Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 May 1942

Vol. 86 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Emergency Powers (Mechanically-propelled Vehicles) Order, 1942—Motion to Revoke.

Dr. O'Higgins

I beg to move the motion standing in the names of Deputy Mulcahy and myself:

"That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that Emergency Powers (Mechanically-propelled Vehicles) Order, 1942, made by the Minister for Supplies on the 24th April, 1942, should be revoked."

I should like to say, at the start, that I rather regret the position in which a Deputy is put by reason of the fact that he has no possible way, through the medium of Parliament, of making representations with regard to alterations in an Order, or making suggestions with regard to the carrying out of an Order, in a more reasonable manner than that of putting down a motion that the whole Order be revoked. That is the outstanding drawback of the present tendency to do things by taking the easiest road, namely, through the medium of regulations rather than of legislation. Powers were given to the Government, in the first 24 hours of the world war, to do business through the medium of emergency regulations.

The Parliament at that time felt itself faced with the danger of immediately terrible war and gave those powers to the Government to be used with reason for and in a grave emergency. They have since been used or, rather, freely abused so as to replace practically in toto the kind of business that should be done through the medium of legislation that would give the representatives of the people an opportunity of making suggestions, Parliament an opportunity to point out to Ministers where the legislation appeared to be unduly harsh and Ministers the opportunity of considering those suggestions. Here, however, we find ourselves in the position that an Emergency Order comes out from goodness knows where and devised by whom I do not know. The only way one can get consideration given to any of the ramifications of that Order is by putting down a motion to revoke the whole Order. That is unwise and discourteous.

We are left to presume, through reading the newspapers, that the reason for the Order is shortage of petrol. I do not know whether that is the case for the Order or not. In fact, I do not know what the case for the Order is, but semi-official pronouncements appearing in the newspapers indicate that the justification and reason for it is that there is very little petrol in the country and very little coming in. Any information that I can get indicates that more petrol came in during the first three months of this year than in the first three months of last year, that whatever arrangements existed last year between the petrol companies of this country and the British Petroleum Board were re-enacted for this year, and that the risks of petrol supplies being interrupted were equally as grave last year as this year. On the assumption that that information was correct, I consider that the general public here got very little consideration, and that at least an opportunity should have been given to the representatives of the people to make representations on their behalf before they were branded as criminals for using a vehicle on the road for which they had a licence from another Government Department. It may be that some other case will be made to justify this Order than a shortage of petrol. The country and the owners of cars will be interested to hear that case, and the sooner it is made the better.

On the assumption that the reason for this Order is shortage of petrol, then I could not visualise an Order being carried out in a more asinine manner than this particular Order has been. Assuming that the Order is framed in order to economise petrol, and because there is a serious danger of a petrol shortage, then every encouragement should be given to every user of the road to economise petrol. Road users should be applauded for making use of any and every device that would make petrol go further, and help thereby to economise the supply. If there was anyone in this country who could design and patent a gadget to attach to the carburetter of his car so that the petrol in it would do 100 miles to the gallon instead of 30 miles, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Supplies and every other member of the Government would applaud him as an individual who had done his bit towards bringing this country through a great emergency by extending the scope of the available petrol supply. Now, without providing any extraordinary gadget the man authorised to use a motor car, a member of the essential services, who is prepared to put up with the hardship of using a light motor bicycle instead of a luxurious car is making every gallon of petrol do 100 miles instead of 30, but any member of the essential services attempting to do that since this Order came out is regarded as a criminal. He will not be allowed to economise petrol even by inflicting hardship on himself.

It was suggested to the Minister and to his advisers before the Order came out that provided a person classed as a member of the essential services had a motor car registered in his name, that he kept it registered and insured and, in addition, registered a motor bicycle, he should be authorised to use the motor bicycle in fine weather in order to make the petrol go further. The first answer to that was: "Well, one person could use the car and the other could use the motor bicycle." That was a perfectly reasonable answer. It was suggested, however, that that could not take place if the registered owner was given a single transferable disc that he would use on the car to-day, if it was a wet day, and on the motor bicycle to-morrow if it was a fine day, and that, seeing there was only one disc, there could be no abuse and no loophole. Finally, the only reason for refusing that demand was that it placed one person in a position of advantage over another.

I would venture to say that is not the function of the Minister for Supplies. His function is to safeguard, and equitably distribute, whatever supplies of petrol are available. In the newspapers—we have to go to them for our information—I have seen the members of essential services classed as doctors, midwives, veterinary surgeons and clergymen. It may be news for the Minister—but I can tell him it is so—to learn that there is not that cut-throat competition for business between the members of any of those professions. The mind of the huxter would be the mentality behind the suggestion that, because one man had a car and a motor bicycle and was allowed to use one or the other, he could sometimes best his neighbour.

The only reason why anybody would do it is that the allowance of petrol is so inadequate that the only way a man could put a face on half doing his job is by using a vehicle that will consume less petrol in fine weather and conserving a little petrol for the car in bad weather. What difference does it make if a man gets only one-fifth of the petrol to do his job?

Take the case of a doctor. What does it mean in his case? That patients are visited once when heretofore they were visited five times, and for four days they will be left to carry on in a state of mental anxiety, possibly excruciating pain, because the doctor cannot reach them. If, on the other hand, he can use a motor bicycle, and he makes the petrol go three times as far, it means that he can visit these unfortunate patients three times when heretofore he used to visit them five times. Is that a thing which, in the opinion of Parliament, should be discouraged? Is there anything unworthy in that? Is the man to be condemned only to be able to reach on one-fifth of his patients because somebody says it would give him a position of advantage over rival competitors? How can you get equality? One man may have a horse; another man may be young enough to ride a bicycle; another man may have producer-gas fitted to his car. But in all these cases an equal grant of petrol will be made.

If the Minister would look into this question from any but a Party point of view, he would see that it is the function of the Minister for Supplies beyond anyone else to encourage everybody to use any and every possible expedient in order to do as much of their job of work as heretofore with very considerably less petrol. I would say to the Minister in all seriousness that we are living in a time when it is necessary to economise not only in petrol, but in petrol and tyres, and the obvious way to economise in both is to encourage people when possible to use the very lightest type of motor vehicle. The present Order, as carried out, makes that impossible. You are told you can have a disc for your car and not for a motor bicycle, or you can have a disc for the motor bicycle and not for the car, and that that disc is not transferable. The allowance of petrol in either case is mathematically worked out, so that, whether you opt for the car or opt for the motor bicycle, the petrol will only carry you exactly the same distance. Being human beings, what will people do if the petrol is only going to carry them the same distance? They will opt for the luxury vehicle; they will opt for the car. They will cover less ground, they will use more rubber, and the life of the tyres will be shorter.

My suggestion is that the disc given to such people should be transferable from one vehicle to the other, so that fine weather and good roads will tempt the disc holder to use the more economical vehicle as frequently as possible, and thereby do more work and use less rubber. Surely that is a point of view with which any sensible man outside the Civil Service will readily agree? Why is it not done? What is against it? That one man might do more work by that means than his neighbour; that one man might be able to bring relief to more suffering human beings by that means than his neighbour; that one clergyman would bring spiritual consolation to more people through that means than another. Are these worthy reasons for turning down the suggestion? If there are better reasons, then I am anxious to hear them. If there are not better reasons, it is not a sufficient answer to the suggestion to say that it is made from the Opposition Front Bench. It is not a sufficient reason for refusing the suggestion to say that the Order was in draft before the suggestion was made.

Nearly 18 months ago I urged on the Minister and his advisers the absurdity of giving a flat-rate allowance to clergymen, doctors and others that had no connection with their work. They were given an allowance of petrol on their diplomas and not on their work. The man who had not to travel a mile in the year to do his duty got the same amount of petrol as the man with the biggest rural district, with the greatest population in the whole country. When I put up that nearly 18 months ago, and when I pointed out the absurdity of it and asked to have it justified, the answer I got was that the Order was in print.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know who gave that answer. I did not.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister did not give that answer. That was the answer given to me, and it took 18 months to get a little common sense to replace the lunacy of that particular Order. Are we going to have the same thing in connection with this Order: that simply because an Order was in print or in draft before the suggestion was made, it will take another 18 months to get a little common sense and intelligence into the scheme?

I do not know with what authority, whether official or semi-official, articles are appearing in the newspapers with regard to how, when and where an authorised disc holder may use his vehicle. I saw a rather absurd thing yesterday to the effect that a member of an essential service could not use his disc vehicle to get to and from his place of residence; that he could only use it on his business and to get to his place of business. I wonder what genius was responsible for such an utterance. Take a clergyman. Where is a clergyman's place of business? Is it not at the bedside of the dying, wherever they may be? Is it not at his home where he keeps the instruments of his sacred office? Must he not move from the bedside to his home?

Where is the place of business of the doctor—the average general practitioner? It is at the bedside of the patient, and in his home where he keeps his records, his equipment, where he writes up his case sheets, and where he has his reference books. It is an absurdity in connection with an Emergency Order to say that members of essential services cannot use a disc vehicle for the purpose of getting from their place of business to their residence. Would it not be a nice state of affairs if a doctor had to leave his car five or six miles away at the hospital or at the dispensary, and to walk home, and, on getting a call that night, to walk to the hospital to get out his car before getting around to where the patient lived, merely because some genius sitting at the back of a desk would not enter into consultation with anybody who knew the job before those pronouncements were made? On glancing at the announcement, there is not a single Deputy in this House who could not see the absurdity of it in application to members of essential services. Where is a midwife's place of business? Her place of business is, naturally, her residence. Her official place of business may be the dispensary, but her actual place of business is her residence, where she keeps her equipment, where she keeps her records, where she keeps her case sheets, where she keeps and files temperature charts, and where she is on call at any time she is required.

