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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 15 Feb 1946

Vol. 99 No. 9

Private Deputies' Business. - Ground Rents—Motion.

Debate resumed on following motion:—
That, in the opinion of Dáil Eireann, the Government should, without delay, introduce proposals for legislation enabling the owners of dwelling-houses and business premises in cities, towns and villages to purchase on equitable terms the ground rents to which such houses and premises are subject.—(Deputies Norton and Keyes.)

This problem of ground rents has been the subject of agitation, not merely in the country but in this House, at various times during the past 20 years.

There were some times during that period when the flame of agitation on the subject burned whiter than at other times. But, no matter what the colour of the flame was, I think it will be acknowledged by all that there was always a flame there representative of the desire on the part of leaseholders to secure an amelioration of the conditions to which they were subject under our ground rent legislation. I do not think anybody who is conversant with the problem will deny that all during that period there was a strong demand on the part of the leaseholders that there should be equitable treatment in respect of the leases which they held. The very fact that over a long period of years that agitation has been sustained is evidence that leaseholders generally recognise that they have a sense of grievance to which they have called the attention of the community from time to time and from which they have sought relief in this House. The agitation for remedial legislation to ease the lot of leaseholders culminated in 1931 in the enactment of the Landlord and Tenant Act. That Act was offered to the Legislature and to the country as a piece of legislation calculated to ease the burden of the town tenants and to give urban dwellers a greater measure of security against landlords than they had before.

Prior to the introduction of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931, it was a very common experience—and numerous instances in support of that can be quoted—to find ground landlords increasing ground rents on the expiration of lease from £10 to £50. Prior to 1931, is was a fairly general experience to find ground rents increased by 200, 300, 400 and 500 per cent. It was urged that under the 1931 Act that state of affairs would be brought to an end, especially by the enactment of Section 48 of that Act. But the unfortunate leaseholders were not long in realising that the 1931 Act had many imperfections and that it was a distinctly unsatisfactory Act in many respects so far as they were concerned. In particular, Section 48 of the Act, which was thought to hold out a promise of relief so far as leaseholders were concerned, in fact put the shackles of exploitation probably more firmly on leaseholders than they were before and gave statutory authority to the exploitation which was possible under the Act.

Let us take an example of what Section 48 permitted. If we go back to the original leases, we find that in many cases the site, which had no more than a prairie or agricultural value, was let to a leaseholder without any asset thereon. In many cases there were no roads, no sewerage, no water, probably no lights, and very frequently no transport. It was against a background of that kind that the site was let to the leaseholder in many instances. Having secured the site, the leaseholder then proceeded to erect a house upon it, possibly to erect a garage, possibly to erect out-offices, and generally to beautify the site in order to make his home as attractive as possible. The social authority provided roads, sewerage and water, transport companies provided transport and the State, through the Electricity Supply Board, provided light, with the result that what was originally a prairie site, or what could be described as an agricultural site, was, by the energy of the tenant and his capital on the one hand and the co-operation of the local authority, the transport company and the electricity undertaking on the other hand, transformed into an urbanised site.

A situation was created, therefore, in which that original site had been modernised and enormously improved by the erection thereon of assets and the provision of amenities at the public and State expense. The original ground landlord, having let a prairie or agricultural site, finally discovered that, through the energy of others and the expenditure of the capital of individuals and the community generally, he was now the ground landlord, not of a piece of prairie land, but of an urbanised site containing assets which he had never dreamed of when the site was originally let. Now, having let a piece of barren land to a tenant, the exercise of the tenant's energies and the utilisation of his capital, the use of the powers of local authorities and the State, has resulted in a very valuable piece of property being built up on that site, the lease of which will, in due course, expire.

When the lease expired, the landlord had his rights under the 1931 Act and the tenant was supposed to have protection under the 1931 Act. But what rights had the tenant got? This can best be seen by contrasting the tenant's position with the rights the landlord got under that Act. Section 48 provided that the landlord could go into court on the expiration of a lease —if he could not drive a harder bargain privately with the tenant — and could get, as a new lease, as the new rent for the site, 25 per cent. of the highest competitive price for the land, for the house, for the premises and for the amenities. Because of the assets which the tenant, the State, and the local authority had provided, the landlord could ask the court to give him a rent which was 25 per cent. of the highest competitive rent appropriate to that land and to all the assets on it. Those were the rights which the ground landlord got under Section 48 of the 1931 Act. What the State did in 1931 was to say to the ground landlord: "You may let this piece of prairie or agricultural land at a low rent, if you like, but when the lease expires you can go into court and get 25 per cent. of the highest competitive rent, not of your original land but of all the capital, all the energy, and all the creative work put into the erection of assets on that land by the individual leaseholder, by the State and by the local authority." In other words, the landlord was permitted to levy a tribute on the capital and energy of the leaseholder, on the money expended by the local authority in providing public services, on the activities of the State through the Electricity Supply Board in providing light, and also on the amenities provided by transport undertakings.

Not only was the landlord empowered to get 25 per cent. of that enhanced rent of the site, but in addition he was empowered to compel the leaseholder to reconstruct or to improve the premises to the extent of any sum determined by the court. That is to say, not satisfied with getting that 25 per cent. of the substantially enhanced value of the site, he could also require the tenant to expend a few hundred pounds in improving the dwelling, as if the dwelling were in the ownership of the ground landlord instead of being the result of the expenditure of capital and energy by the tenant. If the Minister goes to the trouble to look this matter up—I do not wish to detain the House unduly by going into it now—he will find, and I have found, that numerous instances can be quoted to show that these unjust levies, in the form of higher ground rents and in the form of expenditure on the repair and renovation of houses, were shamefacedly demanded by landlords as a condition of the renewal of leases.

Our 1931 legislation, therefore, gave the ground landlord, who contributed nothing whatever to the improved value of the site, the protection of the law and permitted him to go into court to rake off, in the form of a substantially higher rent and the prospect of a still substantially higher rent by compelling the tenant to expend an additional sum in improving the dwellinghouse, a tribute to which he was in no way entitled, a tribute which was not based on any expenditure of energy or money by him, but was due to the capital and energy of the tenant and the creative activities of the State and the local authorities.

I would like somebody in this House to say on what grounds we can justify giving a site landlord, who lets a bare, bald, undeveloped site a rent related, not to the value of the site when he let it but to the expenditure on it by the tenant and others. If there has been any increase in the value of that land between the time it was let originally as a site for a building and the time at which the lease was due for renewal, surely nobody will contend that the landlord was in any way responsible for that increased value. It has been created by agencies entirely apart from the original ground landlord. The landlord least of all has any claim whatever to a portion of the increased letting value of that property. Whilst he is ever eager to secure a substantial increase in ground rents, on the expiration of leases, we find that he still continues to pay rates at an agricultural rate on the original agricultural land, though he collects his ground rent on the site as enhanced through the activities of the tenant and others, which have transformed it into an urbanised site, commanding urban valuations for ground rent purposes and commanding, in many cases, city valuations for ground rent purposes.

