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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 1940

Vol. 79 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £47,150 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Nea-shrangach (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £47,150 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will some in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The amount of the Estimate for the Broadcasting Service for the financial year 1940-41 is £70,650. There is an increase of £1,347 on the provision for last year. The gross increase is £4,482, of which £1,722 is in respect of salaries, etc. Sub-head A is due mainly to additional bonus payments arising out of the higher cost-of-living figure and to the fact that provision is made this year for payment of the director's salary, which in recent years has been paid out of the Vote for the Department of External Affairs. In relation to the latter, I might explain that, when the Estimate was prepared several months ago, it was expected that the secondment of the present director would terminate early this year, and it was necessary to make specific provision in the Broadcasting Vote for the salary of his successor. No date for the change has, however, so far been fixed.

Programme costs (sub-head B) show an increase of £2,460, mainly due to additional provision for artists' fees and to increased payments in respect of performing right fees.

There is an increase of £300 under sub-head E in respect of expenditure on electric light, power, etc.

Against these increases there are offsetting reductions under other subheads, mainly a decrease of £2,960 under sub-head F, due to less provision for apparatus being necessary.

The revenue of the service for the financial year 1939-40 amounted to approximately £123,000. The total expenditure out of all Votes is estimated at £90,250. The revenue for the year thus shows a surplus over expenditure of approximately £32,750. Over the entire period since the Irish Broadcasting Service was established there has, however, been a considerable net deficit on the service.

Additional time up to a maximum of one hour a day was made available in October last for the broadcast of sponsored programmes confined to the advertisement of Irish enterprises. Two companies availed themselves at the outset of the opportunity to broadcast. Strong and unexpected opposition to the scheme, organised mainly by the Irish newspapers, who were apprehensive of possible adverse effects on their advertising revenue, manifested itself and, in consequence, I considered it advisable to give instructions that, pending further examination of the whole sponsored programme position by the Government, no further commitments should be entered into. Contracts which had already been arranged could not, of course, be disturbed, and they will accordingly operate for at least their normal period. Whether it will be possible to extend them will depend upon the Government's attitude upon the sponsored programme question generally. A decision may not be taken for some months to come.

Broadcasting revenue for the current year was originally estimated at £121,500, made up of £90,500 from licence fees and £31,000 from advertisements and miscellaneous receipts. This estimate assumed that the sponsored programmes of Irish Hospitals' Trust Limited would continue throughout the year and that the other advertisement programmes would operate until at least the 30th September next. The programmes of the Hospitals' Trust and of one of the other advertisers ceased, however, on the 31st March and, as a result, so far as can reasonably be judged at present, broadcasting revenue for the current year will amount to approximately £100,000, or £23,000 less than the receipts for last year.

Licence holders continue to increase in number at a satisfactory rate. There were 169,697 licences in existence at the end of last month, the increase in the 12 months being approximately 15,600. I regret, however, that special measures towards defaulters have still to be taken and that the Department is put to a good deal of unnecessary trouble and expense in this connection. There were no less than 730 prosecutions last year, convictions being obtained in practically all cases and penalties in a very large number. It is regrettable that threats of prosecution, and even actual proceedings should be necessary to compel owners of receiving sets to comply with a statutory obligation. I would make a special appeal to persons who are now in default in this matter to take out or renew their licences without further delay. By doing so, they will obviate material difficulty for the Department and needless expense for themselves.

The aim of the Broadcasting Service is to provide listeners with entertaining and cultural programmes of high standard and variety consistent with the resources available. Every possible effort is made in this direction and also to ensure that the programmes are competently presented. During the past few years important additions to staff and equipment have been made and, recently, dramatic control and amplifier apparatus of the most modern type has been installed. It has also been decided to acquire special receiving apparatus of powerful type which will enable musical programmes from European countries to be relayed. Last year various features of special interest were introduced, e.g., competitions for original radio plays in Irish and in English, a new verse competition for which more than 2,000 entries were received, and problem plays to be solved by listeners. Competition programmes, such as Question Time, in Irish and in English, are popular; and in last year's programmes the main aim of the Irish competitions was to demonstrate the phonetic beauty of the language and to train speakers in clear and correct pronunciation.

A public symphony concert was given at the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin, in October last. The concert, which was staged on a more ambitious scale than previously, was conducted by Sir Hamilton Harty and proved very successful. On account of the emergency it was not considered expedient to arrange for more than one such fixture in the 1939-40 season, but it is hoped that it may be feasible to give further symphony concerts in public during the coming year.