The result of those ill-considered and irresponsible pronouncements is that officers and officials act on them, and there is any amount of irritation being experienced by people at the present moment who, under a serious handicap and with every possible interference, official and semi-official, are only able in part to respond to a very high calling. I do not know who decides what persons or classes of persons will get discs, and who will not get discs. One would imagine, with the Department of Supplies dealing with cases of this kind, that there would be the closest co-operation and the fullest consultation between the Department of Supplies and the Department of Local Government and between the Department of Supplies and the various organisations affected. On an occasion last January, the Minister—12 months after a great interference with the work of doctors —communicated with the Medical Union to the effect that, if they sent forward a list of 100 rural dispensary doctors, extra petrol would be given to them. The Medical Union issued an advertisement, giving a very short time to reply, because they knew they would be inundated with replies. They appointed a committee, and conscientiously night after night that committee waded through all the answers to the advertisement. They drafted a list of 100 doctors, including five or six county tuberculosis medical doctors. When that list reached the Department of Supplies, every tuberculosis officer was blue-pencilled without any consultation with the Department of Local Government.

In a position of this gravity, seeing that outside the city 90 per cent. of the doctors and the nurses and the veterinary surgeons are in the employment, directly or indirectly, of the Local Government Department, surely the fact that one Department happens to be at Ballsbridge and the other at the Custom House is no justification for the lack of adequate discussion between the two Departments. If the matter were discussed with the Local Government Department, the issue of petrol would be according to the requirements of the district, according to the area, the population, and the number of red tickets, and not just according to the qualifications or diplomas which anyone happened to get years ago. There in black and white you have the area of each district, the population, and the average number of sick, and an allowance should be made somewhat in accordance with the work to be done.

Similarly, in the case of midwives, surely there must be a direct relationship between the work of a midwife and the birth rate in her district. The birth rate in different dispensary districts varies from less than two a month to 20 or 30 a month, and the absurdity of a flat rate allowance of petrol is there evident on the very surface. All that information is in the Department of Local Government. I remember when the British—whom we all strove to get rid of in this country—had to face a similar situation here, the forerunner of our Department of Local Government and Public Health provided a scheme for all such persons, and the scheme in its application was reasonable and sound. Everyone was reduced more or less in proportion, but the amount given, if you took one man's district against another, was based on the work to be done in the district, and not on all those calculations about the horsepower of cars, and so on.

I want to say to the Minister that there is a definite link between the matter which we are discussing and dangers to health. I would be guilty of moral cowardice if I did not say outright what is in my mind, and point to the dangers I see ahead. We have gone through a couple of years of shortage of fuel. We have gone through a couple of years of more or less increasing poverty. We have gone through a couple of years when soap was getting very scarce and very dear. We have gone through a couple of years when, in the ordinary household, there was not the same supply of hot water as there used to be. Through lack of fuel in many homes, people are putting on overcoats to go to bed at night. There is less soap; there is less washing, and all over the country there is a very general increase in infestation from lice. I was warned some months ago by a senior medical officer of the Army that conditions generally were getting so bad that almost any man who went home on leave a couple of times came back lice-infested. The body louse is the only medium for the spread of typhus fever; no lice, no typhus fever. If the whole Dáil were full of typhus, with only one man free from it moving amongst the whole lot of them, and if there were no living louse, that man could not be infected with typhus fever.

It is interesting to know that in the Famine years, when the standard of life was low, when the standard of nourishment was particularly low, when the people were poverty-stricken throughout this land and before the name of typhus fever was ever known, in all the medical textbooks it was called Irish fever. It has been practically wiped out in this country for the last 50 years. There was one exception, an outbreak about 1912. You have it in Europe at the moment and you have that state of affairs that I mention in this country. You have typhus raising its head again in two or three counties, and for 12 months back you have had every health visitor, every public health nurse, every sanitary inspector graded as a private person for the allowance of petrol, and since 1st May you have the extraordinary position that it is illegal for any one of them to use cars on the roads.

I was told some three months ago that this country was surely heading for as big an outbreak of typhus fever as it ever faced. I hope that is not so, but I got startled when I read in the papers within the past few days that there has been a case, or there have been cases in two or three counties. When that is the position you have the public health staff in every county driven off the roads, the visiting staff, sanitary inspectors and visiting nurses not allowed by law to use cars on the road. Was there any consultation between the Department of Supplies and the Department of Local Government with regard to that? If there was, and if the Department of Local Government did not make strong and vigorous, continuous and determined recommendations, then the responsibility is on the Department of Local Government. If, on the other hand, those recommendations were made by the Department of Local Government and rejected by the Department of Supplies, the responsibility for the appalling state of affairs that is there at the moment and for anything that arises out of that state of affairs is definitely on the Department of Supplies.

I should like the Minister to get in contact with his colleague in the Department of Local Government, because I submit that the soil is there prepared, beautifully prepared, in this country for as big and thumping an outbreak of typhus as ever hit any country, that the time to get energetic and to forestall it is before it gets growth, and that the only way of finding an infested house is through the school-child. If your machinery for school inspection is paralysed, immobilised or non-existent, then your detector machinery is gone. If typhus does hit this country, as things are it will create more casualties in one month than would be created by the total war that we are all talking and thinking about, with this difference, that we have it in our own power to avert one, while averting the other depends upon circumstances outside of our control.

I listened to a broadcast from Great Britain with regard to steps similar to those that we have taken about curtailing or limiting the use of motor cars and I would commend that particular broadcast to the Minister for Supplies and to his advisers. In that broadcast they classified essential services very much as we classify them here, with this exception, that nurses here are restricted to midwives. Visiting nurses, district nurses, those women who have been doing great and noble work in this country for years, taking control of a whole or half a county, bringing consolation and solace and skill into the homes of stricken people, are here, according to our Order, to be criminals from 1st May if they use cars on the roads. The Order over there had the stamp of serious consideration, of considering as far as possible the human beings that go to make up that great country. In addition to essential services, they had people who were gravely disabled, whether through the loss of a limb, through blindness or through very great age. They had confirmed and chronic invalids. They had people who lived for a number of years past more than a certain number of miles away from their offices or places of business. You had there every evidence of an attempt to adjust the hardship to the Order.

Mr. Lemass

The average man would say it was evidence of more petrol.

Dr. O'Higgins

I do not know whether the Minister is an average man or I am an average man, but certainly, if we are going to go into the allocation of petrol and if we are to see where there is most waste, whether in this country or Great Britain, then we will be getting on to a very big field and the cantering over that field will not suit the Minister as well as it will suit me. There could not be a black market in petrol here if some people were not getting far too much.

Mr. Lemass

Who?

Dr. O'Higgins

Bogus lorry owners, bogus turf drawers, bogus timber men, bogus hackney men and all kinds of ramifications and particular outcrops of the necessary instruments of defence. Every Deputy sitting behind the Minister, in the confidence of his own office, will be able to tell him where the leakage is and what creates that vast black market in petrol. The black market is evidence of the too free issue of petrol coupons where they are not of necessity required. If we curbed that, then there would be more petrol for really hard cases and more petrol for essential services.

The easiest thing is to make a rule and make it rigid, without any exceptions. We are living in a year when everybody in the country, from the Head of the State down, is calling for more and more grain and tillage. Here and there you had a farmer who had put by a little money and who bought a little bit of land, perhaps ten or 15 miles away from his own home, and was working it in addition to his own farm, and that system was based upon motor transport between the two places. No exceptions were made, according to the Minister's interruption, because the petrol is not available. In the same parish, provided they pay 10/- or 15/- a gallon for petrol, they could get it ad lib., because to some people, to some services or to some classes, far too much petrol has been issued in the past. There is no other explanation.

General Mulcahy

I desire to second the motion. The points that I wish to add to those of Deputy O'Higgins are small, perhaps, but nevertheless, I think they require to be added. Take the case here in town of an establishment where there are 900 boys—a regular small town. The brother in charge of that establishment has been refused a disc. A small town of 900 inhabitants might not even have the active life of this community, which is just one particular community typical of others that I speak of. The contacts they require with the outside world are very varied. Because the car belonging to the place cannot be disced, a taxi has to be taken for this, that and the other occasion. On a particular day of the week, the bank has to be visited and £150 drawn: that means a taxi out and back.

Mr. Lemass

Is there a bus service? There is, is there not?

General Mulcahy

A bus from this particular establishment to the bank? If the Minister would care to travel with £150 or £175 in his pocket in a regular routine way between his establishment and his bank, nowadays, there are people who are a little more realistic and prudent.

Mr. Lemass

We do not do these things because we like it; it is because we have to. Heads of other businesses have to.

General Mulcahy

If this were a small town, there would be at least a couple of taxis or hackney cars in it, but the bus will not serve to do the very many journeys, for purposes of supplies or business of one kind or another, that connect a small enclosed community of that kind with its supply services outside. Taxis will be used for some purposes and lorries and buses will be used for others, but it is simply utter unreasonableness to deny the use of a motor vehicle to a community of that particular kind.

The next point is this. When we consider the strain there is on local bus services at the present time, and the difficulty people have of getting in to their employment, persons who have cars and who reside outside the city a distance of five or six miles might at least be permitted the use of their cars to come from their residences to business. The Minister has very many ways: he could get undertakings that the motor cars available in that particular way would be used simply to bring the residents from the house to the place of business in the city. When we consider the number of people living outside the City of Dublin, in a radius of ten or 12 miles, and consider that children have to come in to the schools, and that members of the household come in to business in one way or another, it is easy to see that, with all the traffic thrown on the buses, the buses will not be able to bear it. There is an absolute waste and a considerable amount of inconvenience and dislocation of personal time of business people, by forcing unnecessarily all the residential traffic on to the buses that are there.

