I understand that we are to be heard more widely throughout the world as a result of proposals that the Minister has put before the House, and that he has actually taken steps to put into operation. If we are going to be heard more widely throughout the world I think we ought to be heard by the kind of voice that we have so common in Ireland, and that is so pleasant to hear. It may be on the street, in the country, going up an Irish hill or along a river that voices that are delightful to hear and that refresh the spirits are heard. Many of the most attractive voices can be heard in every corner of the country but we do not seem to be able to get them on the radio. I ask the Minister, now that we are going to be heard more widely, if some more serious effort than was made in the past could be made to get types of Irish voices, both male and female, that we have, and that ought to be heard from Radio Éireann. I do not know anything that would add more to the prestige of our broadcasting than to have heard over it the kind of delightful Irish voices, of men and women, that we never hear except on isolated occasions from the Irish broadcasting station. The second point I wish to refer to concerns the fiftieth anniversary of the foundation of the Gaelic League. Would it not be nearly time that in Irish announcements from the Irish broadcasting station we would be able to get somebody who could say, with the proper Irish enunciation, "Radio Éireann", because we have not got it yet? Until "Radio Éireann" is properly pronounced from our Dublin broadcasting station I think we ought to call it something else. We ought to be able to find somebody who is able to pronounce these words as an Irish speaker would properly pronounce them, now that we have celebrated the anniversary of the founding of the Gaelic League.
Committee on Finance - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting (Resumed).
I am not so much concerned about the pronunciation of "Radio Éireann". I think very few people in the country are concerned about it, and that it should be debunked long ago. I am concerned with more material things, and particularly with broadcasting as it affects Cork and district. An impression is abroad that it is the intention of the Minister to close down the Cork station. Is it not true that in the last few months there was a staff revision of the three sections, namely, Athlone, Dublin and Cork? Is it not also true to say that all the skilled workmen in Dublin have been up-graded from Class 2 to Class 1, but that an exception was made in Cork, as none of the skilled workmen there was up-graded? I have to ask why? They possess equal skill, but they have not been up-graded in the same way as their fellows in Athlone and Dublin.
This is one of the questions which I am sure the Minister will find it rather difficult to explain, although he may answer. We are told that the only reason which operated in making this distinction or this difference was that the duties of the officials or operators in Dublin were more onerous than the duties performed in Cork. That is not correct, because the work is of a similar character, demanding the same kind of experience and training. The original staff in the Cork station comprised one director, one engineer and four operators. That staff now consists of one supervisor and four operators. Again, I have to ask why? Why differentiate? The operators in Dublin and Athlone have a higher rank than those in Cork, and my statement on this whole matter could be summarised in four or five whys. I want to know why these things have taken place and why the operators of the system in Cork have been discriminated so unfairly against. So far as I know, no logical explanation has been given to these operators in Cork and they are rather anxious to know how they stand in the matter.
Another practice which has grown up is that of sending operators from Dublin to Cork on the occasion of certain broadcasts. They have been sent down to Mallow and to Cork, and that one item alone would account for some at least of the increased expenditure. I have indicated that there is no necessity for that discrimination, because the men who operate the system in Cork are just as highly skilled and just as highly efficient as any operators in Athlone and Dublin. There is undoubtedly a feeling in Cork that the Department is prejudiced in some way against the staff in Cork. I have no doubt whatever that the Minister would not be guilty of any such prejudice — I know him too well to attribute anything of that character to him — but it demands some sort of inquiry, and, the sooner that inquiry is established, the better for all parties concerned.
It brings home the lesson to me that a system like that would not be tolerated in any business concern I know of, and it makes one very suspicious of State interference in matters of this kind. This should be a kind of business undertaking, and no business undertaking that I know of would dream of bringing a number of men from Dublin to Cork to perform an operation which could be performed just as well on the spot by the members of the Cork staff. I know that in other Departments of Government such things have taken place, even resulting in staffs being made redundant, but that is another matter which is not related to this Vote.
I hope the position I speak of will be inquired into, with a view to having it remedied as soon as possible. Above all, I am particularly interested in the reason for this discrimination, not so much in relation to the personal matter of the staff as in relation to the broad general principle of good, clean and decent administration. I think the House is entitled to know why it is that these highly skilled men—men who are as highly skilled as the men in Dublin—should be discriminated against, as they have been in the way to which I have referred.
In the matter of broadcasting, I have a considerable amount of sympathy with the Minister and with the directors of Radio Eireann, because it is very difficult always to know what the public want. It is an entirely different kind of service from that provided by the Press. A newspaper proprietor can judge the feelings of his readers by the sales of his paper. In respect of broadcasting, there is no such guide, because, once a person purchases a receiving set, he is not compelled to listen to a particular station. He can listen to any station he likes and the fact that the number of people with wireless licences tends to increase does not indicate that the service provided by our Department is popular. The fact that broadcasting is a completely different service from anything else we know is, I have always felt, a source of confusion and tends to mislead those who control broadcasting in relation to entertainment or education.
