One fact, in my opinion, whether the work of the school is faulty or not, is that the children have a knowledge of Irish and that the schools cannot be blamed because progress has not been made outside the schools. Other agencies must be blamed for that. I do not think that when your commission of inquiry come to examine individual schools they could ever come to conclusions other than those which other commissions have come to based on general observations. They could discern certain advances or certain retrogressions. They could give us certain general indications of progress or otherwise, but in the schools they will visit they will see results which may range from poor or unfavourable up to results which are very excellent. I have no doubt whatever that you will get schools and teachers of varied degrees of proficiency when your commission go out to examine the position.
With regard to the policy of the Department generally, as I explained to the House on former occasions, our ultimate policy aims at the extension of continuation education until provision is made for the attendance of all young persons between 14 and 16 years of age at suitable courses of instruction.
Under Part V of the Vocational Education Act, young persons between 14 and 16 years of age in any area who are not in attendance at school can be compelled to attend courses of not more than 180 hours per annum. That provision has been in operation in Cork for the past three years. We have brought it into operation in Limerick and we are considering bringing it into operation in Waterford. I said last year that we intended to bring it into operation in Dublin and would make the necessary arrangements but that it would be impossible to state at what date the scheme might be brought into operation. A great deal of preliminary work would be necessary in a large centre such as Dublin. In the meantime, the Commission on Juvenile Unemployment has been sitting under the chairmanship of His Grace, the Archbishop of Dublin, and I understand that that commission has been looking into the educational as well as the social aspect of the problem. We have not been pressing forward with our arrangements pending the report of that commission. I believe that we shall probably receive from the report valuable guidance as to the lines on which we should proceed and the best direction to go in extending our system of education and in providing better post-primary facilities.
When Deputies tell me that we ought to do more, I take it that what they have in mind is that attendance at centres of continuation education should be made compulsory. I should like to refer them to what I said in my opening statement in dealing with a number of counties in which there is a constant absence of from 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. of the pupils even when those pupils should, according to law, be present at school. I am glad to hear from my friends, the farmer Deputies, that, if we extend compulsory continuation education in the rural areas, they feel it will be received with general acclamation. The figures regarding bad school attendance in so many counties which I have read out—this bad attendance has, unfortunately, persisted since the emergency—would seem to show that our people do not appreciate the education provided for them. If they did, we should, certainly, not have those serious absences in the areas which I mentioned. I hope the enforcing authorities will do more, if that be possible, to secure a better attendance. We have been surveying the position generally with a view to ascertaining the financial and other arrangements which would be necessary if a scheme of compulsory full-time education between the ages of 14 and 16 years was being introduced into the towns and cities. As regards the rural areas I do not wish to enter into all the points for and against or to debate at length the question of the school-leaving age. I merely want to say that, as most rural people will recognise, there is, obviously, a question as to whether extended education in rural areas will be compulsorily whole-time or merely part-time.
At any rate, we can congratulate ourselves in this country that, whatever plans are being made elsewhere for education in the near or distant future, we have taken a very practical step, which I always regarded as an essential preliminary to the adoption of compulsory continuation education, either part-time or whole-time—the introduction of a scheme of family allowances. I always believed that, preparatory to introducing any scheme to compel poor parents to keep their children at school over the age of 14 years, some allowance would have to be made to them. When the Family Allowances Bill was being considered, the Government decided that it would not be tied up with the question of school attendance. We were not going to make the payment of the allowances dependent on the attendance of the children at school. We definitely rejected that. The allowances are payable generally, and the school-leaving age has not, so far, been raised in a general way. In my opinion, the introduction of the scheme of family allowances was a necessary preliminary and enables the step for the raising of the school-leaving age to be taken more easily if it should be decided to take it.
Deputy Byrne referred to the provision of boots, fuel and books for the children at school, and he described the schools as "a disgrace to any Government". I do not know whether or not he was here when I was explaining, in my opening statement, that the management and control of the schools, including provision for their heating and cleaning, is a matter for the school managers. In so far as the Department of Supplies has been able to do so, it has, within its resources, provided the school managers in Dublin with the necessary fuel. I know that. Deputy Martin O'Sullivan referred to the size of classes in Dublin. In a number of schools we have those large classes. We have been looking into the question over a long period, and, if it were merely a question of providing additional teachers, the problem would be easily solved. That is not the position. In spite of the fact, to which Deputy Breathnach referred, that a very large number of children— probably several thousands—have been transferred under the housing schemes from the schools in the centre of the city to the outskirts, we still have a number of schools which have not accommodation for the children attending them. They have not sufficient rooms, and under no scheme of reorganisation of the teaching staff or for the provision of additional teachers, could we arrange that there would be sufficient accommodation for the classes. The accommodation is not there. The only alternative seems to be—and we are seriously considering it —restricting the enrolment in those schools, particularly in the junior classes.