It is because excesses of that kind have been in existence and have continued so long with varying degrees of hardship, but always degrees of hardship on leaseholders, that there has been a demand in the country, and among various Parties in this House, for legislation to deal with this evil. I think Deputy Corry, with that freedom which, I think, is charming for a person in the Fianna Fáil Party to be allowed to exercise, voiced the real feeling of the ordinary members of the Fianna Fáil Party on this matter the other night.

They all have that freedom.

Then the sooner you exercise your rights, the sooner you will not lose them.

Deputy O'Connor exercised the same right.

I think he will see the light yet.

No, I think not.

Deputy O'Connor said he was in favour of an amendment of that section.

A very pious expression, indeed. I have read it.

I hope you have learned something from it.

I imagine that Deputy Blaney, with Carndonagh as his background, if he intervenes in this debate, will also probably support the demand for legislation, and I imagine that if a former Minister for Justice, Mr. Justice Geoghegan, could be consulted privately on this matter, or could be brought into the House, he would say, as he said when he spoke to Deputy Corry about the ground rents in Cobh, that he always had in mind the pious intention of introducing legislation in order to deal with this evil.

Why did you not put that into the motion?

I will let you draft a better motion and I will support it. I think there is a considerable demand in the House—and there is widespread sympathy outside the House—to deal with this problem of the town tenants, to make sure that the tenants in the urban areas get the same treatment as the State recognise the farmers must get against the rack-renting landlords in the rural areas.

If we can essay the task of purchasing land in this country and making farmers entirely the owners of their own lands, is there any reason in logic, or any difficulty in administration, why we should not attempt a solution of a similar problem in urban areas? Is there any reason why we should not immediately seek to deal with the grosser abuses which operate under the ground rent system?

The tenants' claim in this matter is a reasonable one. Their agitation has been conducted with decorum and their claim has been put in a calm and reasonable manner. Their appeal has been to reason but, unfortunately, there has been very little reciprocation of that reason from the Government Benches. The tenants' claim is that (1) they want stability of ground rent; (2) they want fair rent tribunals to function under equitable legislation; and (3) they want, if they so desire, the right to be able to enforce at law what a fair rent tribunal determines to be an equitable purchase price. In other words, the tenant says to the Legislature: "(1) You ought to stabilise ground rents and prevent this racketeering in ground rents; (2) you ought to constitute a fair rent tribunal to operate under an equitable form of legislation—and Section 48 of the 1931 Act is a negation of equitable legislation; and (3) where we want to purchase the sites we should be entitled to do that after a fair rent tribunal has determined what is an equitable basis of purchase."

The landlords oppose each of these three claims because they realise that to concede any of the claims would amount to curbing their rapacity and preventing them from getting in future that ransom which they have been getting in the form of ground rents. Is there anything unreasonable in the tenants' demand? They say: "Stabilise the ground rents; stop the trafficking in ground rents." This House has already recognised the necessity for doing that in respect of ordinary rents whereby, under statutory law and Emergency Powers Orders, it has stabilised the level of ordinary rents. If the Legislature recognise the necessity for stabilising ordinary rents of houses which may be erected by landlords, surely there is a still greater case for stabilising ground rents, rents on sites which have been enormously enhanced, not by the landlord, but by the dwellinghouse owners and into the improved value of which the landlord has put no contribution whatever. The tenants ask for a fair rent tribunal.

In recent rent legislation we have provided a better form and an easier method of access to the courts so far as ordinary tenants, who feel they are overcharged, are concerned, and the trend of our legislation in respect of the ordinary house tenant has been to provide him with a greater measure of protection against the rapacity of landlords. Is there anything unreasonable in town tenants, who are leaseholders, asking that a fair rent tribunal should be established for the purpose of giving the leaseholder the same right of access to tribunals functioning under equitable legislation as has been given to the rent payer who is the tenant of a rural dwelling? The third claim of the leaseholders is that equitable purchasing terms should be devised.

Of course, nobody can get equitable purchasing terms so long as the present legislation governing ground rents continues. When the agitation for the purchase of ground rents is keen, the value of the ground rents decreases on the market. When the Minister for Justice makes a statement to the effect that the Government do not propose to introduce any legislation to interfere with ground rents, the rents rocket high again. If the Minister were to say to-day that the Government intended to introduce legislation to grapple with the scandal of ground rents, I have no doubt the rents would come down substantially in value and the tenants would be able to negotiate an equitable agreement with their landlords tomorrow. But the ground landlord feels that this system is continuous and is so old and hoary and so essential a part of our past vicious ground rent legislation that he is sufficiently entrenched to be able to exact any tribute he likes from those who are in his clutches to the extent that they are holders of leases from him.

The tenants demand that there should be equitable purchase terms devised. They do not claim that they should devise these terms themselves and they do not claim that these terms should be arbitrarily decided on. They are quite satisfied to have these terms determined by a fair rent tribunal to which the landlord and the tenant will have access, and if they desire to proceed with the purchase of the ground rents they should be empowered to enforce the purchase terms by law, it having been previously conceded that the purchase terms ought to be equitable, necessary steps to ensure that being taken by the establishment of a fair rents tribunal. If we permit the tenant of a labourer's cottage to purchase his house and his land under legislation, and if we permit the farmer to purchase his land, not merely to pay a tribute in perpetuity but to purchase his land outright, surely we ought to concede to town tenants the right to purchase their lands and holdings in entirety? We have extended a similar right to the other classes.

I believe that if the Minister would to-day recognise the necessity for stabilising ground rents, if he would institute a standstill Order which would prevent ground rents from rising in existing circumstances, it would be possible for many leaseholders to negotiate with their ground landlords, and in that way, merely by the execution of such an Order, an equitable method of purchase between the tenant and the ground landlord would be devised; but so long as ground landlords feel that they can carry on the existing exploitation without any interference by the State, so long will it continue to be difficult for the tenant to induce such ground landlords to deal with them on an equitable basis. If the Minister, therefore, could see his way to stabilise existing ground rents and to say that there will be no permitted increase in existing ground rents, many tenants could secure equitable terms from their landlords. There is, of course, no case whatever for permitting ground landlords to get any increase in their rents, because nothing they have done to the site has involved them in additional expenditure since the site was originally let.

This motion seeks to secure consideration of this problem from the leaseholders' point of view by the Government. It seeks to direct attention to the grievances from which leaseholders suffer and to create a public opinion which, we hope, will induce the Government to recognise that there is a problem to be dealt with and that the problem is not going to be any easier of solution by the Government's deciding not to grapple with it at this stage. The Minister and many members of his Party must be aware of the grievances from which leaseholders suffer, and the sum total of all that evidence ought to be sufficient to convince him of the necessity for giving this matter active attention and for the introduction of proposals for legislation designed to remedy these grievances.

The motion says that tenants ought to get an opportunity of purchasing their leases on equitable terms. They urge that, in the meantime, ground rents should be stabilised to prevent further exploitation and that, in addition, they should have access to a fair rent tribunal operating under equitable legislation. It may be true, of course, that this problem has become so deep-seated that any interference with it will cause hardship to some people.

