Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 May 1941

Vol. 82 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Lands (resumed).

Minister for Lands (Mr. Derrig)

When the debate was adjourned last night, I was explaining that representations had been made to the Land Commission so far back as 1932 for the acquisition of the lands of Maria Grace, County Tipperary. It was represented that these lands were non-residential, constantly let, giving no employment, deteriorating and a source of agitation and, at certain times, of outrage, in the locality. The proprietor is an old lady who lives in Dublin. She has some house property in Cashel. I need scarcely go into her personal affairs, though these were made known in the course of the proceedings in the Land Court, and I gather from Deputy Byrne's remarks that there has been correspondence in the local Press on the matter. I should be rather surprised, however, if this particular case could meet with very much sympathy in the district in which the lands are situate. For example, if Miss Grace had gone to live on the land, or in the vicinity, say, in the town of Cashel, where she has this house property, it is quite possible that it might have been made exceedingly difficult for the Land Commission to take over these lands, but the fact is that she had not been residing there for years, although she certainly gave the impression, to put it very mildly, that she was prepared to go back there and live in the course of the frequent representations which were made to the Department of Lands on her behalf.

This is really the type of case in which, if the Land Commission were not to proceed, it is difficult to see in what type of case they would be justly entitled to take proceedings for acquisition. There has been an agitation in the neighbourhood for a considerable number of years. It is a very thinly populated area in which there are very large holdings, and the agitation concentrated itself on cases like these Grace lands, which, it was urged, were not being utilised in the interest of the community. The Land Commission is bound to proceed in these cases. However, this case, far from being proceeded with with any degree of precipitancy, was really the cause of considerable delay. The notices for the institution of proceedings were made so far back as 1934. There were objections, and before the matter could be completed it was found that, owing to the flaw of which the House is aware, and which had to be righted in the 1939 Land Act, the matter could not be completed, but possession of the lands was eventually sought in May, 1937. In May, 1938, a price was fixed by the appeal tribunal in respect of the 265 acres being acquired from Miss Grace. Even after that, there was considerable agitation as to the slowness of the Department in dealing with the matter.

In July, 1940, the final list was published, fixing 19th July, 1940, was the appointed day; but as a result of representations on Miss Grace's behalf, the appointed day was subsequently postponed until 1st January, 1941, on which date the land bonds representing the purchase money were placed to credit in the matter. She refused to give possession, and we had to apply to the Judicial Commissioner for an order for possession. The position is that the reward we received for leniency and for paying attention to representations is that, at this critical stage in the country's affairs, when it is necessary to have every available acre under tillage, these lands were not being tilled. The Minister for Agriculture had the lands taken over and straightaway set no less than 100 acres for tillage.

Deputy Byrne speaks of an eviction. There is no eviction. I have explained that the compensation has been placed to credit, and so far as we are concerned everything has been carried out in a legal manner, and, I think, also with due regard to the circumstances of the owner. To speak of an eviction is simply begging the question. The case is one of the worst in the country from the point of view of the amount of agitation and the amount of harm it would do if we were not to take action of some kind or another. The fact that the Minister for Agriculture has had to take this action is sufficient proof, if proof be needed, of the seriousness of the situation.

Mr. Dillon

You wanted to legalise land grabbing, so I suppose you may as well grab this woman's land as anybody else's.

Mr. Derrig

Had we taken action last year the situation would probably have been much better, but we deferred to urgent representations. I wish categorically to deny the Deputy's statement that this is an eviction. It is a case in which we should have been given possession long ago. We postponed the date and now we have had to go to the Judicial Commissioner to get a special order.

Mr. Curran

Is the Minister not aware that, on her own statement, she is getting simply nothing out of this farm? Might I put this to the Minister: would he even now consider leaving her some portion of the holding, so as to recompense her in some way rather than take this land from her for nothing whatever? While no representations have been made to me in the matter, I have seen a letter from her in the public Press, and I mention the matter merely for that reason. I realise that she owes money to the bank and that the bank are taking all the money she will get for the holding, and I appeal to the Minister not to take the whole 260 acres.