The next case is that of Deputies. We are at a very critical time in the country and there have been appeals for co-operation in the formation of parish associations of all kinds dealing with the defence of the country and the increase of production. While all those appeals have been going out, we find local authorities immobilised in one way or another now, a county council wiped out here and committees of agriculture there. We have Deputies who are given practically no place in the various organisations that have been set up to meet the emergency. They have a place of their own, if that were properly filled and if this House were functioning as it ought to function. Take the size of the constituencies that we have— taken even a comparatively small one like Waterford, stretching from Dunmore East to Youghal; then go to West Cork, stretching from Kinsale to Castletownbere, Schull and Ballydehob; or Tipperary, stretching from Roscrea to Carrick-on-Suir, Tipperary and Cahir. Deputies who represent those constituencies have very grave responsibilities to keep in touch with the local conditions. They never had greater responsibility than at the present time, and no recognition is given to the fact that they should not only fulfil their normal responsibilities as Deputies but be in touch with the various activities of one kind or another to increase production and increase defence.

Our people have been fighting for generations for their own Parliamentary institutions, to stand over the development of the country and its defence. We have, for one reason or another, got into the position that, from the man in the street to our Press, nothing is left undone that can be done to belittle the position and responsibilities of Parliament here. A very large part of the responsibility for that—if not the whole of it—falls on the shoulders of the Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Party. For what have we been wanting Parliamentary institutions, if not in order that individual Deputies, representing separate constituencies, will keep the Parliament here informed fully of the conditions in those constituencies, and bring to their constituents the assistance and guidance they can bring from full and thorough discussions in Parliament here?

What we have at the present time is a Parliament almost shut down as far as discussion is concerned. We are governed by the spirit which expresses itself in Section 11 of this particular Order—the spirit emanating from the Front Bench and the power that drives that spirit emanating from the silent ranks of the Party that guards the Ministerial spirit by its strength in numbers. The effects of the Order have been fully described by Deputy O'Higgins. Section 11 (1) reads:

"Whenever the Minister is satisfied that a vehicle has been used in contravention of this Order, he may if he thinks proper, cause such vehicle to be seized and removed to such place as he shall direct.

(2) A vehicle may be seized under this Article in any place, public or private, in which it is found, and the person making such seizure may, for the purpose thereof or for the removal of such vehicle, break, enter, and search any building in which he reasonably suspects such vehicle to be and may also, where necessary for such removal, forcibly enter such vehicle.

(3) Every vehicle seized and removed under this Article shall be sold or otherwise disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer at such time and in such manner as the Minister shall direct."

The Order that has been so fully described in its effects by Deputy O'Higgins provides that if a particular portion is infringed the Minister may seize the vehicle that has been the medium of the offence, and it may be sold or otherwise disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer. It typifies the spirit in which the Parliamentary institutions that the efforts of generations of the people set up here are at present being used to narrow the position of our Parliamentary institutions on the pretence of a certain shortage of petrol to prevent Deputies keeping in touch with their, in many cases, vast constituencies. That is simply an attempt to bolster up that type of spirit to dominate our institutions. I challenge Deputies sitting behind the Minister on the Government Benches to say how they can keep contact with their constituencies, in view of facts that are daily manifesting themselves, as to the growing difficulties under which their constituents work and live. How can they keep in touch if they are denied the amount of petrol allowed to a dispensary doctor or a nurse? How can they, even if they wished, inform them of the discussions of this Parliament to a greater extent than they tried to do in the past? How can they hope to do that with any conviction? In spite of those who have been decrying Deputies and decrying this House and its usefulness, I say that this Parliament is more important to the country at the present time than either its Army or its police, and anything that would intervene as an excuse or as a cause for preventing Deputies keeping in the closest possible touch with the ordinary lives of their constituents, with the movement of defence and of production going on in their constituencies, is a blow at Parliamentary institutions here at a time when they are assailed by public ignorance and most assailed by real dangers, when we realise that we have as much petrol this year as we had last year.

Mr. Lemass

Who told you that?

General Mulcahy

I am saying that we have. I challenge the Minister to deny that in the present year we did not get in as much petrol as we got in similar months last year. If the Minister has any further comment to make he will have the opportunity.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is moving to annual an Order made on May 1st.

General Mulcahy

What was that?

Mr. Lemass

The Order the Deputy is moving to annual now.

General Mulcahy

The Minister has not yet suggested that the Order was made for any purpose or for any reason other than a shortage of petrol.

Mr. Lemass

Arising on the 1st May.

General Mulcahy

The understanding from the Minister, then, is that, say, during the next three months we are not going to get in as much petrol as was got in during the equivalent months of last year. Is that it?

Mr. Lemass

I did not limit myself to the next three months.

General Mulcahy

Whatever supply of petrol we get the maintenance of contact between this Parliament and the constituencies is one of the most important things that we require petrol for. The bigger the difficulties and the bigger the dangers that are coming to this country generally, because of the breakdown of transport, the more important it is that this Parliament will be in closest possible touch with the people. That is one of the principal reasons why I support the case which Deputy O'Higgins made for the annulment of this Order. I should like to hear if there are any Deputies sitting behind the Minister prepared to stand for the Order or that Deputies can do their responsible work at present if they have not the means of transport to their constituencies.

Mr. Fagan

If the Minister says that there is no petrol, I may say that the reports down the country are that a lot of petrol has come to this country in the last few weeks. It would clear the air a bit if the Minister explained the reason for the Order. It is freely reported in the country that two tankers came in last week.

Mr. Lemass

The present month's supply is already more than several days overdue, and may not arrive at all.

Mr. Fagan

If that is so, I may say that the talk going around is that some petrol came in. I support the motion because I think the scheme could be worked in a different way. Farmers have been left out and, in my opinion, they are now in the front-line trenches. It is just as important that they should get petrol as the L.D.F. There is a good deal of petrol wasted on the L.D.F. which could be more usefully given to farmers who are producing food. We have people running around in ambulances and nurses bringing in "wounded". I saw last Sunday where lorries travelled miles to bring in "wounded". I think that is waste of money. The business of people living ten or 15 miles from a bus or from the railways has been knocked out for want of petrol. I do not think exercises of that kind are going to save the country. In my opinion that is nonsense. I got up on platforms and spoke in favour of preparing our military defences, but I think we would be better off if money was not wasted in the way I mentioned. If there is going to be war here we will not be able to stop it. It is only madness to waste money in the way I referred to instead of giving the petrol to have food produced. The farmers are in the front-line trenches, and in the midlands and the centre of the country they have no railway or bus facilities. Tuesday was an important market day, but farmers could not get to Dublin with cattle. Salesmasters could not get to Dublin to sell cattle. There was no bus from Mullingar and there was no train service from the midlands.

There was no train at all there yesterday and then we had the buses cut off from Athlone—an important run from the middle of the country. There should be some system by which we would not have the buses used by women coming up to look at the shop windows. The buses should be confined to people who have genuine business in the city. If there is a shortage of petrol, it is the business of the Minister for Supplies to see that people who are on business can get seats in a bus. People who are going only as far as Kilcock get into a bus at Aston Quay. They should be catered for on short runs and let people from down the country avail of the long-distance bus. I had a disc yesterday to come to the Dáil and I had to carry five persons. At Kinnegad, I found two persons waiting. They had to stop over from the previous day because there was no bus. At Enfield, there were 12 or 14 persons clamouring for seats. They all came from the middle of County Meath because there was no train coming up from Kingscourt or the middle of the county.

Mr. Belton

You violated another Order by carrying passengers.

Mr. Fagan

I could not leave the people on the road. I thought I was doing the right thing.

Mr. Belton

I was going to be arrested for coming as a passenger in my own van.

Mr. Fagan

Your van is not intended to convey people to the Dáil. It is supposed to be used for some other purpose. I think that the Minister should look up this matter and consider the situation of families living in the midlands ten or 12 miles from bus or rail. Then, certain men may have been able by hard work to buy a bit of land ten or 12 miles from their homes. These small farmers may have had an old car not worth £10 which they used for passing backwards and forwards to milk their cows and do other work of that kind. They cannot take out that old car now. Some genuine scheme should be prepared whereby everybody's case would be considered individually and nobody would be licensed except those who are in the front-line trenches. In July and August, a farmer may have to go to a fair 15 or 16 miles distant. He will want to sell his cattle and get back to his men so as to save his crops. If he goes to the fair, he will lose a whole day under present conditions. There should be some provision by which he could go to the local Gárda barracks and get a disc for the journey, even if he had to pay a small tax. A man like that cannot afford to hire a car in these cases.

If the petrol position improves, the people who should get petrol first are the farmers. I have no sympathy with the people for whom Deputy Mulcahy pleads who live around the city and who have Drumm trains and other conveyances at their service. I am concerned for people who are living ten or 15 miles from bus and rail, particularly the people in the midlands. I do not know whether the Minister will answer for their sins or not but there are several old people in that area who did not go to Mass since these restrictions were imposed. The custom was for a person with a car to carry four or five of these people to Mass. It was thought a lucky thing to do. Now, that cannot be done, and people living six and seven miles from the chapel in country places are in a difficult situation. I know that, owing to the shortage of petrol, the right thing to do was to knock off a lot of the cars. Since the Minister has knocked them off, he should set up a committee and, if he finds the position improving, he should give certain people petrol. Then he should have some scheme whereby people would not be using the buses for joy rides or a woman would not be coming up in the bus to buy a hat which she could do without. It is very hard on people who have business to transact to see these people getting into a bus in which they themselves cannot get accommodation.

Another thing I notice is that some of the buses are half-full of soldiers. They may be going on holidays, but the Army has plenty of petrol and should supply transport for them. They should not have the buses half-full of soldiers going on holidays. I ask the Minister to look into these points. If he says there is a shortage of petrol, let him deal with it in a common-sense way and let those who have business travel. Some people have lost their livelihood owing to inability to travel, and other people are using the buses which they have no need to use. I ask the Minister to make an announcement and say that this is done because of the shortage of petrol. In Mullingar, there was a football match on Sunday and there were from 30 to 50 cars there. It is hard on people who cannot get to Mass because of shortage of petrol to see 30 or 40 cars at a football match. I have played a great deal of hurling and football myself but, when it is a case of putting one's nose to the grind-stone, business should come before pleasure.

