Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 May 1936

Vol. 61 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Forestry.

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £102,939 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta, maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Tailimh do Thógaint (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928).

That a sum not exceeding £102,939 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry, including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land (9 and 10 Geo 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928).

Minister for Lands (Mr. Connolly)

The total net Vote for the year is £154,439 which, it will be observed, is £76,071 below the sum provided last year. This reduction does not imply that planting operations, or the programme generally, is being curtailed. On the contrary, there is provision made for very considerable expansion. Last year it will be noted that we provided £109,500 for the acquisition of lands for forestry purposes and the unexpended balance of that amount remains in the hands of the Department and will, it is expected, prove adequate for our purchases in the current year. It may be well to explain that money provided under this sub-head is by way of grant-in-aid and does not revert to the Exchequer at the end of the financial year.

Over 15,000 acres were acquired during last year, which brings the total acreage available for State forestry up to almost 100,000 acres. This amount would have been considerably greater, but certain temporary difficulties of an administrative nature arose in regard to the clearing of title.

The number of forest units is now increased to 69, six new units having been established during the past year, viz.: Stradbally (County Leix), Dromore (Kenmare, County Kerry), Lough Derg (County Donegal), Stranorlar (County Donegal), Glenfarne (County Leitrim), and Baronstown (County Westmeath). It is hoped that it will be possible to establish an additional new centre in County Sligo during the current year.

Sub-head A, £11,719—Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—There is an increase on last year of £915 under this sub-head. During the year the post of director was filled, and five new posts were created for temporary assistant junior forestry inspectors. These appointees will work under the permanent forestry inspectors and, when they have acquired sufficient practical experience, it is hoped that they will qualify to be absorbed in our permanent inspectorate staff. Provision is made for the expenses of a short course of training abroad for any of them who may merit selection.

It may not be out of place to mention that these posts were created so that the Department might be in a position to assimilate those who had graduated in forestry through our home universities. The new director took up duties in November last and is now engaged in getting a detailed knowledge of all the operations of the forestry division and familiarising himself with all the areas, nurseries, conditions, etc., of these throughout the State. The director, I may say, was chosen by a selection board from about 70 candidates from 12 different countries, and his experience in the German State Forest Service, where he occupied a very important controlling position, should be valuable, not only in expanding forestry operations, but also in ascertaining what can be done in those areas in the west and south which present the real difficulties.

Sub-head B provides £2,000 for travelling expenses and subsistence allowance. The amount required under this sub-head is practically the same as last year.

Sub-head C (1), Acquisition of Land, £1,000.—This may be treated as a token Vote. As I have already explained, we retain within the Department the unexpended balance of this sub-head. It represents a Grant-in-Aid and as the accumulated funds under this amount to £118,931, we will have more than sufficient to meet all our needs for the current year.

Sub-head C (2), £142,581—Cultural operations, Maintenance, etc.—This sub-head is the really significant one of the Estimates, representing as it does the actual development and expansion of forestry operations. In the provision for this year, the increase is £32,847 above the amount voted last year. With the growth of operations there is, of necessity, a corresponding increase in the number of foresters and foremen and an increase in the amount of money required for supplies of plants, seedlings, fencing and other essential materials. It will be noted that increases have been made in the staffs of foresters and foremen, but further increases will be necessary and it is our plan to recruit these from our own trainees. At the present time we have five trainees in their third and final year; 12 in their second year and 12 in their first year, making 29 trainees in all. It is from these trainees of our own school that we will secure our future foresters and foremen. Proposals for further recruitment to be made by the Civil Service Commissioners during the coming year are under consideration. It will be observed that within this sub-head we estimate and have made provision for £102,500 to be spent on labour alone, of which £22,500 will be allotted to maintenance and the remaining £80,000 for cultural operations.

The amount required for the purchase of seeds, seedlings and transplants is £12,500, as against £9,000 provided last year. Whilst it is true that the main sources of supply for planting work are our own nurseries, and whilst these are being extended as quickly as possible, they are not yet adequate to meet the demands of the greater area now being planted. During the year about 2,000,000 transplants and 750,000 seedlings were ordered from Saorstát nurserymen who were, however, unable to supply all the requirements of the Department and purchases from outside the country were necessary. As a matter of fact, last year there was a general shortage of supplies and this considerably restricted us in our planting work. As a result we were only able to plant an area of 6,400 acres. This was an increase of 900 acres over the previous year, but was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,500 acres less than we could have planted had plants and seedlings been available.

Though the Department's nurseries have been more than doubled and are being still further expanded, the effect of the expansion will not be felt for some time, as plants require on the average about three years in the nursery before they can be used in the forest. Still larger purchases of plants will, therefore, be necessary during the current year to meet the planting programme and plan that has been laid down. This programme will aim at the planting of 10,000 acres.

Though a quantity of seed is extracted at home, most of the seed used in the nurseries is imported. Last year's purchases were 12,512 lbs., compared with 6,876 lbs. in the previous year. Germany (5,180 lbs.), Holland (5,000), Denmark (690); Scotland (600); Canada (502); Austria (300) and United States (240) were our supply sources. Larger purchases of seed will be necessary during the present year.

Sub-head C (3), £2,718—Timber conversion.—There is a decrease in the amount required under this sub-head. The Department has two sawmills operating, one at Dundrum, County Tipperary, and the other at Emo, near Portarlington. The mill at Emo is very small, but the sawmill at Dundrum does a considerable amount of work. The question of reconditioning this mill is under consideration. As time goes on and our forests are producing standing timber the whole organisation for the proper and economical handling of the produce will require more and more attention. The Department is fully alive to this aspect of its work and the necessary plans and provision will be made.

Sub-head D (1), £600—Grants and advances for afforestation purposes.— This sum is required to meet the cost of the Department's scheme for grants for planting work by public bodies and private owners. Payment is made at the rate of £4 per acre, of which £3 is paid as soon as the work has been done to the satisfaction of the Department and the balance of £1 after five years, if the Department is satisfied that the plantation has been properly maintained in the meantime. The total amount has been growing slowly since it was started in 1931 and, though some public bodies have availed of the advantages of the scheme, it is felt that public authorities and private persons might have used it to a much greater extent than they did.

Sub-head D (2), £600—Arbor Day.— Arbor Day was held during the month of March, and the same arrangements were made for the supply of plants to schools as in the previous year, when the Arbor Day movement was revived. The number of schools participating was about 900. A difficulty which prevents many schools from participating in Arbor Day is that there is no ground available around the school where trees could be planted. The Department is satisfied that so long as interest in the care and preservation of trees can be stimulated amongst the rising generation the experiment can be justified.

Sub-head E (1), £1,201 — Forestry Education.—Under this sub-head money is provided (1) for a scholarship in forestry in the National University, (2) for the special courses held every year for foresters and foremen, and (3) for the cost of the school at Avondale. The forestry school at Avondale was reopened in July last year after having been closed for many years. The premises have been renovated and a household staff with a matron has been provided. The arrangements for the housing and care of the trainees and apprentices are very satisfactory and the Department is satisfied that the school will be in a position to give an adequate training in all branches of forestry. The school will have from 18 to 21 trainees when in full swing.

Sub-head E (2), £50—Exhibits at Shows.—This is a provision for occasional exhibits at various shows where demonstrations of proper methods of planting and occasional lectures on forestry may be given. Sub-head F, £10—Agency and Advisory Services.—This is merely a token Vote. Sub-head G, £200—Incidental Expenses.—The same amount is proposed under this sub-head as last year. It covers cost of telegrams, telephones, advertising of sales of timber, lettings and sundry expenses. Sub-head H, £8,220 — Appropriations-in-Aid. — This sum represents the estimated income from all sources, the principal source of income being the Dundrum Sawmill, sales of timber and grazing, shooting and cottage rents.

That covers the various activities of the Department and I am hopeful that the way has now been prepared for a rapid advance and expansion in forestry development. Whilst I had hoped that the acreage planted last year would have been greater, it will be remembered that, as indicated last year, the primary steps would begin in our nursery development. As I have already said, it takes a minimum of about three years before the expansion of the nursery results in an expansion of the forest. It was hoped to make up for this by purchases of seedlings and plants, and we purchased all we possibly could through our own commercial nurserymen at home and as much as we could of suitable plants even from outside the country. Last year seemed to indicate a general shortage of supplies.

I have conferred with the director and the technical staff of the Department, and they are reasonably satisfied that, assuming all goes well in our own nurseries and we are able to get the necessary additional supplies of suitable plants, an area of 10,000 acres of planting should be possible during the current year, though this would certainly mean extreme pressure on a staff which needs an increase of trained hands to deal in the ordinary manner with a 10,000-acre programme. From that on I see no reason why we should not gradually increase the annual planting programme to approximately 20,000 acres until such time as the necessary amount of national reafforestation is carried through. I feel that we are well on the way, that our foundations are being well laid, and that it is now a question of time—time for the nursery development and time for the development of our own technical and scientific forestry staffs.

Mr. Dillon

Sir, yesterday we were treated to what seemed to me the rather disagreeable spectacle of the Minister, Senator Connolly, putting on a halo and brushing up his wings. He became so sanctimonious and virtuous during some of his observations in regard to the Land Commission that I was about to give a signal of my disapproval. Perhaps I might say to the Minister that such exchanges might be avoided if he would learn that amongst the many vices of the members of this House sanctimoniousness is not one, and perhaps I might be allowed to suggest that the Minister would be less irritating if he would model himself on his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who appears here in the role of political buccaneer. It would be well if the Minister did not give us these exhibitions of his sanctimoniousness. It is only when the Minister attempts to do so that it is difficult to hear him with patience.

