Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 24 May 1946

Vol. 101 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

There is very little more I can say with reference to the chief matter that was debated on the Vote, that is, the question of the teachers' strike. I do not know whether Deputies read what I said when I spoke here previously or whether they paid any attention to the comparisons I gave between the proposals in the Government offer and the scales that they were prepared to give and the 1920 scales and, furthermore, with the relative scales in the North of Ireland, for example. The Minister for Finance has reduced the income tax here. That affects the teachers as a body and the comparison, therefore, is still more appropriate because it brings home to those who had not given sufficient attention to that aspect of the matter that the gross figures give quite a wrong impression of the situation. Judging by the way the advertisements that were published by the Department of Education were criticised here, I can only feel that many of the teachers who voted for this strike realised the true position only when they saw the full picture placed before them. I think the figures that I have given, showing the relative position at present here and elsewhere, if carefully examined, should help the teachers to realise that they have made a mistake and that, in the new circumstances, they ought to reconsider their whole position. I think that if they do examine these figures it will have some effect in getting them to alter their attitude. I have stated also, with regard to certain other matters, that the Government clearly explained its position. The Department of Education is at all times available for consultation with the teachers. We do meet members of the teachers' organisation. The inspectors meet their representatives and I meet them, or the secretary meets them, where necessary, to discuss problems affecting them. I mentioned already last night that I do not believe there is an artificial barrier or any artificial restriction upon the number of teachers, for example, who can secure the rating of highly efficient if their work deserves it.

If there was such a restriction, I certainly would do everything I could to remove it, but I do not believe there was. There has never been any instruction, or any advice of any kind, given so far as I have been able to establish to inspectors to limit themselves in that way.

Deputy O'Higgins mentioned the question of teacher-graduates. It is preposterous to suggest that in a matter of this kind, where the Government's proposals would have increased the expenditure on the Primary Education Vote alone by £1,250,000, the few hundred pounds that would have meant a difference one way or the other between men and women graduates could have precipitated the strike. If that is the position, I think that any trade unionist will agree that the negotiations must have been very badly handled. If the position was that I was dealing with the teachers' organisation officially on the basis of the proposal of £1,000,000 or £1,250,000, and that later on when the Government had made its final decision we were told that this was a very important question—the fact is that it has been mentioned here, and I have been told myself also that it has been responsible for a certain agitation being created among women and women graduates in particular—then, whatever feelings one may have about the effect of university education in that particular connection, one does not feel that the matter was handled reasonably or with commonsense. There was certainly no suggestion that there was any question of serious difference or that it was a matter for serious contention between the teachers and myself, and the same applies to the other questions. The object of the teachers' organisation, obviously, was to spread whatever moneys they could get over the great bulk of their members. It takes very large sums of money to effect even appreciable improvements in that way.

I mentioned last night, with regard to the Dublin teachers, what the position was. If argument is made or if points are made about grading and so on, there is the one clear case, the outstanding point probably, the kernel of the situation so far as the teachers' strike is concerned, on which the Government deferred entirely to the official policy of the teachers' organisation.

Therefore, there is no excuse for suggesting that the Government wanted to divide the teachers. It is quite clear that if the Government had pursued its own wishes in the matter, the results might have been different. We were dealing with bodies which we thought represented the organisation as a whole and not with particular sections. When the point arrives that particular sections of the organisation are going to make claims for themselves and are, apparently, not going to be guided by their own executive or to be controlled by it, then obviously we reach a position when there is no use in continuing.

Deputy McGilligan also seemed to suggest that this question of the strike had been—he did not say planned— decided upon, and had been made clear to the Government. How could that be the position in view of the correspondence that I read last night, and in view of the fact that subsequent to that correspondence there was a congress of the National Teachers' Organisation where the question of a strike was defeated? According to an official communication of the 11th February which I received from the General Secretary of the Teachers' Organisation, the following resolution was adopted at a special congress held on February 9th:—

"That Congress rejects the Government's offer and directs the Executive to make further representations immediately to the Government with a view to improving the present offer as regards scales and date of operation, and that the official offer be submitted to a referendum of all the members of the Organisation in the Twenty-Six Counties, this referendum to be by secret ballot on the lines of the C.E.C. election."

