asked the Taoiseach if he is aware that in a recent appointment to the post of junior resident medical officer, Cork County Home and Hospital, a Selection Board of which two well-known Cork surgeons were members, sat for a whole day to select a suitable candidate for the post; that they unanimously made a list in their considered opinion placing a young man who had just won the Bursary in surgery open to all final year medical students of the National University, first on that list, and placing second and third two candidates who had done very distinguished Honours Courses in University College, Cork, while they placed fourth a candidate who had secured a Pass degree in the Medical Course, but who was recommended by the Local Appointments Commission for the post; and whether he has considered the undesirability of asking medical men to interview candidates, examine into their qualifications and make recommendations when their recommendations are set aside by the commission.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - County Cork Appointment.
asked the Taoiseach if he is aware that the Local Appointments Commission has received protests from the members of the Selection Board which sat recently at the Cork County Home to select a candidate for the post of junior resident medical officer, Cork County Home and Hospital, and also from the secretary of South Cork Board of Public Assistance on the manner in which the candidate placed first on the list was turned down in favour of the candidate placed fourth, and considering that the latter board suggests a change in the method of selection of such candidates for future appointments, if he will indicate his intention of implementing the requests of those boards.
asked the Taoiseach if he is aware that in a recent appointment to the post of junior resident medical officer, Cork County Home and Hospital, Regulation 3 of the qualifications prescribed by the Local Appointments Commission resulted in the candidate who was placed first by the Selection Board not being appointed but in the appointment of the candidate placed fourth on the list; further, if he will state the reason for so weighting the Irish qualification against university qualifications in medicine in a purely Galltacht area as that in which the Cork County Home and Hospital is situated, and if he will consider the desirability of altering these regulations, so that while giving a specific percentage of marks for Irish, they will secure that due weight will be given to university qualifications in medicine.
I propose to take questions Nos. 3, 4 and 5 together. The statements as to matters of fact included in the questions contain a number of inaccuracies, with which, however, I do not propose to deal directly. The position regarding the appointment referred to is as follows:—
The area served by the Cork County Home and Hospital includes districts in the Gaeltacht, such as Béal Atha an Ghaorthaidh, Inse Geimhleach and Baile Mhúirne, and the regulations made by the Local Appointments Commissioners for the competition were, therefore, so worded as to ensure that a candidate without a good knowledge of Irish would not be appointed unless it was clear that no suitable qualified candidate with such knowledge was available. This is the invariable practice in such cases and it is not proposed to alter it.
The candidate recommended by the Local Appointments Commissioners had been found to have a competent knowledge of Irish and, being otherwise suitable and qualified, was, in accordance with the regulations, given an absolute preference over candidates who did not possess such knowledge. The suggestion that the recommendations of the Interview Board were set aside by the Commissioners conveys a misleading picture of the position. The duty and function of selecting and recommending a candidate must under statute be performed and exercised by the Commissioners themselves. Members of Interview Boards are asked to report to the Commissioners as to the professional qualifications and relative merits of the candidates interviewed, and to place those who are considered to be qualified professionally in order of merit from that point of view. The members of boards are furnished with copies of the regulations and can see therein the extent of the preference to be given for knowledge of Irish.
It must be remembered that in competitions of this kind there may be more than one candidate with the desired knowledge of Irish, or there may be no such candidate or, again, it may happen that the candidate selected may fail under the head of age, health or character, or may withdraw from the competition after the interview. In any of these eventualities it would be necessary to select the next candidate in order, the aim being always to secure the candidate who has the highest professional qualifications with the desired knowledge of Irish. Notwithstanding the weight given to Irish, it is, therefore, necessary to have a board who will assess and report to the Commissioners on the relative merits of the candidates from the professional point of view.
May I take it that the Taoiseach stands over this appointment? Assuming that he does, may I ask does Regulation 3, whereby preference was accorded to the person appointed in this particular case, apply to all medical and surgical appointments in non-Irish-speaking areas, or was it peculiar to the appointment in the case of the Cork County Home?
I am sure the Deputy and other Deputies in the Dáil know exactly what my function is in regard to this particular matter. There is a Commission with statutory powers set up to administer the particular Act, and when I am asked, do I stand over, or do I not stand over, an appointment, all I have got to do is to satisfy myself, when the question arises, that the competition has been carried out fairly and in accordance with general rules. Now, I have satisfied myself that this competition was carried out fairly, that the Commissioners acted within their rights, and in that respect I stand over it. I know nothing about the candidates and had nothing to do with the examining of them. The only thing is, as stated here, that an Interview Board was set up in accordance with the general practice, that that board forwarded, in order of merit, from a professional point of view, the names of the various candidates who applied, and that, in accordance with their established practice, there being here a Gaeltacht area in question, they appointed, having found one such candidate, a person who had a competent knowledge of Irish and who, at the same time, was qualified.
