Vote 57—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £205,114 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le hIldeontaisí i-gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £205,114 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The details of the Estimate are explained by the various notes published in the book of Estimates and I presume it is not necessary to go through them seriatim now as Deputies will have studied these notes for themselves. Consequently, I propose to confine my remarks to a brief review of the activities of the Department during the course of the past twelve months and to any special circumstances that may have affected them.

The work of the Department of Industry and Commerce, as Deputies know, covers a wide field and it would take a long time to give anything in the nature of a detailed account of all its activities. I will, however, refer to the major matters with which the Department was concerned and, if any Deputy requires information concerning some of its minor activities, I will endeavour to meet his wishes when replying to the debate.

In the industrial sphere, the year which has just closed was one of some difficulty. It was the first year for a number of years in which an increase in industrial employment was not recorded. There was in fact a slight decrease in the total employment given in protected industries. The experience of all industries during the course of the year was not uniform. Some continued to expand and to give more employment. Others showed a diminution of employment as compared with the previous year. The decreases in employment, where they occurred, whether comparatively large, as they were in some instances, or negligible, as they were in others may, however, in all cases in fact be attributed to causes which it can be hoped will prove temporary in character. I may mention in particular the disturbed international situation which prevailed during part of the period and more particularly to the fact that, before the terms of the Trade Agreement which was made in April of last year with the Government of the United Kingdom were announced, and for quite a long time afterwards, considerable uncertainty prevailed as to its possible and probable effects. During the period of the negotiations which culminated in the Trade Agreement there was prevalent in many directions a feeling that the Agreement would involve wholesale reductions in customs duties and the immediate abolition of quotas which had been imposed under the provisions of the Control of Imports Acts. That feeling permeated manufacturing as well as distributive circles. The distributors curtailed their buying as much as possible and purchased practically only day to day needs from the manufacturers and the latter, in the fear of being left with large stocks on their hands, reduced their output to a minimum. Even when the terms of the Trade Agreement were announced and it was made known that there would be only a minimum reduction of duties of a limited and specified list of commodities, the provision made in the Agreement for a review of all protective duties and import restrictions was misunderstood by many. The result was that the anticipation of further tariff reductions and the speedy abolition of quotas still persisted and led to a continued dislocation of trade with consequent upset to production and employment. In fact, it was only quite recently that trade may be said to have settled down again to more or less normal channels. But that can, however, be said definitely.

During the course of the year, however, a number of new factories came into production and manufacture was commenced here of classes of goods which had not previously appeared in our industrial statistics. I may mention particularly factories for the production of art silk fabric, electrical cooking and heating apparatus, carpets, safety glass, worsted yarn, cement, collapsible tubes, zip fasteners and other products of less importance.

Despite the circumstances to which I have referred—the uncertainty created by the Trade Agreement and its consequent depressing effect upon trade—we have to note that during the year the flow of industrial proposals received in the Department was maintained at as high a level as in previous years. Some of these proposals were of considerable importance and occupied the attention of the officers of the Department in their examination for a considerable part of the period. It may be of interest to the Dáil to know that a considerable number of proposals was received from industrialists in Europe who, on account of the unsettled political situation there have been considering the advisability of establishing plants here. As a result, the Department has succeeded in making plans for the establishment of a number of industries which it might not otherwise have been possible to secure owing to the high degree of technical skill required in connection with them. Many of these plans will, I hope, materialise during the year and important new industries will be established in consequence of them.

As I am dealing with this matter of the industrial position now, I should perhaps refer to the work done during the course of the past year under the various enactments which have been passed here for the control of employment in industry, and of other matters that affect industry. These statutes, as Deputies know, are numerous. Under the Factory and Workshops Acts approximately 98 per cent. of the factories on the register were inspected during the year. That meant that Departmental inspectors visited at least 11,000 industrial concerns. As a result of those inspections 111 cases were sent to the Chief State Solicitor for the institution of proceedings for breaches of the Acts. The decisions which were given, in the cases in which proceedings were instituted, are set cut periodically in the Departmental Journal without the names of the firms concerned being mentioned, so that there will be widespread information concerning the nature of the cases that arose. Under the Trade Boards Acts, the enforcement of rates of wages prescribed by the 15 trade boards now functioning was carried out by industrial inspectors who are vested with the powers of appointed officers under the Act. During the year the rates of wages of some 19,000 workers were examined. That entailed an inspection of the wage records of over 2,000 firms, representing 90 per cent. approximately of the firms who employ workers on operations that come within the scope of the trade boards. As a result of these inspections, arrears of wages were paid to workers in many cases.

