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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 19 Jun 1936

Vol. 62 No. 19

Committee on Finance. - Vote 33—Gárda Siochána.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,212,129 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Uimh. 7 de 1925).

That a sum not exceeding £1,212,129 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the salaries and expenses of the Gárda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925).

Is it not the intention of the Minister to say anything in regard to this Vote?

Mr. Boland

It was not my intention to do so. I have a statement here dealing with the working of the Gárda for the year, but as the matter of the Gárda was discussed pretty well on the Vote for the Minister's office, I did not propose to read the statement. I shall do so if the Deputy likes, but it has not been the practice in the past and I am only following the usual practice.

In accordance with the usual practice, particularly when there is a motion to refer back the Vote, the question of policy is discussed on the Vote for the Office of the Minister. Deputies usually raise questions on the individual items of the other estimates covered by that Department.

Mr. Boland

Of course, Sir, I am quite prepared to read a statement giving details of the work, if necessary, and if the House wishes me to do so.

There is one matter that I should like the Minister to deal with in connection with this Vote. It is a matter in which hundreds, if not thousands, of young men throughout the country are interested. I want a clear statement from the Minister as to the position regarding recruiting for the Gárda Síochána: whether it is closed absolutely, whether it is open, or whether only men with special qualifications for the Gárda are considered or are being admitted? There are, as I say, hundreds, if not thousands, of young men throughout the country interested in this matter, and great numbers of them were called up some few years ago and were examined with a view to their suitability for the force, and their names were put on the list. Many of them have now gone beyond the age limit fixed for admission to the Gárda, and I take it that, notwithstanding the fact that they passed the examination and were found to be suitable, the fact that they have now gone beyond the maximum age, as a result of not being called up, will debar them from being called to the force. I think, and I am sure most Deputies in the House will agree with me, that it would be very desirable to have a clear statement from the Minister as to the position, because many of us, I think, if not all of us, get many requests regarding admission to the Gárda.

Now, there is another matter that, I think, more properly arises on this Vote, and on which I should like a clear statement, because whatever the facts may be there is a feeling through the country amongst great numbers of people that certain members of the force have been victimised because they took certain action to enforce the law, or because they did not take action which, in the opinion of certain of their superiors, they should have taken. Perhaps that is not the correct way to put it—perhaps it would be better to say that they were victimised because they were not taking aggressive action, rather than the ordinary necessary police action in certain directions. As I say, I should like to have a clear statement from the Minister on that, because certain cases have been brought to my notice that were, to say the least of it, very suspicious; where certain members of the force were removed or transferred to the most backward stations in the country in a particular set of circumstances that, as I say, were suspicious, to say the least of it. Of course, we know that transfers will take place and must take place from time to time, and we know that the most backward parts of the country require to be policed and must be policed, just as much as the most central parts of the country. However, I bring this matter up here because, as I say, there is that feeling down through the country, and I even think there is that feeling in the force itself, and it is a feeling that should not be there. I think the Minister will agree that, if that feeling exists, it ought to be removed, and removed as quickly as possible.

These are the only two points I wish to raise on this Vote. I sincerely hope that the Minister will deal with them and make it perfectly clear to every member of the force in this country that if he does his duty as he is supposed to do he need have no fear of being victimised in any way.

It always affords me pleasure to say a word on this Vote in praise of the Gárda Síochána as a a whole, and it was, I think, the view of all sides in this House up to very recently that the Gárda Síochána as a police force compared very favourably with police forces in every country in the world. This House should be jealous to preserve that situation and to permit nothing to occur which would justify adverse criticism. But we have got to realise one fact, that about three years ago there was a general drive for recruits under the patronage of the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence, Deputy Oscar Traynor, and there is no doubt whatever that in the course of the mass recruiting that went on a number of very bad hats got into the Guards, some of whom have been since disposed of under the glaring light of publicity. While public confidence was substantially restored in the Gárda Síochána as a whole by these cases, still damage was done to the prestige and the reputation of the force by the number of persons of that character who had been allowed to wear its uniform or to appear in public as plain-clothes members of the force. I want to know if the Minister is satisfied in his mind that all the rubbish that got into the Gárda Síochána at that time has been now effectively put out.

Mr. Boland

I think the Deputy would be well advised to moderate his remarks.

I have not said anything yet.

Mr. Boland

You did.

Some persons got in, when Deputy Oscar Traynor and other gentlemen on behalf of the Minister for Justice had to choose applicants for admission to the force, but afterwards the Government took steps to remove certain individuals.

That was not confined to the last three years.

There is no need to lose our tempers. We can discuss this matter dispassionately.

Mr. Boland

If I may intervene, I do not think it would be possible to discuss this Vote dispassionately, if Deputy Dillon will insist on calling members of the Gárda Síochána "rubbish." It will be very difficult for me to do so. I think the Deputy could just as effectively say what he wants to say without using words of that kind.

Does the Acting Minister for Justice resent the application of terms of the strongest reprobation towards individuals who were guilty of crimes while belonging to the Gárda Síochána?

Mr. Boland

I definitely object to the use of that word in respect to human beings.

That is a matter of taste between the Minister and myself. I fail to find any term too strong to describe the conduct of persons who were attracted to the Gárda Síochána, and who were then guilty of assaults with intent to do grievous bodily harm, and indeed assaults with intent to murder, while wearing the uniform of the Guards. The Minister knows as well as I do, that at least one member of the force recruited under his auspices had to be dealt with in court on a charge of the utmost possible gravity, and was very properly and promptly dismissed from the force; that other members to whom were delegated special duties used language in public of a grossly disrespectful character, and even of a grossly offensive character to the ears of anyone, and that these persons were dismissed with ignominy from the force. I want an assurance now that the Minister for Justice has disposed of all such elements, for the introduction of which into the Gárda Síochána he was responsible. There are many occasions on which it is the duty of the Opposition to exercise forbearance, and deliberately to avoid raising certain issues if they are satisfied that the Government are dealing with them, or that would be embarrassing if pushed too rapidly along the road of reform. I do not expect the Government to admit that they have received from the Opposition considerable forbearance in matters of this kind or that the Opposition has not gone out of its way to upbraid it in the past while dealing with evils for which the Government itself was responsible, but I think a time does come when the Opposition is entitled to ask the Minister for Justice: can you now report to this House that every undesirable character whom you introduced into the force has been got out of it?

And the undesirable characters that were in it before.

Yes. If any undesirable person was in the Gárda Síochána when the present Government took office, I want an assurance that that undesirable person has been got rid of. I want the further assurance that if some narrow-minded and corrupt supporter, either while a member of this House or of a Fianna Fáil Cumann, has pursued a member of the Garda Siochána with slander or lies, the Minister for Justice will now take his courage in his hands and denounce the slanderer and vindicate the Guard. I think that time has come. There are Deputies sitting not one hundred miles away from where Deputy Brady is sitting who did their best to drive out of the ranks of the Gárda Síochána good officers who were doing their duty and I think in the early stages of the Fianna Fáil Government there was an inclination to succumb to conduct of that kind.

Name the Deputy.

We had members of the Gárda Síochána shifted all over the country. That has stopped. Why? The Minister for Justice has come to realise that the slanderers and those who libelled officers of the Gárda Síochána were doing it out of malice, and that 90 per cent. of the complaints had no substance, beyond a desire to vent private spite against particular officers. That evil, I am happy to say, is virtually ended, and, as far as it is ended, I pay a tribute to the Minister for Justice, who I recognise had to deal with a difficult situation and to meet pressure brought to bear upon him by political supporters down the country. He is now, I believe, facing that kind of pressure, and insisting that every allegation made against a member of the Gárda Síochána shall be signed and proved by the person who makes it, before he moves to punish a Guard against whom an allegation is brought. That is happily something which belongs to the past and it would be better for all if Deputy Brady did not choose to dig it up.