The Irish language is used to an increasing extent in the programmes. In the plays, competition-adjudications, discussions and talks, native speakers are engaged as far as possible. The nightly Irish News Bulletin is now given at a more suitable listening time —10 p.m.; and, in addition, a survey of the past week's news is broadcast in Irish every Sunday. The extended use of Irish music is being encouraged and new arrangements of the collected melodies are being added to the music library. The time, 10.30 p.m. to 11 p.m., each night is devoted mainly to the specially arranged broadcasts of Irish music. There is a scarcity of Irish music, orchestrated and arranged, and I hope that Irish composers will extend their efforts to meet the demands of the Irish Broadcasting Service.

The broadcasts to schools continue to develop and there are now about 750 schools taking these programmes as against 700 last year.

Serious interference with the transmissions from Athlone has been experienced for some time past but, as a result of representations through diplomatic channels, the administration in control of the station principally offending has changed the wavelength and the position has materially improved in the last few months. A degree of interference by another station or stations was, however, also being experienced until quite recently. The matter is being taken up by the responsible authorities. As the outcome of an international broadcasting conference held at Montreux, Switzerland, last year, a new medium wavelength was allocated to Athlone which would have resulted in a minimum of interference, but, unfortunately, owing to the international situation, the bringing into operation of the wavelength plan decided upon at the conference has had to be postponed.

Conditions arising out of the war have also seriously affected the transmissions from the short-wave station experimentally installed at Athlone last year. Prior to the outbreak of hostilities the transmissions were reasonably up to expectations, as was evidenced by numerous reports received from abroad, and technical data of a very useful character, which would be of considerable value in connection with the setting up of a high-power short-wave station, if such were decided on, were being obtained. The situation has, however, seriously altered, and reports lately obtained show that the short-wave programmes from Athlone are not now being received at all reliably in distant parts. The question of possible remedies for the existing unsatisfactory condition of affairs as regards the short-wave transmissions is receiving special attention. As, however, short-wave stations of belligerent, and even non-belligerent countries have latterly been working, for news or propaganda purposes, at full strength and on many wavelengths, using highly directional aerial systems for different parts of the world, it will be appreciated that a solution of the difficulties experienced at Athlone is not likely to be readily forthcoming in present circumstances.

With a view to ascertaining the tastes of listeners in regard to the various types of programmes broadcast, a questionnaire was issued in April last to about 2,700 licence holders in selected areas. As, however, only about 11 per cent. of those who were circularised replied, the opinions expressed were not particularly helpful. Judging, however, from numerous communications received daily from listeners, both in Ireland and outside, the programmes of Radio Eireann are regarded generally as a source of considerable interest and enjoyment and the various new features which are incorporated from time to time are much appreciated. Personally I regard the programmes, taken all round, as good and I may say that I am giving considerable attention to the service. There are, of course, weak spots, but this is inevitable in any broadcasting service. The afternoon sponsored programmes are a case in point. They seem to me at times to be framed on an unnecessarily poor level and while advertisers naturally desire to cater for the tastes, or what they believe to be the tastes, of those whose ears they are concerned to reach, I do think that, without going to the other extreme and becoming too highbrow, it should be possible to ensure a better standard throughout. The director and I have recently had discussions with some of the advertisers in the afternoon sponsored hour and as a result I think I can say that there is likely to be improvement in the near future. I can assure the House that it is my constant aim and aim of the directorate to raise the programmes all round to a high and yet popular standard consistent with our resources.

I want to ask the Minister a few questions with regard to the staff. I find that a sum of £31,000 is estimated for the current year in receipts from advertisements, etc. Would the Minister say if that sum corresponds to the amount that was received in former years from the Sweeps programme? I would also like to hear from him what the prospects are for the coming year with regard to the taking out of additional licences. As regards staff, I find there is a musical director, a production manager, a studio control officer, a talks officer, three announcers, and one news correspondent. That is, substantially, the body of staff that deals with the general public. Would the Minister say if all, or any, of these officers, before appointment, were subjected to tests with regard to their knowledge of Irish? Were certain members of this staff known to be experts in their knowledge of the Irish language prior to appointment, and, if so, are their duties confined to dealing with Irish programmes? Is the musical director an English scholar as well as an Irish scholar? I take it that the duties of the production manager are concerned with arranging the programmes that are broadcast each day. Is the talks officer equally proficient in the Irish and English languages, and is he as competent to give talks in Irish as he is in English? Are all, or any, of the three announcers expert Irish scholars? Generally, with regard to the personnel, does the Irish language get an equal opportunity with the English language? I take it that the duty of the news correspondent is to edit the general news that comes into the station. Is he equally competent in the Irish and the English languages, and is he qualified to give Irish news in the best form? I observe that "licence fees (cash)" are estimated to bring in £90,500. Does the word "cash" in brackets mean that a certain amount of the licences is not represented by cash receipts? These are the only matters I desire to refer to. I realise, of course, that the closing down of the Sweeps will mean a serious decrease on the revenue side. What does the Minister think the effect of that will be on the general income of the station?