Deputy Breathnach referred to the fact that young teachers were not very successful in passing the examination for the teastas dhá theangach. The examination for the teastas dhá theangach, which would enable the teacher to secure the qualification necessary to teach other subjects through Irish, was in the nature of a severe literary test so far as the training colleges were concerned. When a teacher had been trained and was engaged in teaching outside, the examination included a test in the practice of teaching. But, so far as students in the training colleges were concerned, it was really a test of a literary nature and did not give them, in my opinion, a fair opportunity. I do not say that it was not extremely disappointing we had not better results but, since last year, there has been a definite improvement in the numbers which have passed the examination. The standard is, naturally, a very high one. The inspectors do not wish, nor do I, any teacher to attempt to undertake teaching through Irish unless he is fully qualified. If the teastas dhá theangach is to be a criterion of his ability to teach through Irish, it must, obviously, be a qualification of high standard.
Deputy Norton stated that the teachers received a "stony rebuff" from me when they came to see me about the question of having their emoluments improved, in view of the increase in the cost of living. I do not think Deputy Norton's description, in his rhetorical manner, of my "stony rebuff" is an accurate description of what took place. I explained to the teachers, as I explained to the Dáil that since the emergency the Government has followed a certain policy with regard to increases in emoluments. If I asked the Government to depart from that policy in regard to teachers, then it must be departed from in the case of civil servants, guards, and other public servants. I hope that it may be possible to do more for the teachers, but I suggest that it is quite inaccurate to say that there was any lack of interest on my part. I explained the policy fully to the teachers, and told them that they were not likely to be successful when I made representations to the Government, in view of the feeling the Government had, to adhere to their declared policy. That is the position.
As regards teachers' pensions, I explained last year that the Government feel that if they can do more for those in their direct or indirect employment at the present time, who are in the category of public servants, they should have first claim upon them. It is not that the Government feels hard-hearted, or does not realise the position of teachers who are on very small pensions. It is not a situation that should not arouse their compassion. The fact is that these teachers are on pensions in the ordinary way, and we cannot deal with them, apart from the whole class of pensioned public servants generally. If I approach the Minister for Finance again on the matter I am sure I will be told that it would be quite impossible to deal with one particular class of pensions without raising the whole issue of whether pensioned officers are not to receive an emergency bonus, somewhat similar to that which those in employment had received. That is going to be a rather big financial item. A good many of the teachers on small pensions were junior assistant mistresses or lay assistants, and did not come into the pension scheme at all until 1934. A certain number of them I must say are, probably, teachers who had not very long service, but had retired for disablement or for other reasons. I do not contend for a moment that the pensions they are receiving in a great many cases are anything like what one would like to give them, if these matters could be ruled entirely by our natural feelings, or what we would like to do as distinct from what we can do, having regard to the other obligations on the National Exchequer.
On the question of the retirement of women teachers at 60, I hope that it may be possible, with the new measures we have had to take to restrict further recruitment of young teachers, perhaps in the not too distant future, to relax that rule. If it is at all possible I should like to do so. I could not at present, having regard to the state of unemployment amongst young teachers, relax the rule further than in the cases which Deputies know of, genuine cases of hardship, where there was no other income for the family except that of the woman teacher, and where there were children at school, severe sickness, or big debts to be liquidated.
I cannot hold out any hope to Deputy Lynch, in spite of the fact that I would be delighted to give him whatever he asked for in this House, he has such a persuasive and nice manner in making a case. I should like very much to meet him in regard to the question of allowing those girls who were in training or in preparatory colleges, when we made the announcement that women teachers would after a certain date have to retire on marriage. The Deputy has shown the danger of making any concession whatever. A small concession which was given to junior assistant mistresses in the same connection is now being used to try to lever a further concession. We must have finality somewhere. I regret to have to say to the Dáil quite definitely, and, I hope, finally that I do not intend to relax that rule any further. We will have to stand by that. It was not introduced for financial reasons but on general social grounds.
