Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 May 1939

Vol. 75 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Agriculture.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £396,133 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Talmhaidheachta agus seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin, maraon le hIldeontaisí-i-gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £396,133 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and of certain services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Those who have been examining this Estimate will have noticed that there are certain sub-heads under which there is an increase for this year, and also certain sub-heads on which there is a decrease. I should just like to mention those first, and give the reasons. The first sub-head under which there is a small increase is F (3)—that is the Veterinary College. The explanation of this is not very far to find. Part of that increase will be due in the ordinary way to the increments of salary which are due to the staff there, also to the creation of a resident overseer, and again to a sum of about £535 for the provision of laboratory and surgery equipment. That is due to an anticipated increase in the number of students for this coming year. I should like to say that the number of students in the college has been going up gradually. In 1935-36 it was 117; in the following year it was 128; in the next year it was 180; last year it was 202, and for this coming year it is estimated that there will be 250. As Deputies are aware, the college course there now extends to five years, which, of course, is partly responsible for the greater number. The next sub-head under which there is an increase is G (1)—Improvement of Milk Production. This is almost entirely due to a small increase in the staff, and again to the ordinary increments that will become due, and to the appointment of an additional cow-testing instructor. The next sub-head is G (3)—Fertilisers Scheme. Last year on a Supplementary Estimate the Dáil voted £40,000. This year the Estimate is £48,000, because it is thought that, as the scheme will extend to the whole year, the expenditure will be somewhat higher. It is put down at £48,000, which is an increase of £8,000. The next sub-head is G (4), which is a new sub-head—Improvement of Racing. This £10,000 has been provided for the development of racing in this country by getting the committees to give better stakes. It is provided in the scheme that any racing committee which adopts this scheme must give the same as they gave last year, and must give the grant in addition. There are also other conditions which should make it more attractive for owners of race-horses to race their horses here in future. The grant was allocated after consultation with the Turf Club and the National Hunt Steeplechase stewards. Roughly, it is divided in this way: £900 to each of the important larger race meetings; £400 to the medium-sized meetings, and £100 to each of the smaller meetings where they hold at least one day's racing per annum. The grant may be spent at their discretion on either flat or steeplechase race meetings.

The next sub-head on which there is an increase is sub-head H.—Grants to County Committees of Agriculture. There is an increase there of over £25,000. This grant is, first of all, based on an equivalent of a twopenny rate in each county. The equivalent of a twopenny rate would require about £73,000. Then there will be also an extra grant payable to the amount of any income raised by any county in excess of the twopenny rate. We know, of course, what the counties are raising for the county committees of agriculture in each case, and this grant to cover the extra rate in each county will amount to £17,873. In addition to that, there is a temporary special grant of £6,000. This grant of £6,000 is provided to help some of the poorer counties where they find it very difficult, if not impossible, to raise the necessary finances for the county committees' schemes, and it is distributed amongst the poorer counties, varying from £100 to £700 in each case.

There is an increase of £22,000 in the grant for lime. Last year, £8,000 was provided and this year we are asking for £30,000. This lime scheme has been in operation for some years. It was very fully availed of in each county, and it was thought well to extend the scheme this year. It is administered by the county committees. They invite quotations from the kiln owners in their own counties or outside, if necessary, and also invite applications from farmers. They accept tenders from kiln owners at the best price they can get, and direct the farmers who make application to get their lime from the people from whom they have accepted the tenders. It is very difficult to give any idea of what the subsidy amounts to, but, on the average, it amounts to about 30 per cent. of the price of the lime. In some cases, where lime can be got on good terms, it may be even more than that, and in some cases it may be less; but, on the average, it works out at about 30 per cent.

In sub-head M (4)—Loans and Grants for Agricultural Purposes—there is an increase of £6,800. There are a number of items under this sub-head. Some of them are increased and others are decreased, but the total is increased by £6,800. The first one is, loans for the purchase of stallions. There is a slight decrease there of £200. These loans are granted mainly in respect of sires purchased by the Department for resale at a reduced price to selected applicants residing in districts where there is urgent need for a good type of horse and where it is impossible to get a person to buy a horse without help. Under the scheme a purchaser pays a deposit of one-third of the price of the horse and gets a loan for the remainder which is paid back in five equal annual instalments. I might say that very often the amount charged to the purchaser by the Department is not as high as the Department paid for the horse. The next one is, loans for the purchase of premium bulls. There is an increase of £800 in that item, which is much the same as the scheme for stallions, except that the county committees of agriculture select the applicants and the bulls are purchased by the Department and passed on to the selected persons.

