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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Apr 1942

Vol. 86 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Agriculture.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £444,768 chun slánuithe na suime is gáchun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1943, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Talmhaidheachta agus seirbhísí áirithe atá, fé riaradh na hOifige sin, ar a-n éirmhítear Ildeontaisí-i-gCabhair.

That a sum, not exceeding £444,768 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1943, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The Estimate for the current year shows a net decrease of £451,677 compared with 1941-42. This decrease is accounted for principally by three items, namely, sub-heads B, G (3) and N (1). Sub-heads B and N (1) are concerned with the Diseases of Animals Acts. The foot-and-mouth outbreak last year cost something like £480,000.

There is only a token estimate in for that purpose this year, in the hope that we may not again be up against the same situation. The third item that accounts for the decrease is that there is no subsidy this year for artificial manures, and there is, therefore, a saving under sub-head G (3) of £52,875. I think these are the only remarks I have to make at the moment about the sub-heads as far as any decreases or increases are concerned.

The big task that is before us in the Department of Agriculture this year is to see that, on account of the scarcity of imports, we shall have more and more home-grown food of a certain variety, principally in the form of grain. We must, if at all possible, become self-sufficient in this coming harvest in wheat production. That has been our aim over the last two or three years. Deputies know that last year the Statistics Department reported that we had 463,000 acres of wheat. That was an increase from 305,000 acres in the previous year. We must, if at all possible, go further than that in this coming year. In order to encourage the production of wheat, a price of 50/- a barrel has been guaranteed. According to all the reports, the position looked, I must say, very promising up to about a fortnight ago, when the bad weather set in. Even so, if we get fine weather, I think a considerable area may still be put under wheat this year. We had a good supply of seed wheat of winter varieties, in fact more than we required. Many farmers made provision for their own seed requirements or obtained them by exchanging seed with other farmers. In addition, our own seed merchants assembled large stocks of winter wheat for sale. They also imported a substantial quantity of winter seed wheat. At the end of the winter season we had a good lot of wheat, which was meant for seed, left over.

The position as regards supplies of seed wheat of the spring varieties is also satisfactory. In August last the Irish Seed and Nursery Trades Association agreed to a scheme for assembling 100,000 barrels of seed wheat of spring varieties so as to ensure that there would be an ample supply. There was an agreement made with that association that if a portion of this wheat was left over they would be paid 50/- a barrel for it, but the agreement would hold only if less than a quarter of the amount assembled by them was left over. That condition may involve a commitment of about £5,000. That is true of every barrel of wheat for which we are liable between the 50/- which is payable to them, and the amount which we would get from the millers of 41/- per barrel. There was only a very limited quantity of imported spring seed. The demand for it was not very great, I think. At any rate, very little came in. Orders were made fixing the price of seed wheat. It is not necessary to go into them now because the season is practically over except perhaps to mention that the price of spring seed is 62/6 per barrel.

With regard to barley and oats, under sub-head O. 11., there is a sum of £2,000 provided to cover the expenses of the Cereals Distribution Committee from the period 1st April to the 31st August, 1942. This committee was established last August for the purpose of advising me on matters relating to the assembly and distribution of oats of the 1941 harvest, and to act as my agent in giving directions for the disposal of barley and oats purchased by licensed dealers. Although the acreage under barley and oats was higher in 1941 than in 1940, in the case of barley up to 28 per cent. and of oats up to 14 per cent., still the proportion of the crop marketed was very low. This may be accounted for by the fact that no maize was coming in, and that farmers had to keep a good deal more of their crop for feeding. They also, possibly in many cases, kept more for seed.

The quantity of oats marketed is creating a difficulty in providing a sufficient supply of oatmeal. There is a good demand for oatmeal because of the restricted flour supply. The supply of barley seed in the hands of maltsters will be sufficient to meet the demand. It was found necessary, early in January, to suspend the malting of barley for brewing and distilling in order to provide a reserve of barley for use in bread.

Malting for beer has now been resumed on account of the improvement in the position as regards imported wheat, but the supplies of barley and oats on hands do not warrant any hope that it will be possible in the near future to release either cereal for use in the feeding of animals. The position as to these cereals has been injuriously affected by transactions in the black market. Efforts have been made to restrict black market operations by prosecutions and the impounding of stocks of grain which were acquired in contravention of the law.