Minister for Supplies (Mr. Lemass)

I think that the speeches that we have heard this evening from Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Mulcahy entitle us to despair of ever getting some members of the Dáil to face realities. Is it not time we got out of this world of fancy and faced facts? This country is facing a crisis of the first magnitude arising out of difficulties, inevitable during the course of this year, in connection with transport. I am not using the term "crisis" merely for the purpose of dramatic effect. It may be impossible for us to move the harvest. There may be, in parts of the country, an actual shortage of food because of inability to deliver available stocks into those districts. Hundreds of people are losing their employment because of shortage of transport. Thousands more will lose their employment for the same cause. It is in relation to facts of that kind that this motion must be considered and that the representations made by Deputies concerning certain sections of the community to which they belong, or in which they are interested, must be judged. Deputy O'Higgins wants more petrol for doctors. Deputy Mulcahy wants more petrol for Deputies. Deputy Fagan wants more petrol for farmers. I am sure that every Deputy who may intervene in this debate will urge that more petrol be given to the particular section of the community with which he is most familiar. We all know that a shortage of petrol is bound to cause inconvenience and hardship, but that is not the question we have to discuss here. We know that inconvenience and hardship cannot be avoided, but is it possible to use the dwindling stocks at our disposal to minimise the hardship?

We do not get rid of hardship by talking about it. We do not create pools of petrol by making speeches such as those to which we have just listened. We cannot increase our supply of petrol by imagining the increased supply is there, as Deputy Mulcahy did. In normal times, when this country had abundance of rail transport and unrestricted road transport services—frequently, far in excess of the country's needs—we consumed, on every form of motor transport, approximately 44,000,000 gallons of petrol in the year. Last year, we got 20,000,000 gallons. This year, we will get, perhaps, half that amount or, if we are lucky, 60 per cent.—that is to say, 12,000,000 gallons. Deputies can try to persuade themselves, if they like, that some miracle is going to happen and that the curtailment of our petrol supplies which we anticipate will not occur. But can we base our plans upon the expectation of miracles? I do not think we can. If we are going to find ourselves this year with not more than 12,000,000 gallons, against a normal consumption of 44,000,000 gallons, if we have to make these 12,000,000 gallons provide for transport services which in normal times were supplemented by railway services, omnibus services operated on fuel oil and other public conveniences which do not now exist or do not exist on the same scale, we must make up our mind that somebody has to do without petrol. The elimination of the private car altogether from the roads of this country, whether driven by doctors, midwives, farmers, priests, or any other class of the community, will save 1,500,000 gallons. That is all. Last year we had 20,000,000 gallons and we had a debate like this in the Dáil in which the inconvenience caused by the curtailment in the petrol supply was pictured in the same terms as were used here to-day. But this year we have to do with at least 8,000,000 gallons less and only 1,500,000 gallons of that 8,000,000 can be secured by the elimination of the private motor car. These are some facts I want Deputies to face. Deputy Mulcahy said that he had been informed that we are going to get the same quantity of petrol this year as we got last year. We are not.

General Mulcahy

I did not. I said we had, up to the present.

Mr. Lemass

May I put the Deputy right on that? He will remember that at the beginning of last year we had no petrol. At the beginning of last year we were informed by those companies that are supplying our petrol supplies that we were going to get no more petrol for the duration of the war. There was no petrol for private cars for the first three months of last year.

General Mulcahy

The Minister did not take us into his confidence with regard to that information.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy not merely was taken into Ministerial confidence, but actually succeeded in getting a special meeting of the Dáil to discuss it.

General Mulcahy

We were not told that.

Mr. Lemass

And he was given much more information than I am giving now. I refer the Deputy to the debate that took place then.

Dr. O'Higgins

In November.

Mr. Lemass

In January of last year. Subsequently, the position improved, petrol supplies were resumed and we did succeed in getting over the whole of last year—not in the first three months because in the first three months we got very little petrol -20,000,000 gallons. Delivery of petrol at the same rate as during the latter part of last year continued for the first three months of this year, but I am now informed that the total quantity we can expect to get, at the maximum, is between 12,000,000 and 13,000,000 gallons, counting what we have already got, which means that the quantity to come in between now and the end of the year will not be half the quantity that came in in the same period last year. I am trying to get Deputies to understand that these are facts. They were officially stated in the newspapers but Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Mulcahy choose not to believe them because if they did believe them they could not make the type of speech they have made here this evening. They cannot dodge facts. They cannot make motor cars run upon the type of hot air we get in speeches here. If we are to provide for doctors, Deputies, farmers and all other classes of the community who know that they are inconvenienced by the absence of private motor cars, we have got to take petrol from the essential services. The essential services are those engaged in the transportation of food and fuel upon which the lives of people in many parts of the country depend, upon which the industry of the country depends, upon which the employment of thousands of people depends. We cannot give more petrol to doctors unless we take it from somebody else. Deputy O'Higgins says we are giving too much petrol to hackney owners and lorry owners.

Dr. O'Higgins

Only to bogus ones.

Mr. Lemass

This talk about bogus ones is all nonsense. No doubt, here and there, somebody gets an allocation of petrol to which he is not entitled, but the total quantity involved is only a bagatelle.

Dr. O'Higgins

Where does the black market petrol come from?

Mr. Lemass

If it is not suggested that hackney owners or lorry owners are getting too much petrol, then bona fide people engaged in the transportation of goods or whose employment depends upon the availability of a hackney vehicle or other means of transportation must get less petrol if we are to give more to doctors, as Deputy O'Higgins wants, more to Deputies as Deputy Mulcahy wants, or more to farmers as Deputy Fagan wants—and I would much prefer to give it to the farmers.

Dr. O'Higgins

In the whole of my statement, from beginning to end, I did not ask for one drop of extra petrol for doctors. I asked for permission for them to use motor bicycles so that their petrol could go further.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy O'Higgins made our flesh creep with his picture of the possibilities of epidemics developing throughout the country because doctors, midwives and nurses were being put off the roads and declared to be criminals if they used the roads. We had all the usual type of declamatory statement that Deputy O'Higgins is so famous for. He said they would be criminals if they used the roads. What was the purport of that except to suggest that in some way the Government was deliberately trying to inconvenience these people and limit their operations?

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister is deliberately misquoting me.

Mr. Lemass

Even if that is correct —and I deny it—I have as much right to misquote the Deputy as he has to misquote me, without interruption.

Dr. O'Higgins

On a point of personal explanation. I did not ask for more petrol for doctors or midwives. I asked that sanitary officers and public health nurses should be allowed a disc on their car so as to be allowed to carry out their duties as health visitors.

Mr. Lemass

May I be allowed to proceed without further interruption?

Dr. O'Higgins

Provided you do not misquote.

Mr. Lemass

We have got to allocate 12,000,000 gallons of petrol, provided we are lucky. I cannot say that 12,000,000 gallons will in fact come into this country this year. The only thing I can say is that not more than 12,000,000 gallons will arrive. It may be that through misfortune some of the consignments will not reach us, in which case we will have to do with less. That is 8,000,000 gallons less than we used last year. We have got to make up 8,000,000 gallons by curtailing the use of petrol by people who, last year, were getting it, even though we know that last year the reduced quantities of petrol available caused considerable inconvenience and considerable debate here about that inconvenience. We can make up only 1,500,000 out of the 8,000,000 by putting private cars off the road. The transportation of goods and the public passenger services must be cut to make up the other 6,500,000. Having got that fact clearly understood by Deputies, we can proceed to appreciate on their merits the claims made on behalf of doctors, Deputies and other sections of the community.

I have no desire to curtail petrol allocations to doctors, to limit the operations of county medical officers of health, to restrict the beneficial services rendered by midwives, county nurses or any other persons associated with humanitarian services. If they are restricted, it is because we have no option but to restrict them. Deputy Mulcahy's suggestion that it is unwise to deny petrol to the residents of the suburbs of Dublin and compel them to use buses was the poorest argument advanced here. No doubt, the bus services are restricted and, no doubt, in due course, bus services will have to be further restricted and may disappear, and these people will have no means of getting into town except on their feet.

General Mulcahy

The buses are not sufficient for the traffic there is at the moment.

Mr. Lemass

Of course they are insufficient for the traffic. I know that. Only within the past month I found it necessary to have further discussions as to the possibility of effecting still more substantial reductions in the public transport service because the means of carrying them on are not there. We are not restricting transport services or petrol allocations or other public conveniences because of a whim. We are doing these things because stark necessity is driving us to do them.

We cannot give petrol to suburban residents to come into Dublin and thus avoid putting them to the necessity of using the bus service. We cannot give petrol to farmers who have farms at some distance from their residences which they want to look after, much though we should like to do it. We cannot give any more petrol to doctors, however great the need is, because we have not got it. We have at the moment to face the fact that even the existing curtailments in the use of motor vehicles is not going to be sufficient. We have to go further. We have operated, it is true, the permit system only in respect of private cars for this month. Inevitably, it will have to be extended to light vans in respect of which a considerable number of abuses are evident. In order to get these under control, and to limit the use of them, it will be necessary to provide that permits for their operation will also be required. Doctors, undoubtedly, have a need for transport for emergency calls. That is the only justification for giving them petrol at all. It may be an inconvenience for a doctor not to be able to use his car when travelling from his place of residence to his consulting rooms or to his place of business, but we must get these doctors to understand that, in so far as we have given them petrol, it is merely for the purpose of enabling them to carry out their duties when there is no other means of doing so except the use of motor transport.

The argument that a doctor must always take his car with him to enable him to attend any call that may come along could be extended indefinitely. It could be suggested that if he goes to a theatre it would be necessary to take his car with him, as he might get a call while in the theatre. It could be suggested that if he went to a golf club he might be rung up there by some patient needing his services and that he should therefore be allowed to take his car to the golf club. These arguments, all of which have been advanced to me by medical people, indicate a failure to realise the seriousness of the situation. We have given doctors petrol because of the possibility that once in a while an emergency call will reach them which they cannot attend other than by the use of a car, but if there is any other means by which they can attend to their duties and serve the requirements of their patients, without the use of their cars, they must do so, because it is only with considerable difficulty that petrol is being made available for them at all. The same remark applies to other classes in respect to whom permits for the use of private cars have been issued—clergymen, veterinary surgeons and midwives.