Mr. Dillon

Are these special term bulls?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. A deposit of one-third is paid, and the remainder is given on loan and is repaid in two equal annual instalments. The number of loans granted under this scheme has been going up. I should have said the same about the stallion scheme. They have gone up in the last four years from 252 to 317. The next is, loans for the purchase of hand sprayers. There is a decrease under that heading, because a great effort was made last year, by an increased Vote, in the districts in which spraying was not done as well as we thought it should be, to get people to purchase sprayers, and there was a good deal of success in getting sprayers distributed. It is thought that it will not be necessary, in fact, probably not possible, to get a similar number of sprayers distributed this year, and the Estimate is therefore reduced by £1,750. In this case the loan is repayable in two equal annual instalments, with interest at 5 per cent. per annum.

The next is, loans for the purchase of other agricultural implements. There has, of course, been a scheme in force for many years for the purchase of agricultural implements. Before the Agricultural Credit Corporation was set up, I think the limit was £50. When that Corporation was set up that limit was brought down to £30. Recently we have raised the limit again to £40. In this case, a deposit of one-fourth is made by the person wishing to purchase an agricultural implement, and the balance is paid in three equal annual instalments.

Mr. Hurley

What interest is charged?

Dr. Ryan

Five per cent. on all these loans. The number of loans granted varies slightly. It has been slightly on the increase in the last four years; it has gone up from 1,249 to 1,343, but I think the amount has roughly remained about the same—about £15,000. The next one is a new service—loans for the purchase and erection of poultry houses—£10,000. This scheme came into operation late last year and only £500 was provided. This year we are providing £10,000, and if the demand is more than is anticipated by this Vote I will have no hesitation in trying to get the Minister for Finance to agree to increase the amount, because it is a very good scheme if it is adopted. Loans will be given not exceeding four-fifths of the cost of the house and will be repayable in four equal annual instalments at 5 per cent. interest. They will be given, if at all possible, in respect of home-manufactured houses and a loan will not be given for an imported house if a home-manufactured house is available. They will be given for a house not costing less than £6, but the loan will not exceed £50. A copy of this scheme can be had by anybody interested.

For some years we have had a loan scheme for equipment for poultry rearing. This is only a small amount —£1,000—but it has been availed of to some extent. There are, I should say, also schemes under the county committees, but this scheme deals with incubators and Hoovers. Some county committees also deal with incubators, but the majority spend whatever money they have for the improvement of the poultry industry on the purchase of day-old chicks; so that the Department supplies the Hoovers and the county committee gives a grant for the purchase of the chicks.

Mr. Hughes

Is there any grant for a poultry house?

Dr. Ryan

No, only loans. Loans will not be granted for equipment costing less than £5, and in no case will a loan be granted in respect of equipment costing more than £40.

In this case also the loan must not exceed three-fourths of the cost of the equipment, and repayment of the loan must be made in three equal annual instalments with interest at 5 per cent. per annum. The next two items under this sub-head are two that have not been availed of to any great extent. One is for loans for the improvement of flax scutch mills, and the other is for loans and grants for the erection, equipment and repair of corn mills. In the case of the flax scutch mills, when we brought in the Flax Bill and had legislation passed dealing with flax, we introduced this scheme for the provision of loans for scutch mills because it was thought that a number of them were out of date, and it was thought advisable, if possible, to have them repaired and brought into proper order, but the difficulty appears to be that the majority of these mills are leased to tenants at very low rents, and neither the landlord nor the tenant feels it good business to spend any money on them. Accordingly, the loans have not been availed of to any great extent. With regard to the loans and grants for corn mills, a scheme was provided about four or five years ago, I think, which provided grants for part of the outlay on corn mills, whether for the building of a new mill or the repairing of an old one—grants in congested districts and loans outside congested districts. That scheme has not been availed of to any great extent either. With regard to that, I have met deputations from some of those corn mill owners on various occasions, and their plea was that the grinding of corn, whether oats or wheat, for farmers on commission was not a very good paying business and they could not afford to make any great outlay on the mills and have any prospect of getting the money back in their earnings afterwards. I am afraid that we are not likely to get very many applications under that scheme either.