Mr. Derrig

I have nothing whatever to do with the personal circumstances of individuals. I am sure that there are many cases—cases were mentioned in the course of this debate, though not many—which deserve more consideration than this case does. I fail to see on what grounds I could be asked to exercise compassion in this case. In any event, the matter has gone completely out of my hands and, if Deputy Byrne is so interested, he should himself see whether it is not possible to do something for the persons concerned. It is typical of the Deputy that he should get up and suggest that I should approach the lady's creditors.

Mr. Curran

Would the Minister withhold the rigour of the law so as to give a chance to Deputy Byrne to see if anything can be done in connection with the matter—to approach the bank or to do something of that kind?

Mr. Byrne

Let the Minister hold up the matter for a week or two.

Mr. Derrig

I have finished with that matter.

Mr. Dillon

The spiritual children of Barrymore and Clanricarde could not stand for that. Take out the battering ram and put them out.

Mr. Derrig

Deputy Byrne has, no doubt, had opportunities of looking into the matter.

Mr. Byrne rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is in possession.

Mr. Byrne

I want to try to prevent this eviction being effected for a period if I can, with your kind permission. I do not waste much of the time of the House. I do not make long speeches and I think is a very deserving case.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

What about the Tipperary Deputies? Are they all asleep?

Mr. Dillon

Clanricarde's spiritual children are not asleep.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not interrupt in this disorderly manner.

Mr. Dillon

If Deputy Walsh invites interruptions, I must ask your indulgence if he gets them.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

That also applies to Deputy Dillon.

An Ceann Comhairle

I wonder where these provocative interruptions began.

Mr. Dillon

Amongst the spiritual offspring of Clanricarde and Barrymore.

Mr. Curran

Will the Minister make some statement on the matter?

Mr. Derrig

I have made a statement and I am not prepared to take any action in the matter.

Mr. Dillon

And the eviction takes place under an Irish Government.

Mr. Derrig

Deputy Flynn referred to Land Commission work in Kerry. I explained last night that the amount of money expended by the Land Commission in a particular area depends on the amount of land division work which is going on in that area. There is no untenanted land in Kerry. The land is all vested in the tenants, so you cannot institute an analogy with the amount spent in Mayo or Kerry, where the conditions are entirely different, where holdings are unvested, where you have the rundale system, to a great extent and a great amount of rearrangement of holdings, with the result that roads have to be made and houses built. We have to judge the circumstances of each county and the need for the activities of the Land Commission in that county. It is not through any partiality for particular counties that more money is being spent in them than in others but simply because, owing to the needs of these counties, the Land Commission have to carry on more operations in them than elsewhere.

I should be very happy and I am sure the Land Commissioners would be equally happy—they have had this matter under consideration for some time and, since I have taken charge of the Department, I have called their attention to it—to do anything possible to provide schemes of employment in Kerry. Wherever possible, the Land Commission is willing and anxious to undertake schemes which come within their province which will be useful to the landholders of Kerry and which will give employment. As matters stand, we are really confined, on account of the circumstances in Kerry, to a limited number of turbary cases. The Land Commission is doing its best, particularly since the war commenced, to deal with this question of turbary, but it takes some little time. As I explained in the House on a previous occasion, in the case of a turbary scheme where you have up to 400 tenants, where each tenant has to be satisfied, where a survey has to be carried out and each tenant's allotment of turbary marked out exactly as in the case of a holding of land, I have no doubt that the division gives more trouble than the division of land. That procedure takes a considerable time. I have urged the Land Commissioners, and shall continue to do so, to do what they can in counties like Kerry and Donegal, not alone to push forward these schemes of turbary division, but to expend further sums of money if suitable schemes are put up to them. Unfortunately, these schemes have not been put up. When they are, Deputies must remember that it is necessary for them to come within the ambit of the Department of Lands.