The other matter is one that does not belong to the remote past. Of the new Guards who were introduced, some have proved worthy of the position to which they were appointed, and have become loyal members of the Guards as well as reflecting credit on the force. I want, however, to get, as I am entitled to get, an assurance that the remaining candidates have been thoroughly tested, the wheat from the chaff or rubbish, whichever way the Minister wishes to describe it.

Mr. Boland

I have neither.

The Deputy does not approve of either wheat or chaff.

Deputy Kehoe has spent most of his time looking up at the strangers in the gallery and he might spend the remaining time gazing up there. I want to say something about the Irish-speaking Guards. I recognise that one of the most valuable contributions to the language movement is that being made by the Irish-speaking Guards, because that contribution is largely made in the Gaeltacht. We are, in so far as we are stationing Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht, making it possible for the people there to do their daily business in the vernacular, and we are making a contribution to the maintenance of the living language in these parts where it is alive. I do not want to compare that very constructive and useful work with the fatuities of the Minister for Education for it might lead me beyond the bounds of relevance—

Mr. Boland

A most unusual thing.

But I want to make this suggestion to the Minister that he, being a Dublin man himself, will recognise readily that for a young and active member of the Gárda to be taken away from the larger centres of population, and stationed in the more remote stations which are ordinarily in the Gaeltacht may be a very material penalty. In summer, it has its compensation, but, in winter, it must be almost unmitigated gloom for somebody who is not accustomed to the living conditions of the Gaeltacht areas. Is he satisfied that there are monetary inducements adequate to counter-balance the amenity disadvantages which are inflicted on those members of the Gárda Síochána required to do Irish-speaking duty in the Gaeltacht? I do not believe in coddling anybody, but when I want a job done I want to do it in such a way that it will succeed, and if the vast majority of the Gárda, who are sent to the Gaeltacht because they are Irish speaking, feel that it is an imposition upon them, and that, in fact, to be Irish speaking brings upon them material disadvantages, I am afraid we cannot expect the spirit in that section of the force that we want if the work is to be properly done.

We are all agreed that the Gárda Síochana barracks should be comfortable and healthy, no matter where they are situated. I want to make a suggestion that if we take from the Gárda the pleasant social surroundings of the suburbs of the city, or a large country town, and transfer him to the Gaeltacht, we should try to do something to make the Gárda barrack to which he is transferred a little more cheerful than it otherwise would be, and I want to do that, not because I want to weaken the proper and desirable discipline and rigour that ought to be found in the barrack of a uniformed force. Therefore, some of the suggestions I make will at first sound a little incongruous, but when we think back to the prime motive we have in mind the incongruity will disappear. I should like to see these places equipped, perhaps, with wireless, and I should like to see the Commissioner examining the question as to whether special library facilities might not be made available by the county library, acting in co-operation with the Carnegie Trust. I should like the Chief Commissioner to examine every device which would make the Gárda barrack in the Gaeltacht area a happier place for the Gárda to live in and, not only that, but to develop into a place where the young fellows of the district would be encouraged to congregate and spend the evening.

Now, I fully recognise that that second suggestion would be extremely difficult to reconcile with the proper discipline of a Gárda barrack, but I think we might try to develop the barrack into something a little more than a police station and to bring home to the minds of the people in the Gaeltacht, as I think we ought to do to the minds of the people all over the country, that the Gárda, in addition to being the vindicators of the law and defenders of order, are also the friends of the people, and that they are there to help and advise, and to give any assistance they can within reason. One of the great difficulties in every country area is to occupy the young people in the evenings. My experience of the Gárda Síochána is that they are respectable, clean-minded, decent young men, and if you could get the young fellows of the district—I say nothing of the girls at this juncture—who would otherwise be rambling the roads, or perhaps gathering in public-houses, gathering around the Gárda barrack, they would be assured of decent company and you could be satisfied that decent conduct would be enforced, not by superiors or people standing in loco parentis, but by the comrades they have themselves chosen.

If you want decent standards enforced amongst young people, you have to realise that you cannot be chasing round after them all the time, and telling them they cannot do this and they cannot do that. What you have to do is to get their own comrades and the people of their own age setting a standard of conduct and remonstrating with them if conduct of an undesirable kind is developing. In the Gárda Síochána, I think, we have that type of person, and I should like to gather the young people around them so that the good influence would permeate the ideas of these young people. In addition, it would have this great advantage, that where you have a body of young Gárda setting a high standard of conduct in a Gaeltacht parish, they would also set a strict standard, being members of an Irish-speaking division in that they would use the Irish language as their vernacular at all times. You would have that poisonous element, which is doing more to kill the language than anything else, the desire to speak English in order to appear grand in the Gaeltacht, effectively rebutted by that group of fellows, who stand highest in the public esteem of their neighbours, scorning to speak English and preferring to use Irish as their vernacular in the Gaeltacht and encouraging the young fellows associated with them to recognise that it was something somewhat contemptible, when you had the language and when all your friends and associates spoke it freely, deliberately to turn your back on it and speak an English patois, when you had at your command an Irish of Shakespearian purity, if one might use that term. I feel that valuable work for the language can be done, and, at the same time, substantial justice to the members of the Gárda can be done. Last, but not least, a useful social service can be provided in the rural areas which will do a great deal to solve the problem of profitably occupying the leisure hours of the young people in those parts of rural Ireland to which I refer.

Now, I want to say a word about the experts who have been produced by the police. I strongly urge on the Minister for Justice that this is not a matter about which we need get cross, and that if it has appeared that something has emerged in the course of the debate which would justify indignation, in so far as it has so seemed to the Minister, it has been a misunderstanding.

Mr. Boland

Might I ask the Deputy if, when he says that, he is speaking for Deputy McGilligan as well as himself?

To the best of my knowledge and belief, I am.

Mr. Boland

That is very qualified.

Perhaps, when the Minister hears me he will find, in something that I say, cause for grave offence. If he does, I want him to examine it calmly and let us dispose of it between ourselves, because the experts whose services are availed of by the Attorney-General are not a matter for the Fine Gael Party or the Fianna Fáil Party. They are a matter for the State as a whole. I have read a careful and copious note that has been taken of Deputy McGilligan's speech. The Official Reports are not yet available and so I have been obliged to rely on an exhaustive note. From that, it appears abundantly clear that Deputy McGilligan said what this Party actually desire, and that was, that, so far as the pathological and medical evidence produced on behalf of the State is concerned, it leaves nothing to be desired.

Mr. Boland

I think it is scarcely fair to start this all over again. We had it exhaustively dealt with on the Minister's Vote, and it is really too bad that Deputy Dillon, who did not see fit to come in here, when the matter was under discussion, should reopen the whole thing again. I have been for a long period one of the Whips of the Government, and, in that capacity, my job was to save Parliamentary time. I have that in my bones now and I am disgusted if Deputy Dillon is to be allowed to reopen a matter that was thrashed out very fully on the Minister's Vote. It is really painful. It is a waste of time.

The Minister is losing his temper.

Mr. Boland

I am not. I am merely stating that the Deputy is wasting time by raising this matter again. I put it to you, Sir, that you should not allow it seeing that it has already been dealt with exhaustively on the other Vote.

The general question of evidence submitted by men who are called experts cannot be reopened, but the question of expert evidence, with particular reference to the Gárda Síochána, might be discussed.

Are these experts members of the Gárda?

Mr. Boland

Some of them.

Nobody knows what I am going to say.

Mr. Boland

I have appealed to you, Sir, and now I shall make my appeal to Deputy Dillon, that the practice in the past certainly has been to discuss these questions on the Vote for the Minister's Office. I ask him now, in view of the fact that this matter has been discussed on the Vote for the Minister's Office—although I have nothing to hide in the matter—not to prolong the proceedings by going over the same ground, although the Chair might allow it.