The position, at any rate, as regards seed wheat, seed potatoes and seed barley is, on the whole, satisfactory, but as regards root crops it is not so good. The great bulk of our mangels, turnip and swede seeds were imported ordinarily from Great Britain. It is feared the British authorities will not be able to export any quantity of these seeds this present year. About this time last year or a little earlier it was anticipated that the seed would be very scarce just now and farmers wers advised as far as possible to grow a certain small quantity of barley and turnip seed for their own use. Certain instructions were issued as to how this could be done. A good number of farmers availed of that advice and have their own mangel and turnip seeds. Certain of our seeds merchants also arranged with farmers to grow some mangel seed and turnip seed for them. Even so, I am afraid that there will not be sufficient for our full requirements. Farmers have been advised to be as economical as possible in the amount of seed they use. The prospect, I think, for turnip and swede seeds is better than that for mangel seeds. We may, I think, succeed in having a fair supply of seeds for turnips and swedes but I think it is fairly certain that we will not have enough mangel seed and, in view of this, arrangements have been made with the Irish Sugar Company to release large quantities of beet seed which, if sown where mangel seed cannot be got, will yield a suitable crop for stock-feeding. The price of these beet seeds haa also been fixed at a very reasonable level.

There is no change since the subject was discussed here before in the artificial manure position. There will be one grade of compound fertiliser issued this year. It will be put on the market in the form of a single compound known as emergency compound fertiliser and supplies will be very limited. The guaranteed analysis of this fertiliser is as follows:—20 per cent. soluble phosphate, 2 per cent. citric soluble phosphate, 2 per cent. insoluble phosphate, with 1 per cent. nitrogen and 1 per cent. potash. In order to provide as far as possible for an equitable distribution of even this small quantity, an Order was made regulating how this manure would be distributed. Under the Order a retail distributor is authorised to supply to an established customer, that is, a customer who bought artificial manures from him last year, a quantity of this fertiliser not in excess of 25 per cent. of what he purchased last year and he cannot take on a new customer without a permit from me. The reason, of course, for this limitation is obvious because there is not available more than about one-fourth of what was available last year. An Order has been made at the same time by the Department of Supplies with effect as from the 22nd February, fixing the minimum retail price of this compound at £10 per ton plus cost of transport from manufacturer's premises to the railway or canal station nearest the premises of the vendor. Farmers have been advised to increase by all possible means the supplies of farmyard manure by a more liberal use of surplus straw, etc., and also, as far as they can, to make use of the liquid manure. Along the seaboard greater use will be made of seaweed.

A lime scheme subsidised by the State and the county committees of agriculture is to be put in operation throughout the country and farmers are urged to take full advantage of this scheme as, in the present circumstances, whilst we cannot claim that lime is a substitute for artificial manures, we do know that it may make certain feeding matter in the soil available for plant feeding where it otherwise would not be available. The amount it is expected will be spent on this scheme is £71,000.

The Compulsory Tillage Order, known as No. 124, requires occupiers of agricultural laud to cultivate 25 per cent. of their arable land and gives me the necessary powers to enter on land that is not tilled under the Order. Up to the ]3th April, 98 holdings were entered on and arrangements have been made for the cultivation of this land either by means of conacre lettings or by the Department's officers directly.

We have had many difficulties to face owing to the shortage of supplies. One of them is the question of timber. As many Deputies have been agitating about this matter I would like to say a few words on it. A permit is required from the Minister for Supplies for timber of any quantity exceeding in value £5 per month and discussions have been taking place between the Department of Supplies and my Department. Any applications for timber for agricultural purposes usually come to my Department for advice. We have been trying so far to provide the timber necessary. The varieties that are available are principally spruce and beech, beech being more plentiful, as it happens, than spruce because beech is not used for many of the purposes for which spruce could be used. We have consequently been trying to use beech for butter boxes and where the beech is very well seasoned it has been good on the whole but, if not thoroughly seasoned, has given rise to moulds. We have used less valuable timber for the making of egg cases and also boxes for the export of such things as meat, fish, rabbits, poultry and so on. We have tried to get these cases and boxes returned. We have not succeeded in getting returned the butter boxes that were sent out under butter last year. We did succeed, however, in getting a good number of the egg cases returned —not all—but they have been coming back. We have not tried to get the boxes which go out under fish, meat and so on because we feel they could not be used again. They would be badly stained and, being made of rather poor material, could hardly be used a second time.

