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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 1940

Vol. 79 No. 1

Supplementary and Additional Estimates. - Summer Time Regulations—Motion of Annulment of Emergency Powers (No. 22) Order, 1940.

I move the motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Hurley and myself:—

That the Emergency Powers (No. 22) Order, 1940, which was made on February 12th, 1940, and tabled on February 21st, 1940, be and is hereby annulled.

The authors of the fantastic device, which is now called summer time, made a case for it originally, and have apologised for it at frequent periods since, on quite different grounds from those which the Minister for Justice relied on when making his case for it last week. The innovation was originally described as a daylight saving measure, but in the reply which the Minister gave to a query on this matter last week he entirely shifted the case for it from the alleged saving of daylight to that of the convenience of railway time tables—a standard arrangement between railway transport systems in this country and in other countries. I think his answer was unconvincing. This craze for what was then described as daylight saving was originally heard of a good many years ago. Certain gentlemen in England, with a mission to bring about a reformation of a certain kind, began to bombard the newspapers with letters on the subject, and continued their campaign by way of issuing pamphlets. All this resulted, after some time, in the introduction of measures to secure the object they had in view, but these measures were rejected on more than one occasion by the British Parliament. Occasionally, in Great Britain as in other countries, freak legislation finds its way to the statute book. That happened in the case of what was then described as daylight saving.

At the present time we are discussing in this country, with a good deal of anxiety and interest, the question of Partition. I am old enough to remember a proposal being made by a private member in the British House of Commons along the lines that the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, ultimately took. The proposal was laughed to scorn at the time, but it resulted in certain legislation afterwards, and in much the same way this freak suggestion of daylight saving ultimately resulted in the passage into law of a Bill in the British House of Commons in 1916. This followed on the introduction of a similar proposal in Germany some time earlier. It is not without significance to remember that Germany has long ago discarded this method of daylight saving or what is known as summer time. Many of the other countries which adopted this system have either abolished it, altered it, or ignored it in one particular way or another.

The whole method of calculating time, arranging time, and standardising time in a certain way has an interesting history. I do not know that it would be necessary to go into that at length to-night, as, although it is not without interest, I think there is not very much occasion for doing so. It will be enough to say that, with the spread of the railway system, a certain national standard of time was introduced into many countries, and that the railways of England followed London time, while the Irish railways followed Dublin time. The same thing happened in other countries. This led to a certain amount of confusion, which was ultimately settled at a conference in Washington in 1883, when certain zones of time were arranged. By a somewhat peculiar coincidence, the fixing of the time zones at that conference resulted in a position of anomaly for this country, as the effect was that certain parts of this country—if that time zone had been strictly adhered to—would be one hour different to other parts—the West of Ireland would be one hour different to certain portions of Leinster, and so on. Of course, that ridiculous situation could not be permitted, and we had our own time standard permitted and sanctioned by that international conference. It is somewhat significant that that concession bestowed on us internationally was taken away from us by a one-clause measure passed in the British House of Commons in 1916, and coming into operation in October of that year.

This innovation—summer time—is largely experimental. Referring to the measure passed in this House in 1925, that measure was adopted because it was an innovation that possessed, superficially at least, a certain amount of attraction for a number of people. It was permitted to go through because it was just an interesting experiment that time and experience would be able to tell the value of.

I think we have had ample opportunity to examine the effects of this system since then and I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that the volume of protest against it has been growing steadily since and that it has grown to a very considerable volume in recent years. Whatever may be the result of the discussion here this evening, I believe that summer time as we know it is doomed and that we have only to wait a short time to see the end of it in one form or another. That cannot come too soon; hence I propose to ask the House to-night to annul the order for which the Minister has been responsible for giving effect to the measure for this year.

One objection to summer time is very well known. It comes from the rural population, who dislike the inconvenience of the system, and the difficulty that the system provides for the agriculturist generally—in regard to the milking of cattle and in regard to other aspects of agriculture in the country. In fact, in certain countries where it was introduced, as in the United States, the storm of protest from the agricultural section became so marked that it was withdrawn and a watereddown system of local time was provided for certain States, in substitution. Obviously, the system is—and will continue to be—extremely unpopular in rural areas, because of the dislocation and confusion that it results in and because of the direct loss which, to my mind, results in the agricultural industry.

Perhaps the most harmful effect of summer time is that on the children. It was stated somewhere recently that one section of the population of this country works extremely hard and that that section is the children. Anybody in a position to know what school children have to do at the present time, the amount of work they have to put in after school hours, understands that this is entirely true. There seems to be little doubt about the effect of this measure on the health of children. If there is any doubt, the authorities which have offered their opinion in that respect adduce very convincing proof of their contention. I have here some views on that particular aspect of the case, of which I ought to put the House in possession. One view is as recent as the 22nd February. In it, the Senior District Justice in this city criticises the effect of summer time very severely in his court. He criticises its effect on the children and says that "various ailments coupled with malnutrition marked the track of a bitter winter and a searching spring." He went on to emphasise the additional effect and resulting ill-health that summer time would cause in such connection. He did not begin to discover the adverse effect of summer time on the children this year, as in April, 1938, he was responsible for the following views expressed in the Dublin District Court on 11th April, 1938, when he said:—

"In this morning's papers I have read the report of the School Attendance Department of the City of Dublin for 1937. Upon the cause for non-attendance I wish to state that a year's experience as the Justice presiding in the Children's Court has convinced me that the opening of schools by Statute one hour and twenty-five minutes in advance of the sun's course, has been, and will be, a constant cause of decrease in the percentage of attendance and also a danger to the health, to the physical and nervous welfare of the children of this city.