The Chair has not allowed, or does not intend to allow, a discussion of all the matters with regard to expert evidence that have been discussed before. What I did say had particular reference to expert evidence submitted by the Minister from the Gárda. I said that that probably would be relevant to this discussion. I do not know what Deputy Dillon is going to say but the matter was put to me and I had to make a ruling.

I now propose to say what I had intended to say and if I had been allowed to say it at first the matter would have been all over by now.

Mr. Boland

Indeed it would not.

I referred, Sir, in passing to the evidence of the pathological expert who is not a member of the Gárda and I have said that to both sides of the House his evidence is highly satisfactory and above criticism I pass from that. I pass to the case of one particular witness, a witness who was produced from the ranks of the Gárda Síochána on the question of ballistics. We have made our position clear, Sir, that we regard the ordinary expert who has been produced by the State for several years —Commandant Stapleton—to give evidence on ballistics, as a person who has given abundant proof in the courts of being a highly skilled and experienced man. We do not contend that any expert can be infallible. We do not set a standard of infallibility as being an essential desideratum for an expert witness, but we do say that when the State undertakes to produce evidence in that regard, the State has a heavy obligation to be peculiarly scrupulous because if the Gárda Síochána, or the Attorney-General, puts a person in the box as an expert witness. Although attempts may be made to discredit his skill by cross-examination, the fact that the Gárda stand over him in itself carries heavy weight with a jury or whatever tribunal he appears before.

The Attorney-General

If this is the line to be pursued by the Deputy, I submit it is not relevant to this Vote. It may be relevant to the Vote for Law Charges. If charges are made as to the way in which the prosecution produces witnesses——

I am not questioning that.

The Attorney-General

I am quite prepared to deal with the case which has been discussed here so often, a case which occurred three years ago, but if I do so some people will be very sorry.

The Attorney-General is now losing his temper. I am not dealing with any case.

The Attorney-General

I do think that it is a matter for complaint that Deputy McGilligan was allowed to open his speech the other night by referring casually, as he pretended to, to a case which is three years old. If we are to have references to that case there must be a full discussion of the circumstances. Everything said now is confined to that particular case which is three years old.

I have no interest whatever in any case.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy is referring to a case which is three years old.

I cannot refer to something I know nothing about.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy often does that.

The Attorney-General

Might I ask the Deputy does he not know that the references to a ballistic expert who gave evidence on one occasion, and who was said to have had only six months' experience, point to a particular case which was heard at least two years ago, in fact, I think three years ago? Does he not know that?

No. The Minister can rebut my case by saying: "Having heard Deputy Dillon, I want to inform him that he is labouring under a complete misapprehension, and anybody who shares his view can rest assured that the whole thing is a mistake." My suggestion is that a ballistic expert has been called by the State on more than one occasion——

The Attorney-General

On one occasion. So far, I have heard of only one occasion.

The Minister can tell us that there is no cause for anxiety or misgiving——

Does the Deputy suggest that this ballistic expert is a member of the Gárda and has been submitted as such, as an expert witness, by the Minister for Justice?

Mr. Boland

Not by the Minister for Justice. It is not the Minister for Justice, but the prosecuting counsel who produces the witnesses. Surely Deputy Dillon, who is a barrister, ought to know that.

My suggestion is that he is a member of the Gárda Síochána and that the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána has a certain responsibility to the Minister for Justice for actions of members of the force. If members of the force do something which is imprudent, the proper and only place to raise that question is here in this House by asking the responsible Minister for the Gárda whether he will take steps to see——

The Attorney-General

Might I point out that the responsibility for putting forward witnesses is on me, on my Department? If Deputy Dillon wishes to have that matter discussed, I am quite prepared to discuss it under the Vote for Law Charges, but I think that I should have an opportunity of getting particulars if there is a suggestion that we have produced witnesses who are not properly describable as experts, if the Deputy will discuss it in that way.

I do not know whether this expert has been submitted by the Department, or has submitted himself as an expert in ballistics. I do not know whether the Department has any responsibility in submitting this man as a ballistic expert, or whether the responsibility lies with the Attorney-General in discovering a ballistic expert.

Mr. Boland

You may take it from me that the Minister for Justice has nothing to do with the production of witnesses; that is a matter for the prosecuting counsel, and not the Minister. I have tried to impress that on Deputy Dillon, but when we were dealing with the matter before, I gave a full account of the qualifications of this officer. In a recent case he was highly complimented by the trial judge. Notwithstanding that fact, Deputy Dillon persists in raising this matter, although it has been already raised and dealt with in the Vote for the Minister's Department.

If the Minister for Justice says he is not responsible for the submission of the particular expert's evidence I cannot allow the Deputy to persist in discussing it now. There is a Vote on which the nature of the evidence submitted can be raised.

I would much sooner get the evidence discussed and it could be disposed of in five minutes. But, if the Minister makes a point of that character I must get at the matter in a roundabout way in order to show that I am in order. My respectful submission, therefore, to the Chair is that where the conduct of any person, whether a uniformed member of the Garda or not, is called in question, the proper means of raising that is to raise it here and to ask the Minister for Justice how he defends the attempt of that person who is a member of the Gárda and whose weekly pay is charged upon this Vote? I know of no other way in which it can be raised, and I now propose to raise the matter in the case of this particular member of the Gárda and I depend upon the protection of the Chair from interruptions by the Acting-Minister for Justice or the Attorney-General.

I presume it is within the competence of the Attorney-General to procure evidence from the Gárda if he thinks that expert evidence should be given through the Gárda—I presume the Attorney-General can procure that evidence. The responsibility for the production of that particular evidence would rest with the Attorney-General.

I do not desire to comment upon the evidence but upon the competence of the particular Gárda.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy is dealing with his conduct as well as his qualifications.

The Attorney-General is responsible for submitting evidence and is responsible for the type of evidence submitted. Therefore, the responsibility for that particular action would lie on the Attorney-General.

I will drop that particular case altogether. I take it the Minister is aware of the kind of instruction the Guards receive in ballistics. Is there a school of ballistics? If there is, how many members of the Gárda are in the school of ballistics? At the conclusion of six months instruction in the school of ballistics would a member of the Gárda be qualified to appear in public and set up to be able to give expert evidence on the subject of ballistics? Does the Minister, in his view, think that a student of the school of ballistics for which he is responsible is competent to give evidence on ballistics after six months' training? Will the Minister call that particular member and the head of the school of ballistics before him and question them as to the propriety of a person with six months' training in the school of ballistics holding himself out as an expert on ballistic questions? Will he do that and direct their attention to the fact and ask their comments on the statement made by a recognised authority on ballistics in this country that no one who has not from five to six years' experience in ballistics——

Did the Minister submit this man as an expert on ballistics, or did the Attorney-General summon him in the ordinary way to give evidence?

I have not the faintest notion.

If he did not he is not responsible.

I want to ask what standard of efficiency has to be reached by a Gárda in the school of ballistics, before he can be certified with the sigilla of that school? The reputation of the Gárda Síochána is very high. If he were to send a member of the Gárda to Chili or Peru and say that this man has completed a course in ballistics and is a man fit to give evidence on the subject, any court would listen to him with respect, but you cannot turn out an expert after six months' training. An admitted expert in ballistics has stated that you cannot turn out in less than five or six years an expert on ballistics.

In these circumstances someone asks me to ask the Minister for Justice a question upon the matter and I reply "Certainly I will ask him, but then someone else comes along and says you should not ask the Minister for Justice, you should ask the question on the Estimate for the Gárda Síochána.

The Attorney-General

Is the Deputy now trying to get in this hypothetical question or is he referring to a case made by Deputy McGilligan which occurred two or three years ago?

Mr. Boland

And in respect of which a full statement was made on a previous Vote. Deputy Dillon did not find it convenient to be here on that occasion. He comes here now and asks the House to listen to a long rigmarole about a thing he knows nothing about. Let the Deputy read what I said upon this question when the Official Report is printed, and I am quite sure he will be satisfied that there is a full explanation there.