The Minister reminds us that he has a very substantial sum on hands. He told the House that he has actually purchased 15,000 acres this year for the purpose of forestry, and that a further tract is in process of acquisition. Perhaps when concluding he would let us know how many acres he has in mind which he is actually prevented from acquiring owing to legal difficulties. The Minister referred to several new centres of forestry which have been established recently by the Department. He mentioned two in Donegal, one at Lough Derg and another in Stranorlar. I expect that Lough Derg does not refer to the place to which people go on pilgrimage. I take it that Stranorlar is right in the centre of the county, but in a more fertile part of the county than that in which one would expect activities of this kind might be carried on. I know that on the occasions when the Minister was approaching Donegal with torchlight processions the people of Donegal were led to believe that forestry would spread widely through the highlands of Donegal. I understand that there are technical difficulties about the planting of forests on bog lands, and that while one may get a good growth one year, experts tell us that forests planted under these circumstances will perish. But are not the mountain areas in Gweedore and on the road from Glenties to Gweedore eminently suitable for afforestation? If they are it seems that a great deal of what is now a virtually derelict area might be profitably used for the production of timber, while at the same time it would enhance the scenic beauties of the county. These new forest lands would lend an added charm to the beauties of this part of the country.

I think it would not be amiss if the Minister would state the technical considerations that have to be borne in mind when choosing suitable sites for new forests. There is no doubt whatever that a great many of the public imagine that the more barren any particular piece of land is for agricultural purposes the more suitable it is for forestry. That as we know is not true, and it would be well to set out what are the essentials of successful forestry and to explain why it is that certain naked tracts of country cannot be clothed with forests owing to the technical difficulties which arise.

I was much surprised at hearing the Minister setting forth the difficulties about getting seedlings and young trees last year. I had heard complaints from certain nurserymen that they were willing and ready to supply seedlings and young trees but that they found the Department was extremely anxious to get their supplies from no other source but from their own nurseries. From what the Minister said to-day it would appear that not only did he exhaust his own nurseries but the commercial nurseries in the Saorstát as well and even then he had to go outside the country. I shall take occasion to address myself to the commercial nurseries and ascertain from them whether they could give assistance in the supplying of these seedlings and young trees. I would be glad if the Minister would tell us now if it is the intention of the Department to extend the Department's nurseries to such an extent as will provide seedlings and young trees that the commercial nurserymen are in a position to supply. It would be an extremely dangerous thing to spread Departmental nurseries to such an extent that the commercial nurserymen would be cut out altogether. The commercial nurserymen have occupied a very useful position in the commercial and agricultural spheres of the community's activities. I suspect they have materially lost in respect of their trade with Great Britain. That is something over which the Minister for Lands has only indirect control. But such losses as have been suffered might very fairly be compensated for by increasing the Department's purchases from these commercial nurserymen now. If these nurserymen are fixed with notice that it is the intention of the Government to increase the capacity of their nurseries until the commercial nursery is no longer required, then I think the business of these men might be very seriously interrupted, material damage might be done, and useful employment might be destroyed.

The Government nurseries, if they were very largely expanded now to meet the entire requirements of the Department during an intensive campaign of reafforestation, probably would not require to be so large once the initial stages were overcome. There would be normally a contraction in activities when we got to the stage of doing no more than replacing forests that were cut away. Therefore, from the point of view of the Government, and from the point of view of the nurseries, it would be undesirable to expand unduly. I would hope, after we had established forests adequately throughout the State, that for the purpose of replacement we would depend principally upon the established commercial horticulturists who have been supplying the requirements of forest trees and seedlings for a long time.

The Minister has referred to sub-head E (2), which deals with exhibits at shows. I think it is a very desirable departure to conduct propaganda of any kind, such as Arbor Day and exhibits at shows, with a view to encouraging the younger generation to understand the beauty and use of trees and to deter them from irresponsible interference with trees when they come across them. Has anybody seen the Department of Forestry's exhibit at the Royal Dublin Society Show? I think there is some small exhibit there at present. Because, taking that exhibit and the various exhibits of the Department of Agriculture as representing the rural section of the Royal Dublin Society Show, I think a very striking lesson may be learned. The Royal Dublin Society Show, the Spring Show particularly, was originally a fixture primarily designed to interest the rural community, and the country people from all parts gathered to Dublin for that occasion and saw an exhibition of the most modern equipment, of the experimentation that had been carried on, and of the highest classes of agricultural stock. It also served the useful purpose of bringing before the city folk the kind of activities going on in rural Ireland.

The Deputy Lemass became the Minister for Industry and Commere, Deputy Dr. Ryan became Minister for Agriculture, and Senator Connolly became Minister for Lands and Forestry and Gaeltacht Services, and the rivalry began between the industrialist and the agriculturist. That rivalry has proceeded. The unfortunate agriculturist has fallen back and fallen back at Ballsbridge, until now you must wend your way through forests of potted meat and aluminium even to see a heifer. It is one of the most striking things that ever happened in this country.

I remember five or six years ago if you went to the Spring Show the impression you got was that you were attending an agricultural show. Everything in the show oriented to its application or impact upon agriculture. Go out there now and it is like a trade exhibition. Every decent hall is occupied with trade displays. As I say, you have got potted meat, aluminium, kettles, pots, steel, boots and shoes. Everybody who wants a tariff is bound to go out and take a stand at the show in order to give the Minister for Industry and Commerce a boost, and the unfortunate Minister for Lands, the Minister for Forestry, the Minister for the Gaeltacht Services, is cowering in semi-darkened rooms at the far end of the grounds, and the poor Minister for Agriculture is chased off the scene altogether.

Mr. Moore

Surely the Royal Dublin Society is not a Government institution and we must not assume that the Government have any responsibility for arranging the exhibits at the show?

An Ceann Comhairle

I presume the Deputy is coming to the Department's exhibit in due time?

Mr. Moore

There was no suggestion of that.

Mr. Dillon

There is a sum of £50 here for a stand or exhibit at the Royal Dublin Society Show. I say that if the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Agriculture had half the thrust or drive or capacity for self-advertisement that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has, they would have the agricultural stand in a prominent place in the grounds, and they would not be driven into the nooks and crannies and back halls that they have been driven into by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Moore

Or the Director of the Royal Dublin Society?

Mr. Dillon

It is not the Director. He has nothing to do with it. If the Minister for Forestry does not get a place which he considers commensurate with the importance of the exhibit or the propaganda which it is his duty to conduct at the Show, then he need not go there—alternative accommodation can be sought. What I deplore is that what was a great agricultural fixture, which it is the duty of the Minister for Lands and Forestry and the Minister for Agriculture to insist shall remain an agricultural fixture——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Dillon

Let me put it this way —that at a show, where the Minister is taking steps to conduct propaganda, he is allowing himself to be manipulated into a darkened place wholly inadequate for the purpose he has in mind. I say that the Minister for Lands is falling into a greater error than some of his colleagues, and I should like to remind him that it is another of his colleagues who is largely responsible for driving him into that error. I deplore that and suggest that he ought to assert himself and that he ought to exhort his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, to assert himself and insist that the important exhibits that they are charged to show shall take pride of place in displays such as the Spring Show is, and that they should insist, if they are to go on exhibiting, that the Spring Show shall revert to its primary purpose of an agricultural display and not as an advertising boost.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has no control over the Spring Show and hence he cannot interfere.

Mr. Dillon

He can notify the Show authorities that he will not take a place there or spend £50 on it until the character of that Show is restored to what he thinks it should be, and until it ceases to be a boosting establishment for his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and reverts to the primary purpose of being a boosting establishment for agriculture.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is discussing the character of the Spring Show for which the Minister is not responsible.

Mr. Dillon

I have mentioned the considerations which I thought arose under sub-head E. (2), and I do not wish to trespass on your patience any further than the reference requires. There is one matter which arises out of the appropriations-in-aid here in connection with which I think the Minister could do really valuable work in the restricted sphere of his Department for the country as a whole. Paragraph 4 of the appropriations-in-aid deals with grazing, shooting and cottage rents. So far as my information goes a good deal of these cottage and shooting rents arises from lands in the possession of the Department of Forestry which are stocked with game of one kind or another. I believe that a great many of these lands might very profitably be used, not only to provide shooting amenities for prospective tenants, but also as nurseries for the development of the game population in the particular areas in which they are found. It is the Minister's duty to render these as attractive as he can with a view to getting revenue from them by way of rents from prospective tenants. I believe that, within the ambit of that activity, by generously restocking lands over which he has shooting rights which he intends to let, he might confer a great benefit on the whole of the surrounding neighbourhood and develop miniature Scotch moors in the neighbourhood where he holds these lands. This would have the enormous advantage of making a very material contribution to the small holders all around, who might in time take in guests who would come there for the unique free shooting this country provides.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this on forestry?

Mr. Dillon

It is on paragraph 4 of the appropriations-in-aid. The Minister has a number of lands which he lets for grazing, shooting and cottage rents, and derives an income of £800 a year from that. I suggest he might derive a more substantial income by making that country more attractive. I am not putting that from any narrow point of view of his own Department; but I am suggesting that he might make a greatly increased balance for the Department of Forestry while, at the same time, doing useful service to the district.

The grouse population could be increased and the woodcock population could be increased. I do not know whether you could attempt to increase pheasants because they are an extremely incalculable brood needing very careful preservation. It may be, perhaps, too extravagant a suggestion. But, so far as grouse and woodcock are concerned, something material could be done. I am not quite certain whether the woodcock is a migratory bird, and whether technical difficulties would arise in respect of that class of game. But, certainly, as far as grouse are concerned, valuable work could be done on the moors to make them very much more attractive to sportsmen who would come over here.

It must be borne in mind that Scottish shooting is mainly a rich man's shooting and attracts Americans able to pay gigantic rents. We have a very substantial English population coming here for free fishing. If we could add rough free shooting I think we would draw a middle class tourist population who would assist very materially to swell the incomes of people living in those areas.

The Minister himself said that he went round the Gaeltacht in the course of his duty as Minister, and that he would fence it in if he could. He would put up a wire fence round it, take the people out of it and forbid anyone to live in it again. May I suggest such drastic remedies for the Gaeltacht would not be necessary if a programme of evolution rather than revolution is decided upon. This suggestion of mine would be one for making the present hopelessly inadequate holdings in the Gaeltacht fit to live on. If people there were enabled to improve their houses by housing grants so as to provide for shooting parties coming from Great Britain or America as they very well might to shoot over the land they would be enriched by such a scheme. The Minister, in introducing this Vote, set a model in brevity. I wish to follow his example. I content myself with setting out four or five considerations upon which I would be glad to hear his views when he is winding up this debate.

