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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jan 1941

Vol. 81 No. 9

Essential Supplies—Motion.

I move:—

That the Dáil is of opinion that the Government should define the probable future situation in regard to essential supplies and indicate what steps are contemplated for their equitable distribution in the event of acute shortage developing.

The reason for requesting a meeting of the Dáil to consider the resolution that is on the Order Paper may be found in the various statements, broadcasts or letters of Ministers during the last three or four weeks and, in addition to that, in the situation that has been in existence since the last week of December in regard to the supply of petrol. The first real shock that the people got in connection with the food situation was the letter from the Minister for Supplies which was circulated to most members of the Dáil, even to those who represent borough constituencies. If the situation as described in that communication were anything nearly as serious as the Minister seemed to infer it was obviously the duty of somebody to assemble the Parliament here with a view to allaying, if it were possible to allay, the public uneasiness that had been occasioned, to see what steps had been taken to deal with the situation, to review the events of the last few months, and to learn how far it would be possible to prevent a similar situation occurring in future, and generally to deal with the situation in such a manner as would best meet the national requirements. There is an impression abroad that the Defence Conference, as it is called, deals with practically everything in this country at the present moment, knows everything, settles everything, directs everything, and has a policy to put into operation at a given moment for practically everything. There is no truth whatever in that statement. The Defence Conference does not deal with anything except defence matters. It does not deal with the policy of the Defence Department; it does not deal with the details of the defence position, and it is unwise for people to assume that the Defence Conference knows all about this present situation, or, as a matter of fact, that anybody outside of the Government itself knows exactly what the situation is.

For the better part of some 12 months now the public has been informed, principally by the Minister for Supplies, that the situation with regard to supplies of essential commodities, such as wheat, petrol, tea and sugar, was quite comfortable. With the exception of a single commodity amongst those three or four, looking over the imports for the last few years and comparing them with the imports for last year, no great reduction of imports is noticeable in the returns for last year. There is in the case of petrol. In the case of petrol the supplies would have been something like threequarters what they had been in previous years. I take it that, in connection with this discussion, the Ministry has no objection to having every single one of those matters dealt with now fully. If there be an objection to having them discussed fully and completely and candidly before the public, it is better for us to hear it now. I take it then, in the absence of an objection, that we can go on with the discussion? There is no particular reason why we should not?

I think that in all those discussions a certain amount of care will have to be exercised—those who have held office before can easily understand the position at present— but beyond that there is no special reason.

One of the principal reasons for putting down this motion was to allay uneasiness which has been caused during the last month or more. We have no information as to whether the Ministry is aware of the fact that, in quite a number of shops in the city and other places throughout the country, there has been a shortage of tea. People have had difficulty in getting tea. The petrol situation, coming so suddenly as it did, has given rise to questions regarding the possibility of shortages in other directions. Unless there is something wrong with regard to the imports to which I have already directed attention, the only one of those commodities which shows a considerable reduction on the imports of previous years is petrol, and in connection with the petrol shortage it is, in my view, fair that we should express here the views which have been put to us by persons outside regarding the manner in which the public has been treated in connection with it. The complaint is that, first of all, the situation was suddenly thrust upon the public without any previous intimation that there was a shortage. Quite a number of people had left for home at Christmas, bringing their cars with them, and found that it was impossible for them to procure petrol. It seems almost incredible that a situation of that sort could have been arising without some person in authority being informed as to the precise moment at which there would have been a shortage. Secondly, there is the situation that has arisen through persons being invited or exhorted to take out their road licences for a year, and being informed that if they did so they would receive generous consideration in the matter of petrol coupons. There is a serious complaint from one Dublin business firm in connection with that matter.

There is then the question of the consideration of the special claims of persons whose existence or livelihood depends entirely upon their being supplied with petrol. The most outstanding case is that of the taxi-men, and another body affected very acutely by this petrol shortage are those who are in the undertaking business. We find it difficult to understand how the Ministry should have learned so shortly after Christmas about there being a shortage of petrol. We learn with satisfaction that, by reason of a tanker having arrived, that situation has eased to some extent, but, as far as I have been able to discover, very little public attention has been directed to the fact that the situation has eased. We think that, in connection with the petrol business, the Ministry ought to have been more alert, ought to have been able to foresee this particular shortage that has taken place, and ought to have taken steps at an earlier date to relieve the situation and to prevent dismissals and other disturbances in connection with employment which have arisen out of that situation. There would be a disposition not only on the part of members of the Dáil, but on the part of the public also to co-operate in any measures that would be taken based upon such considerations as affording, as far as our supplies went, constant employment to those whose livelihood depended upon the supply of petrol, upon limiting the quantities if not entirely restricting the quantities supplied to those who required petrol only for pleasure or some other amenity of that sort, naturally keeping full supplies for such industrial concerns as would require petrol for the purpose of their business. Of course the whole basis of the consideration should be that in the case of tractors for tillage there should not be any restriction of the quantity available.

I will now come to the wheat situation. The Minister's letter, as I have said, was the first shock that people got in connection with the possibility of the institution, first of all, of a bread ration and, secondly, a reduction of the quantity available for each individual in the State. Some two or three years ago we were informed in the House that the Minister had made arrangements with the millers to stock very much more wheat than they were accustomed to and that in order to aid them, and to ensure that they would not be at any loss, they were allowed to charge 1/- a sack over and above the normal price. If that extra 1/- a sack were based upon the normal consumption in the State, it would amount approximately to £150,000 a year, as the consumption is in the neighbourhood of 3,000,000 sacks.

I have here the returns, in tons, of the wheat imports from the year 1936 to date. Leaving out the cwts., in the year 1936 there were 401,000 tons of wheat imported; in 1937 the figure was 324,000 tons; in 1938, 379,000 tons; in 1939, 362,000 tons, and in 1940, 287,000 tons. The importation of flour did not vary very considerably over those years. It was almost 7,000 tons in 1936, and it went down in 1940 to slightly under 4,000 tons. However, it is not a very big figure. As regards the wheat acreage in the years 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939, perhaps I had better give the total yield in tons; that would be easier, but I can give the other figures if necessary. The yield in 1936 was 209,000 tons; in 1937, 187,000 tons; in 1938, 198,000 tons, and in 1939, 255,000 tons. It is rather interesting in connection with the last figure—255,000 tons for 1939—to observe that the yield was exactly one ton per acre. In the other years, from 1936 to 1938, it did not quite reach that figure, being down something like 10 or 15 per cent.

Last year the area under wheat was 305,000 acres. That was some 50,000 acres in excess of the previous year. Assuming that the total yield was up to the 1939 capacity, the imports last year, together with the wheat acreage that we had, were practically the equivalent of any of those previous years. If there was a reserve in stock, we would like to hear the Minister indicate what was the amount of it, because, from those figures, it would appear that that reserve should still be to the good. The situation then, while serious, would not exactly be dangerous. It would have much more of the character of the statement that was made by the Minister in August last than of the statement that was made in his letter some seven or ten days ago.

We do not desire to minimise in any way the seriousness of the situation. We want to know what it is. We are perfectly satisfied, so far as the people of this country are concerned—taking them one and all—that they would much prefer to know the real situation. It would be a far better thing nationally that the exact information regarding every item should be known rather than to have these rumours going about of too much of one thing, too little of another, the dangers of a shortage, the possibility of a surplus, and so on. If, from the commencement, there had been a little more effort to itemise information rather than to generalise on the situation, it is quite possible a good deal of the uneasiness that has arisen would not have shown itself in any part of the country. If the situation is that we cannot expect or anticipate imports, if the Ministry are satisfied that the war developments that have taken place are such that imports into this country are unlikely, then we would expect on the part of the Ministry, some special effort to enable the people of the country generally to deal with the situation.

One of the complaints made in connection with the present situation is that there is no regular set price for seed wheat, that it varies from 45/- to 85/- a barrel. Another criticism that I have heard is that when the Minister speaks he makes the point that there are people who are opposed to a national policy in connection with the present situation; that there are large farmers who are not disposed to break up their land. If there are, they probably adopt that attitude for very good reasons. I think it is a mistaken policy at a time like this to look for enemies. The idea ought to be to extend the circle of your friends, to endeavour to get people to help rather than to make it more difficult for them to take part in any big movement in which you would expect national support.

Even in some of the articles that one reads in the newspapers one finds criticism of a certain type of farmer, the type usually described as the large farmer. I have no brief for the large farmers; they are not represented in my constituency; they have not approached me in connection with this matter and I know them only through the statistics that are published by the Government. I find that the larger farmers in this country give employment to 90 per cent. of the agricultural labour that is engaged on the land. Taking it from the point of view of improving our national economy, it would be no harm to see how far it would be possible to help people of that sort. If they till, they till more extensively than the small farmer and, remember, the small farmer has on his land generally a sufficient quantity of manure to fertilise the land which he proposes to till whereas it is unlikely that the large farmer would have that advantage. In any case, if we are going to look for a big extension of tillage, it is probably from these people that the Minister would be expecting it and it would be better for him to consider what their difficulties are and how far he can help them rather than to antagonise them.

The next question that arises is how the Government itself stands in regard to lands in its possession. The Land Commission has not distributed all the land it has acquired. There are still some lands in its possession which have not been divided and there are other Departments of State which, year after year, advertise land for letting. In one district which I pass on my way to my constituency the State has something like 1,000 acres which is grazed year after year. When the Minister threatens to take over the lands of certain people year after year if they do not till them, the question may be asked why he does not take over those State lands and till them and show these people, who have not as much experience of tillage as Government Departments have, how the job can be well done? It is a remarkable thing that scarcely any public matter that has been ventilated here during the past few years has occasioned so many letters as I have got on this subject of shortages. Some of these are by way of criticism from people who have been badly treated in connection with the distribution of petrol. There are secondly a number of persons, farmers, who have various causes of complaint in connection with their efforts to get the best out of their land. Some of them complain that the facilities in connection with the provision of credit are not sufficient to deal with the present national situation. Others complain that they are being pressed at the present moment either for rates or annuities. Still others ask why, if they are expected to break so much more land than they were in the habit of doing, have no means been devised to give them aid in that connection. Some of them mention the assistance given by the beet company to beet growers.

I have dealt already with petrol and wheat. In so far as imports of tea are concerned, looking over them for the past few years, although the quantities vary very considerably in some years as compared with others, there has been no marked reduction of imports last year as compared with the previous year or the year prior to that, and there should be no shortage. It is just possible that the Minister, when he was advising people to lay in stocks, may not have adverted to the fact that a shortage of a particular commodity might be occasioned by reason of very considerable purchases being made. Whether or not the Minister is aware of it, people have found difficulty in purchasing tea during the last couple of weeks. While there is an objection to a rationing scheme, it has been put to me by people who have found difficulty in getting these commodities that, as far as they are concerned, it would be better if they were rationed even if they were to get a smaller quantity than they usually purchased. I understand in connection with tea supplies that there has been some relief in the last week or so.

Generally, I think the Minister should be quite candid, not alone with the House, but with the country in connection with these matters. It is most unfortunate that he allowed the petrol situation to develop to a point where it may mean considerable unemployment. People can get over their uneasiness, but it is not easy to get back to employment once it is lost. Two final questions arise as regards the necessity for a national movement to deal with the present crisis. You must first of all impress the country with the necessity of such a movement. You must tell the people of the steps you are taking or propose to take to deal with the ordinary economy of the country. You must assure them that their efforts will not be impaired, that their traditional method of husbandry is not going to be interrupted, that steps will be taken to help them where it is possible to help them to produce what is required. In the case of public addresses, either by the Minister himself, by the Publicity Department, through the Civil Service, or through any other Department, the Government should endeavour, of all things, not to try to make the situation appear better than it is. Give the people the truth, stop propaganda for the duration of the war and you will have a greater response from the people than if they are deceived or believe they are being deceived. If the Government take the people into their confidence, they can rely upon it that that confidence will not be abused or endangered by the people.

I formally second the motion.

Apparently it is desired that I should speak at this stage, although I should have preferred to wait until later on in the debate, in case other Deputies might desire to raise questions concerning commodities other than those mentioned by Deputy Cosgrave. If a desire is expressed by other Deputies for such information at a later stage, I shall endeavour to give it to them, if I am permitted to do so by the rules of order.

On a point of order, I take it that there is nothing to prevent the Minister's reply dealing with the supply question generally and the general circumstances of the country so far as supplies are concerned?

Certainly; it is possible to deal with the supply position by way of a general statement and I shall endeavour to do so, but there are a very large number of commodities concerning which supply difficulties have arisen or may arise, and if I were to attempt to deal with each one of these commodities in any exhaustive way, it would take a very long time. I do not suppose that members of the Dáil would require me to do that because the list includes a great number of commodities that are not of general interest.

I think the feeling of the Dáil is that the Minister should not go into detail in any way that would obscure the main matters of importance, but that he should fully deal with those that appear to be of an urgent character.

I can assure the Deputy that I have no desire to obscure the position. On the contrary, I was very glad that this meeting of the Dáil was called in order to give me an opportunity of removing certain obscurities which are preventing certain people understanding clearly what the position is. I should start off by saying that I am willing now, as I always have been willing, to give the Dáil the fullest possible information concerning our supply position. But, in giving that information, I have got to keep in mind certain important considerations, considerations which I feel sure most Deputies will agree are important. I have made it a rule since I became Minister for Supplies to speak on the position in respect of particular commodities only in reply to specific requests for information here in the Dáil, or in public, when the active co-operation of the public was required in order to overcome difficulties. The reasons for that rule which I imposed upon myself are, I think, easy to understand.

When the supply position in respect of some commodity is easy and no particular problem arises in connection with it, there is not much point in speaking about it. That is the position in respect of a large number of commodities to-day. It is, however, probably unnecessary to state that in respect of a number of commodities which are imported from overseas, there have been many occasions during the past year when supplies were low and when actual shortage was only prevented by the timely arrival of fresh supplies. In such cases, a premature announcement of the difficulty would only have encouraged hoarding or induced panic buying which might have disorganised the distribution of available supplies. In cases of that character, that is to say, where a shortage of supplies is due to accidental and temporary causes and no permanent curtailment of them is to be feared, a frank statement of the position may not always be desirable in the public interest, and I would ask Deputies to bear that fact in mind when pressing for information. Where a shortage of supply is due to permanent causes likely to persist, it has always been my policy to make the position clear to the public as soon as possible. Because of the well-founded concern now evident concerning our future supply position, and because of the motion before the House moved by Deputy Cosgrave I propose to make a fairly full statement here to-day.

Up to the present our difficulties have been mainly in relation to industrial raw materials concerning which the public, as a whole, are not directly interested. In such cases, the position is always fully discussed with the parties who are directly concerned, and the arrangements to make good the deficiencies or to find substitute materials have been agreed to with them. As I have suggested, it is probably unnecessary for me to refer to these arrangements in detail here except to say that up to the present they have been reasonably successful in their operation and that no serious difficulty has arisen which has not been in part, at least, overcome.

Before I get on to the position concerning the individual commodities to which Deputy Cosgrave has referred, and which are causing concern, and review the supply position generally, I think I should make some general observations on the position concerning supplies as affected by the war. Long before the war began, the Government took such measures as were open to them to secure the importation against such an emergency of reserve stocks of essential commodities and to make provision for the continuance of the import of our requirements in the event of war breaking out. We knew very well, however, that there were very definite limits to what could be done under either of those heads. Time and again since the war began I have issued warnings in this House and elsewhere that the continuance of war conditions almost inevitably would mean restriction of our imports of various commodities, and I gave the public the best advice I could in the light of the possibilities as I saw them.

Deputy Cosgrave has said that the country was led to believe that the position in respect of supplies of essential commodities was quite comfortable. I do not know what statement made by me, either in this House or outside this House, could have led anyone to that conclusion. It is quite true that from time to time I stated the position as it then existed in relation to different commodities, the supplies in hands and the supplies on the way. From the day the war began I have on every occasion upon which I spoke given warning that we could not be certain that any arrangements we had made would continue to function or that any supplies we had contracted to purchase abroad could in fact be delivered here; that the one certain element in a war situation was the uncertainty which is inevitably associated with it. I can quote here if it is desirable, if there is any question of making a personal defence against a charge of having misled the public, the statements I made here and outside this House on each occasion that this matter was discussed. With a uniformity which members of the Party opposite will allege is not always to be found in my statements, I stated the same thing over and over again: that no matter how secure we might appear to be at any given time, rapid changes in the situation might upset all our plans and create in relation to any commodity a position of scarcity.

There is a reluctance, which is not perhaps unnatural, on the part of most people to take a realistic view of an unpalatable possibility. Most people prefer to go on hoping for the best, and then look around for an opportunity to blame somebody when things go wrong. People, however, are beginning to realise the fact that war is a very unpleasant business, not merely for those countries who are directly engaged in it but for a great many other countries as well. It is quite impossible for the Government to take measures which would prevent the effects of the war being felt, and being felt very severely in some directions, in this country. Apart from the question of the marketing of our surplus production, it is a fact that before the war our economic structure depended upon imports in the case of a very large number of important commodities. These will not be available in the future in the quantities in which we were accustomed to get them; some of them, in fact, may not be available at all. The public in this country must count themselves lucky that, for the past 15 months, they have not felt the effects of the war more severely, and the country may also count itself lucky that it is possible, by our own efforts, to produce sufficient food to save our own people from starvation.

It may be useful, at this stage, to mention some commodities which were a source of considerable difficulty in this country during the last war, and which almost certainly would have been a source of equal difficulty in this war were it not for the substantial industrial development which has taken place here in the interval. I mention this matter, not for the purpose of arousing memories of dead controversies, but to indicate that that industrial development, to which I have referred, has left us in the position of being independent, or almost independent, of outside sources in respect of those commodities. A steady, normal supply of these goods is taken by the public here to be a matter of course, and it may be no harm to remind them how much worse our position might have been if our industrial development had not taken place. Amongst the goods I have in mind are, first of all, sugar. Full supplies of sugar are available at present, and if our production plans are not upset by fire or flood or air-raids or other catastrophes, full supplies of sugar will be available indefinitely. The availability of sugar supplies has kept a large number of subsidiary industries in production which could not have remained in production if there had been any scarcity of sugar such as we experienced here in the last European war.

I may mention cement, which we are now producing in quantities in excess of our own requirements and of which we have an exportable surplus. I may say that, against the possibility of catastrophe, stocks of cement have also been accumulated and are being kept accumulated. The existence of that industry also, and the existence of these adequate supplies, have kept in existence a very large number of subsidiary but equally important industries. I may mention boots and shoes, of which we have sufficient for our own requirements; and behind these boot and shoe factories we have tanneries capable of supplying our requirements in leather. I may mention cotton and woollen goods, of which there are adequate supplies, although perhaps not in all the varieties to which we have been accustomed. Of clothing of all kinds there is adequate production, and of glass bottles and jars there is an exportable surplus. There is adequate production of wire nails and wood screws, which would be otherwise unprocurable, also of aluminium goods. There is adequate production of medical preparations and many classes of medical equipment. There is adequate production of furniture, cast-iron goods and, in fact, most classes of building materials, and also adequate production of motor and cycle tyres. We also have an adequate production of paper of most classes. I perhaps might mention also the existence of an adequate number of flour mills. We are embarking upon a programme of increased wheat production in order to produce our flour requirements, which would be impracticable if the mills were not there to handle the great quantity of wheat which we hope to have produced.

There are a number of other classes of goods, of lesser importance, which I might mention, which, if not produced at home, would be in very short supply, if not impossible to get. We had many debates in times of peace about the wisdom of an industrial development programme, and we may resume these discussions at some future date, but I feel sure that all Deputies will appreciate its value during a time of war. I might even mention, in this connection, industrial alcohol, without arousing protests, but rather anxious inquiries as to how the alcohol factories are progressing and what are the prospects of increasing their output.

You have some shame left, I am glad to see.

You will not get many cheap potatoes for these factories anyhow.

Now he is bringing over treacle from Florida for them.

However, our position is so much better than it might have been, because of the expansion of our own internal production to include many articles of common consumption or essential to our standard of living. We had not gone far enough to make our economy entirely independent of imports from abroad and, in fact, as I have said, our economic structure was based upon a continuation of these imports; and it is in relation to these imports, these goods which we require in order to maintain the amenities to which our people have been accustomed, that the difficulties—and these are real difficulties—have arisen. In connection with the purchase of imported commodities there are three vital factors to be borne in mind. The first of these is the availability of physical supplies. In the case of a number of commodities the demand for them in belligerent countries, for war purposes, has so restricted their supply that the quantities available for ordinary commercial use are small, and in the case of some of these commodities there is none at all available for ordinary commercial use. That is the position in relation to a certain number of commodities. In the case of others, concerning which we have difficulties—notably in the case of cereals such as wheat and maize— supplies are available in ample volume in those countries which, in normal times, produce the great bulk of the world's requirements.

The second factor is that of foreign exchange. The seller of commodities in foreign countries must be paid in the currency of his own country or in some other currency which he is prepared to accept. Deputies are aware that, while this country has built up a very substantial reserve of foreign assets, those assets are almost entirely in the form of sterling securities.

The third factor is that of transport. Even if the supplies of the goods required are freely available, and even if we are in a position to pay for them, we still have to find the ships to bring them to our shores. It is this factor which has given rise to our most substantial difficulties. I have dealt with this shipping difficulty on previous occasions in this House and elsewhere. At the outbreak of war all ships belonging to belligerent countries ceased to become available for the requirements of other countries, except in so far as these requirements happened to coincide with the requirements of belligerents. In addition numbers of neutral vessels were taken over for service with belligerent countries. American vessels were prohibited from sailing in certain areas, which unfortunately included the ports of this country. The convoy system led to a serious slowing down of sea transport. A number of countries that were neutral at the beginning of the war have since become engulfed, and their ships are no longer available. Large numbers of ships, as everyone knows, have been sunk and the sinking continues. A substantial number of neutral ships bringing cargoes of grain to this country have been sunk. We have been exploring the possibility of purchasing a number of ships, which will be registered here and will be engaged principally in bringing imports of essential commodities to this country. It must be recognised, however, that, even if we had ships of our own engaged in these trades, this would not necessarily mean the end of our difficulties, for our own ships might also be sunk.

By Germany.

They have been.

I have stated these general considerations, because Deputies must bear them in mind when dealing with the position concerning particular commodities. There is a motion before the House which asks the Government to define the probable future situation in regard to essential supplies, and also to indicate what steps are contemplated for their equitable distribution in the event of acute shortage arising. It will, perhaps, help Deputies to appreciate the difficulties which the Government has, in giving the information that it is desired to give in that motion if they study the remarks I have just made.

Let me deal now with the question of specific commodities. Before doing so, however, I wish to say this concerning the statement made by Deputy Cosgrave, that only the Government knows what the position is, and that the Government had led the country to believe, in relation to our supplies of our essential commodities like petrol, wheat, and the like, that there was no need for anxiety, that if others have come to the same conclusion from statements made by the Government that Deputy Cosgrave has come to, it is practically useless making statements at all, because I am certain that no public pronouncement made by me or by any other Minister, could possibly have been interpreted in that way. In the case of petrol, there has been a great deal of discussion during the past fortnight.

Hear, hear.

The question of our petrol supplies was discussed on many previous occasions in this House, and far from having led people to believe that no difficulty existed, or was to be anticipated, I have always, on every occasion that I spoke on the subject, uttered a warning that there could be no guarantee that supplies could be kept up, or that even the rationed supplies which were available during the last year would be always available. On the first occasion we debated this question in the House, on September 2nd, 1939, about the time the war started, Deputy Belton stated that I had assured the House that the position was satisfactory. My reply was:

"No, I said quite the reverse. I said that, so far as possible, we have been endeavouring to acquire stocks of petrol, but our experience is that it was the one commodity in which we cannot possibly say that we hope to obtain stocks for any considerable period of time."

On the next occasion on which we discussed it here, October 18th, 1939, I said:

"It was evident shortly after the war began that difficulty would be experienced in obtaining supplies of petrol. That expectation proved to be true. There is a false idea that there are considerable stocks of petrol in the country. That is not so."

Why were there not?

"Very few tankers arrive here now. Supplies are arriving in relatively small quantities. The situation is being kept constantly under review."

We discussed it again on 6th March, 1940. I said then:

"It is obvious that once rationing becomes necessary, persons cannot get the petrol that they think they ought to have. It seems that the great bulk of motorists have adapted themselves to the altered conditions, but considerable pressure is exercised by individuals for bigger allowances. The supply position is such that we cannot meet those demands ...."

Only a few weeks ago I broadcast a talk in which I dealt with this very matter, and on that occasion I appealed to owners of motor vehicles to economise in the use of petrol. I warned them, even though they were being given rations calculated in accordance with their needs, as it was desirable to maintain that ration unchanged as long as possible, that it was essential in their own interests that they should reduce the consumption of petrol even below the permitted ration, if possible, and I told them that it was only by exercising individual personal economy in petrol supplies that we could hope to maintain the position unchanged. That was on November 11th last. In the light of the quotations I have given, I think it cannot be truthfully charged against the Government that they misled the country in any way concerning the position in respect of petrol supplies. It is clear that there can be no certainty of our being able to maintain supplies, even on the restricted basis which has been in operation since the beginning of the war.

The first thing of which I might remind the House is, that the companies which are responsible for the distribution of our petrol supplies are subsidiaries of companies controlled elsewhere, and that, in fact, they form part of the vast network which controls the production, distribution and sale of petroleum products throughout the greater part of the world. Long before the war, steps were taken by my Department—then the Department of Industry and Commerce—to do everything possible to ensure that reasonably adequate supplies of petrol would be maintained for this country in the event of war. The assurances I received at that time were not unsatisfactory. The position of our petrol stocks is being kept continually under review, and as recently as October last representations were made by my Department to the appropriate quarter, to the effect that the stocks in this country were unduly low. We urged that they should be replenished. Again, the assurance received was such that I could not regard it as unsatisfactory. We have distributed petrol since the beginning of the war on as liberal a basis as circumstances permitted and we have had little evidence at any stage that motor vehicle owners appreciate how lucky they have been.

The shortage arose suddenly, however. If anybody had asked me or had asked any officer of my Department on the forenoon of Christmas Eve as to our position regarding petrol, the reply would have been the same as at any time since the beginning of the war— it would have been to the effect that, so far as we could see, there was nothing to be worried about at the moment, but that no assurance whatever could be given about the future. But that afternoon the whole prospect changed. The distributing companies notified my Department that they had been informed from their offices in London, that on account of the recent loss and danger to vessels on the way to Ireland a very serious supply position existed and that at that stage the suppliers could not see any prospect of replacing those vessels and cargoes. It was suggested to the three principal companies operating here that they should meet to consider the position and should then approach my Department to inform them.