I think I am correct in stating that that resolution was carried as against an amendment for strike action.

Mr. McMenamin

Would not the Minister agree that the strike was discussed?

Mr. Derrig

I do not know what was discussed. Unfortunately, one position may have been represented to me and an entirely different position may have been represented outside. When any person in my position is dealing with the representatives of an organisation he has to take it that they are dealing with him in a bona fide manner, that they have a responsibility to their organisation, and that what they say and what they believe will go. We know that they cannot entirely control their organisation. There was no question of a strike since the time the letter was written to me unreservedly withdrawing the threat of strike. It may be said that it was only the words in the letter that were withdrawn. If that is the position on which I was asked to negotiate, that certain words were being withdrawn but that the threat of strike was not being withdrawn, then the position is certainly very peculiar.

Mr. McMenamin

Did not the Minister read out an amendment that was defeated?

Mr. Derrig

I did not. I read the resolution. I was informed that the amendment to strike was defeated.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Was the Minister officially informed of that?

Mr. Derrig

No. It appeared in the public Press. We were led to believe that the question of a strike was dead. I do not know what happened afterwards. I think that Deputies who will take the trouble to read what I have said will see that there was no suggestion that we were not approaching the point when agreement was being reached. I think that everyone concerned felt that.

Now, with regard to other matters, Deputy Mulcahy referred to the question of the primary schools. He says that the real weakness is in the primary schools. We had the usual statements that the standard of education has deteriorated, that it is not as high as it used to be, and so on. I have dealt with these matters in previous years. These may be personal opinions, or they may be personal experiences, but if we are going to judge the question of the standard of education throughout the country as a whole we must take some broader or more general principle. We have first the position that the primary schools of the country are under the control of the managers. The control of the school and the control of the teacher is vested in the manager.

I think that is a valuable safeguard, and I think that that position, described by one of our Irish Bishops as ideal or almost ideal, means that there is effective supervision both from the religious point of view as well as from the point of view of the community. Nobody has suggested that that ought to be altered. In my opinion, it is of great value for the community, provided the system is worked properly.

Then we have our teachers. Our teachers now have the advantage of having a full secondary education before they proceed to training. While educational experts will always have different opinions as to methods of training and similar questions, I think nobody will question that the standard of general education amongst the teachers who have come out of our colleges during the past 15 or 20 years is higher than it was before. We have a staff of inspectors who are thoroughly acquainted with the work of the primary schools. Most of them, as I mentioned last night, were themselves national teachers and it seems extraordinary that they should be criticised. I should imagine that nobody would understand the difficulties of teachers better than they. If there is any suspicion that they are being driven by the Office or by the chief inspector to make unreasonable demands on the teacher, then I say that that is not so. The relations between the teachers and the inspectors are laid down in the regulations. As I said last night, in case the teacher feels that he is being unjustly treated, he has a right of appeal to a body which consists of one inspector and one national teacher, with an independent chairman. I think that that is a safeguard.

If the statements made that there is a weakness in primary education be correct, it is surely inconsistent and at variance with the facts to suggest that no blame whatever can be attached to the teachers. Whatever the programme may be, it is recognised by the inspectors and the rules that the teacher can only do his or her best in the circumstances of the ordinary, rural school. The standard, generally, in the area has to be taken into account by the inspector. Furthermore, all the difficulties operating against the teacher must be taken into consideration. These matters are laid down in black and white. We all know that teachers working in country schools, where there may be only a staff of two, cannot have the same advantages as teachers in large schools, where one teacher can be allocated whole time to each class, and it would be difficult to expect them to get the same results.

With the inspection system, and the system of appeal on the teachers' side, the public have also the advantage of the primary certificate examination. It is not an elaborate examination. It is a one-day examination on the three basic subjects—Irish, English and arithmetic. I was most anxious that the teachers themselves should take over complete responsibility for that examination. That was not found possible and I had to go ahead. With the co-operation of the managers, some members of the teaching body, and the religious Orders, the results have been very satisfactory. Parents have the satisfaction of knowing that the primary certificate shows that their children's primary education has been successfully terminated.