I forgot to mention yesterday evening, in connection with the question of the depletion of staff in the Land Commission, that there is a note at the end of the summary of sub-heads in the book of Estimates pointing out that the amount of salaries, wages and allowances includes £59,213 in respect of staff on loan to other Departments. Since the book of Estimates was printed, further staff has been taken from the Land Commission and, possibly, more staff will be taken. That gives an indication of the position. We have to carry the salaries, wages and allowances of these officers on the Land Commission Vote. That is the usual procedure. They are seconded for special work to other Departments and will, naturally, return to the Land Commission when the special duties allotted to them shall have been completed.

I was glad that Deputy Brodrick referred to the very high labour content of improvement-of-estates work and to the valuable employment which this work gives in rural areas. As he said, it is probably one of the best agencies for giving employment, because of its very high labour content. I was also glad to hear the praise bestowed on the migrants who have been transferred from the West to County Meath. As I said last year, the Land Commission have only the highest praise for these migrants. They are making the utmost possible use of their lands and are a credit, not alone to the counties from which they came, but to the county in which they have found their new homes.

Mr. Dillon

Do I hear Deputy Kelly saying "Hear, hear"?

Mr. L.J. Walsh

We are placing the people on the land.

Mr. Dillon

There is a heavy silence on the part of Deputy Kelly.

Mr. Derrig

Some Deputies raised the question of timber on Land Commission estates. Where there is a good deal of timber or plantation, the Forestry Branch generally takes over the land at an agreed figure. They may clear that land or, if the timber is likely to be valuable, they may wait until it reaches maturity. This matter will come up more properly on the Forestry Estimate, but I should like to inform the House that the whole question of timber in connection with fuel supplies is under active consideration. Firewood timber, I may say, will be made available, so far as it can be arranged, to supplement the fuel supply during the present emergency.

I should like to assure Deputy Brodrick that, where old houses are dismantled, not infrequently the Land Commission utilise the materials for building work. It may happen that purchasers of these mansion houses which have been put up for auction pull them down and sell the materials. Wherever possible, and where it is clear that the house is not likely to be used as a residence again, the Land Commissioners have in mind the advisability of using the materials themselves.

Various speakers referred to the unsuitability of persons who had got land. In reference to Deputy Davin's mention of that matter, all one can say is that people without capital or credit should not be given land. If the position is as he or some other Deputy suggested, that they succeeded in fooling the inspectors of the Land Commission as to their real means and capacity to undertake the responsibility for a holding of land, then that seems to me a great reflection on the inspectors of the Land Commission. But I feel that the inspectors are sufficiently wise and sufficiently conversant with human nature and with rural conditions generally not to make glaring mistakes of that nature.

Mr. Dillon

What about the Fianna Fáil clubs?

Mr. Derrig

Deputy Bennett referred to the prices paid for land and used the word "resumed." Land which is resumed must be paid for at the full market value—that is the law. Unvested land coming under the 1923 Act is acquired by resumption. If the Deputy means the acquisition of untenanted land, vested or freehold, for this, under the terms of the 1923 Act, a price must be paid that is fair both to the owner and to the Land Commission. Sometimes the price may be greater than the market price and sometimes less. But, in any case, the fact that in a considerable number of cases the Land Commission have succeeded in acquiring land by voluntary agreement would suggest that their prices are not as bad or as unfavourable as some Deputies would claim.

Mr. Hughes

How is the full market value determined?

Mr. Derrig

I cannot say that at the moment. I shall write to the Deputy on the matter. If Deputy Bennett has particular cases of embankments which are giving trouble, I would be glad if he would communicate with the Department. I think these are all the points raised. I should like again to assure the House that in considering applications for land preference is given, as I stated last night, to local applicants who are suitable in the categories and the order I have mentioned, namely, ex-employees, evicted tenants' representatives or evicted tenants themselves, and uneconomic holders. It is only after these classes have been disposed of that the claims of migrants can be considered.

I should like, in conclusion, again to repeat that in view of the serious depletion of staff the Land Commission cannot possibly deal with normal inquiries and I would ask Deputies to point out to those whom they can influence, or who may come to them in regard to matters which they wish to have raised with the Land Commission, that during the emergency period we cannot possibly give that attention to them that we would give normally.