They were told also in that message, which they received from their London offices, that if the Department asked for any opinion, all they should suggest at present would be that we would be well advised to tighten up the rationing system most drastically. My Department immediately took the matter up by telephone with the British Government Department in London which controls the activities of those distributing companies in England, but even that Department did not at that stage know anything about the difficulty. The distributing companies at the same time had obtained confirmation of their own message and, in the circumstances, I felt that there was no course open to me in view of the uncertainty but to suspend deliveries by the distributing companies for the time being. Energetic efforts were made immediately after Christmas Day to arrange for a further cargo of petrol, but it was not until the 31st December that we could obtain any assurance of a further cargo. Even then, of course, there was still a risk that that cargo might never reach this country. On the evening of the 31st December, however, the distributing companies were authorised to resume deliveries on a restricted basis and a Press announcement was issued intimating that this had been done.

Now, there has been a number of complaints to the effect that vehicle users were the victims of a "raw deal" on the part of my Department and Deputy Cosgrave has said here that people were invited or exhorted to take out road licences for a year and were informed that, if they did, special consideration would be given to them in the matter of petrol supplies. I do not know by whom people were invited or exhorted to take out road licences, or by whom any assurances of the character stated were given. I can state definitely that there was neither advice nor exhortation to persons to tax their cars and that no assurances of the kind were given, or could have been given, by me or by any officer of my Department.

Mr. Morrissey

They were public Government notices.

I can assure the Minister that I have that information definitely, that I believe it, and that it is true.

Deputy Cosgrave cannot leave it at that. He must say by whom these assurances were given. The Deputy's allegation, as I take it, is that the assurances were given to the people as a whole or to a number of individuals.

By Government officials.

I am quite certain that the Deputy has been misinformed— certainly, as far as public statements are concerned, and it is on the basis of those public statements that allegations are based. There is no ground on which the allegations can be justified.

Surely the Minister heard the broadcast asking people to take out licences before Christmas and exhorting them to take them out before the 1st January?

The announcement that was made, in so far as it dealt with the question of taking out licences, was an intimation to the public that they would be prosecuted if they did not.

They were told to take them out before the 1st January.

And they were told that, if they used January petrol coupons to procure petrol for a car not taxed for January, they would be prosecuted.

Were they not told also that the face value of the coupons would not be reduced?

On the 27th December this announcement was issued to the Press:

"Owing to unforeseen difficulties in connection with the maintenance of petrol supplies, it has been found necessary to impose restrictions on deliveries of petrol by the distributing companies. A further announcement will be issued as soon as possible. Meanwhile, no garage owner should, under any circumstances, accept January coupons before they become valid. No motor vehicle owner should exchange such coupons before the appropriate date. Owners of motor vehicles which are not taxed for the month of January, 1941, must surrender to the Department of Supplies any January coupons issued to them. Serious action will be taken in the case of all defaulters."

On the 31st December another announcement was issued. I am not going to read it in full, as a lot of it relates only to detailed administrative arrangements that the Department would have to make. The announcement said:

"The distributing companies have been authorised to resume deliveries of motor spirit as from to-morrow, the 1st January, on a restricted basis. The value of petrol coupons is not being changed, that is to say, the unit for coupon purposes is still one gallon, and licensed holders are requested not to exchange their coupons for petrol on any other basis. Garage proprietors are warned that, for the next week or two, they cannot expect to get normal supplies and should, therefore, ensure that petrol supplied to them is distributed on an equitable basis amongst their consumers. Economy in the consumption of petrol is essential for the present, and the Department confidently appeals for the co-operation of motor vehicle users in this respect. Motor cars should not be used for non-essential purposes."

Mr. Morrissey

Private companies acting in that way would be getting about five years' imprisonment.

Then came another announcement. This is only a question of fact. I want any reasonable Deputy in this House to say what part of any one of those announcements I have read out could possibly be interpreted to mean that persons were being invited or exhorted to take out road licences for a year and what other part of them informs them that, if they did, special consideration would be given in the matter of petrol supplies.

It is the value of the coupons.

I think that of all the charges which have been levelled in connection with the supply problem, that is probably the most unfair.

The whole outside of the brick was gold.

Petrol is the one commodity rationed in this country since the war began, and the one commodity the distribution of which is subject to a rationing system to-day. Time and again since the beginning of the war motor vehicle users have been warned that they could not be assured of continuance of supplies. The first announcement that there would be a limited distribution of petrol by the companies to garage proprietors intimated that petrol was being released on a restricted basis. The further announcements were all of a character which conveyed to motorists the warning that, for the time being at least, the normal petrol supplies could not be made available to them. We asked for economy in the consumption of petrol. We pointed out, in fact, that such economy was essential. We asked motorists not to use their motor cars for non-essential purposes, and we appealed for their co-operation in securing economy in the use of petrol. Let me say here that the only response we got to these appeals was that, having released to petrol distributors about ten days' supply of petrol, even on the basis of the rationing of last year, the whole of that ten days' supply was apparently consumed in three days, because three days later complaints of a scarcity arose again. It was at that time that I caused an announcement to be made that the Gárda authorities would prosecute anybody found driving an untaxed vehicle. That was done, because it would be unfair to persons who had paid their tax for the current year to allow other motor vehicle users to use all the petrol they could get in the early part of January, and then lay up their cars without renewing their tax.

There was nothing in anything which was done by my Department, or by any other Department of the Government, which could have induced motor vehicle owners to tax their cars for 1941, and, in fact, a substantial number of motor vehicle owners did not tax their cars for 1941. We have now reduced the value of the unit to a quarter of a gallon, and that measure will continue in force for the remainder of the present month. Whether it will be necessary to maintain such stringent control over deliveries after the end of this month, it is not yet possible to say. I can only say that I am hopeful that the position will improve, and, as soon as it is possible to do so, I shall be very happy to arrange for the distribution of petrol on a more liberal basis. I want to have no misunderstanding: we must maintain a certain minimum stock in this country for emergency purposes, and, let me repeat once more, that no guarantee can be given to motor vehicle users as to the scale upon which it will be possible to maintain future supplies.

Before I leave the question of petrol, there is one further matter that I want to refer to. Deputy Cosgrave referred to the action of the Government in these words: "The Government allowed this position to develop without taking any action to check it." I want to make it clear that there was no action which the Government could take which would have prevented the situation arising which did arise on the 24th December. From the day upon which the war started, following the introduction of our petrol rationing scheme, we have secured, through the co-operation of the petrol distributing companies, only a sufficiency of petrol to keep up supplies. It has not been possible to accumulate a reserve stock of petrol, even if it were practicable to do so, because petrol cannot be stored without loss; but it has not been possible to do it because surplus petrol supplies were not made available to us. I know the idea persists in some quarters that, if we had imposed a more severe rationing system last year, we might have been able to build up a reserve stock. That is not the case. If we had cut down the consumption of petrol by reducing the ration, the only result would have been that we would have got less petrol in. I want Deputies clearly to understand that position. It is, of course, necessary to maintain certain reserves for defence purposes, and in no circumstances can these reserves be eaten in upon; but there is no means open to us, having regard to the control of the petrol trade of the world which these companies exercise, and to the fact that these companies are not subject to our orders, by which we can build up an emergency reserve of petrol.

Let me make some reference now to the question of wheat. First of all, I gather that Deputy Cosgrave desires that the position as it is should be made clear to the public. Again, in order to meet the charge, if it is a charge, that the Government in any way misled people concerning our position, I would refer the Deputy to the statements which I have made previously concerning our wheat supplies in this House. I looked up these statements and found that we had forecast the probable development with some accuracy. We intimated that, on the assumption that for a period we would be able to get restricted supplies from abroad before supplies were cut off entirely, and having regard to the reserve stocks that we had built up and the probable production that we would obtain from our own soil, we would be able to keep up supplies to about the harvest of 1941. The reserve stock which was built up before the war still exists. We have succeeded in maintaining it untouched. I do not mean that the same wheat is there, but the reserve stock, controlled by the Wheat Reserve Committee, is there.

What is the size of it?

Our position at the moment is that the stock of wheat in the hands of the Wheat Reserve Committee, as well as the wheat in the hands of Grain Importers, Ltd., and of flour and wheat in the hands of the flour millers represents six months' supply on the basis of the existing extraction of wheat.

As a reserve stock?

No. That is the total stock available at the moment. The reserve stock represents about 65,000 tons.

Then that will not be enough?

I think that is what we are meeting about. I will deal with that. Deputy Cosgrave must not be misled by the figures concerning our wheat acreage of last year. The quantity of wheat available for milling was about 200,000 tons. A substantial part of the wheat produced has to be retained for seed in the following year. Some part of it is not suitable for milling, and this year, to a larger extent than usual, it appears that farmers have held their wheat for the purpose of grinding it at home or of having it ground for themselves— instead of having sold it for milling by the flour millers—but, roughly, 200,000 tons of wheat became available for milling. In that regard I can say that the amount received was somewhat less than what we had anticipated. In other words, farmers held over in their own hands a larger quantity of wheat than we had anticipated.

Was it less than in the previous year?

No. I think the quantity that came in was larger this year.

Does the Minister say that 200,000 tons were delivered to the millers?

Yes. As Deputies are aware, we set up a company of a nonprofit making character, which has controlled all our purchases of wheat abroad since the beginning of the war. For a long time that company was, in fact, able to make substantial purchases, and even to arrange for the shipping of the wheat that they had purchased to this country. I have mentioned already how our shipping difficulties arose.

Mr. Morrissey

There is a rather more important point which I should like to have cleared up before the Minister passes from that matter. I understand from him that 200,000 tons of wheat were delivered to the millers. I got the impression from some figures which were published that we produced 300,000 tons of wheat last year.

We may have.

Mr. Morrissey

Are we to take it that one-third of the total wheat supply was retained, either by the farmers for their own use, or by the millers for seed for this year?

No, it would be held by the farmers for seed.

Mr. Morrissey

One-third of the total production of the country?

I do not know what the total production is.

Mr. Morrissey

300,000 tons, I think.

305,000 tons last year.

The quantity delivered to millers for milling was 200,000 tons. A proportion of the product would not be suitable for milling.

Mr. Morrissey

Very little last year.

A much more substantial proportion would be held for seed purposes and this year, to an exceptional extent, farmers held wheat for home-milling. It is quite obvious that that is so by reason of the fact that, during the past few months, since the last harvest came in, there has been a notable diminution in the sale of flour in many rural districts.

The figure given for the previous year is 255,000 tons.

For production. That is probably right. I was dealing with the activities of Grain Importers, Limited. The chartering of ships for the importation of the grain which they had purchased abroad became increasingly difficult, but did not become acute until towards the end of last year. I should say that the invasion of Greece, and the consequent change in the status of Greece from that of a neutral to that of a belligerent, was, in fact, the most decisive factor at the end of the year in altering our position, because, for a long time before that, we had been almost entirely utilising Greek ships for the importation of grain, and the requisitioning of these ships by the Greek Government for their own purposes helped a great deal to create the position of absolute scarcity which emerged towards the end of November, when Grain Importers, Limited, informed us that they had not succeeded in chartering a single ship for the importation of grain into this country this year. There are ships which will bring in some quantities of grain this year, we hope, but these are ships which were chartered a considerable time previously. In so far as new charters are concerned, they have informed us that for a number of weeks previous to that, they had been unable to arrange a single charter, and that situation indicated that we could not base plans upon the assumption that any wheat at all would be imported this year; that, on the contrary, we must endeavour to ensure that our existing supplies will carry us on until the next harvest comes in and that the next harvest will be sufficient to meet our requirements for the whole of the following year.

We are, of course, basing all our plans upon the assumption that the war will continue. If, at any stage, the war should cease, many of these difficulties will disappear, but we can only plan upon the worst assumption, and the worst assumption is that it is going to be a long war and we must be able to meet our requirements by our own production until the end of it. I have stated that our existing stocks of wheat and flour, on the basis of the present extraction which is 75 per cent.— at least, it was 75 per cent. until Monday last—are sufficient to meet our normal requirements to the end of June. We have, however, to go to the end of August at least, and, consequently, it is necessary to spread out these stocks for a longer period than they would otherwise cover.

It is, I think, obvious to everybody that the rationing of bread is not merely undesirable but almost impracticable, and, consequently, we must endeavour to keep up a full supply of flour, no matter what devices have to be adopted to that end, rather than resort to a curtailment of deliveries. I hope that, no matter what happens, we shall be able to avoid the introduction of a rationing scheme for consumers in relation to bread. We have increased the extraction of wheat to 80 per cent., which effects quite a substantial saving, and, at the present time, consultations are proceeding with millers and bakers, who have been most useful at all times since this difficulty developed, and who are at present carrying out experiments, at our request, for the purpose of determining what is the most suitable and most palatable type of bread and flour which can be provided for the public in existing circumstances.

It is almost certain that the stocks of wheat will have to be supplemented by some other cereal or cereals, and steps have already been taken to purchase supplies of barley. Difficulty has, however, been experienced in obtaining sufficient barley, and further measures may have to be adopted. As soon as possible, I will cause an announcement to be made of the steps which will be taken to ensure that the objective of spreading the available supplies until August next will be realised. It must, however, be understood that the fullest co-operation will be required from the public if we are to succeed and especially co-operation in the elimination of wastage of either bread or flour, and also in regard to the substitution, in so far as that is possible of other foods for flour. Subject to that co-operation being forthcoming, I think the shortage will be overcome, and that it will not be necessary to institute any elaborate scheme of rationing.

What will be the effect of that scheme on the majority of the malt houses in the country?

I do not know what effect the Deputy anticipates. There is no reason why there should be any effect upon them. So far as we are seeking to obtain barley now, we are purchasing it by agreement with the sellers, but it may be necessary to go further than that. That question will be decided when we are in a position to take stock of the situation. Whatever the effect, we intend to ensure that there will be a full supply of flour until August next.

Deputy Cosgrave spoke about reports which had been circulated that there was a shortage of tea. A number of such reports reached my Department, in consequence of which a conference with the representatives of the Wholesale Tea Importers' Association was held during the present week. From the report of that meeting, it appears that one wholesaler did restrict supplies to his customers. It was agreed that it was unnecessary for him to do so, and it has been arranged that he will proceed to issue supplies upon the normal basis, that is, each retailer getting 100 per cent. of his normal purchases. The Wholesale Tea Importers' Association assured me that, although the position has naturally to be kept under review from time to time, there is no cause for immediate anxiety and no reason why any rationing scheme should be introduced. I may say that it is inevitable that from time to time there will be fluctuations in the stocks of tea in the country by reason of difficulties in securing transport for the quantities of tea allocated to us. The reasons for these difficulties are well known to all Deputies, but heretofore it has been found possible to keep up a full supply of tea to all retailers and there does not appear at present to be any reason why that should not be done in the future.

I should like the Minister to say if he proposes to take any steps to relieve the difficulties under which cash purchasers of tea in the city are labouring at present. Many of them cannot get tea.

I know of no reason why cash customers, or any other customers, should not get their full normal supplies of tea, save in the case of customers of one wholesaler who proceeded to reduce his deliveries. There was no reason why he should have done so. His colleagues on the Tea Importers' Association decided that there was no reason why he should do so and he has undertaken to make good the full deliveries to his retailers. All other tea wholesalers have been delivering to their customers throughout the country tea supplies equal to 100 per cent. of their full, normal purchases.

Will the Minister give an assurance that cash purchasers will not in future have any difficulty in procuring supplies?

There is no immediate scarcity of tea but, from time to time, a particular wholesaler may run short and the retailers supplied by him may be short but the retailers of the country as a whole have considerable quantities of tea in stock and the wholesalers, as a whole, have fluctuating quantities in stock; these are always sufficient to enable supplies to go out when required. While it may happen that an individual shop, for some reason, may be short of tea, there is no scarcity in Dublin or any other part of the country and any customer should be able to get tea on demand.

Will the Minister issue a notice and indicate that complaints may be addressed to him if it is found that what he has suggested is not the case in practice?

The statement I am now making will be some intimation to the public regarding the position. A complaint may be addressed to me on a number of grounds—that tea is being sold at an excessive price or that a condition of its sale is that some other commodity should be purchased or in certain other circumstances in which a retailer might commit an offence in relation to the sale of tea— but there is no power in my Department to compel an individual retailer to sell tea to an individual customer.

I am merely asking that this be done so that the Minister would be aware of the facts—that they would be pretty fully and definitely stated to him. That would help to relieve the situation.

The Deputy may rest assured that complaints of that kind come regularly to my Department. This conference with the Tea Importers' Association was held as a result of my receiving complaints similar to those to which Deputy Cosgrave referred. People do not hesitate to write when they have complaints to make.

A lot of people do. The Minister would be smothered with complaints if he received them from everybody concerned.

Does the Minister stand over the statement that there is no shortage of tea in the country?

Is the Minister aware that there is unofficial rationing of tea in the city by retailers?

I admit that an individual retailer may be sometimes without tea altogether, for a variety of reasons. An individual wholesaler may be short of supplies but the wholesalers, as an association, and the retailers, as a class, have sufficient to provide full normal supplies.

The Minister is mainly concerned with the consumers and I want to point out to him that there is unofficial rationing of tea in the city, affecting a large number of consumers. I should like to know what the Minister proposes to do about it.

I have been speaking for some minutes on what I propose to do. In the case of a certain group of retailers, supplied by one wholesaler, there was a scarcity of tea for some weeks past but there was no reason why there should have been except that the wholesaler had reduced deliveries. Those reduced deliveries are now being made up so that that difficulty should disappear.

I am afraid it was more widespread than one wholesaler.

My Department is dealing with a body called the Tea Importers' Association, which represents about 75 per cent. of the wholesalers. The balance are unorganised and we have no means of getting at them but we are fully satisfied, when we get a report from this association as to the supply position or the existence of any difficulty regarding distribution, that we are being informed of the position of the tea trade as a whole. It may be that an individual wholesaler outside this association is short of tea but we have no means of knowing that.

Does the Minister know that the only people certain of a supply of tea are people with accounts with retailers or who are constant customers of a retailer?

I am not aware of that and there is no reason why that should be so. So far as tea is concerned, the only restriction on deliveries limits those deliveries to the full amount of the retailer's purchases in the datum year—whatever the datum year for this purpose is.

The motion before the House asks that the Government should define the probable future situation in regard to essential supplies. I think that the House will recognise, from what I have said, that it is quite impossible for the Government to do that. If anybody could tell me what the course of the war, and particularly the war at sea, is going to be, how long it is going to last, what countries will be numbered amongst the belligerents before it ends and what are the limits of the courses to which the various belligerent Governments may resort before it is over, I might attempt to formulate some sort of prophecy. On the basis of the information at present at the disposal of the Government, I cannot say more than I have said on various occasions—that we cannot be certain of supplies of any commodities which we have to import, that we have to base our preparations on the most unfavourable assumption, which is that supplies of essential commodities from outside this country may be cut off completely if the war continues. We must increase our production of foodstuffs of various kinds to such a point that we shall be able to save our population from starvation or want. In the case of commodities which cannot be replaced or substituted by utilisation of our own natural resources, we must make up our minds that the time may come when we shall have to do without them.

The motion asks what steps are contemplated for the equitable distribution of essential supplies in the event of acute shortage developing. In the case of petrol, a comprehensive rationing scheme has been in operation since the commencement of the war and I hope the House will agree that, on the whole, that scheme has, up to the present, secured equitable distribution of the available supplies. It is not necessary at the present stage to put into operation a rationing scheme for any other commodity, though it has been necessary, in some cases, to restrict deliveries temporarily. If the shortage of any other commodity should at a later stage become so acute as to necessitate rationing, then we shall adopt a form of rationing which may not be the same in the case of every commodity but which will be the most suitable that can be devised in the case of any commodity in respect of which such a scheme is necessary. A great deal of consideration has already been given to that question by my Department, but I do not think it would be wise, or that it is necessary, at the present stage, for me to discuss the matter in greater detail. Before the war began, we had under consideration all possible methods of rationing articles of common consumption, and various alternative plans have been prepared and are ready for adoption if such circumstances should arise. It is, of course, possible to effect, in relation to some commodities, a slight diminution in the total quantity consumed without issuing ration cards to consumers. In respect of a number of commodities during the last war that was done. I think that quite a substantial reduction in the consumption of tea was secured without formal rationing.

It is, of course, obvious that if we have to face in relation to these commodities a permanent shortage, equity demands that some system of rationing should be introduced. It will be introduced in such circumstances. But we have no reason at present to anticipate a permanent shortage in relation to these commodities other than those to which I have referred here this evening. At the same time, as I mentioned at the beginning, war is a very uncertain business and circumstances may develop in the course of a day or a week, or a month, which will alter completely the situation in which we now find ourselves and force us to a course of action which we do not now consider necessary.

What is the possibility of getting ships?

That depends upon so many factors that it is almost impossible to debate it here now. There are, I think, ships available in various parts of the world which might be purchased provided we can raise the wind with which to purchase them, and provided we can get over the other difficulties of putting them into service.

And keep them on the surface.

Yes. I said, however, that we have that matter under very active consideration at the moment, and if anything can be done in that regard it will be done soon, but our investigations have not at the moment revealed that a very great deal can be done in that matter.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister did not refer to the taximen at all.

The taximen are getting the same amount of petrol they got during last month.

Mr. Byrne

I had a letter this morning, which was signed for 40 of them, stating that they cannot get petrol.

I can assure the Deputy that the supplementary petrol ration given to taximen in Dublin gives them the same quantity of petrol which they would have got if this difficulty had never arisen.

Does that apply to the hackney men down the country?

I asked the Minister, in connection with the licence for petrol, if undertakers would not be included in the list in which there are clergymen, doctors, veterinary surgeons, newspaper offices, owners of agricultural tractors and so on.

That is a problem which I would not like to discuss at great length now. I have in fact received representations from many parts of the country that a great deal of petrol is wasted at funerals and urging that we should curtail by regulation the number of motor-cars attending funerals.

It is undertakers I have mentioned.

The hearse and mourning carriages.

It is difficult to see how one can enforce an equitable system of regulation in that regard. I will have consideration given to the matter. I want Deputies to understand, however, that our petrol position is really serious at the moment. The loss of the cargoes which were coming has left us very short indeed, and there is apparently no prospect of having these cargoes replaced. I do not wish to convey that we will get no petrol in future. I mean the next cargo will come when it would have come in any event, and the deficiency created by the loss of the cargoes in December will not be made good. Deputy Cosgrave referred to the fact that some petrol has arrived since. That is true, but the tanker was carrying a mixed cargo, and the quantity of petrol on board was not sufficient to make good even the quantity that will be used in this month under the restricted rationing system now in force. We cannot, therefore, eat in upon our supplies further than we are doing. Even with that tanker in and that quantity of petrol going into consumption, we will still have reduced further the emergency reserves of petrol which are there, and unless there is in sight a further substantial quantity of petrol coming into the country we cannot let up on the present system. There is a large number of people to whom I would very much like to give additional petrol allowances both because of the nature of the work upon which they are engaged or because of the employment involved, or for some similar reason, but it cannot be done if the petrol is not there. As soon as there is any indication that the situation is going to improve or supplies are going to become more plentiful a more liberal allowance will be given to everybody concerned.

Will the Minister answer my question about the hackney owners down the country? Are they going to be put on the same basis as the Dublin hackney drivers?

No; I do not think we can do that. There is, of course, a number of cars registered as hackneys throughout the country which are not really hackneys at all. I noticed, for example, that a very large number of these hackneys are only eight horse-power cars. I am quite certain there are very few bona fide eight horse-power hackney cars throughout the country. I do not think in relation to these cars we can give any additional allowance at all but we have decided that cars which are registered as taxis, of a much higher horse-power, which could conceivably be used as hackneys, will get an additional allowance but the additional allowance will be varied according to the circumstances.

May I point out to the Minister, before he concludes on that, that there is a second factor to be considered. I am very glad to hear that taxi owners in the City of Dublin get an extra allowance but in the City of Dublin the citizens have alternative means of travelling. That is not so in a great many parts of the rural areas. I agree with the Minister that there is a certain number—but I think a very small number—of cars registered as hackney cars which are not used strictly for hackney purposes but the vast majority of the cars so registered are used for hackney purposes.

It will be possible perhaps to re-examine that position when the figures for the registration of cars have been completed.

A great many of these people were not able to tax their cars because they could not get the petrol which would enable them to recover the tax.

Unity is a good thing on fundamentals in any country at a time of crisis, but unity to cover up ineptitude, inefficiency, laziness and incapacity constitutes a menace to the State in which it is practised. We have been glad to co-operate with the Fianna Fáil Government for the last six months on fundamentals for the common good, and whatever political loss that may have involved us in, we do not mind. It was the right thing to do and if we had to do it again we would do it again. But we are not going to allow that spirit to be carried a step further to the destruction of parliamentary institutions and the covering up of some of the most grotesque procedures that have ever disgraced a democratic administration. There was no need to try to sell our people a gold brick in the course of this crisis. Our people were quite ready to make sacrifices if the Government asked them for sacrifices, but no self-respecting people like to be defrauded when they are treating the Government fairly and squarely, in the full confidence that the Government will act in the same spirit with them. I say now that the Government deliberately tried to sell our people a gold brick in connection with this petrol business, and what makes me mad is that they largely succeeded. The best defence the Minister for Supplies can make here to-day is to say: "My brick was gold all over on the outside". That is not the point. The trouble is that the inside was the rottenest kind of clay, the clay of deceit, at a time when there was no need to use that instrument for the purpose of getting what the Government happened to want.

If there was a shortage of petrol on Christmas Eve, it was quite easy to tell the people that that was the case and to say quite plainly to the people: "The future will have to take care of itself. Everyone will have to tax his car in the knowledge that the future is uncertain". But what, in fact, happened? The Ministry of Supply dealt with this whole petrol question first in panic and then in fraud. Although the Minister says on Christmas Eve he did not apprehend the slightest possible emergency, somebody must have known that if certain events did not materialise in or about Christmas Eve, there would be a very dangerous situation. If the Minister knew that early in the year it was perfectly open to him to say: "As from the 10th or the 12th or the 15th December your petrol coupon will be for only half a gallon. If this dangerous event does not materialise, I will re-increase it to a gallon on the 27th December or the 29th December, but you will have to make up your minds to the fact that it may happen that instead of increasing it again I will have further to decrease it". If that course had been honestly followed the thousands of people who left this city on their Christmas holidays and had to leave their cars in Kinnegad or Multyfarnham or Leighlinbridge and all over the country would not have had to undergo that experience at all. If they had been given that fair and honest notice of the crisis that lay ahead it would not have been necessary to try all the chicanery which was tried in order to induce people to register their cars.