Mr. Cosgrave

Did the Minister say 19,000 workers and 2,000 firms?

Mr. Lemass

19,000 workers and approximately 2,000 firms. The enforcement of rules made by apprenticeship committees is also undertaken by our industrial inspectors. Under the rules there are two committees functioning in connection with the brush and broom trade and the hairdressing trade; 237 firms were inspected, representing 56 per cent. of the total on the register. In addition, rules governing the furniture trade in the Dublin area came into force in May of last year, while the rules governing the house painting and decorating trade for the whole country became operative in July. These rules are now being enforced.

During the year the two Shop Acts, which were passed, came into operation. At the moment we have legislation regulating the conditions of industrial workers and of shop workers in full force. The benefits of holidays, with pay, have been extended to most other classes of workers by the Holidays (Employees) Act which recently became law, and which will be brought into operation probably in the month of May. Industrial workers were brought within the scope of that Act, and the holidays section of the Conditions of Employment Act of 1936 was repealed. All workers, other than shop employees, entitled to holidays with pay will, therefore, come within the scope of the new Act. All the exclusion orders made up to the date of last year's Estimate are still in operation without alteration. In addition, regulations have been made in respect of shift workers in automatic sheet glass works. These regulations were made to implement the convention relating to the hours of work for automatic sheet glass workers. Regulations have also been made permitting workers to be employed in sewer cleaning during the night. A maximum week of 44 hours was fixed in these regulations. Up to date 24 sets of exclusion orders have been made under the Act.

During the year there was some evidence of an increased tendency on the part of employers to introduce the five-day system of working. That system is not, however, by any means general, and apparently, in most cases where it has been introduced, it has been as an experiment. There seemed to be no inclination on the part of employers to reduce the length of the normal working day, so that those in some of the five-day shops are obliged to work nine hours, which is the maximum permitted by the Act. The only case which occurred during the year in which young persons were permitted to work more than 40 hours per week was in the worsted and spinning industry. A regulation made under the Act deemed young persons employed as layers and takers-off to be adult workers. Other cases in which young persons may work longer than 40 hours are the boot and shoe, enamel ware, wallpaper, woollen and worsted, linen, cotton, jute and pottery industries. The position in regard to jute, linen, cotton and pottery is under review. The consideration of applications for shift work licences formed a substantial part of the work of the Department during the year. Apart from an examination of the applications on their merits, the conditions of each industry in which shifts are worked were reviewed. For the time being, the firms which are entitled to work shifts, represent industries engaged in the manufacture of automatic machinery, woollen and worsted piece goods, spinning, binder twine etc. Workers are being permitted to work in shifts on the civil engineering constructional works proceeding at Poulaphouca. It is not yet clear whether shift work will be a permanent feature of the hosiery industry. The licence granted for a limited period coincides with the quota periods. Of the firms doing shifts in this industry at present seven have been granted shift work licences.

The position in regard to the registration of wage agreements under the appropriate section of the Conditions of Employment Act of 1936 remains unsatisfactory. Only one such agreement has so far been registered. As Deputies will remember, a good deal of controversy arose following upon registration. The industry concerned is the hosiery industry. I have had under consideration the advisability of amending that section of the Act. I am satisfied that while amendment may be desirable it is not necessary to enable it to be properly worked, and I would like very much to see some effort being made to avail of it more fully. I may also say that the Department is investigating the matter of the employment of young persons in the industry. Some years ago it used to be said that industrial employers were carrying on their industries with an undue proportion of juvenile labour. It was always doubtful whether the allegation was well-founded, but in the last year or so the position seems to have altered considerably. The available statistics concerning employment in protected industries, which relate to September, 1938, show that 84.8 per cent. of the total number employed were adults and only 15.2 juveniles, as compared with 82.4 per cent. of adults, and 17.6 per cent. of juveniles in September of the previous year. These figures indicate that the extension of protection to Irish industries is not having the effect which has been suggested by leading to an increased use of juvenile labour at the expense of adult employment. Male employment is 57.2 per cent., being in excess of female employment at 42.8 per cent.