"Children living in crowded and noisy streets, docked at the end of the day of their natural sleep, are by Statute forced to rise at hours unnatural to childhood.

"Reports from teachers, lay and clerical, are agreed that children harassed by cold and lack of sleep arrive at school numbed in body and mind, incapable of concentration until the mid-day sun brings back the circulation to their little bodies.

"The greatest good of the greatest number is the ground on which these Acts are defended. Are children then a commodity of which there is no supply; for which there is no demand? Are ‘the gay young things' that swing the racket and the club alone to be considered?"

I anticipate that the Minister will meet that portion of the argument against summer time with the explanation that there is no obligation on the school authorities to arrange hours of attendance at school in accordance with summer time, but in fact that does not make the position one bit easier. In the last week there has been an extremely confusing set of arrangements in operation in various parts of the country. The schools in one particular place observe summer time; the neighbouring schools observe winter time, or what is familiarly known locally as old time; and in other schools a standard is adopted which seeks to find a happy medium between summer time and old time. I have personal experience of the fact that children in the same household in a small town have two or three sets of time for their attendance at school, which makes things extremely unsatisfactory and confusing. There are some other authorities that can be quoted in this respect, and one is the County Medical Officer of Health for no less important a place than Cork City. I will quote from the Cork Examiner of February 26, 1940, which gives an account of a meeting to protest against the proposed introduction of summer time:—

"Dr. J.C. Saunders, City M.O.H., said he was completely and unequivocally in agreement with the purpose of the meeting. It was of the utmost importance that nothing should be done which would interfere in any way with the national rhythm of things, especially as experienced in the routine of the farming community. It was a very extraordinary thing that it should be necessary at all to have such a protest meeting held against the legal enactment which caused so much interference with the people's way of living. It would seem that we are living in an age when the minds of people seem to be obsessed with attempting to improve on the methods of nature. I see this a great deal in my own profession and we see it everywhere else.

"Dr. Saunders went on to refer to the adverse effects of summer time on children, and said apparently the origination of the Act overlooked the probable and possible effects on the child population.... Teachers had noticed that there was an inability on the part of the children to concentrate while in school and a reduced capacity to absorb the tuition they received, and increased effort was required from the teachers to impress their teaching. Children could not be got to bed during the operation of the Summer Time Act until 11 or 12 o'clock at night. They got insufficient sleep, and because of that there was greater vulnerability to contract disease. Summer time was bad enough in its original form, but it was worse still to bring it into force in February instead of April. There was a suggestion thrown out, he believed, further to prolong summer time by another hour during the year. ‘Any further extension would really be disastrous, in my opinion,' said Dr. Saunders. ‘Not only should we press for the abolition of the Summer Time Act, but they should also seek the restoration of their own standard Irish time.'"

That statement was strongly supported by Mr. T.P. Dowdall, T.D., in the course of a statement which followed that of Dr. Saunders. Another very prominent authority in this matter, a school medical inspector of the Kent County Health Department, expresses his views on summer time in the following terms:—

"The teaching staff are in the best position to judge and observe signs of lack of sleep in school children. Such signs are irritability, touchiness, peevishness, or fidgetiness, inattention or lack of interest in work, lethargy, sleepiness or other signs of fatigue. These are the most immediate signs of insufficient sleep which can be noticed before any actual interference with nutrition can be established."

A further article by a Lecturer on Diseases of Children, School of Medicine of the Royal College, Edinburgh, said:—

"We have been told over the wireless that one of the reasons for maintaining this so-called summer time is that our watches may be in unison with continental time! Why need we worry about continental time? We are not constantly going abroad. It looks as if it were difficult to find a real excuse for keeping this Act in force."