Mr. Moore

The Minister is to be congratulated on having presented an Estimate towards which Deputy Dillon could address no adverse criticism. Those of us who have experience of Deputy Dillon must admit that for the Minister to be able to get to that stage, indicates remarkable efficiency indeed; because if there could be adverse criticism directed towards this Department, Deputy Dillon would be able to do it.

I rise to ask a question or two in regard to the appropriations-in-aid. First let me say a word in regard to the latter portion of Deputy Dillon's speech as to exploiting tourist resources and sporting rights that might be associated with forestry. There are many people interested in that question who would be entirely in agreement with Deputy Dillon in that, and who believe that there could be an immense amount of development in that respect. Naturally I hear a lot about that because West Wicklow from Blessington to Baltinglass is one of the areas where forestry has been developed, and where there is considerable sport in the way of shooting. Quite a number of people in that area believe that there could be a big development on the lines Deputy Dillon has described.

My real purpose in rising, however, was to ask a few questions with regard to those large sales of timber in connection with which £2,000 is expected to be realised this year, the same amount as last year. Evidently there is sale of timber apart from the timber utilised at the sawmills. Would there not be a greater return from that timber if sawmills were erected in the vicinity where the timber is ripe for cutting? Apparently we have this position: That in certain places they utilise the timber that is ripe for cutting in sending it to sawmills; in other places they sell the timber unprepared. The amount of timber sold in this undressed way is obviously considerable. The sales this year are expected to realise £2,000, the same as last year. Would it not be advantageous to have sawmills in the vicinity of the area where that timber is to be cut down? Incidentally, I would like to know from the Minister is that timber being sold at an entirely uneconomic price, or is it expected that these sales will, in time, pay for the cost of growing? A question one is often asked is how long it will take the Forestry Department to become self-supporting.

Further, has the Department in mind, with regard to these supplies of timber, whether there could not be appropriate industries established to utilise such timber? I think there was, some years ago, an idea that in areas most thickly planted the Department would endeavour, as timber became ripe for cutting, to establish manufactures of wood in close proximity to the areas where timber is available. Naturally we would like to hear a good deal about the future of the Forestry Department, and the possibility of making the fullest use of the trees grown, so that we may be able to see how far these trees will not merely supply timber for ordinary commercial purposes, but will be helpful in the way of woodwork and woodturning industries similar to what are to be found in forest areas on the Continent. That is, roughly, the question which I was eager to put to the Minister. In respect of the general Estimate, he is to be congratulated on the considerable progress which has been made in tree-planting.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I feel that I am rather a trespasser in this discussion. So far as my county is concerned, and so far as my province is concerned, the Minister for Lands and Forests in the Irish Free State might as well be the Minister for Lands and Forests in Kamschatka. This is an entirely theoretical matter so far as Connacht is concerned and it is purely theoretical as far as my constituency is concerned. As there is no hope of an invasion of Connacht, except, possibly, in respect of one of the units of which the Minister spoke, I feel that I can be regarded as an outsider in this debate. It is interesting once a year for a person like myself to hear that there is a Forestry Department. It is interesting once a year to be made aware that there is a Vote of £154,000 for this Department. So far as Connacht is concerned and so far as the Gaeltacht is concerned, that is the sole evidence of the existence of the Forestry Department. Deputy Moore is in a very happy position. He can get up here and talk of the lovely trees that are springing up, bit by bit, in County Wicklow. We are in a completely different position. I want to know from the Minister when this question of the afforestation of the West of Ireland is going to be seriously tackled. Why is not the Gaeltacht the first place in which this forestry programme, or any forestry programme, is put in force? It is all very well to say that there are difficulties about planting the Gaeltacht. There are difficulties about planting every place. If you do not put down the right type of timber it will not thrive. If you go to some of the most remote parts of Mayo you will see where trees were planted at one time, or where they are now being planted by private enterprise, and where they are flourishing and flourishing exceedingly. What is the reason for this complete concentration on other parts of the country and this complete neglect of a part of the country which should not be neglected?

At present, I know that poverty is stalking all over the country. Poverty is stronger and more vigorous—if I may use that expression—in the Gaeltacht than it is elsewhere. Yet, there can be a considerable amount of money spent in wages in connection with this Department in certain parts of the country and not a single penny spent in those areas which, in my humble judgment, are the areas which should be first planted. Though I am only theoretically interested in this matter, and will for a considerable time continue to be only theoretically interested in it, still, as a member of the House, I should like to get some information less vague and less indefinite than that contained in the very bald and entirely unsatisfactory statement with which the Minister introduced this Estimate. This is not the first time I have drawn attention to the Minister's method of introducing this Forestry Estimate. We are told absolutely nothing save that, in a certain area, a certain number of trees were planted. We are given absolutely no particulars. Have they any theory on this matter in the Department of Forestry at all? Are they proceeding like blind men in the Department or have they intelligences? Are they using those intelligences? Have they any plan? What particular type of trees are they planting? Are they planting hard-wood or are they planting conifers and what is the proportion? What is their view as to the subsequent user of the timber they are planting? No intelligent person plants for this generation. The man who plants now must plant largely for the needs and wants of 30 years or 40 years hence in the case of certain classes of timber, and for a much further period for another class of timber. We get no information on that subject. We want trees and we are planting trees, and one would imagine that the Minister had no idea that there was more than one variety of tree in the world. I wonder if the Minister knows that there is more than one variety of tree. Is he able to distinguish between the deciduous and evergreen tree and can he not give us some idea of which class is being planted?

Has the Minister or his experts formed any views as to the trees which will be required some years ahead? Have they said that there will probably be a demand for larch poles 30 or 40 years hence and that they will put down so many larch? Have they said that there will be a demand for deal boards and that they will put down so many spruce, or that there will be a demand for Scotch fir for egg boxes? Have they made an estimate of what is the consumption of timber now in this country, and have they arrived at the conclusion that, in all human probability, the same proportion of timbers will be required 30, 40, or 50 years hence? They should work upon some intelligent basis; but there can be no intelligent basis behind the Minister's policy because he does not seem to have any policy. He says: "I shall try and grow a tree in my nursery." It does not seem to matter what sort of tree. If the Minister has any policy he should tell us what he is planting for. Two years ago, I asked the Minister if he was trying any experiments in regard to the growing of the modern poplars—the new, quick-growing poplars which created rather a sensation. I asked whether any of these trees were being grown in any of his nurseries and what classes of the more modern types of tree were succeeding in this country. These are questions with which one would expect the Minister to deal in his opening statement if he knew the first thing about his work. So far as one can gather, the Minister knows nothing about his work. If he does, he is certainly keeping the knowledge carefully shut up in his own mind. As was shown by the various statements of the Minister here, he is not a person to hide his own light under a bushel. We heard him taking credit to himself for the distribution of land although he subsequently had to own that, in that regard, he was a complete outsider and had nothing more to do with any of the reserved services than any member of this House. Yet he could try to take unto himself yesterday a glory he did not deserve.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sufficient for yesterday is the glory thereof.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I agree. Now I come to the darkness and the obscurities of to-day, which I am contrasting with the light which the Minister tried to seize yesterday. The darkness of to-day is this, that, if he has any principle at all lying behind the work of this Forestry Department, he has not put that principle forward or let us know what it is. If there were any such intelligent plan behind the work of the Department, and any intelligent ideas in the Minister's head, I do not think he is the person who would conceal these intelligent ideas in the bald and very unsatisfactory statement he made. He complained that he had difficulties about the title to land in some cases. I do not see how that could have kept back the work of his forestry programme, because he admits that he has got unplanted areas in his possession. Whether or not there are difficulties about title which affect what he will spend two or three years from now, that cannot possibly affect the planting of areas to which title has been made, and that are now vested in fee simple in the Land Commission. He admits that he has not kept up the pace that he should keep up, and put forward as an excuse that he was unable to get sufficient trees. He told us of the type of trees he could not get. If young trees are bought, I cannot see that the cost of 1,000 10,000 or 100,000 would be very high. If there is to be a steady pace in connection with forestry work, I cannot see the slightest reason why we should not import seedlings over and above the number which we are prepared to grow in any year, or that any nurseries or seedsmen here could grow. If the difficulty is that seedsmen here cannot at present provide requirements the Department could look forward—if the Minister ever does look forward—for two or three years by indicating to nurserymen that they would want supplies of larch, Scotch fir, spruce, ash, beech or oak, and ask them if they would be able to supply them in two or three years' time. I do not think the Minister would have the slightest difficulty in getting full requirements if that was done. Even without the home nurseries, I believe full requirements could be got at the present time. I cannot see what objection there can be, if planting is held up, and if employment is not being given in areas that are ready for the planting of seedlings, to importing 20,000 or 30,000 Scotch fir from the home of the Scotch fir, from some big highland nurseries like Wiseman's.

Deputy Moore, to a certain extent, touched upon the appropriations-in-aid. The Minister's statement was very unsatisfactory there. He should let the House know what the position is. A sum of £2,000 is mentioned from sales of timber, but that is evidently guesswork, because it coincides with the sum mentioned in 1935-36. We do not know how much actually was received in 1935-36 from sales of timber. The Minister might tell us what was derived from that source. Regarding "small sales of timber and thinnings," I should like to know what thinnings are being put on the market, what price was got, and what thinnings are coming along. I should also like to know at what age thinning out is done, and if a profit is made out of it. Were the trees that were thinned out ten, 15 or 20 years old, and over what area was the work carried out? The House would also like to know if the price got for thinnings makes up for the initial cost, and for replanting. That is information that one would expect from the Minister, if he had thought out the problems to which it is his duty to give attention. I have seldom heard a less satisfactory statement, one that gave less information, than that made by the Minister. Still it is something to know theoretically the result of planting in other parts, so that when our part of the country is planted we may be able to profit by experience derived in areas that are somewhat similar.