The Shops (Conditions of Employment) Act, which was passed last year, came into operation and, as Deputies will remember, imposes restrictions on the employment of juveniles and regulates the employment of the adult members of the staffs of shops on the general basis of a 48-hour and a 5½-day week, with a maximum of 11 hours employment in any one day. Provision was made in part of that Act for the establishment of a shops wages board to regulate the wages of members of the staffs of shops on lines analogous to those followed by a trade board. That shops wages board has not yet been established, but I hope to have it functioning in a comparatively short time. The principal complaint which has arisen in connection with that Act came from hotel proprietors. The requirements in respect of hotel employees are less onerous than they are in respect of ordinary shop workers, but, none the less, hotel proprietors say that it is difficult for them to comply with them. That matter has been the subject of many conferences and discussions, and I am satisfied that some at least of the representations made by the hotel proprietors are well-founded and I have had some consideration given to the possibility of amending the Act to meet those complaints, in part at least. So far as it was possible to make a concession to hotel keepers under the provisions of the Act, that was done by the provisions of the Hotel (Working Hours) Order, 1938, which abolished the reduction of permissible overtime which would normally follow after a period of four weeks.

The prevention and settlement of industrial disputes occupied a large amount of Departmental time during the year. During that period the Department has intervened in approximately 60 trade disputes, many of which involved numerous and long conferences between the disputing parties. Whether our experience in the coming year is likely to be better or worse it is impossible to say; but I can state that some progress has been made towards the establishment in various industries of conciliatory machinery which, we hope, will operate to eliminate some, if not all, of the causes of dispute. There are now in existence 14 conciliation boards, or joint industrial councils, composed of representatives of the employers and workers in the industries concerned. Meetings of the majority of these boards have been held at fairly regular intervals during the year, and through the machinery of the boards many differences which might have led to stoppages of work have been composed. I have mentioned that a wage agreement on a national basis has been negotiated for the hosiery industry. The same has also been done for the bacon industry while for the milling industry the national wage agreement was revised during the year by an arbitration decision.

I presume it is not necessary to attempt to go at any length now into a report on the activities of the Prices Commission during the year. The Prices Commission was required by statute to furnish an annual report which contains details of its work. The new commission, which was established under the amended Act, was set up in February of last year. In addition to its functions as a Prices Commission in the ordinary meaning of the term, it has been given, as Deputies will remember, additional functions by the Prices Commission (Extension of Functions) Act of last year which followed the Trade Agreement with the United Kingdom. That Act empowered the Prices Commission to review, on the request of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the operation of customs duties or importation restrictions on goods subject to such duties or restrictions and to report and make recommendations to the Minister for Industry and Commerce thereon. A number of reports have, in fact, been received.

During the year, as I have mentioned, a trade agreement was concluded between this country and the United Kingdom. Other trade negotiations with different countries were also undertaken. The commercial agreements with Germany and Turkey were renewed. In the case of Germany, the agreement was extended to embrace Austria and the territories ceded by Czecho-Slovakia to Germany. Steps were also taken for the renewal of the modus vivendi with Egypt. Commercial agreements with the Netherlands and with Belgium expired during the year. In view of the undertakings which were given to the United Kingdom under the agreement with that country, it was not considered advisable to renew the undertakings given to the Netherlands and to Belgium in respect of the issue of import licences and the quantitative control of imports. While steps have not been taken to renew the agreements with these countries, it is considered reasonable, because of favourable balances of trade with them, that they might be asked to continue on a de facto basis to grant for the import of Irish goods quota and other facilities similar to those granted under the expired agreements. Trade relations with the United States of America, Australia, New Zealand, Roumania, Hungary, Yugo Slavia, Czecho-Slovakia, Colombia, the Argentine, and Brazil have been examined. Proposals for the conclusion of trade agreements with these countries, except Brazil, are under consideration. In the case of Brazil, proposals are awaited from the Government of that country for the conclusion of a more comprehensive agreement than that in force at present. The existing agreement is on the most favoured nation basis.