I think in those very words can be found a complete answer to the Minister's statement last week that this was merely a matter of convenience for the purpose of arranging some kind of standard accommodation between this country and other countries. Somebody has suggested that it would be inconvenient for tourists coming into this country if there were different arrangements in the matter of time. Of course, the answer to that is that people going from this country to Great Britain or countries abroad will have to meet with very frequent changes of time, which do not in the end result in any inconvenience, beyond just fitting oneself in with whatever time prevails in the particular country in which one is travelling. I do not think it is any exaggeration to describe this whole system as a sort of make-believe, a rather farcical make-believe, and I think in the end an unprofitable and unhealthy form of make-believe. It has been said that this whole world is a stage and that men and women are merely players, but if, in pursuance of that philosophy, we are to have a good deal of make-believe associated with life, it ought to take some other form. I think there is a very definite case to be made for the viewpoint that this is not alone unprofitable, as I have said, but definitely unhealthy, and a wrong to that section of our population which ought to be the subject of our most serious concern—our growing children. Their problems are serious enough at the present time. Their outlook for the future in this country is difficult enough without making the years of their childhood more difficult and more unhappy than the strenuous form of study they have to do makes them at the present time. The Minister's reply, of course, will include a statement that an inquiry into this matter is proposed. I do not think that what we require in regard to this matter is so much an inquiry as a decision. I think the facts are indisputable. I think no case can be made for the retention of this particular system, and that what we want is a decision. The Minister appears reluctant to make that decision. I do not know what is the purpose of retaining this system. I do not want to suggest that it is merely part of the step-by-step policy which is apparent in legislation generally in another part of the country. I do not believe it is. Whatever the reason is, the Minister seems reluctant to change it, and I ask the House to change it by annulling this Order.

I rise to second this motion. I think that Deputy Murphy has made an unanswerable case in favour of the motion, and I venture to suggest that the Minister would be put to the pin of his collar to answer some of the arguments that he put up to him. I am going to base my opposition principally on the effect that this order and the implementation of this order has on the children of the nation. There is no doubt about it that this summer time experiment in this country has a definite militating effect against the health of the growing children. I say that with all sincerity as a parent, and also as a teacher. I have noticed in my own children that, if their hours of rest are curtailed, during the following day there is a peevishness and an unsettled state of mind as a result. I have been forcibly struck with that position as a teacher. For some years past—and I experienced a time teaching before that order came into effect— there has been very noticeable towards the end of the school day that lassitude and weariness that is definitely associated amongst children with the want of proper rest. It is very easily understandable. According to Irish time, our own time, the children would be in bed at 10 o'clock and they would not have to get up before eight in the morning. That would give them about ten hours' rest. With the operation of this order, especially in the height of summer, the children are never in bed before 10.30 or 11 o'clock, and they have to get up again at 8 o'clock in the morning. In that way their rest is definitely curtailed. I am going to suggest very seriously to the Minister that that is going to have a very detrimental effect on the future of the children of this nation.

I would like the Minister to give a definite answer to this point: Is there to be another hour added on in April? Probably the Minister does not know. He wants to see what England will do in this and then we will probably do the same. We have done the same as England did in putting on this extra hour on 25th February. Surely, no case could be made for putting on an extra hour on the 25th February in this country because there was no gain in regard to daylight saving or any kind of composite measure for daylight purposes. What was gained in the evening was certainly lost in the morning and is so still. We have to have lights on in the morning in order to get ready for the day's business, even if we have an extra spell of twilight in the evening. So that, whatever case can be made for the city worker and for the people in offices and other people—as Deputy Murphy said, they gain in things such as sports, tennis and so on—it cannot be made at this stage. There might be reasons for its operation in England, but those reasons do not operate here. Surely it is not going to be advanced seriously that we have to keep time with England in order to meet the boats and trains and so on? At the present time the boat from Britain comes and goes when it likes, and sometimes does not come at all. I cannot see how that argument could be sustained.

Then, again, the argument was put forward that the managers of schools could arrange that they could keep the old time and not adopt the new time. In that case the position is more confused than ever. I have six schoolgoing children, three of whom are keeping old time and three are keeping new time, so that the position is worse than ever so far as my particular household is concerned.

The rural population of this country certainly object, and object very strongly, to the imposition of the Summer Time Order. They have objected previously to the imposition of the order so early in the year, and they certainly object very strenuously to the imposition of the order at this particular time. I do not want to go over the grounds which have been covered by Deputy Murphy, but I know that the medical officer of health in Cork City has very strongly expressed his views with regard to this Summer Time Order. After all, we have to take the opinion of an expert like our medical officer of health as being worth something. He has told us that in his opinion it is bound to have an injurious effect and is having an injurious effect on the health of the children. Experts like him, surely, should be considered, and not the rather foolish letters that one sees from time to time in some of the local papers, signed "A Mother" or "Father", and so on.

To support this case for the annulment of this order we have people who are experts in their jobs, people who know what they are talking about. It may be suggested that the people in the cities and the towns will be opposed to this annulment. I venture to suggest that it would benefit the people in the cities and the towns as well. Unfortunately, there are a good many people in the cities and towns who have too much time and too much leisure on their hands. Those people are not engaged in any occupation that would in any way interfere with their observance of the old time.

The greatest factor, to my mind, and the one that I think should weigh with this House, is the effect that the imposition of this order has on the health of the children. That is my strongest argument. I know that the people in my constituency, the rural population, farmers and agricultural workers, are definitely opposed to the imposition of this summer time. As Deputy Murphy rightly said, it is not a question of inquiry, it is a question of decision, and I am sure the Minister in his heart believes that the arguments put forward for the annulment of this order are the arguments that should operate, and that other considerations are very small things compared with the considerations for the community here at home, for our children, and for the rural population that we hear so much about and who are so much lauded; but when it comes to operating legislation and orders like this, there is no consideration for them. I wish to second this motion.