I have read every syllable spoken by the Minister in introducing his Estimate. The Minister must not think he can shout me down.

On a point of order —I regret to interrupt Deputy Dillon— if it is a fact that the evidence Deputy Dillon is criticising was given in a case two years ago I would suggest that the discussion should not be continued now. I have been listening to this discussion for 25 minutes to-day and in all for at least a half-an-hour before and I think the time of the House is now being quite unreasonably wasted.

Is this a point of order?

It is clearly a point of order. Deputy Dillon is trying to evade the ruling of the Chair by working in a general statement of what was previously ruled out in a particular way. If he is endeavouring to find out whether there is a school of ballistics I do not propose to rule him out on that but when he proceeds to bring that down to the particular instance in which the Attorney-General is responsible for submitting that particular evidence as expert evidence I cannot allow him to do so.

I am not interested in the Attorney-General directly or indirectly. I repeat the question to the Minister for Justice. I believe there is a school of ballistics and I desire to know upon what terms students are admitted. I demand to know the requirements demanded by the head of the school from students before they receive his certificate that they are experts qualified to give evidence in a court of law. I suggest that the course in the school of ballistics ought not to be less than five or six years and that the stipulation should be that a considerable portion of that course should be devoted to practical work and not strictly confined to the theoretical study of other people's experiments. I want to make it quite clear that I consider it to be the duty of the Chief Commissioner of the Civic Guards to refuse to allow any member of the Gárda Siochána to appear in any court of law at the request of anybody.

The Attorney-General

He cannot refuse.

In the capacity of an expert.

The Attorney-General

It is a matter for him to judge whether the man is an expert or not.

Or in a capacity which the Chief Commissioner believes him to be unqualified to fill. The Attorney-General may intervene to say that he is free to call anyone he likes. The Attorney-General may be free to describe the individual whom he calls in any way he likes. I believe the duty of the State is to see that substantial justice is done to the person in the dock. If the Chief Commissioner is of opinion that the Attorney-General or anybody else has called from the depot a man who, he knows, from his knowledge of the school of ballistics or any other department, is incompetent for the purpose for which he is called, my respectful submission is that it is the duty of the Minister for Justice and the Chief Commissioner to communicate promptly with the defence and tell them that the person the Attorney-General has called out of the uniformed force is not a competent person and that cross-examination of him should be conducted along certain lines in order to avoid the deception of the court by the evidence put forward.

The Attorney-General

I submit that it is a grave breach of the privileges of the House for the Deputy, in the first place, to evade the ruling of the Chair and, then, by a series of hypotheses, make a statement which he refuses to particularise and which, I submit, is a misrepresentation of what occurred in a case two years ago. I suggest that the Deputy is wasting the time of the House and that he is guilty of a gross breach of the privileges of a member of the House.

Mr. Boland

Outstandingly so.

If Deputy MacDermot, the Minister for Justice and the Attorney-General are now finished——

The Attorney-General

I have offered to discuss on my Vote all the matters to which the Deputy is now referring.

Neither the trio I have mentioned nor any other trio is going to stop me from saying what I believe I have a right to say.

Mr. Boland

I see that and I shall not attempt to do so. If we dammed that brook, something would burst.

At least, I have stopped the Minister for Justice. I hope I shall be equally successful with the Attorney-General and Deputy MacDermott.

The Attorney-General

You have yet to deal with the Chair.

I make that case and I submit it is a case which the Minister for Justice ought to answer. He has not answered it heretofore and it is of much wider application than the Attorney-General by his interjections would suggest.

The Attorney-General

I offered to deal with the question of expert evidence on my Vote and the Deputy could then roam as widely as he pleased on that question.

I submit that this is a matter for the Minister for Justice. Having made clear our views on the question of expert evidence, I want to address the attention of the Minister to a matter in regard to the Civic Guard barracks in the Gaeltacht. I outlined a general scheme whereunder they might be made centres for young people to gather around in given circumstances. May I suggest an added and valuable amenity with a view to promoting the other purposes to which I referred. I suggest that a ball alley should be built as part of the Gárda Síochána premises in the Gaeltacht districts where Irish-speaking Guards are stationed. Along those lines, I think, valuable work could be done from the point of view of the language, from the point of view of the district and from the point of view of the force itself. As there seems to be a great deal of money knocking about now for public works of one kind or another, I think some of it might be very profitably used for the purpose of improving the amenities available at Gárda barracks in the Gaeltacht. In addition to doing useful work, the wage content of the project to be carried out would be very high and would make a contribution to the social problems of the areas concerned.

I should not have intervened in this debate were it not that Deputy Dillon said that certain Deputies sitting very close to Deputy Brian Brady were trying to victimise some members of the Gárda. I take it that he was referring to myself when he went so far as to say that some of these Guards were sent from the midlands into the Gaeltacht.

There was no connection between these two statements.

I take it that the Deputy was referring to a certain incident which happened in Longford town. He talked about rubbish in the Guards. I stand here for the elimination of undesirables, if there are any there. What happened on the occasion to which I have referred? We had six signed statements by witnesses and by the persons aggrieved. I read some of these in this House. I shall only refer to one of them now and that from memory. This statement set out that in Longford on that particular evening a public meeting was held between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock. At 10 o'clock that night, a certain superintendent of the Guards came out of a hotel, walked down to where four people were standing, raised his stick and struck one of them in the chest, telling them to "get out of that." Two of them wheeled to the right and two of them wheeled to the left.

The superintendent, according to my information, pursued two of the men down the main street and 40 yards down raised his stick and gave one man three unmerciful strokes. He was knocked down and had to be carried to a neighbouring house and attended by priest and doctor. It was not for some hours afterwards that he could be removed home. That account is either true or not true. I asked the Minister for Justice in this House for a public, sworn inquiry. The reply I got was that disciplinary measures were being taken. The people of my county are not satisfied with the position. This superintendent is either guilty or not guilty. If he is not guilty, I shall be the first to go to him and apologise. I should be very sorry if any wrong were done him. If he is guilty, I maintain that he is not worthy of retention in the force. If that is the kind of rubbish referred to by Deputy Dillon, I am with him but, if it is not, I am against him.

Deputy Dillon suggested that Gárda stations should be made celidih houses for the districts in which they are situate. That is the very thing to which I object. That was the position during the Cumann na nGaedheal days and it was even worse after hours. That has been eliminated and I hope that we will not see it revived. We do not want to see the barracks converted into club houses or places for secret societies. I believe the people, as a whole, are entitled to have confidence in the Guards and, for that reason, I do not want to see these club houses started again. I know the Guards cannot please everybody. So far as I can observe there is, at the moment, a genuine effort by the Guards to carry out their police duties. No matter how the work is done, it will not please everybody. I think, however, that grave injustice is done by people of the mentality of Deputy Dillon who let it go broadcast that there is rubbish in the Guards. He went so far as to say that the rubbish got in lately. If there is rubbish in the Guards from the time of the previous Government or during our time, I shall be glad to see it eliminated. I want to see the Guards a force to which all the people can look with confidence and with respect.

The Minister said he had a statement ready. I think that he ought to read that statement to the House. It is most unusual procedure to have an Estimate introduced here and to have the statement which was prepared put into cold storage for 12 months. This is a very important Vote. The cost has gone up over £250,000.

Mr. Boland

I offered to read the statement and I am prepared to do so now. There was, I think, consent that I should not read the statement. If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle permits me, I shall read the statement now.

The Minister can intervene in the debate if he wishes.

Mr. Boland

I understood that there was general agreement that I might not read the statement.

If the Minister intervenes now, he can read the statement.

Mr. Boland

If Deputy Cosgrave wants to have it read and if the Chair permits me, I shall read it.

The Minister is quite entitled to intervene in the debate if he so wishes.