It may be said that some people have recently purchased ground rents at a high price and that it would be unfair to dispossess them of them now. This motion says that whoever is dispossessed of ground rents ought to be dispossessed on a basis of some equitable arrangements which recognise the peculiarities of the case; but there is certainly no case to-day for permitting ground landlords, many of whom received their present lands as gifts from an alien authority, to charge ground rents which represent probably 1,000 per cent. increase on the original rents charged for these properties.

It may be, as I said, that certain difficulties will arise, that certain difficulties will have to be faced in grappling with the problem and certain provision to deal with hard cases made in respect of any legislation introduced, but if people have benefited in the past by being able to inflict injustices on leaseholders, by exacting high ground rents from them and by threatening to extract still higher ground rents in future, it is no reason why this House should permit these injustices to continue. I recommend the motion to the House, and I trust that the Minister will at least be able to say that the Government will examine the problem with a view to introducing the necessary legislation.

This ground rent problem is very acute in one portion of my constituency. I have been invited to, and have attended, a number of meetings in Dun Laoghaire, and I think the problem in Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock and Dalkey is worse than in any other part of the country. One case in particular was cited to me in Dun Laoghaire of a man who got a 99 years' lease of a piece of slobland for 15/-. He was an enterprising carpenter and he built 12 houses. When the lease fell in—it was prior to the 1931 Act—the landlord acquired all the property. Another thing they are doing in Dun Laoghaire on the Lord Longford and De Vesci estates is dictating to the leaseholders the way in which they are to build their houses and to repair their houses. There are numerous instances which I could quote but I do not propose to take up the time of the House in doing so.

From my experience of Dun Laoghaire, the tenants there are very hard hit and I do not know that there is any case as bad in the country. When the leases of some of the buildings in the main street of Dun Laoghaire, George's Street, fell in some years ago, they actually dictated to the business people the type of business house they should build. The business people objected, saying that it would not suit their business to build that type of house, but the landlord insisted they should build them in a certain way, contrary to the wishes of the leaseholders, and then, of course, increased the rent. In Dun Laoghaire also when a lease falls in, they say, even though a man may have spent a good deal of money on a house and brought it into fairly good repair: "We cannot renew the lease, unless you spend so much money on the house." It is often beyond the means of the man to do so and the house may be in a fairly reasonable state of repair, but the landlord's agents insist that, unless they carry out these repairs, the house will be taken from them, although they have had the House for probably 50 or 60 years. I know how sympathetic the Minister is and I realise that I am pushing an open door in speaking on this point.

The Deputy should have a look at the open door. The frown would pull the building down.

The Deputy's sight may not be too good.

Is it not better have the open door? These are some of the points that I wanted to make in backing up this motion. If I wanted to go further into the matter I could give numerous other instances. I think that a fair rent tribunal, especially in the case of leaseholders like Lord Longford and the De Vesci Estate, is most desirable, because I feel that the tenants concerned are not being treated fairly. It has also been insinuated that Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1939, has been misinterpreted by some landlords to their own advantage. In some recent speeches it has been suggested to me that they have not renewed leases for 99 years. I am not in a position to substantiate that statement: that they only renew leases for 20 or 25 years. and in that way keep piling on the 25 per cent. If that were so it would be a very serious matter. I have been told that, but I doubt it. At any rate, it is only fair that the position of these leaseholders should be considered. I am sure that the Minister will seriously consider the points that I have put to him, and that, in opposing my friend, Deputy McGilligan, he will keep the door open.

The Deputy is lucky if he does.

I think that the immensity of this problem was brought home to us very forcibly by Deputy Davin when he stated that two ground landlords in the Dun Laoghaire area are drawing a revenue of £150,000 from their ground rents. He then made the astonishing comparison that the total rates collectable in that area only amount to £100,000. I think, considering the number of ground landlords there are throughout the country, that our famous assets, even if they were realisable and convertible, would not be able to finance a purchase scheme. This motion, I think, falls very short of a demand for complete purchase. My own opinion is that, if the Government went part of the way and put forward just and reasonable proposals, the demand made in the motion would be met pretty well. As chairman of the association, I have been associated with the leaseholders' movement for a number of years and am still very interested in it, although my views have changed as I will show later. I think that if we had a fair rents tribunal to make a determination between the claims of a ground landlord and a tenant, a tribunal that would give a fair ruling, we would be going very far towards satisfying the demands of leaseholders Very often, there is a tremendous difference between the claims and rights of one tenant as compared with those of another.

You have the tenant who maintains his property well and leaves it a valuable thing to his landlord at the expiration of a lease. You have another tenant who, through years of neglect of the property, leaves it rather a liability than an asset on the landlord's hands at the termination of the lease, and yet, under the existing law, the landlord can treat the two tenants in exactly the same way. It is common knowledge that the temptation is there for the unscrupulous ground landlord to impose such terms on the good tenant as will force him to surrender his lease, whereas he is tempted to give easier terms to the bad tenant who, as I have said, leaves the property in such a condition that it is rather a liability than an asset to the ground landlord. The latter seems to do that in the hope of securing a continuity of income from the bad tenant, and for that reason he gives him better terms than he does to the really good tenant. I think there is something very unfair in that. Cases of that kind would offer big scope to a fair rents tribunal to hold the scales evenly. I think that all that is asked for in this motion is the right on the part of the tenant, who is able to do so, to purchase on just and fair terms. That does not require the raising of a capital sum on the part of the Government or anybody else.

A favourite argument against doing anything in this matter of ground rents is the widow argument. I have heard is brought forward again and again. I think it is the most ridiculous argument that could be brought forward. You have, of course, the case of the widow who may be living on the income derived from ground rents, but what of the widow of the poor fellow who has spent his whole life saving up laboriously week after week in order to be able to purchase his own house. He dies and leaves his widow at the mercy of the ground landlord. In five or ten years' time, if she cannot carry out the exacting terms imposed by the landlord, she can be thrown out on the roadside. There are far more widows of that type than there are of the other type, so that, as I have said, the argument used about widows is ridiculous.

I have one fear as regards any attempt that may be made to settle this ground rents problem, and it is this: it is right, of course, that the Government, or the State, should have revenue from land, and particularly from urban land, but what I fear may be done at some future date is that a ground tax may be imposed in lieu of ground rents. I hope that will never be done because, bad and all as the ground rent system is, there is a certain stability about it, and even a certain amount of security for the tenant, whereas if a ground tax were imposed I am afraid that the exigencies of the Budget from year to year might put that tax into a position somewhat comparable to that which obtain in the case of rates.

Those of us who know what the rates were in this city 40 years ago and what they are to-day look forward rather with fear and trembling to what might happen if ground rents were altogether abolished and a ground tax imposed. We might find the tenant with something around his neck much more uncomfortable and much heavier to bear than even the present ground rents. That consideration has left me rather slow to advocate the complete abolition of ground rents. I do think it is a thing that any Government should approach very cautiously and I would recommend moving slowly in the matter. At the same time, there are injustices there and something should be done to meet these injustices. I would recommend the two points—first of all, the establishment of a fair rents tribunal and, secondly, to award the right to purchase to a tenant who is able and willing to do so, on just and fair terms. The third thing that I think could be looked to would be the question of the creation of new ground rents. The creation of new ground rents should be made impossible because it holds up building operations and is bad for the country generally. In that connection I think something drastic might be done. These are the three points I should like to emphasise. To be candid, I do not think the motion is in any way unreasonable. I think the motion would be quite well satisfied and quite well met if the three points that I propose were conceded.