The Minister may feel that, because so many people are licence holders, broadcasting commands a very wide and far-reaching influence over the feelings and opinions of our people, and he may be inclined to exaggerate the importance of the service on the basis of the large number of licence holders in the country. But the Minister has to bear this fact in mind, as we also have to bear it in mind, that broadcasting does not exert the same influence over the minds of the people as, for example, the Press, or even the cinema. The receiving-set is introduced into a number of homes, but it does not hold the centre of the stage. In the ordinary home, it is just a sideshow. The main interests in any family are the ordinary family interests, the ordinary conversations, the ordinary household duties and so on, and the radio is more or less an intrusion into, or interruption of, the family life of our people. It cannot be said to command such an influence as one might be inclined to assume it does command, in the light of the number of licence holders in the country.
It cannot be said to command such an influence as one might be inclined to assume it does. The number of licence holders throughout the country cannot be taken as an indication of the influence it might be said to command. If the Minister wished to estimate and calculate the place which broadcasting holds he would first have to disguise himself as a very ordinary citizen in order to go into the ordinary homes and find out for himself to what extent the programmes which he provides are being listened to, and the amount of interest taken in them. If he were to do that I am afraid that he would be bitterly disappointed. I am not saying that the programmes which are provided by foreign stations are more widely availed of. I am merely pointing out that the people do not turn on the radio to the extent some people appear to imagine. It is, as I say, very difficult in the ordinary normal household to "listen in." In the ordinary family where there are children—as there ought to be—there are considerable distractions. Children have got to do their school home-work and they have got to carry on the ordinary conversation which is both desirable and necessary in any family; and the radio must be turned off at such times. We are, I think, rather inclined to exaggerate and overrate the importance of broadcasting to the community in general. It does not compare in any way with the influence wielded by the cinema although the cinema does not enter into every home. When people go to the cinema they go prepared to enjoy whatever programme is being provided for them. The entertainment is completely in the hands of the gentlemen in Hollywood and elsewhere and the cinema patrons devote their entire attention to the programme provided. It is not the same with broadcasting. The artist, who is seeking to entertain the community through the medium of broadcasting, has a very, very difficult task in his endeavour to hold the interest of the ordinary people. That is why I say that those who are preparing our programmes should bear in mind the difficulties with which they have to contend and the obstacles that they must overcome in order to capture and hold the interests of their listeners.
For that reason I hold that it is absolutely essential that we should provide lighter programmes than those usually provided by Radio Éireann. We should provide more comedy and more humour in order to catch and hold the attention of the ordinary listener. The heavy educational programme is invariably turned off; so too, to a very great extent in the average home, is the high-class classical music; so too, to a great extent is the major portion of the Gaelic programme. I would suggest—I know that I shall be severely censured and probably severely criticised for making this suggestion—that there be less music in our programmes, less Gaelic, and less of the heavier type of educational programme. I would suggest there should be more drama, more good singing, and more light comedy. I think drama plays a very important part in broadcasting. Plays are an enormous source of attraction. They hold an audience. They are listened to. They make a much better impression than a long and heavy lecture or a talk.
In this connection I would like to say that I think very useful work is being done in the matter of historical plays and drama. I think such historical plays have a very good effect from the educational point of view. At the same time they are a source of entertainment and they can be listened to with interest. They help to educate and to cultivate an interest in the history of our nation, and to bring before the lives of the ordinary people the outstanding personalities in the history of our country. In regard to singing, I think it is high time that those who are employed or who volunteer their services should learn to sing distinctly and to enunciate the words of any song which they are singing. We all know the remarkable popularity enjoyed by the late Count John McCormack—a world-wide popularity. That was due not only to the high quality of his art, not only to the depth of feeling with which he sang, but also to the excellence of his diction which enabled the listener whether he was listening to a gramophone record or to the radio to follow precisely the words of any song sung by the late Count John McCormack. Now it is almost impossible to follow the words of nine out of ten of the singers who sing on Radio Éireann.
I think that is due to a great extent to carelessness. It is a thing which could be avoided. In regard to speaking over the radio it is of course essential that those who speak should have some technical training both in voice production and in the use of the microphone. I know myself that it is exceedingly painful to listen to broadcasters from Radio Éireann. One would imagine in many cases that they had rammed the microphone down their throats. Not only can you hear the words they speak so sibilantly and harshly, but you can also hear the sound of their lungs and the beating of their hearts and other internal organs. This might be very interesting to the listener if he happened to be a medical doctor who might be interested in such things. I think that this is a matter which requires a little expert technical advice. Now, I was listening to the radio last Sunday night and I heard an appeal made by Deputy Dockrell. I was very favourably impressed by the manner in which his address came across the radio. As a matter of fact, it was much better than many of those who habitually broadcast from Radio Éireann. It may be perhaps that some people have what is known as a broadcasting voice and others have not. That may be. But surely that is a matter in which there could be, with advantage, some improvement.
I think the people connected with broadcasting from Radio Éireann have completely lost a sense of humour, or else they feel that the Irish people have lost their sense of humour. They would seem to believe that anything that is not deadly serious, that is not of the type of information contained in circulars sent out by the Civil Service, is sacrilegious and should not be broadcast. People who work, who lead strenuous lives, like a little light entertainment and they expect it from the radio, and it should not be difficult to provide it for them. We all know that generally the Irish people have a highly developed sense of humour. If a group of people meet in the evening at a farmhouse or at the chapel gate on Sunday they are able to provide plenty of hearty laughter for themselves. There is no reason why Radio Éireann should not be able to provide light entertainment for the community.
