and therefore uninsurable. Large works like the Barrow drainage scheme are in a different class altogether.

Will the Minister say whether the test cases were applied in the Barrow drainage works?

That is a different class altogether. I cannot answer the question about the Barrow drainage works now. Major schemes like that are in a different category. I do not see any reason why that work should not be insurable.

Your Department is responsible.

I do not think so.

Yes. Every Deputy representing a constituency adjoining the Barrow area has been hearing complaints about cases of Barrow workers who are not eligible for insurance benefit, because their cards were not stamped. I have advised these people to make application to the Department of Industry and Commerce for a test case to know whether they are insurable. The decision should have been given in these cases already. When a workman goes into a particular job it is the responsibility of the employer to get the position there examined, and ascertain whether that man is insurable under the Act. That decision should be there already in the case of the Barrow workers. The workers should be able to produce in reference to a particular class of man a definite indication to show whether he is insurable or not. I would like the Minister to get a return from the Board of Works as to the number of people who were employed on the Barrow drainage scheme, and whose cards were not stamped. We should also like a return of the number whose cards were stamped, and for what period. The Minister will find from that return that there were large numbers on the Barrow scheme who had not their cards stamped.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce knows nothing about it until the facts come before him for a decision. It may be a number of workers engaged on the work were not in what would be insurable employment. I have no recollection that any point has been raised for decision in that connection by anybody employed on the scheme.

Is it not the duty of the officers of the Department to see that the cards of those normally engaged in insurable employment are stamped? If the Minister makes laws for those engaged in the employment of public companies or by private people, surely he ought to apply the same laws to the State?

If there is any question of doubt, the function of the officer of the Department is to take the necessary steps to have the matter brought up for decision and that requires the consent of the employer and employee.

Surely the Minister is wrong in stating that his Department only comes in for the purpose of giving a decision. Suppose I employ three carpenters in the City of Dublin and I say to them: "I am not going to stamp your unemployment insurance cards and you are getting employed on that understanding." They say "All right; we are quite satisfied with that, sir." There will be no complaint made by me as the employer and there will be no complaint by the carpenters, because they have agreed. Is the Minister's Department not obliged to take steps to ensure that there is compliance?

There were 700 men employed on the Barrow drainage scheme. Large numbers had not their cards stamped and they think it is the job of the Department of Industry and Commerce to require the Board of Works to submit for decision every one of these cases in order to decide whether or not they were insurable. If you decided one case that would affect a large number. It is felt there is an obligation on the Department to get the Board of Works to produce exemption certificates in respect of these particular people. That apparently was not done and the Minister's Department is responsible. In any case, 700 employees on the Barrow scheme are now paid off because the job is finished. In the case of a large number there is no prospect of employment for a considerable time. If the cards had been stamped in the ordinary way these people would have been entitled to unemployment insurance benefit which they are not now getting, either because the Minister's Department has not ensured compliance or the Board of Works have been allowed to get away with it pretty softly. The Unemployment Assistance Act is a subject which will agitate a considerable number of Deputies. I imagine Deputies from all Parties have their pockets choked with letters complaining of the delay in issuing certificates of qualification. I can imagine that with such a large number of applications there must be some delay.

On a point of order. I thought it was decided that this matter should be raised on the Estimates involving the Unemployment Assistance Act and the Unemployment Assurance Act. I do not mind if it is raised now, but it would be as well to decide at which stage the discussion should take place.

It can be raised now if the Minister and the House agree.

I do not mind whether it is raised now or later. It will suit me in either instance.

I suggest it should be dealt with on the other Estimate. I feel a large number of Deputies desire to comment on that particular aspect of administration. There are very important matters relating to Cork to be dealt with, anyhow.

Are we postponing the discussion on that matter until we reach the other Estimate?

That seems to be the desire of the House.

While we have had a very thorough review of the Department of Industry and Commerce from the commercial and industrial standpoint we have not been told by the Minister what he proposes to do in the matter of factory inspections, factory and workshop legislation, child labour, a shorter working week, the elimination of unfair competition with established industries, the policy of the Government in respect to the economic council and the question of the decentralisation of industry.