The next remaining item under which there is increased expenditure is M (8)—the importation of seed wheat. I explained rather at length, in reply to Deputy Dillon, that in January last it was fairly generally known that the amount of winter wheat sown at that time was very much, below what was sown at the same time the previous year, and it looked as if, unless the weather changed very much, no more winter wheat could be sown and, consequently, we would require a very large amount of spring seed to make up the deficiency. None of the importers, however, was willing to bring in any more seed. As a matter of fact, they had at that time, on the whole, brought in at least as much spring seed as the previous year. Eventually we got two large importers to bring in 25,000 barrels of certain classes of spring seed, on the understanding that if this particular lot of wheat were not disposed of the difference between what they paid for the wheat and what they would get from the miller when the sowing season was over would be made good to them by the Department. I am not sure what this scheme may cost, but at any rate it will not be much more than £8,000, because the last report we got from these two importers was that their stocks were down to about 8,000 barrels, and as the limit of our guarantee is £1 per barrel, it will only cost £8,000 instead of the £25,000 that it might possibly have run to. In that connection, I may say, that there was some fine weather in February, during which a good deal of winter wheat was sown, and if we could have foreseen that, we would possibly have provided for a smaller amount of spring seed being brought in.

There are decreases under certain headings also. The first that is of any consequence is under the heading M. (5)—Improvement of the creamery industry. Under this heading we provided money each year for the organisation of the creamery industry; in other words, for the operations of the Dairy Disposals Board over creameries or organising new areas by building creameries in a virgin area. Last year, we provided about £30,000 to build creameries and provide travelling creameries and so on for the whole of the Kenmare-Cahirciveen-Castletownbere area. About £27,000 of that was spent, and the remainder is provided this year, and very little more than that is provided apart from the ordinary smaller items that may arise. There are for instance, a few smaller places like the islands off the South Coast, that may have to be organised this year and supplied with some means of getting rid of their milk, but the point is that we have no big scheme this year, like the Kenmare-Cahirciveen-Castletownbere scheme that we had last year, and therefore the amount is reduced by £27,000. As a matter of fact, I do not think we are likely to have another big scheme like that. It is most unlikely that there will be any other part of the country which can be organised on the same scale as we have had in the last couple of years.

Mr. Dillon

Is that economic expenditure?

Dr. Ryan

No. I said, when introducing that Vote, that I could not promise that it would be an economic proposition. I said that it was a very poor area and that we might lose a certain amount of money in it, but that at any rate we should take the chance because, if it should prove to be a success, it would make the greatest difference in that area. I think I can say that I am more optimistic now than I was when introducing the Vote, and I think it will probably succeed in part of the area, and perhaps in the whole of it.

Mr. Dillon

Is there a sinking fund attached to the scheme?

Dr. Ryan

The Dairy Disposals Board get £30,000, and they regard it as, if you like, a debenture, and they go on working on that and produce their balance sheet, and some time or other the idea would be to hand that area over to the farmers themselves. At that stage we may have to come to the Dáil and say that it is too much to charge the farmers, and that we want to write off a certain amount of it. The next item under which there is a decrease is M (7)—Expenses in connection with the provision of butter for winter requirements, etc. Last year we provided about £200,000 for expenses in connection with the storage of butter for our winter requirements. This year, there is even a token Vote there of £5. That is a matter into which I went fairly fully on the previous occasion. It is very hard at this stage to say whether it will be necessary to finance winter storage for next year out of the Vote or not. A great deal will depend on the export market during the months of June, July, August, and so on, and if these prices are such as to permit the export bounty fund to finance the winter storage, then, of course, the Vote for Agriculture would not be called upon; there would be merely a transfer from one to the other. It does depend, however, to a great extent on the prices on the foreign market in the months of June, July and August, when the principal part of our butter is put away for storage.

The next item is O (9)—Agricultural Products (Regulation of Export) Acts, 1933 and 1935. There is a decrease there of £405,000. That is entirely accounted for by the change in the system of exporting our butter and eggs to Germany. The last time the treaty was renewed with Germany, Germany undertook to buy their butter, eggs and cattle here. Previously the Minister for Agriculture bought the eggs and butter and exported them to Germany. Against that there would also be a reduction in No. 22 of the appropriations-in-aid, so that reduction will mean a reduction of exactly the same amount on both sides of the balance sheet. The same applies to sub-head O (9).