Another supply question is binder twine. We hope, when the harvest time arrives, to have a fair supply, probably enough if used carefully by the farmers concerned and not asked for except by those who want to use it. We have hopes of getting in a certain amount of raw material for the making of binder twine between this and the next harvest and in that way to make up a certain deficiency. Arrangements are being made to try native raw material so far as possible next year and experiments have been carried on with green flax and other materials. I think it will be possible at least to provide some of the binder twine necessary from home-grown materials of that kind.

With regard to machinery, threshing mills, agricultural tractors, and tractor ploughs, which were all imported freely and in increasing numbers up to 1940, are becoming somewhat short. They are almost impossible to secure now. But, luckily, there are reasonable supplies of spare parts either in stock or on order, and the latter, I think, will arrive. It is most important for owners of threshing mills, binders, and such machines, to look after the machines as soon as possible so as to order the necessary spare parts, and not leave the repairs or the putting into order of those machines until the last moment. The output of horse-drawn farm machinery, as well as the supply of spare parts by home manufacturers, is, considering the difficulties encountered, being maintained at a reasonable level. The curtailment of imports of essential raw material is, however, affecting production, and this, it is feared, will become worse as time goes on. In view of the kerosene and petrol position, farmers should, so far as possible, keep their horse-drawn machinery in order, and have it available if the fuel position should become worse.

With regard to the fuel position, the Department keeps in constant contact with the Department of Supplies, and I must say that, so far as paraffin for tractors is concerned, we have not nearly as many complaints this year as we had last year. If we are to judge this matter by the number of complaints that come in, the scheme of issuing permits for paraffin would appear to be running very much more smoothly this year than last year. Owners of agricultural tractors are granted allowances on the basis of the work to be done, and are required to furnish in their application forms particulars of the work. In the case of poultry breeders, who require kerosene for incubating equipment, a rather satisfactory arrangement was made with the Department of Supplies; I mean satisfactory considering the amount of paraffin available. Monthly permits have been issued since November, 1941, to poultry station-holders under the poultry stations scheme, and similar permits have been issued to poultry farmers and institutions since January. In December, 1941, allocations were made to holders of Putnam lamps in connection with the poultry stations scheme, and permits to ordinary owners of incubators were issued in January, as I have mentioned.

A fairly large number of complaints has been received during the last few months from poultry breeders who were not granted any allowances of kerosene, or who stated that the allowances granted to them were inadequate. These complaints were taken up with the Department of Supplies as they occurred. The difficulty in many cases appeared to arise from the fact that the poultry breeders concerned failed to apply under the Emergency Powers (Kerosene Rationing) Order, 1941, for registration as industrial users of kerosene before the closing date—31st May, 1941. However, as the cases came under our notice, we got them rectified in most cases by sending them on to the Department of Supplies. It would be as well for such people to register in time for the coming year. Kerosene was also supplied to egg dealers for egg testing.

Representations were also made by my Department to the Departinent of Supplies with a view to granting a special allowance of kerosene to farmers for lighting purposes during the winter months, but the Department of Supplies intimated that it was not practicable to grant such allowances except in the case of registered dairy farmers. Allowances of petrol and kerosene for stationary engines used on farms are being granted to registered users and we have not received very many complaints from such users. Some complaints have been received from lorry owners that the allowances of petrol granted to them for the haulage of lime and culm for lime burning are inadequate. From inquiries made to the Department of Supplies we find that most of these lorry owners are receiving a supplementary allowance of petrol equivalent to the basic allowance—that is usually 40 gallons basic and 40 gallons supplementary—and we understand from the Department of Supplies that that is the maximum amount that is given to any lorry owner.