Deputy Norton has certainly covered the ground pretty fully on this Estimate, and he has succeeded in getting away without losing his scalp at the hands of the Minister. I take it the Minister must have had some difficulty in repressing his feelings and not giving way to such an outburst as he gave way to last night, when he said to Deputy Anthony that any stick was good enough to beat an Irish industry. Deputy Norton did not use an ordinary stick at all; he used a battering-ram. Of course, the Minister could not let loose his feelings on Deputy Norton as he did upon Deputy Anthony, for very obvious reasons. I sympathise with the Minister.

It is quite obvious that Deputy Norton, any more than Deputy Anthony, does not desire in any way to injure Irish industries or prevent their development. It is equally clear that Deputy Norton, as well as other Deputies, does not want factories established and developed upon wrong lines. We do not want them developed at the expense of the health of the juveniles of the country, and the employment of juveniles to the exclusion of the heads of families. However. Deputy Norton and Deputy Mulcahy have dealt pretty fully with that aspect of the situation. I want to get from the Minister some information regarding his activities with our old friends, the cement factories. The Minister may remember that we had two or three measures here giving him power to establish cement factories. I do not think that at the time we agreed as to the number of hands that would be employed as a result of the setting up of the factories, but the Minister was very anxious then to get the necessary power. Eventually he got the power, but, apparently, we are now no nearer to having a cement factory, to having people employed in the production of cement, than we then were. If the Minister did not state it explicitly, certainly by implication he led us to believe that all he required was to get the Act and immediately we would have at least one cement factory if not four. I think the Minister mentioned four factories. We would like to have a little information about the position with regard to cement.

I would like the Minister to tell us whether during the last year any representations have been made to his Department regarding the development of the Slieveardagh coal mines in Tipperary. Could he tell us if inquiries have been directed to his Department from persons interested in the development of these coal mines, what results have followed from those inquiries and, generally, what the position is at the moment and, in a nutshell, whether there is any possibility of any development of those coal mines taking place in the near future.

Deputy Norton touched upon another matter that I raised here on more than one occasion in the last two years, and that is regarding factory inspectors. The Deputy, I think, mentioned that the number of inspectors at the moment is 11. We are told that we have from 300 to 400 more factories than we had two years ago but I think—I am speaking from recollection at the moment as I have not the Estimates before me— that we have fewer inspectors to-day, if Deputy Norton's figure is correct, than we had before the Government's push for industrial development took place. I am quite satisfied, from information supplied to me and, in one or two cases, from my own personal knowledge, that there is not that close inspection that is necessary for the safeguarding of the conditions of work for the employees in the different factories, and that is necessary in some cases for the safeguarding of their lives. I do not want to mention here in the House the cases that are known to myself personally, because I think it would be unfair to mention them here, but I do say—and the Minister may remember that I raised this matter on more than one occasion previously—that the visits of inspectors are not made as frequently as they should be made.

There is just one point in connection with this matter of inspection that I would like to refer to. I would like the Minister to deal with the question of whether or not action has been taken on reports made by inspectors. As far as one can gather from the newspapers—and after all we have to depend largely on the newspapers—I do not remember seeing a single prosecution under the Factories Acts made this year. If the inspectors are doing their duty and are reporting infringements of the factory laws as, in my opinion, they should report them, and if the Department are acting on those reports, I am quite satisfied that there would have been a number of prosecutions. I would like the Minister to give particular attention to this matter because it is a question not only of working conditions but a question, I might say, of the safety of human life. I myself know a little about factory conditions and I know that it is a small thing that may lead to the maiming or perhaps to the killing of an employee in one of those small workshops or factories. If the making of proper reports as to conditions in these factories entails the employment of an extra two or three or a half-dozen inspectors, then, I think, no question of expense should be allowed to enter into the matter. I have something to say on the question of unemployment assistance also but, as I understand that we are to leave that over for discussion on the particular Estimate, I will not refer to it here.