Mr. Dillon

May I interrupt the Minister to ask if there is adequate machinery to supervise the purchases by the Germans, to ensure that they do take the quantities that they have agreed to take?

Dr. Ryan

Oh, yes.

Mr. Dillon

Quite.

Dr. Ryan

With regard to sub-head O (11), regarding cattle exported to Germany, the same position arises, and consequently there is a reduction under that head of £318,000, because this year the Germans are buying their own cattle. Against that there is a corresponding reduction in the appropriations-in-aid under sub-head 23. These are the principal items in which there is an increase or a decrease.

Looking at the summary in the Estimate, it will be found that the net total vote for 1939-40 is £594,000, against a total last year of £833,000. The reduction of £239,000 is accounted for to a great extent by the three big items that I have mentioned, that is, the cessation of the trade of buying and selling eggs and butter to Germany, and of cattle to Germany, and also, under sub-head M (7), the amount provided for the winter storage of butter. Taking these three items together, and taking from them the appropriations-in-aid which come in as a result of our sales of butter, eggs and cattle to Germany, we are left with a difference, a net reduction of the Estimate, of about £250,000. I may mention just one other thing, namely, the reduction in the Vote for the reorganisation of the creamery industry. If these rather big items are taken out, there is not such a great difference in the Estimate this year as compared to last year.

I should just like to anticipate some inquiries which may be made. I am usually asked whether it is intended to introduce legislation on certain subjects. I think that it will be necessary to ask the Dáil to deal with three Bills from my Department before the summer recess. Firstly, a Bill amending the Price of Milk Act which was passed here some few years ago. This will deal principally with liquid milk in the Dublin and Cork areas, and it is being brought in in order to make some changes that have become necessary. Secondly, there is a Bill amending the Cereals Act, which was also mentioned here on a former occasion. This will deal in particular with the maize meal mixture, and it will be necessary to deal with it before the summer recess, because, if we are to profit by it, an order will have to be made before the end of August under the new Bill when it becomes an Act. Thirdly, a Bill will be introduced amending legislation under the Pigs and Bacon Act.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Dr. Ryan

About 12 months ago I said that there was a departmental committee examining this question. They took very much longer than I expected, and by the time they had finished the Prices Commission came along——

Mr. Dillon

And below the bottom out of your scheme.

Dr. Ryan

We are preparing legislation which will go, perhaps, some of the way to deal with the views of the departmental committee and of the Prices Commission. As well as that, I am informed that the Commission on Agriculture is at present considering recommendations on the pigs and bacon position. I do not want to be discourteous in any way to that body, but I think it would be impossible to wait for a report from that body if it is very long delayed. I think there are certain things that will have to be done before the summer recess, even if we have to come again later on when we hear what the Commission on Agriculture may recommend. Some kind of Bill, at any rate, will have to come before the Dáil before the summer recess.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Dr. Ryan

I do not know if I can say very much on the general question. I do believe that very much can be done apart from legislation, and Deputies will agree that very much must be done for agriculture in general. One of the matters which we have been considering in the Department is the matter of increased production. As Deputies are aware, the commission was set up practically with the terms of reference to consider increased production. That commission will take some years to go through all the matters it has to deal with. That is not to say that it will take the same amount of time before it produces anything, because I believe it is the intention to take some subjects and produce interim reports on the most urgent matters.

Mr. Hughes

Can the Minister promise that to the House?

Dr. Ryan

If they were to hold up their report until the conclusion of their investigations, some of us might not live to see it. We have been dealing with some of these matters already, perhaps in a small way; for instance, the fertiliser scheme, the loans for equipment, the provision of poultry houses, and so on. One of the big questions is that of credit, and on this question I would like certainly to have the opinion of the Commission on Agriculture, to see if we could do anything that would be useful to the farming community. That is one of the questions that will have to be considered in the near future, but the first question that has to be tackled is the Pigs and Bacon Act.

Mr. Dillon

Because that is the greatest scandal.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps so. As legislalation is likely to be introduced this session, they are doing their best to let me have their views before that legislation is brought in.

