Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1935

Vol. 54 No. 13

Adjournment Debate. - Seizure of Furniture.

Mr. Bennett

The following question was on the Order Paper in my name to-day:—

To ask the Minister for Justice whether he is aware that a seizure of furniture was made at the residence of Colonel Liam Fraher, Ballynanty, Bruff, County Limerick, for arrears of land annuities between the hours of midnight and 2 a.m. on the morning of 7th February, and if he will explain the reasons for this action at such an unreasonable hour.

In his reply, the Minister for Agriculture, on behalf of the Minister for Justice, who, I am sorry to learn, is ill, stated:—

The Deputy appears to have been misinformed. The seizure referred to was made on the 6th February, at the hour of 11.30 a.m.

In a supplementary question I asked if that was so why were the sheriff and forces on the premises at 2 a.m. on February 7th and the Minister replied "To get paid". Surely that in itself is almost a sufficient answer to my question. If a seizure had been effected previously why should the sheriff have 14 hours subsequently to apply for payment? It is not the usual procedure for a sheriff, when he has made a seizure, to come the next day to ask for payment of the account. The seizure generally serves the purpose. I admit that the sheriff was on the land at the hour mentioned—11.30 a.m. He produced a warrant and asked for the rent. Colonel Fraher replied that he could not pay as he had not the amount but that he had half the amount, and would give it. The court messenger said that unfortunately half could not be accepted. There was a conversation lasting one and a half or two hours between the officials and Colonel Fraher and his friends. They discussed the matter amicably, and I may say that from first to last the action of the officers and the Gárda was courteous. There is no reflection and no charge against them. Their conduct was courteous during the 14 hours they were there. Two or three hours later the court messenger left the premises and proceeded elsewhere, obviously to consult his superiors. He returned at a later hour and said that unfortunately he could not accept the half: that if he did it would be creating a precedent for the county. Colonel Fraher said "That being the case you had better take something." There were cattle on the land, cows and dry stock and 101 pigs in the yard. Colonel Fraher is one of those men who farms well. He is a credit to the farming community. He tries, as far as he can to fulfil what, in the Minister's opinion, would be all the requirements of good farming.

Donnchadha O Briain

Why does he not pay his annuities?

Mr. Bennett

He is luckier than some of us because he possesses some stock. The fact is that some of us have not any stock. But the mere fact that Colonel Fraher had some stock does not prove that he had sufficient money to pay his annuities.

Donnchadha O Briain

Is he not in receipt of a pension?

Mr. Bennett

I would like to say this to Deputy O Briain: that he had better not follow the example of the Minister for Finance to-day who attempted to prejudice the case that he knew I was to make to-night by getting up and making the most insidious charges against an honourable gentleman whose boots he is not fit to wipe. The Minister said that this particular gentleman was in receipt of a pension from the State. Colonel Fraher is in receipt of a pension from the State for faithful and honest services rendered. No Deputy on the opposite side can refute that statement. It was an ill-wind that blew the Minister for Finance on to those benches to-day to cast a slur on this particular gentleman.

Colonel Fraher as a soldier, as a gentleman and as a good farmer is all that one should expect of a decent citizen of this State, but he is in the position that, even though he has land and stock, he has not cash to pay his annuities. He is in the position of the rest of us, that having paid once he is unable to pay a second time. On this particular occasion he was willing that the court messenger should take cattle when he could not pay. The court messenger did take a ramble around the fields to see what stock was on the land. My information is that the first animal the court messenger saw was a bull. I think he was rather intimidated by the bull and returned. I do not know whether or not he inspected the 101 pigs in the yard, but if he did he must have come to the conclusion that Colonel Fraher's dry stock and pigs were not a convertible security. We all know that what they are worth to-day is very little. At about 4 or 5 p.m. he announced, for the first time to Colonel Fraher, that if he could not pay he would have to take something. Colonel Fraher said: "Very well." The court messenger said that he would have to send for a lorry and that it might not arrive until the morning. On hearing this Colonel Fraher said to him: "If you remove your forces from my place I will give you my word of honour that everything that is now on the land and premises will be there when you come back again." But the word of honour of a soldier and of a gentleman was not sufficient for the representative of the Minister in collecting the annuities. The word of honour of a soldier and of a gentleman of this country who, in dark times, and at every time, fought honourably for his country was not sufficient for the representative of the Minister; the word and honour of the representative of a family which, in all periods of this country's history was in the forefront of the fight for the people's rights, was not accepted.