Deputy Morrissey referred to the question of extending secondary education. While we are anxious to extend education in every way possible, attention must be paid to the outlet for students. Most students who take the secondary education course expect to proceed to the university. At the same time that Deputy Mulcahy seems to claim that we should extend secondary education facilities much more than we are doing, the universities are reducing the numbers of their students. Deputies who complain of the export of trained men must reconcile themselves to the fact that the number of openings here for men is limited, except in well-defined categories such as teaching, medicine and engineering. Even in these three cases, we have an enormous surplus. Through the work of the Christian Brothers and other Orders, students in modest circumstances have been able to get a good secondary education and to proceed, with the aid of the system of county council scholarships, to the university. Deputy Morrissey's own county is, I think, the county in which we have the largest number of secondary schools relative to population. There are 23 secondary schools in Tipperary and 2,367 pupils from that county are receiving secondary education either in the county or outside it.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Why not bring the rest of the country up, at least, to that standard?

Mr. Derrig

We are trying to do so.

The schools, which are under private management, are being extended. Many of them are chock full at present. As soon as materials are available, the authorities of the schools intend to go ahead with extensions. At the same time, a number of new schools are being opened. Most of the urban areas have both a male and female secondary school. In that connection, the figures regarding post-primary education quoted by the Deputy will bear some correction. Like other Deputies, he referred to the figure of 90 per cent. as representing those who receive no education other than that obtained in a national school. According to the figures I have been able to obtain, of those between 14 years and 16 years, some 25 per cent. receive post-primary education either at secondary or vocational schools. That would reduce the figure to 75 per cent., but it must be remembered that a number of pupils remain at the national school after the age of 14 years. Unfortunately, when the School Attendance Act came into operation and it became legally incumbent upon parents to send their children to school between the ages of six years and 14 years, many of them —whether they were those who failed to send their children to school before the Act was passed or not, I do not know—conceived the idea that, immediately the age was reached at which legal compulsion did not apply, they should remove their children from school. In spite of that, we know that post-primary classes are carried on in a number of the larger primary schools. We know that children are prepared for the intermediate examinations in certain cases, so that 20 per cent. more, according to the figures I have been able to collect, of those between 14 years and 16 years, are attending school after 14 years. How long they are attending, we do not know. We know, however, that they are over 14 years of age. So that, between the two classes, at least 45 per cent. continue to receive some schooling after the age of 14 years. There is, of course, a system of secondary scholarships.

Deputy Morrissey mentioned the question of books. I know it is a very serious question. The domain of secondary education is rather different from that of primary education. Primary education is regarded as a public system, with the Government having a substantial measure of control. In the case of secondary schools the management, as I have said, is private. If the schools receive grants they are liable to inspection. They send in pupils for examinations and we arrange for these examinations. Outside that, the secondary schools are in a different position. I take it the Deputy does not suggest that school books should be provided for all secondary school pupils?

Mr. D. Morrissey

No, but would the Minister agree with me when I say that quite a number of children of poor parents, parents who would desire that their children should continue at secondary schools, such as convent schools or Christian Brothers' schools in urban areas, are unable to go there because they are unable to afford to buy books?

Mr. Derrig

That is one of the things schools do. We have to bear in mind that the managers of secondary schools provide their schools without any assistance from the State and they contribute in various other ways. Generally, if a pupil is talented, and there are hopes that he or she may get a scholarship and go on for higher education, the school manages to give some aid. I think most of us would prefer, if aid were being given, that it should be given by way of scholarship than by way of extension of the free school books scheme.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Do not let us concentrate altogether on the geniuses. I have much more faith in the average pupil if he gets a fair chance.