One of the sub-heads of the Vote relates to mineral exploration work undertaken by the Department. I do not propose to deal at any length with that now, because we had the matter before us only recently when a Supplementary Estimate was passed here, and on that occasion I gave a review of the work which has been done in connection with the exploration of gypsum deposits at Monaghan and coal deposits in South Laoighis. During the year only one lease, and that was for slate, was granted under the Mines and Minerals Act, and one mining right, in connection with which the mineral concerned was silica, was granted. There have been 28 leases granted up to date, of which eight have lapsed for one reason or another. Of the remainder, 13 are in respect of slate, and the others are in respect of coal, fireclay, lead, marble, silica. Six grants of mining rights have been made since 1931. Four were in connection with the project for the development of the copper deposits at Bonmahon. Of these, three have been surrendered. One of the remaining rights is for lead and silver mines in County Tipperary and another in respect of silica in County Cork.

Since the enactment of the Mines and Minerals Act there has been considerable development of such minerals as slate, limestone and marble, but the same cannot be said of other important mineral deposits, such as are usually obtained by mining; that is to say, such minerals as coal, gypsum, iron, lead and copper. From time to time the Department has received complaints from prospectors and others who are interested in these minerals that the provisions of the Mines and Minerals Act are not the best that could be devised to facilitate the working of these mines. A revision of the Mines and Minerals Act has, accordingly, been undertaken and it is proposed to submit to the Oireachtas at an early date a new Mines and Minerals Bill designed to remove the difficulties of the 1931 Act and promote more directly and efficiently the development of the mineral resources of the country generally. Various proposals made to us have had to be postponed pending the enactment of the new legislation I have mentioned and the question of the development of the Slieveardagh coalfield on which we have had already a report has also been postponed until certain powers which it is proposed to seek under the new Bill shall have been obtained. That is, of course, a matter of considerable importance. The imports of anthracite coal last year amounted to nearly 80,000 tons and there is definite evidence of a growing tendency to use that fuel. In these circumstances, the development of our mines, which contain very large quantities of the best anthracite, is a matter of very great importance. Five grants for mineral exploration were made out of employment-scheme voted moneys during the year, the total amount expended being £650. That expenditure covered limestone, slate and flagstone deposits. These grants have been given principally for the removal of the overburden of quarries and the construction of roads to mineral deposits. By such means, the opening up of new deposits is encouraged and local unemployment relieved.

The activities of the Turf Development Board also arise for consideration under this Estimate. During the year, the Turraun Peat Works, acquired in 1935, have been in regular production. The development of the Clonsast Bog in Leix-Offaly is proceeding. One cutting machine was experimentally operated during 1938 and two will be in operation during the 1939 season. Production took place in Lyracrompane Bog, in County Kerry, during 1938. The product, I am assured, is an extremely satisfactory fuel. The marketing of hand-won turf has been relinquished by the board and transferred to the co-operative turf societies. The preliminary drainage of suitable bog areas has been put in hands in one centre in Wexford and in Glenties, County Donegal. That work is being carried out by the Turf Board engineers with Minor Relief Vote funds.

The Department, as Deputies know, is also responsible for tourist development work. I do not propose to deal with that matter at any length now because the Bill, leave to introduce which was granted in December last, is now ready and will, I hope, be before members early next week. We shall have it under discussion here when the Dáil resumes after Easter. The discussion of that Bill will raise the whole question of the extent to which the State should participate in tourist development and any suggestions or proposals which Deputies have to make in that connection can be kept for that occasion. The delay in producing the Bill was due largely to technical and legal difficulties which arose in its preparation and to pressure of work upon the office of the Parliamentary Draftsman.

The section of the Department which deals with transport has also had an exceptionally difficult year. The difficulties affecting transport which arose during the year resulted, as Deputies are aware, in the appointment of the Transport Commission which is now sitting. The fact that that tribunal has not yet reported makes it difficult to discuss the transport problem freely at present. I presume, however, that an opportunity for doing so will arise shortly after the report is available.

A question which may be asked is when the Bill to implement the report of the Harbours Tribunal will be forthcoming. The Harbours Tribunal met a long time ago, and I informed the Dáil some years ago that I was having proposals for legislation prepared to give general effect to its recommendations. The preparation of that Bill, however—it will be a big Bill and will contain a number of very complicated provisions—has taken a very considerable time and occupied the officers of the Department during the year. It is now nearing completion and I hope to have it available at a fairly early date. The Bill has, in fact, been drafted and is ready for circulation, subject to the observations which other Government Departments may have to make upon it.