I am sorry that I cannot agree with the Minister in his eulogy of Radio Eireann. Since the inception of wireless broadcasting in Ireland, the station authorities have, in my opinion, been labouring under difficulties that ought not to be there. What I mean by that is that there must be a Civil Service mentality hovering around the activities of the various officers of Radio Éireann. Nobody will dispute that the men behind the scenes are civil servants. I have no fault to find with civil servants in certain respects, but I have fault to find when it comes to a question of showmanship. I believe that behind wireless broadcasting we should have people who are adepts in showmanship, and we have not got that. I am speaking from experience. I have had contact with the station since its inception, and I think that what is really required is an inquiry into the whole position of radio in this country. Broadcasting first operated under the 1926 Act and, to my mind, the Act was out of date a year later. I do ask the Minister seriously to consider setting up such an inquiry.

There is one aspect in which I am particularly interested and that is the question of performing rights fees and copyright fees. I see that there is an increase of £2,460 in the sum allowed for daily programmes. I particularly appeal to the Minister in this connection to take into consideration the question of copyright fees or performing rights fees for playwrights' work. To use a colloquialism, playwrights have got a raw deal from the radio authorities here since the inception of the station. Recently I believe there has been some little improvement. But can anybody here believe that an author has got as little from the station as 10/6 as a performing rights fee for a play lasting half an hour? That is true. Some of them get a guinea, I believe; some recently got three guineas. I do not want to make comparisons between the service here and the B.B.C. I know it is a hard thing to do, because the revenue of the B.B.C. is enormous. But, when one considers that the B.B.C. can pay a fee of ten guineas for half an hour's performance, I think the very least that an author should receive from our native broadcasting service is three guineas. I put that down as a conservative figure, but I believe he is entitled to that.

We have a surplus of £32,750 on the service. Surely the Minister should see his way to allot more than £2,460 for programme fees during the coming year. As I said, I do not consider that the licence holders are getting a square deal from the station. Personally, I listen in regularly and I do not think programmes are at all up to standard. A suggestion was made some few years ago by people competent to speak on this matter that a proper advisory board should be set up. I put it to the Minister that he should keep that suggestion in mind and consider the setting up of such an advisory board. I am sorry to have to say these things, but that is what I feel about the broadcasting service, and I hope the Minister will bear my remarks in mind.

I rise to refer again to the complaints I am continuously receiving about the bad reception from Radio Eireann in the Wexford area. I drew the attention of the Minister to this matter in the last couple of months and he was good enough to send an inspector down there. I met the inspector when he came there and he did admit to me that in some parts of the town, at any rate, the reception was very bad. I have been speaking to the Minister since that and I think he suggested that the inspector said that it was bad wireless sets in a great many cases that were responsible for that. I do not think that there is any degree of truth in that, because English stations and German and other foreign stations can be got quite clearly, but Athlone is definitely bad; so bad indeed that a good number of people are talking about not paying their wireless licence fee this year. Nobody wants to encourage that, of course. I ask the Minister to try to have something done so far as reception in the Wexford area is concerned. I should like to have from him the report of the inspector who visited the area recently. On Sunday nights especially the reception is very bad. A great number of people down there are interested in Question Time which comes on about 8.15 p.m. and it is absolutely impossible at that particular time to hear anything from the Athlone Station except a continuous din. I drew the attention of the Minister and also of the inspector to the fact that Sunday night was the worst night of all for reception.

In connection with Question Time, so far as one can see the Dublin area has a monopoly. On a couple of occasions question time was held in places like Roscrea and Sligo. I should like to know from the Minister if it would be possible to have a Question Time held in different parts of the country, what representations have to be made with a view to having that done, and, if representations are made to him, will the Minister see that other areas get their opportunity so far as Question Time is concerned?