It appears to be more or less an obsession of Radio Éireann that they must not offend any of their listeners, and I think that tends to cramp their style. A little contention or healthy controversy would be welcome. Contentious arguments or discussions on vital topics would be enjoyed by listeners. The newspapers invite their readers to use the correspondence columns for the purpose of argument and controversy in order to excite interest. The same should apply to broadcasting. People like listening to arguments for and against any particular proposition, and they like hard-hitting. It tends to arouse healthy interest, always provided that the scale is fairly held between the contestants. There should be a fair chance for the expression of every point of view and the contestants should be allowed to state their cases fairly and fully without favouritism being shown for one side as against another. That applies to every type of argument—political or otherwise.
I have a complaint to make. I have listened to and I have been deeply impressed by the annual programmes commemorating Easter Week. They are always excellent and very impressive. That programme is official in the sense that Radio Eireann stands over it. It is in the same position as, say, an editorial. Therefore, I suppose, we can hold Radio Éireann responsible for it. There is a mistake made practically every year that in the desire to impress listeners as to the immensity of the achievements of the leaders of Easter Week, there is always a tendency to discourage other political leaders and particularly those who immediately preceded the Republican leaders of Easter Week. That is undesirable. Nothing is added to the honour or glory of the men of Easter Week by discrediting those who preceded them. It is not necessary because those who took part in that great movement stand so high that their status need not be enhanced by lowering the status of the Parliamentary Party which preceded them. Frequently on Radio Eireann and practically every year we hear it announced that the country, politically, was sunk into a condition of corruption and depravity from which only the Rising of Easter Week could have raised it. Nobody will accept that. It will be accepted that, whether those who were the leaders of the national movement prior to Easter Week were wrong or right, they certainly were men who, at least, compare favourably with political Parties of the present day, and even with the Fianna Fáil Party. It is necessary in a matter of this kind to hold the balance fairly.
I appreciate the difficulty in seeking to portray historical events which are within living memory. There is a tendency to be prejudiced and biased. It is difficult to hold the scales as fairly as they might be held in relation to matters of more ancient history. I entirely agree with the policy of publicising and paying tribute to those engaged in important national events and of bringing to the notice of listeners outstanding national personalities. That is a very important function. I believe it can be provided more adequately by drama and by plays than in any other way.
I recommend to the Minister the few suggestions which I have made, namely, that we should get clearer and better speaking in talks and other broadcasts, clearer and better singing and more and better plays. It is difficult, I admit, for a service such as Radio Eireann, catering for an audience which is invisible, to give perhaps the type of entertainment which is required. The audience contributes a great deal. It assists the actor and also, I suppose, the producer and perhaps the author. For the purpose of broadcasting, the audience is invisible as far as the producer and the artists are concerned and that is a disadvantage. It was a pity that when wireless broadcasting was introduced radio sets were not invented so large that only one could be provided in each parish. If that had happened, you would have got much better services, much better programmes, and much more appreciative audiences, because if people had to pay to go into a hall to listen they would insist on good programmes and, by their active interest, they would ensure that good programmes would be provided. Unfortunately, broadcasting has been introduced as a kind of service which interrupts the ordinary life of the family and in that way it does not command the position of power and influence which it would otherwise command.
I understand there is a proposal to provide a new short wave station. I was wondering what particular function that station will perform. Will it be used mainly or exclusively for sponsored programmes, or will the programmes be similar to those already provided from Athlone? I feel that it might not be undesirable to extend the sponsored programmes if facilities are provided, because at least there would be an opportunity for the listener to compare what the private firm can provide in the way of entertainment as against that officially provided by a Government Department. As a result of the competition between the two, it might be possible to improve both.
Despite Deputy Cogan's strictures, I must say, as one who listens pretty frequently to our own station, that on the whole, bearing all the circumstances in mind, it does its work reasonably well. As has been said in previous debates here, the main trouble is the lack of money to bring the station to the pitch to which we should all like to see it brought. Until there is plenty of money expended on the station it cannot compare as favourably as we would like with stations across the water or on the Continent. A move in that direction is being made in the Estimates this year by provision of a certain amount for a short wave station.
I should like to make one criticism. I may be alone in my view, but I wish to express it. A short time ago I saw a news paragraph indicating that it was to be the policy of Radio Eireann to extend its sponsored programmes, apparently for revenue purposes. I take the view that individuals like manufacturers of certain products who want to use the radio have another well-known and recognised medium of advertising, namely, the newspapers. I suggest that the Minister should not be putting himself in competition with the newspapers which employ large staffs at decent wages, so far as I know. An individual putting over such a programme has to blare out the value of the product concerned and one has of necessity to listen to that portion of the programme. In my opinion, it destroys the value of the programme as a whole.
I make one exception to that, and that is the sponsored programme of the Hospitals' Trust. The Hospitals' Trust is associated with a national undertaking. My experience is that its programmes are exceptionally well prepared and exceedingly well put over. They are very pleasant and very acceptable as a whole. I make that one exception. I hope, however, that the Minister will not bring our station down to the standard of certain Continental stations before the war which did not stand very high in the estimation of people interested in broadcasting.
No.
When I came into the Chamber I heard Deputy Anthony criticising something in connection with Cork. I do not know exactly what it was. Perhaps it was in connection with an item on the Estimate which I might also mention. For some years there was a pretty good row going on with regard to the remuneration of the news staff of Radio Éireann. I thought that the matter was satisfactorily adjusted. I am not quite clear from the figures before me whether the salaries attaching to the reporting staff are acceptable to the National Union of Journalists. I am, however, intrigued to know what is meant by the item in the Estimates with regard to a news correspondent at 90/- a week and another item with regard to an individual in Cork doing similar work for 30/- a week. I do not know if that is what Deputy Anthony was referring to. It struck me as strange that there should be such a provision under these categories in Dublin and in Cork with such a striking disparity between the figures.