We have, I know, found it difficult to distinguish between the relative merits of the claims of one professional person and another. It is quite possible that, as a result of statements made to us, some doctors and some clergymen may have got petrol that they did not really need. I want such people to understand that they are doing an injury to people in other occupations which may have very serious consequences for these people. There are many people dependent on motor transport for their employment who, if they cannot get petrol, will lose that employment. There are many industries which cannot be carried on without petrol, but it may not be possible to make petrol supplies available for all of them. No doubt there is a certain amount of unwillingness on the part of doctors, clergymen and others who have been accustomed to use a motor vehicle, to adjust their mentality to circumstances in which that motor vehicle will not be available to them, but they will have to do it. If necessary, they have got to be made to do it by the infliction of the drastic penalties for which the Order provides and to which Deputy Mulcahy objects. These drastic penalties are not put there merely because we get some pleasure out of inflicting them on people. They are put there because it is necessary to impress on the minds of people concerned how serious the situation is and how very necessary it is that they should conform to the restrictions that have been placed upon the use of motor vehicles.

Mr. McMenamin

Would the Minister consider the transfer of the disc to a motor cycle?

Mr. Lemass

I want to deal with this question because Deputy O'Higgins has elaborated on it. I find that motor vehicle owners who resent the restrictions placed upon them by the petrol situation can be divided into two classes. There are those who are in a general class but who insist that their circumstances are unique and that consequently they should get treatment denied to others in their class. On the other hand there are those whose circumstances are exceptional but who try to generalise their situation by applying a general argument to their case.

Deputy O'Higgins comes into the latter class. As I understand Deputy O'Higgins' argument, he is in favour of giving more petrol to doctors and he urged that if we could not give more petrol to doctors, we should at least give more to county medical officers. Again he urged that if more could not be made available for county medical officers, we should try to have an arrangement whereby a county medical officer who had a motor car and a motor bicycle could transfer his disc from one to the other.

Many doctors own two cars, a number of doctors own a car and a motor-bike, and some doctors cannot afford either a car or a motor-bike. Our job is not to put one class of doctors in a relatively superior position to another class. It is to distribute amongst doctors the quantity of petrol we can make available for the medical profession as equitably as possible. It is not merely necessary that the method of distribution should be equitable, but that it should appear equitable to every member of the profession. A doctor who has a 30 h.p. Daimler car may also have an 8 h.p. Ford car and he may decide that by using the petrol ration in respect of the larger car on the small car, he can cover an extra mileage. He may be a wealthy man who can afford to do that, but he would be placed in a privileged position as against the doctor who could not. Further down the scale we have the doctor who owns a motor car and a motor bicycle. He is above the young fellow who has a motor cycle only. If we were to adopt Deputy O'Higgins' suggestion, the net result would be that the richer people are, the more petrol they can get and the longer mileage they cannot knock out of that petrol.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am not asking for more petrol for doctors.

Mr. Lemass

It is a question of a device to ensure that a person will get a greater mileage out of the quantity of petrol appropriate to him than another person in the same profession.

Mr. McMenamin

To serve the public.

Mr. Lemass

The doctor who owns a motor car and a bicycle is not of any greater service to the public than a doctor who owns a motor cycle only. I do not care where you start, whether you start with a 30 h.p. Daimler or an 8 h.p. Ford, the whole purpose of the suggestion is to ensure that the better off people will get more petrol. That is how it will appear anyhow to the fellow who can only own a motor cycle. It is true that it is desirable that we should encourage people in essential services to use motor cycles if they have them in preference to using motor cars. To that end we have given, in fact, a relatively higher allocation of petrol to those who elect to use motor cycles than to those who elect to use motor cars. That is the only encouragement we can give them.

You can devise another system if you like, but I am sure that if I were to devise another system, that would be denounced more vigorously than the first. I would be told that I was not distributing available supplies fairly, that I was discriminating in favour of one section of doctors as against another section, and particularly in favour of those in better financial circumstances as against those who are not able to afford to transport themselves as they did in times of peace.

Deputy Fagan suggested that we should set up a committee to distribute petrol. I have frequently indicated my willingness to share my responsibility, in the distribution of available petrol supplies, with a Committee of the Dáil. That suggestion of mine has never been enthusiastically received, and I doubt very much if I shall renew it in view of the obvious impossibility of getting agreement, even amongst the members of the Party opposite, concerning the distribution of petrol supplies. Is it not quite clear that, amongst the three members from the Party opposite who have already spoken in this debate, you could not get agreement as to the best method of distributing petrol?

Mr. Fagan

I should like to say to the Minister that I did not suggest a Committee of the Dáil. What I had in mind was, say, the local Gárdaí, or some local committee, that would be empowered to deal with the case of, let us say, a farmer, or a group of three or four farmers, who wanted to travel ten miles or so to a fair. My idea was that you could have some such local committee that would issue a special disc to enable that group of farmers to go to the fair, and that it would be only available for that purpose. That was my idea, or something similar to that.

Mr. Lemass

I understand the Deputy's point, and I accept his assurance that he did not suggest a Committee of the Dáil. I, however, did suggest a Committee of the Dáil at one time, because I felt that it would be a convenience to me if I could share responsibility amongst the members of the Dáil for the distribution of the diminishing quantity of petrol that we have.

Mr. Curran

Is the offer still open?

General Mulcahy

It was made at one time as a red herring, and is being withdrawn now.

Mr. Lemass

It is quite obvious that no two people will agree on this question of the distribution of petrol, and somebody must make a decision, if it is to be distributed at all. My decision was to keep the maximum quantity of the available supplies for the goods transport services, and, within those services, to give most of the petrol available to the essential services. Out of the private car-owner class of persons, we selected only the doctors, the clergymen, the veterinary surgeons, and the midwives. They, and they only, are getting permits to drive cars on motor spirit.

We have also given permits to some of the public utility companies to operate cars required in connection with emergency services. There are some passenger-carrying private cars permitted to be operated by the railway companies, by the Gas Company, and by one or two other public companies of that kind, in respect of which emergencies might arise at any time, requiring the immediate transportation of engineers and others to look after things, but outside these limited classes of persons nobody has got a permit to drive a motor car on petrol. I do not want to complicate this matter by dealing with the position of cars driven by producer gas. What petrol will be left, after all these private car owners are provided for, will still be substantially less than was available for the essential goods services last year, and every Deputy knows that the quantity of petrol that was available for essential goods services last year was substantially less than enabled these services to be carried on efficiently.

Difficulties have already arisen in parts of this country, where there are no rail services, in the matter of the regular distribution of essential foodstuffs. We, who live here in the centre of the transport system of the country, do not fully appreciate that there are wide areas in this country where there are no other means of transport except the motor car, and into these wide areas foodstuffs must go regularly. The distribution of foodstuffs in these wide areas can only be achieved by means of motor vehicles, and because of the action of individuals, or because of the difficulty of maintaining a regular supply, urgent problems have already arisen in these areas. Wherever they have come to our attention, they have been remedied, but these problems are going to arise with greater frequency in the future, and the matter of distributing essential foodstuffs to these districts is going to become one of greater difficulty as time goes on, because there is none of us, I am sure, so optimistic as to believe that any improvement in the situation will take place while world conditions remain as they are. It is, I think, almost certain that this time next year the situation will be very much worse.

The sole reason why this Mechanically Propelled Vehicles Order, requiring a permit for the operation of private cars, was made was the shortage of petrol. No doubt, we would have had to consider at some time dealing by such means with the question of the utilisation of rubber, but that would not have been an urgent problem. Many of these vehicles have been equipped with tyres that would last for years, and there would have been no need for this Order merely because of the rubber situation. We could have dealt with that situation, if it were the only one confronting us, by restricting the use of tyres, or the sale of tyres to the owners of such vehicles. This Order, however, became urgently necessary when we were informed, at the beginning of April, that the total quantity of petrol that we would get this year would be 13,000,000 gallons, counting what we had already got up to that time. There might have been a possibility of being more liberal, but in view of the comparison suggested by 13,000,000 gallons as compared with the quantity last year, it was obvious that for the remaining months of the year, even more drastic action would have to be taken, and I immediately arranged to give public notice of the situation and of our intention to put the private car owner off the road, not because we wanted to put the private car owner off the road, but because we had to—there was no option.

It has been my policy, as I explained to the Dáil more than once, since the war started, to keep the private car going as long as possible. There were even times when Deputies in this House criticised me for that policy, but I did so because of the employment involved in connection with the servicing of private cars and because I knew that a very great deal of public inconvenience would result from any curtailment of their use. It is only a very small number of private car owners who use their cars exclusively for pleasure. A great many people do not use them for pleasure at all. The great majority of motor cars are bought and used by the people of this country in connection with their business, or as an essential part of the equipment required by them to carry on whatever their normal avocation is. I do not know what Deputy O'Higgins meant when he asked me to look into this question from a non-Party point of view. I do not think it is possible to have a Party point of view in connection with the allocation of 13,000,000 gallons of petrol amongst those who need petrol in this country. Probably, there was nothing behind that suggestion except an attempt to convey the impression that in some way the interests of the doctors of the country, or the Deputies or the farmers, were being prejudiced by the fact that the Minister for Supplies looked at such things from a Fianna Fáil point of view. Well, if there is a Fine Gael point of view as to how 13,000,000 gallons of petrol will be distributed among our people, let us have it.