Mr. Boland

I do not know whether I should read the statement about the special training which I read yesterday in order to please Deputy Dillon. I think that would rather be going too far but if it would stop him from going after the same thing again on another Vote I will do it.

Gárda Síochána Vote, 1936-37.

This Estimate shows a decrease of £14,349 below the amount provided for this Service for last year. The gross total of the expenditure subheads is £4,734 less than the total for the previous year while the estimated amount of the Appropriations-in-Aid of the Vote shows an increase of £9,615.

Sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Pay: This sub-head shows a decrease of £17,534. The explanation for this decrease lies in the fact that last year it was necessary to make provision for 53 weeks' pay for Sergeants and Guards stationed outside the Dublin Metropolitan area as 53 weekly "pay-days" for these men fell within the financial year. This year it is necessary to provide for only 52 weeks.

Recruiting was suspended during last year with the result that on the 31st March, 1936, the total strength of the force had fallen to 7,364— i.e., 147 below the total number provided. It is hoped that, with a continuance of the improved conditions throughout the country, it will not be found necessary to reopen recruiting this year in which event a more substantial saving will be effected on this sub-head than that provided for.

Sub-head B—Allowances: This sub-head shows an increase of £10,298 of which £5,665 is attri- butable to rent allowance and £3,565 to Gaeltacht allowance.

The increase in the amount of rent allowance is a consequence of the gradual increase in the number of married men to whom the allowance is payable. During the year 1935, 306 sergeants and Guards were married and the actual expenditure under this heading during the last financial year exceeded the amount provided by about £2,000. At present about 80 per cent. of the sergeants and 59 per cent. of the Guards are married.

The Gaeltacht allowance is at the rate of 7½ per cent. of the member's pay and is paid to members stationed in certain districts where Irish is used by the Gárda as the normal medium of official conversation and correspondence. The Gárda Gaeltacht districts scheme was first adopted in the West Galway division in the summer of 1934. Last October it was brought into operation in three districts in County Donegal and two in County Kerry. The increase in the amount of the allowance provided for is due to this extension of the scheme. The total number of members serving in the districts referred to is 373.

Sub-head C—Subsistence Allowance: The increase under this sub-head is due to the inclusion of provision to meet anticipated expenditure in connection with a series of instructional courses on technical police subjects which it is intended to hold at headquarters during the year.

I gave a detailed account of this on the Minister's Vote.

Sub-head D—Locomotion Expenses: The increase of £1,000 in the provision to meet transfer expenses is due not to any anticipated increase in the number of transfers, but to the fact that there has been a gradual increase in the number of married members, and the expenses of transfer of married members are, of course, considerably higher than those of single members. The number of permanent transfers effected last year was substantially less than during the previous year, and it is hoped that a further reduction in these numbers will be possible during the current year.

Sub-head E—Clothing and Equipment: The provision necessary under this sub-head varies considerably from year to year as the quantities of various articles which are due for issue, in accordance with the authorised scales, vary substantially each year. (Each article of uniform issued to members has a prescribed period of wear). The other sub-heads of the Vote call for no special observations.

The increase in the amount of the Appropriations-in-Aid is due to the inclusion of an anticipated receipt of £9,500 from the Road Fund under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1933. This amount has been determined by the Minister for Finance in accordance with the provisions of Section 10 of that Act.

There are two or three features of this Estimate which stand out prominently in contrast with the Estimates of the previous year. I think I made out exactly the difference between this Estimate and that of five years ago. The last time that I did make that calculation I found that the Minister is spending £250,000 more on the Gárda Síochána than was spent five years ago. For some years previous to 1931-32 very many criticisms had been passed by the then Opposition, the present Government, about the extravagance in connection with the Gárda Síochána. We were told about the enormous expenditure there then was on the Gárda and we were told how that could be reduced and would be reduced as soon as the Fianna Fáil Party come into power. But their conduct in connection with this Vote is on a par with their conduct in connection with every other Department of Government. There has been extravagance, greatly increased expenditure, less results, less efficiency, and there has been very much less public confidence in the service.

One is struck by the difference between this Vote and the Vote for last year. The net total is lower than that of last year by £14,349. We have the fact that there were fifty-three weeks budgeted for in last year's Estimate as against fifty-two weeks in this year's Estimate—if I have correctly taken the Minister's statement. In addition there has been brought in to this Vote a sum of £9,500 from the Road Fund this year. If there is one thing more than another on which this Ministry has declared war, it is on the Road Fund. On the very first year of its existence, the Government reduced the tax upon buses thus reducing by £23,000 the amount going into the Road Fund and knocking off 230 men from permanent occupation on the roads for the whole year. Now again, in order to show a reduction on this Vote, 100 men are going this year to be taken off employment on the roads. In addition in the Finance Bill other concessions are to be made in respect of the construction of lorries also resulting in an attack on the Road Fund.

While we are led to believe by the pronouncement made by the Ministers and the Members of the Party opposite, that they are the poor man's friend, the poor man's Government. I know of no Government, not even the British Government who have made such devastating war upon the people's employment as this Government have made. The taking of £9,500 from the Road Fund is a glaring example of their want of consideration for the men who are employed on the roads. And this is done at a time when anyone who has any experience of the roads of the country knows quite well that that service will not bear that reduction. I would be glad if the Minister would give us what are his own definite instructions to the Gárda Síochána in connection with what it called third-degree methods. Perhaps it would be better if the Minister would give me his attention on this matter.

Mr. Boland

I should like to remind the Deputy that, when he was in office, he occasionally consulted officials, too, and he might not have made that remark.

This is too important a matter to warrant any diverting of attention. I was asking the Minister an important question which the Minister ought to have as much interest in as I have.

Mr. Boland

And has.

Very good. The real question at issue in this case and in all these cases is: is this a State institution or is it a mere appanage of the Party in power? I do not subscribe to the idea that it should be the appanage of the Party in power. It is a State institution and should be regarded as such. It should have the respect and confidence, and ought to command the respect and confidence, of every section of the community. I ask the Minister if any instructions have been issued to the Guards in connection with third-degree methods. Has the Minister set his face against them, and have the higher officers of the Guards been instructed not to allow, under any consideration, third-degree methods to be practised? It is a fair question, and I think the Minister cannot quarrel with it. It gives him an opportunity, at any rate, here in this Parliament of letting it be known to the country what the Ministerial view is.

The other question I should like to direct attention to is this, whether he knows it or not, that public confidence has been shaken in the administration of the Guards during the last few years—very seriously shaken. There is a very widespread conviction throughout the country that the activities of the Guards are restricted by political representations; that prosecutions on the part of the Guards of certain persons can be deflected by political influence. If the Minister is unaware of these rumours, I hope he will take the opportunity of assuring the House that that particular species of activity has not got any support from him. But the Minister cannot be unaware of the fact that there is a widespread conviction throughout the country that that is so. I hope he will take occasion on this Vote to give expression to the Ministerial view on the point.

Quite recently, on the occasion of a rather serious outrage, when one would have expected that the high officers of the Guards would have been in attendance, they were in various parts of the country. One was engaged in an athletic competition of some sort or other. That sort of thing does not tend to public confidence. When and if a crisis of any sort occurs, it is the duty of the responsible officers of the Guards to be in their offices, or to be doing their duty.

At least one hour of Parliamentary time would have been saved to-day if some arrangement had been come to by which we could have considered the two Votes, namely, the Vote for the Department of Justice and the Vote for the Gárda Síochána, at the same time, and we would have obviated all the finicky points of order raised during the speech of Deputy Dillon. I would suggest to the bigger Parties in the House that, in future, they might come to some arrangement by which we could discuss these two Votes together.