The Minister can quote documents till the cows come home. He has learned that art from his leader the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is always in a position to say: "Ah, you say I said that, but look at what I said", and when you proceed to read what he said you discover that what he said had three different meanings, one that de Valera alone understood, one that de Valera and his colleagues in the Cabinet understood, and one that the rest of the population of Ireland understood. When the situation becomes difficult the true meaning is the one that only de Valera understood. The combined effect of all the declarations from all the Ministers was to create the impression upon the minds of the average man in this country: "If you do not tax your car for 12 months, and do it quickly, you may get no petrol, but, if you do it quickly and promptly as is here suggested to you, you will be put in a favourable position and get the most petrol given to anyone."

Will the Deputy quote any document in support of that?

Quote my foot. I am telling you what the people gathered and what I gathered——

Gathered from what?

——from the statements and pronouncements and observations——

Read one of them.

——that were emerging from Government Departments during the period of crisis. If the Minister does not know that fact he must be the only man in Ireland who does not know that fact. Remember, we have been asking the people to take a lot on faith in the last four or six months, and to do them justice they took it. We asked them to join the Army, and they joined the Army in greater numbers than we dreamed they would. We asked them to join the Local Defence Corps, and they joined in greater numbers than we had dared to hope. We asked them to stick to the Local Defence Corps when new impositions were put upon them and it was anticipated that a considerable number might fall away, and 99 per cent. of them stuck their ground. They did that on faith, because the Government said: "The situation is dangerous, so dangerous that we cannot give you all the details." Now, that was no small achievement, and it was all founded on the confidence of the people that what the Government was telling them was true, and that if they did not give them the details and the background it was because it was dangerous to do so, and there was no need to look for them because the Government would not try to double-cross them. Now, on this occasion when the details and the background subsequently came to light in regard to this matter of supply, the people discovered that the Government was trying to double-cross them and, in fact, had succeeded in doing so. That was a silly, stupid, reckless thing to do.

Will the Deputy quote one document?

I am quoting the impression of 95 per cent. of the people of this country, which is more eloquent than any dishonest document quoted by the Minister's Department or the Department of any of his colleagues. I never expect much responsibility from that Government except when I am there to watch them myself. As long as a couple of my colleagues and myself are keeping our eyes on them, we have felt justified in inviting the people to give them generous co-operation. We have no control over the Government in regard to this matter of supply. We do not know what they are doing, but from what we can see of what they are doing they are doing a damned bad job. The inconvenience that their incompetence creates is a trivial matter beside the injury that their incompetence is likely to do to the man whose livelihood depends upon the maintenance of supplies, and it is about them I am concerned.

If some of us have to walk for a while, simply because the Minister for Supplies is too lazy or too incompetent to do his job, that is no great source of loss to anybody, though I see no signs of Ministers having to walk. I see four or five of them at one social function with a car apiece. They cannot even double up in this hour of national crisis. But that is a minor matter. I am thinking of the lorry driver. I am thinking of the men who drive bread vans. I am thinking of the taximan and the man who works in the garage. It is very easy to abolish that man's job by recklessly and precipitately fluctuating supplies, but remember that by cutting the supply in the month of January you may abolish 40 jobs, and when you restore the full supply not 20 of those jobs will be revived. Half the fellows who went out will never get their jobs back again. There are plenty of men running bread rounds in rural Ireland to-day, and if the van ever comes off it will never go on until after this war is over, and that man—who has perhaps a wife and two or three children depending on his wages and commission on that bread round—is going to go on the dole and be hungry for the remainder of this crisis. I do not believe when the Minister for Supplies was cavorting about on Christmas Eve and thereafter that he ever adverted to that aspect of the situation at all.

Can the Deputy make one positive constructive suggestion?

You will hear plenty of suggestions if you sit there for the next half hour or three-quarters of an hour. Listen with patience and you will be a wiser man, and if you do what I tell you there will not be half as much trouble in the future as there was in the past.

Blow up the beet factories !

The first thing I will tell the Minister is to give a little more attention to this Department than he has been giving for some time and possibly a great many of the difficulties we have had to face recently will not recur.

Does the Deputy remember when he would be caught dead before he would plant an acre of beet or wheat?

Wait a minute. If they are looking for trouble they will get plenty of it, but if I know the wise warrior at the far end of the bench word will travel around shortly: "Pipe down, boys, this is getting troublesome." It happened before and can happen again. I put it to the Minister for Supplies that the whole question of petrol rationing should be approached from the point of view of the people whose jobs depend on the maintenance of supply, and I am making the suggestion to him that the person who is using petrol as an amenity altogether should be almost completely put off the road——

So he has been.

Hold your horses. I suggest that he should be almost completely put off the road before the mercantile traffic is interfered with. I am making the suggestion to the Minister that before the mercantile traffic is interfered with he ought to be in a position to explain to the House—there may be an explanation—why it is considered desirable to maintain three separate systems of public conveyance operating between the city and Dalkey.

That does not affect the petrol position.

But surely to goodness the bus does not run——

It does not run on petrol.

It runs on some sort of oil.

That is not petrol.

Have you not got a tanker down on the quay to-day half full of oil, that ought to be full of petrol, and the reason it is half full of oil is because it is required for the buses running out from the city to Dalkey? Do not be dishonest about it.

The Deputy is dishonest.

Is it not true that the buses are using fuel oil and that that has to be brought into the country?

What has that to do with it?

Would there not be room in the tanker for more petrol?

It is not true.

We would not get the tanker at all. I tried to explain to the Deputy for half an hour that that is not under our control.

The Minister has been telling us that there was a mixed tanker down at the quay.

We did not mix it.

It was mixed to somebody's orders.

It was half way across the Atlantic before it was told to come here.

There are certain forms of oil-driven traffic, such as 'buses, functioning side by side with railway trains and other modes of locomotion, which might be curtailed before lorry drivers and others of that type were put off the road. I am putting it to the Minister that that could have been done.

It has been done.

It has not been done, and because it has not been done many individuals throughout the country have been seriously affected. The Minister has not given us very much information on the subject. I put it to the Minister that there are other classes of 'buses, the consequence of whose removal from the road may be very much more serious than at first appears. Let us take the commercial traveller. It might seem at first that if the commercial traveller had to stay at home no serious consequences would result to anybody but the commercial traveller. But it might be well to inquire very carefully to what extent, if the commercial traveller is prevented from maintaining his usual runs, the staffs of wholesale houses in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and elsewhere may lose their employment. To my mind that question of employment on the mercantile side of petrol consumption is one of the most vital and urgent questions that confronts the Minister.

I am suggesting that certain standards of equity are peculiarly applicable in the matter of petrol distribution, though at first glance that might not appear to be the correct thing. The Minister asks: "How am I to get petrol?" It is not reasonable for any man to burn his house down and do nothing to stop the conflagration except to spit on it and then say to his neighbours: "Now, look at what you did to my house". Why did the Minister for Supplies, who has been functioning for the last two years, ever allow us to reach the state in which we now are? I will tell the Minister not only how he could have prevented the present situation, but how he deliberately prevented other people from preventing it. I am putting it to the Minister that independent parties offered to build, in this city, storage for a 12 or 18 months' petrol supply, and they were told by the Minister that he would not make the land available for them because he wanted it for his own oil refinery on the quays.

That is not true.

I am submitting that that proposal was made to the Minister.

Will the Deputy say who were the parties?

When that proposal was made the Minister suggested that they should go to the Phoenix Park, make a hole there, and put petrol there.

I must have been asleep, because I do not remember anything like that.

Those people pointed out to the Minister that the laying of a pipe-line through the city would constitute a grave danger.

Is the Deputy suggesting that this proposal was made to me? There is not a word of truth in it.

I am suggesting that if the Minister had given his co-operation in the creation of additional oil storage two years ago, we would have in this country to-day a supply of petrol sufficient to last for 12 months or more and we would not be beholden to anybody.

Who offered to build the storage tanks?

The offer was made.

By whom?

By certain parties.

Surely the Deputy could give names?

I believe the offer was made by the petrol combines to which the Minister has referred.

That is not true, and, if those combines availed of the storage facilities that they have, it would solve our difficulties.

Was any offer made by anybody—was any proposal submitted to you?

No proposal involving the storage of petrol for use here was ever submitted to me by those petrol companies. The oil refinery project, which was discussed at great length here, was the subject of negotiation for a long period.

Was there not a proposal which did not mature as a result of failure to reach agreement with the Government?

No such proposal was ever made to my knowledge.

Was any proposal ever discussed for the creation of oil storage in the city?

No such proposal was ever made to my knowledge.

Was any proposal in regard to oil storage facilities ever discussed?

The idea of increasing the oil storage capacity of the country was often considered by us, but we never succeeded in getting anybody to agree to do it.

My information is that such negotiations were believed to have taken place. I cannot make out what the measure of the Minister's denial is, but I remain convinced that two years ago it would have been possible, with the co-operation of parties then available, to build accommodation in this city for supplies of petrol sufficient to last one and a half years, that there was some proposal about the Phoenix Park and that the whole thing fell through.

I suggest that when a statement has been made about a Minister and he definitely and categorically denies it, his denial ought to be accepted, at least until some proof to the contrary is brought forward.

Does the Taoiseach deny to Opposition Deputies the right to hold certain beliefs and to make statements as well as Ministers?

That is not the point. This procedure is quite new to my experience in the House. A statement has been made and the Minister has categorically denied it. The Deputy has put certain questions to the Minister and the Minister has said that to his knowledge this thing did not happen. The Deputy continues to make statements without submitting a shred of evidence to support them except to refer to some parties whom he will not name. To my mind, this is carrying Parliamentary procedure to an extraordinary degree.

The Minister has said: "From the information at my disposal I have no reason to believe that is so." The Deputy has every right to make a statement based on the information he has.

I say that the story is not true.

The Deputy has every right to say: "From the information at my disposal it is true."

What is the information?

Will the Minister quote a particular civil servant in every case?

Neither will the Deputy quote his source of information.

The statement made by Deputy Dillon has no foundation in fact.

I do not care a fiddle-dee-dee whether the Minister accepts my statement or does not. I am entitled to my beliefs and the Minister is entitled to his.

The point I am interested in is whether a direct denial by a Minister of a statement that has been made by a Deputy will be accepted by the House or not and whether, when such a denial has been made, the Deputy is in order in persisting in his statements and saying that what he says is true, notwithstanding the statement of the Minister.

May I submit that the Taoiseach is misreading or misinterpreting the standing orders? What he says applies only when there is a personal charge against a member of the House.

I wish the Chair would deal with the point of order and let me get on with my speech.

Mr. Morrissey

The Taoiseach has raised a point of order, and that is what is before the House until the Chair pronounces upon it. I am giving the interpretation that, so far as I know, has always been applied to that particular Standing Order. The Minister did not categorically deny the statement.

I say that it is not so— and what further form of denial does the Deputy want?

When a Deputy or Minister denies the accuracy of a statement concerning him, the practice has been that the denial is accepted and the statement withdrawn.

I made no allegation against the Minister.

I am not suggesting that the statement be withdrawn, but I do suggest that it is quite wrong and quite contrary to the practice that I have noticed here for a speaker to persist after a denial has been made— for a Deputy to persist that the Minister is lying.

Nobody brought the word "lying" into this discussion until the Taoiseach rose; there has been no mention of that at all. But if it is suggested that every time Mr. Seán Lemass, the Minister for Supplies, says I am wrong, I must sit down and say "peccavi," then I might as well clear out of Dáil Eireann, because according to that gentleman I am always wrong. The people have come to learn, however, that it is the Minister who is usually wrong, and in the long run I am proved to be right.

Now, let the people judge between us and let events prove who is right. I state that it is my belief—and God knows in this country we are still entitled to have beliefs though we may not be entitled much longer to have them—on the evidence I have, that oil accommodation could be built in this country two years ago sufficient to accommodate one and a half year's supply. The Minister on the other hand says it is his belief on the evidence that it could not be built. Let the event and the judgement of our fellow countrymen determine the issue between us.

The Deputy might now pass away from the point.

I shall get away from the point but I shall not be intimidated by an attempt to silence me.

The Deputy has misquoted me.

In what way?

The Deputy said that two or three years before the war started we could have erected sufficient oil tanks in the country to store a supply for 18 months. That is not my recollection of what he said previously. The Deputy said that a proposal was made to me by a private company or a number of private companies—to wit, the oil distributing companies now operating in this country —to build a number of oil stores here. No such proposal was made.

I said the proposal was made by somebody and there we stand. It will be all in the Official Report and let the event determine the correctness of our respective attitudes. I adhere to every syllable I have said and I am confident the event will prove that I am correct. I think it is surprising that the Minister has not told the House quite openly and frankly that the petrol supplies of this country——

Are you withdrawing?

——are largely allocated by the Petrol Supply Board of Great Britain. If my information is correct, the Minister recently communicated with the Petrol Supply Board and was told that the normal supplies of petrol would continue to come. Let us bear in mind what happened. According to the Minister, on Christmas Eve he foresaw the occurrence of things that would make the future supply problematical.

He stopped the distribution of petrol at once and that must have effected a considerable economy in what normally might have been expected as the distribution in December. We have now an assurance from the ordinary sources that the usual number of tankers may be expected and that beyond the normal risks of war, there are no risks to be faced in the future beyond those which we have had to face in the last 12 months. The Minister said that he thought ordinary supplies would be forthcoming.

I have no reason to think that petrol will not continue to be imported according to the programme we had arranged but the last lot did not come. It started, but it did not arrive. That may happen any future cargo. Until it has arrived, we cannot allow it to be distributed because we must maintain some reserve stocks. It is, therefore, not possible to increase the petrol ration until further petrol has arrived here.

The thing is to tell the people what the truth is.

That is what I said.

If the Minister said it, well and good, and if I underline the truth, well and good. The fact is that a couple of cargoes of petrol have been lost. If normal supplies return it is quite possible that the Minister may be able to restore the former ration. It is possible on the other hand that people may shut down men's jobs in a panic, if they are to be cut down to a quarter of a gallon, unless they are priests or doctors or those special classes mentioned in the Minister's statement.

The Deputy will realise that he cannot have it both ways. He has put his finger on the difficulty which confronts me. I cannot give a guarantee that supplies are going to come and, at the same time, avoid the charge that I am inducing people to tax their cars or do something else, by putting them in error as to what the position is.

The mistake the Minister has been making is that of thinking that there is some hidden virtue in withholding the truth about this question. There are certain matters relating to the defence of the country in regard to which we are all agreed that the right thing is to withhold information from the public but in regard to the question of petrol supplies there is nothing to be hidden.

It is because I told the people the truth that the Deputy has launched his attack.

That is where the Minister made a mistake. He did not tell the people the whole truth.

Yes, the whole truth.

One of the virtues of this debate may be that the whole truth may be extracted and communicated to the people. The Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Supplies should learn from this debate that the easiest way out of difficulties is to be frank with the people and voluntarily to tell them the truth as we have constrained them to do to-day.

We come now to the question of flour. Remember, this flour problem was introduced with a paragraph in the Irish Press threatening the people with the black spectre of starvation. That, after the following paragraph had appeared in a special interview given by the Minister for Supplies to the Irish Press on the 23rd of last August. The Minister was then asked how our food supplies would be affected in the event of any effective blockade. The Minister then said: “Existing stocks of imported food are sufficient to meet our full requirements for a long time to come. There is no need for anxiety on this score.” That is four months ago, although in this latest pronouncement in the Irish Press he has told us that he sees a situation in front of us in respect of wheat which brings the Irish people face to face with the dark spectre of early starvation.

That is twelve months after the date of the interview.

Four months after the Minister gave that interview——

We still have six months' supply in the country.

It is the truth the people want. There is no need to talk about the dark spectre of starvation. We have an immense surplus of food in this country and nobody is going to die of starvation. We may suffer a very real inconvenience if we have to do without wheaten bread, and I entirely agree with the Minister for Supplies that the maximum effort is desirable in order to avoid that inconvenience, but it is the most absurd hyperbole to talk about the dark spectre of starvation. We have more food in this country than the combined stomachs of the Irish people could hope to contain if we packed them with a ramrod for a very long time, but I agree that we should bend our best efforts towards avoiding a scarcity of wheaten bread. I think it is neither profitable nor desirable in an emergency situation to go into the arguments we have had about economics suitable to peace-time.

I have no doubt we shall have gorillas in this country who will "Ya" and so forth and protest loudly that this is a great reneging on the part of certain individuals in this country. Happily there are none such in this House, though sometimes one might be tempted to think there were. I am quite prepared to say to the Minister in this situation in which we find ourselves that what is important to determine, is not what each one would like best to do, but what is the best common denominator we can find amongst ourselves for the solution of the whole problem and then jointly to act upon it, because a decision upon which people can act is, in my opinion, very much more important than a learned discussion at this stage as to which economically is the best decision.

What is the problem? Let us, in our desire to secure unanimity of action, not simply plunge madly ahead without thought. Our consumption of wheat for human food in this country is approximately 480,000 to 500,000 tons per annum. That was the annual consumption of wheat in this country prior to the emergence of this crisis. That was based on a 70 per cent. off-take of flour. I understand that the off-take of flour has been increased to 80 per cent. and that it is quite practicable to raise it to 85 per cent., as is, I think, being done in England. They are offering 85 per cent. flour and natural straight-run flour. Suppose instead of talking about adding barley to the flour, which I think is a most mischievous suggestion to make, we talk of running an 85 per cent. off-take of flour. That means that all we require is 400,000 tons of wheat per annum. This year we planted 309,000 acres of wheat. The yield in 1939 was one ton per acre. It would be a mistake to assume that on the increased acreage we are likely to get as high a return, because the larger the acreage the more we are going to move out to the marginal wheat land, and the natural tendency of the wheat land which has been under wheat in years gone by is to have the yield drop where the supply of artificial manures is inadequate owing to the scarcity created by the crisis.

Suppose we say that our short-fall in wheat amounts to 100,000 tons. Ten good wheat cargoes will fill that deficiency, or 120,000 acres of wheat in this country. Let us resolve to get that 100,000 tons by either of those methods or by a combination of both. My inclination would be to go to the British Government now, with whom I understand an arrangement was made only a week ago to take all the bacon we will supply at 133/- per cwt., and say to them: "Will you swop some food for food? Will you undertake to give us one, two, three, four or five cargoes of wheat in the course of the next year out of your landings in consideration of our sending to you all the foodstuffs we can extract from our people by increased production over the same period?" I think it is probable that the British Government will undertake to deliver further deliveries or otherwise somehow to deliver in Ireland a certain minimum number of cargoes of wheat by which we may succeed in reducing our short-fall to something in the order of 30,000 or 40,000 tons.

The moment we get there we get to the point where the crisis is, so to say, minimised and we can reasonably say to the people, and I think the Government would find ready support in all parts of the House for it, "There is no need for panic. It may be that at the end of the year a little restriction will have to be put on the sale of bread and flour, but there is going to be no black bread and no mixture of oats or barley and there is nothing to get excited about". If everybody will pull his weight, we will go through all right and there is no need for our farmers to be buying eight or ten bags of flour, leaving the poor man without flour at all. Remember, the minute the word goes out to rural Ireland that the Minister for Supplies is going to put barley in the flour, every flour loft in Ireland will be swept clean in three days, and if you try to hold the flour in the shops they will tear you to pieces. That was a most unfortunate pronouncement to make. I do not believe it will ever be done; I do not believe the necessity will ever arise.

We are living long enough beside the British to know that if we have the good sense to go to them and say: "We do not want it to be said in this part of the world that we are adding barley to our bread. If you will help us out with a few cargoes of wheat, we will send you back something very useful to you in the new year, which we can do", I should be astonished if we could not get from the other side of the Atlantic before the end of the year a couple of cargoes of wheat to avoid the necessity of adding barley to the bread. How many thousand tons of wheat does the Minister expect to be short this year?

We will have to increase home production. We got 200,000 tons.

I mean until August.

In addition to the 200,000 tons from the Irish harvest, we want at least 200,000 tons.

We have to wait until the end of the cereal year. What short-fall do you expect in this cereal year until August next?

About a couple of months supply, but 20,000 might suffice under certain conditions.

About two cargoes. That will carry us over until August.

That is based on various assumptions.

Is it not more than 20,000 tons? Two months supply is 20,000.

If the Minister will tell us what the problem is. What is the problem? What does the Minister apprehend he will have to get between now and August to preserve the 100 per cent. wheaten flour?

There are so many considerations there that it is impossible to explain in a sentence. In calculating the position, we took various assumptions into account, assumptions as to the consumption of flour, as to the possibility of cargoes which are purchased arriving, as to the possibility of obtaining the full quantity of Irish wheat we have taken into our calculations and so on. But it is possible that by various devices we may succeed in getting in wheat which will bring us to August. There is nothing that the public can do about the position. So far as dealing with the situation until the end of August is concerned, that is a problem for the Department of Supplies. We may have to have an 85 per cent. extraction and we may have to have other arrangements as well in order to meet the situation. But it is the problem after August in respect of which public co-operation is required. That is the problem of increasing the production of wheat over and above last year by 300,000 tons.

I understood the Minister to say that he might have to incorporate barley in the flour before the end of this cereal year. I am trying to find out what short-fall he anticipates it may be necessary to make up by the use of barley. I am saying to him that if he could say with any degree of conviction: "I do not believe that is going to happen," he would greatly simplify his problem. He can determine precisely what the consumption of flour is going to be from this till the end of August. He has already taken steps to do that, because deliveries by millers are at present rigidly controlled to an exact and precise relation to the deliveries that were made last year. If you get ten tons in the month of January last year, you can get ten tons this year and no more. It behoves the shopkeepers to ration that out amongst their customers. There is an absolute bottle neck at the mills which is controlled. Therefore, I urge the Minister to revise his judgment in that matter and to seek co-operation to secure a full 100 per cent. wheaten flour by an 85 per cent. extraction from now until the end of the year.

So far as the new cereal year is concerned, it appears to me that if we only maintain our present acreage of wheat our problem is to get 100,000 tons of wheat and above that.

How can we get 300,000?

That is what I am trying to find out. I understand that the consumption of wheat in the country is 500,000 tons.

And we got 200,000, from last year's crop, from 305,000 acres.

Is that possible? Is it conceivably possible that the yield of wheat dropped from a ton an acre down to about 13 cwts?

That may be due to the withholding of wheat.

Take the amount of seed required.

Let me answer one Minister at a time. If it is due to the withholding of wheat or to seed requirements, must not that relieve the consumption of wheat from the mill?

Then that does not alter the necessity of 500,000 tons of wheat for human food. It merely means that, instead of passing through the mill, it finds its way into the people's stomachs partly through the mill and partly through this, the local grindstone.

If that is the explanation, it makes the position much easier.

The Minister says that if that explanation is correct, the position is much easier, but this is what we are trying to find out.

That was said already.

It may be our fault, it may be due to our stupidity, but stupid as we may be it is our right to get the information in this House in the form in which we can understand it. The Minister says that it may be due to retention of wheat for seed purposes. What do we want with 100,000 tons of seed?

You want 70,000 tons.

Yes, but we do not want 100,000 tons of seed more than in any other year. I think the Minister should have told us about this thing. Supposing he gets, next year, 400,000 acres of wheat, has he consulted the Minister for Agriculture with a view to determining what quantity of seed will be required from our home supply after we have availed of all available supplies that can be tapped? Can the Minister tell us?

No. The quantity I am concerned with is the quantity that comes to the mills.

Surely, if we are in a state of acute emergency, and if we are asking the people to plant another 100,000 acres——

It is more than that. The Deputy is talking about planting another 100,000 acres. We want at least 400,000 or 500,000 acres.

Surely, we have the right to ask where we are in this connection. If people, who have wheat in their barns, to place at the disposal of the State, are to be asked to plant another 300,000 or 400,000 acres of wheat, we ought to ask where we are before we ask these people to make sacrifices? We should not put ourselves in the position of asking the community to do something that is going to entail a great sacrifice for them unless we are satisfied that that sacrifice is necessary? What makes this side of the House uneasy is that we are not satisfied in our own minds that the Government know what they are doing. It appears to us that they are floundering about: on Monday everything is lovely in the garden; on Tuesday the spectre of famine appears; on Wednesday, the way to meet the situation is to plant 500,000 acres of wheat; and on Thursday, if they look around, they find that it is not necessary to plant that amount at all. Could the Government not find out what is the concrete picture that has eventually crystallised before their eyes and what are their resolved plans to deal with the situation, and could they not inform us to that effect? To-day we have not got that. It is not right to be asking for a united effort and a suspension of controversy and criticism on the say-so of the Government in a matter of this kind. It is fair to do that when the Government is in a position to say: "We cannot tell you the reasons we are asking for your co-operation in such-and-such a connection because these matters are confidential, and you will have to trust us because the matters are so confidential that we cannot communicate them outside"; but this matter of our wheat supply is quite different.

It is really quite simple.

The Minister may seek to escape from the position by becoming facetious, but the matter is not so simple as he would try to lead us to believe; it is so complicated that the impression on our minds is one of grave anxiety that the Government itself does not know what it is up to and is floundering around in a half-baked, bewildered condition, clamouring for people to do all sorts of things without telling the House: "This is the situation and these are the proposals we have in mind to deal with it, and we should be glad to know what proposals you have to suggest so as to have a common policy to overcome our common difficulty." Now listen to me. Three months ago I asked the Minister for Agriculture, who is sitting there, what people ought to do about pigs, and the general impression I got from him was this: "I think you ought to let the pigs go down; we are not going to be able to get the British to take them from us, and it would be better to let their numbers decline." That is the impression I got from the Minister for Agriculture. I now discover that, two and a half months later, after we had let our pigs disappear, selling them at 88/- a cwt., the British will take all the bacon we can offer at 133/- a cwt.

Surely, that is not the fault of the Minister for Agriculture?

Does not the Taoiseach himself feel that that shows some kind of ineptitude?

Somewhere.