The only suggestion that was made was that we could give more to doctors, and more to suburban car owners so as to avoid the necessity for these people travelling on the buses; and there was also the suggestion that we should give more to Deputies. Now, on this question of giving petrol to Deputies, I want to say a few words. I think I am as interested as Deputy Mulcahy is in retaining respect for this House, and I know that certain newspapers have been running a campaign designed to bring this House into disrespect. I know also that amongst uninformed sections in the country there are adverse comments on happenings here which tend to lower the prestige of the House. It must be remembered that the ordinary Deputy is a most important part of the machinery of administration. The operation of law and of Government regulations is necessarily impersonal, and in between the individual and the law there comes the Deputy, who tries to secure that the administration is softened or diverted in individual cases where justice requires it. It would be almost impossible to carry on government in the way in which we are trying to carry it on, without the rigorous and harsh penalties which are operating in some other States, if the private Deputies were not there to keep in touch with the public and to find out how a general rule was operating unfairly in an individual case, to bring that individual case forward for the attention of the Minister concerned, and generally to ensure that the circumstances of individual districts and sections would be ventilated and the necessary adjustments in general rules made to deal with them.

It is going to be a serious matter for the country if it becomes impossible for Deputies to meet their constituents and deal with the complaints of their constituents as easily as heretofore, but it is something that we cannot avoid. There are, of course, large numbers of Deputies who do not own, and never have owned, a motor car, and some of them are able to do their constituency work just as well as those who have had the advantage of the ownership of a motor car. I do not know if Deputies think it is going to help them in maintaining the prestige of this House, or their own prestige in their constituencies, if they are given an unlimited supply of motor petrol when it is known that that petrol can only be given to them at the expense of people who need it to maintain employment or to make a livelihood, and that any increase in the total allocation given to Deputies will mean that here and there throughout the country somebody is going to lose his job, that a number of people are going to be put out of employment, and that some difficulty in distribution of essential supplies is going to result. I think there is an obligation on us to ensure that Deputies are facilitated in attending meetings of the Oireachtas.

It is important that no difficulty should prevent a Deputy coming here in order to discharge his duty as a public representative. I have endeavoured to ensure that arrangements will be made which will be satisfactory in ensuring that every Deputy will be able to get to this House no matter how defective the public transport services might prove to be. Recent developments in connection with the railways, and the difficulties experienced by the railway engineers in carrying on with any regularity in existing circumstances, may involve some modification of the arrangements made for the distribution of petrol to Deputies, but I do not think it is possible for us to do more than that. I do not know if there is a majority of Deputies who would suggest that we should do more than facilitate them in attending meetings of the Oireachtas in the circumstances I have described. As I have said, there is very little prospect of an improvement in supplies in present circumstances. However, I felt there was an obligation placed upon me to ensure that, in so far as a quantity of petrol was required to enable Deputies to attend here. I was bound to give it to them, but that it was not essential, even though the lack of it might be a great inconvenience, for Deputies to have petrol to enable them to attend to their constituency work.

May I say this, also, that the enforcement of this Mechanically-propelled Vehicles Order has been taken out of the hands of the Department of Supplies by the general public? There is not a motor car which travels in Dublin now, in anything like suspicious circumstances, but dozens of reports concerning it come to the Guards or to the Department of Supplies from members of the general public who are watching it. Everybody is jealous of the person who has got a permit to drive a motor car. If the slightest irregularity occurs in the use of a car by an owner who has got a permit hundreds and thousands of reports concerning it will come in. Deputies, in these circumstances, will realise the danger they will create for themselves if they demand petrol supplies sufficient to enable them to travel freely around their constituencies. They cannot put a notice on the windscreen of their cars to indicate that they are going to see John Bourke about a bog road, about his Land Commission annuity or some other matter. The public will always assume the worst. They will assume that the Deputy is merely joy-riding, or that he is going to see a friend upon some purely personal matter, and, in the long run, the Deputy who is seen driving a car around in that way will, I think, suffer in the public estimation.

General Mulcahy

Have we come to this that we accept an Irish public spirit founded upon jealousy?

Mr. Lemass

Jealousy, in my opinion, is the strongest of all human emotions, and the Deputy should know that.

General Mulcahy

It is a very poor foundation for a public spirit.

Mr. Lemass

Unless you can change human nature, I think the Deputy would be foolish to ignore it. On this question of petrol supplies for Deputies, I am prepared to be guided by them. I have not attempted to impose my views upon the House at all. If Deputies come to me and show, with any degree of unanimity, that they think they should have unlimited petrol supplies then, no matter how the rest of the country may be curtailed, I am prepared to meet them. I will argue against it and express my point of view. I have said that I felt there was an obligation on me to see that they were facilitated in attending the meetings of the Oireachtas, and that, from that point of view, it would be unwise to demand more. But if, as I say, there is unanimity in demanding more than that, then I will be prepared to go further, but I will make Deputies understand what precisely the allocation of more petrol to them means and from whom we are going to take it in order that they should get it.

General Mulcahy

In making these representations will the Minister be prepared to drop his own word "unlimited" and say, instead, a reasonable supply?

Mr. Lemass

What constitutes a reasonable supply is, of course, always a subject of dispute. No person who gets what, in my opinion, is a reasonable supply for a certain purpose at the present time will agree that it is a reasonable supply, and I am quite certain that in the matter of their requirements Deputies will differ. It is impossible to assess the petrol requirements of one Deputy in relation to another.

General Mulcahy

Did I understand from the Minister that, if there are Deputies who consider that a particular supply of petrol is necessary for them to discharge in a reasonable way their duties to their constituents, he will be prepared to meet those Deputies and discuss with them the possibility of giving them the petrol they ask for?

Mr. Lemass

I am prepared to meet Deputies and discuss the matter at any time with them. I have already met and discussed certain aspects of this question with Deputies of all Parties. I indicated that I was prepared to meet them again at a later stage and discuss with them one particular matter which they raised but which is not urgent at the moment. Deputy Mulcahy must not misunderstand the suggestion that I am putting forward here. I do not think this is a Party matter. I do not think that we could have an organised Party view, secured by a majority vote, on this issue. I think that answers Deputies in all Parties.

That is what we want to consider, and I want them to come to their conclusions in the knowledge that we have reached the position this year that we have 12,000,000 gallons of petrol to carry on services that normally required 44,000,000 gallons: that no business man in the country, no matter how urgent his needs for motor transport may be, can get a permit to drive his car although many of them have written to me to say that if they cannot get permits to drive their motor cars the particular works they are in charge of will be stopped and the employment they are giving is going to be terminated. Notwithstanding all that, they cannot get permits for their cars. There is also the fact that many farmers in the country have urged that it will be impossible for them to supervise the tillage operations which they have undertaken unless they can get a permit for their cars. Notwithstanding that, they cannot get a permit, and it is in the light of all these circumstances that I want Deputies to consider just precisely how they should be treated in relation to the public work they have to do.

General Mulcahy

The Minister is saying to a limited number of people, attached to special institutions in the country, that if they look for what they consider to be a reasonable supply, they will incur the jealousy of a large number of other people who have, of necessity, by reason of their numbers, to go without a supply.

Mr. Lemass

What does the Deputy think? Does he not think that they will incur the jealousy of those other people to whom he refers?

General Mulcahy

If this Parliament is going to be immobilised in its essential duties by reason of ignorant public jealousy, then you might as well scrap it right away.

Mr. Lemass

I agree that we must not allow our policy to be determined entirely by what the Deputy has described as ignorant public jealousy. But I think it would be stupid to ignore that it exists.

Mr. Hickey

I think that sense of injustice is caused largely by people seeing cars operating when they cannot get a lorry to go to their part of the country.

Mr. Lemass

In my view, we have an obligation, as I have said, to give to Deputies facilities for attending meetings of the Oireachtas. Apart from the practical difficulty of assessing their needs, beyond that, in our circumstances, I think we should not give it. As I have said already, I am putting a personal view forward. It is true that I have the responsibility of defending whatever course is finally decided upon, but I am prepared to be influenced very considerably by the representations made by responsible Deputies in the matter.

Mr. Belton

How will the 12,000,000 gallons be used up; in what services? How much is the Army getting?

Mr. Lemass

I am not in a position at the moment to give details. The Deputy can take it that far the greater part of the total available supplies of petrol goes to the public transport services for the transportation of goods and fuel—mainly foodstuffs and fuel.

Mr. Belton

Is there any saving in the Army?

Mr. Lemass

There is a very substantial saving. Of course there is a great deal of misinformed comment on the use of petrol by the Army. I want to say that the use of petrol by Army vehicles is prohibited at present except under special permit and, to a very large extent, the Army are utilising horse-drawn transport and rail transport for the movement of supplies. But a very large number of the Army posts are isolated, as Deputies are aware. They are chosen for strategic or tactical purposes and are not in contact with public transport services of one kind or another. Supplies have to be brought to these posts and occasionally an Army lorry bringing supplies is seen returning empty to its base and probably people will say: "There are Army lorries running around the country empty, burning petrol." There is within the Army organisation a far stricter control of the use of petrol than exists in most organisations because, of course, Army discipline ensures that control can be effective. No doubt here and there wastage may occur. Subordinate officers and men may not carry out in full the spirit of their instructions, but these cases are few and far between and, when detected, the punishment imposed is salutary. There has been a very substantial curtailment of the use of petrol by the Army and by all Government services. As Deputies are aware, Government services did in fact utilise a great deal of motor transport in normal times.

The bulk of the petrol is going to public transport services for use in lorries and buses which are available for public hire, either the buses on the passenger services throughout the country, or the lorries operated by the licensed hauliers, whether the railway companies or the privately-licensed hauliers which are available for the transportation of anybody's goods when required. The next biggest consumers of petrol are the private lorry owners, people engaged in the transportation of goods, not for hire, but for the purpose of their own businesses. It is not necessary to enumerate all these classes. You have the local authority services, the fire brigades, ambulances, and all the services which must be kept going because of their essential character. These are the services which must not be cut except as a very last resort. The quantity of petrol which is being utilised by the private cars which are permitted to operate under this Order is considerable, even though it has been reduced by 1,500,000 gallons.