When a crime has been committed in any country and the criminals get away unpunished, usually the police force is blamed. That occurs even in our own country. If, at any time, particularly if the crime is of a political character, notwithstanding the efforts of the police, criminals get away with it, the first persons to be blamed are the Gárda Síochána. Nobody takes into consideration the fact that, because of the lack of morale and of a responsible public spirit in our country to-day, these criminals, these murderers and these assassins, have got away with it. The fact that four murders of a political character, and of a most brutal nature, have taken place since this Estimate was last considered, without the culprits being brought to justice, is a very poor commentary indeed on our civilisation, not to talk about our civic spirit. These dreadful occurrences in a Catholic and Christian nation undoubtedly give evidence of a lack of public spirit and a lack of civic spirit and, I regret to say, a lack of the co-ordination and co-operation that we should expect, and have every right to expect, from our people who profess Christianity and Catholicity.

These occurrences are manifestations of a very widespread and well-organised conspiracy in this country which no Government can afford to ignore. Before the present Government took office the country was enjoying a measure of ordered and settled Government. We had a police force second to none in the world who were able by the ordinary methods of law, supplemented by some special legislation, to check crime and to arrest criminals. Honest and law-abiding citizens were beginning to feel a sense of security. In the streets, in the highways, and in the homes there was security for life and limb. The reign of the terrorists was almost at an end —I might say at an end. But when the change of Government took place mark what occurred.

Mr. Boland

I do not like to interrupt, but I think this should have been brought up on the Minister's Vote. With all respect to the Deputy, I think he ought to have referred to this matter on the Minister's Vote and that only matters of detail should be discussed on this Vote. That is the settled practice. I do not think it is the proper procedure to bring up a matter like this on a Vote which has never been used for the purpose.

This is the Vote for the Gárda Síochána and if the Gárda Síochána have nothing to do with crime, are not there to detect crime, I want to know where I am. I want to refer to what happened when a change of Government took place. New heart and life was given to these people whom I mentioned a moment ago. Fianna Fáil and their Labour allies have a very big responsibility for the present condition of affairs in this country. The gesture of the Minister for Defence in opening the prison gates, by the way, was not taken as a gesture of good-will, but was interpreted as an indication of weakness.

Is not that really going very far off? The Minister is responsible for the administration of the Gárda Síochána and what is open for discussion now is the administration of the past 12 months. I allowed Deputy Anthony to make some general remarks hoping that he would have come to the details of administration by now, but he is proceeding in a general way to deal with matters that transpired two or three years ago.

I want to point out the reactions of that policy on the Gárda Síochána. These things have reacted on the Gárda Síochána up to and including the present day.

We cannot go back beyond the present year in the discussion on this Estimate.

And we cannot bring back to life the persons who were murdered and assassinated. Reference was made to-day by Deputy Dillon and other Deputies to the fact that several active and efficient policemen were removed from populous areas to remote districts because of their activity in detecting political crime. In Cork, some of the most effective crime detectors, men who were able to bring criminals to boot in many cases within 24 or 48 hours of the occurrence of a crime, were transferred, immediately this Government took office or a year or two subsequent to its taking office, to remote areas. That is not the way to encourage an efficient police officer or a detective to do his duty. The consequence, at any rate, is that to-day owing to the activities of members of the Fianna Fáil Party, Guards whom they regarded as objectionable have been transferred.

That, I am certain, is not going to have the effect which I am sure the acting Minister would desire on the morale and discipline of the Gárda Síochána. It is a state of affairs that is not conducive to good government in this or any other country.

In this small country the horrible occurrences to which I have referred took place within a couple of weeks of each other, and, notwithstanding the condemnation of them by the heads of the Churches and by various public bodies, the criminals concerned are still at large. I want to say again that the Gárda Síochána were not responsible for not being able to capture these criminals. The people themselves are in a large measure responsible. Unless and until the acting Minister for Justice and the Government create a better public spirit by being quite serious in the matter of apprehending criminals, then the state of affairs that prevails, which is a disgrace to any civilised country, will continue. Having watched the activities of the Gárda Síochána since their establishment, it appears to me that we have now drifted into this position that our Government prefer to placate the armed bully rather than protect the unarmed citizen. Unless the Minister and his Government are prepared to face up to their responsibilities, this country will drift and drift because of the operations of people outside this House—parenthetically I may say that I was very glad to hear the declaration which the acting Minister made the other day when referring to those people—into a state of government by gangsters for gangsters. I would ask the Minister if he has any influence in the Cabinet not to give any encouragement to the advice received from some members of his own Party because of the activities of a Guard in any constituency in apprehending, arresting or questioning members of the Fianna Fáil Party. The Minister should not hearken to advice to remove a Guard, against whom a complaint is made in such circumstances, from his station.

That is a scandal that has occurred in the City of Cork, and I need hardly remind the Minister that even in Dublin Inspector O'Connell was removed because it was thought that he had certain political leanings. I do not know that he had. It was said that he had. These are concrete cases of the details of which the Minister must be aware. The Government were responsible for establishing a new force which came to be known as the flying squad. I have always thought it advisable not to refer to this force as the Broy Harriers, but as a special branch of the Government forces because as a Government force I think it should be respected, and should not have any peculiar appellations or nicknames given to it. I believe that such a thing reflects, in the end, on the country as a whole. But, as I have said, the Government established a special branch of detectives known as the flying squad. Its special work was to help in the collection of the land annuities or to make distraints on the stock and property of farmers who were unable to pay their land annuities. Why should not the Government now establish a specially trained squad—men trained in criminology—whose special work would be to hunt down criminals, murderers and assassins and to suppress societies which have for their aim and object the assassination of their political opponents, societies composed of people whose object is to overthrow this State. Not alone are these people in antagonism to the members of the Opposition here but they are in antagonism to the Minister and his Party. I welcome the statement made by the Minister the other day that he is out to deal with those people outside the House in possession of firearms without the authority of the State. I would again ask the Minister to pay less attention to the representations made to him by some members of his own Party, back benchers particularly, in regard to certain members of the Gárda Síochána. It appears now that unless the Guards, to use a colloquialism, play up to certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party their jobs are no longer secure. If the Minister would make it quite clear that the state of affairs which I have just described is going to be cleared up and cleaned up, he would at least be doing something to make this country a little bit more attractive than it is at the moment, not only for outsiders, but for ourselves.

I do not want to see developing in this country a situation in which people will go in fear of the gangster and the gun, but I am afraid it is fast developing into that, and in my view the Minister and his Party have displayed a certain amount of weakness in dealing with that particular class of crime. If it did not get open encouragement it certainly did not get much condemnation from the members of the Government Party who speak now with their tongues in their cheeks about the preservation of peace and in their condemnation of murders and assassinations. I would like to see a little more practical sympathy displayed in that connection. I do hope that the Minister will have regard to what I said earlier about the effective crime detector who, because he arrests or apprehends some sympathiser with the Fianna Fáil Party, is transferred from a populous area to some remote district in the country.

The Minister to conclude.

Mr. Boland

The statement made by the Deputy has no foundation whatever. The Guards need no assurance from me that, if they do their duty properly, their jobs are safe. I defy Deputy Anthony or anybody else to say that since we came into power Guards have been victimised, penalised or punished because they did their duty. If Guards have to be punished, there is machinery set up for dealing with them. That machinery was set up by the Commissioner under the last Government and is still in operation. Under it disciplinary courts are held and if, following an investigation, they are found to have been guilty of some offence, they are dealt with under the regulations. Deputy Anthony referred to the recent removal of the chief superintendent in Cork. I want to tell him right away that that is not a matter for me.

On a point of order, I did not refer to the chief superintendent in Cork nor did I say anything to mislead the Minister. I referred to the removal of Superintendent O'Connell in Dublin. I also referred to cases in Cork in which Guards were, if I may so put it, unfrocked. They were taken from the detective division and put into uniform. Members of the detective branch in Cork were transferred from the city to remote areas because of their activities in discovering political crime.