Another question to which I think it wise to draw attention is that of better marketing. I am very confident that, as a result of the passage of the Eggs Bill, we will come nearer to the price that we should get for our eggs on the British market; and, I think, even since we changed the classes according to weight, we have been doing better. It is very hard, of course, to compare—if you take, say, 15½ ozs. one year with 17 ozs. this year—the prices of Northern Ireland eggs and British eggs last year against the prices this year. Owing to the different weight it is impossible to make a strict comparison. But, on the whole, I think we ought to do better this year under the new system, and, with very much better control regarding every type of egg, we will get a much better reputation.

Mr. Dillon

Is it the Minister's experience that the quality of the eggs tendered at the ports for export is better?

Dr. Ryan

I think so.

Mr. Dillon

Are they cleaner?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, and they are improving. I understand that exporters are unanimous in saying that the inspection is getting more stringent every year. Still, the number of forfeitures is not increasing, so that we appear to be getting better eggs every year.

Then there are, if you like, perhaps less important things, but things which are very important for the people who are producing them. Take wool, for instance. We have been considering the marketing of wool, which I think is a thing for which we could do quite a lot to get a better price if we had some good system of marketing it.

Then there are some things in which other Deputies are very interested— the marketing of tomatoes, apples and onions. These things have been engaging out attention. I believe that if we could now give more attention to the marketing of these products and get a better price for the producer, that, in itself, of course, would have the very desirable effect of increasing production, too.

One other thing that I have been asked about. I do not know if I have been asked about it in this House lately, but I have certainly been asked about it from time to time—that is, about getting information to the farmers about certain things. There is no doubt about it that we have in this country, and we have at our disposal from other countries, quite a lot of information that would be useful, but I quite admit that we have not succeeded in getting that information across to the farmer as we should. It is a very difficult thing to do, and we have been considering various means of doing it.

I noticed that Deputy Dillon made the suggestion here to the Minister for Forestry to distribute handbills through the school children. That was one of the things that occurred to us. That was tried, I believe, on former occasions for the purpose of getting certain information to the farmers, but it was found that a good number of the children did not ever deliver those leaflets to their parents. Still, it may be worth trying, and we are considering various means of getting certain information to the farmers. But, as I say, a great deal of knowledge has been accumulating in the Department, both from our own research and experiments here, and from other countries. For instance, there is no farmer, I suppose, no matter how long he may be at farming, who will claim to know all about the breeding, management and feeding, and so on, of live stock. In fact, I think the farmers who know quite a lot about it are the ones that will be most anxious to get more information. The same thing is true about the care of crops and pastures, manuring, seeds, and so on. There is a great deal of that information that could be distributed if we had the means of getting it to the farmer. Those are some of the things we have been considering.

Mr. Gorey

Would the Minister consider the advisability of issuing agricultural text-books?

Dr. Ryan

That would not be altogether a matter for us. We would be in the hands, I think, of the educational authorities there. I think it is thought, in some circles, at any rate, that that is not the best form of education for children of 13 or 14 years of age. I have no views on that subject, I must say.

Then there are services on which we have spent quite a lot of money. For instance, there is cow-testing. A lot of money has been spent on that service and still no headway is being made. There are less than 5 per cent. of our cows under test. I think every one of those that are testing cows will admit that it is a splendid thing for the farmer to find out what kind his cows are.

Mr. Gorey

There are several things cutting across that.

Dr. Ryan

I would like to know what they are, because it would be useful to know them. I think there is no farmer that I ever spoke to who is testing his cows who did not tell me the same thing—that he was absolutely wrong about what were the best cows and what were the worst cows in his herd until he started testing them. Every farmer has the same experience. He thinks a cow is good and when she goes under test he finds out her real value. I think we would be prepared to adopt any scheme that was in any way practicable, even if it cost a little more, to get this cow-testing scheme more widespread amongst the farmers.

Then there is our seed-testing scheme, for instance. Much more use has been made of that scheme in the last five years. In fact, the use of it is on the increase every year and it is doing very good work. Merchants, in particular, have come to recognise the value of the Seed-testing Department much more than farmers but, of course, if all merchants were to use it the farmer need hardly use it at all, except those who are using their own seed.

There are various other services that could be mentioned, but I am only just mentioning a few. I am mentioning these things with regard to increased production, with regard to better marketing, and getting the knowledge that is available in the Department to the farmers, because I think that all these things are very important. Every Deputy, I am sure, would have sound views about those matters and I would be very glad indeed if we could get good advice on them.