One of the main activities of the Department during the year arose in connection with the development of civil aviation. Again, I presume it is not necessary to deal with that matter at any length, because we had a Supplementary Estimate on which the question of the development of civil aviation was discussed here a few weeks ago. I gave on that occasion the available statistics concerning the growth of the use of our civil aviation service and some indication of our future development plans. I trust that, in the course of the next two or three years, there will be substantial development of civil aviation in this country and connecting this country with others and our plans have been based on that assumption.

Some reference must be made to one other activity of the Department which arose during the past year and about which not much is known by the public. I refer to the special branch we set up in September of last year in the light of the international situation then existing to consider and deal with all the problems that would arise in connection with the maintenance of essential supplies in case of emergency. That branch has been working at great pressure preparing plans for the building up of reserves of food and other essential materials, forming the nucleus of an organisation which would become responsible, should an emergency arise, for the central purchasing and selling of food and other essential commodities and for the control and regulation of imports and exports and distribution of such products. A great deal of work has been done. A survey has been made of all the principal trades and industries of the country. Particulars have been obtained from the most important amongst them of the stocks usually carried at particular dates. Particulars have been obtained also of the organisations existing in these various trades and industries and, failing such organisations, of the principal persons concerned, so that early contact could be made in case of emergency for the purpose of making arrangements with regard to stock distribution and other matters. Various industries and trades were urged to increase their stocks to the greatest practicable limits so as to provide the largest possible margin of safety in case of emergency. In the case of some private firms there is, naturally, difficulty in financing the maintenance of abnormally large stocks. That matter is at present receiving attention.

In the case of wheat, it might be mentioned that, in addition to the normal stocks of wheat and flour carried by flour millers, the flour millers have made special arrangements by which an additional reserve of 50,000 tons has been established. Let us hope that that reserve will increase. That reserve has been accompanied by an increase in the price of flour of 1/- a sack. In the case of sugar, arrangements have been made to meet the difference between home production and the annual consumption and these arrangements will be expedited so that the needs of the country will be covered. The question of rationing has also been under consideration and plans have been prepared for the rationing of motor spirits and heavy oils for the propulsion of vehicles. These will be the only kinds of rationing that will be imposed at least in the early days of the emergency. This country in the case of foodstuffs has an exportable surplus and the situation will be more likely to be met by restrictions on imports than by a rationing scheme. Numbers of forms, orders and documents of that nature have been prepared and should be ready for issue should the need arise.

I trust that the work done by that special branch of the Department during the past six months will never have to be utilised. But the Dáil should be aware that that work occupied a considerable amount of the time of the Department's officials during that period. For some weeks it involved the dislocation of the Department's normal work. The arrangements now made have ensured that the work of that special branch is proceeding without any interference with a normal staff of the Department and the normal work of the Department. These are the principal matters to which it is necessary to make reference now. If any Deputy wants to raise a query concerning any other activities of the Department, I will be only too glad, when replying, to give any particulars available.

The Minister, I am sure, will admit that faith without good works is dead. And if that be so with regard to faith, I am sure he will admit that hope without good works is a wash-out entirely. The Minister has offered us, in his presentation of his Estimate to-day, the hope that things that are disturbing the employment situation to-day, the things that are reducing the number of persons in the recently-established industries will pass and that some industrialists who are being uprooted from industrial occupations in Europe will come our way and that more industrialists are likely to be added to our general fabric of industry during the next year. I think we have gone so far on the road to rationing the real things out of which our people are living at the present time and out of which they are going to live in the future that I am encouraged to address myself to this aspect of the situation here.

The Minister, among other members of the Front Bench, has for some time past been addressing himself to the importance of the agricultural industry as the real foundation of our national and economic life. That appreciation of the situation which Ministers are now reiterating is to be welcomed. It is more gracious than what they were saying about the agricultural industry a few years ago. But there is another appreciation that I would equally like to have reiterated by the Ministers, and that is that there is a basic group of manufacturing industries that are as important to a very considerable part of the people as agriculture itself. The Minister has addressed himself to the general situation here on a couple of occasions recently, and I think it would have been more helpful if he had addressed himself to the general situation here in introducing his Estimate, particularly at a critical period such as the present. In giving an article to a special issue of the London Times at the beginning of this month the Minister stated:

"The prosperity of the land for the future must be based largely on increased exports to Great Britain, which should result in increased imports therefrom. With agricultural prosperity, there will be plenty of room in the Irish market for both Irish and British goods."