Deputy McGilligan rose.

This debate would conclude at half-past one, in the ordinary way, but there is a feeling that it should be continued to two o'clock. To do that it would be necessary to have the unanimous consent of the House to the suspension of Standing Orders.

What is going to fill the gap if we do not have a continuance of this debate?

What about Government business coming on at half-past one?

Government business may not be taken on Friday from 12 to two o'clock unless there is a motion made to take it.

Would the Chair be kind enough to quote the Standing Order?

Order No. 80 is the Standing Order regulating the business generally. Order No. 83 is the Standing Order governing the limitation of time for Private Deputies' motions.

I am talking of the one which says no Government business can be taken between 12 and two on Friday.

Unless there is a motion made. Will the House agree to carry on to two o'clock?

If it is necessary, in order to facilitate other Deputies who want to speak, I am prepared to put up with five minutes.

Mr. Boland

If I could get away with five minutes I would, but I am afraid it will take me more than that.

The Minister said he wanted 20 minutes.

Mr. Boland

I thought it would probably take me that.

Take it now.

Mr. Boland

I should like to hear Deputy McGilligan. It would be too bad not to hear him.

If there is a division, it must be taken before two o'clock.

I do not believe that last threat will sound ominous to anybody here because it is quite clear that no division is required in this matter. All the Deputies who have spoken have expressed themselves in favour of the motion. In fact, one of the Minister's own Deputies says it is such a mild does that he need not even make a wry face swallowing it. We look forward to seeing what grimaces he does put on and can decide for ourselves what is the cause of them. Deputy Burke is fascinated by the thought that he is pushing an open door. If I am any reader of expressions, the Minister is not just so clear about that. I must say this, that all the speeches that have been made have emphasised that it is a very mild motion. Therefore, there is all the more reason why it should be accepted. I consider that it ties the Government to one thing only, that if they accept it they do promise that, in their interpretation of whatever the phrase "without delay" may mean, they will introduce legislative proposals and the aim of these proposals will be to enable the purchase-out of the ground landlord. The other thing the motion asks for is that it shall be done "on equitable terms". I am looking forward to that day when we see the Government's view of "equitable terms". That will be the crux and the test of the whole matter.

Deputy Butler, who has made quite an appreciative speech on the motion, has shown the hardships that he thinks do occur in certain places and Deputy Burke has indicated the hardships in the three areas he has brought under special notice. Deputies O'Connor and de Valera, I believe, demand this motion with faint prise by more or less saying it was a thing they could accept but, of course, it was not drastic enough for one of them and not sufficiently clarified for the other. In any event, they both stood in on the line of saying it puts the Government somewhere along the line towards tackling the old-time problem of the ground landlord.

We have, of course, a new situation in the last five years. Impelled by their foresight of what was likely to happen after the war, the British Government have set up at least three Commissions to deal with this whole matter of the increase in value of urban sites due in no way at all to the efforts of the owner, that is to say, of the landlord, but due to the fact that towns were spreading out. What they call the "over-spilling" situation was there. On account of the amenities of the towns and cities being brought out to prairie or agricultural land, values were being increased. There were three reports. I think they are called by the names of the Barlowe Report, the Scott Report and the Uthwatt Report. The one thing all three have agreed upon is what is being asked for here, namely, that warning should be given—I do not think it has gone any further than that—that if and when they come to buy out, or to allow the buying out of the ground in the neighbourhood of cities, the value will be fixed at the pre—1939 rate. That is what is being asked for here.

There are, of course, certain conflicting views held in England as to how they are going to equate what they call the demand that they will make upon people whose property is bettered and how they will pay that back to people who have suffered by the impact of these conditions of out—purchase, but there is no question whatever that England, the home of Feudalism, has accepted that the ground landlord is going to be a thing of the past. That was done, not under the auspices of the present Government, but in the days of a Coalition Government, when it cannot be said that there was any lack of representation of the old-time landlord interest. We are still lagging behind.

One part of this matter, that is to say, the rents that were charged to occupying tenants, was dealt with in Rent Acts and a certain approach was made to other matters in the 1931 Act. It has been criticised that Section 48 is far from appropriate to the present time and it cannot be said that it is not far from appropriate. Times have moved along since then and better ideas have grown up about this. Is there anybody in this House who requires any argument to convince him as to the necessity for enabling people to purchase out such an important matter as the site upon which their home stands? It is in accordance with every recent pronouncement that I have been able to read coming from the Vatican. It is certainly in accordance with every pronouncement that I have been able to read coming from any modern economist. The idea that is spreading, throughout the world, gaining ground every day, is the idea of distributed property and one of the things that stand in the forefront in the view of any economist or sociologist who stands for that particular advance is that the people should be enabled to own their homes.

Deputy Butler has dragged in the hoary old matter, which is not without its merits, of the widow who may be found to be a landlord. Of course, if it gets abroad in this country that there is going to be any special favouritism shown to widows just because they are landlords there will be a new occupation for widows in this country; they will be made a substitute for the landlords all over the place. In any event, hard cases— individual cases—can be met. This motion certainly is wide enough to allow for all sorts of different attitudes towards individual cases of hardship on "equitable terms". In any event, if there are cases of hardship—for we have the example of Deputy O'Connor in connection with the Rent Restrictions Act—it is always possible for a person to make his approach to a Minister and to get certain exemptions.

What is the Deputy referring to?

I am referring to the Rent Restrictions Act. The Deputy should convince the Minister that certain property should be excluded.

Do you remember that the Minister stated that others had also approached him?

I am not saying that they did not.

Mr. Boland

Amongst others. He wants to forget that.

The Deputy and others.

Mr. Boland

Bring the others in and it will sound better.

May I put them in the forefront? Let them huddle about and make their case in connection with ground landlords. Deputy Butler will, apparently, take up the cudgels for them. Could we recognise that there may be a case to be met? The individual case can be met. If it cannot be met under the scheme to purchase ground rents, it can be met in some other way. A certain injustice has been done in respect of people who may hereafter be bought out compulsorily by having permitted them to increase the rents they charged within the past four or five years. Under the Emergency Powers Order, I think they can say they were specially favoured. There are restrictions with regard to rent on those who own houses and are going to let them.

There are restrictions on the money that people are entitled to earn, but ground landlords are left free. I think they can complain afterwards that they thought they were in a special position. When people get accustomed to a particular line of life, they are all the more astonished by an announcement in the end that they are to be treated on the same footing as other people. I suggest that there is nothing in the motion that people can civil at except that the Minister will find himself in the position that he will be obliged to legislate. What is he obliged to legislate about? To permit buying out. That is not a new idea. It has been talked of for many years. We have the great example of the way in which rural landlords were treated in this country. We have any amount of examples, and those who are owners of property must have seen by the shadow over their class in England that it would not be long until the same shadow fell on the same people here. They have got sufficient notice.