I do not know whether I am in order in raising the question of juvenile employment at this stage, but I should like, very briefly, to draw the Minister's attention to some figures that are rather alarming in connection with the employment of juveniles. Unfortunately for juveniles, emigration has practically ceased in this country. That fact was a cause of misfortune to many of them who were not able to find employment at home and who used to go to other countries. Within the last three years emigration has ceased altogether and these juveniles have been thrown on the market here. The figures to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention show a rather serious state of affairs. Last year—that is, the year 1933— fresh applications were received from boys—I suppose on leaving the primary schools—to the extent of 2,593, and for girls to the extent of 2,427. Those were fresh applications in the year. There were already applications on the register from 272 boys and 181 girls, making in all, 2,865 applications for boys and 2,608 for girls. The Education Committee was only able to find employment for 430 boys and 463 girls, leaving 2,435 boys and 2,145 girls without any employment.

In the case of boys the employment that many of these got was as messengers. That leads to nothing. There is a case here, I think, that particularly requires the attention of the Minister and his Department. If these boys are allowed to go about without getting any employment it is demoralising to them and they are growing up without knowing anything at all of industry. That is an unfortunate matter because the parents complain that they lose control of these boys who get demoralised after making a number of applications to different places and not finding any success. It occurred to me that the Minister might do something in the way of the recommendations that were adopted by the Committee that was set up to report on technical education. That Committee recommended that something should be done in the way of continuation schools for those boys where they could be given some knowledge of industry so that, if any application were made, they would have some knowledge, because, as the Minister knows, employers will not take boys who have practically no knowledge of any industry. They are not going to waste time teaching them. Modern industry cannot afford that time and the boys must be taught somewhere else.

Accordingly, I suggest that there is scope here for the Minister's Department to do something in the way of providing training schools for these boys. The Minister may answer that that is a matter for the Minister for Education, but when I go to the Minister for Education he says that it is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Evidently, it is somewhere between the two, and it would be well, I think, if they both could collaborate in bringing forward some scheme. Employment for juveniles is getting more scarce year after year—that is, for juveniles of 14 which is the age when they leave the primary schools. There are very few industries prepared to take them at 14, and the Minister for Education, of course, cannot see his way to raise the school age to 16 which would be very desirable. On account of the condition of affairs in the schools they are all overcrowded and there seems to be no hope of raising the school age. Large numbers of these juveniles are going wild and that is very unfortunate. We see them all over the city at every street corner. It is a most unfortunate thing to think that there is so little employment for them.

I draw attention to this matter in the hope that the Minister will be able to do something for them. In the absence of any emigration or any hope in that direction, it seems to me that there is nothing to do but to adopt the proposal of continuation schools of the type envisaged by the Technical Education Committee in their report. It is a matter that is getting very serious on account of the numbers, year after year, for whom there is no employment. In a recent report of those connected with the housing industry, it was mentioned that there was a shortage of skilled labour. I do not mention that in any contentious sense but if there is a shortage of skilled labour in the building industry and there is a want of employment amongst the juveniles of our city, there ought to be some means of bringing the difference to an end. There seems to be an opportunity of giving employment to a number of these and amongst them are many talented, able and bright boys for whom there is no employment at the moment. I would direct the Minister's attention to the serious situation and ask him to get something done, both in the interests of the country and in the interests of the boys.

I am rather surprised at the attitude displayed by the Minister here this evening in connection with the failure of his Department to insist on the stamping of unemployment insurance cards in the case of men who have been employed on major drainage schemes, such as the Barrow and other arterial drainage schemes. The Minister is aware that, not alone since he became Minister but previous to his appointment as Minister for Industry and Commerce, this matter was raised year after year in the House and I hope I am right in thinking that the Minister, when this matter was raised last year, gave an assurance that the matter would be looked into at once. I am satisfied, at any rate, that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance gave that assurance when the matter was raised as affecting the minor drainage schemes by Deputy Norton. Deputy Norton is correct in stating that the number of people now affected by the failure of the Department to insist on the stamping of these cards is in or about 700, and I am aware that the Minister recently received a communication from the men, who, within the last three or four months, were employed on the Barrow drainage work in the Mountmellick area, protesting against the failure of his Department to provide the necessary application forms for unemployment assistance. There are a number of people destitute in that area at the moment and the board of health in the County of Laoighis have refused, since the 1st of April, to provide home assistance for people who otherwise would be entitled to it. However, the mistakes of the past can surely be rectified in the light of the knowledge the Minister has now received and I hope the Minister will take immediate steps to see that the cards of men who are to be employed on arterial drainage work, for which a sum of £35,000 is allocated, in the coming year, will be stamped.