I said, on the last occasion, that either Lord Woolton or Dr. Ryan was daft. Now I have come to the conclusion that, not alone was one or other of them daft, but that both of them were daft. When you have the position of these people solemnly agreeing two months ago that one fellow will not buy and the other fellow will not sell, and when, two months afterwards, when the pigs are all gone, you have the position that one fellow wants to buy what is not there and the other fellow wants to sell what he has destroyed, would you not say that both of them were daft?

One of them, at any rate.

Well, we have got somewhere. I should say that 50 per cent. agreement between myself and the Taoiseach is an event. One of them is "daft"! I wonder would the Taoiseach go so far as to think or say that half of what his Ministers say in regard to this matter is "daft" as well? If they would only think the matter out, act calmly and resolutely, and realise that everybody in this country is prepared to help them in anything that they can satisfy the people is necessary to be done, instead of crying "havoc" as they have been doing, they will be able to get something done and will be able to get it done without doing our economic life a desperate injury. Remember, we may get so anxious to prevent a German blockade becoming effective upon us that we will impose upon ourselves a blockade far worse than Adolf Hitler can impose upon us. There is a large amount of imports that we have got to get, and the only way we can get these imports is by paying for them with our exports, visible or invisible. Many things happened here in the last few years to interfere with our export trade. Some were due to our own fault and others to causes outside our control, but we want to build up our wealth and we have to maintain exports in order to pay for the goods we import.

Or produce them ourselves.

There are many imports that we cannot produce here. We cannot produce tea, or petrol.

We cannot produce tea or petrol, or iron, as the Deputy says. We cannot plough without iron, unless we go back to the wooden plough, and for all these things that we import we have got to pay.

Have we not the "loy"?

The Deputy suggests getting wooden loys but I would not suggest that he would use one. We have got to export to pay for the raw materials we require for finished products. If by an impetuous decision we destroy our capacity to produce animal feeding stuffs, we might destroy our entire live stock export trade, with results that would be absolutely disastrous to every element in this country. That export trade consists of pigs, bacon, meat, cattle, sheep, poultry and eggs. I think the Minister would be justified at present in giving full notice to the public that after 31st August no American corn will be brought to this country and that any bottoms we could get in the meantime would be used to carry wheat and some other commodities.

That notice was given already.

No, there are six corn boats down at the North Wall now.

That is a different point.

It may be. If these corn boats were filled with wheat our situation would be different now. The cost of corn delivered in Dublin to-day is so high, that any man who would spend good money on American corn now and expect to get it over here would be looked upon as being "daft". Remember that as we increase the acreage of wheat to a figure that is necessary, at the expense of barley and oats, we may find ourselves confronted with an animal feeding problem in the autumn or in the following spring, which might impose on the people the necessity to slaughter their live stock, as happened in Denmark. That would cripple the position of people on the land for years to come. I recognise that the first charge on the land is the feeding of the people, but I do not think, no matter what we do, that there can be any question of starvation. Do not let us get into a state of panic or turn our backs on economic sanity. I know that it is a difficult thing when pleading for economic sanity to make any headway with the public, but we, who are responsible for the country, can take the stand that there should be a generous desire to meet the Government's will without persuading them to do themselves or the country serious injury in the process.

The problem of producing animal feeding stuffs is one of vital importance, and one upon which the economic existence of this country depends. Do not let us lose sight of that in the tillage problem determined on for the coming cereal year. When we approach the filling of whatever gaps there may be in any visible supply of crops, we have to realise that we have got to do something more than go to the people living on the land and tell them to produce. The people living on the land are as patriotic as any section of the community. There is, however, no use in asking them to do their utmost if their reply is: "I cannot sow seed on my land because no one will give me seed to sow. I cannot go into a seed merchant to ask for seed unless I have cash to pay for it or unless you are prepared to get me credit." In previous years when merchants bought seeds or manures they usually got credit from their wholesaler, who imported on terms of credit and passed that along to the farmers. This year manures had to be paid for in seven days. I have not yet seen what terms seed merchants are imposing for the payment of their accounts. There will be hundreds of good farmers who are willing and anxious to produce who will be unable to do so, because they have not the ready money to pay for the raw materials of their industry. I put it to the Minister that we ought to meet that situation now.

Even if he will not contemplate a long term policy for dealing with this matter of credit, we will have to adopt some emergency policy which will have its imperfections but which is a vital and inherent part of our tillage scheme. If the Government wants to do it it must be by some system of credit. Supposing you laid it down that the Government would instruct the millers to take the wheat and send the cheque in payment to the Government, who would deduct the amount of the loan for seeds and manures and pay over the balance to the farmers, that would be one way of providing credit. I dealt in great detail with the matter of credit on a motion Deputy Belton had before the House some weeks ago, whereby the long term problem could be dealt with. There is no use in imagining that you can deal with land by a wave of the hand. You have to face a practical problem. There are already schemes in operation in the Department of Agriculture for supplying agricultural implements. There is a scheme by which spraying machines and mowing machines are supplied, the Department paying merchants and the farmers paying the Department by instalments.

I put it to the Government that that scheme should be extended forthwith to the purchase of tractors. I understand there is a proposal before the Department of Agriculture at the present time to finance the purchase of tractors and equipment on the instalment plan. Surely it would be a good thing if 200 or 250 tractors could be got out through the country in time to have ploughing done. I believe that there are tractors here awaiting delivery, if credit is available between those who want to sell and those who want the tractors. It would be in the interests of the existing scheme if the Department decided to do that, but do not treat the unfortunate tractor people or the individual tractor owner as regards the supply of fuel oil as you treated the men who are already in the business. You fixed the month of November as the basic month for persons who own tractors. November is a month when some 80 per cent. of them are not in use.

That is one of the months with the highest delivery.

It was an unfortunate selection.

It may be a month of the highest delivery of kerosene to shopkeepers but not for tractors.

It was delivered to shopkeepers.

If you gave an allocation it would be right to choose months when the most kerosene was given to them. If supplies were given corresponding to the largest months of 1940 that would be the right way.

Mr. Morrissey

Do not fall into that. Most of the tractor owners do not buy their oil from a shopkeeper.

The Minister says to me: "They must now have enough, because that is the month in which the tractor owners get the largest deliveries of kerosene."

In that month there was the largest delivery of kerosene to retailers.

That is another of the statements which can have seven different meanings; everybody takes his own meaning, and in six months' time the Minister will say that the particular meaning he was thinking of is the true one. The present basis of allocation, if maintained, will leave half the tractor owners idle. It may be that the Minister was misled, or that the tractor owners are being misled, but somebody is being misled.

I promise the Deputy that no tractor used for agricultural production will be left idle, so long as there is kerosene in the country.

Is the Minister aware that that is actually happening at present?

We did not curtail the deliveries of kerosene through a whim.

The Minister can say no more. He has said that no man who has a tractor will be left idle, and any man in that position can write a postcard to the Minister, and so long as there is kerosene in the country he will obtain a supply. That is fair; no reasonable man can ask more. The Minister says that the tractors will not be allowed to stand idle for want of oil so long as there is oil in the country.

Any idle tractor owner should know now that a postcard to the Minister for Supplies will get him the fuel oil from somewhere and keep him moving. We cannot expect the Minister for Supplies to be like an angel flying all over the country dropping kerosene into every tractor in the land: the best he can do is to say that, if he hears of a shortage, he will take the most expeditious action to remedy it. If he does that, so far as I am concerned, he is doing the best he can.

Would he look into the tractor scheme a little more expeditiously than he has looked into some other things and implement it if possible? May I put it to the Government that, if they are to succeed in this tillage proposal, they should take charge of the taxes and restrictions at present imposed on the raw materials of the agricultural industry? They should let the farmer get his raw materials as expeditiously and as cheaply as possible. If the Government want to subsidise the production of certain agricultural implements or raw materials, they ought to try to do it by subsidy rather than by constraining the individual farmer to meet the cost himself.

Lastly, might I put it to the Government that I do not believe the farmers of this country desire anybody to institute blackmail of the community on their behalf in an hour of national emergency. I believe the farmers are prepared to take their coats off and do their best for the community, if the community requires their services to protect them from a major disaster. But I ask this. During the last ten years, from time to time the Fianna Fáil Party wanted certain industrial goods produced in this country. What did they do? They did not go out to a group of industrialists and say: "Produce that." They called the industrialists in and said: "We want electric burners or helium gas, or whatever it is, produced in this country." The industrialists said: "Very well. We will produce it for you, if you want it, but we wish to make a profit on it." Then the Department said: "What is it going to cost?" and the industrialists worked out the cost. Then the Government put on a tariff, sometimes up to 75 per cent. and frequently a quota, and they then said to the industrialists: "Charge the price now to the community that will get you that profit, and we will see that the community pays that price, or they will not get the commodity at all."

I am not asking the Government to do that for the farmer: I do not think any section of the community has a right to make a demand of that kind. However, I am asking the Government to approach the question of the sacrifices that they are asking the agricultural community to make in meeting their present requirements, and to provide some sort of contribution to their cost, either by way of increased price for their product or by way of direct subsidy. The British Government, recognising the necessity to increase tillage so rapidly as they did, entitled the farmer to some compensation in respect of the land broken up and they give the farmer in England £2 per acre in respect of every acre of land broken up for extra tillage since the emergency began. The Government here has pushed up the price of wheat steadily to 40/-. I do not know whether 40/- for wheat will make it a more attractive crop than barley or oats at the prices which are likely to rule for those commodities next autumn; but, if you want wheat and if you are irrevocably determined to pay no more than that for it, why not make a contribution from the Exchequer?

There is a great deal to be said for the Exchequer contribution. If you are going to subsidise the price of wheat, I think it is an undesirable thing to require the bread eater to bear the whole burden of the subsidy, as the bread eater here is normally the poorer element in the community and, so far as the average farmer is concerned, I do not think he wishes to be sucking the blood of the poorer element. It would be a great relief if the amount for the extra price requisite for wheat growing could be made available by the community as a whole. It is not the bread eaters who are asking the farmer to grow wheat: it is the community—they want him to grow wheat for political reasons, for economic or strategic reasons, which are of common interest to every section of the community, whether they be the bread eaters or not. Surely it is the community which ought to bear the burden of the extra cost which may be involved in offering an inducement to the farmers to increase production.

The Deputy is aware of the fact that there is a motion on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Belton relating to the price of wheat.

It will be taken tomorrow, if the discussion on this motion has concluded.

Discussion of it should not be anticipated.

I would be sorry to do that but, nevertheless, I think it should be open to discuss the production of 300,000 necessary acres of wheat, having adverted to the steps required to be taken to produce that extra quantity, and it seems to me that we have got to do that if we seriously intend to deal with the problem of extra production at all. I suggest to the Minister that these things should be considered and, remember, time is of the essence. The sooner reassuring pronouncements are made, the sooner an effort can be made; the sooner it is made clear who it is is asked to grow wheat and who it is is asked to grow animal feeding stuffs, the sooner the work can be put in hand.

It will be an awful mistake for us if the impression is spread throughout the country that farmers unable to grow wheat are being asked to grow wheat in West Cork, in Kerry, in Donegal and in places of that kind. If they get the idea that the Government expects them to grow wheat, they will certainly throw their hands in the air and say that the men do not know their jobs.

It is idle to suggest that farmers in particular districts should be asked to grow oats, barley, wheat—in some places two, and in other cases, all three crops—on one farm. It ought to be acknowledged at once that certain parts are not suitable for certain crops, and it would be foolish for individuals with farms suitable for one crop to waste that land in trying to grow an unsuitable crop. The agricultural instructors are there and ought to be in a position to advise. The Minister should seriously consider that the very vital problem is this: is 40/- for wheat a price that will make wheat a more attractive crop than barley or oats— either of which is more commonly grown and more readily understood by the majority of our farmers? If it is not a sufficient price to evoke the extra acreage, then there will be no use in lamenting next September. The right way to deal with the situation now is to offer say £2 an acre for every acre under wheat, or the proportion of acres under wheat or something of that kind, so as to induce the farmers of the country to grow the crops that the Government want on the land that is best suited to them.

The farmers want no charity but a price for what they produce.

Charity my foot! The farmers want a profit on their land and so long as they get that the work will be done. It is not reasonable to ask the farmers to produce their crops for less than what it costs to produce them. I do not know what the British farmer calls the £2 grant that is being given to him to break up the land of England. I do not know whether he calls it charity, profit or what, but I think there are very few farmers in this country who will be too proud to take what the farmers in Great Britain are glad to get. If there are any farmers in this country who are such fools as to be too proud to take up a scheme that is good enough for the farmers of England, then they ought not to be on the land at all, and if they start talking about charity then, so far as I am concerned, they can boil themselves. Charity my foot!

The sooner we attend to this problem the sooner we may hope to get results. I press on the Government that, unless they are prepared to be frank and honest with the people now they will not get the co-operation that they must have if the difficulties which confront the country are to be overcome. I suggest that, in the first place, they should put their own house in order, and, secondly, that in future they should make it the rule that, instead of trying to hold back the truth from the people, they should be honest and frank with them. If they do that they will find that the people will go more than half way to meet them.

I suppose that, in present circumstances, it is very easy to find material for a speech if one wants to make the subject of the speech the scarcity of certain supplies and the difficulty of obtaining them. Living in this country, in present circumstances, it is very easy for each and every one of us to put a fairly precise valuation on the difficulties confronting any Government in office to-day in the matter of obtaining supplies of the commodities which are essential for the sustenance of our people and the preservation of our industries. We will not, however, render any great service to the people by making speeches which are calculated to create panic or fear in the public mind that we are on the eve of very serious happenings from a supply point of view. I think the best service we can render the people, in existing circumstances, is to tell them not merely our deficiencies in the matter of supplies, but of the essential basic strength which resides within the nation in the matter of its ability to provide a large quantity of its own requirements. We can see now, in 1941, the wisdom of the policy of concentrating upon tillage, of telling our people that it was good national housekeeping to till the land to its utmost capacity, of giving our people a bias towards producing food to meet the requirements of the nation, and of showing them that, if that could be done in almost every other country in Europe, it could also be done to advantage in Ireland, not merely from the standpoint of the farmer, but from the point of view of building up an organically healthy agricultural economy here.

If I have any complaint to make at the moment about the Government's tillage policy it is that the Government have not told the people with sufficient force and enthusiasm that tillage is not merely a desirable policy, but that it is a profitable and patriotic policy: that if it pays every other country in Europe to till its land, it ought to pay our farmers to do the same. We, in this country, have suffered unfortunately from a ranching bias which enabled us to multiply the area under grass, to multiply the number of bullocks and to divide our population by a very substantial figure. In this crisis when we are advocating the production of more wheat and the intensification of our tillage policy, we ought, through the newspapers, the wireless, public meetings and the churches tell the people that, when it pays almost every country in Europe to till from 60 to 70 per cent. of its land, the same kind of policy ought to be a profitable activity for our farmers. We ought to do that, because many of our people, unfortunately, believe, due to the ranching tradition that we have in this country, that it is highly speculative to engage in tillage, while every other country in Europe realises that tillage is a branch of agricultural activity which renders them a substantial return.

I would hope that, in the course of the campaign to intensify tillage, and particularly the production of wheat, the Government will utilise every means at their disposal—that they will utilise the good-will of people even outside their own Party—to bring home to the people, and the farming community in particular, the commercial benefits of tillage, and of wheat growing in particular, as well as the national advantages to be derived from activities of that kind. I agree, of course, with Deputy Dillon that the consideration of a programme of that kind is inevitably related to the question of price, and that, therefore, we must ensure, if the farmer is to be asked to produce more wheat, oats, barley or any other kind of crop, that in reason he is entitled to expect a remunerative return for his labour. Even though that may cost us something, either through the Exchequer or increased prices for the consumers, that, I suggest, can be met by an adjustment of values and of incomes. Nevertheless, it seems to me to be desirable to tell the farmer that, if he grows food for the nation, the nation will ensure him an adequate return for his labour.

I listened with considerable care to the speech made this evening by the Minister for Supplies on the subject of petrol. With him, I take the view that it is extremely difficult for us, in our circumstances, to be able to regulate either the quantity of petrol that we will get or the intervals at which we will get supplies. While sympathetic with the Minister's difficulties in that respect, I thought he made a most unconvincing case in respect to the delayed announcement of the shortage of petrol. I am not concerned at all with people who use cars for luxury purposes, or with those who drive cars for non-essential purposes, but I am concerned with the people to whom petrol is a tool, in the same way that a hammer, a chisel or a plough is a tool. I am concerned with those who see in the shortage of petrol the possibility of losing their livelihood. I think that the Minister, when he saw the red flag up in respect to petrol supplies, might well have told the people that if they were going to tax their cars for the first quarter, the first half or for the whole of the year, they were going to do so in the knowledge that there was grave danger they might not be able to use their cars during the first quarter or first half of the year.

It would have been an unwise statement to make.

It might be unwise, but at least it would have been honest.

A statement such as the Deputy has suggested would have been dishonest.

Let me put it to the Minister that it would not be so, because what happened was this: In the first place, the Minister had instructions issued to the Gárdaí to tell the people that, if they did not tax their cars on the first or second day of the month, it would be an offence.

That they must not use petrol.

Therefore, the pressure was to tax the cars.

Or lay them up.

To tax the cars or lay them up. Nobody snaps off taxing his car without some good reason. You might well assume that, even as a matter of habit, if they taxed a car last year they will tax it this year, provided they have the necessary cash.

Would the Deputy agree that the man who did not intend to tax his car should not be allowed to use petrol?

I am not concerned with him at all.

We were.

What I suggest to the Minister is that that fellow is the Minister's only excuse for a terribly thin statement this evening.

Oh, no. It had been advocated in the newspapers that people should not tax their cars.

Maybe the Minister does not agree with me, but when the debate is over, we can have two points of view. The Minister can have his and I will have mine. The ordinary man probably does not like to tell the Minister for Supplies in soldierly language what he thinks of the Minister's action, but he tells Deputies, and here is what people are saying: "The Minister for Local Government said to the Guards, ‘Make these people tax their cars. If they do not tax them, they cannot use them'." Consequently, folk who are in the habit of taxing cars said: "We had better not take the usual week or ten days this year, but had better tax our cars promptly." Under that pressure, they taxed cars, but at that stage the person desirous of complying with that instruction on 1st or 2nd January did not know that he was going to get a quarter of a gallon for a one-gallon coupon.

Take the case of a person with a Ford eight or ten horse-power car. He got eight gallons a month and two gallons is his ration for the month of January. Who in the name of heaven would dream of taxing a car and paying insurance on it for the privilege of getting two gallons to drive the car for a month? Nobody outside a lunatic asylum would do it, but what happened was that these people had pressure put upon them to tax their cars or lay them up. They were not told that the red flag was up in regard to the petrol supply, but, when pressure had been sufficiently applied, they were told: "Now, lads, the eight gallons which you formerly got and which became 12 gallons under the supplementary ration, will come down to two gallons." The Minister knows perfectly well that if he says to a man: "If you tax your car and pay insurance on it, I will give you a two-gallon tin of petrol a month," nobody in his sane senses would dream of doing it and anybody who does it should be mentally examined, but that, in fact, is what the Minister did in this matter.

It was probably a good ruse from the point of view of the Exchequer because the Road Fund will benefit considerably, but it does not seem to me to be playing the game with the public, even though I am not very much concerned with that section of the public which uses cars for the purpose of pleasure or uses cars when other facilities are available. I am concerned mainly, as I said, with the person to whom petrol is a tool, his means of employment. If there is a shortage of supplies, that person will run the risk of losing his employment. There may be even a scrapping of motor vehicles and you may find a motor-driver in the position in which he loses his employment and is unable to resume it at a later stage because of changes in the methods of organisation of the firms with which such a man is employed. I make this appeal to the Minister, that, if at all possible, he should try to reserve petrol for those firms and those industries in which the provision of petrol is necessary for the maintenance of workers in employment. If he does that, I suppose we can put up with a certain amount of inconvenience in respect of a shortage of petrol for other people.

Deputy Hickey asked the Minister what efforts were being made in the matter of shipping. When the emergency situation was sighted and immediately after the war had broken out and when there were many more neutral countries with shipping available than there are to-day, I distinctly recollect being one of a deputation from this Party to the Minister to urge that the Government ought to purchase shipping. I remember making the case that shipping could be bought cheaper in October, 1939, than it would be bought for another generation. It was possible then to buy shipping from neutral countries because the neutral countries were much more numerous then than now and it was possible to buy shipping in the western hemisphere; but, at that stage, apparently not being used to the idea of a mercantile marine of our own, the Department and the Minister did not appreciate the benefits of having our own shipping and the benefits of being able to utilise our own ships to go to countries where we could get our raw materials and our essential commodities and to transport those raw materials and essential commodities to this country.

Now we are faced with the position, thanks to the fact that the war has extended, that there are fewer and fewer, and probably will be still fewer, neutrals. It is becoming increasingly difficult for us to purchase shipping, but if the Minister and the Government had been wide awake 15 months ago, they would have done much more in the matter of trying to buy shipping than they can possibly do now, even with the best of intention on their part; but if there is still any hope left in respect of either buying or leasing shipping from another country, some steps ought to be taken to buy or to lease that shipping. I do not know what the international position in connection with the ships of belligerent nations laid up in neutral ports is, and I do not know whether it is possible for another neutral country to purchase these ships, but if it is possible, and if any arrangement could be made in that connection, some consideration should be given by the Government to that situation, in the hope that in that way we might augment the very small fleet we have to-day and which tends to become smaller with the risks of war.

The Minister, while he did not survery extensively the position in connection with our raw materials, I think, made it clear from his introductory remarks that the question of our raw materials was a question about which we had reason to feel some anxiety, and particularly in certain directions. Everybody knows that that is so, but I am afraid that we are losing valuable time and I am afraid that our organisation in respect of the purchase of raw materials is extremely weak. I want to appeal to the Minister to do now, while there is yet time, what I am afraid he will be forced to do when the benefits accruing from it will be negligible. At present you may have half a dozen firms engaged in soap making, the manufacture of iron goods or the manufacture of any other type of goods. Each of these firms has its own connections in Britain and each tries to get supplies from different sources, having long trading accounts with these people. It is true, of course, that, in the future, an exporter in Britain will have to get a licence from the British Government to send materials to this country, but I suggest to the Minister that he might give consideration to the grouping of these industries in a vertical manner.

That has been done wherever it is practicable—in the case of soap, for example.

I mentioned soap just because it occurred to me.

In every case in which there is an advantage in doing that, it has been done already.

The Minister is aware that some firms had raw materials but that others had not, and I suggest to him that, as far as possible, these industries should be got together and that somebody—preferably the Department—should be authorised to purchase on their behalf. The Department can use influences which individual firms cannot. It has a standard and stature of prestige that individual firms, or a group of individual firms, can never attain. There are agencies of influence open to the Department which are not open to an individual firm or a group of firms. If that has been done to any extent, I am afraid it has not been done to any great extent and the Minister might give consideration to the question of extending that arrangement.

No matter what difficulties they are in, the British people are not fools. If they think it advantageous in a war situation, notwithstanding their colossal greatness in many respects, to create a Department of food and to say: "Nobody in the world shall sell food to anybody in Britain but the British Controller of Food," they must have very good reasons for doing so. They do that because of their experience in the last war. Britain did in the first few months of this war what she stumbled upon in the fourth year of the last war. She is doing that because of her experience and because it is profitable to the British people. It is not so profitable to our farmers, who are trying to sell agricultural produce to Britain, but there are advantages in the establishment of import boards of that kind, preferably under departmental auspices. The Department should lend all the assistance it can and, if possible, make the purchases, with the necessary technical assistance from the industry.

Another matter which has, so far, completely escaped attention is the collection of waste material. Practically nothing has been done in that respect.

Everything that is required is being done.

I would regard this as a Garden of Eden, and not Leinster House, if I believed that. I still believe this is Leinster House.

Can the Deputy mention a problem in relation to which it has not been done?

The Minister must know that in every country there is inevitable waste—mainly, domestic waste, but, frequently, industrial waste—and that, in times of scarcity, when the necessary materials cannot be got, it is often advantageous to collect this material and use it for the purpose of producing an article which it may be difficult to get or which may be obtainable only at a very high price. There is a fraternity in Dublin prepared to buy all sorts of second-hand goods and second-hand material. Commercially they are an astute race and I suggest to the Minister that he should give some consideration to their methods. If they find it advantageous to collect waste and scrap, which can be converted into useful articles, the nation should give some consideration to a similar scheme. If one could see the end of the war and if we could be assured that we would pass through it as we are passing through it to-day, one might say that it would not be worth while bothering about these things. But the Minister cannot give us that assurance. When pressed for information to-day, he said that he could only give it if he knew what course the war would take. Is he so satisfied with the course it is going to take that he can ignore the collection of waste material?

Any waste material that could be usefully collected for re-manufacture is being collected for re-manufacture.

Does that apply in respect of domestic refuse?

I saw people to-day gathering snow and throwing it into a cart. It seemed to me that it would be a much better proposition to be gathering from the refuse bins certain commodities which are consigned to these bins.

For what purpose?

For the purpose of re-manufacture, after examination has shown that re-manufacture is possible. It may be said that these materials may be left there for a few days but, in a few days, they will be in some pit. Having regard to our shortage of raw materials, we might very well extract a certain amount of material from sources of that kind. The Minister made reference to the possibility of substituting native supplies for imported material. He did not develop that point to any great extent. I should like to hear from the Minister at an early date a review of the efforts made to substitute native materials for imported materials.

It does not seem to me that the State is doing anything whatever in that connection. It may be that the State has ambitious plans in mind but it seems to me that reliance is being placed all the time on the individual speculator or private capitalist or on the group who will go to Lord Edward Street and say that they are thinking of exploiting some particular thing. They will receive a very courteous reception and the Government benediction will be forthcoming for their intentions. Then they will go out and, perhaps, carry out their exploitation at a cost of a few thousand pounds. They might be exploiting a deposit which would be worth the investment of tens of thousands of pounds. There ought to be some kind of State survey of these possibilities and these resources with a view to utilising the developing arm of the State for their exploitation. If I were satisfied that native resources were being fully exploited and that efforts were being made to find substitutes for imported materials, I would feel much happier about the maintenance of the supply of raw materials for our secondary industries than I am.

