Last night I was dealing with some points raised by Deputy Corry in connection with beet and wheat and other schemes. According to Deputy Corry, the beet and wheat and light oil schemes were the be-all and the end-all of agricultural prosperity. He was criticising Deputy Dillon because, according to him, these schemes would, but for Deputy Dillon, save agriculturists from the depression from which they are suffering. I do not know how he works that out. Deputy Dillon is not the Minister and, whatever his opinion might be, if the farmers found these schemes a paying business, nobody could prevent them taking advantage of them. But these schemes have proved themselves a costly failure, inasmuch as at the end of seven years of encouragement of these schemes, and with all the expenditure in advertising the virtues of these schemes, the farmers have not taken to them and they do not grow wheat to the extent anticipated; they actually grow wheat to the extent of less than half of what is necessary. That proves that the wheat scheme has been a costly failure. It is costing the consumers from £2,500,000 to £2.750,000 in the extra prices they are paying for the flour, and nobody benefits by that with the exception of a small number of farmers and the flour millers. Farmers with suitable land can grow the wheat successfully, but fully three-quarters of the farmers, and also all the consumers, are losing by the growing of wheat. The wheat scheme may be a benefit to the flour miller and his employees, but it is not a benefit to the farmers in general.
The same applies to the beet scheme. Notwithstanding Deputy Corry's eloquence about the benefit of the beet scheme, and all that it has conferred on the farmers, he is just as eloquent at the farmers' meetings trying to get a living wage for those who are growing beet. If Deputy Corry's word carries at all, it carries at the farmers' meetings, where he is looking for a living wage in a scheme that is not providing that to the farmer. The cost of the beet and the wheat schemes runs to something approaching £4,000,000. In so far as agriculture is concerned, those schemes are no benefit to the average farmer. All the money that is paid by the consumer and the taxpayer is being expended in a manner that confers no benefit on the farmer. If it was put along with other moneys into some scheme which would provide relief for agriculture, it would be more appreciated, because some relief is very much needed. Now that the economic war is over, and that there is not the excuse for all these foolish schemes that have proved such failures: now that there is not such a case for a continuation of that policy, I hope the Government will try, with the help of the Agricultural Commission, to devise some better schemes so that the taxation paid on the supposition that it is going to benefit agriculture will really benefit that industry.
Deputy Corry also told us that because £2,500,000 have been remitted from the land annuities the farmers are so much better off now than before 1933. That money is wasted in other directions. I do not want to say much about the losses the farmers have sustained during the last six or seven years. Their losses have been very serious and they would not be able to regain them in twice the number of years in normal times. Apart from that, we came out of the economic war with certain impositions placed on our exports that were not there before. Every animal leaving Eire and going into Northern Ireland or Great Britain is going with an earmark which represents a loss of 30/- on each animal. We are exporting 1,000,000 cattle each year, so that we are losing £1,500,000 by the earmark on our cattle.
In the same way we are losing on our eggs. Before the economic war there were none of these things. The Free State produce in those days was treated the same as domestic produce, just like the British and Northern Ireland produce. That is not so now. Our cattle and eggs are marked in such a way that their value is depreciated. That means a loss to the farmers of more than is saved by the halving of the annuities. Before the economic war we had a market for all we could produce and send to Britain, but we have not got that now. We are tied down now to a quota, and the farmers have lost considerably, even though there is a reduction in the annuities. The rates have increased also by about £750,000 over that period. Between all these items we are losing about twice as much as we have gained.
I do not say that the position of 1931 or even 1929 is an ideal that we should aim at. If agriculture is to be put upon its feet, and the farmers put in a position to carry on their industry, they must be placed in a much better condition than they were in 1929 or 1931. To get at the position of agriculture in this country, as I said last night, it will be necessary to go back to 1913 to find real normal times, and to see how the position of the farmers compares relatively with other classes in the State in 1939 as compared with 1913.
I would like to congratulate the Minister upon the introduction to this House of one word which means very much. I would like to keep it before him. That is the word "relativity." What we want is to get the farmer into a relative position, relative to other classes and relative to pre-war times. I hope the Minister will not lose sight of that when he is dealing with the position of the farmers. That exactly is what is wrong. Everybody has got everything they have looked for, and the Government has taken a great deal of credit to themselves for giving everybody everything without costing anybody anything. That is, of course, what they claim credit for. But money is not given around and scattered in all directions without somebody paying. Who paid? Of course, the farmer paid. If you stir up a lake or a pool you will find that there will be a lot of ingredients through the water, but eventually it will all settle at the bottom. In the same way, in the process of shifting the burden of taxation, wherever taxation is imposed from the top downwards, it is shifted until it goes to the bottom, and it settles on the basic industry and the people engaged in that industry. That is what has happened to agriculture.