I also want to protest against the bad time kept by Radio Eireann. I have in mind one particular item on the programme in which I am rather interested on Sunday nights, namely, the talk by Seán O Ceallacháin on Gaelic sports throughout the country. Although that is advertised on the Radio News and in the Press to take place at 10.20 on Sunday nights, very often when the news is finished at 10.15 or 10.17 or 10.18 this gentleman starts off. I think that is very undesirable because a person may lose a lot in two or three minutes. I do not know whose fault that is, but it has happened repeatedly. It is an important feature of news. It is looked forward to by various people all over the country who are interested in Gaelic football and hurling, and I ask the Minister to see that when that particular feature is advertised for 10.20 p.m. it will take place at 10.20 and not before.

Some time ago I think representations were made to the Minister and the Government generally with a view to preventing advertising by Radio Eireann. I do not think there has been any extension of the advertising programme since, but the particular people who were advertising by radio are, I think, still permitted to do so. I submit that that is very unfair to newspapers and to the printing trade generally. We all know that since the war many printers have lost their employment for various reasons arising out of war conditions. For that reason I suggest to the Minister that that practice should be discontinued and that those people who served their apprenticeship as printers and who have been all their lives at that job should be permitted to earn their livelihood as hitherto.

Deputy McCann, to my mind, has made a very sensible suggestion, and that is, that there should be an advisory board or some kind of committee established with a view to going into this whole question of broadcasting. I am not at all satisfied that the people are getting proper programmes. I believe that people with right imagination can be found here to visualise what the country wants. The talent is there. I believe that good work could be done and that wireless could be used far more advantageously than is the case at present. I urge the Minister to adopt the suggestion of Deputy McCann.

I wish to join in what the last speaker said regarding the interference with reception in County Wexford. As far as my personal knowledge goes it is absolutely impossible, two nights out of three, to hear the Irish news at all. Some station immediately adjoining the Irish station keeps coming in every minute. There is not interference all the time but there are gaps in the programme. The Minister knows what I mean. That state of affairs has been going on for a considerable time. I agree with what Deputy McCann said. I pointed out on numerous occasions that I did not think licence holders were getting full value from the service. The broadcasting service here pays for itself and, in addition, shows a substantial profit which goes to the general revenue. My contention is that as licence holders maintain this service they are entitled to get back the profits in the way of more entertainment. In that way a number of musicians who are unemployed might be put into employment. For the last three years I have advocated that the policy should be changed in that respect, and that the surplus money should go towards providing better value. One example would be to increase the number of performers in the orchestra, which very often puts across the air fine programmes. By employing more musicians the reputation of this country abroad would be enhanced.

Another matter for comment is that the programme does not commence until 5.30 in the afternoon. We should have an earlier programme or, at least, one occupying more time. I wish to congratulate the Minister on certain improvements that have been carried out, notably the half-hour at night, to which he referred, during which Irish music is played. There was a time in the evenings when one would imagine one was listening to some American or English broadcasts. I am very glad to see that the Irish programme has been improved in that respect. It is greatly appreciated in country districts. I do not think anyone in particular was to blame, but there seemed to be an inclination to copy the English broadcasting system at night, as one could get nothing but dance music, each tune being practically the same. I consider it much better to have the Irish programmes we have now. I congratulate the Minister on the change. I do not think we get enough news at night. If there was more news given, that should not interfere in any way with the newspapers, because the evening papers are not available in some country districts. As far as I understand, the news we get in the country at night is merely a repetition of B.B.C. broadcasts. We do not get sufficient news about what is happening in this country. There are many happenings of great interest to people who live in the country, and if they could get news about them it would be an advantage. It would also take their minds off the international situation. I intended to say something about the use of the wireless for propaganda purposes, but the Minister will appreciate the reasons why I will not say anything about that now.

I consider that broadcasting could be used much more than it is. I should like to hear important lectures dealing with social and economic questions broadcast more frequently. When important lectures are announced people are anxious to hear them on the wireless. I seldom listen to the news, but I am inclined to think we do not get sufficient news, particularly about events in this country. I heard some comments about more Irish songs and stories and on a repetition of items to which some might take exception. Broadcasts of important lectures are items that people are looking for rather than for too much music. There has been much comment on the fact that such items are not broadcast more frequently.