There are other figures running through the Estimate which have the old bad mentality of the Post Office so far as wages and salaries are concerned. We shall have more to say about that on the Minister's Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It is time that that mentality was left behind and that a high standard was set so far as the broadcasting station is concerned.
I did not intend to speak on this Estimate, but when I hear Deputy Cogan advocating sponsored programmes, I want to protest against sponsored programmes, the Bird's Custard programme and everything else, which lower the level and the dignity of our national broadcasting service. I hope the Minister will give some attention to that. Surely it is time to cut out these and to show that we have some dignity and culture in this country. I do not want to compare our station with any other station. I think we ought not to do that.
We do not want any highbrow stuff here. We want to cater for our own people who have simple tastes and possibly right tastes because they are simple. We ought to cater for them. On the whole, I think our station is doing pretty well. Some improvements could be made and I am sure will be made; but I think we ought to give credit where credit is due. For instance, I think the dramatic productions are excellent and very entertaining. The musical recitals are reasonably good. But, so far as discussions and talks are concerned, there could be a considerable improvement, particularly in regard to agricultural matters in a country like this where we want a lot of technical information. A considerable amount of useful education work could be done in that respect. Mr. G. O. Sherrard, who broadcasts on horticulture, is excellent and very interesting; he has a very fine voice and I think a lot of people interested in gardening listen-in to his broadcasts. I am merely giving that as an example of what could and should be done. We should take the same line in agriculture and should get experts of his type. In the past we have had interesting discussions between farmers which were very useful.
On the technical side, we should get recognised authorities. I listened recently to some talks on agriculture by individuals who gave their own experience, telling of their failures and successes. That is not very interesting, as no one cares a button about the success or failure of individual farmers. It is information we are looking for generally all over the country. The farmer who comes home from his work tired out, and sits down in a decent chair, is maybe too tired to read, but he may listen very patiently to what is being said over the wireless. For that reason, the radio could be used culturally and educationally to great advantage. I believe Radio Éireann is doing fairly well. I am looking for further improvements, however, and I end by saying again that the Bird's Custard programmes should be cut out, so as to maintain the level and dignity of a broadcasting service of which we can be proud.
I did not intend subscribing to this debate, but I was in the House during portion of Deputy Cogan's speech and I find myself in thorough disagreement with Deputy Hughes. I believe that, while Radio Éireann has improved from what it was, it is a long way from receiving the complete approval of the ordinary citizen. I think that Radio Éireann is the best part of the time closed down. It opens at 1 o'clock in the day. Why should the station not open at 9 o'clock and provide breakfast-time music? My experience in knocking around and listening to comments by people on Radio Éireann is that they are totally disgusted with the whole plan of broadcasting. Many of them say they are paying a licence fee of 12/6 and have to have recourse to the B.B.C. programmes most of the time. Personally, I very seldom find time to sit down and enjoy the Radio Éireann entertainment, but when I do, the only programmes that interest me are the sponsored programmes of Hospitals Trust and the racing commentary.
I disagree with Deputy Hughes' comment about the sponsored programmes. Many merchants and manufacturers like to advertise and sponsor their products and that is what the people want, in my opinion. The principal part of the programme enjoyed by the vast majority of our citizens is the Irish Hospitals Trust programmes. It is the best feature of Radio Éireann, and I was very pleased to see it was extended recently in length of time. It is a part of the programme which provides very varied entertainment for all listeners. Question Time has been a great feature of Radio Éireann and a most popular one, and it is educational. If we had more artists like Joe Linnane and others who have a very popular name, more entertainment would be provided for the listeners. Some arrangement should be made with the G.A.A., whereby all the Leinster, Munster and Connaught finals would be broadcast. I thought that, during the transport difficulties, those Provincial Finals would have been put on the air. I hope some arrangements will be made in the future to have the G.A.A. championship matches for each province broadcast. All fans of Gaelic games are interested in them as well as in the All-Ireland Finals, and the supporters of the game should be assisted in following the finals in each province.
Deputy Cogan stated it would be better to have arrangements made whereby there would be only one wireless in each parish. I do not know how that would work out. For instance, I would not like my house to be the one where the parish radio would be kept. I wonder if Deputy Cogan can suggest whether the wireless should be in the local hall, in the parish priest's house or in the local publichouse. Wherever it might be, I do not think the idea would work; at any rate, it would bring in very little revenue. I agree with Deputy Hughes that there should be more discussions and debates, especially on agriculture. There were farming talks some time ago by Mr. J. J. Bergin of Athy, I think. It is surprising the number of farmers in most remote parts of the country who look forward to securing advice and education from those talks.
The programme has been improved very considerably, but it has still a long way to go. We could do with a lot more sponsored programmes, additional talks and discussions and less high-brow music, and more of the latest modern songs. That would provide listeners with the type of entertainment they believe they are entitled to from Radio Éireann.