Colonel Fraher has a reputation which cannot be sullied on the benches opposite or anywhere else. The record of his family and of his predecessors is a proud one. His predecessors were always in the forefront of the fight for tenant right. They were in the fight at Ballycohey. Why was not the stock taken on this gentleman's land and why was it necessary to take the furniture? Was there not sufficient stock there? Perhaps the reason is this, that when the sheriff walked into Colonel Fraher's house the first thing to catch his eye was a rather admirable painting—I should have said two admirable paintings—of Griffth and Collins and portraits of Parnell and Davitt. Was it because this gentleman had on the walls of his house proofs of his nationality and his patriotism, and that the representative of the sheriff envied him in his possession of these things, that he decided to seize property instead of stock on the land? Did he think that these portraits and property would be saleable commodities at a sheriff's sale. At any rate, whatever the cause, he was evidently bent on offering all the indignities possible to this particular gentleman. He had been offered cattle and other stock as well as the pigs, but would not take them. His forces remained in possession of this gentleman's premises and lands for 14 or 15 hours. During that time no attempt was made to seize anything. It was not until long after midnight that any intimation was given that there was to be a seizure. It was two minutes past two o'clock in the morning when the representative of the sheriff laid his hands on Colonel Fraher's furniture to remove it. A neighbouring farmer—Captain Morkell, a brother officer of Colonel Fraher, who was present—said: "I am hanged if I am going to stand by and see your property seized and such an indignity offered to yourself, your wife and your family," and he paid the amount.

What, I ask, was the object of having this midnight occupation of a farmer's premises? There was no necessity for it in this particular case. There was no resistance and no semblance of resistance offered by the tenant. The sheriff's officer could have seized on the 6th or on the following day, the 7th, and if there had been a seizure of the stock there was no difficulty with regard to putting them in a pound. We had a long debate to-day on a Bill in connection with pounds. Within two and a half miles of Colonel Fraher's land there is the only decent pound in County Limerick, one in which cattle are properly cared for and treated. His cattle and other stock could have been safely sent to that pound, but that did not suit the representatives of the Crown or the Government.

Mr. Donnelly

The Crown!

Mr. O'Leary

Yes, the Crown; what else?

Mr. Bennett

You are the representatives of the Crown in this country. Instead of seizing the cattle and taking them to the pound, the representatives of the sheriff proceeded to inflict on this unfortunate tenant farmer an indignity that was never offered to tenants during the worst times in this country, in the worst days of landlordism when evictions were taking place and you had general ill-treatment of farmers. During those penal times you had not those midnight seizures with the representatives of the sheriff remaining in occupation of a tenant's premises. It remained for an Irish Government to offer that indignity to not only an honest farmer but a farmer with the attributes of Colonel Fraher, a gentleman with a distinguished military record, a distinguished patriotic record as well as a good honest record as a farmer, a better record than that of most Deputies on the benches opposite or on these benches. He is a hard-working, industrious man, endeavouring in the most honourable way to bring up his family. It was against him that the charge was levelled to-day by the Minister for Finance that he was in receipt of a pension and that he should be one of the first men to pay his annuities. Were it not for his pension, Colonel Fraher would be in the position of most of us, and that is that we have not the wherewithal to meet demands for the annuities or other debts. If, perchance, the sheriff's men should come to visit us either in the open daylight or during the midnight hours, as they did in the case of Colonel Fraher, then, unfortunately, as we have not the means to pay, we will have to let our furniture and effects go.

The precedent established in this case is one that we do not want to see repeated. We do not want unfortunate farmers to be in danger of having the sheriff, the bailiff or the police coming to their houses in the middle of the night and, perhaps, terrifying their families. They were not terrified in this case. The Guards were most courteous, but there is no assurance that a farmer will not have his premises entered by the forces of the law during the nocturnal hours, or that officers of the law will not remain in occupation during those hours. I know of the case of two ladies who could not pay, and their furniture was taken; but that happened in daylight. There is no assurance that, on the next occasion, the seizure of the remainder of their furniture will not take place about midnight. It is because of that danger that I raise this question.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

The seizure actually took place in this case, as admitted by Deputy Bennett, at 11.30 a.m.

Mr. Bennett

I did not admit that.