Some 25 years ago we based our claim for the management of our own affairs on the ground that the 40 British boards that were ruling this country were too extravagant for this country to be able to bear the burden of taxation, which was something like £11,000,000 for 32 counties. Now, for 26 counties we are paying practically three times that amount and yet it is not too heavy. This cannot be done without somebody paying the piper. Everybody is better off, we are told. There are more motor cars; there is more being spent on drink and cigarettes, on pictures and everything else. How can everybody be better off if all this money is coming from nowhere? Is it not obvious that this heavy taxation must come from somewhere? It is coming from the farmers and that will continue so long as they are able to carry on. Of course, they are not able to carry on any longer and something must be done. I know that the Minister is desirous now to do something. He has set up a commission. I am very glad and I hope that everybody will co-operate to make the findings of that commission successful and beneficial for the agricultural community.
The matter is not so easily dealt with as some people seem to think. Taxation is too high. I agree with Deputy Corry that the burden must be lightened at the top. Otherwise it will be very difficult to see how agriculture can be made prosperous. The burden must be reduced. We have too many inspectors and officials. They have been increased enormously. There has been an enormous increase to the number we had six or seven years ago. This country cannot afford to carry that burden. We were already paying too much in overhead charges and this is a dead weight because they produce nothing only trouble for the people that they honour with their calls. The farmers, businessmen and all classes are held up by these inspectors and these officials. I hope when the Government and the Agricultural Commission come to deal with these problems that they will consider these things.
There is another matter to which I want to call attention. It is very serious and it shows the trend of Government policy. At this time, when there is no excuse for increased taxation, when one would naturally expect that the time had really come for the reduction of taxation by the £2,000,000 that was promised when there was not the excuse of an economic war or anything, something else had to be trumped up. There had to be a threat of world war, and this poor country, that is unable to carry on economically, is asked now to face up to the payment of £3,250,000 or £3,500,000 towards defence. It is a most ridiculous thing for this country to propose to spend £3,000,000 or the half of £3,000,000 on defence because it will matter nothing one way or the other in a great European war what part this country takes. All that this country would be able to do would not be worth while, and I believe that we would be safer by not spending one penny. This country cannot afford to spend money on war or on defence. Therefore, I think the Government will be ill-advised to go on with this defence scheme that is to be such a burden.
If this £3,250,000 that it is proposed to spend upon defence and the £4,000,000 or £4,500,000 that is spent upon the wheat and beet schemes and also the £1,000,000 or £500,000 that is spent upon the light oil schemes were turned to some good account for the benefit of agriculture, much could be done to improve the position of agriculture. The farmers could be derated. They could get money at 2½ or 3 per cent., or even less. Before money is lent to farmers they want to be made credit-worthy, to be first in a position to be able to repay it. There have been various schemes mentioned in this House as to how they could be helped. I have mentioned a couple of them. Another scheme is to reduce the price of agricultural machinery and manures and everything that goes into production, raw materials of every description. Cut them down to the very lowest and cut down the cost of production. That is the only way that any progress can be made.
There is an anomalous position in this country with regard to unemployment at present. In rural Ireland to-day there are not only thousands of people registered as unemployed, but there is at the same time a shortage of labour, simply because the people are being paid for being unemployed, instead of being paid for being employed. I suggest the time has come to examine this question and that people should be paid for being employed instead of for being unemployed. I suggest that every able-bodied man should be encouraged to find employment in these rural districts, because there is plenty of work to be done. Instead of spending the money on unemployment assistance the Government should pay employment assistance, that is, pay the difference between the economic wage and the living wage. If that were done, men would be encouraged to seek employment and every man could find his job at the value of his labour, i.e., at whatever the farmers were able to give him. Every farmer wants more workmen if he can get them, at what the work is worth. But he has to get them at what the work is worth. Otherwise he will not employ them. It is a question of £ s.d. The farmer is not such a bad business man as some people on the Government Benches think. They will employ men if they find that their work is worth a certain wage and they would be prepared to pay that. But, certainly they are not able to pay nearly the minimum wage, especially at certain seasons of the year. I suggest, and I think this should meet with the approval of all Parties in this House, that, so far as it is possible to devise a scheme, the money that is being wasted on unemployment assistance and encouraging idleness should be paid towards encouraging employment, paying the difference between the economic wage, as I said, and the living wage. If that were done, it would go a long way to solve the problem of unemployment, in rural districts at any rate. It will increase production, which is what we want. It will encourage the young people who are growing up to take an interest in the land and they will not be flying from it. Everybody can see from the trend of things that the country is going down. The land is overflowing with water, growing rushes and heather, everything is neglected and in a dissipated condition and people are walking about idle, and being paid for doing so. I think the Government should make a start and try to solve the unemployment problem by paying employment assistance instead of unemployment assistance.
I hope that these points will receive due consideration and that all Parties in the House will co-operate with any body, whether the Agricultural Commission or any other body, which tries to find a solution of these difficulties, because, as every thinking man has pointed out again and again, the matter is too urgent to leave over, and too urgent even to await the report of the Agricultural Commission. The people are flying from the land and the position has become so serious that something ought to be done at once, if the country is to be saved, because, in the long run, the nation depends upon its principal industry.