A few years ago reference was made to the establishment of a research council. I do not know that anything has been done since by that research council. I am not sure whether it was the Minister himself or one of his colleagues who told the people down in the Bog of Allen during the last election that he had a report from the research council to the effect that turf would be made into rubber balls and rubber hot-water bottles and things of that kind. Apart from a report of that kind—obviously used for election purposes—nothing seems to have emerged from this research council. Has it done anything at all? If it has not, there is no purpose in maintaining it.

Tell that one to Deputy Dillon.

The fellow in the Bog of Allen may be a bogman but he has his feet firmly on the soil, nevertheless, and he did not believe that he was going to get balls to play with as a result of voting for the Government candidates at the last election.

That was why I told you to tell it to Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Dillon has an inventive genius which is all his own. If there was any purpose in establishing a research council, we should be told what it is doing. If it is merely exploring theories over and over, it ought to be wound up. Now, more than ever, it ought to be charged with the task in respect to supplies of which we are short of trying to find some native substitute for imported materials. A discovery of that kind in existing circumstances might well make us independent of imports of that nature in future.

Another point I would like to mention is the question of prices. The Minister may tell us, of course, that the Prices Commission is there, that the Department of Supplies will investigate all cases of overcharging, and that any such complaints will be dealt with with a view to ensuring that the consumer is not fleeced, but everybody knows that it is a common practice in rural areas in particular and in small towns where commodities are short, even temporarily, for the consumer to be asked to pay a halfpenny and a penny and twopence more for the article. The explanation given for an increase in price of that kind is either that there is a shortage which possibly may not be made good or that prices have gone up. I think the Minister should indicate definitely, so far as prices are concerned, what the maximum prices are for various commodities and that there should be emphasis on the fact that if any charges in excess of those are made, drastic action will be taken against those responsible. In the past few days complaints have reached me from a number of areas throughout the country, alleging that the prices fixed for commodities are not being adhered to and that persons are being charged much more than those prices. These people, apparently, have been "fobbed off" with the reason for the increase that the commodity is scarce or that there has been an authorised increase in price. In a situation of that kind I feel it is the weak and the poor and the helpless who are paying the highest price. The rich and the well-to-do will say: "I will make further inquiries into this". Usually people will not try to exploit such people, but it is the poor and the weak and especially those who depend on small weekly accounts with shopkeepers who have to pay fancy prices for goods which may be sold to wealthier people at lesser prices.

The only other point I wish to make in conclusion is that we in this country, not without considerable sacrifices for ourselves, have nevertheless been able to maintain our neutrality in a Europe over which war is raging. To be spared the horrors of what is happening in other countries is something which our people greatly appreciate. I think, notwithstanding our differences on the question of supplies or the steps which have been taken to deal with the question of supplies, it is desirable at all costs that the unity which has made it possible to preserve that strict neutrality should be maintained. I think the Government ought to realise, however, that if other countries can spend millions and millions on war and instruments of death and destruction, we ought to be prepared to pay a price for the maintenance of our neutrality here. That price need not be a high one so far as we are concerned. In many respects it involves merely a change in our technique, a change in our organisation and an abandonment of methods which, useless in peace times, have proved to be much more useless in war times.

There is another aspect of the maintenance of our neutrality that is important, that is, that in a time when prices are rising, when unemployment is tending to become still more aggravated, when the lot of the poor, helpless people in the country is becoming more difficult, the Government should step in and say that they regard it as part of the price which we must pay for the maintenance of neutrality to lift up these people, to increase their sustenance and to equip them, as far as the resources of the State will permit, with the wherewithal to purchase the necessaries of life in these difficult times. Expenditure of that type— nationally beneficial expenditure because it is redistributed expenditure— would be not only economically advantageous to the country but, in addition, would help to sustain the morale of our people and enable each and every citizen to know that in this time of crisis it was not the case of the strongest being able to protect themselves but that a nation with a Constitution such as ours was doing its best within the limit of its resources to look after all its citizens and particularly its weakest citizens.

There are a few matters to which I would like to refer in this debate. Firstly, as regards the petrol shortage, we are concerned, I suggest, with all means of transport. Recently throughout the country we had lorries taken up by the military for military use. I would suggest that some of the buses should be taken up for military use as the Minister says they are burning fuel oil. That would relieve some of the shortage of petrol.

Fuel oil buses operate in Dublin only.

One would expect that there would be some effort made to have some proper control of the transport of this country particularly in view of the shortage of petrol and the probable shortage of coal. I will take, as an example, one town in my constituency, the town of Cobh. You cannot go any further unless you go to America. There are 11 buses and ten trains running into that town to-day, running side by side, each starting at the same time. If the railway company change their time-table to-day the bus company will change their time-table the following morning. Roughly, it means that there are 80 gallons of petrol a day consumed in taking passengers in buses to and from Cobh along a route where a train runs beside them for the full length.

If there is anything more foolish than that, I do not know what it is. There was a great deal of discussion when the bus companies were being taken over by the railway companies. We all understood at that time that the buses were going to be used as "feeders" for the railway, that that was going to be the sum and substance of their activities. Take Youghal as another example. There are five or six trains running to and from Youghal every day and five or six buses travelling the same road, side by side. If any transport is needed there, one bus travelling from Whitegate via Ballycotton and through Cloyne, delivering its passengers either in Mogeely or Midleton would meet the entire needs. If there is a shortage of petrol and if there are essential suppliers going to be cut off of petrol let us get rid of luxuries first. I maintain that it is luxury to run ten trains and ten buses per day into a town of 5,000 inhabitants. If the 5,000 of them were millionaires and if they had for a hobby travelling in buses or trains they would not pay for that service. If there is going to be a curtailment in the supplies of petrol I suggest that we should start there, start with the luxuries. Another matter upon which I should like to touch is our supplies of raw materials from abroad, particularly iron and steel. We cannot do without them, and still we have this extraordinary position; we have exported, since this war started, about 70,000 tons of scrap iron, and we have lying in Haulbowline since this war started plant and machinery for converting that into bullets. I am well aware that one of the principal directors of Irish Steel, who owns that plant and machinery, is the sole exporter of scrap iron from this country, with a royalty or commission, I understand, of about 5/- a ton. I would respectfully suggest to the Minister that, if we want essential supplies here, that plant and machinery should be put working, and that that plant and machinery should be converting that scrap iron into bullets for use here instead of begging foreigners for the bullets and not getting them half the time. The Minister should prohibit the export of scrap iron.

The next matter upon which I should like to touch is the question of our bread and food supplies. I am not going to follow Deputy Dillon. I think this country knows Deputy Dillon at his true worth. We all know what to think of the would-be Minister who could stand up here three months after the war started and declare solemnly that the price of the co-operation of his Party with Fianna Fáil was that we blow up the beet factories and abolish the wheat lunacy. We all know what to think of him, and his suggestion to-night of going to John Bull with your hat in your hand for ten shiploads of wheat to feed our people is the best joke yet. We all know what the position was during the last war. Probably Deputy Dillon was in too sheltered a position to feel it, but we all saw black bread. We all saw bread made of some 50 per cent. black oats, a share of barley and a sprinkling of wheat, and we all ate it. I remember after the war we tried to feed calves on it and it killed them all. We got that from Britain at a period when 250,000 of our people were fighting in Flanders for her. How much flour or wheat do you think we are going to get from her to-day, and what is going to be the price? Is it going to be the ports or is it going to be man-power? So much for Deputy Dillon's idea of ten shiploads of wheat from our neighbours across the water. I would say this much, that if we are going to get 100 per cent. of our bread requirements here we will have to devise a scheme by which our farmers are going to get the seeds and manures on credit. I have been for a number of years at this job. I have here the minutes of a meeting between the Flour Millers Association and the Beet Growers Association on 26th October, 1939. At that time we had put up a scheme to the Millers Association by which they would give credit to the farmers for seed wheat on the same basis as the Sugar Company are giving credit for manures and seeds. Here was the discussion:—

"Mr. Hallinan: The next item is credits. There is no hope of our giving credits for seeds and manures?

"Mr. Corry: Can you not give the same credit facilities as the Sugar Company?

"Mr. Hallinan: If the mills gave credit to the farmers they would still have no guarantee that the produce of that seed would be delivered to them.

"Mr. Corry: If all the wheat sown was bought by the Flour Millers Association, could it not be done then?

"Mr. Hallinan: If you can arrange that with the Department we can then do something for you."

That discussion took place in October, 1939. In January, 1940, those proposals were put up to the Minister for Supplies, and turned down. They were as follows:

"Certain of our members have again this year been unable to utilise to the fullest extent their own drying plant, and thus have added to the cost of production. In those circumstances, I have again to submit that the matter should be dealt with on the following basis: That the drying of wheat should be restricted to the holders of flour-milling licences, or those traders who are under contract with such holders of flour-milling licences."

Those proposals were put up in January, 1940, and turned down. When we looked for an extra price for our wheat last year, we were informed that we would have to make a little sacrifice, that the agricultural community should be prepared to make a little sacrifice in this matter, and that the only hope of keeping the 4-lb. loaf at 1/- was that the farmer would have to grow wheat at 35/-. We were accused by An Taoiseach on one occasion of holding the country up to ransom because we looked for an extra price for wheat, and the maximum price for wheat was fixed last year at 35/- a barrel; if it was going to cost over that, well, the price of bread was going to go up for the poor. Now, those gentlemen about whose preservation the Minister for Supplies was so anxious stepped in. I am sure every Deputy in the Dáil will understand the position. The total available wheat in the country is divided into quotas; each miller gets his quota; each miller has to mill that quota, and he has to get that quantity of wheat wherever he gets it and at whatever cost. I want to make that clear before we go any further, for here is what happened: One of those indispensable individuals came along and he bought about 20,000 tons of wheat. He stepped in between the miller and the farmer and he bought from the farmer. This is the letter that he wrote on 7th January, 1941:

There is on the Order Paper, a motion in the name of Deputy Belton referring to the price of wheat. It should not be debated now. Deputies might argue that a higher price might increase the possibility of getting the quota required, but a case for such a higher price may not be made on this motion. The Deputy has begun to read a letter which may not be a public document. If it is merely a business letter sent to some firm, it may not without the permission of the writer be read in this House. One side of a case may not be put against one who has no remedy, no opportunity to reply.

In reply to the first portion of your statement, I am not advocating at the moment any increase in the price of wheat. In this case the farmer has got nothing at all to do with it, because the wheat has passed from the farmer's hands. As regards the second point, I have full authority for reading this letter.

From the writer?

From the person to whom it was written.

That is not sufficient authority. The Deputy should have the permission of the writer. The Deputy may not read any more of that letter nor may he give the name of the writer.

The Taoiseach laid down as a first rule in this country that we would all have to make sacrifices and nobody is going to be allowed to make a millionaire of himself.

He did not say that at all.

I have the case here of an individual who comes along and takes a farmer's wheat at 35/- a barrel—20,000 barrels of it. He holds it up and demands 43/3d. a barrel for it and threatens that if he does not get his price, and if there is any squeal, he is going to complain to his friends in the Government.

This is becoming serious.

I have got the authority of the firm to whom this letter was written to read it. They have no other way of putting an end to the scandalous profiteering that is going on in this country to-day.

The Deputy must understand that the Chair has ruled that he may not read the letter or give the name.

I will say this much, that as far as I can judge in this House there is one law for one Deputy and a hanged sight a different law for another Deputy. I would like to know under what Standing Order this is knocked out.

That statement by the Deputy cannot be allowed to go unchallenged by the Chair. There is no cognisance of one law for one Deputy and another law for another Deputy. The Chair rules impartially and the Deputy must withdraw any suggestion to the contrary.

I withdraw it. I have heard at least 50 different letters from individuals complaining of prices and other things read in this House and this is the first time anything of that description has been challenged by the Chair. It is the first occasion in my experience, and I have been here about 15 years, on which any letter, for which the authority of the man who receives it has been got, could not be read.

I can only follow the ruling laid down by the Ceann Comhairle. He said the Deputy was not to read that letter or give the name. Deputy Corry cannot controvert that decision.

Very well. I am not going to read the letter or give the name.

Before the Deputy passes from that matter may I, through you, put him a question? I should like to know if Deputy Corry has shown this letter to the Minister for Supplies?

Deputy Corry sees no reason why he should show this letter to anybody.

The Deputy has stated that the only way in which it was possible to secure redress in this matter was by reading the letter. He now admits that he has not approached the Minister for Supplies at all.

I know that the letter was sent to the Minister for Supplies and I also know that during the past week in Cork County wheat was bought at 41/- a barrel by the miller, the wheat that the farmer was told if it went a penny over 35/- the bread was going to go up on the poor. We are as much concerned with the poor as any other section of the community, and perhaps a lot more concerned with the poor. Here is an individual who attempts to extract by threats—for that is the meaning of it—a profit of £66,000. That is what the deal amounts to. If one individual is going to be allowed to get away with that and the farmers are going to be told that they have to take off their coats and produce wheat without any profit at all, where does the justice come in? One creature will be allowed to take £66,000 out of the pockets of the farmers and we are to remain dumb in this House for fear we might insult the high and mighty gentleman who can get his profit by these means. There are a lot of poor devils in jail, I know others who should be there.

We have the same position with regard to oats. At the present moment 40,000 tons of barley are required if we are going to mix it with the wheat. So far as barley is concerned, 40,000 tons were bought from the farmers at £1 a barrel, and I can state here on the highest information that the price demanded for that barley to-day is 35/6 a barrel—barley bought three months ago.

Are we to remain dumb in this House when such a state of affairs exists? I have no intention of remaining dumb. God gave me a tongue and my constituents told me to use it. That is the position and I demanded on behalf of the poor of the country that the Minister will requisition the wheat and barley from those people at once at a fair and not an exorbitant profit. I demand that they will not be allowed to hold up the poor to ransom, because that is what they are doing. If that wheat is going to cost 43/- a barrel it is the poor man's loaf that is going to be mulcted. It is an outrageous procedure that these exorbitant prices should be allowed or that any individual should be permitted to get rich at the expense of the unfortunate poor or the unfortunate farmers who are slaving from morning to night.

Mr. Morrissey

Will the Deputy vote for Deputy Belton's motion suggesting 50/- a barrel for the 1941 wheat crop?

The Deputy will do his duty, and he will not run away from anything the same as you did.

Mr. Morrissey

Will you vote for the 50/-?

I will deal with that motion when it comes on. I am not going to be drawn into that now. I am putting up what I consider an important point in connection with fair and square dealing. The farmers' wheat was bought at 35/-. Somebody came between them and the miller. I suggest that that type of middleman must go, that there must be an end to this battening like locusts on the farmers, and the poor of this country as well. We have the same position as regards oats. Oats was bought at 8/- a barrel; to-day it is being sold at 14/- a barrel, and the moment you go for a grain of seed it will be 25/-. We have a Prices Commission, but they seem to be dead.

Mr. Brodrick

They will rise again.

That is the position as I view it. It is time that this state of affairs was finished, and finished definitely, in this country. The position as regards our supplies for the coming year is this. I am positively certain that if a scheme were brought in last September to give the farmers seed wheat on credit, we would have to-day 150,000 acres more under wheat than we have. Seed wheat is £25 a ton. That quantity would seed eight acres or eight and a half acres at most. Where is the farmer going to get the money? He has the rate collector on one side and the Land Commission "bum" after him on the other side. In 1939 a seed scheme would have gone through and the farmers would have got their wheat on credit only that the writer of this famous letter and his class had to be protected, the gentleman who threatened that if there was any attempt made to prevent him from getting 43/3, he was going to call on his friends in the Government. Let his friends in the Government now stand up for him. Let us hear what his friends in the Government have to say as to why that gentleman could get £66,000 out of the poor people's bread in a crisis like this. The farmers of this country are prepared to do their part. They are prepared to do their duty and they never shirked it. They will grow wheat but, if they do, in God's name let us remove from between them and the consumer the locusts who are battening on their sweat.

I did not expect to get in at such an early stage in this debate. I need hardly point out that there is a natural reluctance on the part of back-benchers to enter on the early stages of a debate of this kind. That may be due to the fact that many of us have too careful a regard for the old proverb: "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." However, I welcome the opportunity of speaking at this stage in this debate. Let me say at the outset that the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Cosgrave, is to be congratulated on his foresight in taking the initiative in the matter of requesting the Government to summon the Dáil for a special meeting for the purpose of debating the motion standing in his name. Public opinion has for some months been clamouring for more activity by the Dáil and, of late, has not been sparing in its criticism of what apparently it has come to regard as its over-paid and underworked representatives. It is my intention, therefore, to utilise to the full, the opportunity which I consider this motion affords to ventilate grievances in relation to supplies, grievances that are felt generally throughout the country, and to take the Government to task for the shameful manner in which it has seen fit to ignore the elected Parliament of the Irish people.

I suppose the reason may well be a question of trust. Perhaps it is that the Taoiseach is afraid to trust Deputies, or perhaps it is that the Taoiseach is afraid that Deputies do not trust him. Be that as it may, on the outbreak of war it was apparent to all of us that the country was in for a bad time, that hardship and suffering would become more acute as supplies became more scant, and that the Government would require all the help that could be given in order to steer the ship of State through the turbulent waters once the storm of war broke over the world. In this spirit the fullest co-operation of every Party, every group and every individual in this House, was freely offered and freely given to the Government. This beau geste, one would have expected, should have earned for us the confidence of the Government. As I say, no attempt was made on the part of anybody in this House to cash in politically on executive and administrative blunders, but these gestures, instead of encouraging the Government to invite members of the Opposition parties into their more intimate councils, appear, with the passage of time, to have had the opposite effect, namely that the Government, already tainted with bureaucracy, has become infinitely more bureaucratic. At all times, but particularly in a time of crisis, the people quite naturally look towards their local Parliamentary representatives for guidance, but the official reticence of the Government, the official attitude towards matters of outstanding importance like the censorship and the lack of facilities for free speech, due to the summoning of so few meetings of Parliament, have combined to leave Deputies singularly ignorant and uninformed upon matters about which they should be able to speak with a fair degree of accuracy and authority.

The question of the censorship does not arise on this motion.

I quite agree, Sir. As to the question of supplies generally, the public appear to be at sea. Many of us think that the supplies are also at sea. I suppose it is somewhat difficult in a debate such as this to avoid repetition and reiteration but if repetition in this debate succeeds in putting the Government on the right path then we shall have done a good day's work.

In regard to the petrol supplies, that nice little petrol bombshell, nicely timed by the Minister to explode after the tax registration period had begun, has had the effect of blasting the livelihoods of thousands of workers directly employed in the motor industry not to speak of the many more thousands employed in contiguous occupations. One can hardly help recalling the sugar scandal of last season and comparing the two. I am not blaming the Minister for the shortage of petrol. The supply of that commodity depends largely, in fact entirely, on the good-will and capacity of our next-door neighbour. But, I submit that it was in the nature of sharp practice to gather a tax in the manner in which the road tax was gathered. People were admonished and encouraged to tax their cars by a statement from the Irish Broadcasting Station and I would suggest that the Minister should try to make amends to these people by refunding in whole or in part the money paid in road-tax, or, alternatively, extend the period over which the registration certificate holds good.

The Government cannot be unaware that many individuals and many business people have lorries, vans, and miscellaneous types of commercial vehicles on the road for which they are paying on the hire-purchase system. The capacity of those people to pay their periodical commitments depends on those vehicles being kept on the road. Quite clearly, if there is not sufficient petrol available to keep them on the road and the vehicles are knocked out of commission, those people will no longer be able to meet their commitments. I suggest to the Government that now is the opportune time, if of course there is no immediate prospect of an amelioration in the petrol position, to take over those vehicles against a possible future emergency and to compensate and relieve these people of their commitments.

With regard to the supplies of other commodities more essential than petrol, that is to say, tea, sugar, flour, and coal, I gathered from the Minister's statement this afternoon that the supply of sugar was very satisfactory and that we need have no fear in regard to any shortage. But, with regard to coal, I listened some time ago with no little interest and a great deal of nausea to a statement from the Irish Broadcasting Station in relation to the storage of coal. If I remember correctly the words used were: "Store coal in your back garden, store coal in your front garden, store coal under your stairs; but store coal." That were excellent advice if every citizen had an equal opportunity to purchase. But the effect of that advice has been to give the "have's" a very mean advantage over the "have not's" and, as a matter of fact, since that piece of advice was given these same "have not's" have had to pay one-and-a-half times as much for their stone of coal or their weekly bag of coal.

The same thing applies to tea. Poor people in Dublin have had of late to tramp the streets for hours on end in order to get as much as ½ lb. of tea. The war was coming for two years before it came. It is now on its second year. Surely the Government should have the question of supplies well in hand by now. This muddling must stop at once, where you have rationing without shortage of a commodity, and shortage without rationing of a commodity. If the Government think that there is a shortage of food, or that there is any likelihood of a shortage of any particular commodity or any number of commodities, let them do the right thing; let them institute a rationing system. If they are satisfied that there is a shortage, the correct thing to do is to introduce a national system of rationing so that everybody will have an opportunity of securing an equal share of what there is to go round.

We in this country remain one of the few surviving democracies, and, in the words of the Taoiseach, we are prepared to defend our neutrality at all costs. I, in common with everyone else here, sincerely hope that no invader will spread his wings over this country. But, if the worst should happen and we are attacked, I should like to know if our military supplies are such as to warrant the confidence of the people. All of us admire the brave and gallant words uttered by the Taoiseach in a recent broadcast. There was no defeatism there, so perhaps we are well prepared in the matter of military supplies, but quite recently some innominate bombing planes flew over Dublin and dropped their visiting cards in close proximity to two military barracks. I understand that there was not a single bang of an anti-aircraft gun nor did the beam of a searchlight traverse the sky. Incidents such as these, no doubt, will create a certain measure of uncertainty in the minds of certain people, and this question of military supplies, in particular, is a matter upon which the House, at any rate, even if it has to resort to a private session, should have a great deal more information than it already has.

Now, in a crisis of the magnitude of the one with which we are now confronted, in my view, the supply of new views and information is no less essential than the supply of any other commodity referred to. Therefore, I take this opportunity of deprecating the habit, which the Taoiseach seems to have developed of late, when he has an important statement to make, of using a foreign journal as his mouthpiece.

That is outside the scope of the present motion altogether.

If you will give me an opportunity, Sir, I shall relate it to essential supplies.

The Deputy will relate it to essential supplies?

I was referring to the question of supplies of various commodities and the point I wish to make, Sir, is this: that when the Taoiseach, or any Minister, has a statement to make, such as that to which I am referring, instead of doing what the Taoiseach has been doing for some time past—that is, providing the information to a foreign journalist——

I think the Deputy ought to come down to the matter of essential supplies.

Paper supplies may be scarce also.

I do not see what this has to do with the motion at all, but perhaps the Deputy can relate it to the motion.

I do not think I have gone outside this motion, Sir, and whilst I have never made any attempt in this House to refuse to accept the ruling of the Chair, I submit that quite considerable scope has been given to other speakers on this motion. I am merely making a passing reference to a matter which, I submit, has some relationship to this motion, inasmuch as I am making the point that there is very little information amongst people generally as to the condition of our supplies while, at the same time, foreign journalists are provided with sensational scoops for foreign papers with a foreign circulation, and I am submitting that, when information such as that is to be given out, the proper occasion or the proper place for doing so is the Dáil.

On a point of order, Sir, I cannot see how the Deputy can relate the point he is making to the motion before the House, except on the ground that the statements to which he refers were concerned with supplies and, as far as I know, any statements of the Taoiseach that were given to representatives of foreign newspapers have been on matters of general national policy.

Supplying propaganda or information.

I did not catch the Minister's remark.

The point of order made by the Minister is sustained, because I think the Deputy has gone outside the scope of the motion.

Very well, Sir. Then I shall deal with another question, the question of man-power. I believe that the response from men for the fighting services has been very satisfactory, but I think it is regrettable that the position of Deputies of this House who have offered their services to the Army is such that they have not been accepted. Numbers of Deputies who have offered their services to the Army are in the position that their offers either have not been accepted or else they were rejected.

I do not think the Deputy is confining himself to the motion before the House.

Are they not vital supplies?

The motion deals with supplies from the economic standpoint, as far as the Chair can judge.

The question of a supply of a sufficient number of men for the Army is surely a matter of importance and a matter that should be discussed on a motion like this. After all, we have met only about four or five times in the last few months, and a back bencher gets very few opportunities of speaking even in normal times, and therefore I ask for the Chair's indulgence.

The Deputy must understand that the Chair itself is bound by the terms of the motion, as well as every Deputy. The motion deals with the probable future situation in regard to essential supplies. It asks, secondly, that the Government should indicate what steps are to be taken for their equitable distribution. I think that the matters mentioned by the Deputy are not within the scope of the motion.

Very well, I shall leave the matter entirely aside, but I thought that, by mentioning it on this motion the question might be clarified. Now, I must say that I am not unaware that the Government, throughout this crisis, have surmounted many difficulties, difficulties the solution of which required foresight, courage and forth-right action on the part of members of the Cabinet on whom the responsibility of dealing with such problems lay. Whilst I say that I am quite aware of that, however, I think that this is an occasion which calls for fair, clear-cut, honest and constructive criticism, and that the time at our disposal is better spent in that way than by supporters of the Government patting themselves on the back for their successes on the one hand or by their opponents blaming them for their failures on the other hand.

I think I should apologise to the House if I open my remarks by referring to a portion of the speech made by Deputy Corry. I feel that apology is necessary because most Deputies in this House know that Deputy sufficiently well not to take him seriously, but I think it is necessary to refer to one portion of his speech lest outsiders, who do not know the Deputy as well as we do, might by chance take him seriously. In one portion of his speech he made a most offensive reference to another country with which our relations are perfectly friendly at the moment, and those relations, we all hope, will continue to be friendly.

If these remarks of the Deputy were taken up by mischief-makers in Great Britain and circulated as the observations of a Government Deputy made in this Parliament, immense harm might result. His remarks were to the effect that during the Great War, Great Britain fed us on black bread, that there were 250,000 Irishmen then fighting for her, and that if we were to look to Great Britain now for any necessities he knew very well the answer we would get. The people of this country are notorious for many things. Amongst others, thanks be to goodness, they are notorious for their courtesy, for their hospitality and for their politeness. It is common good manners to say thanks for services received, even if they are received from an enemy. It is essential good manners to say thanks for favours received from another country, at immense risk to that country. The arrangement made with regard to supplies of commodities for this country carried from overseas by British ships is that, as far as possible, the people of this country will receive their share of those supplies on exactly the same basis as the people in Great Britain are supplied. It is more than we would be entitled to demand. It is more than we would be entitled to expect. There are neutral countries supplying us with goods, and we appreciate that service very much, and there is no man in a representative capacity who would not say thanks.