I am intervening to pay a tribute to the lectures of Mr. D.L. Kelleher that were broadcast on behalf of the Irish Tourist Development Association. I am sure they attracted very considerable attention, not only at home but in other countries, having regard to the historical significance of the songs and traditions described by that very brilliant lecturer. I think we should have more of them. Tourism is an exceedingly important matter at present not only for the purpose of encouraging our people to visit places of interest in their own country but to attract tourists from other countries. The remarks of the last speaker remind me that lectures can be availed of to the benefit of our people. There is no doubt that an increasing number of agriculturists in remote districts have installed wireless sets, and it is of the greatest interest to them if lectures on modern methods are given, because our farmers cannot know too much about a calling that is becoming more and more important to them, so that they may make the best use of their land. If the Minister would direct the attention of the authorities at Radio Eireann to the importance of providing lectures by men who are, undoubtedly, competent to deal with their subjects, I believe we could not measure the economic advantages that would accrue to the country from the improved methods they advocate. I wish to pay my testimony to programmes that have been broadcast and the good work that has been done in that direction. While there may be a certain amount of reason for some of the criticism levelled at Radio Eireann, I believe it is doing useful work. We have only to ask ourselves what would we do without it to realise that existence would be a little more drab by its absence. I think this service is one that deserves well of the country.

If the work of the broadcasting station is not as good as other stations, there may be excellent reasons for that. It may be that the money available here is much less than is available in other countries. The specific complaint I have to make is with regard to the news programme. For some months back, the time devoted to the transmission of news is almost entirely taken up by a re-hash of the war news transmitted by the British Broadcasting Company. I do not object to our own station giving a summary of news similar to that of the British broadcasting station, but what I do object to is taking up the time almost entirely with the transmission of that news. There are numerous items of local interest which could be broadcast with advantage. It seems to me, too, that undue emphasis and stress is laid on, and too much time devoted to, statements made by Ministers from time to time, while too little attention is given to statements made by the Leaders of the Opposition Parties.

The Minister, the director and those associated with him are to be congratulated on the progress they are making, when one takes into consideration the restricted and limited facilities at their disposal in certain respects. I am sure the Minister will not suggest to the House or the country that the studio is in the most suitable place that could be discovered in the capital city. So far as I can ascertain—I believe it is true—the studio was established in a spare room in one of the most noisy centres of our city. It has been suggested to me that, when more money is available—money can be found for everything when the will is there to find it—a more suitable centre and a more suitable studio should be provided for the wireless broadcasting station.

Looking through this Estimate, one sees many discrepancies that are not found in other Estimates submitted from time to time for the consideration of the House. Has either the Minister or his predecessor given any consideration to suggestions repeatedly made for the setting up of an advisory committee, consisting of people who take a deep interest in this service and representing, so far as an advisory committee of that type can represent, active listeners? That suggestion is worthy of consideration, and I should like to know whether, so far, it has received any consideration. I want to make clear that I am not suggesting the setting up of an advisory committee consisting exclusively of civil servants.

The Estimate provides for a salary of £1,000, with an allowance, for the director. It is remarkable, when one studies the figures further down, that there is a difference between the salary of the director and that of the assistant director of £750 a year. I understand that the assistant director has a good knowledge of three or four languages and a very good knowledge of our native tongue. Is it to be taken from that that in the broadcasting station the Irish language is not getting the consideration which it is entitled to get? May I take it that the assistant director, in the absence of the director, is responsible for the supervision of the staff working in the station? If that is so, then one finds many other persons employed in the station with salaries far in excess of that of the assistant director. I am informed—I am not sure if I am correct—that the majority of the persons employed in the station are not employed principally for the doing of work in Irish. The assistant director is provided with a salary of £400. The principal clerk —a non-technical officer, I presume— has a salary of £800 and bonus. Am I to understand from that that the administrative side is regarded as more important than the technical side of this service?

Further down, there is provision for talks officers—one a male and the other a female. In both cases, these officers, who are nominally subject to the supervision of the assistant director, are on salaries higher than that of the assistant director. Does not that disclose a state of affairs which requires some explanation? Let it be understood that I am not making any objection to the salaries fixed for some of the officers I have mentioned but, in the organisation of a properly run commercial concern, discrepancies of that kind are not found. If the discrepancies are there, they should be explained and now is the time to give the explanation. I should like to encourage the Minister to go ahead on the most progressive lines possible. Seeing that there is a good surplus available, that this is, in fact, a profit-making Department, if there is anything wrong in the matters to which I have drawn attention regarding staffing and payment of the staff, there is obviously money available to put these things right.