Mr. Belton

Where it is practical to use it, does the Minister's Department advise the use of horse transport?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly.

Mr. Belton

I know of half-a-dozen lorries which are carting lumber for the last couple of months for Fuel Importers, Limited, from Dun Laoghaire railway station to a yard about 300 yards away. Why is horse transport not used for that?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy does not expect me to answer that. I do not know.

Mr. Belton

Perhaps I should not put it in that way. But there should be a general policy governing short runs like that.

Mr. Lemass

Utilisation of horse transport is obviously desirable and clearly, under present circumstances, more economic than the use of motor vehicles. But, as the Deputy is aware, there are problems arising in that connection. We sometimes read in the newspapers that this limitation of petrol is going to put us back where we were 50 years ago. I am afraid it will not be even as good as that, because 50 years ago there were a number of horses and horse-drawn vehicles, harness-makers and horse-shoers that do not exist to-day, so that we could not get back even to the comparative comfort of 50 years ago in the circumstances we are now facing. Unless there is an improvement, which is unlikely, it will be much worse than it was 50 years ago so far as the transport service is concerned.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Are we to take it from what the Minister said with regard to present supplies that there will be substantially less petrol available for the transportation of corn, fuel and beet in the coming season than last year?

Mr. Lemass

No. The Deputy must not assume that. It may be so, but the aim must be to ensure that for these essential services the quantity of petrol required will be available and, in order to ensure that, we have to cut other less essential services more drastically than otherwise would be required.

Mr. D. Morrissey

That is a most important point which I should have liked to have cleared up. The Minister has already stated that we shall have less petrol available this year for that particular type of transport than last year.

Mr. Lemass

That is right. It is because of that that I want Deputies to understand why I feel obliged to resist the pressure put upon me by individuals or by sections of individuals to increase their allocation on the ground of the inconvenience or even the hardship imposed. Some Deputy referred to cripples who are unable to go to Mass, or other people who were depending on motor vehicles to get around at all. I have had thousands of letters from people in such circumstances and it has not been an easy matter to write back to say it cannot be done. Even though many of those letters reveal circumstances which would almost justify exceptional treatment, and certainly make it possible to defend that exceptional treatment in the Dáil, I felt that the only wise course to take was to confine the use of private vehicles to persons in definite categories and refuse to consider even the circumstances of other cases, because, no matter how strong the circumstances were, it would not be possible to grant the concession asked for, having in the back of my mind the fact that later in the year there will be this problem of getting the corn off the farms into the mills, of getting the beet into the sugar factories, of getting turf into the cities, and of bringing firewood and other essential commodities to the places where they are required. We had a tremendous problem in dealing with that last year, even though the quantity to be moved was less than we hope it will be this year, and the amount of petrol we had to do it was greater.

In this year we have to carry a much greater quantity with less petrol. It will be a tremendous problem. It may be impossible to solve it by that means. It may prove impossible to solve it altogether. In the course of the next 12 months I have no doubt that there will be local periods of breakdown in the transport services which will cause individual hardship. So that we must make up our minds that nobody will get more petrol except he can show that it is essential not merely in the individual interest, but in the national interest that he should get it.

Mr. D. Morrissey

In view of the fact that there will not be sufficient motor transport available to deal with corn, beet and turf, will the Minister say whether the Government or his Department or any other Department is making any arrangements to try to set up machinery to provide alternative transport, whether army transport or horse-drawn transport; or whether there is any proper plan of co-ordination in order to get alternative transport, because you can lose a harvest of wheat in 24 hours?

Mr. Lemass

That is so. Those matters have been considered. I cannot go into details——

Mr. Morrissey

Is there anybody doing that?

Mr. Lemass

You cannot go into the details of all those matters. Those things must be left to the co-operation of a multitude of individuals.

Mr. Morrissey

I am talking about the Government at the moment.

Mr. Lemass

So far as the Government is concerned, it can only give general directions. There is no use in talking about army transport if the Deputy means army transport driven by petrol.

Mr. Morrissey

I mean army horse transport.

Mr. Lemass

Army horse transport is not very plentiful; in fact, any type of horse transport is not very plentiful. If we had to rely entirely on horse transport, I doubt very much if the job could be done.

Mr. Morrissey

We will not have to rely on it entirely.

Mr. Lemass

Not this year. So far as the transportation of turf is concerned, the work has proved satisfactory up to the present, but I cannot guarantee that the coal difficulty, which is now becoming acute for the railway company, will not interfere with it. It seems indicated that there is a maximum quantity of turf which can be moved, and that that maximum quantity will be moved. I do not say that the quantity will be entirely sufficient to meet the needs of the non-turf areas, but we have decided that it cannot be increased because of transport difficulties. The problem of the transport of grain is a different one, because to a much greater extent you can get the co-operation of a large number of individuals to make the problem easier. That is largely a matter of giving general directions, knowing that behind those general directions there will be individual gain, which, of course, is a very compelling motive in securing co-operation along the lines suggested. I have spoken longer than I intended, because Deputies kept me going by asking me questions. I do not think there is any case against this Order.

I think it would be sheer madness to pass a resolution annulling this Order and removing the restrictions on the use of transport. No Deputy who is prepared to face the facts, and to devise a plan of action based on the facts, could possibly vote for this motion.

Mr. Fagan

Will the Minister do anything to prevent unnecessary travel on the buses? The buses are full of people who have no business whatever to transact.

Mr. Lemass

I should not like to promise that. I tried it once, and it was not a success. I should dislike very much to have to face again the problem of trying to determine priorities for people travelling on buses and other passenger-carrying services, but a time may come when it will have to be done.

Mr. Hughes

I have not very much time to say anything on this, because Deputy O'Higgins has to get an opportunity of replying. At the beginning of his speech the Minister advised Deputies to get out of the world of fancy and live in a world of reality. I wonder has the Minister taken the trouble of getting himself properly informed on the world of reality? The Minister has not shown very much solicitude for the good name of this institution here. He comes in with a proposal which has been prepared by a bureaucratic machine in that cloistered Department of his——

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy get it into his head that the proposal was prepared by me and nobody else, and that I have taken personal responsibility for it?

Mr. Hughes

I know this much, that the Minister is absolutely adamant in this House, and that no matter what representations are made to him he never varies any proposal that he brings in. No matter what is the practical experience of Deputies in this House, the Minister's attitude is to stick to his original proposal, no matter what merit there may be in the case made against it. Personally, that is what I resent more than anything else in the attitude of the Minister towards any problem which he has to face. We must all appreciate that the Minister has a difficult job, but to my mind his attitude towards those questions is not making his job any easier. One of the things that I feel more aggrieved about than anything else in his method of distribution of the available supplies is the fact that he has, through thick and thin, stuck to distribution on a class basis. It is ridiculous to allocate petrol to medical men as a class, irrespective of what their work is. As Deputy O'Higgins has pointed out——

Mr. Lemass

That is not the practice now.

Mr. Hughes

——it is simply giving them petrol on the basis of their diplomas. Is there differentiation between individuals now?

Mr. Lemass

That is right.

Mr. Hughes

And is that done all over?

Mr. Lemass

It is done in respect of all those persons in essential services. There is no basic ration.

Mr. Hughes

That is done only in certain categories, and, outside those categories, no matter what the hardships are or what the national interest is, the Minister is not prepared to entertain any proposals. For instance, it appears to me to be an extraordinary situation that a man who is operating three or four tractors, which require a good deal of supervision, is denied even the use of a motor bicycle. I do not know whether or not the Minister proposes to make any provision for this situation, but I can well visualise that he will adopt a cast-iron attitude in regard to it. A man who has to supervise the operations of four or five threshing sets over a big area will not be allowed any petrol, and, side by side with him, you have a county instructor getting petrol. I think, from the national point of view, there is no analogy between the two. The man who is giving the really essential service is the man who operates the threshing sets; the county instructor could use a bicycle or a bus or any other public mode of conveyance. His is certainly not an essential service by any means. There are many other types of Government inspectors whose work is not an essential service at the present time. Representations have already been made to the Minister, that, in the case of people who have out-farms, and must visit those out-farms in order to supervise the work, the use of a motor bicycle or an autocycle would be very essential if the food production on those farms is to be properly and efficiently carried out. Such a case will not be considered by the Minister in any shape or form. That is what I resent more than anything else, that the Minister is still sticking to certain classes and certain categories, and under no consideration whatever is he prepared to depart from them.

The amount of petrol available in the country at the present time is so very small that it should be the Minister's concern to use it in the best interests of the community as a whole. I am not making a case for myself; I am not making a case for any particular individual.

Mr. Lemass

Is it the Deputy's suggestion that I should use an individual discretion?

Mr. Hughes

Some one should use an individual discretion.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy undertake not to allege that I gave petrol to a Fianna Fáil supporter and refused it to a Fine Gael supporter?

Mr. Hughes

I never alleged anything of the sort.

Mr. Lemass

It would be alleged if I used individual discretion.

Mr. Hughes

I never made such an accusation against the Minister or anybody else. I am simply urging that, in a case like this, you must deal with individuals, when individuals are looked upon as giving essential service. With the limited amount of petrol available, you cannot put people into definite categories, and say that they all belong to the same class. In the case of doctors, all of whom have been placed in one category, there is a wide variation in the volume of work that must be done by those men. Similarly, with regard to clergymen, the Minister knows that the transport problems of a clergyman living in the city or in a big town are very different from those of a clergyman in a rural parish say in West Kerry or somewhere like that. The Minister is not prepared to make any differentiation there.

Mr. Lemass

I do, certainly.

Mr. Hughes

Why does the Minister not go outside these categories and cater for the few men we suggest?

Mr. Lemass

It is not a question of a few men, unfortunately.

Mr. Hughes

Well, relatively few.