Mr. A. Byrne

For our coal.

It is particularly generous of a belligerent country that is fighting for its own existence to supply us with goods. Take petrol. When it ran out where did we turn to see what was the cause and the remedy? To the British Petrol Board, to know if they would be able to give us further supplies. In the light of that, for any Deputy in any Party, no matter how irresponsible, to get up and insult a country which is doing its best to supply us can do nothing but harm. I merely intervene, on account of following the Deputy, to take this early opportunity to correct any impression that might be created. I feel sure that if a Minister followed the Deputy he would take steps to remove any harm that might be done.

Mr. A. Byrne

You are speaking for 90 per cent. of the country. We all want to say the same thing.

The Dáil was convened at the request of the main Opposition Party. The proceedings opened with a protest from another Opposition Party against the very, very few meetings of the Dáil. It was pointed out that in perilous, critical, changeable times like these the Dáil should meet with a reasonable amount of regularity. The House would not have met to-day but for the fact that one of the Opposition Parties asked that it should meet. In Europe you have at the present moment a great wave of anti-democratic, anti-parliamentary forces led by two mighty countries, headed by two anti-democratic dictators, and the out-crop of these great convulsions and great movements is being felt in every democratic country in the world. It is being felt particularly in new democracies in Europe such as ourselves. We have at present here some well-intentioned and some evil-intentioned anti-parliamentary forces getting going, growing bigger and stronger every day. Those of us who are believers in democracy, as giving expression to a freely elected Parliament, should be ever and always on the alert to see that no disrespect is paid to that Parliament. The more highly placed we are, the more careful we must be to see that no disrespect is paid to Parliament, whether intended or not intended.

I believe that more damage was done to Parliament in this country by those who did not intend it, by the Taoiseach and by his Ministers, through the immensity of important matters that are being dealt with day after day without any reference whatever to Parliament. I am not stating that in any spirit of controversy. I am stating it in a spirit of warning. I will point the finger over here. With the best intentions in the world we, over here, have strengthened the anti-parliamentary forces by our parliamentary inactivity, by refraining from criticising and pounding at the Government week after week. We were inactive; we were silent with the best intentions in the world. I believe harm came from that. I believe harm has come, and that harm is daily growing, from the amount of highly important matters that are being dealt with day after day by Government Departments through Emergency Regulations, through broadcasts, through many avenues, to give expression to the cause, the facts, or necessities for action, except through the Parliament. Much harm has come out of that. Let us take a few short months or, for that matter, a few short weeks. Parliament was adjourned and this country was subjected to two days and two nights of periodic bombing. Rumour was at its wildest throughout the country. Every mischief-maker that wanted any trouble between this and any other country was busy spreading rumours as to who had attacked us.

Some of us managed to get some news by ringing up the Government or pushing doors open and going into Government Departments. Surely that was an occasion when, whatever statement had got to be made, should have been made in and through Parliament. In the next country to us, enjoying a Parliament and valuing Parliament, with a people that history has taught how to value a Parliament, where they are now fighting for their very existence, and who control activities, military, naval and air, over more than half the world, representing to an extent a mighty empire, not a minute of the day passes without some corner being attacked. Do you think the head of that Parliament, with all his worries, all his responsibilities and all his irritations and with all his work, carries on and ignores the Parliament? Any statement he has of importance, and a general survey every second week, are given to the people through the medium of Parliament. Why? Not that it could not be made through 101 other avenues, but because Parliament is dear and valuable to the British public and even the mightiest over there pay respect to the value placed on Parliament by the people.

Here we have the opposite. Here we have the head of an Irish Government, one of the youngest free democracies in the world—before we have had the privilege of our own Parliament for 21 years—giving in and stating: "Of course, I will not refuse if asked for a meeting of Parliament, but Ministers are busy and Parliament interferes with their activities." If the Ministers would use Parliament to give information to it, and through it to the people, they would find their load of work much easier. Ever since the war began some 18 months ago, no Minister can complain of obstruction from this House. If they were embarrassed here in the Dáil by any form of activity, it was by over-anxiety amongst all Parties to help them out of any difficulty. If the Minister for Supplies had difficulties here to-day and had questions to answer, and found himself for an hour and a half strongly on the defensive, it was because of the lack of information with regard to anything worth while. Had we got some form of statement once or twice a month, the difficulties there are would be better understood and the dangers would be grasped by the people.

I am strongly of opinion that knowledge of the facts, however disagreeable they may be, would make for confidence and courage rather than panic. For 12 months this country has been the happiest hunting ground in the whole world for every rumour-monger and mischief-maker who wished to spread panic. Government silence and censorship, and restrictions on public speech, are the allies of such mischief-makers. This Parliament should, and could, be used to give more information to the public and to undo the harm that is being done by the spreading of rumours, which are at present doing damage to the State and to Parliament itself.

I listened with great attention and a certain amount of astonishment to the Minister for Supplies in his statement here to-day. He is one of the ablest debaters in the Government Party; he is one of the mightiest wielders in all Ireland of the whitewash brush, particularly when he applies it to himself. Even with a combination of such qualities he failed to make a case here to-day that impressed anybody. The Minister is never obstructed in making a case by any failure to exaggerate. Any points—even exaggerated ones, frequently inaccurate points—which will help to embellish his case are used to great advantage. What was his statement here? Amongst others made here to Deputies—made to people who were weary listening to the complaints of people outside—there was, No. 1, with regard to petrol, that there was no attempt by the Government at all to drive people or to attract them into taxing their cars, that there was no breach of faith, actual or implied, in the Government dealings with the public over the petrol and car tax.

I am certain that the Minister has sitting behind him in his own Party very many people who are as sore at the moment at the treatment they got as would be found in any other group. What was the position? How were the motor users treated? If there were no such thing as a Department of Supplies to warn them that a commodity was running out, what would happen? Tankers would come in, the petrol would be issued, some day the petrol would run short, and the following day there would be no petrol at any pump in Ireland for anybody. That would be the position if we had no immense and highly expensive Department of Supplies. But we have an immense and highly expensive Department of Supplies and the only commodity in the whole world which they attempted to control, down to the very glass, was petrol. Presumably there was no sufficiently reliable national register to ration other commodities to the same extent. Petrol was the only thing which was absolutely subject to control and absolutely controlled by rationing. Every motor user was known, taxed and registered. The horse power of his car was known; the address of the person was known; all about him was known.

The Minister took over control of petrol on a rationing basis, he gave out books of coupons to petrol users and the use of petrol was controlled from two or three avenues available to the Minister. I do not know whether 50 per cent. or more of the petrol consumed in this country is consumed by private owners: it might be less but, whatever the percentage is, the coupons for private owners were over-stamped and that gave a 50 per cent. added value only at times when the Minister gave it that value, and at any time that could be withdrawn by the Minister and at least one third of the petrol used by private owners could be saved. That was one line he took. Another line was that no coupon issued held for more than three months, so that at the end of every quarter everybody had to re-apply and, presumably, the new issue would be according to the supplies in the country and the estimate of future supplies. November was the last issue. There was no alteration. Everybody got the same as previously. Some got more. The over-stamping got its full value, and even in the case of the over-stamping of the 50 per cent. increase to private owners, there was no hint on the 22nd or 23rd of December that there was any reason why that gratuitous extra 50 per cent. should be limited. Apparently there was no person and no Department watching petrol supplies running out at the principal holiday period in the life of the people of this country. The people were allowed to go off on their Christmas holidays, fully encouraged by the belief that they had a coupon book carrying eight over-stamped coupons—24 gallons of petrol—but when they set out to return from their Christmas holidays they were left stranded at all points of the country for want of a bottle of petrol. It is not the function of the Department of Supplies merely to tell us when the cupboard is empty, it is its function, as far as possible, to keep food in the cupboard, and, when replenishments are not coming in, to extend the life of the food that is there by rationing. The rationing that was done with petrol was a joke. It merely gave the people confidence that the petrol situation was all right, at least as long as the over-stamp value held, and that the first sign of trouble would be the withdrawal of that. The Minister allowed a head-on collision. If it was merely the case of private owners, the matter might be surmounted, but when it concerned tens, dozens and hundreds of people, involving the loss to them of their means of livelihood absolutely, then I think the Minister and the Government should be soundly denounced and indicted.

We should have known that the tankers were going to be sunk.

It may not mean a whole lot to the Minister that just one man has gone out of work at a certain garage, but may I put the matter to him in this way? If any of us in this House lost both our Dáil allowance and our income from our business or profession outside to-night and had nothing to-morrow except home help, unemployment assistance or something from the St. Vincent de Paul funds to maintain our families, we would regard ourselves as objects of sympathy, as people worthy of the sympathy and assistance of every decent man. But merely because the people concerned are humble people and not sufficiently influential to walk in here and buttonhole us, is no reason why they should be forgotten. I am trying not to be prejudiced. I may be dense and stupid, but the Minister said nothing in his one-and-a-half-hour speech to-day that would entitle me to refer to the petrol situation in any other terms than as an unforgivable and unforgettable blunder. To jockey around in that cynical attitude of the Minister and allow every petrol pump to go dry, cars to come to a standstill, to have the commercial life of the country stopped and men thrown out of their employment without a word of warning——

We got no warning. Where does the Deputy think we should have got a warning from?

If I was controlling the petrol of this country which was there in a tank——

Unfortunately it was not.

——and saw, while I was expecting supplies, that the bottom of the tank was within a foot of the top of the liquid, does the Minister not think that I would at least withdraw the over-stamp issue to private people so as to extend the life of what was left as much as I could? Does he not think that, at least, before the bottom of the tank was stone dry, there was a responsibility on him to tell people who were 100 or 150 miles away from home that the petrol was running out?

The effect of withdrawing the over stamps would not affect more than 2 per cent. of the total.

The fact is that the Minister is suffering from a disease that affects every Minister after he has been seven or eight years in the job, and that is that he forgets about the people.

Nonsense.

He regards himself as a mighty man and the rest as unimportant folk. However, the petrol ran out, and there was no machinery in this country to stop it running out or to let the public know that it was about to run out. We were up against the end of the taxing year. The pockets of the mugs had got to be picked and picked quickly. They had to be reassured, like the three card trickster on the racecourse, in order that they would cough up the money.

Who were to be reassured?

There was an official pronouncement to the effect that there would continue to be some restriction on petrol, but that the face value of the coupon would remain the same.

Does the Deputy suggest that was an inducement to register their cars?

Associated with that was the further pronouncement that if they used their cars and did not tax them they would be dealt with and dealt with ruthlessly. I believe that in any dictator country more consideration would have been shown to the people. However, there was a two-pointed fork. One was an implied contract that the value of the coupon would remain unchanged, and the other was a threat, so that between the implied contract and the threat many people that had to, and many people that had not to, went in and taxed their cars. No sooner was the loot in the till than we got the pronouncement that the value of the coupon was quartered. It was said here to-day by way of interruption—I propose to repeat it in this debate—that if any commercial firm got in money by such tactics the Minister for Justice and the law department would have them behind prison bars.

Does the Deputy know the meaning of the word "inducement"?

I know the meaning of the words I used but I rarely know the meaning of the words used by the Minister because their meaning, like a Scotch partridge, changes from day to day. I do suggest to the Minister that in my opinion, and in the opinion of 90 per cent. of the people whom I have been in contact with since Christmas Eve, my words on this would be described as being too modest. However, we certainly can congratulate the Minister on his success in controlling the only commodity over which he had complete control. What have we to congratulate the Department on?

On the fact that it is the only commodity which has to be controlled up to the present.

We are coming to that. The only commodity that has to be controlled?

Up to the present.

That has to be controlled by whom?

By anybody.

You have placed the odium of controlling other things on the butchers, the grocers and the unfortunate people who have to do their best to supply customers and fall foul of none. How did you control butter? Not by the Minister taking the unpopularity but by saying to the grocers: "Give everyone only two-thirds of his supply." The unfortunate grocer was there to control it on the Minister's order. Did the Minister ever think of the effect of that? The grocer was to supply two-thirds, and only two-thirds, to his customers. Is the Minister so far removed from years gone by when he was the darling of the masses that he has forgotten the fact that the masses are not regular customers with an account? They buy their butter and other commodities on a cash basis from week to week and the first result of that order was that the wives of many of those men could not get butter any place. The Minister expressed astonishment here to-day at the suggestion made by Deputy Cosgrave that there was any difficulty in procuring tea, that there was any shortage of tea.

I said nothing of the sort.

That is what I understood.

I said that it was because we got complaints that the matter was investigated.

The Minister, first of all, started in his usual brazen manner by appearing to dispute the assertion and then, when pressed a little on that front, said that one wholesaler did hold up tea. If the Minister were back in his old place as a Deputy, he would be aware of the fact that a person would spend the whole of four days walking through the City of Dublin before he would buy a lb of tea, if he were not a regular and a big customer in a place. It lasted only a week or ten days, I admit, but during that week or ten days, I have known people to visit, with cash to pay for the tea, 40 to 60 or 80 houses in the grocery or tea business, and, when they did get it, they got it at 6d. to 1/- extra. I did not hear any explanation from the Minister or anybody else as to why there was, first, a disappearance of tea off certain counters and then a reappearance of tea, but, when it bobbed up again, as to why it was 1/- dearer than the tea which disappeared. And prices are supposed to be controlled.

The Deputy, of course, took every precaution to see that that fact was reported.

This Parliament does not meet so often that I got very many opportunities of reporting it.

A halfpenny stamp and post a letter. I should correct that. A stamp is not necessary at all.

The Minister probably has in his Department dozens of reports with regard to it. Certainly from the Minister's statement here to-day, I would not be prepared to suggest that he knows very much about what is happening inside his Department. There is a lot happening there that he does not know. Bravado, challenging and all that kind of thing may carry him around the corner of a debate. He denied and disputed things to-day occurring within his Department which we all know to have occurred.

However, I have referred to petrol, to butter, to tea and we come now up against the wheat situation. The Minister's replies to questions put here to-day, unless something further takes place, are not going to inspire Deputies to get out on a national campaign and are not going to inspire landholders to grow wheat rather than anything else. The Minister does not seem to have studied his brief in the manner in which he used to study briefs. I remember, when the Minister was head of another Department, he would come into this House with the most intricate and bulky piece of legislation. He would never even have to refer to a note and he would be very rarely wrong in a reply with regard to the material in the Bill.

The amount of information we got from the Minister to-day with regard to flour and wheat production, expectation, consumption and supply was, to say the least of it, not convincing. There were reasonable questions put in a reasonable way, based on official figures, and the result of the case made and the replies given is that, instead of being assisted, I personally was bewildered, and there is no good in asking anybody who is confused, bewildered and, to say the least of it, not convinced to play a part in a national campaign. It would be mere hypocrisy for me, in the light of my present information, to participate in any such campaign.

What information does the Deputy want?

I may be just the one stupid Deputy and the Minister may be the one wise man, but I am honest enough to say that I am bewildered with regard to the wheat and flour situation. The Minister told us that barley would be tried. Anything that will extend the life of what wheat or flour is there is defensible and legitimate. Personally, I do not think that barley will turn out to be a suitable thing to mix with wheat for bread for human consumption. Anything I have ever learned has been against that, and in favour of the oaten mixture, even though it may not be so palatable.

On that, we will be guided by the opinions of those who are the most expert in the country.

I have no doubt you will. I am only expressing my own views and my knowledge of such matters may be entirely out of date. The Minister gave us to understand that there would be no interference with distilleries in order to secure that barley for adding. I have correspondence which I intend to take the opportunity of placing before the Minister's colleagues, showing that an officer of the Minister's Department sent a representative to the distillers and gave them to understand that he required their barley—whatever barley they had in stock—even though it meant closing down the distilleries.

That is not so.

I will place the correspondence in the possession of the Minister's colleagues before the night is out.

There is no need to place it in anybody's possession but my own. There is no communication from my Department to that effect.

Let us not misunderstand one another——

I am aware, because I have received communications from the Offaly Committee of Agriculture that that statement has been made, and I am quite sure that that is the information the Deputy has received, but it is not true.

I have received a statement from one of the distillers' representatives. I understand there are four distilleries and that they were all called together by an officer of the Minister on last Friday or Thursday. They were asked with regard to their barley holdings and this man left the Minister's building under the impression that there was very little prospect of his being left the barley. That is so far as I am prepared to make a statement. I have received that in writing. My intention is to pass the letter and the communications I received to the Minister for Industry and Commerce because the distinction I see is that the Minister for Supplies is responsible for getting supplies, no matter how, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce is responsible for keeping industry going, no matter how. It is no insult to the Minister for Supplies that I had intended to pass the letter on elsewhere.

I sent a letter to-day in reply to these letters to a colleague of the Deputy.

In reply to a reference to-day by Deputy Dillon, or somebody else, to three transport systems operating between the Nelson Pillar and Dalkey, the Minister gave us to understand that there would be no economy, so far as petrol is concerned, if the bus route were discontinued, because, as he said, the buses do not use petrol but some type of oil. The Minister's Department has circularised bus companies that they cannot use their transport to carry people to what I may call frivolous or pleasure functions on account of the petrol shortage. If it relieves the acute petrol situation to stop buses carrying people to dances, race meetings and similar functions, it would equally relieve it to close down any route which runs alongside a train or a tram. The Minister may not be aware that his Department is operating in that direction. If the Minister was aware that his Department was preventing buses from travelling on non-essential journeys in order to conserve petrol, then he was not perfectly candid with Deputy Dillon to-day when he said that by stopping the buses from running alongside rails, there would be no economy, because the buses do not use petrol.

I said that it would not save petrol. The Deputy is getting quite artful in misrepresentation. The question of rationalising transport in order to prevent overlapping and to avoid bus services running where there are rail services is being fully considered in consultation with those responsible for these services at the present time. But what I said was that stopping the buses would not save petrol. Neither would it.

It may be the Minister's idea that the Deputy is getting cleverer in the art of misrepresentation, but the Deputy thinks that he is merely getting wily in following Ministerial representation. I think that that is apparent to everybody here.

Are all the buses run on crude oil?

No, but the Dublin Tramway buses are run on fuel oil.

All of them?

No matter how difficult or disagreeable it may be for the Minister or for Deputies, I think that a lot of the confusion, doubt, suspicion, anxiety and uneasiness which is hanging over the country at the moment would be dispelled and further checked if this body would meet more frequently and if Ministers would utilise meetings to make as full statements as possible on the work of their Departments and the difficulties and dangers of the future.

The purpose of the resolution which the Dáil was summoned to consider to-day appeared to me to be very excellent and I think that Deputy Cosgrave is entitled to be complimented on having brought about the meeting. Listening to the debate, it seemed to me that there was a good deal of unreality about it. The purpose of the speakers has mainly been, I suggest, to misrepresent the statement made by the Minister for Supplies and to enlarge on the fact that there is a shortage of petrol. The Minister has been blamed as being a careless and reckless man, generally unsuited for his position. If we accept this description of the Minister as true, will any of the Deputies opposite say they will find a man, however perfect he may be and whatever his foresight and powers of management may be, who will be able to ensure that no tanker carrying petrol to us will be torpedoed? If such a man can be found to take charge of our supplies, will he be in a position to prevent the torpedoing and sinking of cargoes of wheat for this country?

We have no ships.

Has the Deputy any idea of the number of ships we have lost?

When a Parliamentary question was put down on that matter, the Minister was not prepared to tell.

I am sure that Deputy Cosgrave's idea in putting down this motion was quite good. He wanted a discussion as to ways and means but those who have taken part in the discussion from his benches have not contributed to it anything that would be useful and that is the only purpose which future emergency meetings of the Dáil could serve. What we really have to face is the position as outlined by the Minister for Supplies. There is a shortage of petrol—a vital commodity, no doubt, but not by any means the most vital commodity so far as the people of the country are concerned. We have to consider a contingent shortage of a more essential commodity—flour. Deputies who follow their leader into this House and who waste time in abusing and misrepresenting men who are doing their best and who have done wonderful things should avail of the opportunity they have to-day to point to ways and means by which that possible shortage of flour may be prevented. They would be doing really useful work for the people they feel so strongly about, as they tell us, if they did that. There is only one sure way of preventing a shortage of flour.

There is no use in going, as Deputy Dillon has suggested, in a benign and kindly way and saying to the people over in England: "Give us a certain quantity of your wheat and we will provide you with a certain number of our pigs." That is not a serious proposition. That sort of good nature does not exist in business at any period but least of all at a period such as this. Nobody believes that that is a serious suggestion. Nobody would treat it with serious consideration for one moment. There is only one way by which the situation can be saved, and that is, by planning for producing ourselves our needs for this year. The needs have been very clearly stated in the Minister's statement. Five hundred thousand additional acres of wheat are required. How is that to be accomplished?

Let us get some figure upon which we can agree.

Let us say 300,000.

Mr. Morrissey

Additional?

On the basis of what extraction do you want the figures? Is it on the basis of the 75 per cent. extraction?

What we want to know is what the Government is asking for.

Mr. Morrissey

Is it 500,000 or 300,000? Will the Minister say a minimum of so much? There is no use in bandying different figures about.

I think the Minister has already indicated that. At any rate I am not in a position to speak accurately or officially at the moment. The Minister has made his pronouncement and I think it has to do with what I am suggesting now.

Mr. Morrissey

I did not want to interrupt the Deputy. I wanted to get the figure clear.

The Minister has indicated that between 300,000 and 500,000 additional acres are needed in order that the food supplies of this country may be safe. How are we to get it? I make a few suggestions in that direction. First of all, from the experience that the Department of Agriculture must now have of the growing of wheat during the last eight or ten years in this country, they must be able to state fairly closely what areas are most suited for the growing of wheat and what areas are most suited for the growing of other crops. This position of continuing to repeat that we want a greater area under wheat may become dangerous.

We may induce many people to put part of their limited tillage space under wheat where the yield would not be as fruitful as it would be if the same area were put under other crops which are just as useful. There should be a more defined plan submitted. The agricultural overseers in the counties should be instructed to inform the farmers as to whether they should take part and to what extent they should take part in producing this additional 300,000 or 500,000 acres of wheat. The matter should not be treated in a haphazard way.

In regard to the growing of foodstuffs generally, I submit to the Government that they should first extend the allotments scheme to the workers in every town and no longer have it confined so as to be the preserve of those who can say they live in an urban area. I could never see the logic behind this division. Because 1,000 workers live in a town there is an allotment scheme for them. In the next town where there are 999 workers there is no allotment scheme for them. Houses were built in the smallest towns in the country. Where houses are built it should be a matter of fact that a certain amount of land should be made available so that the people could grow part of their foodstuffs. There is ample land around every town in this country and that allotment scheme should be made available to every worker in every town in the country. If that were done many thousands of additional acres would be under cultivation by the labourers in the small towns.

We come then to another scheme by which a further substantial increase in tillage can be secured. The Government have this year introduced a scheme which is generally accepted by the farmers as a splendid venture towards the improvement of their conditions, that is, the farm improvement scheme. I was more than astonished to find in one area where an official operates, which covers, I think, something like eleven electoral districts, the population of the farmers being somewhere about 1,500, that in this year, when there is so much demand for increased tillage, a sum of only £1,100 is available for improving the condition of those 1,500 farmers. This is in a congested area and every piece of land that is reclaimed would be tilled. I was speaking to the inspector in question last night and he told me that 75 per cent. of the applications he had received under the farm improvement scheme were for reclamation work. In other words, 75 per cent. of the farmers who want to improve their land want to improve it in reclaiming land and putting that waste land under cultivation. Splendid as the idea is, it needs to be made practical, and to make it practical it requires more money for its development. Such a scheme would provide people in congested areas with increased food supplies and give them an opportunity of extending their farms through the inclusion of land that has heretofore been waste land.

I think it is high time that full consideration should be given not only to our present needs in the present emergency, but also to the post-war period. A problem will arise then for our farmers and our people that will be far greater than we have met up to the present or that we will meet during the course of the war. We must plan for that period when, unquestionably, great revolutionary changes in our markets and the possibility of marketing our food supplies will occur. Some years ago a drainage board was set up in this country. The findings of that board have not been reported. Until drainage is carried out there can be no all-round improvement in the farms. These are matters that require Government attention. It should be driven home to those in a position to decide that it is their duty to attend to these things. I am suggesting that no question of shortage of funds should at this juncture prevent the Government from laying the foundation that will enable our farmers to prevent hunger being the lot of any of our people here during the period of emergency. No shortage of funds now should prevent our people from being in a position to meet open, firm competition when the war is over. It is an appalling indictment of civilisation that money can be found in abundance to produce things for the destruction of life and for making life ugly, but when it comes to providing money for making life comfortable it cannot be done.

The methods I have suggested— firstly, a drainage scheme, which is fundamental; secondly, the provision of sufficient money for the purpose of reclamation work; thirdly, an allotment scheme for the workers in every town—would give us thousands of additional acres of food-producing areas.

The question of credits was raised by speakers on the Opposition Benches to-day. I am afraid it has been found very difficult to find a suitable credit system for farmers. The Agricultural Credit Corporation was established many years ago. While it has been very useful—probably many people have found it useful—I assert that it has not been able to meet the needs of those who most need money. I suggest, now that we have established parish councils, that we should have a parish farm, and the purpose of that farm should be the production of cows of the best milk yield, consistent with the climatic conditions of the area; similarly in regard to pigs, poultry, seeds and other things. The form of credit which most suits the farmer is the advantage of having an additional pig, or sow or cow on his place. This farm would be in a position to give such credits, taking in return the kind of thing that the farmer is often able to supply when he is not able to provide money as such. They could take in return some of his spare stock, perhaps young pigs when he has them to sell, perhaps some extra hay that he may have on his farm, or perhaps—and this is often the case amongst the small farmers anyway—some spare labour which they can use in the development and working of this farm. In that way, credits could be practically supplied. Although this farm would be primarily under the control of the parish committee, it would be managed by an efficient and experienced manager, trained both in practical and scientific farming.

To him, further, I would give the care of every derelict farm in his area, the farm which has gone out of production through non-payment of rates or annuities or otherwise. I would hand over all those derelict farms to the management of that man, who could in turn probably employ the owner, and pay off some of the liability. If such a scheme were adopted, I see no reason why there should be a man drawing the dole in a country area. There is work there for him, and useful work in the most useful of occupations on which a man can be engaged, tilling the land and producing useful food from that land.