Deputy McMenamin asked how many of the staff can speak Irish. The general policy is, as far as possible, to get the most competent Irish speakers but sometimes it is difficult to combine other qualifications with that qualification. You may have people who are particularly good at music, for instance, but whose knowledge of Irish may not be up to the standard. Sometimes, knowledge of Irish has to be subordinated to technical qualifications but I can assure the House that, wherever possible, we pay due attention to the importance of a knowledge of the Irish language. We also keep in touch with those who are interested in forwarding the Irish language cause. Only recently we received a deputation from the Gaelic League. We discussed all these matters and we gave them ample opportunity of keeping in touch with us, so that we may be able to co-operate in all matters of Gaelic culture.

Deputy McMenamin asked about the licence fees. All the money that comes in by way of licence fees is indicated here. I do not exactly know why the word "cash" should be put in. Perhaps it is simply to indicate that there is no such thing as credit given where licence fees are concerned. Deputy McCann mentioned the question of fees. At one time a fee of 10/6 was paid, and I expect that that sum so burned its way into the mind of the Deputy that he has not forgotten it. I may say that the fees have been improved considerably. One of the first things that happened after I came into office was that we arranged to meet representatives of the authors, and the director and myself had a good talk with them, and arrangements were made by which the fees were considerably increased. They are now sufficient to attract quite good material. I think on one side the material is lacking. On the dramatic side it is very difficult to get good material.

Deputy McCann and Corish, and also Deputy Davin, mentioned the advisory committee. That is a matter which I intend to go into more closely. There was an advisory committee formerly and it was not found to be altogether satisfactory. A good deal of radio work is experimental. When you read about the continual criticisms of the B.B.C., it would appear that there is another system developing there. That new system is called a research system and it may be an improvement on existing methods.

A rose by any other name?

Provided it is a rose.

There might be a thorn there, too.

If people, when writing in criticisms, would only make suggestions to the station, it would be most helpful. An advisory committee might easily be a very unsuitable thing, because people come along with special interests and special points of view and these might only interfere with the proper direction of the station. If there was some system by which suggestions would be made, the station would appreciate it. However, it is a matter that I will look into and I will see what can be done about it.

I was surprised when Deputy Corish mentioned that the Wexford reception is still bad. We sent down an inspector to inquire into the matter and he got the impression that things had improved and that some of the defects in reception were due rather to the condition of the sets than to the station.

I suggest that the sets were rebelling against the Irish station.

I do not like to make any suggestions, but there does seem to be something of a mystery about Wexford. I will go into the whole question again to see if we can bring about some remedy. I think it was Deputy Corish who raised the question about advertising. My experience in regard to advertising is a somewhat curious one. We discovered that some of the people who were most loud in denouncing advertising at one period are now the people who are pressing me most strongly to adopt advertising. There seems to be an attitude held that advertising does not interfere with the newspapers at all. I wish the people who are interested in this matter would get together and find some way in which to settle their difficulties. It would make it easier for the Government to arrive at a decision. I am not very enthusiastic about radio advertising, but I see that it has a certain purpose. Possibly, with the increasing shortage of paper for the newspapers, there may be a stronger demand for advertising.

Have the director and his staff any control over the programmes submitted or used by the advertising people? Some of the programmes are not very nice.

I made certain references to that in my opening statement.

Unfortunately, I was not here.

I said we had taken this matter up with the advertisers and they seemed to have a curious angle on the thing. Some of them seemed to think that the cheapest and lowest type of programme sold their wares best. They are entirely wrong in that.

Let us have anything but crooning and jazz; we have had too much of that.

We have tried to insist, under our contracts, on an improvement of the programmes and we have secured an undertaking from the advertisers that the programmes will be improved. Within the last month or so I understand that the programmes have improved considerably. I would be glad to know from Deputy Corish and others whether they have noticed the improvement.

Have Dr. Kiernan and his staff a right to intervene during the period of the contract?

It is an intricate contract.

I am sure they would be prepared to intervene if they had the power.

They have the power, but the difficulties hitherto have been very great. Possibly, with the pressure the director has brought to bear on the advertisers, a very considerable improvement will be made.

I am sure he would not let anything through that might be considered objectionable.

Any suggestion like that made by Deputy Hickey will be noted.