Representations were made to the Department of Supplies also on behalf of limekiln owners who require culm for burning lime for agricultural purposes. That Department intimated that, in the case of kiln-owners situate outside the scheduled turf area, that is in the coal areas, permits for the purchase of culm were granted, and in the case of limekiln owners in the turf areas, where it was proved to the satisfaction of the Minister for Supplies that turf could not be used, permits were also issued. In some cases the owners used a certain amount of turf and a certain amount of culm as a mixture.

The next matter about which I want to say a few words is butter. The production of creamery butter for the year ending 31st March was 658,000 cwts., which is practically the same as for the year ended 31st March, 1911. It was practically the same last year as the year before; I think there was only a difference of about 3,000 cwts. This was disappointing because in the summer and autumn of 1940 there waa a long period of drought and a decline in milk production was only to be expected on account of that. Last year we had no such period of drought and one would expect the production of milk to be higher, but it did not prove to be higher as a matter of fact. There was practically no reduction—there was some slight reduction, of course— owing to foot-and-mouth disease, because the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease did not affect the main creamery districts.

The quantity of butter stored last winter was 160,000 cwts. which is almost twice as high as ever was stored before, and indeed was as much as we had cold-storage capacity for. As from August lust, imported fats ceased to be available and this naturally resulted in a substantial increase in the home consumption of creamery butter, which for the year amounted to the very high figure of £544,000 cwts. Home consumption could have absorbed another 20,000 cwts. if we had it. But, as I said already, we could not store more, because we had not the capacity. We are, however, making provision for a greater cold storage capacity next winter and we hope to store more butter than we did this year. The value of butter was maintained throughout the 12 months at the figure of 158/- per cwt. This was effected by a retail price of 1/7 per lb. which meant to the creameries 152/- per cwt. They were paid in addition to that a production allowance of 6/- per cwt. and this enabled the creameries in turn to pay about 6d. per gallon for milk.

Does the Minister consider that an adequate price?

I am not expressing any view on that at the moment. Having regard to the fact that probably no imported fats will be available this year, home consumption will probably show a substantial increase, with probably a corresponding diminution in the export of butter. In fact it may happen that we shall have no butter at all for export. We do hope, however, at least to provide enough for home consumption during the summer and autumn period and also a sufficient quantity to store for our winter requirements.

As regards pigs, the number of pigs bought for curing in bacon factories in 1941 was 827,000. That compares with 1,100,000 in 1940. Towards the end of the summer of 1941, when the decline in pig stocks had become evident, steps were taken to conserve supplies and to build up reserve stocks of bacon and pig products for home consumption. There was another difficulty in finding sufficient storage for that bacon, but luckily the stocks were being built up as butter stocks were being taken out. No bacon has been exported since the 30th September, 1941. At the same time, the export of live pigs was stopped and every pig produced since then has been kept within the country. For the last four or five weeks, we have reached a stage where we are beginning to draw on these stocks. In other words, the number of pigs coming into the bacon factories now are not sufficient to meet home consumption.

That is not because of the drop in price?

The drop in price may have induced people to eat more bacon but that is not the only reason. At that time also, the Government made an Emergency Powers Order reintroducing a system of production periods and quotas on a carcase basis so as to ensure an equitable distribution of supplies of pigs amongst the various bacon factories. The old provisions relating to bacon production periods and quotas had been suspended from the 1st March, 1940. The decline in pig stocks has continued, due mainly to the shortage of feeding stuffs. At the end of 1941, there was a marked increase in the dead weights of pigs sold to bacon factories, the weights being much in excess of those suited to the requirements of the trade. Furthermore, the absorption of the limited supplies of feeding stuffs available for feeding pigs to such weights was considered most undesirable. In determining a proper price to be paid for pigs, consideration was given to theae matters and lower prices were fixed at the beginning of 1912. Subsequently it was found that a proportion of excessively heavy pigs continued to be marketed and that, in addition, wheat was being fed to pigs. The situation called for further measures to correct the conditions reffered to and, accordingly, pig prices were further reduced in the middle of February.

Can the Minister say how that was discovered?

It was found in their stomachs.

Can the Minister say whether it is proposed to close any of the bacon factories in the country?

The Government has no intention of doing so.