Mr. Derrig

The point, in any case, is that there is a strong feeling against the system of giving school books free except where there is evidence of great necessity. As the Deputy knows, when the system is operated in the primary schools there is something in the nature of a test. I do not know what the reaction of the secondary schools would be to the introduction of such a system in their case. I fancy their natural answer would probably be: "Well, why not make further scholarships available?" or "Why not give us more money? Increase our grants and we shall try to give better facilities where possible." As I have said, the schools are increasing and are trying to increase the accommodation they are providing. It is a matter I should like to consider but I am not at all of the opinion that we lack suitable secondary school facilities as we stand. Had it not been for the hold-up in transport and building during the war, of course the number of students would have increased very much more than it has done.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to fundamental questions of education and there was some reference to a Council of Education. This matter was raised on a motion last year and I would refer Deputies to the debate on that motion. The Government is not opposed—quite the contrary, as the setting up of the commission showed—to the establishment of vocational organisation. We should like to see vocational organisation but I would suggest to those farmer Deputies who apparently think that the recommendations of the commission referred only to education or primarily to education, that education really is a field where it is comparatively simple. If one agrees that vocational organisation should be set up, the principle determining it is simple enough. There are difficulties in working out representation and so on, but what was intended surely in setting up the commission, as I think the Taoiseach made clear, was that vocational organisation should be established for agriculture and for the larger occupations. The question was to fit in vocational organisation for education with the general scheme. The Government has not had time to consider it and it is doubtful, until we get over the present transition period, if the problems that have to be dealt with now will allow us to go into the question. If we are going to fit vocational organisation for education into a general scheme of vocational organisation, we shall have to wait. That is the Government's attitude.

If it is contended that we should go ahead with it now and that there is some opposition or some reluctance on the part of the Department, that at the back of our minds we dislike and object to inquiry, that we are not prepared to give information, to consult and take advice, that is not so. I do not know if some of the Deputies who have taken upon themselves to criticise me in this matter have ever discussed the question with representative educationists outside, with those who have most authority, and asked them what their view was. The question is, even if we did establish such a council, whether it would be generally welcomed or whether there would be any real demand for it. An effort was made to set up such a council some years ago on a voluntary basis. It failed, and it was not any action of the Government that prevented its establishment. Deputies, therefore, ought to look at the history of the matter and consider what the attitude of the different interests concerned may be to it.

As regards the question of the school-leaving age, that is not a matter that need be left to a council. It is a matter upon which we here ought to come to a decision. I only regret that we have not been able to come to a decision on it before now, but I must plead in extenuation that we have a commission dealing with the question of unemployment, and that commission is dealing incidentally with, and I believe it will make a recommendation in regard to, the question of the school-leaving age. We prefer to have the recommendations of the commission before us, to know what it has to say and on what lines it thinks the problem should be approached before making our arrangements. We are doing what we can in the way of preparing teachers for vocational schools, and in the City of Dublin, the Dublin Vocational Education Committee, for example, is making preparations to go ahead as soon as possible with the extension of its schools. It will try to provide further accommodation. It has not accommodation at present for the ordinary students without reference to the burden that would be thrown upon it if the school-leaving age were raised from 14 to 16 or 14 to 15.

Even Deputies who talk about this matter admit that its application in the rural areas is not at all easy. We have a system of compulsory part-time education for pupils between 14 and 16 going on in Cork for some years. Now it has been established in Limerick and we hope to see it established in Waterford. I only regret that it has not been established also in Dublin because the trend of things elsewhere seems to be that, with the system of apprenticeship and with the advance in technical efficiency in industry, a close collaboration is required between the technical schools and the factory. Many experts in both industry and education who are interested in this problem feel that the ideal system would be that the apprentice should spend one whole day at least, or two half days per week at the technical school and the rest of the time at the factory following his apprenticeship. I have referred to the scheme in operation here under the motor traders' auspices and under Córas Iompair Eireann and the Electricity Supply Board. If we can extend these and if the trade unions—I am glad to say they have always shown a great interest in this matter of apprenticeship training—and the employers can be got to come together and to use the facilities available in the schools, as the organisations I have mentioned are using them, we ought to be able to get the best of our vocational students into industry and, at the same time, we ought to be able to provide industry with apprentices and with learners who will have received a good grounding in education that will be suitable to their future occupation and increase their efficiency.

Reference was made to the condition of rural schools. The emergency, of course, has held up building very much. We have been pressing the managers, and I should still like to press them, to do everything possible to complete the preliminaries. The manager is responsible for the erection of the school. The Government regards as fundamental in this question of school building that the parish should make an appropriate local contribution. It is true that in very necessitous circumstances we are prepared to give an extra grant; but, here again, the total amount of money available is limited. We are not prepared to give a necessitous grant in every case. We think that in the ordinary urban areas and in the better-off parishes and the better-off parts of the country where agriculture is fairly prosperous the parish ought to be able to put up a decent local contribution. The contribution that should be put up is one-third of the cost. One-third is not put up of course; very often it is one-sixth. That means that a certain number of cases have to be postponed or have to go without. The State is not prepared to accept the position in all these cases that we must take something less than the official rate of contribution. I quite understand that costs have gone up and I would like to meet managers. Where managers are energetic and want to do work, like the managers in Co. Meath to whom Deputy O'Reilly referred, and all praise to them, it is my duty to cooperate with them. It is their duty and responsibility to provide proper, sanitary schools. It is their duty to take all the preliminary steps. Our county medical officers of health have high standards. Some of them would like to see the most modern methods of sanitation and water supply. That is not always possible. But we ought to work towards the position that a water supply would be provided in every new school.