The Minister appreciates that, increased agricultural production here being necessary for the economic improvement of our people, we must have increasing agricultural exports to the British markets, and that that will involve increasing imports from Great Britain here to some extent at any rate. But he goes further than that in this article at the beginning of the month, and pointed out that:

"Notwithstanding the increased industrialisation in recent years, the population continues to decline, and with 100,000 persons on the live register we have a grave problem of unemployment, which are indications of the magnitude of the task which still confronts the Irish Government in its efforts to save the race."

The Minister appreciates the portents which are at present there, and which show how critical the economic position is for our people at the present time. We had the advantage of having a further statement from the Minister yesterday on the opening of a confectionery establishment here in this city. He there stated that:

"The relative importance of industrial expansion in the future Ireland, its limits, its practicability, and the best methods of promoting it were matters of public controversy, and as such, therefore, he would not deal with them there. There could, however, be no controversy about their need for increasing the employment available to their people, not merely increasing the employment but the varieties of employment available."

The Minister takes up the attitude that the relative importance of industrial expansion here, its limits, its practicability and the best methods of promoting it are matters of public controversy. I think they ought not to be matters of public controversy. I invite the Minister to take back this Estimate, and to reconsider the position from the point of view that the importance of Irish manufacturing industry to the life of the people here is such that none of those things he mentions here—the importance of its expansion, the limits to which it can be expanded, its practicability and the best methods of promoting it—should be matters of public controversy, and that if there is anything in our economic or our political situation here that can be taken out of the realms of public controversy it is those. Even if it did not appear so clear that they could be taken out of the realms of public controversy, there are things in the present situation which demand that an attempt ought to be made to take them out of the realms of public controversy.

An agricultural commission has been set up to inquire into the position of the agricultural industry. I do not appreciate the form of commission which has been set up. The fact that a commission has been set up is bound to do some good, but as much good is not going to be done by the type of commission which has been set up as might otherwise be done. A commission has been set up to consider housing throughout the State, particularly in the City of Dublin. I do not consider that commission is of the kind which ought to have been set up. It has been set up with the appearance of the kind of commission that I should like to get set up to review the industrial side, but it is not that kind of thing. It would have been better if a smaller and more technical commission were set up to deal with agriculture. The committee that has been set up to deal with housing has the appearance of being a technical committee but it has been drawn from people who really, if they had been doing their work for the past six years, should have obviated the necessity for any such inquiry as they are asked to carry out at the present time. Because of that, and other reasons, I do not admire the type of committee which has been set up to deal with housing.

I think the Minister is clear in his mind—or at any rate he can be assisted to clear his mind—as to the type of expert committee that could and should be set up at the moment to review Irish manufacturing industry, and to mark down the definite industries which are to be regarded in the future as our first line manufacturing industries, the preservation of which is as important as the preservation of our agricultural industry itself. Just as the interests of agriculture have been prejudiced in the past, and endeavours made to minimise its importance in the minds both of the ordinary people themselves and of people engaged in political life by the kind of political address that there has been made to industry, in the same way our really foundational manufacturing industries have themselves been injured by the same type of thing. They have been injured by a kind of propagandist drive to develop and to boost from platforms and in the Press tertiary industries which, in many cases, are not only weak in themselves but are a danger and are doing damage to our primary industry.

The Minister has faced up to the fact that the population of this country is falling. He must be aware that the population of this country had ceased to fall in 1930; that by 1931 it had gone up by 5,500; that by 1932 it had further increased by 16,700; that by 1933 it had further increased by 12,000; that then the increase, due to the influences of the policy of the last six years was, you might say, wiped out, and that in fact during the last four years, between 1934 and 1938, the population of this country has begun to fall again, and has fallen to the extent of 44,000. It is argued that the reason why the population of this country ceased to fall in 1929-30 was that the world outside was not a very inviting place for emigrants to go. Well, outside of Great Britain to-day, I doubt if the world of 1939 is any more inviting for Irish emigrants than the world of 1929. It is a fact that Great Britain is attracting a fairly substantial number of our people—anything up to 25,000 or 27,000 a year. It is possible that that attraction is going to continue, and we cannot hold those people in this country unless there is a steady field in which they can get employment—employment of a kind which will suggest to them that they can hope to settle down in this country. that they can hope to become Irish citizens, with a hope of rearing a family here and living their lives here.