Deputy Hughes and other Deputies referred to the question of an agricultural bias in the schools. We had all that out last year and the position is as the Taoiseach and I explained to the Dáil more than once. If we expect our teachers to give our pupils in national schools the rudiments necessary in reading, writing and in the speaking of two languages, and to have a foundation in arithmetical knowledge, and in addition have some knowledge of elementary history and geography, particularly the history and geography of their own country, we are giving the teachers quite a large amount to do. I do not think it would be reasonable or fair to ask them to do more. Deputy Halliden knows from his experience in the agricultural, as well as in the educational sphere, that if teachers are countrymen and are interested in country things, they can use these as a background and as an illustration for a great deal of the work of the schools. When they are doing arithmetic, they can talk about the sugar content of beet or the results of cow-testing associations where they still exist. Teachers can get any number of practical illustrations which, if they are really interested, will be of far more moment, coming from personal interest than anything we might ask them to do through official instructions. The fundamentals in rural schools, and the basis of learning must be the same as in the city schools. It is all right to say that we should have different programmes, but after all fundamentals must be the same.
As Deputy Donnellan reminded us, people will try naturally to advance their children by giving them the best possible education, so that they may get a better position in the world, perhaps, than their parents had. We have no fault to find with that, but in my opinion it is the simple explanation of that situation. I do not think that Deputy M. O'Sullivan was right in alleging that students could become qualified as teachers without qualifying in English or in mathematics. It is quite true that in order to secure honours in the leaving certificate examination it is not necessary for a candidate to take English, but I think we may take it that, even those candidates who have gone through the preparatory colleges, have to pass in the leaving certificate in English and mathematics, as well as getting honours in the examination as a whole.
We are looking into the question of whether it may not be possible to pay salaries more promptly, or, at any rate, make more prompt payment of salaries to lower paid teachers. The question of closing the Dublin or other schools on the same days for holidays is really a matter for the managers. In that connection I may mention that we are interested in seeing, particularly as long as the present severe restrictions in electricity and fuel last in towns and cities—it may be more difficult in rural areas—that children will be allowed home at the same time for the mid-day interval, so that they may have lunch together at home.
The provision of boots and school meals are really questions for the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. I hope that he may be able to do more to help the poor children, particularly in the larger centres like Dublin. Deputy Dillon referred to the new place of detention, when referring to orphans, and the necessity for trying to have orphans boarded out with respectable families. The number of orphan children in industrial schools would only be about .2 per cent. The new place of detention at Glasnevin is the building which had been used as part of the preparatory college where the pupils and staff lived for some time. The entire house is not in use. It is roomy. The dormitory and dining room are spacious, and the accommodation generally is, in my opinion—I have been there—suitable. It would not be possible to have a clinic in connection with juvenile delinquency there, because these boys are only kept there on remand from one court to another. That a clinic should be maintained there, that would necessitate that these boys would be kept under supervision for a longer period of time. Normally the period of detention is a week or two. I think that the matter of clinics will be dealt with in another way. In any case, the question of having a clinical examination in these cases would really come more appropriately under the Department of Justice, because that is the Department that should make the necessary arrangements to facilitate the district justices.
Deputy Dillon raised the question of the Institute of Higher Studies and of certain restrictions that have been placed on the members of the staff in the publication of works. I do not intend to set another bad precedent today which, I think, I would be doing if I were to go into the work of the institute here. I think that we ought to leave these matters to the institute and its director, the council and governing boards and committees, to thresh them out. I do not think that the Dáil is a suitable place to do that. Neither do I think that it would be in the interests either of the institute or of the parties in whom Deputy Dillon may be interested, to thresh out these questions here. Deputies know very well that we cannot have the necessary knowledge of all the facts and circumstances, and that this is not the appropriate body to deal with such matters.
The question of the appointment of the chief inspector in the technical instruction branch of my Department was also raised. As the Ceann Comhairle pointed out, it was rather a precedent that the appointment or promotion of a civil servant should be raised in this way. I appointed the officer in question to the position that he now holds. It is my responsibility and that is all I have to say in regard to it. I regard him as the best and most suitable man for the position.