Mr. Boland

I thought the Deputy referred to that case and I merely wanted to assure him and to assure the Guards that that was done by the person on whom responsibility for right conduct amongst the Guards devolves, and that is the Commissioner. I hold that the Commissioner is responsible for the conduct of the Guards, to see that their work is done right. He uses his discretion as to what officer is removed in any district. I do not interfere with him in any way. He uses his discretion as to who will or will not be in uniform. If it will be any comfort to Deputy Anthony or any other Deputy or the people in the country to learn it, there is a special squad dealing with these people outside. I can give that assurance now. They have been in operation and will continue to be in operation until we run these people to earth.

I do not want to go back on what should have been dealt with on another Vote, but as the practice has been departed from I will take this opportunity of referring to certain things. Now that Deputy Cosgrave is in the House, I will ask him sincerely to do with that section of the community, for whom he should have responsibility, what we are trying to do with other sections in the country, and that is to induce those people who were definitely convicted for using arms—for instance, those who used rifles in the attack on Kildorrery barracks—to give those arms up. I would ask him to make that gesture now and endeavour to get those people to hand up their arms. I do not know to what extent the organisation outside, the League of Youth, or whatever it is called at this moment, possesses arms, but it is well known that they have some arms and I would like to have the position made clear, so far as the Opposition are concerned, that they will, to the best of their ability, endeavour to have those arms collected. I am prepared to admit that they may not be able to do it, any more than we are able to do it in the case of certain people, people that we were at one time associated with. I admit there may be difficulty in getting some people to hand up their arms. I would like Deputy Cosgrave, if not here, somewhere else, to make an appeal to those people in whom he may have an interest, who have used arms and who have been convicted for using arms, to surrender them.

I am not taking up this attitude in any carping spirit. I am genuinely asking him to co-operate with us in this matter. Since we became the Government we have done everything we could do to collect arms. We have never hesitated in going after arms when we got to know where they were. We have never raided indiscriminately or endeavoured to make trouble by carrying out fruitless searches. Wherever we knew there were arms we collected them and we gave every protection to people whose lives might have been endangered because they helped us to collect arms. If people's sense of civic spirit is not sufficiently strong to assist us voluntarily in this matter, we are prepared to reward them for anything they do in helping us to get arms. Further than that it is not possible, I think, for us to go.

Deputy Cosgrave compared the expenditure on this Department in 1931 with the expenditure in the present year, and he said there was a difference of £222,000. He took up the style of criticism that we adopted against his Administration. We were always saying that there was too much money being expended. I quite admit we took up that attitude. I will, however, say this, that if Deputy Cosgrave's Party had pursued the constitutional line when they went out of office the necessity for that increase would never have arisen. I am not prepared to say offhand how many people associated with the Deputy's Party were put on trial for crimes which amounted to acts of war against the State.

No person with whom I have any influence, or over whom I have any control has ever done anything unconstitutional. That is point number one. Secondly, I was not six months in office before Ministers of the present Government were making speeches threatening to have me arrested. Have they any sense of responsibility? Apparently they have never had. Even the Chief of the Executive on one occasion said he could not make people popular. Is not that a nice confession of failure? Let me say that I do not ask for any popularity from any of the Deputies over there, or from the Ministry.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Cosgrave complained about the cost of the administration of the Guards this year as compared with the time when he was in office, and I am telling him what the reason is. I know that Deputy Cosgrave himself did not go out wearing a blue shirt; I know he did not cut trees, block roads or interfere with trains. But supporters of his Party did. In fact, the person whom he practically gave the leadership of the organisation over to, encouraged those operations and took part in them—that is, the ex-Commissioner of the Gárda. There were at least 600 of these people connected with the Party opposite. Some of them were sentenced, and when they were being released receptions were held for them, and amongst the speakers at these receptions were leading members of the Opposition in this House. They spoke at meetings when certain people came out of jail. Approximately 425 were sentenced by the Tribunal set up by the Party opposite for offences which actually were acts of war. About 275 of the other Party which we are now going to break up were sentenced. Deputy Dillon need not laugh at that remark, because this is a very serious matter. I am explaining why this Government has had to spend so much more money on the Gárda Síochána than was spent in 1931-32. Naturally, I took the opportunity when Deputy Cosgrave put his foot in it—walked into it.

The police force is not an appanage of the Party in power, so far as I know. There were some references by Deputy Dillon to mass recruiting. I do not know what he means by that, but I will give him some figures, and then he can judge for himself whether there has been mass recruiting. I will ask the Deputy to remember that when we took over office there were 6,000 or 7,000 men in the police force, recruited by another Government. I am not going to charge that Administration with putting anybody into the Guards who was not entitled to be there. That would not be fair. We found that the men in the Guards were very efficient and very good men, and I am not going to be tempted to say anything else about any individual. I am not going to say what Deputy Dillon said, that there are rubbish remaining there since the last Government's time. I object to calling any human being rubbish or chaff. I can tell Deputy Dillon this: that during the last Government's time—and I am not going to blame them for it—men had to be put out of the Guards from time to time because they were not found suitable. And because they were not found suitable as Guards it did not follow they were rubbish. Since we started recruiting we found a small percentage unsuitable as Guards, and they were removed. I do not see what grounds Deputy Dillon has for talking of the rubbish that Deputy Oscar Traynor put into the Guards, having regard to the fact that in every police force in the world unsuitable men will inevitably be found, and they have to be removed.

Since the 1st January, 1932, the total number of recruits taken on was 587. That covers a period of four years and I think it will be considered a rather small proportion in a total force of 7,300.

Deputy Dillon I think will have to admit that that is not a very high proportion. During that period there was a wastage of about 350, so there is a net figure of 237 men. That extra number has been able to practically finish a war here, and there is another one to take on now.

They have not £1,000 a year, have they?

Mr. Boland

I do not think they have.

The Estimate is up that much.

Mr. Boland

I do not think that is fair. I thought Deputy Cosgrave was referring to the £1,000 a year I have. The Estimate is down, as he knows.

I am comparing it with four years ago.

Mr. Boland

I say we smashed that campaign at a very cheap cost.

At £1,000 a year each it is dear.

Mr. Boland

I asked Deputy Cosgrave to make an appeal to get the arms in. He made a very halfhearted condemnation of the campaign.

For 14 years in this country I have been asking for the arms to be delivered up. I got no response over there. I still stand for only one authority controlling arms in this State, and I have always stood for it.

Mr. Boland

I will promise, as acting Minister for Justice, that if Deputy Cosgrave or any of his Party can induce those people whom we have in jail to hand up those arms I will do my part to see that they are released.

What people?

Mr. Boland

The people who are in prison for firing on the Gárda Barracks at Kildorrery; the people who attacked Deputy Murphy's house, with arms; the people who fired into Mr. Kinnane's house in Tipperary; members of the League of Youth—a branch of Deputy Cosgrave's organisation.

I have not got an Attorney-General; I have not got a Ministry of Justice. I have to take, I presume, all the Minister says as being the case. I do know and I can state here that the particular person convicted in respect of the attack on Deputy Murphy's house is an innocent man.

That is an absurd statement.

Mr. Boland

We know where we are now, and we know what the appeal amounts to.

It amounts to this; notwithstanding the fact that he is an innocent man I still say that no person in this country has the right to have arms in his possession except by the authority of this State.

Mr. Boland

That is satisfactory. I accept that.

And that is satisfactory too.

The Attorney-General

Deputy Cosgrave has made a very serious statement in suggesting that I have been responsible for convicting an innocent man. It is an extraordinary statement to make here in this House. If Deputy Cosgrave would produce to me any evidence suggesting that the conviction has been wrongly obtained I would certainly have it investigated right away. If he will read the report of the case he will see that, on what appeared to be perfectly honest bona fide evidence of identification, the man who was convicted was identified as being the person who was in the house. I imagine he would agree that the person who tried the case had no other option than to accept the evidence.

I believe that the man who was convicted in that case is an innocent man, and I am making that statement.

What evidence has the Deputy?