Mr. Lemass

There are at least 35,000 car owners.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister told the House that the total saving effected by putting all cars off the roads would be 1,500,000 gallons. He has been asked to explain where the petrol came from that reached the black market. There was a big volume of petrol offered on the black market and it must have come from people who did not require it, people who got too much of it, or who, by false representations to the Department, secured a supply. It is in such a set of circumstances that the Minister persists in the distribution of petrol on a class basis. I think such a system is most unfair and it creates a good deal of hardship. The Minister should consider individual cases outside the categories he has mentioned, cases where petrol is of vital importance, cases of men who have to do essential work, who have to supervise food production, who have to travel to farms ten or 15 miles away and possibly transport working men there.

It is unfortunate that at no time has the Minister shown any great sympathy for the agriculturist and his problems. Possibly because the Minister is a city man he does not appreciate the problems that the farming community have to contend with. They have to tackle those problems, they have to surmount problems that seem almost insurmountable. I suggest to him that although it is important that petrol would be retained for defence purposes, for the L.D.F. and the Red Cross, the most important service, the one we must preserve at all costs, is that concerned with the production of food. In the neighbouring country the people who are engaged in food production are not overlooked, even though there are limited petrol supplies. Where a man can make a case for a supply, his case is fully examined, and I cannot see why the Minister should shut the door in the faces of the people here and say that no matter what hardship exists he will not examine any case. Will the Minister consider the plight of the type of man I have in mind, the man who owns four, five or six threshing sets and who is anxious to operate them over a big area? These sets need constant attention. It is essential that these machines should be carefully supervised. Then you have the case of the man with three or four tractors, the man who is operating them for ploughing and general cultivation work. How can he serve these tractors or ensure that they are worked efficiently in the national interest unless he has an adequate supply of petrol?

His case is ignored; apparently the Minister is not prepared to give it any attention. He has not consulted the House and I doubt if he has consulted any Deputies of his Party or any man who has a practical knowledge of these things. That is where I feel aggrieved about this matter. I appreciate the Minister's difficulties, but I do not think he is making things any easier by the attitude he has adopted. He submits certain proposals here and he persists in sticking to them and refuses to listen to what practical men have to say. None of us wants to be unreasonable. We realise that people cannot get petrol if it is not there, but we suggest that better use should be made of what is there.

Mr. Lemass

Every Deputy suggests the class of person who should get more petrol, but not one Deputy has suggested the class of person who should get less.

Mr. Hughes

Surely the Minister could listen to the suggestions that are made here and see if he could not make use of them later on? I realise that he cannot make use of them all.

Mr. Belton

Is not the production of food more our front line of defence than our little Army?

Dr. O'Higgins

I congratulate the Minister in so far as, with his usual debating agility, he made a very strong, vigorous and excellent reply in the main to a case that was never put up. I listened to the Minister a few nights ago taunting Deputies of the Labour Party with not even being clever in their misrepresentations. That is a charge that can never be levelled against the Minister. His misrepresentations have the brand of cuteness and cleverness. The Minister hung the greater part of his speech around a misrepresentation of my statement.

He started off jauntily to reply to an application by Deputy O'Higgins for more petrol for doctors as a class, for more petrol for county medical officers of health. Deputy O'Higgins was very careful not to make one or other demand. He merely sought information. He opened his statement by saying that he did not know what the petrol situation was, that he had no information from the Minister, but from outside he heard there was as much petrol coming into the country this year as came in last year, and he regretted the fact that the Minister published his Order without taking Parliament into his confidence, without giving them any picture of the situation, and he regretted the tendency to do this kind of business by regulation rather than by legislation.

Mr. Lemass

There were at least a dozen questions about this Order answered in the Dáil within the last month and before the Order came into force.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister came into the House this evening, having received notice of the motion, and having arranged not only the day but almost the exact minute the motion would be taken, to tell the House that he did not know how the estimated or available amount of petrol was going to be divided. There is no excuse for that kind of laziness. The case I put up to the Minister, in the main was this, that people who were privileged to use petrol, whatever that amount of petrol was, great or small, should be encouraged in any device they made use of to extend the use of that petrol and make it go further. The Minister's answer to that was that if one doctor had a Chrysler and a Ford 8, and another doctor had a Ford 8 and a motor-bicycle, by drawing petrol for the big vehicle and using it in the little vehicle they would be in a position of advantage over their neighbours in so far as they would be able to attend to more suffering human beings.

I have already pointed out to the Minister that, if they got only one allowance on one vehicle, and that calculated on a mathematical basis, everyone of them would utilise the heavier and more luxurious vehicle, the one it is more comfortable to ride in; and that, by the Minister's rigidity on that point, he was not saving one wine-glassful of petrol per annum, but was ensuring that less work would be done for the petrol available. I think that was a perfectly reasonable request to make to the Minister, particularly dealing with professions such as clergy and doctors and the third profession which attends to the diseases and sufferings in the animal life of the country. The only result of granting the application made would be a gallon of petrol in fine weather would do 100 miles of work instead of 30, and would bring relief to three times as many suffering humans or animals, or spiritual aid to three times as many people in danger of death.

The only answer to that is to classify members of those professions as if they were engaged in cut-throat business, one trying to get an advantage over the other. Let the Minister go to those engaged in those professions—in the veterinary business, the medical profession, clergymen and nurses—and he will find that that spirit is practically nonexistent. Sixty per cent. of the work done by any of them is done for nothing per year. That is the spirit on which those professions were founded, and that is the tradition around every one of them. For any man to lay it down from a Ministerial bench that they cannot use a light vehicle in fine weather because they would do more work in relation to those professions, is not nationally sound. I leave that point for the Minister and his colleagues to turn over in their own minds.

I did not want to discuss this in Dáil Eireann; I wanted it settled outside. It is the kind of appeal that would be more likely to succeed without any strip of carpet between us, but definitely it is the type of appeal which should be listened to. In the case of the man with the Chrysler and the man with the Ford car, there may be a stamp of wealth which may give one man a slight professional advantage over the other. Wealth always does that, and the man with wealth, when he exhausts his monthly supply of petrol, can quite easily hire vehicles and thereby have an advantage over the other. I would urge the Minister that his line in this crisis should be to encourage every user of petrol, no matter what cost or hardship to themselves, to use whatever type of vehicle will make each gallon do five times the amount of work for those professions. That would seem to be a headline for the Department of Supplies. There is no suggestion made, nor was there one made, that a person should get petrol for both vehicles but only for whatever vehicle he has been accustomed to get it for. If, in addition, a person buys a motor cycle or something of that kind during the fine weather, to extend the field or utility of the petrol, I would imagine he is doing the type of work that suits the Department of Supplies.

I did not ask for more petrol for anybody—either doctors or nurses. What I did say was that nurses whose contract and whose responsibility it was to visit the sick in their homes— those nurses are few in number: about two in each county—and those people who follow up the defective cases in the schools, people whose duty it is to visit tuberculous people in their homes, should not find it made illegal for them to use the road. Since the 1st May, it has been illegal for public health nurses to use the public roads in a motor vehicle.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Dr. O'Higgins

No disc was issued.

Mr. Lemass

They cannot use their own cars. The Deputy has said it was illegal to use the public roads in a motor vehicle.

Dr. O'Higgins

Well, to use their own cars. Surely the Minister will be reasonable. People of their modest salaries cannot hire cars at 1/- a mile. The public boards and authorities operating under the Minister's Government will allow 3d. a mile. These people are getting about £150-a-year salary and, by virtue of their appointments and as a condition of their appointments, they have purchased motor cars, have taxed and insured them, yet it is illegal for them to do their jobs. In every county there are three or four such officers—the county sanitary inspector and two or three nurses—who are paid to visit the sick in their homes and not for any other duty. At present they are drawing the salary and not allowed to do the work. That amounts to about £1,000 a year in every county. If they are not allowed to do their jobs, they should be seconded from them and given some work they could do. I believe it is a national mistake, no matter how scarce petrol is, that the conditions prevailing through lack of soap, hot water and fuel have meant a resultant increase in uncleanliness. It breaks down all that structure that has been diligently but slowly built up, since the opening part of this century, merely in order to save, as the outside, putting them at the high rate of a doctor, 16 gallons of petrol per month.

The Minister referred to the black market. Is it not obvious and is it not common sense that there could be no black market in petrol, if some persons or classes were not getting considerably too much petrol?

Mr. Lemass

That does not follow. People may have been getting petrol for essential purposes and not using it for those purposes, but there can be no question about the essentiality of the purpose that they got it for.

Dr. O'Higgins

The label they got it for?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Dr. O'Higgins

I agree. When the Minister challenged me on that point I agreed that it was bogus hackney owners, turf drawers, lorry men, etc. Surely, if the Minister has machinery to investigate the movements of a priest, so that the car will not bring him back to his residence at night, there should be enough machinery available to expose all these bogus hackney and lorry owners in the past and present. With a little co-operation between Government Departments and county council secretaries, it would have been possible, at any time in the past, to supply a list, in the counties, of cases of lorry owners and alleged hackney owners, which would at least bear looking in to. The sergeant of the Civic Guard in any parish would be able to tell the Minister whether so many cars, which were getting petrol as hackney cars, were being used for that purpose.

Mr. Lemass

No petrol went out to hackney owners unless the Civic Guard superintendent certified it.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am sorry, then, because I think there must be something faulty about the Guards in certain areas. The man in the street can put the Minister wise in certain areas. I know a little town where there is a man with eight hackney vehicles in his name, trucking in second-hand cars and taking out hackney licences, and there certainly is not work for two.

Mr. Lemass

He did not necessarily get petrol for all those. The hackney had to be registered as such on the 1st January, 1941.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am aware of that, and it paid him very well to get them registered. Whether it was subject to that certificate of the sergeant or not, there was certainly any amount of coupons on sale, they were more prevalent than postage stamps. People who had a job of work to do, reluctantly and against their will were driven in the past six months to purchasing those coupons. In some cases, I must say they were obliged by being given the coupons. The work done under the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, or supposed to have been done, could not have gone on since last February but for the coupons given or purchased in that way.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 19th May.