I want to emphasise one thing before concluding. We have heard a great deal too much about the ridiculous suggestion that the Connacht mountains cannot be planted. The Connacht mountains can be planted. They bore trees at one time. Where trees grew once they can grow again. Trees have been planted there by private enterprise, even in very small areas, and are doing all right. Even in the most windswept place in Connacht trees have been planted and are flourishing quite well. The suggestion that trees will not do on bog land is disproved by experience. Anybody who goes around the country will notice that a tremendous amount of timber has been cut down. Indeed the only forestry going on in Connacht at the present time is the cutting down of trees. The very fine timber that was cut down within the last ten or 15 years indicates that that timber was grown upon bog land. I do not suppose I will get any information from the Minister as to the policy behind the Department, or what its hopes for the future are. I am asking for the information, but I dare say it is very much like asking for the moon, or really asking for less. Although it might be difficult to get the moon from the sky, at any rate the moon is existent. I am afraid unfortunately that the other thing is non-existent. Even though I am asking for a miracle, for the production of a non-existent thing, at the same time, it is not bad for the country to know that there is no such thing as a Ministerial plan for forestry.

Mr. Goulding

Like Deputy Dillon, I also visted the forestry section in the exhibition at Ballsbridge, but unlike Deputy Dillon I had no difficulty in finding it. Anyone visiting that Exhibition, and examining the charts showing the proportion of timber grown in the various counties, must admit that this is one of the most important Votes we have to consider. There are one or two matters in connection with it to which I should like to refer. I agree with Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney as to the class of timber we should try to produce. Recently I had occasion to go through woods and to examine quite a large acreage in looking for a certain class of timber. I found that practically all the spruce had been cut down and the Scotch fir left. I think it would be advisable that as much spruce as possible should be grown. It is about the most valuable of the soft woods and I think there is a greater future for it than there is for the Scotch fir. We have in our area a considerable amount of Scotch fir and we find that it is almost unsaleable. I do not know if sufficient care is taken to control the cutting of timber in the country at the moment. Portable sawmills are being taken into the woods, and in many cases whole woods have been cut away. That is a pity because after all if we do not leave a considerable amount of standing timber, the timber we are planting at the moment will not afford sufficient shelter in the country for 20 or 30 years to come. I think some check should be put on the wholesale cutting of timber which is being carried on at present in various parts of the country.

It is also important that every effort should be made to utilise land for forestry purposes that may be useless for agricultural purposes before we plant timber on land that might be usefully devoted to agriculture. I have in mind a considerable acreage of woods planted on ground from which people were evicted 80 or 90 years ago. The timber which has grown on this land is not the best timber. Timber grown on land which would be useless for agricultural purposes — craggy, waste land—is far better timber. It appears to be harder and to grow straighter. Such land appears to give much better results in timber growing than land which could be more profitably devoted to agricultural purposes. I sincerely trust that every effort will be made to avail for forestry purposes of the land described by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. Like him, I should prefer to see the waste areas of the country availed of and every effort made to plant timber on them before the more sheltered and more valuable portions of the country from an agricultural point of view are planted. In many cases the reason given for not availing of such land is that it is too exposed. Would it not be possible to try an experiment in this matter? It is rather hard for one who knows very little about agriculture to put forward these suggestions, but it struck me that it would be possible to plant shelter belts first of all. After a few years, when these shelter belts would be sufficiently high it might be possible to make the land available for the planting of other timber. I throw this out as a suggestion because I think it has been done in other countries where these wind-swept areas have been made available for planting by these means.

As to seedlings, when the Minister was speaking it occurred to me that I know a private nursery in my own constituency where seedlings were thrown away. They were offered to the neighbouring farmers going home in the evening. They could get all the seedlings that they cared to take home but thousands of them were literally thrown away. It struck me as peculiar, therefore, that the Minister should have this difficulty about seedlings. This nursery is, I think, still working. When the Minister spoke of the difficulty of getting skilled labour it occurred to me that on many of the estates—well administered estates in the old days, where the owners were really interested in forestry and carried it on in many cases on a scientific basis—you still find skilled men. You find labourers who are accustomed to planting, and foremen and foresters who are really skilled men. There is a danger that with the passing away of these estates this skilled labour will also disappear. There is not very much private planting being done at the moment. If it were possible to get the assistance of these men before they disappear, some of the difficulties experienced in obtaining skilled labour would not arise. After all, it takes some little time to train competent foresters or even the ordinary man to plant trees.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Oh, no.

Mr. Goulding

The men on these estates who have been accustomed to forestry work would be the best men to put in charge of this work.

Mr. Morrissey

I regret that I was not present when the Minister made his opening statement on the Estimate. There are just a few matters on which I should like to get some information if the Minister has not already made them clear to the House. Under sub-head C (1), the Estimate last year was £109,500. This year it is £1,000. There is an explanatory note at the bottom of the page to the effect that the balance of the sum voted last year at the 31st March of this year was £109,000. I do not know, as I say, whether the Minister gave an explanation of that in his opening speech. If he did, I do not want to go into it now, but I hope it was a satisfactory explanation. I hope the Minister was able to explain to the satisfaction of the House what change took place in the policy of the Department, which thought apparently last year that it was necessary to provide a sum of £109,500 and afterwards spent only £500 on that particular service.

Mr. Connolly

That is not so.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister says that that is not so. Unfortunately I was not here when the Estimate was introduced, but I should be glad to hear the Minister again, if he would be so kind as to make the matter clear when concluding the debate. This is, by the way, one of the main services which was to absorb so many of the unemployed in the country. This was the service, we were told, that could be developed if there was a party in power which had a policy to deal with the afforestation of the country. We were told that it would be one of the most valuable services we would have so far as employment was concerned. Yet there has been very little increase in the number employed in this service in four years and at the present rate of progress, I am afraid we cannot depend very much upon this particular Department to reduce in any substantial way the number of persons unemployed in the country. Under one sub-head there is an increase of eight, under another an increase of 15 and all the other sub-heads remain the same. I suppose it would be difficult to give the number of what might be called ordinary labourers employed. That would probably be temporary labour. There is a round sum given for wages, but so far as I can ascertain from the Book of Estimates, there has been practically no increase in the number of people employed in forestry. There has been no substantial increase, certainly, no increase that would make any impression whatever on the number of unemployed.

So far as we can see from this Book of Estimates, any activities which the Department may engage in for the coming year are not likely to give much additional employment. While I am on that question, I would be glad if the Minister would give us an idea as to the wages paid to the labourers employed by the Forestry Department, whether there is a fixed rate of wages or whether the wages paid vary in different parts of the country. I would also like to know what are the wages paid to the permanent labourers employed by the Department, and the wages paid to the labourers employed temporarily. I want to call the Minister's attention to sub-head C (3), and to protest against the wages set out there as the wages that are being paid to those in charge of the sawmills: those who are doing the actual sawing in that mill.

The Minister, I think, has some personal knowledge himself of the work that has to be performed in a sawmills. He knows that it is hard work and, sometimes, dangerous work, particularly when the sawmills are in a wood or a forest where timber of all shapes and sizes is brought to the mill, and has there to be handled and squared before being converted into scantlings of different sizes. That, as I have said, is not only hard and laborious work, and to an extent dangerous work, but it is skilled work. As the Minister knows, it is only skilled men who will get the full value out of a piece of timber that is brought into a sawmills. In view of that, does he consider that 35/- a week is a sufficient wage to pay to men who are performing that class of work? Would the Minister also tell us how the wages paid in the Department's sawmills compare with the wages paid to men in the same trade who are employed in sawmills run by private owners? So far as I know, the wages paid by the Department are considerably lower than the wages paid to men in the same trade in outside employment. If we are to take it—and we have to take it as it is set out in this book of Estimates that 35/- a week is the inclusive rate—that the Department consider that a sufficient wage to pay the men performing the type of work that I have referred to, then we must conclude that the wages paid to the ordinary labourers, to the men felling, carting and cleaning timber must be very low indeed.

If the Minister has the figures available, I would be glad to have information from him as to the number of trees planted in Tipperary during the last year, and also whether the Department are still insisting that the minimum number of acres which may be taken over by it for planting is 200. That used to be the regulation, but I do not know whether the Department is adhering to it or not. If they are, I think it is time that they departed from it, because there are many places in the country covering not, perhaps, quite 200 acres which, in my opinion, could be very usefully planted both from the scenic point of view and the point of view of getting ahead with reafforestation in the country. I would also like to have information from the Minister as to what extent, if any, the replanting of trees is being insisted on in the case of persons who get permits to cut down timber. I am afraid that requirement is not being observed at all, certainly not to any great extent. Even at the present time a considerable number of trees are being cut down in the country, and I am not at all sure whether permits are obtained in every case. I do not know whether the law in that respect is being enforced. The position would not be so bad if people were made comply with the law and replant a tree for every one they cut down.

There has been a good deal of talk as to the classes of timber that the Department should concentrate on having grown in the country. We must assume that the officials of the Department are good judges of the classes of timber that are most suitable for growing here, and that are likely to give the best and the quickest results. At this time, when we hear so much talk about self-sufficiency, we ought, when considering the classes of timber that are being planted, to have our eye on the day when we will be able to produce here at home all the different classes of timber that will be required for whatever woodwork has to be done. I would like to know from the Minister whether he has given any directions to his Department in that respect? Some of the timber that is being grown in the country is practically useless except for firewood, and some of it is not even good for that. If hard woods can be grown in the country, and grown successfully— it is doubtful, I think, whether they can be grown in a general way successfully—the Minister ought to let us know to what extent hard woods can be grown, and to what extent his Department are being advised as to the necessity for planting and growing them.

When the Minister is replying, I would like to have an explanation from him in regard to what I consider the low wages that are being paid for the class of work that is being done in the sawmills and also as to the rate of wages paid to the general body of workers employed by the Forestry Department. Would he also say whether he is in a position to tell us if it is likely that his Department will require a greater number of men this year in dealing with the activities of the Department than they did last year, and, if so, what is the extra number of men that he hopes to be able to give employment to in the coming 12 months?