I have great pleasure in opposing this motion. There was never a contention put up, whether about vivisection or vaccination, treatment by serums or treatment by medicines, but one set could quote a group of eminent doctors and their opponents could quote another group of eminent doctors. If I bothered taking the letters in the Press for the past month I could get letters from doctors equally as well qualified as the doctors quoted by the proposer of the motion. I have got to bear in mind, when I am opposing this motion, that a very big proportion of my constituents live in crowded conditions in towns in my constituency, and that the bit of daylight saving which they get, which means health and recreation to them, is of great value to them. As regards the rural population, about whom we have heard so much just now, there is no compulsion whatever on them, unless they are going for a train or a bus, to observe summer time on their farms. We have heard of all the obstacles and all the difficulties. In my own county I can point out three parishes where summer time is observed in one parish, middle time or old time in another parish, and old Irish time in a third parish. Still life goes on and markets and fairs are held and have been held for 23 years without any great inconvenience.

Ballymore, Drumrainey and Castletowngeoghegan and all around that country. You know as well as I do that in some of these districts the clock is an hour and 25 minutes behind the official time in summer.

It is very handy for election meetings.

It is very handy for chapel meetings. We can get in half a dozen chapel meetings within a very short time, but that is not the real reason I am opposing this motion. The people down there go by the particular time that suits them. I should like to put it to Deputy Murphy and to the Labour Party generally, that it is not the tennis racquet people that are vitally concerned in this question of summer time. There are people like the workers in the mills in Athlone and in the carpet factory at Navan to whom an hour in the evening is a great benefit to enable them to get out in the sun. That is a very vital consideration for them. The man working out in the fields has the benefit of sunlight and fresh air throughout the day and summer time may not mean very much to him, but I would invite Deputy Murphy or Deputy Hurley to go into one of the small traders' shops about the city, not the big stores, and to note the stuffy conditions there, to observe the boys and girls, pale and unhealthy-looking, who work in these shops and they will then realise what a bit of the evening sun means to these workers. Very often these workers are not very well paid; their working conditions have often been referred to in this House by members of the Labour Party.

We have heard some references to conditions in Germany. In Germany the young people are at school at 7.30 in the morning. They have, it is true, abolished summer time, but they have not interfered with the observance of these early hours. They work much harder in the schools in Germany than is the practice in this country. In France summer time has become part of the national life, and it has not interfered with the French nation. Summer time may be a bit of an irritation to the rural population, but if it does not interfere with the carrying on of their daily operations or the earning of their livelihood, they should not try to ram their opinions down the necks of unfortunate people who are not blessed with the same healthy conditions in the places in which they work. When one comes to examine the type of people who are behind this agitation, one finds that they are very largely people of leisure who never had to work under the conditions under which unfortunate people have to work in our shops. These people of leisure never had to work like the girls or the lads one sees behind drapery counters. The individuals who have been waging this agitation have not taken into account the conditions under which these indoor workers, 34 per cent. of our population, have had to earn their living. Therefore my appeal to the Minister would be to oppose this motion. I have heard some references by Deputy Murphy to local option. I do not know much about conditions in America, but I have been told that there is such a system as local option in America, and if local option were granted in rural districts it is possible that these districts would not favour summer time. I understand that a commission has been set up by the Government to inquire into this whole matter and that local option may be a way out of the difficulty.

My appeal to the rural population would be this. They have one of the chief blessings of life in fresh air and healthy conditions. They are working in a healthy atmosphere and they ought to take into consideration the workers in the towns, many of whom are sons and daughters of small farmers who have to go into these towns to earn their living. I would ask people in the country to hesitate before they advocate the driving of these workers in the towns back into a condition of affairs where they cannot get out until after the sun has gone down, where they have to go to bed without a breath of fresh air, get up in the morning and go straight into the same racket again. It is all right to say "let the shops open an hour earlier." They will not open an hour earlier; they will go by the time generally observed. I do not pretend to be a very alert individual. I get up by summer time because I have to go by it, but if the clock were put back again, I would get up by old time. I think summer time was one of the wisest innovations we ever had in this country. I do not think that it has interfered in any way with the physique of our people. In fact, I think their physique has improved considerably over the last quarter of a century.

As I have already stated, I have seen three different times operating in three adjoining parishes in my constituency, and there has been no interference with the life of the community. Somebody has used the argument that the farmer's boy will be working in the fields, and he will see the road man leaving off work at 5 o'clock old time, while he will have to continue working until 6 o'clock. I saw cows being brought in for milking in the parish of Castletowngeoghegan, and some time later when I went into the parish of Ballymore I saw that they were only going for the cows there. Yet the people of these parishes lived under conditions of the utmost harmony, and there was no interference with their ordinary arrangements. This I think is all a paper battle. So much common sense has come out of Cork, that I am very much surprised at this nonsense.