Has the Minister any power to prevent some of the factories closing? I understand that there is a situation arising under which the closing of some of the smaller bacon factories is contemplated.

That will be of their own volition.

The factories need not close?

Has the Minister any evidence that there was any extensive use of wheat for pig-feeding?

It was fairly extensively used in one place. In one week, wheat was found in the stomachs of certain pigs in 16 factories out of 33. That was a fairly big proportion. I should close my remarks on this matter by saying that there is no indication of any increase in pig production up to the moment. All I can say is that it would appear, on the figures we are getting now, that production is not going to become any worse. That would mean that there may not be any improvement as regards the numbers produced for the next 12 months, except for a very slight seasonal increase in the harvest.

With regard to eggs, despite the difficulties arising from the emergency situation, the egg industry had on the whole a good year. The improvement in the quality and cleanliness of our eggs resulting from the operation of the Agricultural Produce (Eggs) Act was maintained during the year. The code-marking of eggs, to indicate the period during which they were tested and found to be fresh, enabled consumers on the home market to purchase supplies with confidence. I think that in that way the Act passed in 1939 had a very good effect. The arrangement by which the export of eggs was entrusted to a central selling organisation—Messrs. Eggsports, Ltd.—worked well during the year, not only from the point of view of our shippers, but also from that of the distributing association in Great Britain. Adverse reports from cross-Channel centres were relatively few, and the majority of these related to the use of defective packing materials with resulting injury to the eggs. We have had scarcely any complaints with regard to stale eggs or bad eggs. There was some increase in exports at the beginning of this year, during January and February, but that increase was converted into a decrease in March, so that taking 1942 to date, there has not been much change in the situation. The egg industry has to contend with various difficulties. The scarcity of feeding stuffs, as in the case of pigs, is the first difficulty. Then there is also difficulty experienced in securing packing materials, including egg boxes. There is a further difficulty in collecting eggs in remote districts, where lorries were largely used, owing to the petrol shortage. Every effort is being made to overcome these difficulties, and arrangements have been made with the British Ministry of Food for the return of the maximum number of packages despatched from this country. In this way, we hope to conserve supplies of timber available for such purposes in the country. The prices which our eggs are fetching on the home and export markets are such as to enable a reasonably remunerative price to be paid to producers and every effort is being made to ensure that producers receive a fair price having regard to all the circumstances. On the whole, I think the outlook for the egg trade is not unsatisfactory although the difficulties which I have mentioned may be at least as bad, if not worse, in the immediate years ahead.

The year was a good one for the poultry trade. Exports rose in quantity and in value. Exports of live poultry were stopped towards the end of the year under an Order which came into operation on the 17th November, 1941. On the same date the Emergency Powers (Export of Dead Poultry and Rabbits) Order, 1941, came into operation. The effect of this Order was to restrict the export of dead poultry and rabbits to traders who were granted licences for the purpose. These licences were granted to traders who had the necessary premises and other facilities for carrying on the exports under proper conditions. All exporters had to export through the central agency—Messrs. Eggsports Ltd. Eggs, poultry and rabbits are all going through that agency now. The quality of our poultry and rabbits has, I think shown very considerable improvement. Owing to the difficulty of ensuring that our rabbits may be exported in good condition during the summer, it is contemplated making an Order to prohibit export of rabbits during certain months of the summer. Rabbits very quickly deteriorate, and do not travel well in warm weather. In fact there were very considerable losses on them last year, so I intend to make the Order to which I have referred. My present intention is that the period covered by the Order should be from 1st May to the end of August. Normally, the exports of rabbits during that period are very low. As a matter of fact, during those four months the Order will not hurt anybody very much. I think I am right in saying that the total exports during those four months last year were not as high as those for one month in the high exporting period.

Is the Minister aware that exports of rabbits have been stopped for the last three weeks?

There is no harm in saying that the Deputy sent me notice about that, but I have not had an opportunity of inquiring into it yet. I do mean to inquire into it. They have certainly not been stopped through any order or advice ot the Department. There is only one other thing to which I have to refer, and that is the matter of allotments. It is estimated that there will be about 26,400 allotments this year, as compared with 21,595 in 1941. Plot-holders, like everybody else, will have their difficulties this year through the shortage of artificial manures, but in spite of that we hope they will get good returns, and their combined efforts will add a very valuable contribution to the drive for more food.