Mr. Dillon

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. There is not much time, at this hour of night, to initiate a full debate on agricultural policy, but the Minister has referred to certain specific things which are not within the sphere of controversy, and we might, perhaps, occupy these few minutes in discussing them.

I entirely agree with the Minister that the cow-testing is a most valuable service. I appreciate his difficulties in persuading the farmers to undertake it. The astonishing thing is that it is one of the few subjects on which intelligent farmers frequently go wrong. A man finds it extremely difficult to persuade himself that he is not the best judge of his own cattle, and he is almost indignant at the idea of an inspector coming in and suggesting that he should hang up a document and weigh the milk once a week and fill in rows of figures. He laughs at the suggestion that that could produce any impression on the farmer's mind other than that which he already has. In fact, as the Minister says, the test frequently proves that a man is quite deceived about the quality of his cows. He often finds that the cow which he cherishes as one of the best—and what is more serious—the cow which he establishes as the foundation of his herd and the heifer calves of which he most carefully keeps—is, in fact, no great treasure at all, and that a cow which he is habitually sending to a fat bull and selling the progeny for fattening is, in fact, a very much better milker, and would be a very much more suitable foundation beast for his herd than the one which he has been cherishing.

I think two things contribute to the difficulty of the scheme. One is the natural prejudice, which simply must be got over by propaganda. I put it to the Minister that the way to deal with that is to take a county and to engage in really vigorous and well-drafted advertising to explain the advantages of cow-testing to that county. That campaign should be directed by a highly competent advertising expert. Many people do not realise that when you want to get over to the public something which is to yourself obviously true, it not infrequently requires the utmost skill of a practised and highly instructed advertising expert to present it to the particular class of people that you wish to reach in a way that will carry conviction. That is the first thing to do. I deliberately suggest a single county, because I want to check up after six months and 12 months, as to whether my advertising campaign is having effect or not. Therefore, I would like to compare the improvement in that county with the progress made over the country at large, in order to satisfy myself that the propaganda was going home.

Simultaneously with that, you can do either of two things. Either simplify the forms or else get an inspector to fill them up. I gave great offence to one of those gentlemen over there recently—it was Deputy Victory, my old friend Deputy Victory, the champion of the plain people—by saying that in rural Ireland we do not like filling forms. Deputy Victory worked himself into a lather of fury and said that devil a better form fillers were to be found in the world than the farmers of North Longford, that they could fill forms with any man. I do not know whether they could or not, but they do not like doing it, and I do not like doing it. Nobody who is busy with his work, whether it be on the land or elsewhere, wants to have his time occupied in filling forms. If your hands are wet and all you have is a pencil, the forms get smudged and dirty. There is every kind of annoyance which prevents a man filling the sort of form that civil servants require to build up records. I think that one of the greatest obstacles in the way of cow-testing arises from the fact that it is necessary to complete these forms. People do not want to do it. They have neither the time, the inclination nor the facilities for that kind of work. Therefore I put it to the Minister that unless he can persuade the inspector to break the back of that task he will find that it is a block in the way of promoting cow-testing. I am satisfied that if he would get the real meaning of cow-testing over to the people and help them in the filling up of forms, cow-testing would go ahead. I think if it once got established it would spread rapidly, as it certainly should, because it is an invaluable service to the farmers of the country.

I do not propose to discuss pigs tonight. I reserve that specially for to-morrow, when I propose to discuss not only pigs but those who use them as a means of robbing the people who produce them.

The Minister spoke of the difficulty of disseminating information that is available in the Department of Agriculture. I agree with him. I think we have in the Department some of the finest experts in the world, and some of the most excellent leaflets that could be drafted have been drafted by these officials of the Department. I have presented the bound volume which is to be had for a shilling to a number of my younger friends in the country, and I believe it is about the most valuable shilling's worth that money can buy here or elsewhere. I agree that the difficulty of persuading people to signify their readiness to receive these leaflets is immense. All these leaflets can be had for nothing simply by asking for them, and yet nobody will sit down to write a postcard and ask for them. We are up against the same problem, pace Deputy Victory, as in the case of filling forms. We have not the time to write for these leaflets. The only way you can get the information across to the people is by getting the leaflets into their hands, and the only way you can get it into their hands is by delivering them to them without waiting for a written request. If you send out the leaflets in special envelopes on one day into one particular district—I do not want to say anything disrespectful about rural postmen of this country, so I shall say no more than that I doubt if that is the most effective way to do it.