Whatever might be said for the adoption of daylight saving, summer time, the advanced hour, or whatever you like to call it, in the normal summer period—and I, for one, would be prepared to argue against it even then—there is no justification whatsoever for its adoption in the month of February. I am wondering where is the justification for this order at all, or what section of the people asked for it. No one wants it in the rural parts and, as far as I could gather from conversations with people in the city, every second person held different views about it. That is exemplified by the letters that were quoted by Deputy Murphy and by Deputy Kennedy. I am not going to worry the House about the letters for and against this proposal. Deputies have seen them and as much could be said for one aspect of the case as the other. If I was asked candidly for my opinion, after my conversations with people, I would say that the majority are against this order. What is really troubling me is where the demand came from for its introduction in February. Even if there was a unanimous demand from the people in the cities for the adoption of daylight saving, for summer time and the advanced hour, I am not sure that any Government should adopt it, having regard to the fact that this is an agricultural country. The viewpoint of agriculturists, despite what Deputy Kennedy says—and he is the representative of an agricultural constituency —should be taken into account, and they should not be treated in a rough-shod manner in any legislation passed by this House. There are others, besides city people and dwellers in large towns, to be considered. Those of us who live in the country do not object at all to residents of the cities enjoying all the daylight they want. As Deputy Murphy pointed out, by the adoption of this order in February they are not going to enjoy any more daylight than they enjoy at present.

This thing cuts both ways. I do not believe that any person benefits to the extent of half an hour by the adoption of this order in February. If some people gain by summer time we are all very glad. We have no objection to people gaining all the advantages they can from the change. They can get up at four o'clock in the morning if they wish. I recommend this to residents in the city, that there is no period of the day more enjoyable than that from sunrise on a summer morning until breakfast time. The Minister laughs at that. That is the most delightful portion of the day, and I recommend all city residents to try it. Instead of going for a walk in the evening after work, when people are tired, I recommend them to get out in the morning at four o'clock when they are fresh. That is the time to enjoy the daylight. There is an old saying: "Get up early and get out with the lark." As far as those who live in the country are concerned, the farmer and farm worker, the lark is a lazy bird. We are being unfair to nature by this order. The thing is laughable. As the Americans say, the lark has nothing on us; if anything, we have it on the bird. If the lark in the summer time gets up a bit earlier than we do, he cannot brag about it. Remember in the South and South-west of Ireland we will, by this order, be one and three-quarter hours in advance of the sun. We are really getting up with the lark in summer time.

Deputy Kennedy taunted agriculturists with having made no case, and said that they should not grudge the extra hour to workers in, I suppose, Mullingar and other towns. As far as I know Mullingar and other country towns, I think the people do not bother their heads about it. In most country towns when the people from the country go in with milk in the mornings they find the shops shut and the people apparently not bothering about summer time. They are taking it easy. The other argument I heard about summer time is that it does not interfere with agriculturists as they can keep whatever time they like. If we are going to have law and order in this country the same conditions should apply all over. Do not make a law that one person can keep and another person must break, and thus create confusion. There is confusion at present. As Deputy Kennedy pointed out, in one parish there are two times kept. In Deputy Hurley's household there are two times, and in my household there are two times. I do not know where I am sometimes or what time it is. Everyone else is in the same position. Personally I never change my watch. I always have old time. Occasionally I get at a glance at some one else's clock with the new time, and even though I know the train starts an hour earlier than it should start, when I walk into a shop I find that I am sometimes late for a train. This thing creates more confusion in this country than any law or order that is published. There is no justification whatever for it.

While people are arguing from the English point of view to make the hour available for our people, it should be remembered that we have followed the English hard and fast, and have made the extra hour practically the normal time all the year round. Some years ago we took 25 minutes off our time, so that normally, without any summer time, those living in the south of Ireland are already 40 or 45 minutes in advance of the sun. We are now asked to go one better than the British, by adding another hour to the three-quarters that we had already. That is what we are really asked to do in the name of daylight saving, to go one better than the English. If I was asked my opinion on the matter I would say: "Go back to God's time!" Most Deputies are old enough to remember that when crossing to Holyhead one had to change the watch by 25 minutes and the same thing happened on the return journey. There was nothing about inconvenience then. No tourist from England or Northern Ireland spoke of the inconvenience, and the Government did not bleat about inconvenience, yet that is put forward now as an argument in favour of the adoption of summer time. From whatever view point it is looked at, whether the convenience of the majority of the people or of health I say that some gain might be got by rising at four o'clock on a summer's morning to take advantage of the cool and beautiful daylight hours before starting work, rather than trying to exercise a tired body and a tired mind at the tail of the evening, when youngsters should be going to bed.