Would the Minister say what are the possibilities of getting phosphates from the Clare deposits?

We have been urging the Department of Industry and Commerce to do everything possible to develop the Clare phosphates, and they in turn are doing everything they can. I am not sure what the output from the Clare phosphates may be now, but it has been increasing. I do not think we can ever hope to get any considerable quantity of phosphates from the Glare deposits, compared with the amount we want in the country. It is not very high grade phosphate, and is rather insoluble, but still it would be well to have it.

Would the Minister say if he has any experience or information with regard to cement dust? Can he say if any experiments were carried out last year or the year before?

I cannot say if experiments have been carried out, but we have the analysis.

I should like to know if any experiments were carried out.

I cannot say that offhand.

Is the output from the Clare deposits dealt with only in the Dublin factory?

Some of it is dealt with in Galway.

I move: That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I do so on the grounds that neither in the statement we have heard from the Minister nor in that portion of the Book of Estimates dealing with this particular Estimate is there any evidence of a clear and comprehensive policy for agriculture such as the situation in this country to-day demands. I could not help feeling, during the time I listened to the portion of the Minister's speech which I heard, that it is a pity that the Minister shares with his colleagues in the Cabinet that universal pessimism which seems to predominate in Ministerial speeches at the present time, and, indeed, for a considerable time past. The gloom of the world situation is sufficiently bad without having added to it continuously the kind of dreary speeches that we have been hearing. I think the people would be just as grateful, perhaps more grateful, if the tone of Ministerial utterances were not so universally gloomy as it has been for a considerable time, and I say that without desiring in any way to ignore the seriousness of the position which faces this country at the present time. What the people regret most is that there is no evidence of a policy to deal with that situation, and I think that is particularly true of the Estimate now under consideration.

The sum required is £666,768, and this has shown a decrease of a considerable amount which is made up of a saving as a result of the elimination of the cattle diseases that were rampant last year. I am neither competent nor anxious to discuss the cattle plague that occurred here last year, except to the extent of saying that I gathered both in this House and outside of it that there was a great deal of dissatisfaction with Ministerial policy in regard to the matter. That is a subject which will be dealt with by other people more competent to speak on the question than I am, so there I leave it. I do want to emphasise what I think has been obvious in this country in the last five or six mouths, and that is how regrettable it is that there should be a policy of hesitancy and indecision with regard to Ministerial actions on many important public matters. I think the hesitancy and indecision of which we had evidence in regard to fixing the price of wheat is a very serious matter indeed for this country. I believe that if the steps which were belatedly taken in regard to fixing a price for wheat had been taken courageously and definitely at a much earlier time, many of the questions which will probably appear on the Order Paper from time to time, questions such as we heard to-day, would not have to be asked or to be answered, and there would not be any need for the panicky last-minute appeals with regard to the sowing of wheat that had to be made recently. If the price had been fixed at the proper time, a much better situation would exist now, and I think the Minister is blameworthy in that particular matter to a very considerable extent. I must say that I did not notice in the Minister's statement here this evening any evidence of that kind of policy one would expect to hear enunciated on a serious occasion of this kind with regard to the future organisation of agriculture here. The country is crying out for some announcement of a policy of that kind at the present time.

The Minister cannot be unaware of the fact that rural depopulation is proceeding at a very alarming rate. It is probably no exaggeration to say that the people left the rural districts last year and are leaving them at the present time at a rate that has had no parallel since the famine days. That circumstance should certainly compel the Minister and his colleagues in the Government, and this House generally, to think seriously on the whole question of the causes of that mass emigration, and its relation to the present position of our main industry. Amongst the very large number of people who have left this country in recent months has been a very large number of farmers' sons, and particularly smaller farmers' sons, from the southern counties who are a very serious loss to the country. With them have gone some of the best young men, the agricultural worker type of person, whose services will so very much be needed in the near future. I do not want to envisage what the situation will be when all the thousands who have left will have no alternative at the end of the war employment which will engage their attention for some time yet but to return to this country, and surely if we have not yet got any policy for dealing with such a situation, or for dealing with the situation that will exist before that time, we ought at least to have some evidence now that preparations are being made for the consideration of that question in the very near future, and almost immediately.