The Minister is merely asked to give effect by legislation to that. This is one of the last and worst relics of the old feudal system. The Minister is asked merely to accept the principle. Possibly, the motion does not face some of the difficulties of the situation. The Minister is only asked to pledge himself to legislation, the principle of which is the buying out of ground rents on whatever terms are equitable. The machinery suggested is that courts should be set up. If independent tribunals are set up to determine the purchase price, or the number of years of purchase, I do not see how anybody can consider that he is being unfairly treated. The test will come when we get the views of the Government as to what are equitable terms. May I suggest that there is a special problem here? Surely sufficient case has been made for the Minister to say: "We will not allow the creation of any further ground rents". I suggest the way to do that is by simply passing legislation which would say that, in the event of any ground landlord desiring to sell, the occupying tenant should have first right of purchase. That is a very simple matter to arrange. It will prevent the creation of further ground landlord interests, unless the tenant is not in a position to purchase his particular property. I do not say that that at all meets the problem, because the demand that will be put on the tenant may be such that he could not buy. In any event, it gives him first chance if he can buy, and he can prevent someone else being put in on him as a substitute ground landlord.

That, I suggest, is a matter that should be done right away. It impacts in no way upon anybody's interest because, for the time being, it would be a free market. The ground landlord would simply say "I am selling" or "I am putting up for auction" and I think the price will be so much. If it goes to the point of a clash between some other person and the tenant who wants to become his own landlord, then the tenant should get the preference. The more this motion is minimised, the less reason there is for objecting to it.

I shall commence with the point made by Deputy McGilligan. His suggestion about not allowing new ground rents to be created would have a very deleterious effect on building operations. I know of my own knowledge cases in which builders are erecting houses for sale and building societies are making loans and, if the person for whom the house is intended cannot get the whole of the money, an annuity is put on the property in the form of a ground rent. That is quite common, so that the matter is not as simple as Deputy McGilligan suggests. I considered this question from every possible angle. For the past two years, my Department have been going carefully into it and it was in no light-hearted way we decided that we should not propose to abolish this whole system of leaseholds. That is what it would amount to. Nobody knows what would be pulled up. The difficulties of certain widows were mentioned. I do not make light of their difficulties but almost half the holders of ground rents are people of very moderate means. Many of those who pay ground rents are business people and professional people—people who, in a large number of cases, are far better off than the ground landlords.

Is there any distinction between a rent reserved in a lease and a ground rent?

Mr. Boland

It would be very difficult to draw the distinction because, very often, two or three persons are being paid out of the rent. It is a most intricate problem. We have, of course, the original ground landlords, as in the case of the Howth and De Vesci estates but a great many people might intervene. We cannot get a clear distinction such as the Deputy asks for. The whole question is bristling with difficulties. Thé case made by Deputy Davin and the greater part of the case made by Deputy Norton was for the amendment of Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931. Deputy Davin dealt with two cases. When the lease fell in, he said that the demands of the landlord were so exorbitant that the tenant was not able to meet them and had to give up possession of the house. I asked whether that had happened before the passing of the 1931 Act. Deputies want, of course, to make the best case possible and it has been conveniently ignored in this debate that, before the 1931 Act, the landlord had the right to take complete possession of the land and of the buildings upon it. Nobody would justify that. When the Dáil considered the matter, a rough and ready solution was worked out by providing that the landlord should be entitled to charge 25 per cent. of the gross letting value of the house.

What about the North Circular Road?

Mr. Boland

I shall deal with that to the best of my ability. I have tried to be fair to all sides and I am going to be fair to all sides. This was the case of a house in a good residential area in Dublin—on the North Circular Road, near the Phoenix Park. The land covered about one-eighth of an acre and there was a ground rent for 99 years at £4 a year. That was a very small amount for such a plot in such a position. I do not care how I may be misrepresented about this matter; I am quite satisfied that, when that contract was entered into the person who gave the ground at a rent of £4 per year must have taken into consideration the fact that, in 99 years, the premises built on that land would come into the possession of his successor. I am certain that the person who took that lease and undertook to build a house on the land knew very well that, in 99 years, his successor in title would have to surrender that house. That, however, did not happen. The 1931 Act came into operation and, in 1934, this person bought the house for £500. It was a very big house and he spent about £400 on it. He bought the house three years after the 1931 Act had been passed and he must have had full knowledge, unless he was a very simple man, that the lease had only 11 years to run. He must have known that the £4 rent would disappear in 11 years and that the landlord would be entitled to raise the rent to one-fourth of the gross letting value. With that knowledge, he bought the house.

There are other cases.

Mr. Boland

I was challenged by Deputy Davin to defend that case. That is the defence. The person who sold that house would have got less for it if the 1931 Act had been passed because it would be known that, in 11 years, the house would pass from him completely. Even the seller got a better price than he would if the 1931 Act had not been passed. That man took the place with his eyes open. Including what he spent on the house, it cost him about £900.

Mr. Boland

If he were to sell it to-day, he would get £2,000 for it. Would Deputy Davin say that he should give a portion of that money back to the man from whom he bought the house? I am not saying that there is not a case for reconsideration of Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act. Within the next 12 months, I hope that some amendment of the 1931 Act will be introduced. That is not, however, dealt with in the motion, though it was the point made by those who spoke. In the motion, we are asked to introduce without delay proposals for legislation enabling owners of dwelling-houses and business premises to purchase their ground rents. I was surprised that the Labour Party should use the phrase "owners of dwelling-houses", because an owner might not be living in the house. We are asked in the motion to make provision for people who own houses and business premises, not for those who own and occupy them. Is the idea that we are to compel everybody living in a house to buy the ground rent?

The word used is "enabling".

Mr. Boland

Is the reference to people actually living in the houses or to owners, whether living in them or not?

The point is that you do not "compel"; you "enable".

Mr. Boland

I do not think there is such a demand for this legislation though in some cases there may be, as in the Dun Laoghaire area. The majority of people who have to buy houses find it difficult enough to get the necessary money without buying the ground rent as well. To set up the necessary organisation to do this would be a very costly business and would, eventually, lead to a demand for subvention by the State.

That is not in the motion.

Mr. Boland

It is not. There is very little in it.

Will you take what is in it?

Mr. Boland

No. I want to know what I may have to do. There may be a case for revising Section 48, but that is not in the motion. If I am the person responsible when proposals are brought in, I shall consider whether there is a case for such amendment. As regards racketeering and stabilising ground rents, these rents are stabilised. I was asked some time ago about stabilising those ground rents and I gave a full answer to the question. I was asked about rents charged to occupying tenants. Having examined the matter, I saw that there was reason for action and I asked the Government to make an Emergency Powers Order preventing increases of rent in the case of persons occupying houses. But there is no such thing as altering the ordinary ground rent if the lease does not fall in——

If it does fall in, is the Minister agreeable the rent should be raised?

Mr. Boland

Why should it not be raised? The sum of £4 a year was fixed almost 100 years ago. Surely, the man who fixed the ground rent at that figure, having regard to the value of money 100 years ago, is entitled to an increase. Things have changed in that time.