I think that the value of the wireless in general should not be under-estimated, as Deputy Cogan seems to under-estimate it. Most people are agreed that the radio has become part and parcel of the people and of the home. It is quite natural for every single person, as soon as he comes home to lunch or tea, to turn on the wireless, whether he listens or not. It has become a habit. In that respect, Radio Éireann, as our Irish broadcasting service, has certainly contributed in no small measure to the entertainment which wireless does provide. I consider that Radio Éireann is one of the few broadcasting stations in the world where there is a real effort made to disseminate culture not alone to Europe but to the whole world. I can quite see Deputy Flanagan's point and Deputy Hughes's point when they talk about sponsored programmes and Bird's Custard and to my mind therein lies the snag.
People who sponsor the Bird's Custard programme evidently know how to present what I might term musical shows to the people. It is unfortunate that we must depend on these industrial firms or manufacturers for the type of shows which the people want. My suggestion to the Minister would be that if the broadcasting officials could present shows like those of the Irish Hospital Sweepstakes or could present programmes in the same manner, utilising the same type of music, there would be no objection from any Deputy here as to the type of productions at the station.
Deputy Cogan urged, and I think Deputy Flanagan supported him, that we should get away from highbrow stuff, but God forbid that we should ever descend to the same kind of variety and humour or the canned jazz music that we sometimes get from the B.B.C. and other stations. That is the reason that I suggest that Radio Éireann can serve a useful function in preserving some sort of culture in Ireland. Deputy Cogan looks for less of the Irish language in broadcasts. I think it is only fair to admit that the type of encouragement given to the Irish language by wireless broadcasts is one of the easiest and most acceptable types of encouragement that the language can get. Possibly Deputy Cogan does not like the Irish language to be stuffed down the people's throats but I suggest to him and to every other Deputy, that it is only by such subtle methods of propaganda as broadcasting can provide that the Irish language has any chance of surviving. It may not be possible to force the language down people's throats but if one is sitting at his tea or lunch, whilst a broadcast in the language is in progress, one unconsciously seems gradually to pick up the language by learning a word or two every day.
Radio Éireann does give us many good programmes and I think one of the most notable features of broadcasting in Ireland is the lunch time gramophone concerts. In these concerts you get items of various types. You get classical music, semi-classical music, and sometimes we go down to Bing Crosby and Big Bill Campbell. Country Deputies are usually concerned with matters of this kind, in so far as they affect their own constituencies and I would appeal to the Minister, speaking on behalf of my own constituency, but particularly on behalf of the town of Wexford, that the gramophone concerts should start not later than 12.30 p.m. Many people in Wexford, Enniscorthy and Gorey are engaged in foundries and workshops. They go home to lunch at 12.30 and they arrive at their houses about 12.35 or 12.40.
They may have to leave their houses at a quarter past one and consequently they have only a quarter of an hour to listen to what is a very admirable programme provided by the lunch-time concerts. On the other hand, very few working-class people who are out from work during the day, listen to Radio Éireann from 2 to 2.30. I think it would be to the advantage of the people in general if the lunch-time gramophone concerts were scheduled to start half an hour earlier.
As a country Deputy, I should also like to appeal to the Minister to employ more country artists. I am not suggesting that the officials in Radio Éireann are all Dublin people but they are people who possess what I might call a city mentality and they are more or less inclined to frown sarcastically on the efforts of people who possess any type of talent, down the country. Let me assure them that in provincial towns there are musicians, actors and elocutionists who are capable of providing as good, if not a better programme, than many of the artists employed in Dublin. I know there is the difficulty of travelling and that the question of expense is involved, but I think that in order to encourage the use of wireless and to induce our people in the country to take a greater interest in the programmes, country artists should be encouraged to make their services available to Radio Éireann by paying them suitable fees and expenses to enable them to travel and to derive some small profit from their contributions.
Once again I should like to congratulate the Minister on his efforts to make broadcasting accessible to the people of the whole country. The late Deputy for County Wexford had occasion to complain repeatedly of reception in the town of Wexford. The Minister met him on several occasions and sent some of his technicians down there. I can assure him now that reception in Wexford from Radio Éireann is at least as good as that from any of the British broadcasting stations.
I am glad to know that the Minister is thinking of having a new short wave station erected. That is a very important project, particularly as far as people outside the State are concerned, who are desirous of listening to Irish programmes. In the past they never had any comfort or satisfaction because reception was very bad. It is to be hoped that this short wave station will remove all cause of complaint on that score and that on occasions like Saint Patrick's Day, Christmas and other important festivals they will be able to listen-in to the programmes from their own country and to hear whoever is speaking on behalf of the Government or the people of the nation.
Broadcasting is very important in so far as it contacts a number of people inside and outside the State and enables us to convey to people, who do not read of activities here, news of interest. I think that when this new station is erected we should have a special programme for Irish people living outside the country and even a special programme for those who are cut away from us by the unnecessary and artificial Border. I have urged before that the radio should be used for the purpose of bringing home to the people outside this State the position of this country, the fact that there exists this unnatural Border and that the Irish people desire to have it abolished. The radio would be one of the means by which we could bring to the notice of the people living outside the State outstanding points in the history of the country, both past history and present-day history. Our broadcasting station could be very educational, not only in the Irish language but in the English language. It could do many things to help the people from the point of view of inculcating a civic spirit and developing a sense of civic duty. In sponsoring a programme of that sort the station would be helping the people to understand the Irish language. A good sharp talk could be given on the ideas behind the programme and the reasons why the Irish language was being fostered. Some people treat the Irish programmes with sarcasm as well as those who speak the language for the purpose of helping others to learn it. I think that if they were given an idea of what is behind such a programme they might begin to understand the purpose of it, and eventually might start to learn the national language themselves.