Those are some suggestions which I believe would help us through the present emergency. I do not consider for a moment that any contribution which a Deputy can make in this House would be worth considering unless it has a bearing on the future, and what we are concerned with in the future is the providing of essential commodities. I am in sympathy with those users of petrol who have lost their occupations or have been put to inconvenience through the shortage of petrol, but in the future that I see it is not the motor car that will be the important thing; it is not the fine beautiful road over which runs smoothly the fast-moving motor car, drawing the attention and the envious looks of the boys and girls from the fields and the roadside, who see at the end of the long road the bright lights of the city, and hasten to get there. My opinion is that far more money and time should be spent on making comfortable the homes in the countryside, making those homes bright, providing them with vegetable gardens as well as the field tillage, providing them with flower gardens, and on making those homes attractive for the youth of the country rather than leaving them to look wistfully for the lights of the city in the distance. I want to see some provision made for encouraging our people to marry early in life and settle on the land. I want to see provision made for their young families——

The Deputy has strayed from the motion before the House, in which there are two essential points—to consider the future situation regarding essential supplies and their equitable distribution in case of necessity. The Deputy has wandered into proposals for improving the amenities of rural life.

I will not press the matter. I said that I wanted to refer not only to the present emergency but to the post-war period. However, if you object to having such a discussion I will not press the matter.

Like the Deputy, the Chair must regard the terms of the motion before the House.

The Deputy's contribution has been welcome.

I find myself in complete agreement with the previous speaker on most of his remarks. I am not referring to the irrelevant portion of them. I think it is essential that, whatever discussions take place in this House, there ought to be some clarity as to how this increased tillage is going to be brought about. It is all very well to say that we must get increased tillage in order to provide the necessary foodstuffs in view of the present situation, but we must be aware that even last year this shadow had cast itself sufficiently ahead to give notice to the Government that there was a serious period approaching, and a compulsory tillage order was passed, but even before the decision in the courts it was noticeable that it was not being enforced to any considerable extent. I had some experience myself in trying to do something to promote tillage in my own county.

I had 72 men of the type spoken of by Deputy Maguire, agricultural labourers who were prepared to till one, two, three or four acres, and sow wheat there. They went through all the necessary formalities. The compulsory tillage inspector was brought on the land. Those lands were lying fallow, and the owners were living in other counties, but nobody got a foot of the land to till and nobody was prosecuted. Those men offered themselves last September or October to till the land for this year, and I was told by the inspector that if he went on to the lands now he could be chased off by the farmer, as he had no status pending the fixing up of this compulsory order. I am anxious to know if there is going to be any machinery to ensure that that miscarriage of justice will not take place again this year on those rich lands in County Limerick, where those men are willing to go in and sow the necessary crops. From the other side of the county, on the eastern border, I have had sent up to me here a list of the names of 75 men who are willing to go in and till the portions of a farm of 200 acres at present held by the Land Commission. It is proposed to divide that farm, but that cannot possibly happen this year, and probably not next year. There are 75 men in the village of Cappamore who are anxious to get plots to till on this farm of 200 acres. It has not been tilled for many years.

I am anxious to know whether there is to be any machinery or whether the Minister has anything in mind which would ensure that those lands could be made available to the people who are willing to till them. I am simply giving a few instances to bear out the case which Deputy Maguire has made. There are plenty of others of the same type in my constituency, but I just mention those as cases in point.

I cannot understand how it is that, in the municipal areas, we have power to give seeds, implements, manures and plots to the unemployed and to the employed, while through the country such powers do not exist. The Land Commission holds derelict lands, not transferred and not capable of being transferred or divided this year. Surely the Land Commission should be called upon to make those lands available to the people in the district who are prepared to till them. Secondly, the local authorities in the rural districts ought to get the same powers as are vested in the municipal authorities to provide plots for rural labourers. In addition, they would want to have an extension of those powers. The process of acquiring land is very slow —the process of proceeding by negotiation—and I should be glad if the Government would issue an emergency powers order enabling the authorities to acquire the necessary lands and get the people to work on those plots with the minimum of delay.

I think these are practical suggestions. We must realise that we are in a crisis and we should not leave ourselves in the position of lamenting later on because we did not take practical steps to grapple with the conditions that now exist. Right through the country the people are asking: " Is it going to be all talk above in the Dáil?" and they are wondering if they will find, when the season has passed, the lands lying just the same as before the talking commenced. Having had the experience of last year's compulsory tillage order and its failure, I hope the necessary tightening up has taken place and that the Government will not hesitate to use their emergency powers in order to give people a chance to do their bit to provide food for themselves and the rest of the community in this crisis.

Reference has been made to the scarcity of artificial manures, and I would like to refer to that matter briefly. It seems to me to be rather anomalous that when artificial manures are scarce there should be—as there are to my knowledge—two cargoes of rock phosphates lying in the Shannon. There are two ships there for the past seven or eight months. They belong to what was a neutral power before it was overrun. I am not very conversant with international law and I am not quite sure what would be the most feasible course to adopt in relation to those ships. The Government ought to be able to devise some machinery by which the cargoes could be brought to our factories, crushed there and made available to the farmers. Perhaps we might be able to purchase those ships and not have them lying derelict, as they have been for months. They could be used in our own interests to bring us cargoes of different kinds from other countries. There may be other ships in a similar position in other parts of the country. I would like to know if there are some means by which those ships and their cargoes could be acquired by this country and put to immediate use.

The question of petrol has been sufficiently stressed. I learned with pleasure from the Minister's speech to-day that he was going to give additional concessions to the taximen in Dublin. All our sympathies are with the taximen, not alone in Dublin but in other parts of the country, and I would like the Minister not to make any exception but to let the concession apply to taximen and hackney drivers through the country generally. So far as my experience goes, I am aware that there is a considerable number of men in Limerick who have been seriously affected by the petrol shortage. In one case a man has three cars and he employs two men, driving the third car himself. There are other men with two cars and all of them have been left on the corners because of the petrol shortage. These men have been contributing a considerable amount of revenue to the State. They have no other means of livelihood and I hope the concession will be extended to men in other parts of the country as well as in the City of Dublin.

I think it would be well if the Government did something to allay the alarm and unrest that exist amongst people, some of whom are thinking in those terms, that if petrol can be restricted so drastically in such a short space of time, essential things such as foodstuffs might meet with a similar fate. They visualise a shortage of flour and other household essentials. I think the Government ought to assure the people and give them an idea of what the position is. If the time for actual rationing has arrived, we ought to be prepared to face up to it. The people would be in a better position to meet emergencies if the Government took them into their confidence and let them know what the exact situation is. If there is a likelihood of a shortage of certain essentials, it would not be equitable to allow the system of rationing to be carried out by grocers and those other shopkeepers who are giving commodities to anybody able to pay for them, with the result that the poor may not be in a position to purchase the necessaries of life.

The position at the moment is that if eventually things have to be tightened, some people will have a greater hoard than others and there will not be sufficient for those with limited means. In accordance with the Department's suggestion some time ago, people who could afford to do it laid in stocks of food. I think that was a laudable idea, but some steps should be taken to see that certain people will not amass piles of foodstuffs and that, in the shops or through some other medium, a check will be kept on the stocks in the country. It is to be hoped that there will be adequate supervision, that those in authority will have a complete census of the available food supplies and that in a crisis they will be able to bring about an equitable distribution amongst all classes of the community, whether they have cash or not.

The Minister for Supplies stated that prior to the outbreak of war the Government had made every effort to increase the imports of all essential commodities. That statement is not a true statement. The only commodity that I know of—and I am prepared to give the Government full credit for it as far as they went—that they made any effort to store in this country before the outbreak of war was wheat. As a matter of fact, in a debate here in September, 1939, three weeks after the outbreak of war, when the Minister was being criticised for not having taken effective steps to see that our imports of essentials had been increased, the answer he made was that if he had known that the war was going to break out on 3rd September, 1939, he would have taken the steps that we suggested he should take.

One of the essentials, the lack of which is one of the biggest factors in the whole matter we are now discussing—one of the essentials which the Government not only made no attempt to get into the country, but which they actually made an order to keep out of the country and kept the order in force even after the outbreak of war—was artificial manures. We find ourselves to-day asking the people to give us something in the nature of 1,000,000 additional acres and we are not able to give them anything like 50 per cent. of the artificial manures that will be required.

I want to make my position clear. My only complaint in regard to the Minister and the Government in connection with this wheat campaign is that they started the campaign two months or ten weeks after it should have been started. The Minister for Supplies addressed a letter to Deputies within the last week or ten days. I would like the Minister for Supplies or the Minister for Agriculture to tell the House and the country why that letter was not addressed to Deputies much earlier and why appeals were not addressed to the people of the country last October. Does not the Minister realise that, so far as preparing the ground for winter wheat is concerned, it was at the eleventh hour he made his appeal? Is it not a fact that a great deal of the land that will have to be broken up will be largely virgin soil?

Practical farmers in the House and elsewhere know far better than I that it would have made a great deal of difference to the fertility of the soil if it had been broken up a month or two months ago, and had the benefit of the frost and the snow. It was all the more necessary that that land should have been broken up weeks ago in view of the fact that we have not anything like adequate supplies of artificial manures. That is my only complaint in so far as the Minister's appeal for more wheat is concerned—that it was made a couple of months too late. I might put it another way, that the response would have been much better and the returns from the increased acreage would, in my opinion, have been far greater than the returns from any increased acreage of land broken up as a result of the appeal that the Minister has just made.

The Minister and other speakers in the House have made reference to 600,000 acres of wheat. The Minister seems to assume that because we got approximately 300,000 tons of wheat last year from roughly 300,000 acres cultivated, next year we are going to get 600,000 tons of wheat from 600,000 acres. You may; I hope you will and more, but you have got to take into account that there is always a risk with our climate and that although you may have an additional 300,000 acres under wheat, you may not get an additional 100,000 tons of wheat, particularly when the precaution has not been taken, which Deputy Maguire very properly suggested should be taken, of not inducing people to sow wheat on land that is obviously unsuitable for wheat production. I am sure most Deputies are aware, and the Minister has probably been informed of it, that the return per acre of wheat in this country—I am talking now of the yield per Irish acre—can vary from four barrels to 20 barrels. I have got wheat from farmers which showed a return of over 20 barrels per Irish acre. I have also got wheat from other farmers in the same parish which returned only four and a half or only five barrels to the Irish acre. I think the returns made out by the Department of Agriculture are based on statute acres, but even so, the fact that the average return is only eight barrels to the acre shows that we are not getting the return that we should get if wheat production were confined land suitable for it.

There is a further point. Side by side with the campaign for more wheat, I should like to see an equally insistent campaign for more potatoes, particularly early potatoes. There is an old saying in this country that if you have potatoes you can feed man and beast. There is the further consideration that you can grow potatoes practically anywhere. You can certainly grow them where you cannot grow wheat or beet. There should be, as I say, side by side with the wheat campaign, a campaign for the production of more potatoes and, if necessary, though I do not think it is, there should be a guarantee, not so much of a price for the potatoes as of a market for them.

One of the things that astounded me in this debate was this development about barley. I must say that the Government stand indicted if the position is to-day that they have to go to distillers, maltsters or anybody else for barley. We had the position, not three months ago, that when the maltsters and the distillers of this country were supplied with barley, tens of thousands of barrels of first class barley were being hawked by farmers to every dealer and every purchaser in the country and that barley, most of it equal to and some of it superior to the barley which got the top malting price, being sold at 17/- to £1 per barrel. Deputations of farmers and representatives of different associations waited on the Minister for Agriculture and he could not give them any lead as to what should be done with the barley, and the unfortunate farmers were forced to sell it. The position was so close-up to the Minister's nose—I am now talking of the Minister for Agriculture—that, within three weeks, millers all over the country were writing to barley buyers asking them to get all the barley they could at any price from 23/- to 26/- or 27/- per barrel. Can anybody believe that a Department of Agriculture which was supposed to know its business, supposed to know what the position was regarding our feeding-stuffs, could not see in the first or second week of October how the farmers could profitably dispose of their barley?

They did see it.

Mr. Morrissey

They told the farmers to sell the barley to the millers at £1 a barrel.

The Minister for Agriculture told them not to sell, that the demand for it would come later. Every Deputy here heard him say so.

Mr. Morrissey

What is the use of talking like that? The average farmer who grows barley has to sell his barley as a cash crop. His barley is his main cash crop for the whole year and the shopkeeper, the seed merchant and everybody else are waiting to get that cash. Apart from that, the average farmer who grows barley has no place to store it. That is the position. In the light of the whole situation, the Minister went and arranged with the Millers' Association that they would pay the farmer £1 per barrel delivered at the mill, which meant that in nearly every case the farmer got a nett price of 19/- per barrel, some of them less. The Minister was apparently so unaware of the actual position regarding cereals that within three weeks from the time the barley was sold at 17/-, 18/-, 19/- and £1 per barrel, the millers were clamouring to get more barley, and they could not get it, at 25/- per barrel. It is even higher to-day. There is no excuse for that. Neither is there any excuse for the fact that the Minister for Supplies should only now be starting a campaign which, to be fully effective and to get the fullest return, should have been started in October last.

The Deputy appreciates that the situation is now different from what it was in October last.

Mr. Morrissey

I say the situation is no different.

It is different.

Mr. Morrissey

Would the Minister point out in what way?

There is the absence of Greek ships.

Mr. Morrissey

Is it possible that the Minister was so lacking in foresight, so recently as two months ago, that he was prepared to bank on Greek ships supplying us with sufficient wheat?

They supplied us with wheat for the whole year.

Mr. Morrissey

Even before any war broke out, the Minister thought well to provide for an emergency. Did the Minister not provide reserves of wheat before the war and pay the millers an extra 1/- per sack for storing it? If it were necessary before the war started to lay in supplies of wheat, how much more necessary was it two months ago to start this campaign after the war had been 12 months in progress?

Surely the Deputy is not suggesting that there was no drive to get more wheat grown two months ago?

Mr. Morrissey

I am suggesting that two months ago neither the Minister nor any man in the country had the right in the then existing circumstances to gamble on our getting wheat from abroad.

Did not the Government increase the price for wheat and increase the area to be tilled under the Compulsory Tillage Order two months ago?

Mr. Morrissey

I know this, and it is one thing I am holding against the Minister in connection with the wheat scheme, that the Minister would have a 50 per cent. better chance of getting a 100 per cent. response to his appeal, if it had been made two months ago. He would have given the farmers of the country a much better chance of responding to that appeal and there would be a much better prospect then that the land would give a full return.

Surely the appeal was made three months ago, six months ago?

Mr. Morrissey

What is the use of quibbling like that?

What I am saying is that the importance of getting an increased acreage of wheat was pointed out months ago, that the area to be tilled under the Compulsory Tillage Order was increased months ago, and that it is only in the past few weeks that the critical situation has arisen, namely, that we have to face the possibility of getting no wheat from outside.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister has confirmed me in an opinion that I was afraid almost to hold, and that is that we are carrying on on a day-to-day basis, that there is no foresight, that we are depending on every shift in the war for every change in the policy of the Government. The Minister is not going to take any steps or make any effort until he is actually forced to do it by some turn in the war adverse to us. I referred at the outset of my speech to a statement which the Minister made in the course of his speech in which he said that prior to the outbreak of the war the Government had taken all possible steps to ensure an increase of imports of every essential commodity. I challenged that statement when the Minister was not here and I challenge it again.

In respect to what commodity?

Mr. Morrissey

Every commodity with the exception of wheat. Let me take artificial manures which are the biggest obstacle to the Minister's whole campaign.

We had a substantial increase in stocks.

Mr. Morrissey

At the outbreak of the war, far from making efforts to get in an essential commodity such as artificial manure, we had in force an order preventing them from coming into the country.

Nonsense. We had in this country heavily increased stocks of the raw materials for manufacturing artificial manures. There have been two seasons since. Does the Deputy expect us to have a three-year supply in the country?

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister ought to face up to this as a very serious matter.

Were there two seasons since September, 1939?

We have had a season and a half.

Mr. Morrissey

I want to put this to the Minister. So far as we are concerned in recognising the seriousness of the situation, in response to the appeal made we are going to go all out to try to get 100 per cent. response from the farmers. I want to say this to the Minister, that the first platform on which I get, or on which any Deputy gets to ask for an increased acreage of wheat, beet, oats, and potatoes, the first question that is going to come from a farmer in the crowd will be: "Will you give me the manures to do it?" I will have to answer that we cannot give them.

We cannot get them.

Mr. Morrissey

I want to point out to the Minister——

So far as we are concerned, if we can get the manures we will get them. In Great Britain they have decided that they will not even try to get them.

They would not let them in in 1939.

It is indicative of the difficulty.

Mr. Morrissey

I want to make a further point. I suppose there is no use talking of the past except that we hope the Minister will keep it in mind for the future. I want to say this seriously to the Minister, and I am sure the farmers in his own Party who know more about it than I do would confirm it, that because of the very shortage of manures it was all the more important that this drive should have been made in October and that the land should have been broken up. There are many other matters that I should like to debate on this motion, but I am not going to go into them now. Most of them have been dealt with already and there are other speakers to follow. I want to emphasise these few points which I look upon as important. I want to suggest to the Government that they ought not to make the same mistake with regard to the drive for the growing of more potatoes, and particularly for the growing of early potatoes, which was made in respect of wheat. The Minister repeated three or four times to-day in the course of his speech that he was trying to budget for the gap between the end of June and August. The Minister, let me suggest to him, cannot again take that risk. It is clear that none of this year's wheat crop will be available to be turned into flour sooner than the middle and perhaps the end of September. The Minister has to budget, not for a gap of two months, but three months. Farmers will tell him that, and that depends very largely on the weather. But even with a fairly favourable year, it will be probably nearer the end of September than the end of August before homegrown wheat will be available to be turned into flour.

I find myself very much in agreement with what Deputy O'Higgins said about Parliamentary institutions. At the same time, parliamentary institutions, as we have them here and in neighbouring countries, are now open to very serious attacks. If we are honest in trying to keep parliamentary institutions going, and if we wish to use the machinery of parliamentary institutions, we should avoid as far as possible misusing the machinery of parliamentary institutions, because most people will agree with me that it was the misuse in other countries of parliamentary functions that destroyed the parliaments of many countries. I know that parliaments, like any other machinery that may be devised, decay for want of use. I agree with the Deputy to that extent, that there should be more use made of parliamentary machinery and that we should meet more frequently than we have met.

I feel that, generally speaking, each and every one of us has something of importance to contribute. Most of us are only able to contribute one item of importance, but even if we are able to contribute in the course of a speech only one item of importance that in itself is a contribution. Certainly it is a consolation to the people of the country to know that such an institution as this is here in which can be expressed the many fears that come on them at a time like this. It is also extremely useful—I think it is Deputy Cosgrave spoke about that— to put a stop to the many wild rumours that are found to be in circulation and which at times do infinite harm. Many Deputies on the opposite benches have suffered as a result of these rumours. But these rumours have certainly had one good result, and that is that we met here to-day to dispel them. I take it that a lot of these rumours, which Deputies opposite and some of us on these benches have been suffering under and been misled by, have now to a very large extent anyway been dispelled. However, that is a side of life which, during a period like this, is inevitable. There are more important things which we should like to discuss and to hear criticised and which we should like to have completely understood. As far as petrol is concerned, I do not think anybody in this country, since the war started, ever believed for one moment that we were going to go on having petrol supplies uninterrupted. I saw people —and spoke to them—registering cars. Some of them registered for the whole year and some for three months—it was a debatable point—but whether they registered for three months or 12 months, every person to whom I spoke had it in mind that it was possible that at any moment petrol supplies would be interrupted. Therefore, there is not much in that. It must be remembered that we have no control over the countries from which the petrol comes nor have we any control over the country from which it is distributed, and although the shortage of petrol causes a great deal of dislocation and, unfortunately, a great deal of unemployment, every person who is suffering from the result of the shortage of petrol now knew full well that that result was going to come about.

There are other more important things, however, which I think the country would like to hear discussed, and the most important is the question of our food supply: the question of extra wheat, extra oats, the importance of the potato crop and, as Deputy Morrissey said, the importance of new potatoes and something to connect us between the time when wheat may run out and the time when it comes in. If we had not these commodities, even though we had the petrol, I do not think we could stand very long. If we had not any petrol at all, but had enough to eat, I believe the country could still stand. After all, our country is not so large that transport and all that kind of thing would have to disappear if we had no petrol. There are a good many extraordinary situations with regard to our whole transport system, and I think everybody is well aware of that. We have petrol-driven lorries running alongside railways, railways running alongside canals and running alongside other transport systems. These, however, are matters that will demand attention at another date. What we are concerned with at the moment is the crops that are sown and those we are about to sow—what is to happen to them and how we are to handle them.

In this connection, I should like to talk from the point of view of the county I represent. A neighbouring county may have totally different problems. A very large amount of the oats grown all over this country is consumed by the farmers themselves—I mean that it is fed by the farmers to their stock—and, therefore, a lot of it is consumed on the farm. The County Meath might grow a lot of oats and a lot of that oats would be for sale. A certain amount of it was fed to racehorses and to thoroughbred live stock and so on, but now that a larger amount of it is grown and racehorses not so profitable a great deal of it is grown as a cash crop, and quite a number of farmers in County Meath believe it to be so. You will find oats and wheat grown together. The position last year was serious from their point of view, as a result. There was barely sufficient storage accommodation for wheat, and the result was that farmers were not able to dispose of their oats, even at the price of 13/6 or 14/- because the fact was that the buyer—the merchant or the miller—had not any place to put it since the stores were all full of wheat. Now, if we grow, say, twice as much this year, the position will be much more difficult unless we are in a position to encourage, in one way or another, the merchants and others to provide storage for oats, as well as drying machinery, silos and the other things for wheat and, if necessary, for oats. All seasons will not be as good as last year, and if we happen to be so unlucky as to get a damp season there will be the greatest possible difficulty in handling this large quantity of wheat. To my mind, if there is one thing that would encourage farmers to grow large quantities of wheat and large quantities of oats it would be the fact that there are arrangements made to take the oats and wheat off their hands as rapidly as possible.

It is now so long since you had tillage operations in County Meath that the old granaries and stores that farmers once held there have now disappeared. At any cost, wheat must now be dried and, consequently, must be taken to the miller immediately, and if he has not adequate facilities to dry that wheat and to store a certain quantity of it after drying, while waiting transport to other mills, the wheat is going to go wrong. Consequently, it is incumbent on the Dáil or on the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or whatever Ministry is concerned, to see that we have adequate facilities here in the way of elevators, dryers, silos, or whatever the technical term may be. If farmers could be assured, and if we could assure them when we go down to speak to them, that that is the case, then the farmers will produce their crops, and if they do not do it others will take their land from them and do it, and do it with confidence.

I have no idea what the proper procedure is, and I am not going to suggest it. There are others who can suggest the proper procedure. I only want to contribute the ideas I hold and the knowledge I have of the particular difficulties of the County Meath with a view to having these difficulties removed so as to allow the people and the farmers of that county to join enthusiastically in the effort to produce the necessary food stuffs. A certain situation is arising there now. Some of the farmers who could not store their oats last year took a very low price for it, and some of them injured it by keeping it. Those who had storage for it kept the oats, and now the millers are finding it extremely difficult to buy it from them because, naturally, they want a good price for it. They were lucky men who had it in store, but what is the general public to do if they cannot obtain oaten meal, and if the farmers generally hold up the oat supply? Therefore, one of the important things that we have to see done here is to see that there is ample storage accommodation and that there are ample dryers here. They may be extremely expensive—I have not any idea of that—but certainly, to my mind, in a country such as ours, that is subject to extremely damp harvests and damp grain, some effort should be made to see that these dryers are dis tributed as far as possible in the hands of those whose job it is to handle the crop in that way.

County Meath may not suffer as much from the want of artificial manures as other counties. The county contains a great amount of land that has been untouched for very many years. That land contains a great amount of hidden fertility, and consequently would produce, in an emergency, such an amount of wheat and food for the people that they would not suffer to any great extent. As Deputy Maguire pointed out, none of us know what conditions we may have to face before the war is over. The problem that confronts us is to get through this conflict with as little damage, as little confusion and as little hardship as we possibly can. We should devote our attention towards seeing that our position remains intact, notwithstanding the fact that we may get no shipments of wheat until next May or June, when it will be welcome and when, I take it, we can pay for it. However, that should not prevent our farmers from producing all the food they possibly can.

As some Deputies have referred to the distribution of petrol, I wish to say that the shortage is a misfortune in some counties, even in my constituency, where there are areas that are very isolated indeed. In these areas there may be fully registered cars, or a type of car that is for hire. Every effort should be made to see that at least one car will be available in every district in case any person may have to be rushed to hospital or may require urgent medical attention. It would be a calamity to leave such districts completely isolated. Every Deputy knows such areas in his constituency. When the Minister for Supplies is considering the whole question I am sure he will be careful to see that some sort of supply is provided for these districts. While we can manage without petrol we cannot manage without food supplies. It would mean a complete collapse here if food supplies were not available. It would not be to our discredit if petrol was not procurable, but in a country like this that is generally fertile, it would be an awful discredit if we were not able to produce sufficient food to maintain ourselves and also our independence during this period.

In Meath we have to face this problem, that there are areas of the county reasonably well populated but large fertile areas in which there are no people. That raises a harvesting problem. If we were in a position to give a lead to the farmers of County Meath, by telling them that they would get whatever help they wanted to harvest their crops in thinly populated areas, and that there would be people to take the crops from them when ripe, there would not be any need to say much to them about the necessity of feeding the people. The farmers are all prepared to do that, and to utilise their land for that purpose, but they see a difficulty in getting crops to their final destination and to the people. If we could remove that cloud and show them that the question has been considered it would be one of the greatest encouragement to farmers to produce all the foodstuffs that are necessary.

I think it will be recognised that the people have been looking forward to the proceedings of this Assembly to-day, not merely with anxiety but possibly with some degree of hope. The events of the last fortnight or three weeks have undoubtedly spread throughout the country a feeling of deep disquiet and uneasiness. The manner in which the petrol situation was handled, and the dislocation of business consequent thereon, has left in the people a feeling that if that is going to happen with that particular commodity, what next crisis is going to confront them? They began to feel that possibly they have been allowed to live during the past 12 months in somewhat of a fool's paradise. If the impression which this debate has made upon me permeates throughout the country, I think the people will have little cause for satisfaction, because the impression left in my mind from the Minister's speech, and from his numerous interruptions, notwithstanding all the affirmations he may make from time to time, to the contrary, is the startling one, that the sinking of two ships has rocked the economic structure of this State to its very foundations.