Mr. Kehoe

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, in winding up his rather critical speech, made the remark that the opening statement of the Minister was unsatisfactory. I would like to know, incidentally, what statement of any Minister under any possible circumstance, or set of circumstances, would be satisfactory to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney? No doubt that question has not much to do with timber, but still I think it is relevant. Now, I would like to pay a tribute to the Minister. The charge of vagueness has been levelled against him. I think there is no man in this House less deserving of having that charge made against him. I think he is as direct as any man could possibly be. By training and tradition he is admirably fitted with those qualities of incisiveness which ought to mark the occupant of the Ministry of Lands and Forestry. I sympathise with him. He meets with very great difficulties in his present post. Deputies are sometimes asked, for instance, to get certain areas planted. They are deluged with inquiries as to whether this or that area can be planted, and they are rated in no uncertain terms by people who want those areas planted. We all know that lands which are generally allocated for forestry are not so good for anything else. Very good land does not grow good timber, and very medium quality and stony land certainly grows the best quality timber.

The average Deputy—I take it for granted the same is true on all sides of the House—is faced with certain difficulties. When a constituent asks him to get a certain area planted and he puts that proposition to the Minister for Lands, and when the Minister for Lands in turn tries to make arrangements with the very people who want the areas planted, he is met with the most extraordinary and in some cases with the most ludicrous difficulties. It is marvellous how shingly, stony land, which is only fit for growing timber, land which is numbered by thousands of acres in every county in Ireland, quickly becomes valuable when the Minister for Lands wishes to acquire it. Land which people are only too ready to get rid of in order that they will not have to meet the burden of the annuities payable on it, and in order that they will not have to pay the rates on it, land which is practically worthless in those people's eyes, develops a marvellous value when the Government sets its eye on it with a view to planting it, although the people who live in those areas have been most insistent in their demands for planting up to that. I do not know how far the legal difficulties could be got over, but certainly when one is acquiring land the difficulties connected with title seem to be almost insuperable. When the Government is acquiring large areas of land for the purposes of forestry, if there were some way in which the settlement of legal difficulties could be expedited to a greater extent than they are in ordinary transactions, it would be a very good thing.

As I say, my sympathies are with the Minister. He is more than anxious and more than willing to do certain things, but the very people who put up propositions are the people who make matters hard for him afterwards. As regards the quality of timber, it is not for the ordinary layman to interfere with the work of the Department of Lands and Forestry, who must be presumed to know their own business. I think, however, that the prevalence of coniferous timber in this country, whilst it is valuable and whilst it comes to maturity very quickly, is not a good thing. Planting of any kind must be looked at as a long-term investment, but as well as the monetary value attached to those things, there is also the cultural value. If, instead of the old deciduous timber, the Irish ash and elm and oak, there is nothing but groves of coniferous trees studded over the country, I take it that our successors in time to come will see nothing but a miniature Switzerland, dotted with chalets here and there, with red concrete tiles and that kind of thing. I think the Irish oak and ash, with the farmhouses nestling peacefully amongst them, were much more in conformity with our landscape. I think the presence of coniferous timber, although it matures very quickly, would not be a good thing in our Irish landscape if it preponderates too largely. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney spoke rather naïvely about timber not maturing for at least 30 years. I do not want to misquote him. As a matter of fact, I think everyone knows that people who plant larch trees can in 15 years' time hope to reap the result of their labours.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It will only be thinning, but he will not get larch matured for 40 years.

Mr. Kehoe

I think larch 20 years old would do more than gate-posts. It would do ladder-poles.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

But it does not fully mature for 40 years.

Mr. Kehoe

I think no person need be deterred by that from planting timber, individually or collectively. On the question of green timber, I should like to know from the Minister if any special provision has been made for growing ash by itself. When we speak of green timber and mention ash in relation to it I think we are mentioning the most important deciduous—I think that is the correct term—timber of the lot. There is a great scarcity of ash in the country now, and that is becoming more marked of recent years owing to the athletic activities of the G.A.A., who use terrific quantities of ash. Without becoming in any way technical, I need hardly remind the House that in the manufacture of hurleys, or camáin as they are properly known, there is only one timber which could possibly be used, and that is ash. Nothing else is a substitute. The supply of ash is becoming depleted more rapidly than anyone would deem possible, and I think if plantations of ash are laid down—possibly they are, for all I know—it would be as good an investment as possible for the future athletic welfare of the youth of Ireland. It is not a luxury; it is a necessity. I know it takes a long time to mature, but a beginning must be made some time.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

How many years would the Deputy say it would take before a bit of ash would be fit to make a camán?

Mr. Kehoe

I suppose you would knock a couple of camáin out of it in about 10 or 12 years, although that is too slow, judging by the rate of demolition which any Deputy in this House can see if he pays a visit to Croke Park on any Sunday. I think that if the Department could possibly arrange for lectures on forestry to be given in the schools throughout the country it would do a lot to make Ireland more tree-conscious. No Ministry or no Government can help in this matter unless the populace at large are made tree-conscious. In comparison with our neighbours across the Channel and elsewhere we are sadly lacking in that way. We are not to blame, of course, because it is a legacy from an imperial legislature. There is no doubt at all about that. Those Gaelic Leaguers in the House who have heard the good old ballad, "Seán Ua Duibhir a Gleanna," know that that lament arose out of the hearts of those who saw trees being felled in order that the houseless and homeless of the time would fall an easy prey to the English soldiery of that day. Not alone in cutting the woods did they commit a flagrant crime, but they destroyed our national continuity to such an extent that the ordinary virtues, such as pride of culture in the sense of forestry, and other ordinary virtues of that kind, are largely missing from our Gaelic make-up of to-day. That is another thing for which we have to thank our friends across the Channel. Our national continuity was destroyed. Events such as have been alluded to by a Deputy here, where seedlings were given to different farmers and they did not plant them, would be impossible in an Ireland whose national continuity had not been checked. I think it is the duty of the Department to build up that continuity as far as possible by giving lectures on forestry, showing lantern-slides in the schools and adopting other suggestions which no doubt will occur to the present Minister.

With regard to the cutting of timber, I think a good deal of trees are cut and that there is no subsequent planting. Deputy Morrissey is quite accurate in that; trees are felled surreptitiously. Of course it is the function of the Gárdaí to detect that. and I take it that if their attention is drawn to the matter, and pressure is brought to bear on them, they will spend more of their spare time in attending to it. Of course in certain parts of the country there have been tragedies in regard to tree-felling, with no subsequent planting, which certainly would not occur in any other country in the world. The only fault. I have to find with this Estimate is that there is not enough money allocated. I presume there is a reason for that. As I say, the Department know their own business. This planting, after all, is the best long-term investment any country can have. Minor relief schemes, factories, and all those things, while excellent in their way, will not fill the rôle which planting and forestry will fill, because the day will come when it will be extremely valuable. I think the House is at one on this subject. It is a most gratifying symptom which does not often occur. Unquestionably, there is a shortage of timber, and I am sure the Department are doing their best to make up that shortage in every way; but "if all wood fail," we shall only have to fall back on the Opposition for material!

Mr. McGovern

Might I ask the Minister if he has any scheme of planting for County Cavan? I think that no county in Ireland is worse off in this respect. During the period of the troubled times, promising plantations, scattered fairly generally throughout the county, were cut away. They were not much use to anybody, but since they have been cut away, the sites of these plantations are eyesores, and many districts are suffering from lack of shelter. Cavan is a wind-swept county with high hills, especially in the western area, and there is a lot of inferior land which suffers by reason of want of protection from a timber belt. I think the Minister should consider some scheme for planting these districts. If the particular sites cannot be taken over for the purpose of afforestation, I suggest there should be some scheme to encourage the occupiers or owners to plant them. The Minister should see that they be encouraged in some way to plant these waste lands, because they are not much good for anything else.

The whole county feels the loss of these young woods which have been cut away. Every part of Cavan is denuded of timber, and there is a great shortage of timber, and I suggest that the people should be encouraged to sell any of the matured timber that does exist; but the Minister should see to it that, when that timber is cut and sold, it is replaced by planting more than they cut down. By doing that, the Minister would be serving a double purpose, because there is a shortage of timber and a shortage of young plantations. What he should do is to encourage the planting of young timber and the cutting of the old, matured timber. I know that, scarce as timber is, there is some timber which is becoming absolutely useless, because it is too old, and it would be a mistake to discourage the cutting down of such timber. What is wanted is more general planting of young timber. Cavan is in a bad way in that respect, and I would ask the Minister to consider that carefully.

With regard to the 200 acre limit, I do not know if there is such a limit, but I think it is entirely too high. It may not be economical for the Minister's Department to undertake the planting of small areas, but if smaller areas were planted at shorter distances apart, they could be used as one plantation. If 50 acre sites were taken up for planting purposes, within a reasonably short distance of each other, I believe it would be much more beneficial to the community generally, because shelter is very important and has a great effect on the climate of a district, and especially a mountainous district. Parts of West Cavan are very mountainous, and they would require a large distribution of plantations. One 200 acre plantation would not be one-quarter the benefit that four 50 acre plantations would be in a district.

With regard to the quality of timber, I think larch would be very useful. There is one thing about larch—it comes into use in a very short time. In nine or ten years it is fit for general purposes, such as ladder poles and other purposes. It is a hard timber that comes in early, and the thinning gives room to the rest to come on. It should be freely used in every young planting. Another matter which I have learned from people who know more about timber than I do is that larch is not suitable for every sort of land, so that the quality of the land should be taken into account. I need not stress that point, because I am quite sure the Minister has experts to advise him on such matters. There are other rocky lands which are incapable of growing larch at all, and such timber could be left out of that sort of land whenever planting is carried out on them. There are other classes of land of an inferior sort, however, which will grow very good larch, and larch should be planted on such land, and the private people who are planting plantations should be encouraged to grow larch, mixed with other classes of timber, on such lands.

I hope the Minister will not forget County Cavan, because it is a hilly and very bare county which needs attention. There is a great deal of unemployment there, and the provision of plantations would serve to relieve that unemployment to some extent, and would also be doing something to shelter the land of the county. It would also provide timber in the future. It is actually very scarce at the moment, and it will continue to grow scarcer from year to year unless a scheme of planting certain areas is undertaken by the Department.