Sometimes in the summer months when I am going home from the Dáil at 11 o'clock at night, I pass York Street and I see the place teeming with children that should be in bed hours earlier. Driving home at that hour after leaving the Dáil, one would naturally expect in the months of June or July that the children would be off the streets, and that the traffic lights might be disregarded, but, as things are, one has to exercise just as much caution at that hour of the night as in the day, because the children are still rambling around. Deputy Kennedy said that it was no argument if one's neighbour did not adopt summer time. Naturally workmen in the country want to get off early to meet their pals. Who blames them? That is not a demand for summer time but for the companionship of their fellow workers. I would wish to do the same if I was in their position. In a letter in to-day's newspaper a doctor made out what he considered to be a good case for summer time. He said that it was favoured by city residents and that, as far as he knew, no farmers had objected to it. He then quoted the case of a farmer who is dead against this order but whose 18 workmen were in favour of it. Accordingly the farmer had to be in favour of it. I know that several of my workmen are in favour of it, because road workers and men living near the towns are finished early and naturally the others want to get off at the same time. There is no justification for any differentiation. If we are going to have a law, make everybody abide by it. Let the Government enforce it solidly, or not pass it at all. If they enforce it generally, as laws ought to be enforced, and make it compulsory on everyone to adopt summer time, I warn the Minister that he will be up against a greater agitation than ever he thought he would be up against.

Deputy Murphy made one striking statement when he said that summer time was dead, no matter what the decision of the House might be. That statement is perfectly true, and if one thing has tended to kill summer time for all time, it is the adoption of the measure in the middle of winter. Nobody could justify this measure at any time of the year, but the fact that it has been adopted in February has aroused public opinion to such an extent that the system is certain to be quickly abolished. It has been said that the agricultural community, in seeking the abolition of summer time, are unjust and unfair to the urban population, and Deputy Kennedy suggested that it was not fair for the agricultural community to try to ram their opinions down the throats of the 30 per cent. of the people living in the towns. He spoke very sympathetically of the pale-faced drapers' assistants, but I should like to ask is it just or fair that 30 per cent. of the people, if there are 30 per cent. in favour of summer time, and I question that, should ram their views down the throats of 70 per cent.? I question very much whether 30 per cent. of the people are in favour of it.

At one time there might have been some justification for summer time, that is, when hours of work were long in the towns, and particularly in shops where shop assistants had to work from early in the morning to very late at night. At that time there might have been some justification for a reduction of an hour in the evening or night; but now, when hours are limited, and when there is ample opportunity for leisure provided—and provided by Acts of this House—for people engaged in offices and shops, there is absolutely no reason whatever why the people in the rural areas should be so seriously inconvenienced as they are by this measure. It has been said that this legislation does not affect the rural population at all, but everybody who lives in a rural area knows that it is the cause of endless confusion. We know, for example, that milk is collected according to summer time; we know that trains run according to this legal time; and we know that, in very many parishes, even the schools are running according to summer time. In face of that, it cannot be suggested for one moment that the rural population are not very seriously inconvenienced. To begin with, there is the confusion with regard to times. I listened to two people making an appointment, and one said: "I will meet you at 7 o'clock.""That is 8 o'clock," said the other. "No, it is 6 o'clock," said the first person. I think that is quite a common occurrence, and, in face of that, is it not perfectly certain that there is a considerable amount of confusion caused?

Serious also is the inconvenience and injustice inflicted upon children. Deputy Murphy described the children of this country as the hardest workers in the country, and there is no doubt whatever that children, particularly in rural areas, where they have to travel two or three miles to school, have to rise very early, even where the old time is observed; but where new time is observed you have a situation in which children are roused from sleep before they have obtained half their natural or normal rest. It may be said that children could be sent to bed at an early hour, but it must be remembered that, on farms, where people are working late, as they must in the summer months and during the harvest, it is impossible for children to go to sleep early, and the result is that when they are aroused early in the morning, a very serious hardship is inflicted upon them, and serious injury done to their health. That is something which the people should not tolerate for one moment. We have the same injustice and inconvenience caused with regard to fairs and markets, where they are held at an abnormally early hour.

We have to ask ourselves what advantage is anybody gaining by this. This was introduced as a daylight saving measure, but nobody can say what saving of daylight is secured by taking one hour off the evening and adding it to the morning. Surely daylight is as valuable in the morning as it is in the evening. It reminds one of the answer given to the woman who had bought blankets in a shop and who complained that they were too short and would not cover her feet. The shop people told her that the only thing she could do was to take six inches off the top and put them on the bottom of the blanket. That is exactly what the State is endeavouring to do by this legislation. This measure had its origin in an abnormal period, a period in which the Government of Britain and the people legislating in the House of Commons were suffering from nerves, from what are now known, I believe, as "jitters". They lost their heads completely and somebody suggested that it would be a good thing to introduce a measure of this kind, and, being confused and bewildered by the course of events during the last war, they were unable to think of anything better, and accepted the suggestion. The result was that this ridiculous measure has been enforced ever since and we have made ourselves even more ridiculous by accepting it.