The Attorney-General

If the Deputy says he is an innocent man I presume he has before him some evidence to satisfy himself on the point. If the Deputy would submit that evidence to me, or let me know what are the sources from which he has got the evidence, I would be quite prepared to consider making a recommendation to the Minister or the Government in respect of the case. I would not feel happy if an innocent man were condemned.

In connection with the matter under discussion, I had it from a captain of the Blueshirts that we had the right man if we could prove it against him.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Cosgrave asked for an assurance from me that I did not stand for third-degree methods. I certainly do not, and never did stand for them. The police have got no instructions, and never got them, to use third-degree methods. If they are proved to have been used, I imagine myself it would be a factor in obtaining the man's release.

Will the Minister say that instructions will be issued to the effect that there should be no third-degree methods?

Mr. Boland

If there is any case in which it is alleged that third-degree methods were used——

Does not the Minister know it has been alleged?

Mr. Boland

I am not going to take it for granted that the Guards go out of their way to use them. I do not think they do. There may be—and I am prepared to say there possibly are —cases in which members of the Guards exceed their instructions, but, if they have done it in a way which brings them under disciplinary action, they will be dealt with. They certainly have not been encouraged at any time to be anything but fair in their treatment of prisoners. On the contrary, they have been discouraged. I would not stand for anything else. I have been a prisoner myself on several occasions, and although I was not badly treated I have seen others badly treated, and I certainly would not stand for it. I can assure everybody that that is so. Deputy Cosgrave tried to make a big point about the taking of £9,000 out of the Road Fund. He drew a picture of the resultant unemployment, forgetting, of course, that there was £2,500,000 left out for work of that kind this year. Under Section 10 of the Road Traffic Act, the police are reimbursed for work they do under that Act. Therefore, we must take that fact into consideration. That is not making war on the Road Fund at all.

Are they not doing work on the census? Are they getting paid for that?

Mr. Boland

It is laid down in the Act. Surely, the ex-President knows that that cannot be described as a raid. We are doing what we are authorised by the Act to do.

You legalised the raid in other words.

Mr. Boland

I am reminded that Deputy Mulcahy was Minister for Local Government when that Act was drafted. We did not change in that respect at all.

You sat on it for three years and did not change anything.

Mr. Boland

We will accept joint responsibility for that anyway. There is no point there. An attempt was made to make a smart little point, and it did not work.

He is never happier than when he has the Cumann na nGaedheal flag around him.

Mr. Boland

I am trying to deal with every point made by Deputy Cosgrave. He referred to an important officer who was in some competition. Those Guards, as far as I know, are senior officers. They are on duty practically all the time. They can be taken out of their beds at any time during the night; they must always be available. I imagine that if Jack has to work all the time he will be a dull boy. If he is not allowed to play sometimes he will be very dull. Those officers, as far as I know—I am simply deputising for the Minister—are very efficient. In cases which have shocked the country they have done everything which could be deemed possible to do. As I said in my opening statement on the Vote for the Minister's Department, some people will go into the dock charged with those offences, and it is not right that Deputy Cosgrave should deny a little recreation to people who have such arduous work to do.

I have no objection whatever to the Guards playing golf all day and dancing all night if there is no work to be done, but, on an occasion when there is a crisis of any sort, they must be on duty. That is not unreasonable.

Mr. Boland

Practically every speaker has adopted the method of starting off by telling us "I do not mean this to be taken as an attack on the Guards," and then proceeding to attack them in all their moods and tenses in every possible way. Deputy McGilligan started off on the same line. I am quite sure that even though I was able to say I had a letter in my hand from the Judge in the Ball case, complimenting the Guards on the excellent way in which they had conducted the case, he was quite capable of getting up and repeating the statement he made about the Guards looking out to sea and getting their photographs taken. Irresponsible statements like that might be all right coming from people in opposition, as we were a few years ago, without ever having had any experience as Ministers, but there is no excuse at all for such statements being made, without any examination whatever, or evidently any desire to ascertain the facts, by people who held positions as Ministers for years. If ever the time comes—and I do not think it will come—that we should get back into Opposition, I think I can promise that you will find a much higher standard. However, as I say, I do not think that time will come, or at least not during the time of the people opposite. I think I have disposed of Deputy Cosgrave's points. If not, he can tell me.

There is one other point, if the Minister would allow me to make it now?

Mr. Boland

Certainly.

The Gárda have duties in connection with the present census, and I have heard of one case in which a Guard, acting on instructions, had to call to a house six times. I think that is unreasonable. I think that whoever has charge of this census business ought to allow the Guard to leave details of the information he wants at the house, and that he should not be asked to call back to the house so many times.

Mr. Boland

Well, of course, I would have to make inquiries about that, as I do not know anything about it. I can quite understand the Deputy's point and I shall find out what can be done in the matter. I do not think it is necessary for me to go back to the question of the expert. I think Deputy Dillon is satisfied and I do not think we ought to go back on it. I think I dealt with it very effectively. However, I should like to say that there is not what one would properly call a school of experts. There is no such thing as a school, but there is this technical bureau, the details of which I gave the House when I was replying on the Minister's Vote. As Deputies know, there is an expert on ballistics there. I believe he is an expert, but what constitutes an expert I am not prepared to say. However, he is recognised as a very efficient person, and it is a matter for the judge to say whether he is an expert or not. He has two regular assistants and he gives them all the training he can. The particular man referred to has had great experience, at least since that time—I think it was two years ago—and his evidence on that occasion was corroborated by Commandant Stapleton. Since that, he has been highly complimented by the judge on the manner in which he gave his evidence. I am not saying that he is an expert yet, but he was put up by the Attorney-General as a witness, and he gave evidence in certain cases requiring expert knowledge and was so successful in that, and so impressed the judge, that the judge thought it worth while to make a special reference to him in a letter which he wrote after the trial in which he complimented the Guards. In that letter he made a special reference to this man—McGrath, I think it was. That, I think, was the Galway case, and he mentioned a number of cases in which a witness in ballistics was necessary.

Would the Minister tell us whether his Department have formed any opinion as to how long it takes to train a man?

Mr. Boland

I could not tell the Deputy that. I would not take the Department's view on that question if it were given to me. I prefer to take my own opinion on a matter of that kind. I know that there are some people who could learn it in six months and others who could not even learn it in ten years. That is my opinion. It may be the Department's opinion that a man can be trained in such a subject in a particular time, but it is not my opinion. Deputy Dillon must know himself of cases where one man might be able to learn a subject in a very short time and of other cases where you could not knock it into another man's head in years. That is a thing on which we can only have an opinion. The judge and the jury must have formed an opinion, but we could not lay down a dogmatic view on the point. As I say, the Department may have its view, but I hold myself free to decide whether a man is an expert or not or whether his evidence is worth relying on or not.

That is the whole question.

Mr. Boland

With regard to the point about handball alleys, I agree that if we could put handball alleys in every police station in the country it would be a great idea.

What about having them in the Gaeltacht?

Mr. Boland

I would not confine it to the Gaeltacht. I think handball is a great game. I think it is very good for the people in the Gaeltacht as well as in the country generally, and it would be a very good thing if we could have a handball alley in every village in the country. I am afraid, however, that we would have to make a massed assault on the Minister for Finance before we would get the necessary cash.

What about this £2,500,000 that you have?

Mr. Boland

Well, I would rather devote that to bog roads and accommodation roads and the other things the ordinary people have to use. I think it would be very much better to spend the money in that way, but if the Minister can get the funds for the other purpose I am quite prepared to make a heavy attack on him, but I am not going to say that I shall do it now. I think I have dealt with the question of the 7½ per cent. extra pay for people sent to the Gaeltacht. I have also dealt with recruiting. It has been stopped and is not likely to be reopened this year. If there are no other points to be covered, I do not think I shall say any more, as I think I have dealt very fully with the points that were raised.

Vote put and agreed to.
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