I understand that at each half-year the rent receipts go into the Land Commission either through a bank or directly. Now, the bound volume covers a very wide scope. Those who are familiar with it will remember that the index is divided into five divisions, under which the subjects are graded. Suppose we broke up the bound volume into five paper books, each covering one of these five divisions, and ask the Land Commission, when they are sending out the rent receipts, to enclose with the rent receipts one of these paper volumes? In that way we would get them into every house in the country. To-day people can get the leaflets by asking for them, but I am suggesting a way in which we can get these leaflets out of the cellars of the Department, where they lie now, into the hands of the people.

My proposal is not to bestow on the people something they have not already got. Our difficulty is that we have the stuff and we want them to take it, but they will not go to the trouble of asking for it. The book is a bulky volume which it would be impossible conveniently to send to each individual but, divided up into five paper pamphlets it would make comparatively little difference to the volume of the envelope which at present carries the rent receipts back to each farmer. There is a way in which, without any additional expenditure, you can get these leaflets out to the people within a reasonable time. I entirely agree with the Minister for Agriculture that this is a very important question from the community point of view quite apart from the individual interests of the family. Even if we could only get three persons out of every ten who receive the leaflets, to put into practice the precepts contained therein, the resulting increase in production and the resulting advantage to the community would more than repay us for the distribution of these leaflets on the lines I suggest.

The Minister referred to some special new crops such as apples and so forth. I am going to leave the apples to Deputy Gorey.

Mr. Gorey

I decline the honour.

Mr. Dillon

He knows a good deal about them and, if he has any suggestions to make to the Minister on that subject, I have no doubt the Minister will listen to them. I shall take a crop like onions. A lot of people are inclined to sneer at the Minister's efforts to induce farmers to grow onions. I think that is a mistake. I think these crops could be very valuable. But the Minister made the ghastly mistake that instead of surveying the country and finding out the districts where onions could be suitably grown, he simply told us all to grow onions. I, like the innocent creature I was, took the Minister's advice. I grew a most magnificent crop, but they practically all rotted.

Mr. Curran

That is because you are a bad farmer.

Mr. Dillon

No. As in the case of forestry, I knew nothing about it, but I furled my umbrella and I went to see experts in Dublin on this crop. They simply said: "The Minister did not know his business; he should never have advised anyone to grow onions in your part of the country. You can grow them, but you cannot save them unless you put up a hot-house. If you like to put up that hot-house, and to wrap the onions in cotton wool, and put them to bed with a nice fire, then you can save them; but in your area, owing to the nature of the land and the climate, it is a practical impossibility to save onions." On the other hand, one finds that in Kerry, in certain parts, where you have a sandy soil and a very low moisture content, you can grow onions and you can have a very profitable crop, but, in the vast majority of cases in this country, without undue expenditure, you cannot save the crop. You can do immense damage to a useful experiment of that kind by not having a survey of the whole country before you ask people to embark upon it. If such a survey had been carried out, the Minister could have said: "In certain areas onions are a crop which might profitably be experimented with, but I warn you that in other areas a survey has shown that the soil or the climate is not suitable for the production of onions." He could then have avoided involving anybody in serious losses. I press that view very strongly on the Minister.

In connection with another scheme, the production of the virus-free strawberry, the Minister made no such mistake. He clearly indicated that there were certain areas in the country where the virus-free strawberry could be cultivated but that there were other areas where it could not. As a result of that, a very valuable market was established for the plants of the Royal Sovereign strawberry, virus-free plants, which are being cultivated in County Mayo and in certain other parts of Ireland. It is interesting to know that the one place in Europe where virus-free plants can be secured is County Mayo.

Dr. Ryan

That is so.

Mr. Dillon

That is an astonishingly valuable discovery because, of course, these plants are very much sought after. They are absolutely unobtainable in other parts of Europe at the present time. We can now supply a virus-free plant to Continental growers which will remain virtually free from disease for three years. At the present time unless they can get such plants, many growers are debarred from growing strawberries. That was a sensible scheme. With these few complimentary remarks, qualified by criticism, I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Thursday, 4th May, at 3 p.m.