The programmes as a whole are pretty good. I am not in a position either to praise or to condemn them. As a rule, I do not listen-in to the radio except perhaps for the news bulletin. As Deputy Flanagan has said, I think that the station should open earlier in the day. I would suggest 8 o'clock in the morning so that people might be given the early news. That, I think, would prove of interest to workers. Before starting out in the morning they would like to know what had happened since the last news bulletin was given out about midnight. I think that if they could hear the news over the radio when sitting over their breakfast it would help them to digest it. Some Deputies may smile at that. We all know that it is not a good thing to rush our meals. Most people like to read the newspaper while they are at their breakfast. That gives them time to digest the meal properly. The same effect, I think, would be produced if there was an early news bulletin. It would be almost as pleasant as listening to the birds singing in the early morning. Some people may get up in the morning with very sore heads after the night before. If they were able to turn on the wireless before leaving the house, it might help to change their whole outlook for the day. I think it would be a very good idea indeed if the station opened at an earlier hour and provided music and other entertainment for listeners. The children's hour could also be made very entertaining and educational.
My main purpose in getting up was to tell the Minister that I am very pleased with the service. I hope that, when the short-wave station is in operation, it will be used for the purpose of bringing to the notice of people outside the country some knowledge of our history, our culture and our ideas, and in particular the fact that we have here an artificial partition of our country which is held by armed force, threats and pressure. It is surprising, especially since the war started, the number of English people who take an interest in the broadcasts from Radio Éireann. One of the main reasons for that was that they were desirous of hearing unbiassed war news. They wanted to hear an uncensored version of the German and English war news. I know that during my travels, especially in Great Britain, many people told me that they would hurry home in order to hear the Irish news bulletin. When the short-wave station is in operation I am sure that those people will be even more eager to hear the news sent out from our station. In conclusion, I may say that I am very pleased that we are progressing.
I congratulate the Minister on the general programmes of Radio Éireann. The director of the station, who possibly has more to do with it than anybody else, is also to be congratulated. Professor Joad, one of the Brains Trust who broadcasts frequently over the B.B.C., recently visited Killarney and Cork and spoke on the accents of people in different countries. He also wrote some articles on the same subject. One of the things he has said is that the Irishman has captured him completely, and that, of all the accents that he has ever heard, the Irish accent is the most fascinating. I have not lived very much out of Ireland. I have visited England, Scotland and Wales. I have listened to English as it is spoken by people in different countries, and almost always I could discern from the accent of the speaker the country that he or she came from. I agree with Professor Joad in the views that he has expressed. Right off, I make the claim that I think the best English in the world is spoken in this House, though I would exempt myself from that. I do not like to mention names, but I think that without exception, from the Taoiseach down, the very best English in the world is spoken here. We use language to convey our thoughts, and the best language is that which is most easily understood.
I am reluctant to refer to people who are earning their living, but I think that those who speak English over the radio here have never accepted English as she is spoken by the natives of the country. I think they should get away from that. They adopt the Rathmines, Ballsbridge and haw-haw kind of stuff. That is the standard adopted to a great extent, and I do not like it. It is not speaking English in the way that the members of this House speak it. I am sorry that that seems to be the kind of standard which many of the broadcasters adopt. They speak as if they were afraid to open their mouths. They should open their mouths so that we might understand them. I have heard old soldiers say on their return to Ireland from service in the colonies—my native county at one time was a garrison county—that they could more easily understand the English language when spoken by the people of this country than when it was spoken by English people.
Why did you get away from that standard? Though many of these accents do not please me, a few do. I heard an Englishman comment on a very famous broadcaster. Michael O'Hehir. He has made a wonderful impression in England and he is a glorious talker. One can understand every syllable that man utters and it is a pleasure to listen to him. Drop that Oxford accent, which is supposed to be the best in the world. Dublin claims it and Aberdeen claims it. Not much "haw-haw" attaches to Oxford but I detest the Rathmines-Ballsbridge stuff.
I suggested here on the last occasion that you pay more attention to the G.A.A. I mentioned that you should get the captain, the vice-captain or some playing member in the old All-Ireland finals to broadcast. You could give 20 minutes to a hurling broadcast and 20 minutes to a football broadcast. You could go back for 45 years and get men capable of speaking on those games. You would have Christian Brothers and former national school boys broadcasting then and you would have real Irish accents. These old sports will not be boasters; "they shouldered their crutches and showed how fields were won." You would have a variety of accents amongst the winners of the All-Ireland championships. Speaking from memory, you would have 20 or 25 counties represented in connection with hurling and football. The script could be arranged under the aegis of each county committee. Let the county committees select their men. I know many of those old men who are living in my native county and it would be very interesting to listen to them.
You certainly owe a duty to the G.A.A. above any other organisation. I did some Press work in my younger days when I was foolish. I remember coming across an essay by Kickham in which he said that the games were killed in Kilkenny or Tipperary in the 40's by the British Government. You had no G.A.A. in '98 or '48 or '67 but you had in 1916. It was around the Gaelic club in each parish that the movement was built which led to our being here. I see good in every game —from ping pong to hurling. I like to see games played, but we have a national game which should get more prominence. It was the G.A.A., as I remarked, who put us here. In the late 40's, or in the 50's, when a crowd of young men collected to play one parish against another, or for one side of the road to play the other side, Mr. Justice Shallow, according to Kickham, used arrive with a party of "peelers" at his heels. He would declare the assembly illegal and then read the Riot Act.