With regard to the matter of foot-and-mouth disease and payment of annuities, I wish it to be understood that individual representation must be made in each particular case. The position with regard to the collection of annuities has been very satisfactory up to the present. I am hopeful that the difficulties under which the farmers labour may not be very prolonged. We will give every possible consideration to individual cases that are brought under our notice, but I must ask Deputies to write in or get individuals to write in themselves giving their receivable order number and the particulars.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister has announced that the activities of the Land Commission must be curtailed during the period of the emergency and that is very understandable. There are certain cases, a very few cases, however, where tenant purchasers have gone into arrears with their annuities, and, having gone into arrears with their annuities, have taken in grazing cattle from their neighbours and the sheriff's bailiff has gone to these tenant-purchasers' premises and seized their neighbours' cattle on the lands. In one case I have in mind the neighbours were compelled to go to the bank to raise £160 to pay the man's annuities in order to get their cattle back. In such a case, where the tenant-purchaser is willing to sell to the Land Commission, will the Land Commission consider giving preferential treatment to his application for resumption or acquisition, as the case may be, so that his neighbours may be recouped the money they had to pay in order to get their cattle released from the Land Commission's pound?

Mr. Derrig

All I can say is that I will ask the commissioners to give the Deputy's case or cases special consideration. Not alone are we limited owing to the small number of staff we have to deal with these matters at present, but there is also a definite financial limitation on us with regard to the amount of land that we can acquire in the year. We have also a certain number of commitments on hands which have not yet been cleared off. If, having regard to all the circumstances, the commissioners feel that the cases can be considered, I will certainly ask them to do what they can in the matter.

Mr. Hughes

There is a small matter referred to by me which the Minister has overlooked. I should like the Minister to tell us what has been done about payments to contractors under war clauses and if he can have the matter expedited.

Mr. Derrig

That is a very difficult matter. I called the attention of the commissioners to it when the Deputy wrote to me. I am not in a position at present to say how it stands, but I shall write to the Deputy in the matter.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister will appreciate that there are some contractors suffering from financial difficulties as a result of this and that their work is held up for want of money.

Mr. S. Brodrick

I should like to ask if it would be possible to have greater co-operation between the Land Commission and the Board of Works in the matter of employment schemes, especially in connection with turbary. When Deputies write to the Board of Works about employment schemes in connection with bogs, unless there is a certain number of registered unemployed in the district the work will not be carried out. As the Minister knows, there are very few rural districts in which a sufficient number of unemployed are registered. There may be farmers' sons available for such work, but they never register, although the need is there to carry out particular works such as drainage of bogs and roads into bogs. I should like the Minister to arrange to have the regulation with regard to the number of registered unemployed dropped during the emergency and that such works to accommodate people in the cutting of turf in the present season would be expedited. These works cannot be carried out unless this regulation is dropped during the emergency.

Mr. Derrig

The matter really does not arise on this Vote. I think the Deputy should get in touch with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. I understand that an order has been made to get over the difficulty that the Deputy speaks of, of there not being sufficient registered unemployed in the area, but I am not conversant with the details. With regard to Deputy Hughes' point, I am informed that a payment on account is being made in the case in which he is interested.

Mr. Corry

Has the Minister any information with regard to the estates which I mentioned last night, and can he tell the House when they are going to be taken over? There is a large amount of rates due to the county council out of these estates.

Mr. Derrig

I will look into the matter. As I have already explained to the House, the Land Commission has this difficulty to contend with: that it is operating in an emergency situation, and that priority must be given to commitments already well advanced, and to areas where there is undoubtedly serious congestion. I do not know whether it would be possible to establish, in the case Deputy Corry referred to, that there is serious congestion in that area. As far as the Land Commission is concerned, it would be glad if this question of derelict farms were cleared up, but I fear it is not a matter for us. Very often there are difficulties such as those which arise out of title and other matters. Apart from these difficulties, it may not appear to the commissioners that these are estates to which, in present circumstances, they should give prior treatment.

Mr. Corry

The Land Commission has these cases in hands for the last 16 years, and it is time something was done about them.

Vote put and agreed to.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-day.