This exodus from the countryside is a very serious matter and I do not think it can be brushed aside by merely saying that people are leaving for the sake of change, for variety of employment, or for securing more congenial employment, or even better wages, elsewhere. I believe it is true of the very large number of people who have left, and particularly true of people who have left all they had, in the world in the way of families and family associations behind them, that they would not have taken that step without very serious reasons for doing so, and there is no use in disguising the fact that, for the majority, leaving the country was the only alternative to the poverty and the difficulties of life that they had to endure up to the time they left. Yet they were the best people in the country. If the school rolls show fewer children to-day and if the whole evidence of that decay which rural depopulation causes is growing, it is because people of that type have left the country. I see no hope of an increase in the number of school-going children, or an increase in the population of the countryside in the future, unless, through the operations of the Minister's Department particularly, with some assistance from his colleagues, a policy is devised for keeping such people at home.

Agricultural labourers have gone out of the country in order to get a better wage in England. I am not one of those who believe that you can make the agricultural worker completely prosperous without having regard for the person who is his employer, the farmer. I have very often seen the difficulties of many of our farmers in the constituency I speak for. These people have not been free from one end of the year to the other from difficulties of their own, and I have not to be convinced, because I was convinced very many years ago, that in order to make the condition of our agricultural labourers safe, the industry generally must be helped and the men who employ agricultural workers must be put in a position in which they can afford to do it. I believe there would be very little difficulty about wages if the agricultural industry were put in a much better position than that in which it is now and nobody who knows conditions in the country at present can say there is not a great deal to be done in that direction.

I should like to make some inquiries about the immediate future in relation to fertilisers. There is only a very small amount, a token amount, set out in the Estimate and I should like to emphasise what has already been very well emphasised by one of my colleagues from West Cork, Deputy O'Donovan, that is, the need for doing something to find alternatives in view of the present shortage of fertilisers.

I live in a constituency where much better use might be made of the resources which nature has placed at the disposal of the people in the way of sea sand and seaweed, and there should also be a more extensive use of that fertiliser, lime, which can be found in generous quantities in certain parts of County Cork. I should like to see the Government giving evidence of a wider appreciation of the urgent need for taking steps to put at the disposal of the people facilities for the use of fertilisers of that type to a very much greater extent than is the case at present.

Lime is not a fertiliser.

It is certainly a treatment for poor soil which makes it a great deal healthier.

That may be, but it is not a fertiliser.

Perhaps I used the word in the more general sense, but I associated it with improvement of the land, and I stand corrected by Deputy Hughes who is in a better position than I am to know the facts. I still have some recollections of my own early days when I saw farmers using lime very extensively, and it seems to me to be regrettable that that is not the case to-day. I feel that much more could and should be done in that direction, and I believe that failure to use lime has not been caused by any reluctance on the part of the farmer to use it, but because of certain other difficulties which may have cropped up in the meantime.

I should like to know whether the Minister seriously believes that the agricultural industry can be substantially improved, or whether he has completely recanted views which were freely expressed in this House by himself and his colleagues in the days when they were much more optimistic about everything than they are to-day, because the Minister made a series of rather astonishing statements in the course of a lecture in Cork some time ago. The Minister on that occasion made a statement which seemed to imply that he had completely lost his faith in what was called the "back to the land" movement. He seemed to regard that as being in the nature of a mirage and to suggest that there was no further room for the settlement of people on the land. That is entirely in conflict with the views formerly expressed. I do not want to make any capital out of it, except to say that it seems to be an entirely wrong conception of things and that if the Minister has reached the point at which that is his considered view, there is not much hope for agriculture at his hands in the future.

I listened to the Minister's references to the pig industry and it seems to me that that industry is ruined. I do not think it is enough to say that the shortage of feeding stuffs and supplies has brought that about. Farmers and labourers in West Cork depended to a great extent on this industry, because even people in labourers' cottages were actively interested in the keeping of pigs—a limited number, perhaps, but still enough to be useful in assisting them.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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