I think that if the Minister has any right to insist on the stamping of unemployment insurance cards in the case of men engaged in other insurable occupations, he should give a good example by seeing that those who work for the State, and who are engaged in continuous employment by the State, will have their cards stamped in the same way or he should give his reasons to the House why it should not be done. There is, in the opinion of the members of this Party, a clear case for the stamping of unemployment insurance cards in the case of all State employees who are continuously engaged on the same class of work for a given period. These arterial drainage schemes cover in most cases a period of at least six months, and, in some cases, they cover a period of six months for a few years as in the case of the Barrow scheme. In the case of the Barrow itself, there is a sum of £6,500 to be expended in the present year and I hope that the matter will be looked into at once and that, in the case of all those schemes, proper and effective steps will be taken to see that the cards of men employed on those works by the State in future will be stamped.

I have received, as has every other Deputy, a considerable number of complaints alleging political preference in respect of employment on State subsidised works. Personally, I do not think there is a lot in these allegations. They arise mainly from personal animosity between individuals living in an area, but I am personally very strongly of opinion that the time has arrived when the Department of Industry and Commerce, under whatever regulations exist at the present time, or will exist in the future, should be the medium through which all able-bodied men are recruited for works carried out by the State or by local authorities. I have received complaints, for instance, in respect of works carried out by the Land Commission under the heading of improvement works. I brought this matter to the notice of the Minister for Defence when he was in charge of the Department of Lands and Fisheries some time ago, and I pointed out to him, both by correspondence and by a certain case which I quoted here in the House, that individuals who had got holdings of land on estates which had been divided were given a preference for employment as against able-bodied men registered at the local labour exchange. I think that, in the present circumstances, and for a long time to come, the able-bodied individual who is registered for work at the local labour exchange should get a preference as against the person who has got a holding on an estate which has been divided. I should like to hear the argument against that and I hope that in the allocation of the work to be carried out under the sum of £250,000 which has been set aside for work of this kind during the coming year, the labour exchange will be the medium through which the men will be recruited. I should like to hear the Minister arguing, if he can do so, in favour of preference being given to landholders in respect of employment on improvement works as against those who are registered for employment at the local labour exchange. That is going on to a very great extent all over the country in connection with the expenditure of that particular money.

Allegations have been made against county surveyors with regard to unfair treatment in the selection of men for public works in my area. Whether there is anything in those allegations or not, I think it is simply a ridiculous state of affairs to find that a county surveyor, when carrying out road maintenance works out of grants provided by the Local Government Department, must recruit his men from the local labour exchange, whereas the same county surveyor, when carrying out works the money for which is provided solely out of rates, can select, in any way he likes, the men who are to be employed on these works. It should be carried out either one way or the other and, in my opinion, the proper channel through which all these men should be selected for employment on works carried out by local authorities, is the labour exchange in accordance with the regulations existing at the time. Speaking as a Deputy, I would be satisfied with the regulations that are made and accepted by a majority of the House and I think that if the Minister and the Government could see their way to insist on the recruitment of all classes of men for all works carried out by the State or by local authorities through the local labour exchange, every Deputy in this House would be relieved of the responsibility of dealing with a peculiar type of complaint which it is not for a Deputy in the ordinary way to deal with.

At any rate, I certainly would not be receiving the number of letters I am receiving at the present time, and which should not be received by any Deputy. The only way to deal with that matter is to have those people recruited through the labour exchange, thus saving Deputies and other people the responsibility and trouble of inquiring into petty personal complaints of this type. I think I told the Minister quite recently, and I am sure the Minister's advisers will tell him in the very near future, that if there is to be an effective check against fraudulent claims under the Unemployment Assistance Act there will have to be some kind of continuous check upon the work of the people who normally would be entitled to claim unemployment assistance. The only effective check you can have is to see that those people who look for work on public works, such as the Barrow drainage or arterial drainage, or land improvement work, should be employed through the medium of the labour exchange. If you insist on that, you will have the most effective check possible upon those who desire to make fraudulent claims for unemployment assistance. I think if the Minister's advisers look into the matter very carefully they will see it is the only way to have an effective check against fraudulent claims of that kind being made and sanctioned.