You have changed, too.

Mr. Boland

I have not changed one bit but I hope I shall be fair. In this motion, we are asked to do something equitable. To do that, we must be fair to both sides.

Would not that meet the point of the £4 man—to fix the new rent at some point that would be equitable?

Mr. Boland

I am referring to the request to stabilise ground rents.

——temporarily— pending the introduction of legislation.

Mr. Boland

There is no necessity for it. A contract was made and I do not see why all the benefit should go to one side.

Why do you keep down wages, prices and profits?

Mr. Boland

When it was suggested that people were profiteering as regards the rent of houses, I did not hesitate to get the Government to make an Emergency Powers Order. In respect of new flats, I am satisfied that there is a necessity for intervention also, because there has been profiteering. This is quite a different matter. I repeat that a very large number of those who own their houses are well-to-do people.

Are wage earners well-to-do people?

Mr. Boland

They are not wage-earners. They are people in good positions—civil servants, barristers, Ministers and big business people— people who could buy and sell those who own the ground rents. Are we going to give something to them, and take it off people who are eking out a miserable existence on their investments?

Are insurance companies and bodies of that kind eking out a miserable existence?

Mr. Boland

There is a lot of wild talk about that.

Are civil servants to be regarded as a well-to-do class?

Mr. Boland

Some of them.

What about the others?

Mr. Boland

Somebody talked about a land tax.

Deputy Butler.

Mr. Boland

The landlords pay full taxes. In my case, the ground landlord pays a tax of £6, on £16 ground rent. There is also estate duty. They pay a very heavy tax.

You never offered to raise your own rent for him?

Mr. Boland

I did not, but I do not want to buy it.

You belong to the well-to-do class.

Mr. Boland

I prefer to pay it every half-year rather than have to raise the capital sum that would be necessary to purchase it. I am not one of those who require Government help, and I think most people who are paying ground rents are not of that class either. I think those who want help are getting it. I do not think a case has been made out for a purchase scheme at all. The question is one that is full of difficulties. It has not been clear what type of people we should deal with, or whether we should confine the scheme to the voluntary type of purchase to which Deputy McGilligan referred. Other people may have different views. There may be a case for dealing with reversionary leases. Almost the whole of Deputy Norton's speech was taken up with the point that the ground landlord had a full right to take over the whole premises when a lease fell in, but he is permitted only to increase the rent to 25 per cent. of the gross letting value. As far as the cases quoted by Deputy Davin are concerned, I think there is a good answer to them. That is all I have to say.

That slams the door.

Is there even a back door open?

I think there is a good deal of nonsense talked about ground rents in that some of the protagonists of compulsory purchase try to make the case that people who buy houses are subjected to some terribly inequitable tax in perpetuity. It is common knowledge that when anyone buys a house with a ground rent payable out of it, due allowance is made for the fact that the ground rent is payable when the purchase price of the house is being ascertained. If there was no ground rent attached, the purchaser would have to pay a great deal more for his house. If a man bought a piece of land, built a house on it, and has had to pay a ground rent ever since, I suppose the case could be made that that is a hardship, but surely very few people owning have owned them ever since they were built on the land to which the ground rent is attached? I admit that in some of the recent building estates there are such persons, but take the Pembroke Estate—and it is an estate out of which much capital is made. How many people, who acquired premises on the Pembroke Estate, did not ascertain beforehand what ground rent was payable on the land on which their houses stand, and demand of the seller of the premises that he should abate the price of the house by a sum which would bear some relation to the annual ground rent? If the house were a freehold property, the person who purchased it would have to pay proportionately more than he did pay. I believe, therefore, that a good deal of that talk is nonsense. At the same time there does not seem to be any objection in principle to providing machinery whereunder ground rents may be equitably extinguished.

Mr. Boland

That would be compulsory?

No. "May be".

Mr. Boland

You could force the landlord to sell?

You could force purchase of the ground rent on terms which would be equitable to the ground landlord.

That is what the motion asks for.

I imagine that the Minister foresees that the motion might be interpreted as meaning a great deal more than that. It is very easy—I think Deputy Norton will agree with me—to over-simplify a problem of this kind for people like the residents of Carndonagh. It is all very well to say that you can simply provide machinery whereunder ground rents can be extinguished for persons whose cases are perfectly plain and simple, but those of us who have some experience of legislation—notably persons like Deputy McGilligan and the Minister who have had Ministerial responsibility in their day—realise that the implications of legislation to that end may be vast and complicated, and that it may be extremely difficult to do substantial justice to everybody if you attempt to deal with the matter by a comprehensive law. But surely, if we are agreed that the system of ground rents in perpetuity should not continue, in that we regard them as a fertile ground for agitation, I think we could set up machinery whereunder a person paying a ground rent would have recourse to a tribunal where the owner of the rent would be guaranteed full equity in fixing the purchase price at which his interest might be compulsorily acquired. When you are compulsorily extinguishing a right of that kind, even though we do not admire the root of that right—it is much better to recognise, whatever its history, that it is there—while we might attempt to penalise persons who are in the enjoyment of that right, from the point of view of the national welfare it is better to move if you are going to compulsorily acquire a person's property, in the direction of persuading that person that he is being equitably and generously dealt with. I think a basis of compensation could be found which would persuade at least 60 per cent. of the ground landlords that it would be greatly to their own advantage if they agreed to sell their interest.

Mr. Boland

Who should pay? Does the Deputy suggest that the State should pay.

Not at all.

Mr. Boland

You would want to be very careful about that.

I envisage a plan whereunder a man owning a property on which a head rent is charged—I think we would have to say whether he was in occupation or not—or where a citizen is paying a ground rent on property, if he wants to put in motion machinery which we shall provide, that machinery will declare the sum to be paid as equitable compensation for the ground rent owner, and on payment of that sum by the petitioner to the ground rent owner, the rent will become the property of the petitioner, and be merged in the title he has already to the property in respect of which the ground rent is payable. I do not say that legislation of that simple character would meet every claim in the country, but it would definitely deal with the principle of ground rents, and would provide machinery whereunder ground rents could be extinguished if those owning the property desired to extinguish them. I would be in sympathy with the Minister if he were not prepared to go further than that.

Mr. Boland

Would that apply to people who are not actually occupying the house? Would they not become the new ground landlords?

All you would have to do would be to fix a fair price for the owner of the ground rent, and to merge the title of the owner of the ground rent in the title of the person who really owned the house as distinct from the ground rent. I think you would have to make a provision that the only person who could set the arbitration machinery in motion would be the person in possession of the title to the premises in which the title to the ground rent could be merged. Is not that practicable?