During the last four years, too, the number of male persons employed in agriculture has fallen by 43,000. We may hope, although it is a courageous hope, that the next four years, say, will see absorbed back into agricultural life 43,000 males to take their place. I do not know that the Minister would urge us to think that more than that will happen in agriculture during the next four years. Even if that does happen in agriculture in the next four years we have to provide for I suppose at least 25,000 or 30,000 additional persons going into employment of one kind or another, and they must find employment in our industrial side or in our commercial side. As the Minister said in his statement yesterday:—

"The next five or ten years would be the most critical period in the history of Ireland. In it they would repair the ravages of the past and build a firm foundation for future prosperity.... In that period industrial development would play a vital part."

Therefore I will not be charged with talking generalities. I am giving the official figures. So there is a decline in employment in agriculture. As things are, we hope that agriculture will re-absorb these people who have been rendered idle, but we could quote many reasons, and the opinions of many people, not on these benches, as indicating that agriculture may not re-absorb them. We have to face the industrial side of things in this way, and we have to try and find an employment outlet in commercial and industrial life for an additional 25,000 people every year. When the Minister says that the next five or ten years are going to be vital in the economic life of the country, and when the official Government organ subscribes to that opinion, what they are thinking of is the very same thing that every head of a family, say in the City of Dublin, is thinking of, that we must find a commercial and industrial outlet for the people of the country. Judging by the figures we have at the present time, we must find these outlets for from 25,000 to 30,000 young people every year. In these circumstances, we want to get the position set out in a clear and systematic way, that will remove the foundations upon which that work has to be built entirely from controversy of any kind, particularly controversy in this House. There is no possible way of doing it, in my opinion, except to set up an expert tribunal of a small kind, that systematically and thoroughly will take the industrial sphere and do for it quickly, concisely and clearly what was done for the general position of the country by the Banking Commission. If that is not done, then we are going to drift along in controversy. We are going to have the position misrepresented. We are going to have opportunities lost. We are going to have the Minister, driven by the fact that he is living in a controversial atmosphere, trying his hand at some more experiments that may be as unsuccessful as some of the experiments that have been tried in the past.

The Minister must know that the employment position has reached a point in which there is not very much sign of growth at the moment, that is employment in industrial life. He indicated to us in a reply given on the 22nd March, as reported in col. 2209 of the Official Reports, that in the Dublin and Dun Laoghaire Employment Exchange areas, the increase in the number of registered unemployed between February, 1937, and February, 1938, was caused by some small decreases in the number of persons employed in a large variety of industries, that the aggregate increase in registered unemployment between February, 1938, and February, 1939, was also due to a decrease in the numbers employed in a variety of interests, a considerable number of them being in the building industry. But there is one set of statistics— whether they have to be taken with a grain of salt, or otherwise modified, I do not know—and if he has been examining them, I think he must realise that they indicate that anything like a substantial increase in industrial employment has come to a stop. I take the contributions to National Health Insurance Fund as expressing full-time employment over the whole year. In 1931, the full-time employment contributions to the fund over the year came to £342,000. They increased by 1936 to £399,000, by 1937 to £415,000, and by 1938 to £416,000. There was practically no increase between the years 1937 and 1938. I take the National Health Insurance figures because they include people who came under the Unemployment Insurance scheme, as well as the other classes, and are the most comprehensive figures that we could get for the problem. They show a definite stoppage there. They show a rather peculiar thing. One would imagine that by the addition of the manufacturing industries that has taken place during the last four or five years, the rate of increase in the total number of persons employed under the National Health Insurance scheme would have increased at a much more rapid rate than, say, between 1926 and 1931. We find that the annual rate of increase between 1926 and 1931 was at the rate of 11,400 a year, and the rate of increase between 1931 and 1938, 10,571, or an annual rate of increase of about 800 less, although in the last year 19,000 were employed on relief schemes and on additional employment in the building industry, on account of the increased number of houses being erected. There were about 8,000 more persons employed on building in 1938 than in 1931. Nevertheless, the rate of increase in full-time employment, as indicated by the National Health Insurance Fund, shows that there was an increase at a lower rate between 1931 and 1938 than between 1926 and 1931, and we find in 1937-38 that there was a stop to that.