Mr. J. Flynn

I should like to see afforestation on a big scale, and, in my opinion, a much larger area of land should have been acquired than has been acquired for this purpose. As against that, I realise that the Department was faced with certain difficulties, some of which have been referred to by Deputy Kehoe, such as people failing to agree on the prices offered, and other such difficulties. The blame can be shared equally by those people and by the Department. So far as our county is concerned, we were amazed to find that certain areas, which everyone regarded as being suitable for afforestation, had been adversely reported on. I understand that one of the arguments put forward was that, by reason of certain acids in the soil, and one thing and another, these areas were not suitable for afforestation. As against that, we can point out that extensive afforestation was carried on over these same areas in previous years. These plantations were destroyed during the Great War period, thousands of acres being cut down and exported to England and other countries. If that type of land was suitable for afforestation purposes over a century or two centuries, how is it that they are now adversely reported on? I can state, with the knowledge I have of those areas, that some of the finest larch in Ireland, or probably in any other country, has been grown on these mountain sides and certain valleys between the mountainy districts in Kerry.

Now that the Minister has acquired the services of an expert who has a wide and varied knowledge of afforestation, we hope that our county will benefit by the scheme and that we will get special consideration. I appeal for special consideration because our county is very suitable for afforestation purposes. The climatic conditions down there are very suitable. The mountain slopes are sheltered and, in my opinion, are second to none in this country. Perhaps I might be excused for referring particularly to one point, and that is that on the south coast of Kerry we have semi-tropical plants, and the only other place in the British Isles where you have a similar area, or an area that could produce such plants, is in south Cornwall. Yet they tell us that our county is not suitable for afforestation purposes. I think that this matter should be investigated again. I believe that in certain areas the Minister should have compulsory powers to acquire land for afforestation purposes. The scheme, as it stands at the moment, could not be suitable for counties like County Kerry. When I say that, I mean that an area of land, to be economical and to be regarded as suitable for afforestation purposes, is taken to be a 300-acre plot, but in so far as certain portions of our county are concerned, that is impossible because of the nature of the county. It would be difficult, for the most part, to get a 300-acre belt of land there, and I would suggest as an alternative that the Minister, if it were possible, should get the Department to agree to a grouping of areas; for instance, that there would be a fair-sized plot, provided it is otherwise suitable, of 100 acres or thereabouts, and that, within a radius of three or five miles, other plots could be worked in with it as a group, making a total of 300 or 400 acres. To my mind, that would be suitable to mountain areas, and it would also be economical. I would submit that to the Minister, so far as our county is concerned.

We in Kerry certainly looked forward, not alone to this year, but for years back, to the hope that afforestation would be especially suited to our people. Through our position, we are not able to avail of the industrial programme in this country. As was said by an expert in the Department of Industry and Commerce, Kerry is at the dead end. He meant that Kerry was not suitable or central enough as a distributing centre. That meant, of course, that our hope of having a factory or some big commercial or industrial enterprise was very remote. Therefore, in view of all these factors, schemes such as the afforestation scheme are our great hope and outlook.

In conclusion, I should like to know what has been done in regard to an area of land in South Kerry which I think has been taken over, or is about to be taken over, by the Minister's Department for afforestation purposes. I refer to the Colonel Hood estate. I agree with what Deputy Kehoe said in regard to the people. We have done our part as representatives of the people in so far as we have tried to induce every person with a parcel of land, that we thought would be suitable, irrespective of politics or anything else, to co-operate with us and assist us in availing of the afforestation schemes, but when inspectors came along, we found that these people, as Deputy Kehoe pointed out, suddenly advanced their prices and raised objections one way or another. That, to my mind, is one of the big factors that has held us up. The reason that I suggest that the Minister should have compulsory powers to acquire land for afforestation purposes is that, in certain areas where land is not suitable for afforestation purposes, but where there is a certain estate—there are two or three estates in our district, such as the Lord Kenmare estate, the McGillycuddy estate, and one or two others—and where we cannot find land suitable for afforestation purposes, the Minister should have powers to acquire compulsorily these lands from these vested interests or from the representatives of whatever landlord is concerned. I think that the same system should apply in that case as in the case of acquiring land for other purposes. and that the same system of compensation should apply. It would serve a very useful purpose because, otherwise, a very useful afforestation scheme in that part of the county would be lost to the county. Then, when other plots or holdings would be rejected, the Minister and the Department could come along and acquire these very suitable areas for afforestation purposes.

I know myself that the Minister and the Department are up against tremendous difficulties, and as far as we are concerned we will try to make constructive suggestions so as to help the Minister and the Department. We find, however, that in those areas the people themselves are to blame to a great extent. They put up all kinds of objections in regard to rights of way and so on—objections of one kind or another—and thereby the whole scheme is held up. I appeal to the Minister to have, at the earliest possible moment, a re-survey in regard to some of the areas I have mentioned.

Mr. McMenamin

If this debate proceeds much longer the Minister, I am afraid, will be left completely in the wood. It would be a very good advertisement for forestry if the House could be removed to Ballsbridge as part of the advertisement the Department have out there. I feel somewhat like Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney on this Vote, but, unlike him, I am not completely without hope. Deputy Dillon wanted to know the technical difficulties in the way of growing timber on bogland. Is Deputy Dillon so innocent as all that, to be quite content with an explanation from the Minister or the Department as to what is the technical difficulty in growing timber on bogland? I do not suppose there has been a year since the House was instituted when some Deputy was told of those technical difficulties. I do not want to say all the harsh things I could say in that connection.

Deputies who have spoken from the Government Benches have been extremely kind to the Minister. I remember that at the last two general elections afforestation was part of the plan. Fianna Fáil were to employ all the unemployed; they were to keep them from emigrating. The hillsides in my own constituency were to be covered with these men and no more would their eyes turn west to the Atlantic. So infatuated did people become in connection with this portion of the Fianna Fáil policy that flappers were visualising that in a few years they would be walking through the forests, that they would be in a perfect dreamland. As a matter of fact, I heard of people who had long passed the flapper stage perorating on the great advantages of afforestation. Whatever their views are now I do not know. The flappers have got a few years older and the older ones have got still older and the only regret is that this policy was not even partially applied.

No doubt the Minister will say that the main objection even to partially planting a constituency like mine is because the mountains run from east to west. I should not be surprised if he suggested to me that I should undertake the work of turning them round and making them run north to south so that he would have one side of the mountains sheltered in order to grow wood. If I went to the trouble of turning the mountains he probably would tell me that I had not done it correctly, that there was some flaw and he could not proceed with the work. The fact is that we have these difficulties so far as the whole range from Donegal to Cork is concerned. From the Department's angle the mountain ranges run from east to west and hence neither side is sheltered. The Department tell us that timber cannot be grown on bogland and hence the policy of afforestation, which was to absorb the unemployed in this country, has disappeared. The Department has landed itself in the County Wicklow, down in the dells of Avoca, down with Deputy Moore.

What Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney said with regard to the whole Western seaboard seemed rather overdrawn, but as a matter of fact it is literally true. The Minister said that they planted two nurseries in my constituency, one at Pettigo and one at Stranorlar. They have done so. As regards Stranorlar, they have taken over portion of the demesne land attached to the mansion house on the Drumboe estate, and they are planting trees there. But that does not get us anywhere. There were many more trees on the Drumboe estate prior to the period when it was taken over. I am not suggesting that the Department should have prevented the cutting of the timber, but it is regrettable that the piece of land along the River Finn should have been denuded of its trees. In former years it was a most beautiful piece of scenery, but now it is a horrible sight. I raised this matter before, and the Minister said it would cost too much to prepare the land for replanting. I wonder is it going to remain an eyesore much longer? It was a beautiful piece of scenery when the timber was there, but now it is a wretched, barren area. One would think that huge bombs had been dropped on that area, so badly torn up is the place. What will the Department do with it? Are they going to leave it an eyesore?

With regard to the technical difficulty of growing timber on bogland, it is quite useless for any technical adviser to tell me that timber cannot be grown on bogland. I do not accept that. Let the Minister put aside his technical advisers and try it. I spent my life mostly on bogland. I spend all my holidays on the bogs, over the moors. Anybody who knows anything about these places is aware that it is quite possible to grow timber there. Let me recall the statement in the Government advertisement for turf about the period when the elk roamed over this country. It is evident that very good and very large timber then grew in these places. How did that occur? Anybody who knows anything about the bog areas from Donegal to Kerry knows that huge timber at one time grew there. Was it because the elk disappeared that the timber disappeared and that the land became no longer fit for growing timber?

It is all right to say that it means work, but everything means work. Of course it means draining these places, but the Government at least should do what they promised to do. The people got enthusiastic about tree-planting, and everybody would like the thing to be done. At the last two elections the Government came along with an oratorical campaign about afforestation, and everybody was glad. The oratory has disappeared, but have the promises been kept? Apparently nothing at all is to be done. So far as Connaught is concerned, Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney says that the Department might as well not exist. He says the whole thing is purely theoretical. Is not that a terrible reflection on the promises that were made to these people? Is the Minister going to do anything for the large area along the Western seaboard? I am not so innocent or foolish or fantastic as to suggest that along that portion of the seaboard immediately affected by the Atlantic storms you can grow timber. I know that that would be quite impossible; the trees would never come to anything But inland it is a different matter.

Deputy Little raised the question of game. There are one or two things which I would like to know about that £800 Appropriations-in-Aid from rent, shootings, grazings, etc. I take it that since that calculation was made further areas that had been game shoots were taken over by the Department and are now about to be planted. I am dealing with areas that had been planted in the past, those taken over last year as well as those about to be taken over. The Department is taking rents for them. I would like to know from the Minister what service is being given for those rents? Is it a question merely of taking rents and doing nothing at all about the preservation of those shoots? Has that aspect of it been completely neglected? Are gamekeepers being paid to see after those places, and are the vermin being exterminated? I am asking these questions because possibly the Department may be overlooking that aspect of the matter. The Department is taking over huge tracts, and if the game is not looked after we might find that in the course of a few years the entire game value of the place might be destroyed. I suggest to the Minister and to the Department that attention might be paid to that aspect of the matter if it has not been paid already. I know they are taking over thousands of acres in the midst of valuable shoots belonging to other people. When these places are taken over they are very heavily wired so as to prevent trespass on the plantations. From that it follows that nobody except the foresters can enter there. Such places might become a very safe preserve for the vermin in the forestry area itself as well as in the surrounding area. Under these circumstances there would be the danger that in a few years the vermin would rapidly increase owing to the shelter given there, and thereafter their eradication would be very difficult.