Dr. Ryan

The court messenger took possession of the furniture at that time and naturally he had to get a lorry to take it away. It would appear that, amongst the friends of Deputy Bennett, it was difficult to get a lorry to remove the furniture, and the court messenger had to telephone to Dublin for a lorry. There was delay in getting the lorry down and considerable expense was put upon Colonel Fraher in respect of the lorry from Dublin. The messenger had to wait until the lorry arrived, and the lorry did not reach there until 2 o'clock in the morning. It is wrong to give the impression that there was a raid made on this house at 2 o'clock in the morning. The court messenger arrived at 11.30 a.m. and, owing to the difficulty of getting a lorry, the money was not paid. Evidently Colonel Fraher believed that Deputy Bennett's organisation was strong enough to prevent a lorry being supplied to take the furniture away, and he did not believe he would be made pay until the lorry arrived. The lorry did not arrive until 2 o'clock.

Mr. Donnelly

The organisation has collapsed.

Mr. Brennan

Cut out the organisation question altogether.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Bennett said that Colonel Fraher was told that the lorry would not arrive until, perhaps, the early hours of the morning and that he offered to give his word that, if the court messenger, withdrew, nothing would be removed before the following day. I do not know what passed between the court messenger and Colonel Fraher but I do know that, if the court messenger were to let an opportunity like that slip, he would get into very serious trouble. Evidently, he was not prepared to take that risk. Whether he was prepared to take Colonel Fraher's word or not, I do not know. Possibly, he was afraid that some of the friends of Colonel Fraher or Deputy Bennett might come in his absence and take the furniture away. At all events, he thought it safer to remain there until the lorry arrived and take the stuff with him. I quite accept what Deputy Bennett says, that Colonel Fraher is a gentleman, a soldier, a farmer and so on but he is a foolish man because if he had had the sense to know sooner that this conspiracy against the payment of land annuities was not going to succeed, he could, at least, have saved himself the £5 extra he paid for the lorry. If he had had the sense not to believe too strongly in the power of Deputy Bennett's organisation to save him from paying his land annuities or having any of his property seized——

Mr. O'Leary

You mean paying them a second time.

Dr. Ryan

Paying what was due.

Mr. O'Leary

Not what was due. The President admitted that before Christmas.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Bennett tells us that a neighbouring farmer and a brother officer paid up the amount at the last moment—when the lorry arrived. He, also, must have believed that the conspiracy was going to succeed because he could very easily have done that in the early hours of the afternoon before the lorry was sent for. He would then have got away with the payment of the land annuity and sheriff's costs, without the additional cost of transport. But it appears to be necessary to convince people like Colonel Fraher, who was probably better able to pay than many another farmer, that this conspiracy will not succeed before they will actually pay up, even though the delay leads to a considerable amount of additional cost. Deputy Bennett did mention, in a speech down in Limerick, that this was a political fight. I do not know whether Colonel Fraher is a follower of Deputy Bennett or not but I assume he is. Naturally, any follower of Deputy Bennett looks to him for a lead. These people believe that if they support Deputy Bennett in this "political fight," they will be helped out and, naturally, Colonel Fraher thought it was up to him to fight to the bitter end.

Mr. Bennett

Was that the reason for the midnight seizure?

Dr. Ryan

In spite of the description Deputy Bennett has given us of the plight of some of his followers, I do not know if he is prepared to put up a defence fund to compensate Colonel Fraher and others for the additional expenses which they incur in this way. As has been shown here, there was very heavy additional expense in paying for the lorry and that would have been avoided if the land annuity had been paid promptly. I was asked why, in this case, the sheriff did not seize animals instead of furniture. Of course, the sheriff used his own discretion. He takes whatever he thinks most suitable in the circumstances and, in this case, he evidently decided to take the furniture. I remember members of the Opposition urging, on one occasion, that it was unfair to take a man's stock—cows and so forth—because it was taking away a man's means of livelihood. In all probability, the sheriff was being kind to Colonel Fraher in seizing his furniture rather than his live stock. Whatever the reason he decided to take the furniture.

Mr. Curran

You would say anything.

Mr. O'Leary

And the people know it.

Dr. Ryan

I have been asked since this question arose who is the registrar who carried out this seizure, because, whoever he is, he seems to be a competent man.

Mr. Curran

From your point of view.

Dr. Ryan

He went about his business in a very businesslike way. He evidently knew that by threatening to take Colonel Fraher's furniture he was going to get paid, not alone the annuity, but the full expenses. There is nothing but credit due to him for going about his business in that way and I do not think that anybody has anything to complain about.

Mr. Brennan

You stand for that?

Dr. Ryan

Certainly.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until Thursday, at 3 p.m.