About a week later, the bailiffs and rent-warners went around telling the families of the hurlers who were tenants-at-will to keep their boys at, home or their rents would be "riz". Of course, they stayed at home and that killed the games. The landlords were good judges. Highgates was then high treason and the "clout" of a hurling ball endangered Queen Victoria's crown. Thousands of listeners would love to hear the story of those old finals and the views of the men who took part in them. We have two such men here. We have Deputy Spring, who was captain of the Kerry team, and we have Deputy Donnellan, who took an All-Ireland cup across the Shannon. There is a certain gentleman in the House and I should like to hear him talk about his finals. He is closely associated with broadcasting. I think that he has four All-Ireland medals. That is our director of broadcasting. I saw him play in those finals.
Would the Deputy get away from the history of the G.A.A.?
I am only relating it to broadcasting.
We have been listening to the history of the G.A.A. for ten minutes.
Would not an hour's history be appropriate under present conditions? Are we not here as a result of the G.A.A.? Do you suggest that any other games——
The Chair suggests nothing to the Deputy but that he might discuss the Estimate. If the Deputy is entitled to discuss the G.A.A., other Deputies are entitled to discuss other games.
I am not thinking of other games. We are here because of the G.A.A. and we should pay more attention to the G.A.A. in our broadcasting. We should like to hear more of Seán O Ceallacháin. Numbers of people wait in country houses on Sunday night to hear the results. He is very good but he does not get time enough. I suggest that he should get more time. Our All-Ireland finals, as described by Michael O'Hehir, are world-famous, and I say he is the best broadcaster in the world. Many will come close to him but that is accepted in England. Plenty of our old Gaels will open the eyes of listeners if you do what I suggest and arrange for these talks on former finals. These men were the means of bringing us into this House.
On behalf of the staff of Radio Éireann, I should like to say that the appreciation of their efforts which has been shown is very gratifying and I am sure it will be very encouraging to them in the future. They do not claim to have reached perfection, by any means, but their efforts to improve the station are very much appreciated. I am sorry that Deputy Mulcahy found that the voices on Radio Éireann were not satisfactory. It is extremely difficult to get good voices. Hundreds of people have been examined as announcers from time to time. Unfortunately, the microphone magnifies every defect in the voice and that applies also to singing. I suppose we shall never get a voice that some people will not dislike and criticise. What we have chiefly to aim at is clarity. Possibly, some of our announcers, in their attempt to be as clear as possible, use an accent which has not sufficient of the blás to please some Deputies.
Deputy Anthony raised the question of the engineering staff in Cork. The position is that the work done in Cork is not up to the same standard of difficulty as that in either Athlone or Dublin. Pay is given according to the skill required. For the present, at all events, I cannot hold out any promise that we can do more for Cork than we are doing. We have been trying to give as many broadcasts as possible from all over the country, because our policy is to decentralise. So far as pay is concerned, it will be determined by the standard.
Deputy Cogan mentioned that the radio does not have as much influence as people possibly think it should have. Of course, households vary. I know perfectly well that in some households people dislike the radio, or perhaps their children are engaged in other pursuits. On the whole, however, I think the permeating influence of the radio is very widespread. It has not, perhaps, got the same capacity for impressing people as the pictures. There is no doubt that the visual things make more of an impression than things that are merely audible. At the same time, I think it has a very continuous and permeating influence and often, if there are good talks put out on the radio, people discuss them afterwards and the ideas spread. As a means of effecting the raising of standards of culture and putting our standards before the outside world, I consider it is of enormous importance.
We give a good deal of drama. Deputy Cogan said we ought to give more drama. I believe we give quite a considerable amount of drama. One thing about drama is that it requires a great deal of organisation. Good drama is, perhaps, one of the most expensive items on the radio and it takes a considerable time to organise. It means nearly the whole evening goes with drama, so that I do not know that we could properly balance up our programme if we gave any more drama than we do give. We try to balance things so as to give sufficient to suit everybody. We give a considerable amount of songs and a certain amount of orchestral work and a certain number of other items. We try to balance them one against the other. It is only by watching things and correcting and revising, that the station can arrive at a better balance.
Ae regards humour, there were certain criticisms made that we have not much humour on the radio. It is the hardest thing in the world to be funny, especially on the radio, because you have not the visual assistance. We had a special example of that in the case of the Irish pantomime, which was such an enormous success and so very funny, but when we tried to deal with it as something to which you could only listen, it became almost impossible. It was really difficult to put it on the radio. Being funny on the radio is the hardest thing of all. Occasionally we have succeeded, but I hope we do not succeed in being funny without being aware of it; I hope we will never be unintentionally funny.
The question of controversy on the radio was raised. It would be a very good thing if we could put on controversial topics, but it is hard to do that without giving cause for criticism. Usually the Minister gets lambasted for doing it. We proceed on the lines of exercising prudence in that matter. If a way could be found to put on a good controversy without having subsequent criticism of that type, it would be a very good thing.
Deputy O'Sullivan said that the main criticism of the radio was that we were not spending enough money. We will be spending considerably more. The whole question of the short-wave station is involved. We shall have to increase our staff and probably I shall have another Estimate to submit to the House as soon as we have our plans properly laid.