We frequently claim to be a neutral country and a separate nation, and we try in various ways to assert our individual and separate nationality; yet, here is one way in which we can assert our separate nationality as a nation, and we refused to adopt it. We refused to adopt a time of our own which would be a purely Irish time and which would demonstrate to the world that this is a separate nation from Great Britain. We have the fact that, for many years, Irish time was 25 minutes behind English time and no inconvenience was caused to anybody. Having regard to the fact that this is an agricultural country; having regard to the fact that the entire agricultural community are against this summer time; and having regard to the fact that it is no advantage whatever to the urban population, we should have no hesitation in supporting this motion. As I say, the urban population derive no benefit, financially or from the health point of view, from the operation of this system, and these are the two most important considerations.

We all know that people in the towns do not retire one hour earlier at night as a result of summer time, although they have to rise one hour earlier in the morning. The townspeople, therefore, as a result of this are losing one hour's sleep and that is a serious consideration which should weigh with those who talk so much about the health of the people. In addition to that, owing to the high cost of living the earnings of the people in the towns are not sufficient to meet the demands on them at the present time, so that the additional hours of leisure are of very little advantage to them as they have not the money to travel or enjoy those hours of leisure. Therefore, summer time cannot be justified from any point of view.

Deputy Kennedy suggested that there might be local option in regard to this. I do not know how that suggestion would work. I suppose we would have trains starting from Kingsbridge by new time and perhaps at one of the stations on the way where the time was not changed they would have to wait for an hour and then would have to accelerate at another stage in order to get back to new time again. That would tend to make confusion more confounded. I am afraid that Deputy Kennedy's defence of this summer time legislation, so far from strengthening the case for its retention, has more or less doomed it to an earlier extinction than would otherwise happen. Therefore, I think no argument can be advanced in support of this so-called daylight saving. I think it is absolutely intolerable to be interfering with the natural time which is set by the sun. Common sense and reason would dictate that people should be guided by the natural law and not by laws made at a time when the British were suffering from an overdose of nerves.

If I were to sit quiet to-night listening to some of the speeches made and not to express what I know are the feelings of my constituents, I believe I would not be doing my duty to my constituents. Deputy Kennedy, for some reason known to himself, was pleased to refer to my constituency in support of his argument. I think I know that constituency fairly well and it is 80 per cent. agricultural. Perhaps if the blockade goes on it will be 90 per cent. agricultural. I regard summer time as a prohibition against agriculture. Therefore, we have compulsory tillage on the one hand and prohibition on the other. It is said that the farmers are not bound to go by summer time. I know the position of the farmers and the labourers in my constituency. When the shops are closed the agricultural labourers, even if you pay them overtime, cannot procure the things they want in the towns in the evening. There is, therefore, nothing but confusion.

Deputy Kennedy mentioned that in one particular parish there are three "times" observed. I was there on one occasion and was asked, "Can you tell me what time it is?" I said it was such-and-such a time, and was asked, "Is that new time, old time, or middle time?" I was not able to answer the question until I had thought over it. I do not want to have that kind of confusion. I know that in the rural areas feeling is growing against this summer time, and that protest meetings are being called where school teachers and managers are inclined to put it in force. Why should we go against the feeling of at least 70 per cent. of the people? It is stated that there is to be a commission appointed to inquire into the matter. I should like to know how that commission will be constituted. I do not want to have it doomed before it sits. There is always that suspicion here. Compulsory tillage is to be enforced, and I am supporting it in every part of my constituency. I want the people who are going into it wholeheartedly not to be hindered by the introduction of summer time. Things are vexatious enough for them at present without adding this.

Might I draw the attention of the House to the fact that this motion is to cancel an Emergency Order made by the Minister which brought in summer time in February instead of in April. Therefore, when we are discussing the question of summer time generally, we are not discussing the motion before the House. I think that this motion can be very easily disposed of. If the British did not bring in summer time in February this year, would we have brought it in? The British brought in summer time in February because they are at war and because of the black-out. If we were at war and a black-out were in force, then I presume it would be good business on our part to bring it in. But we are not at war. Why then bring it in? If the British were not at war would we have brought it in? If we would not, we ought to cancel the order now. That is the whole case in a nutshell, and I do not think there is anything to be added to or taken from it.

The Minister understands the feelings of the agricultural community but, apparently, is not very much impressed by them. The Minister, however, when making the order took good care not to interfere with another section of the community. He took good care not to put the public houses on an hour. In the country areas the public houses do not close by new time.

Mr. Boland

They do.

They do not.

Mr. Boland

That is not my fault. They are entitled to do it. They must not have wakened up to that in Millstreet.

Does the Minister mean that the public houses in country areas which formerly closed at 9 o'clock, old time, are now closing at 8 o'clock?

Mr. Boland

The only person who really dealt with the motion is Deputy MacEoin. All the other Deputies who spoke dealt with the question of summer time generally. When we came into office we found the Act of 1925 in operation and we continued it. We are aware, however, that there are arguments to be advanced on both sides. I am sorry that there were not more speakers on behalf of the other interests. Agriculture is undoubtedly entitled to every consideration and gets it. It has certainly got it here. I think that there are arguments to be heard on both sides of this question. We have decided on setting up a committee that will examine the working of this Summer Time Act, and after having heard evidence on both sides, advise the Government as to whether this Act should be continued or not.