There is one point I would like the Minister to deal with and that is in regard to Question Time.

There was some reference made to the giving out of sports results. That is a matter of detail which can be watched in future.

It is an important matter.

If the Deputy had written to the station immediately, making a complaint, it would have been promptly looked into.

It is a bad thing to advertise an item for 10.20 and to commence it at 10.15, the moment the news was over. It is a very important feature and if one is not listening from the beginning it is not very satisfactory.

I am sure that does not often occur. The matter will be investigated.

The Minister should have it more than investigated; I hope he will have the matter made right.

If the Deputy had been listening in to the news he would have heard all the sports results.

Sometimes one cannot do that. What about Question Time?

Deputy Davin referred to our station premises. We have bought new premises in Exchequer Street and we will press for their early reconstruction.

Is not that a fairly noisy centre?

I should say the acoustics are not so good.

The whole building would be rebuilt.

It is too near the Castle in case anything happened again.

He also raised the question of the assistant director. It is undesirable to discuss individuals on the Estimates; I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that. The functions of the assistant director do not include any supervision. Both the director and the deputy director are principal clerks. The second principal clerk is a deputy director, the director who is in control. That is the explanation of the difference in salary.

I am sure the Minister would not object to my asking another question—is there anything in the contention made in some quarters that people with a competent knowledge of the Irish language are not getting as good salaries as those who have not a competent knowledge of Irish? There is the position of the woman organiser. Both appear to be badly paid compared with other people holding subordinate positions.

I do not think there is anything to be said further on that matter. It is very carefully looked after. The assistant director is actually the Gaelic production officer. These are his functions. In fact I am perfectly sure that the very first consideration in the minds of the director and his staff is the Irish language and Irish culture. These get more attention than anything else.

Well, they might be on the same footing as regards salaries as those holding subordinate positions.

I do not want to discuss individuals. It is undesirable.

I will say no more on the matter. I merely put the question and I ask the Minister to look into that aspect of the Estimate.

Very well; we will leave it at that. Deputy Esmonde mentioned about interference with the wavelengths. I have dealt with that. There are difficulties in having earlier programmes. There are programmes earlier in the day for schools, and advertising programmes follow. The matter of expense has to be taken into consideration. If you increase the number of hours there is a considerable amount of expense on each hour that you add to the broadcasting. I do not think we should venture beyond what we are doing at the moment. I quite agree with Deputy Esmonde that the more money we have the better. The reason our programmes are not up to what they ought to be is simply because we are not able to have a larger orchestra. A good orchestra costs a considerable amount of money. We want to get more orchestrated Irish music. The material at the disposal of musicians is immensely rich. We only wish we could give a great deal more first-class Irish music and we would give it if we had it too. The Deputy also asked for more local news. The organisation of a news service is very expensive. That would mean that we should have correspondents all over the country, and it means the provision of a staff needed to run a newspaper. That is not possible under present conditions. At the same time if we can give more Irish news we will. I do not think our news service at present is bad, nor is it fair to say that we are simply giving the news from English stations. It has been remarked elsewhere that the Irish news is much wider in its scope than the news coming from England.

Is there any reason why the news should not be given at 11 o'clock instead of 10 o'clock, now that we have summer time?

I understand that the curtailment of the local news is due to interference by the censor.

That does not cut down much news, only news that you should not hear.

Party news?

I recently happened to see a graph made by people who go in for broadcasting research and it is remarkable that at 11 o'clock the graph drops. The number of people listening-in after 11 o'clock is very small. There is a general practice of going to bed at 11 o'clock, and we find it is really better to give the news at 10 o'clock.

There are not many people listening in at 10 o'clock summer time.

Question Time is one of the most popular items on the radio. It will end in a few weeks, but it will be resumed again in the autumn. Representations from local people for Question Time will be sympathetically considered. All representations so far received have been actually accepted. Special attention will be given to broadcasts of social questions and to discussions on the unemployment problem. The Statistical Inquiry Society will broadcast on this matter in the course of this month. I think I have dealt with nearly every question put to me. It occurs to me that Deputies should not be afraid of sending their questions to the director from time to time. The Minister should not interfere very much with the director, His broad lines of policy are laid down by the Minister. A good deal should be left to the director. It is helpful to have encouraging words from listeners from time to time or even criticisms of what they find wrong. It is a help to know how the people are receiving the broadcasts.

Vote put and agreed to.
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