Reference was made by several Deputies to sponsored programmes. One could see from the discussion to-night that the House was divided on our policy, so perhaps we are justified in taking a middle course. I agree with Deputy Hughes that we must have regard to the standard. A certain national standard must be observed. We do not want to be classed with stations like Luxembourg and other stations where it is a matter of sheer advertisement from beginning to end. It is only fair that we should give an opportunity to Irish producers to advertise.
We are very limited in our methods of advertising, because we have very strict rules. We do not want to interfere with the normal advertising business of the newspapers. We do not advertise small things or advertisements of the kind the newspapers go in for—a lot of patent medicines, and so on. We advertise only Irish products. The companies must be 51 per cent. Irish before we allow their advertisements on the radio. The hours also are limited. Reference was made to the increase of advertisements and it was suggested that that might mean people coming along at hours outside the hours we stipulated. In the evening when it is most normal for people to listen-in we do not allow advertisements. We allow them late in the evening. Perhaps at 5.30 or 6 o'clock or during the afternoon we may allow advertisements, but we do not allow them during the hours when we have a programme which we believe the people like, during their recreation hours.
The explanation in reference to the correspondents is that they are only part-time and the amount of work is small. It was Deputy O'Sullivan who raised that point. We have tried to do the best we can with our news staff but the position is by no means as we would like it yet. It is one of the things to which we will have to pay special attention. When we come to deal with the short-wave station we shall have to consider our whole news service. We will want certain things about which I shall have to come to the House again.
Deputy Hughes put his finger on one of our weaknesses and that is agricultural talks. We are actively engaged in discussions with the Department of Agriculture so as to get first-class agricultural talks. It is extraordinary how unwilling farmers are to tell us about all the grand things they do in the country. Even the experts are not willing to talk. They prefer action to words. There is considerable difficulty in getting them to go on the radio, but we have great hopes of being able to organise things on methodical lines. We must express gratitude to the few people who have talked about their farming experiences. Their talks were well received throughout the country. We are always glad to hear criticisms because it shows that our people are interested in listening-in and anxious to get the very best we can give them.
Deputy Flanagan wanted to have an all-round the clock radio programme. I am afraid we cannot do that because it would be extremely expensive. It would mean not only electrical costs but the cost of staffs. You would require an enormous staff of people to put on a variety of material sufficient to cover the period the Deputy has suggested. Even the British Broadcasting Corporation, which spends such enormous sums, records many of its programmes and repeats them because it cannot keep creating programmes for every hour of the day. We have tried to improve the quality of our programmes within the limited hours at our disposal. Perhaps with the passing of the emergency, the increase in the number of licences and the return of better conditions we may be able to improve the situation and possibly extend the hours. I might mention that I took a special note of Deputy Corish's suggestion to have the programme on at 12.30. I think that is a good idea if it can be managed. It is only fair that we should try to cater for workers at that hour.
I forgot to mention that "old time" is kept in rural Ireland and that men on the farms go to dinner at 12.30, so that the suggestion will cut both ways.
All these things will be considered. The criticism of our programme with reference to the G.A.A. is hardly fair, because we put on provincial finals and other matches. Sometimes, unfortunately, the engagements clash and we have to make a choice. We cannot put them all on. Following a suggestion made last year we have increased the time for Seán Ó Ceallacháin. I was glad to hear the very appreciative remarks of Deputy Corish. The Deputy is taking the same interest that his father always took in Radio Éireann. I was especially glad to hear that reception in Wexford had improved. It has always been a source of concern that there are stretches of the country, due to some geographical causes, where reception is not as good as in other places. I am very glad to hear that reception is better now in Wexford. The Deputy suggested the engagement of more country artists. Under our scheme we hope to go more through the country for broadcasting purposes. There, too, we would want a special staff, as the organisation and the getting of people into form is quite a work in itself which will take some time. The tendency will be to develop more country broadcasts.
Some Deputies asked about the short-wave station. I think from the discussion that has taken place everybody appreciates the value of establishing a short-wave station in Ireland. The intention really is to reach the Irish race throughout the world. We are going to attempt to do that, and for that purpose we want to raise our standard as much as we can, to make our programme as Irish as we can while, at the same time, showing that we are drawing upon the very rich deposits of our Irish culture, our Irish language, our Irish history, our literature, our folklore and our music. We want in all these respects to indicate what Ireland has always stood for. All these things contribute to what might be called the civilisation that belongs to the smaller nations of Europe and, ranking amongst them, we must keep up our standard. Nobody will question the fact that we stand out as a distinguished nation in these matters. Perhaps we have not come out as much as we should. Owing to the conflict of history we have a lot to make up in all our shattered institutions in order to give both our own people and those in the outside world the full benefit of our heritage. The short-wave station will not be heard in Ireland, except in a few places, because the nature of short-waves is such that they go up very high, and come down very far away. For that reason the short-wave programme will be almost entirely for export purposes. I am saying that because, when we have expended money on the short-wave station, people may be disappointed when they will not be able to hear it. It will probably be heard in a few places in Ireland, but in very few, because if it is put out into the ether to reach the United States, South Africa and Australia naturally we will not hear it in this country. A considerable portion of the programme will be repeated on the medium wave but, perhaps I had better not anticipate that now, as we will have another Estimate to deal with organisation.