May I draw the attention of the Taoiseach to the fact that he has not answered my question, and that the answer he has given consists merely of a number of general statements? I have asked him whether Regulation 3 applies?
What is Regulation 3, please?
Regulation 3 says that the best qualified candidate from amongst those possessing a competent knowledge of Irish will, if otherwise suitable, be recommended. Is that a general regulation? Does it apply generally?
That is a regulation in this case, but——
Then may I ask the Taoiseach if it is the policy of the Local Appointments Commission——
The Deputy might allow the Taoiseach to complete the sentence?
In this connection I have made inquiries in regard to a particular case, and I gave in my answer— a very full answer—the facts that were supplied to me and that I asked for in this case. In regard to each particular post, as I understand it, there is an advertisement and there are also regulations which are sent to the candidates when they ask for them and they are also given to the examining board. This particular Regulation 3 was, so far as I know, simply applied directly to the post of junior resident medical officer of the Cork County Home and Hospital. I am satisfied that that is in accordance with the practice of the Commissioners in similar cases. I do not know what their practice might be in cases which are not similar. If I am asked with regard to any other particular cases I can give an answer, but I cannot give an answer covering the whole scale of their activities.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the application of a regulation of that kind to occasional appointments creates the grave suspicion that the condition is only applied to certain appointments to suit particular candidates?
No.
Will the Taoiseach admit that that interpretation can be put on the occasional application of that regulation?
It is not occasional. The whole misunderstanding is in the suggestion that this is occasional. It is done in accordance with a class where it is essential to secure a person with a competent knowledge of Irish, particularly where there is any question of Gaeltacht services.
Might I put this to the Taoiseach? In his reply he said that patients come there from the Gaeltacht areas of Ballingeary, Inchigeela and Ballyvourney. Is he aware that there is a cottage hospital in Macroom which deals with the people from that area and that when there was a vacancy some time ago for a medical officer there this rule was not enforced? I also want to put it to the Taoiseach that 99 per cent. of the persons in the Cork County Home come from the City of Cork and the surrounding districts. I also want to put it to him that in that case when they were appointing a junior house surgeon the candidate who was placed first had secured first place in the three colleges in surgery and that the candidate who got the other appointment simply passed. Is there not to be any consideration for medical qualifications as against a knowledge of Irish? I suggested in my question that a specific percentage of marks should be given for Irish and that medical qualifications for a medical appointment should be the main consideration. I am not concerned with this appointment particularly, because the person concerned has gone to England, but I am concerned about future appointments so that such a thing will not happen again. I am suggesting to the Taoiseach that the proper thing in the best interests of the language would be to give a certain percentage of marks for Irish—I do not care what the percentage is——
That would be no use.
——20, 30 or 40 and that the medical qualifications in connection with a medical appointment should be taken into consideration more than any other.
The Deputy is now raising a big question—the Government policy in regard to Irish. That matter could not be debated now.
On the basis of that appointment clearly medical and surgical qualifications count for less than nothing.
If the Deputy has a question to put he had better put it and not debate the whole position of Irish on a question.
Can I put this to the Taoiseach?
I have not been allowed to answer other questions put to me already. Everybody knows what the difficulty is in a case of this sort. As the Ceann Comhairle has indicated, the question of policy is involved. It is not true to say that medical qualifications do not count. They do. The person with the highest medical qualifications, if he has another qualification which is essential in dealing with the Gaeltacht——
It did not happen in this case.
It did happen in that case. The person with the highest medical qualifications who had, at the same time, a competent knowledge of Irish was appointed. Young people to-day, if they want to go up for public positions in this country have every opportunity given to them to get a decent knowledge of Irish. If there are young people going in for public positions at this hour of the day they ought to be able to have such a knowledge of Irish as would enable them to get these positions.
Is the Taoiseach aware that candidates up for this position who had extremely high qualifications in medicine and surgery had passed their matriculation in Irish? Would the Taoiseach consider that a competent knowledge of Irish?
I would not consider that a competent knowledge of Irish. A competent knowledge of Irish for dealing with the Gaeltacht must be interpreted as a knowledge which would enable them to deal with patients in the Irish language.
Is there any objection to giving the marks allotted in the case of each candidate?
I think it would be a very bad practice to begin.