With regard to the question raised by Deputy Dillon of the stocking of those planted areas with game, I foresee some practical difficulty, not in the immediate future but later on. Grouse can live on these areas for probably eight or ten years but after that time they will disappear because by then the trees will be too high. Small red game from Norway would need to be brought in there. The main question at the moment is that while the Department are taking rents for the shoots, it should do something in the way of protecting the game and it should be active in the destruction of vermin. I hope that the inauguration of those two nurseries in my constituencies will be followed up with the inauguration of at least an attempt to see what can be done about those boglands on the sheltered side of the mountain, the lands that run from north to south irrespective of those running from east to west.

Mr. Gibbons

I wish to associate myself with Deputy Kehoe in making a plea to the Minister that in all planting schemes of the Forestry Department a fair proportion of the trees planted should be ash. The national pastime is dependent on the supply of hurleys for the youth of the country. As the game of hurling is becoming increasingly popular the quantity of ash required for the manufacture of camáin will increase as the population increases and as the game grows in popularity. Representations on this matter have been made by the G.A.A. to the Minister whose attitude has been more than sympathetic. I wish to emphasise the plea that was made by Deputy Kehoe and to reinforce the representations made by the G.A.A. I hope these representations will have the desired effect and that the officials of the Forestry Department will meet the wishes of the national organisation in this important matter. There is a good deal of employment given in the manufacture of hurleys. Ash is a very profitable timber and, from the point of view of giving employment in small industries here and there through rural Ireland in the manufacture of hurleys, there is a prospect of this becoming a useful national asset.

Reference has been made by Deputy McGovern to the 300-acre area which the Forestry Department regards as the base for planting operations in a district. In many counties there is little difficulty in procuring the 300 statute acre area base. But if small parcels of land in the immediate vicinity can be acquired, they could be worked by the forester in charge of the larger area. I know from experience that it is not very economical to start forestry planting operations on an area of less than 300 acres if it can be avoided, but there are special circumstances and conditions sometimes obtaining in some counties which give force to the view-point expressed by Deputy McGovern. I trust the Minister will give that its deserved consideration. In some counties there is little difficulty in acquiring sufficient land. In many places it is readily available and easily obtainable and there is no difficulty regarding the price. People know the maximum price paid by the Department for land acquired for forestry. As far as Kilkenny is concerned, there seem to be long delays in respect of the acquisition of forestry land by the Department in the past two years. I know there are the usual legal formalities, such as securing title and so on. I hope that steps will be taken to expedite the handing over of these lands to the Department so that planting operations may proceed more quickly. As we know, tree planting improves the climate and it increases the national wealth. In addition, forestry operations have a very large labour content — practically 100 per cent. labour content, and the money that is involved in the acquisition of land for planting schemes generally goes back to the people and circulates amongst them.

One reason why planting is not proceeding as quickly as some Deputies, and perhaps the Minister, would wish is because of the insufficiency of the supply of young stock. That brings us to the establishment of nurseries. Judging from Deputy McMenamin's speech, I take it that it is the intention of the Department to establish nurseries in Donegal and in other parts of the country. I am aware that a nursery has been established in Kilkenny. It is very necessary to get seedlings and young stock. I suggest that the Minister and the Department should concentrate immediately on the provision of nurseries, so that planting will go ahead at a reasonably rapid rate and that the programme laid down by the Department will be got through within a reasonable time. References were made to the planting of some good land in Kilkenny County. I made representations to the Department in respect of Castlemorris, and the reason they gave was that a nursery was being established there, that the parcels of good land in the Castlemorris demesne—the portions remaining with the house; the remainder was divided some years ago—were in and out through wooded portions and, consequently, it was not possible to distribute them amongst the neighbouring people who were looking for land, some of them perhaps uneconomic holders.

I ask that the land which is so readily available in so many counties, particularly in County Kilkenny, should be acquired as quickly as possible, and that the legal difficulties which, apparently, stand in the way, should be got over with as little delay as possible. As to the planting of a reasonable proportion of ash in all planting schemes, I know that will have the sympathetic consideration of the Minister and his Department. I have nothing further to add, as this matter has been discussed at length and every aspect of it has been taken into account, and I know of the interest which the Minister takes in afforestation.

Mr. Brennan

It would appear from the decrease in the amount of land proposed to be taken over this year and which is explained in the footnote that the Minister must have been confronted with unforeseen difficulties in the acquisition of land. Forestry is a matter in which every Deputy is deeply interested, and there is considerable disappointment that there has not been more advance made. Various difficulties lie in the way, but eventually this Government or their successors, or somebody else, will have to remove those difficulties, as they will have to be got over. The basic 300-acre tract for forestry will eventually have to be departed from in some way. The Minister and his Department, in my opinion, ought to direct their attention to finding a scheme which they can work, even though they do depart from that. There are various tracts of land all over the country of from 50 to 100 acres that certainly ought to be planted. It would, of course, increase the national wealth and improve the amenities of the country; it would possibly lead to better health and would, generally, be a great asset to the country. Sooner or later that will have to be got over and perhaps the Minister and his officials will be able to set their minds to it and get over it.

Another matter which has impressed me for a long time is that there are various hillsides in this country and other spots which would be picturesque if they were planted, and which are calling for plantation. Possibly the acreage that would allow of planting would be small, but I know farmers who would be willing to give five or ten acres to be planted by the Department. I know the Department give a grant of a certain amount for plantation purposes, but it is not sufficient to meet the expenditure. The Minister may say in reply that, if the trees are eventually to become the property of the farmer who gives the land, he ought at least to bear some of the expenditure on plantation. The Minister or his successor, however, will realise that if this is to be done the State will have to do it. After all, the farmer is giving up the use of a particular portion of his land. It has struck me for a long time that this is something that ought to be done by the Forestry Department.

We have in the neighbourhood of various towns all over the country hillsides, bogland, and quite good land, ten or 12 or 20 acres of which would be freely given by the owner to be planted. Of course, I do not mean that he would hand over the ownership of the land to the Land Commission, but if they planted it and fenced it in, he could become the caretaker. That is a thing that, in my opinion, will have to be done sooner or later if we are going to make this country what it ought to be, and I would specially recommend the matter to the Minister for his attention.

My attention was drawn recently to a district in the parish of Ballinlough, near Clonfad in the County Roscommon. The parish priest asked me if I could draw the attention of the Forestry Department to that district. I understand that there are about 200 acres of land there which, in the opinion of the Land Commission officials, are available for planting, but the Department, because it does not come up to the standard of 300 acres, will not touch it. If we are to pass over 200 acres of land here, 250 acres in another place, and so on, and do not try to get it we will never get on with forestry.

I should like to ask the Minister if it is his intention to continue to insist on 300 acres as the basis of any forestry scheme, or if he intends to depart from that. Of course, if you want to go in for forestry in a big way you will have to plant big tracts and put a forester in charge of them. That is the Minister's idea and was the idea of his predecessor. Sooner or later, however, you will have to get away from that, because you will not get these big tracts to plant. Every mickle makes a muckle we are told, and if we did accept small portions of land, in my opinion in a very short time we would have this country in a fair way as far as forestry is concerned. I recommend these points to the Minister.

Mr. Connolly

I do not know that I can follow accurately all the different statements made and all the different queries made. I will pass over altogether, I think, the remarks made by Deputy Dillon, mainly because I doubt if they were seriously meant, or, if seriously meant, that they ought to be seriously taken. The questions that he raised, so far as they were relevant, I had already more or less but not completely dealt with in my opening statement. I stated that supplies were sought from nurserymen in this country, that all the available supplies of the type we wanted were bought, and that we went outside this country to buy more, and exhausted what was available not only in Great Britain—mainly in Scotland—but also in Denmark and Sweden. We got a considerable supply of plants from Germany which we would have difficulty in getting only that our new Director had contacts there.

Deputy Dillon and several other Deputies raised the question with regard to the expansion of our own nurseries. It is the usual policy of State Forestry Departments to raise the plants in their own nurseries, the main reason being that the foresters know exactly what they produce; they know the quality, and they know that in planting out their own stuff they are taking less risk than planting what was imported.

Several Deputies referred to the question of the acquisition of land. I make no apology for the small quantity acquired so far. There is no need for an apology, because we had acquired more land than we could hope to plant. Coming to the previous figures, we took only this particular £1,000 token Vote under the sub-head for the purchase of land. That was due to the fact that we had £109,000 last year, and we have a rise in our funds up to £118,000. That money does not revert back to the Treasury. It becomes a purchasing fund with regard to forestry. That deals with the question put by Deputy Morrissey. We acquired 15,469 acres at a price of £30,950.

Mr. Morrissey

The question I put to the Minister was why, when an Estimate was asked of the House, amounting to £109,500, the Department only spent £500.

Mr. Connolly

We really spent £30,951, and we had purchased land last year to the value of £26,141, and were only awaiting examination by the examiner of titles.

Mr. Morrissey

According to the Estimate for the last financial year, there was only a sum of £500 spent out of an Estimate of £109,000. That is in the Estimate I am referring to.

Mr. Connolly

Where?

Mr. Morrissey

Sub-head C (1), and on page 242 there is a footnote.

Mr. Connolly

On page 242 of the Forestry Board the only footnote I see is a footnote marked (a), and reads: "The expenditure out of this Grant-in-Aid will be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General; but any unexpended balance of the sums issued will not be liable to surrender at the end of the financial year. The balance as at 31st March, 1936, is estimated to be £109,000." That is where you get your £500. The actual fund at the moment is £118,000 because reserves are carried forward. This is a fund which does not revert back to the Treasury, and so we have £118,000 in our Forestry Land Purchase Fund.