So far as I have been able to understand from the speeches made to-day nothing has happened since Christmas except the sinking of two ships. We have been listening for months past to tales of misery and woe over the wireless on the sinking of ships elsewhere, the loss of tonnage and the consequent dislocation of economic life throughout the world. It should, therefore, be no surprise, even to the Ministry, enveloped perhaps as they are in the veil of neutrality, that ships are likely to be sunk. The Minister for Supplies ought to realise that his function is to supply things and not to say afterwards: "How was I to know that ships were going to be sunk?" That is what he said to-day in an interruption during Deputy Dillon's speech. Deputy Dillon was speaking about the way in which the petrol situation was handled and the Minister said: "How was I to know that these two ships were going to be sunk?" It was his business to anticipate that that was likely to happen. I do not suppose anyone was not aware that such an event was almost certain to happen, and the great failure of the Department of Supplies was in not having taken adequate steps months ago to meet such a situation as arose at Christmas in connection with the supply of petrol. The sinking of two ships dislocated our transport system, dislocated private business and threw a large number of people out of employment. It had repercussions in practically every aspect of our economic life, all because two ships were sunk when ships are being sunk over all the oceans of the world daily.

Because two, and only two were sunk we are faced here with the necessity of having to call the Dáil in order to allay the fears of the country as to what was happening. We find the conclusion to be irresistible that if these two tankers had not been sunk at Christmas, the Dáil would not have been called to-day, and the country would not have this opportunity of discussing the question of essential food supplies and essential services and we would not have the opportunity of waking up to the dangers confronting the country. As far as we can gather, apparently the Ministry was living in this fool's paradise, or else were content, if they had the knowledge, that the country was in danger, economic or otherwise. They were content to leave the people in ignorance of the true situation, and to let them carry on, in the belief that all was well in the best possible part of the whole world. It seems to me that the position would have been, if these two ships had not been sunk, that this country would have gone on gaily as before. I think it was no mere coincidence that this letter to Deputies—or rather to some Deputies, as some of us did not get it—from the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Agriculture, or whoever it was, asking them to join in a national campaign about wheat-growing, only emerged on the 7th January, just at the moment the country was plunged in its deepest disturbance over the petrol supplies.

It may be that that was one of the devices so frequently practised before by the Ministry—endeavouring to divert attention from one mess by trying to attract attention to something which would ultimately land the country in another. That did not matter to the Ministry, as long as the attention was taken away from the particular futility and fatuous conduct in which the Ministry was indulging. It may have been a coincidence that that notice was sent forth at that time of petrol dislocation: it may have been a coincidence that it was in the midst of this disturbance that the Minister took occasion to warn the country about the imminence of famine, giving special interviews to the Press when speeches were being made throughout the country about petrol supplies. I doubt if we would have heard one single word of these things if it had not been for the fact that these two ships were sunk about Christmas time, that the Ministry had not anticipated that they would be sunk and that they had no arrangements made to meet a situation of that kind.

Undoubtedly, the country has received a great shock and is entitled to get the fullest possible information. The people look to this Assembly, if not to allay their fears, at least to tell them the truth, so that they may, as they always have done, face this and brace themselves for any ordeal that may be in front of them. If there is no ordeal in front of them, well and good, but if there is, let them know the worst rather than have these imaginary fears of a national disaster and of national woe running riot throughout the country as they are at present owing to the events of the last three weeks. The Government ought to give the fullest possible information now in reference to matters in which it is possible to give it, so that the people will know precisely where they stand.

At the beginning of this war I took occasion, in one of the few remarks I made at the time, to appeal to the Minister for Supplies so far as possible to keep up the supply and distribution of petrol. At the outset of the remarks I have to make now in reference to this petrol situation, I believe I ought to speak on behalf of what has been rather contemptuously referred to by many people as "the owner of the private motor car." There has been a lot of talk about essential services and about what is to be done in the way of keeping supplies for those engaged in so-called essential services. I am interested in the supply of petrol, not from the point of view of giving joy-rides to the owners of motor cars, but from that of people in my own constituency and elsewhere who are dependent directly or indirectly on the continuance of the motor trade in all its branches. There are far more people dependent on the motor trade than many people imagine. There are huge numbers of people directly engaged in that trade— mechanics, distributors of petrol, sellers of cars, clerks, typists and so on.

There are also chauffeurs employed by private individuals and people who do part-time gardening and part-time driving; and then there are also the people in humbler circumstances doing the more difficult jobs of cleaning, oiling and washing cars for private owners. There are also clerks in insurance companies. In fact, I could multiply the list of those engaged in the motor trade and it would amount to many thousands of people directly or indirectly dependent on its continuance. Therefore, this problem should not be narrowed and restricted —as apparently it is being—by Civil Service and bureaucratic points of view, merely in order to ensure supplies for people engaged in so-called essential services. The owner of the private motor car should be given great consideration and not thrown on the scrap-heap in this fashion. It is on the private motor car that many men and women depend for their business or trade. It may not be a trade or business that is called an essential service, but it is very essential that those people should be able to earn their livelihood and speed in transport is one point which enables them to improve their capacity for earning money, to maintain families dependent on those earnings.

Apart from that aspect of the case, going down to the humbler class, the mechanics in the motor shops are largely dependent, not on buses or lorries, but on the owners of private motor cars. The owners of the big buses and lorries have combines for their own establishments and their own private places where mechanics are employed. The ordinary poor man earning his living in a garage as a mechanic or helper is absolutely dependent on the influx of private motor cars. Because two ships have been sunk, no more private motor cars are allowed on the road, and as far as I can gather it seems to be a sort of virtue in Government Departments and amongst the officials generally, a sort of holy thought, that something is being done in the work of national improvement when the owners of private cars are tricked into paying their tax and get no petrol. In very many of these cases the ownership and driving of a car involve the livelihood of people in humble circumstances.

I had occasion myself to feel the impact on one poor man in my own employment, as a result of these operations in the Christmas period. I do not think any reasonable person in the country can understand the reason for this state of affairs. Petrol had been distributed lavishly up to Christmas, but after Christmas Eve, without one word of warning, there is the sudden statement that there is no petrol; and there is official silence for days and then an announcement that coupons are to remain at their face value, and "dare anybody use their cars without paying the tax" as there would be a posse of police standing at street corners and in doorways ready to pounce upon anyone who should dare to get a pint of petrol for an untaxed car.

The Minister waxed very indignant during the course of one of his interruptions when he asked Deputy Dillon —and subsequently, I think, Deputy O'Higgins—to give him any quotation where he or his colleagues or any official stated to the owners of motor-cars anything which could be interpreted either as a threat or as an inducement to the owners of motor cars to tax their cars. There is no such quotation available. The Minister for Supplies takes refuge in the fact that he was clever enough not to put upon record any such threat or any such inducement. He was much too clever to put himself on record in such a manner that any individual who taxed a car in the face of a statement of that kind could prefer an indictment against him for getting money under a false promise. But that, in effect, was what was done, although no official statement was issued that could be seized upon. But 99 per cent., in fact I think 100 per cent., of those who taxed their cars got this impression—it was carefully disseminated in a way that it could not be pinned down to individuals, whether officials or Ministers—"Tax your car for the full year and you are a good citizen; tax it for a quarter and we will get after you in a way in which you will feel the full weight of our official action when we come to distribute petrol from the tanks that are on their way here." That was the kind of feeling that induced large numbers of people to tax their cars. Numbers found it out quickly and stopped the cheque for their quarter's tax, but there were others who had paid out the money for a quarter and quite a number for a full year. Now it is regarded as a sort of virtue that the owners of private motor-cars are not to get petrol for the use of their cars, having taxed and insured them. They must suffer not merely the inconvenience of being without them, but possibly the loss of income. This will certainly lead to the creation of additional unemployment.

Primarily, from the point of view of employment in the city and, generally, throughout the country, I want to make this protest against the iniquity of the system that apparently is going to be put into operation under the rationing system. I can see no change from the situation that existed last year right up to Christmas, or from what apparently is likely to happen in the course of the next few months. Apparently, supplies of petrol were coming in at regular intervals during the last 12 months. At all events, if not adequate supplies, at least some considerable supplies of petrol were available. The owners of private cars who used them for business purposes, or even for private and pleasure purposes, were given, if not an adequate supply of petrol, at least a sufficiency. We are now told by the Minister for Supplies that that situation cannot continue. All that has happened is that two ships have gone down. The storage available for the petrol from these two ships, if they had arrived, was empty for a short time, but we may take it that it will soon be filled because it is common knowledge that one tanker has come in in the last few days. What is going to stop petrol from coming again? Since two ships have been sunk, I suppose the Minister will say that it has now dawned on him that tankers coming here are likely to be sunk. But why cannot he do now what he should have done 12 months ago—take steps to deal with the likely probability of tankers coming even to this country being sunk?

Deputy Dillon made a statement about storage which was indignantly denied by the Minister for Supplies. It is common knowledge that certain people here were prepared to erect further storage for petrol. What I would like to know, and what I think most people who are now being hit in the matter of earning a livelihood will want to know, is this: why, during the last 12 months, additional emergency storage was not created so that a sufficiency of petrol could have been kept to carry the country over this unforeseen emergency? Two ships have been sunk and nearly three weeks have passed, but I suppose that in another month or so the tanks will be full again. Why cannot steps be taken even now to continue the system that operated last year so that the motor trade, the employees in that trade and others depending for a livelihood on the maintenance of motoring, public and private, will not have to face again the situation that arose at Christmas. The Minister for Supplies again made the illuminating observation, in the course of his cross talk with Deputy Dillon, in a reference to the suggestion that certain people or firms were prepared some years ago to set up additional storage in this country, that if the petrol companies would fill their available storage they would solve his problem. I must say that that statement came with startling effect upon me, because I think the only meaning that can be given to it is, that there is, in fact, in this country additional storage available which has not been filled. The petrol companies, the Minister for Supplies said, have available storage and they will not fill it for me. I think we are entitled to know why, and to be told by the Minister, before this debate concludes, to what extent there is available storage at the disposal of the petrol companies which, the Minister says, they will not fill, and why they have not filled it during the last 12 months. Why did they not put sufficient petrol there to cover this unforeseen emergency of two ships having been sunk? I gather that the whole problem of the Minister would be solved if the petrol companies had filled their tanks. Surely they could have gathered in a supply that would be equal to what was lost in the two ships that were sunk.

I think that, because of all this, the country has a right to be shocked. The country through the Dáil, which has been summoned by the Leader of the Opposition, is in my opinion entitled to get the fullest possible information on all these matters because no matter what is said here now the feeling has become deep-seated and deep-rooted— it will be very hard to eradicate it— that the country is being run in blinkers. People are getting the feeling that they will not know they are going over the precipice until they are actually at the edge of it. The experience of the last few weeks makes it imperative that the Dáil should sit continuously. We from this side of the House have given the Government the fullest possible co-operation in the difficult circumstances that have existed, and that have confronted the Government in the last 15 or 16 months. We are still willing to give that, but a halt had to be called sometime on economic matters. The time has now come when the problems that confront the country must be tackled and faced in public.

I want to address a few words to the House on the question of wheat. as it affects the city areas and urban workers. I have said that I did not receive the Minister's letter asking me to co-operate in this great national campaign on wheat growing. That was possibly because I represent a city constituency. Well, if my constituents in Ringsend and Rathmines do not grow wheat, at any rate they eat bread. I think that my constituents, the working people there and the working classes throughout the country generally, are entitled to know what effect the Minister's proposal in reference to this grand national campaign of wheat growing is going to have on the cost of bread for them, and on the cost of living in general. This Party has stood for the rights of the farmers in bad times and it will stand for their rights now, when possibly they have some even remote glimmer of good times, and will see, so far as lies within their power, that the farmers, if they do indulge in this orgy of wheat growing in which the Minister wants them to indulge, they will get an adequate payment for their efforts. But I must raise a voice in warning against any possibility of that campaign resulting in an increase in the price of bread.

Will you accept black bread from barley meal?

Deputy Belton has anticipated what I was going to say. I understand that with the supplies of wheat grown last year and those which we could get in, there is only one-fifth of our supply lacking, and I am perfectly certain that the people of the country would do with one-fifth less bread rather than have to pay an increased price for it, because the point is coming when they will not be able to buy any bread, much less pay the increased price which Deputy Belton apparently wants to extract from the consumers of bread. I do not mind what Deputy Belton gets for the farmers, but I do say that so far as I am personally concerned I feel it my duty to sound here at the outset this note of warning, that whatever this campaign of wheat-growing is going to result in, steps must be taken, at the very start, to see that it is not going to result in an increase in the price of bread to the working people. I think that is much more important than any national campaign of wheat-growing.

We are going to have huge unemployment as a result of this petrol mess; we are going to have huge unemployment as a result of what I have been protesting against—the failure to give supplies of petrol to what are known as the owners of private cars or people not engaged in essential services. If you are going to have the price of bread put up any further, and if, side by side with that policy, the Government policy, announced by, I think, two successive Ministers for Finance is to be that they are not going to see that wages and cost of living will run after each other—I think that was the phrase used by the Minister for Finance some years ago—that they are going to have a policy of stabilisation of the workers' wages and that whatever happens, whatever the price of bread is, the Government are going to set their faces against increased wages for the workers, I would say that if you are going to have this national campaign of wheat-growing, have a national campaign, too, to see that the millers get less profits and that, by some means of that kind or some other kind, the price of bread is not going to be raised to the poor people. I think that aspect of the case has been rather overlooked. It is natural that the farmers who have suffered so much at the hands of the Government and from the policy of the Government during the last few years should now say that if they are going to dislocate their economy and if they are going to do this service for the country which the Government says they ought to do, they ought at least to be well-paid for it, and more power to them if they do get well paid for it.

If they do not do it, what is going to happen?

Then the situation will be easily met by what Deputy Morrissey said to-night—grow more potatoes and do with less bread. White bread is a luxury, and we can do it, if necessary, but it is not necessary, because if the millers or some other people who are making money out of this wheat scheme are content to have less profit, the farmers will get a good price for wheat and the workers will not be charged increased prices. There is some method by which this can be settled and by which the millions of money pouring into the hands of the millers during the last five or six years can be diverted and directed into the pockets of the workers and the consumers in general. I want at the very outset to raise that point and, so far as I am personally concerned, it is the viewpoint I intend to adopt on this so-called national campaign of wheat growing.

The last point I want to make is in relation to perhaps another unpopular class—a class of taxpayers. We are going ahead with schemes of one kind or another and we are going to pay this, that, and the other for this, that, and the other commodity. I have asked the question, not directly, in connection with bread, but I ask it in connection with all future schemes: Who is going to pay the price? Who is going to pay for the unemployment that is being caused by the mess in connection with petrol which has been created by the Government? The income-tax payer. There is going to be a loss of revenue from taxation on petrol products; there is going to be a loss of revenue from the registration fees of cars; and there is going to be a huge demand for unemployment assistance in one shape or another as a result of the unemployment that will be created amongst those directly and indirectly dependent on the continuance of the motor trade. Who is going to pay for that? Who is going to pay for the bread and for the unemployment? The farmers must be paid a reasonable price to compensate them, but who is going to pay the subsidy to the farmers? Is it going to be the consumer or the taxpayer, or both? I should say that, like the maize-meal mixture scheme of the Minister for Agriculture, it will be a mixture of both. The consumer is going to pay a whack in the hope that he will not notice it and income-tax payers will have to pay some more.

I want again to sound this note of warning against any further increase in income-tax. The rate of income-tax in this country when we are supposed to be at peace is almost equivalent, as I said in the Budget debate last year, to the rate of income-tax in England, the greatest Empire in the world, fighting for its very existence, and we are getting nothing for it. On behalf of those constituents of mine in my own constituency and of income-taxpayers throughout the country, I want to issue the warning that we have reached the limits of our taxation, and any further taxation will result not merely in reduced yield but largely increased unemployment. People of the income-tax paying class will have to cut down expenses, and every expense cut down results in unemployment of one type or another. Cut out your motor-car, either because you have to because the Minister blunders, or because you cannot afford it, and some humble person suffers. The debate, as I said at the beginning of my observations, ought to allay the feelings of uneasiness and anxiety that exist throughout the length and breadth of the country, but I rather fancy that so far as it has gone the debate will do at least one good thing. It will show the people where they stand and will show them at least that they can no longer depend on the fact that the Government should be allowed to work, in economic matters, without the constant supervision of the Opposition and of the Dáil.

The type of supervision we have had to-day?

I have been wondering during the course of this debate what, in fact, was the purpose which this motion was thought to serve. According to Deputy Cosgrave, the mover of the motion, it was to give the public some assurance, if assurance were to be had, in regard to this question of vital supplies; but, as I listened to Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Costello, I began to think that the real purpose of this motion was to indicate to the public that there was a bark in the old dog yet, that after all, the Opposition was up and doing, and that the old game of political partisanship was still going to be played as vigorously as ever in this country, even in this time of emergency and danger for us all. In connection with the whole of this matter, I think it is only right, in view of some of the statements which have been made to-day, to remind the House that, when the Dáil adjourned on 12th December last, it adjourned until 5th February next. That date was fixed by agreement. It would have been open to any members to suggest a shorter adjournment and to have pressed that suggestion. I have no doubt that if, at that time, it had appeared necessary, or even desirable, to have a shorter adjournment, that could have been arranged very easily by agreement.

There has never been any ground for the suggestion that the Government has been in any way reluctant to call the Dáil, to meet the House and to discuss the present situation. When the Leader of the Opposition requested that the Dáil be called for to-day, January 16th, the Taoiseach at once took the necessary steps to have it convened. It will be admitted I think that we, the members of the Government, who have, as is well known, our hands fairly full at the moment, are entitled to take the view that, when an adjournment to a definite date has been agreed upon, then, unless representative members of the House—in particular, the responsible leaders of the organised Parties in the Chamber—indicate that, in their view, it is desirable that the Dáil should meet to discuss matters of national importance, the members of the Dáil and the country as a whole feel that, perhaps, better work is being done by Ministers and those responsible for the administration and the conduct of affairs in this State than might be done by listening to speeches such as some of the speeches we have listened to to-day.

I do not think that those speeches are calculated to strengthen the feeling of national solidarity which has prevailed since the beginning of this emergency. I think that this meeting might have been of great public service. I felt that it was likely to be of such service after I had listened to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. After listening to the speech of Deputy Dillon and to the speech of Deputy Costello, I am afraid my belief is somewhat shaken. What service is it to the country, in the present international situation, for Deputy Dillon to treat us to his electioneering epigrams about the Government's ineptitude and "gold bricks," such as we have heard from him? These speeches are, after all, only a public indication that he is finding some difficulty in curbing the old Adam of political partisanship which is still strong within him. I think that speeches of that sort do no service to himself and they, certainly, do no service to the State in the present situation.

What has been the gravamen of this attack upon the Government? It has been said that, suddenly, those who have been accustomed to rely upon petrol for various purposes—business requirements or as an essential element in productive activities or as an amenity of life, to such of them as can so enjoy it—found that their supply had been curtailed. "We have no petrol." Accordingly, is the Minister for Supplies, who succeeded up to Christmas in maintaining a supply of petrol for users in this country which was not to be equalled anywhere in Europe, who built up a system of supply which successfully carried us through 16 months of the war, when he finds on Christmas Eve that one of the tankers coming here is not going to arrive on its due date, to be told by Deputy Costello that that is an indication that the people have been living in a fool's paradise? Perhaps they have—I shall come to that later— but that they have been living in a fool's paradise created by this Government is, emphatically, not the case.

I should like members of the House to throw their minds back to the atmosphere which existed here on the day that Great Britain declared war, when we told the people that they were going to be called upon to face, perhaps, untold hardships and when we painted a picture which, up to now, has not been realised in actual fact but which we anticipated would have existed 12 months ago. When we told the people that, we were told we were dismal jimmies. When we brought in a Supplementary Budget in November, 1939, and imposed taxes so that we might build up our defences, provide our people with such an army as we could afford to support, provide them with an A.R.P. system and endeavour to safeguard them against the sort of future now looming before us, we were told that all this was unnecessary, that we were merely painting this gloomy picture so that the people might hesitate to criticise us or to put us out of office. That was the situation that existed 12 months ago when we thought that we should have to introduce not merely a rationing scheme for petrol, such as was then in existence, but a rationing scheme for other articles and other commodities much more vital to our national existence. We in this community have gone on in our merry way. We have had plenty of good food. We have not been stinted in anything since the war broke out—for it has not hitherto been necessary to stint ourselves—and now we are told by Deputy Costello that the sinking of two ships has disrupted our whole economic system. Has anybody out of Bedlam ever heard such nonsense talked by a responsible Deputy supposed to be speaking as a member of the front bench of a responsible Party? I am sorry I allowed myself to express that sentiment in that way. I had not intended to do so and I should like to withdraw that reference to Deputy Costello.

May I recall what did happen in September, 1939? As Deputy O'Higgins has told the House, the Minister for Supplies took over control of the petrol supplies. set up a rationing scheme and, what is important, made arrangements to ensure that a supply of petrol to fulfil that rationing scheme would be available. That scheme, as I have said, has been in operation in this country since September, 1939. Day in and day out, though war has raged around us, though the high seas have been strewn with shipwrecked crews, though people elsewhere have been looking enviously at us, petrol was available to meet the coupons issued by the Minister for Supplies, and now, for the first time since rationing started, the ration has had to be curtailed. How is that situation met? Again, as I said, I do not make any complaint against the speech that was made by Deputy Cosgrave. But how has that situation been met by Deputy Dillon, by Deputy Costello and, to a lesser extent, by Deputy O'Higgins? They have tried to use the petrol which is not here to make incendiary bombs. That has been the whole purpose of this debate—to try to get the utmost Party advantage from the fact that, for the first time in 16 months, the petrol supply of this country has had to be curtailed and the ration has had to be cut down for a time, whether a long time or a short time we do not know. Nobody knows and nobody can take any steps which will ensure that the time will be short. That curtailment of the petrol ration has been laboured throughout this debate. I do not want to minimise the consequences of that curtailment upon the livelihood and the convenience of a great number of our people, but surely, if we came here to discuss the restriction in the petrol allowance, those who wished to discuss it and those who, in order to do their duty, were, I think, bound to discuss it, might have come here and given us the benefit of their advice and secured from the country credit for having been able to make one practical suggestion which might have helped us out.

About what?

As to how the dislocation of the petrol supply might have been avoided in the past and how it could be avoided in the future.

Nobody knew anything about dislocation until about a fortnight ago.

I have been listening here from three o'clock until now, quite patiently, and I should like, if I may, to be heard without interruption for the few minutes that are left.

Do not be provocative, then.

Mr. Brennan

He is asking questions.

I have not asked any question. I have said this, that those who felt bound to discuss this situation, who wanted to discuss it here at any rate, might have come armed with some suggestions which would have been of public service to the country as a whole, to themselves in the next place, and to the Government. They might have tried to help us to assist the country and to assist the Government, as every honest citizen ought to be prepared to assist it, in trying to do better for the future than it has been able to do in the past. But we have not heard any such suggestion. We heard Deputy Costello labouring this point of his ad nauseam, that the sinking of the two ships had dislocated the whole economic system, that if the two ships had not been sunk, the Dáil would not have been summoned and we should not have this opportunity of discussing the whole situation. He says, which is quite true, that the Ministry did not anticipate that these ships would be sunk and had no arrangements made to face a situation of this kind. It is a pity that Deputy Costello did not tell us what arrangements in his view could have been made in this situation. Does he suggest that we might have provided these tankers with torpedo-proof or bomb-proof convoys? Does he suggest that, instead of having one tanker or two on the high seas, we might have had three or four or a whole fleet? How does he think we ought to have met the situation which was created by the unexpected and unanticipated sinking of these ships which were bringing petrol to our shores?

Deputy O'Higgins said that this interruption in the supply had been in the nature of a headlong collision. How could Deputy O'Higgins have prevented this headlong collision of his? I think that is what he said. I think it might have been more helpful to the nation, and certainly it would have added more to the prestige of the Dáil, with which Deputy O'Higgins professed to be very much concerned, if we had had from him one real practical suggestion as to how—again to use Deputy O'Higgins's words—this headlong collision could have been prevented.

He did not say "headlong".

"Head-on".

I am a purist.

I do not know whether the Deputy heard him or not. The Deputy may be a purist, but perhaps my hearing is somewhat imperfect. I thought he said "headlong".

The Minister is headlong but he is not head-on at the moment.

I do not think the Deputy is either long in the head or in foresight.

What about storage?

If this is not going to be a serious debate I shall sit down. If Deputy McGilligan wishes to come in here and play-act as he has been playacting for the few minutes he has been sitting here, I think it would be better to adjourn the Dáil. I do not think it is conducive in any way to the better conduct of this House to have that sort of thing happening every time the Deputy enters.

Go on, headlong or head-on. What about storage?

The Minister is in possession.

We have been told by Deputy O'Higgins that this curtailment occurred without any notice being given. Deputy Costello said, I think, that because these two ships had been sunk employees in garages are being suddenly thrown out of work. I would like really to try to see what was in the minds of the Deputies when they were making these suggestions. Surely Deputy Costello does not believe that these were the first tankers that were sunk coming to this country. When they were sunk undoubtedly it was necessary to curtail supplies with all the serious consequences which he so forcibly represented to the House. But should we have taken that step earlier? Because, in fact, that seems to be really what was at the back of the criticisms of Deputy O'Higgins and of Deputy Costello—that instead of waiting until these last ships were sunk to curtail the petrol ration, we ought to have taken that step earlier, when previous ships were sunk, that is to say, in fact, that the men who are now going to be thrown out of employment because the petrol supply has had to be curtailed, ought to have been sacked weeks ago or perhaps months ago. Of course, if that had happened, if, when the earlier ships were sunk, we had curtailed the petrol supply and the garage employees and all those with whom Deputy Costello was so concerned, and with whom we are all concerned, had been thrown out of work, we would have been told then, not that we had delayed in curtailing the supply, but that we were taking action much too early and that it would be far better to carry on until it became absolutely essential to restrict the petrol in order to ensure that the more essential services could be provided for as well as may be. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Friday, 17th January, at 10.30 a.m.
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