I ask the Minister to take Dublin alone, and to refer to the report made by the Juvenile Advisory Committee, where they give particulars of the situation, as seen from their point of view, for the last three years. The last year may be taken as typical. During the last 12 months they got applications from 3,154 boys and found work for 551. Of these, only 132 were persons being placed in their first situations. The number registered has faded from the sight of the committee at the end of the year, so that 324 were left on the live register. In the City and County of Dublin about 5,000 boys leave the primary schools annually. Here we have the Juvenile Advisory Committee reporting that 132 were placed in their first situations, and that the total number of vacancies filled was 551 out of 3,154 boys registered. Nothing is going to open the vision of these boys to what they may expect in industrial life, unless the real fundamental industries of the country are throughly reviewed, and, that done now by an expert tribunal such as I mentioned. Except we get marked out at the present time, what are the industries we are really going to safeguard, as being the roots of our manufacturing industrial life, then we are going to find these very roots weakened by the efforts the Minister will inevitably be driven to develop as tertiary industries. No doubt, the Minister will say that his Department can look after that. I answer, when he puts his finger on that point, that it makes it unsatisfactory for the Department to look after. When he admits that these things are not now public controversy.

He has the Prices Commission. The Prices Commission has not been a very satisfactory machinery for looking after the real things that its name would imply it was to look after, that is, to safeguard the people against an unnecessary rise of prices, particularly in the necessaries of life. Now it has been given another function, and that is to sit in judgment between the claims of British manufacturers to get a footing in the market here, and the claims of Irish manufacturers to be protected against British manufacturers getting their goods in here. I say that nobody in the position of the Prices Commission can satisfactorily deal with the problem that confronts them there, except in the light of a report such as I suggest could, and should, be got from a tribunal set up to do for the basis of our industrial life what the Agricultural Commission is set up to do for the basis of our agricultural life. I do not think the Minister can argue that the case I am making can be got away from or can be contoverted. I repeat that his Department, and he himself from the bench on which he sits, cannot satisfactorily and safely deal with this, once he admits that it is a matter of public controversy. The Prices Commission can very much more keenly say that their work is a matter of public controversy, because their work is subjected to more informed criticism, to the criticism of manufacturers, to the criticism of people who have the materials for making what they will call their case, than that to which the Minister will be subjected here, or in public, because he must know that his policy has had the effect of making a terrible lot of people in this country shut their mouths, and those people who realise what the situation is and who want to take a public part in improving that situation are very often denied information that will make their arguments effective.

On the employment side alone the Minister points out in his figures that salaries and wages in those industries which were covered by the census of production have been increased between 1931 and 1936 by a sum of £4,617,000, or from £14,041,000 in 1931 to £18,658,000 in 1936. That is the addition to the salaries and wages bill in those industries covered by the census of production, but our people have paid more in actual payments at the level of wholesale or import prices for bacon, butter and wheaten flour. On that bill alone they have paid an additional sum of £4,895,446 and that does not take into account the £868,000 which they have to pay through taxation to the sugar company because of the production of sugar. However, let us take the actual money paid out in the increased bill for bacon, butter and wheat, £4,839,000, between 1931 and 1937, together with the increase in salaries and wages of £4,617,000. Industrial production has only increased the salaries and wages by approximately the amount spent in addition on bacon, butter and wheaten flour, not to talk of anything in the way of taxation or the extra cost of many other articles, and not to talk of the fact that the agricultural wage bill has gone down.

From whatever aspect the Minister views the present situation—the stop in the increase in employment in industrial and commercial life, as indicated by the National Health Insurance figures, the relationship between the increase in salaries and wages, on the one hand, and the additional expenditure on the absolute necessaries of life, on the other, the fall in our agricultural industry and the possible chance of increasing in the next few years employment in agriculture, the increasing population in the country which is available for work if it is not forced to emigrate, the importance of the foundations of our first-line group of industrial manufacturing concerns and their importance to the future economic life of our people—he must realise that we want, urgently and systematically, a review of those industries which are going to be the foundations of our industrial life in the future, and that if we do not get this now, we are beginning the five or ten critical years of the nation's life in the dark. We are beginning them in the dark having shown what foolish things we were capable of doing in the industrial line, in some respects, during the last six years. The Minister can avoid starting these five or ten years in that position, and I move this motion in order to drive him to consider the necessity for doing it and in order to force him, if possible, by argument and entreaty to do it.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 28 Mar 1939

Vote 57—Industry and Commerce.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Mar 1939