By doing so you would restrict the matter so that every ground rent brought within the ambit of this machinery would promptly merge in the title of the house, and the next transaction in connection with that house would be a transaction divorced from ground rents entirely. In respect of that property, the ground rent, as distinguished from any other charge, would vanish for all time, and any conveyance would be a fee-simple one. I think it would be workable and that it would abate a great deal of trouble which is, unquestionably, readily available to mischievous people for the purpose of starting frantic agitations, justified by the analogy they draw between these agitations and the Land League agitations of 50 years ago. It is not easy for the average citizen to distinguish clearly between the two situations, and I think that the analogy is sufficiently close to justify us in saying that from the point of view of public order, and for social reasons, we are satisfied that it is desirable to have machinery of that kind. Then, if an agitation is started, and people start breaking windows and declaring "no rent", strikes, and so on, we need have no hesitation in calling in the Guards, telling them to draw their batons and clear the streets, because we would then be in a position to say to these people: "You have the machinery there at your disposal which will enable you to do this in a peaceful and a legal way." But, of course, so long as there are people in the position of feeling themselves labouring under a heavy sense of grievance, and we are constrained to tell them that there is no method or machinery available by which to disembarrass themselves of their grievances — particularly when our own consciences may not be very clear that there may not be grievances —we are not in a position to tell them to act in a peaceful and legal way, and the result is that we feel that a number of decent people are being left under a sense of grievance.

I recommend this proposal to the Minister as a first step, and if he takes that first step, he will find that this whole matter of ground rents, leasehold property, and so on, is not so complicated as it was. I suggest that he might take that as a first step, and then he can segregate from the matter of ground rents the other questions of leasehold law and property, which can be considered more calmly and dispassionately with a view to determining (1) whether they are of a character requiring action, and (2) what is the best method of going about it. It might be that in that event the residue of highly complex and delicate questions dealing with leasehold law and property might be referred to the Law Reform Committee which the Attorney-General has announced it was the intention of the Government to set up.

Oh, if you are going to leave it to them there is no knowing when it will be done.

Surely, Deputy McGilligan will agree that if you get into the sphere of leasehold law and property, and attempt the elimination of all the various complexities other than ground rents, you are treading on ground that is very delicate and dangerous.

Yes, but I would not like to see it postponed too long.

Yes, but I am merely asking the Minister to permit the owner to merge the ground rent in the title to his property. That is all I am asking for. The other is a very complex matter which I should be very sorry to see embarked on here without very grave and serious discussion— that is, the whole question of the law of property. After all, there is substance in what the Minister suggested. People having leaseholdings on, say, the Pembroke Estate are very often simple people, and I do not believe in depriving them of any property rights they have because the Earl of Pembroke is the property owner, because, after all, the Earl of Pembroke will survive no matter what we do, but the little fellow may find himself caught in a machinery which might lead to his irretrievable ruin.

The motion says: "on equitable terms". Where would there be irretrievable ruin on equitable terms?

Well, I can tell the Deputy that I saw so-called equitable terms fixed here for the pensioning of teachers, and every conceivable contingency which this House could think of was provided for, and yet I have a letter in my bag from an unfortunate Church of Ireland teacher, who just entered one class of service a day too late and failed to get into another class of service by two days, and was penalised as a result. Now, we have a very heavy responsibility here to try to safeguard even the humblest citizen of the State and see that we do not drive them into poverty and ruin in the process of dealing with a large property. I cannot see anybody objecting to my proposal, whereby the owner of property could merge the ground rent with the property, but I could quite easily conceive that if you went careering through the whole law of property without considering the various rights involved, you might cause a great deal of harm and mischief. I think the Minister should seriously consider the proposal I have submitted to him, because I really think it would help him.

In so far as the members of the Government Party who took part in this debate are concerned, I noticed that the Minister found himself in a minority of one. The other speakers all supported this motion that there should be stability of rent and no increases without further investigation, and, secondly, that a fair tribunal should be set up to fix what would be a just and equitable rent on property. Now, in addition to that, the motion envisaged a scheme of purchase which, I think, no matter what may be said to the contrary, is long overdue. I was struck by one argument put forward by Deputy Butler, or rather one doubt which he expressed in his enthusiasm for the motion, and that was that if the Government were to remove the injustices under which leaseholders labour, they would be immediately subjected to even greater injustice by direct tax on their property—a ground tax, I think he called it. I think that that was altogether an absurd attitude to take up. It was assuming that this country would cease to be Christian or civilised, and that you would have a Government here in the future which would not be guided by the principles of justice and Christianity, but would merely try to rake in excessive revenue from any source available. If this question is definitely solved, I think we can look forward to having a just and equitable Minister for Finance who will not impose burdens on the community similar to those imposed at present by owners of ground rents, because, whether or not we accept the view that the owners of ground rents are the impoverished section of the community which the Minister represents them to be, it is certain that they are raking off the tenants or the community in general, if the tenants are in a position to pass the burden on to the community, an excessive profit and one to which they are not entitled.

This Party will support this motion and will support every move that is made to secure the same equitable terms for town dwellers which the farming community secured in regard to land tenure. That I think is a demand which cannot be set aside and the meeting of which cannot be postponed merely on the ground that the problem is a complex and difficult one. The problem of solving the land question in the old days was a difficult one also, but it had to be faced, and it was only faced because there was a big public agitation on the matter. We do not want to have a similar agitation now, because if we were to allow feeling and bitterness to be aroused there would be a great danger of serious injustice being done to some of the people affected. It is better to solve this problem in a calm atmosphere and with due regard to the principles of justice and fair play to all sections concerned.

There is one aspect of the matter that strikes me very forcibly which has not been dealt with by any Deputy so far. The motion refers to leaseholders. There are two classes of leaseholders. I have a good deal of sympathy with the claim that the absentee landlord, whether he be rural or urban, should not have his way. We have the landlord who will lease a property to another man to build a house on it and charges a ground rent for it. But what about the property owner who built houses himself and gave a lease of them to the tenant? I have cases in mind where a man built houses at his own expense and, after a number of years, rather than continue the responsibility for the maintenance of the property, decided to grant a lease to the tenants. According to Deputy Davin, because these tenants held a lease, this man should be compelled to sell out to them, at their price if you like, the property which he himself created. I should like to hear from Deputy Norton, the Leader of the Labour Party, or Deputy Davin, who is sponsoring this motion, how they purpose to deal with the difference between these two classes of people. I have a great deal of sympathy with the claim against landlords who simply own the land or are supposed to own it; in many cases we know that, if put to the test, they could not produce title deeds to it. We have that kind of landlord in this country, particularly around the cities and towns. I should like to know how it is proposed to deal under this motion with the difference between these two classes of people to whom I have referred.

Equitable terms.

That is one matter.

That is your way out.

Whilst the ground rent problem is a difficult one to handle, especially that of old ground rents, I want to know whether it is not possible, when speculative builders buy a plot of land at a very reasonable price, to give them a fair profit, but to limit their profits so that they may not take advantage of the housing scarcity for middle-class people who, because they cannot get a house to rent, have to buy four-roomed or five-roomed houses or bungalows at £1,500 or £1,600, subject to a ground rent of £20 a year, when a ground rent of £5 a year would be sufficient. Owing to the scarcity of houses, these middle-class people borrow money from public utility societies and insurance companies to build a house. The builder, perhaps, has put up ten houses on a plot of land and he puts a ground rent of £20 per year on these houses, when £5 or £7 would be considered reasonable. The Minister ought to protect these people who are anxious to buy houses because they cannot get them to rent. They ought not to be fleeced by having to pay the ground rents which are being charged to-day.

