asked the Minister for Finance if he is aware that in many areas grave dissatisfaction exists amongst turf workers because of the rates of pay offered for the cutting and saving of turf this year, and whether in order to prevent a hold up in the production of an early crop of turf he is prepared, in consultation with the county surveyors and representatives of the county councils and of the turf workers, to review the whole position at once so as to secure an equitable arrangement satisfactory to all parties.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Wages of Turf-cutters.
All matters relevant to the production of turf are continuously under review. The experience of all concerned is fully taken into account.
asked the Minister for Finance whether he has fixed for turf cutters employed by county surveyors either standard rates or maximum rates of pay in respect of turf-cutting operations during the 1942 campaign; and, if so, whether he will state what these rates are, or, alternatively, if no such rates have been fixed whether he will say if any indication has been given either orally or in writing to county surveyors as to the rates of wages or the maximum wages payable by them in respect of turf-cutting operations during the 1942 campaign; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of such communications; further, if no indication as to rates of pay has been given to the county surveyors, whether he will state if in fact county surveyors are free to negotiate with turf cutters in regard to wages and conditions of employment without regard to an overriding maximum and without obligation to obtain Government approval of agreements reached between the parties to such negotiations.
The answer to the first part of the question is no; to the second, that no special instructions have yet been issued for 1942; such instructions, if necessary, will be issued as soon as possible.
asked the Minister for Finance whether he will take steps to ensure that in order to avoid broken time during the turf-cutting season proper shelters will be erected on the bogs for the use of turf workers.
This is a matter for the county surveyor or other person supervising production, to whom representations should be made in particular cases. Conditions vary so much that it is impossible to make a general rule.
asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he will state whether rates of pay and conditions of employment negotiated between county surveyors and turf workers in respect of the 1942 turf-cutting campaign are subject to sanction by his Department.
Rates of pay and any wage conditions of employment of turf workers employed by county surveyors are subject to approval or regulation by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary intimate whether county surveyors have authority on their own, subject to sanction either by his Department or the Department of Local Government, to employ turf workers at specified rates of wages? Will he also say whether he is unaware of the fact that there is considerable discontent amongst turf workers and amongst county council employees in regard to the rates of wages which are being offered for the cutting of turf, and will he take steps to call a conference of representatives of the workers concerned with a view to fixing (1) a rate of wages which will be an adequate recompense for the labour of the workers concerned; and (2) a rate of wages which, at the same time, will ensure maximum activity in the production of turf which is so vitally needed by the nation.
The general question of turf wages is a very difficult one, and there is no simple, or as far as I know no logical solution which can be applied all over the country in the way that the Deputy possibly has in mind. There are two national necessities at the present moment competing for labour on the same ground: that is the production of food and the production of turf, or native fuel, and, in the production of turf, we have to keep continuously in mind the relation to the production of food. Last year the position was that there was an agricultural wage of 30/-. There was a series of accepted rates throughout the county councils for various types of road and other workers. When we started to cut turf, there were superimposed upon those a series of different wage rates founded on custom or negotiation through the county surveyors and those who were working which, on the whole, worked fairly well. This year, when there is much keener demand for both turf and food, and, therefore, a more intense position in the negotiations, we start with a position in which there is a new agricultural wage level of 33/-. If the turf wage is set at a higher level than the agricultural wage, then there is going to be competition between the two, to the detriment of agriculture.
Normally speaking, the hours of work at the turf rates are somewhere about 48 hours. The standard of time in agriculture is 54. If the agricultural wage of 33/- is given for turf production for 48 hours, then on the basis of 54 hours it will be equivalent to 37/- for turf as against 33/- for food. That is the problem: at what level are you going to put the turf wages having regard to the fact that agricultural wages have been fixed at a certain level? The wage which is paid in agriculture of 33/- is only paid for a competent workman of full age. At a year less than 20, or up to 20, it is 27/-; at less than that it goes down in proportion to the age. In the case of turf production, all those who are working are paid the same rate independent of their age. I am putting that to the House to show the nature of the problem we have got to face.
Hear, hear!
Yes, and the difficulty of finding any simple solution. Last year negotiations took place on the basis of old custom and, to some extent, on the basis of the county councils' level of wages. What will happen this year will, I hope, be along very much the same lines. I do not want to say definitely the standard at the moment, because I think that by going a bit slowly now will probably produce the best solution. I do not think that calling such a conference as the Deputy has in mind would in fact produce the best result, having regard to the balance of the necessity for turf and food. The longest way round in this case may be the shortest way home. All I have to say to the House is that the matter is continuously under careful review, in the hope that a balance in all counties will be obtained which will be to the public interest as represented by those two necessities.
I wonder would the Parliamentary Secretary, during this period of famine fuel, come down from the celestial heights and realise that there will be no turf cut this year unless workers are paid a reasonable rate of wages for cutting the turf. That is the plain fact which the Parliamentary Secretary ought to realise by now. Will he say who is going to fix the rate of wages for the production of turf and whether county surveyors will be permitted to pay workers for the production of turf at a rate based upon the human needs of the workers in the first place and, secondly, on the necessity for producing turf? The Parliamentary Secretary's Department appears to stand in the way of a settlement of this whole matter which will ensure reasonable wages and, at the same time, maximum production of turf.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in certain areas where turf workers were paid at the rate of 35/- last year they have been recently offered work at the rate of 30/- per week, and will he say whether such a position has been created as a result of his instructions? Is he aware —I am certain he is, as well as every other Deputy—that thousands of able-bodied men, suitable for agricultural work and for turf cutting, are leaving this country with permits given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, simply because they are getting three times the wages in another country which they are being offered for the production of food and fuel here?
I am aware that emigration of a considerable character is taking place for the purpose of obtaining three times the amount of wages which in certain cases can be obtained here. I am not prepared to recommend to the House that the wages on turf shall be trebled, nor do I think that it is in the public interest or in the interest of the people themselves. I think I have made as long a statement on the matter as is legitimate and I propose to reserve anything else I have to say until this is discussed on the Estimates.
With great respect, may I press the Parliamentary Secretary to say whether the wages of certain turf workers have been reduced this year compared with last year as a result of his instructions?
To the best of my knowledge and belief, no, but if the Deputy will refer me to the particular case I will go into it and will tell him.
Yes.