Some short time ago I put down a question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to whether the Food Prices Commission had received any complaints, or made any investigation into the prices charged by butchers for fresh meat throughout the country. The Minister, to my surprise, informed me that only a few complaints had been made, but that the question of the prices charged for fresh meat, by butchers, to the consuming population of this State, had been referred to the Food Prices Commission for investigation. I read a statement recently made by a member of that Commission to a certain body in this country, consisting, mostly, of hotel managers, in which he indicated that, generally speaking, the food supplied in hotels was good, and that the prices were moderate. I wonder did the gentlemen concerned realise, or does he realise even now, that the farmers are receiving about 1½d. or 1¾d. per lb. live weight for their fat cattle at the present time, whereas the local butcher in the provincial town is charging 8d. or 9d. per lb. for fresh meat, and in the City of Dublin and suburbs as high as 1/2? The butchers, as far as I can find out, are the people who have made the most money out of the economic war, within the country at any rate. I hope the Food Prices Commission, which were charged with the responsibility of investigating this aspect of excessive prices some time ago, will bring in their report in the very near future, and that the Minister will act upon whatever report is submitted to him by them.

It is true that the consuming population, especially in provincial towns, are not overanxious to make complaints publicly as to the prices that are charged by the local shopkeepers or butchers. The reason is fairly clear, I am sure, to Deputies representing rural areas. The reason is that the people are "in the books" of the local merchants and butchers, and, therefore, they are not going to come before the Minister or before the Food Prices Commission and disclose the prices charged to them by the butcher who gives them their fresh meat "on tick."

The gombeen men!

If the consuming population for that reason or some other good —or bad—reason fails to discharge their duty even to their own families, as well as their duty to the community as a whole, I think the Minister has a medium through which those matters could be put right, and I hope he will give the Food Prices Commission more work to do in future than they have got up to the present. I hope he will ask the Food Prices Commission to investigate the difference between the price paid for eggs to the producer in the country and the price charged to the consumer by the shopkeeper, for the same Irish eggs, in the shops throughout the cities and towns in this country. I had hoped that this Food Prices Commission would be more energetic than what they appear to have been, and that they would make use of the power—which I presume they have—to initiate investigations into the prices charged for food. At any rate, we have up to the present seen no report of the activities of that body, arising out of their limited number of investigations into the excessive or alleged excessive prices charged for food, such as fresh meat, bacon, eggs, etc. Perhaps the Minister in his reply will enlighten the members of the House, and the people as a whole, as to the activities of that particularly important body; as to what reports, if any, he has received up to the present from the members of that body, and what steps, if any, he has taken as a result of any report so received.

The Minister stated that he had a very wide review of subjects, and he touched upon some of them very lightly. I want to ask him, in his reply, to go somewhat more fully into one particular item, namely industrial alcohol. The reason why I think he ought to do that at the present time is that the Government are starting out on a very important venture and I should like to be quite sure that they have considered all the aspects of this matter. Are they quite sure, supposing they find that they can produce industrial alcohol cheaply, that they are prepared to take their place in the distribution? What is the way that they propose to distribute the industrial alcohol? The first question I should like to ask the Minister is how he proposes to deal with those particular companies which are manufacturing industrial alcohol? Are they going to be run on commercial lines, and publish a balance sheet? I think that, whatever excuse there is for State trading, there is absolutely none when no figures are available, and the losses are simply made up in the Estimates. As I said before, this is the start of a venture in the carrying through of which the Government presumably thinks there is some chance of success. I am neither a farmer nor a farmers' representative, and I do not want to say anything about the price of 35/- a ton which, I think, is the figure that the Minister indicated he was prepared to pay to the farmer for a particular type of potato. I am only wondering whether the Minister is quite sure that when times get better he will not find that he has to pay a higher price for his raw material. That is only one aspect of the matter, but there are other important aspects upon which I did not notice the Minister touching at all. I believe he stated, or it was stated formally, that the Government hoped to produce this spirit at 1/9 per gallon at their factory. I do not know whether I can ask the Minister if I am correct in that statement.

Would the Deputy move to report progress now?

Before the Deputy moves to report progress, would the Minister say whether he has taken cognisance of the threatened strike of women workers in the clothing industry, and whether the Department is doing anything to intervene?

It is settled. That is my information.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-day.
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