I am very glad that this motion, a very moderate motion as it is, has received such an amount of support from all sides of the House. I am particularly grateful to the large number of Fianna Fáil Deputies who have given their support to the motion. I realise that if the division bell rings they will be ordered, and I suppose they will obey the order, to go into the Division Lobby against it. After listening to the Minister's speech—I think he was only opposing the motion in a half-hearted way—it is evident to me that the Government took their decision without consulting their Party. In view of the general support given to the motion by Fianna Fáil Deputies, I strongly urge the Minister to go back to a Party meeting and take the views of the members of his Party before he finally decides that the Government can do nothing to deal with the grievances of leaseholders. The Minister said that the decision to do nothing in this matter was not taken in any light-hearted fashion—I am using his own words—that when the Government came to consider this whole matter they found it was full of difficulties. Surely every one of the problems that we are asked to solve in this country and that this House will be confronted with in the years to come is full of difficulties. Difficulties are there to be got over. If there is a will to face the problem and solve it in a proper way, we can solve the problem of the leaseholders in the same way as the land problem has been solved, so far as it has been solved up to the present.

Deputy O'Connor, who is playing full-back in the Minister's ground-landlord team, made the speech which the Minister should have made. The Minister may be more sympathetic, personally, on this whole matter than Deputy O'Connor is. The Deputy is very silly when he talks about the difficulty the Government is confronted with in view of the failure to get reliable statistics. I asked for certain information in the House some time ago in connection with the revenue from ground rents and was given the stock reply that the labour involved in the preparation of the information would not be worth the cost. That is the stock reply which a Minister gives when he does not want to give information which might be used against him on a motion of this kind. I suspect that, if he wants to get that information regarding the revenue derived by citizens of this State or by absentee landlords, he can get it through the efforts of a clerical officer employed in the income-tax department of the Revenue Commissioners, in a few hours. There is no doubt whatever that, if he went to the income-tax files, it would be available in a day or two; and if he and his colleagues make an order that that information be furnished to Deputies, there would not be the slightest difficulty about it and it would not cost very much to supply it. I think every Deputy who wants to do his business as a Deputy is entitled to get it. Sometimes we are told it is not in the public interest to give information, but Ministers often confuse the public interest with the Party interest. If Deputy O'Connor wants to have a chat with the Minister for Justice and wants to get the information privately, I am sure the Minister could get it in a short time and without the difficulty which appears to be confronting Deputy O'Connor when he is asked to support this motion.

Deputy Butler, who gave a very effective answer to the points raised by Deputy O'Connor, has much more knowledge and information regarding this whole matter than I have, and, on account of his long association with the Leaseholders' Association, he probably has more knowledge of it than either Deputy O'Connor himself or the Minister.

Deputy O'Connor is a landlord, it must be remembered.

He is a director of a big organisation that I am personally aware derives a very big income from ground rents.

Mr. Boland

He pays ground rent himself.

But he does not own any ground rents.

Mr. Boland

I do not think so. I know he pays ground rent, the same as I do.

I am not saying that for the purpose of casting any reflection on Deputy O'Connor. He made a very sensible speech in opposition to the motion, but when he talked about the failure to get certain information, I think, if he said that sincerely, it was due to the fact that he is only a short time a member of this House. When he is as long a member as I am now, I will tell him how he can get the information, and how to get it privately if the Minister is willing to supply it. We have had this stock reply on innumerable occasions.

The Minister dealt in a passing way with the case of the North Circular Road leaseholders, which I raised here. He appears to be, as I expected he was, fully acquainted with the circumstances. He appears to have dealt with only one leaseholder involved, but there is a large number of leaseholders paying ground rents of £4, £6 and higher amounts in that particular case. May I put that case in another way to the Minister? The leaseholders in the North Circular Road case are known to me personally to be workers of the clerical class, on an average income of £5 a week. Through their thrift and, in some cases, as a result of assistance given to them by relatives, they have been enabled to go to the bank and borrow money to buy these houses and also set aside out of their very small incomes from year to year a certain amount for the improvement of the property between the time it was purchased and the time the lease fell in. The Minister, as a result of one Order, the famous Emergency Powers Standstill (Wages) Order, will not allow the employers of those people to give any more than 3/- in the £ increase on their wages since the emergency, but is prepared to stand up here and, to my amazement, give the ground landlords the right to charge £25 as ground rent, instead of the pre-war ground rent of £4. Is there any justice in that, especially from the Minister for Justice? There certainly is not.

Every section of the citizens of this State, such as wage earners, farmers, shopkeepers and investors of every type, have their income or wages fixed, but this is the one particular and peculiar type allowed to get away with anything they like. I suspect that the Minister, having heard what has been said on this motion, may—and I hope he will—even now say that he will go back and ask his colleagues in the Government to reconsider their decision in this matter. I suspect, from what he actually did say in the House, that the matter is going to be looked into again, even if only for the purpose of tightening up the powers given in Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931.

Mr. Boland

That was not the main point the Deputy raised in his speech.

The Minister had better have a look at Section 24 also, when he is at it.

Mr. Boland

I am looking at the whole Act.

The Minister amazed me when he said that 50 per cent. were people of moderate means.

Mr. Boland

I said that quite advisedly. That is my information.

Will the Minister give us the rest of the information he has that he refused to give before? I see now that he had information.

Mr. Boland

I had that much.

The Minister had the information I asked for and he did not give it.

Mr. Boland

I had not. If I had, I would have given it.

What percentage of them are poor widows? I suppose there is the usual stock reply to that. What percentage of them are absentee landlords? What percentage are residing permanently in this country? Give me that information or, at least, give it to the House. I suspect the Minister has it.

Mr. Boland

I have not.

What is the percentage?

Mr. Boland

There was a motion here some time ago about having a special levy on ground rents and, in making up the Minister's case on that, it was discovered that about 50 per cent. of the people who owned ground rents were people of moderate means.

What does the Minister mean by "moderate means"?

Mr. Boland

That they were earning just sufficient to enable them to live.

£300 or £400 a year?

Mr. Boland

I cannot explain that.

Does the Minister mean £300 or £400 a year?

Mr. Boland

In or about that.

And 50 per cent. of the ground landlords were of that type?

Mr. Boland

Yes. The one I was paying to had not got very much more.

If the Deputy desires a division, the question must be put soon.

I desire a division, unless the Minister changes his mind at the last minute.

Mr. Boland

I will not change my mind.

May I say, in conclusion, that a big proportion of the revenue deriving from ground rents—will the Minister deny it?—is derived by Lord Longford, De Vesci, Midleton and Barrymore? They are poor landlords of that type. I hope, when I put the question down again, I will get more information than I received before and will get the information I am looking for. If the Minister makes inquiries, he will find that it can be supplied to Deputies without much cost.

Motion put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 40.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Davin, William.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Heskin, Denis.
  • Hughes, James.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, William F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick (County Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • McCann, John.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies M. O'Sullivan and Corish; Níl: Deputies O Briain and B. Brady.
Motion declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 2.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, February 20th, 1946.
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