Will it be a departmental committee.

Mr. Boland

No; it will be confined to outside interests; agricultural interests will be represented by two farmers, one member will represent organised labour, one member will represent business and there will be the chairman. I am not quite sure yet as to the personnel. We have asked certain people to sit and it will be a satisfactory committee. It will hear evidence for and against the continuance of summer time. I do not therefore propose to anticipate what the decision will be or to make any case for or against. I hold my own views. There are differences of opinion in every Party on the subject. When the inquiry is being held the point of view expressed by Deputy Kennedy will be advanced there too I expect, and probably it will not be found that there is no case for the continuance of summer time. How any Deputy could come to the conclusion that there is no case for it I do not understand. There is a case on both sides. Deputy Murphy said what was required was a decision and not an inquiry. Well, we do not feel in a position to give a decision until we have a very full inquiry into the working of the Act. It has been in operation now for a quarter of a century; through this committee we will get a fair and unbiased opinion.

One question was asked—if the British had not introduced this early summer time this year would we have done so. Certainly not. Someone suggested that it was slavishly following the British. It was not. Representations were made to us by business interests, railway companies, the Post Office and others that to change the time schedules followed by the British until the 1st April and then in April go back to the summer time would lead to endless confusion. If we were to abolish it altogether it would be a different matter; to make changes now for the sake of a few weeks would not be worth while. Had we changed now until the beginning of April we would have to change back again to meet the conditions in England. That is what would be happening in a few weeks' time. On balance, the arguments put forward in favour of a change now are not sufficiently strong. Whatever the findings of this committee may be, or whatever decision they may come to, we will continue on in April. The committee's decision would not affect summer time in any way for the rest of the year. There will be no change there from what we have now in the Act of Parliament. If there were a change, there would have to be changes in the matter of the Post Office and, as was pointed out to us, great difficulties would be created, difficulties that would be very confusing. Where-as if the Summer Time Act were dropped altogether it would be an entirely different thing. Personally I am not going to give my views on this matter at all. I have my own personal opinion. The Government has not come to a decision on it yet. We have the Act on the Statute Book, and it must take effect this year. Therefore, it is a question whether we are to change for the eight weeks or not.

That is the motion.

Mr. Boland

The question now is the annulling of the Emergency Powers Order. It would be impossible to do that now. It would be changing back for a few weeks and then making another change in April. The Government realise that there is a difference of opinion, and that there are arguments to be advanced on both sides. The committee to be set up will be fairly representative of all interests, and will make a full inquiry into the working of this Act. Every section and every body that has an interest in the matter will be able to come forward and give evidence before this inquiry.

Does the Minister expect a report from the committee before the 1st April?

Mr. Boland

No; I may be wrong, but I believe we will have any number of people coming up giving their views.

Does that mean that you will not implement the decision of the inquiry this year?

Mr. Boland

Yes.

Would the Minister make clear here now whether, in the event of the British adding another hour to the difference in April next, we would adopt the new British arrangement?

Mr. Boland

That is a mere rumour.

What will you do if they do add the other hour?

Mr. Boland

I do not know. If there is any indication of that, a different situation altogether will arise, and I am not now in a position to answer a hypothetical question. This is a matter for the Government as a whole. There are other Departments much more concerned with this question than the Department of Justice; why the matter was put into the hands of the Department of Justice I do not know.

They are the only people observing summer time.

Mr. Boland

There are the Departments of Industry and Commerce, the Post Office, Supplies, and Education. The one Department that is not affected by it at all is the Department of Justice. I cannot give any answer as to what we will do if another hour goes on. We will try to get this committee to get down to work as quickly as they can, and to give an expeditious report.

Will you act on their report?

Nothing that we have heard in the course of this debate in favour of summer time can carry any conviction with any reasonable person; nothing that has been said in favour of this ludicrous measure has caused me to alter my opinion. Deputy MacEoin suggests that the proposal before the House deals with the period between now and April when the summer time will be introduced. My motion is an effective way of dealing with the matter. It is dealing with the present position. A method of dealing with the situation can be found in April in accordance with the rules of the House. There have been quite a number of ridiculous arguments advanced in favour of this summer time. I think the sample we had from Deputy Kennedy is the most ludicrous. He talked about workers, tourists and others looking for a glimpse of the sun on February mornings when we had no sun. Now as to the attitude of the workers with regard to this matter, I think I might say that the Cork Workers' Council represents the organised workers of Cork, and they expressed their views in the course of the last week. In various shops and offices in that city the people I met gave expression to their views. The Minister for Justice is a very disarming opponent. It is very hard to be severe with him, but I think he realises to-night that in this matter he has a very bad case to defend.

Is the Deputy pressing this motion?

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 18; Níl, 52.

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Linehan, Timothy.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cole, John J.
  • Crowley, Fred Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies T. Murphy and Linehan; Níl: Deputies Smith and Brady.
Motion declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 6th March, at 3 p.m.
Barr
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