Mr. Morrissey

Why was the House asked to vote £109,000 when you had no notion and no possibility of spending it?

Mr. Connolly

We do not know what we will spend in the purchase of land. The acreage planted was 6,400 acres, and the number of trees planted was 12,000,000. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney made a speech—at least I presume I might call it a speech—but frankly, and with all patience, I want to say I do not think I ever heard more nonsense talked about forestry. It was practically the same speech that he made last year. It was very difficult to follow what he wanted to argue or what he wanted to put forward. I certainly, with all the goodwill in the world, found it difficult. There were one or two questions that emerged. I would like to refer now to one reference he made last year. He spoke about the difficulties in the West and about Mayo in particular. I am glad to say we have our first centre in Mayo of 246 acres, and in Galway 489 acres, and in Leitrim and in Donegal we have a big increase in the areas there. The largest portion is at Lough Derg, in which we hope to have from 2,500 to 3,000 acres planted.

Several Deputies referred to the various grades of timber that were being planted. Of hard-wood, such as oak, and other trees of that nature, approximately 1,000,000 were planted; of larch between 2,000,000 and 2,500,000; of spruce, 4,500,000, and of pines, 6,500,000. That constitutes our total. I am very anxious to get as much hard-woods grown as is possible. Hard-wood trees are very slow in growing. Those who plant them never enjoy the benefits, but it is desirable to have a considerable percentage of them. The Department hold that the most they can use of hard-wood plants in economical forestry and otherwise is between 8 and 10 per cent. That is the position with regard to the types of trees planted. The only difficulty we have with regard to the acquisition of land when we come to deal with the vendor is delay in getting title examined.

It was suggested that we should compulsorily acquire land, if we want to build up forestry, and that we should take power to do so. I should explain we have these powers, and could exercise them. But it is undesirable to use compulsion in forestry, if it can be avoided, and the reason is that forestry requires the goodwill of the people. It can suffer very severely from interference, and unless you have the goodwill, and the good disposition of the people all around, all your fencing will be wasted. That is one of the main reasons, apart from the general line of policy, why we do not want to introduce this method if it can be avoided, and particularly until we have reached the point that we have planted the acreage we can get without compulsion.

With regard to the sale, and future provision for the development of the sales of timber—and when I say timber I include round timber, standard timber and timber that has been processed in some form, even elementary form—I might first explain we do not get land containing a great amount of valuable standing timber. The owners of prime mature standing timber feel they can get a better market for it themselves. That brings up the question of giving them permits. We insist on application being made for a permit to cut, but if the timber is really prime and mature and due for cutting, then, naturally, as a commercial proposition we permit it to be cut. It has been suggested that we have been lax about the cutting of timber. I do not think that that is so. Half-a-dozen files come before me every week for consideration as to whether we will prosecute or not, and we have recently become more drastic in regard to the felling of timber without a permit. To come back to the question of the use of the timbers, we have relatively little standing timber ready for cutting in our hands, and such timber as we do get is frequently of the scrap variety. Land which has been stripped of its valuable timber is offered for sale, and we may acquire it with a view to cleaning up and replanting. As time goes on our own forests will begin to produce, and plans have been thought out and are now in the preliminary stage whereby we shall be able to have travelling sawmills of our own going through the country. We shall operate in the various larger centres for the production of cut-stuff timber. Perhaps I should explain what I mean when I say that. I have no desire to see the Forestry Department going into the competitive field with those who are legitimately engaged in the manufacture of timber, but I am anxious to see that the most is made of the timber we have got. In my judgment the most suitable way in which these timbers can be handled is to have your travelling mill at your forest, have the timber cut down and have it sawn up in what is known in the trade as "squares"—say, 30 x 3 x 2, or 6×12×2, or what you will—so that the drying or seasoning process can be going on while the timber is in the Forestry Department's hands, because that is the only way the timber becomes valuable and the only way by which the most can be got out of it. That, as far as the Department is concerned, has all been considered and planned for the future. I, for one, do not expect to be interested as Minister in the Forestry Department by the time the need for that operation comes along.

Deputy Goulding referred to control of cutting and the planting of waste lands. On that point, we may as well deal with the whole position with regard to the planting of waste lands in the West. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney seems to think that he is an authority on this matter. He may be; I do not know. If he is, he "did not get his stuff across," if I may use an Americanism. I am anxious to plant all the waste lands in the West. I do not want to follow the example of two or three Deputies who made the same speech to-day that they made 12 months ago. Our policy is to plant every area in the West we can plant. Deputy Brennan raised a point with regard to the acreage. The standard unit has been 300 acres. That is the economic unit but, in several cases, we made exceptions where the circumstances seemed to justify our doing so. We have not, however, got below the 200-acre mark and I do not think we can get below it. It is a question of supervision and fencing. I am pressing the Department on the matter and when the new director is operating he will have before him my views and the views of Deputies. He has been reading the reports and he has ascertained the views of people throughout the country and I hope he will be able to work out a scheme whereby smaller units can be gathered together. We have already made clear that if we can get a half-dozen units of from 40 to 50 acres, within a four-mile radius, to make up 250 or 300 acres, we will take it on, though it will not be so economic as the normal forest unit.

Deputy Morrissey raised a question as to wages. I dealt with that question earlier in the day arising out of the Land Commission Vote, and I do not want to bore the House by repeating what I then said. If the Deputy looks up the Report, he will see what my views are and what the position will be for the future.

Mr. Morrissey

Wages in connection with forestry liffer from wages in connection with land division. I should like to hear the Minister on the question of wages as affected by this particular Vote.

Mr. Connolly

I shall come to that question in a moment, though I may not be able to cover it completely.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister is referring to the question of wages?

Mr. Connolly

Yes. The question of the capacity of the Forestry Department to absorb the unemployed was raised. Of course, forestry gives a great deal of employment for from five to six months of the year. Then it slackens off. During portion of the planting season we had upwards of 2,000 people employed. In the off season that number falls to about 500. We hope next year to be able to employ from 2,500 to 3,000 people, reckoning on a plantation programme of about 10,000 acres which I hope to see realised. Whether we shall be able to do that, I do not know; it depends on many circumstances. The wages of sawyers have to be related to the wages paid to the foreman and others in the Department. Foremen get 40/- a week. That is the position in the only place that really matters as regards the wages paid to our men— that is, Dundrum, Tipperary. I agree that the rate is low. I am prepared to admit that it is the lowest sawyers' rate I have ever known. Whether these men are sawyers in my sense of the term or in the Deputy's sense of the term, I am not sure.

Mr. Morrissey

They are so described in the Estimate.

Mr. Connolly

In a country district, such as Dundrum, as the Deputy knows better than I do, you find people of the "handyman" type who are able to do that work.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister is getting on dangerous ground now.

Mr. Connolly

The Deputy may be on dangerous ground. I do not suggest what the remedy is.

Mr. Morrissey

The reason these men are getting only 35/- is because the foreman is getting only £2. That is a most extraordinary explanation.

Mr. Connolly

That is not precisely the explanation. What you probably have there is a handy labourer.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister ought not to make that statement unless he knows the facts.

Mr. Connolly

I am assuming that he must be of that type. Otherwise. I do not see the trade union allowing him to work at that money. I know what has to be paid for sawyers.

Mr. Morrissey

Is there a possibility that there is only a handyman in charge of this sawmill dealing with State timber?

Mr. Connolly

I assume that they are only handymen who are dealing with the operations conducted by the foreman there. I assume that these men have graduated from being labourers to felling timber and so forth. I know the type exactly.

Mr. Morrissey

I hope the Minister will look into the matter.

Mr. Connolly

I shall look into it, but I do not promise to do anything about it, because I am satisfied that that is what I should find.

Mr. Morrissey

Is not that undesirable?

Mr. Connolly

I agree that it is undesirable if these men are skilled sawyers. From the little I saw of their work, I should say that, while it was good of its class, it was merely cross-cutting. The Deputy knows what I mean by that.

Mr. Morrissey

I know a lot more than the Minister thinks.

Mr. Connolly

Probably more than the Minister.

Mr. Morrissey

I do not know about that.

Mr. Connolly

Deputy Flynn dealt with Kerry and with the acquisition of land. The problem of the suitability or non-suitability of land was one of the big worries we had. I am not so much worried about it now, but I would like to see a big reserve pool of forestry land in our hands, so that we would be able to make preparations and to give as much employment as possible. It is a technical question. One of the reasons why we are trying to break with the old tradition—if it was a tradition—existing in the Department was that the Executive Council decided to ask the Civil Service Commission to throw this thing open to the world, to see if we could get a new view on it. The tradition here certainly was very much what I call the demesne land type. In Kerry we have Muckross going since 1933, where there are 1,290 acres approximately. Last year we opened Kenmare, and the work will begin there during the current year. It would be under way this year but for the scarcity of suitable types to plant. I have a note of the matters that Deputy McMenamin referred to. Our programme, as the Deputy stated, was fairly satisfactory in Donegal, but there again we have the difficulties of exposure and other things. On the general question, I have asked the new director to make a special report on the Gaeltacht counties and the western seaboard, taking into consideration exposure, the general topography of the country, the nature of the soil and other things. I do not know whether we will be able to get a final decision on that. I hope we will. As I said last year, the planting of trees is a risky business unless you have a reasonable assurance that they are going to grow. If there is a sporting chance that there will be relatively good results, then we will take it. If I feel, on the other hand, that expert opinion is against the possibility of growing trees, then we will not take any chances. I think I have covered reasonably well most of the points that were raised. Another question was raised by Deputy Dillon about the letting of lands, and the maintenance of a stock of game, so that these places could be let in the form of shooting lodges. We are anxious about that to some extent. We have a great many shooting demesnes in the Forestry Department, but we are not always able to get people to take them. The question whether we should stock them with grouse or partridge is one that I am not competent to deal with. It is a new question as far as I am concerned, but I will have it noted and inquired into.

Vote put and agreed to.