Mr. O'Donnell

There is no water in any school in rural Ireland.

Mr. Derrig

That is not so. There is water.

Mr. O'Donnell

In my county I do not know of one. It is a shame.

Mr. Derrig

When a new school is being built, or the manager of an old school makes a requisition where a water supply is available, if the county manager is prepared to bring the water to the school, and I think in the interest of public health and the amenities of the district the county manager ought to be prepared to do that, I can promise the Deputy that we will do our share. I do not think it would be fair to expect the Department in isolated areas where there is no proper water supply to place the whole cost upon the State. As I have explained, we are asking the manager to do his share, which sometimes is heavy enough. I think we ought to expect the local public health authorities, if the water is available, to do their share, and that has been done in cases that I know of. If the Deputy has particular schools in mind, I would be glad if he would let me know of them.

Mr. O'Donnell

If cleanliness in the schools is not next to godliness, we are a long way from Heaven.

Mr. Derrig

That is not meeting the point. If the Deputy has particular cases in mind, I would be glad if he would mention them to me. But, in the case of the building of a new school, we ought to make every effort to deal with that matter. I come across cases like the case Deputy Moran mentioned. The Deputy—he is not here to-day—is in a great hurry about this school in County Mayo. The case commenced in 1928. A grant for the new school was applied for in 1935. The grant has been sanctioned. Evidence of title has only just been furnished. I think that not all the delay, at any rate, is attributable to me or to my officials. There has to be correspondence in regard to these matters. The Department entrusted with the arrangements for the buildings is the Board of Works. The first thing that happens is that the manager is asked to provide a site. The Board of Works inspector has to see that site and has to be satisfied with it. The manager may know more about building than I do. Nevertheless, the advice of the trained engineers and architects of the Board of Works must be taken. When we are building schools we are building them for a generation or two, and we ought to build them on the best sites, with the best aspect, and the best facilities we can provide. The manager's contribution is the first money to be spent. He has to provide the surrounding wall and then the building goes ahead. As I have said, if managers are progressive, if they want to replace these 400 or 500 old schools which ought to be replaced without delay, they will get every assistance in the way of advice and consultation both from the officers of the Board of Works and the inspectors and other officers of the Department of Education.

I want to make it clear again that the responsibility devolves on the managers to provide the schools and it is their duty also to see that while the schools are in occupation they are properly maintained and that repairs are carried out to them.

The Minister for Finance, like most Nationalists who come from Ulster territory, is keenly interested in the revival of our national language and I am grateful to him for making sufficient monies available to bring the existing grant for Irish-speaking children in the Gaeltacht areas up to £5. The grant will be made available this year to pupils who have been receiving the £2 grant in the ordinary way; but it will take some little time before it can be made available to pupils attending vocational or other schools than national schools. The rules will have to be amended and, while we will send out word to the inspectors as soon as possible, I do not know whether we will be able to pay the £5 in the present session to pupils other than those who would receive the £2 under the existing regulations. We may take the opportunity to amend the scheme in other particulars.

The Government is interested in seeing that the language is preserved in its native home. Everything in the modern world is operating against the language and, while it may sound extraordinary that we should pay people to speak their own national language, we have to put ourselves in their position. They see that English is the language of wealth, of advancement and prosperity in the country. If they have to leave the country, they see that they have to know English. Even in the public examinations, although everything possible has been done by the Government to emphasise the importance of Irish, it would be extremely difficult for a native Irish speaker, who had not a good knowledge of English, to secure a position. All these things and the effect of transport and travel, of pictures and of the daily newspaper—which now goes into every home—are operating against Irish. Therefore, it is the Government's duty to encourage those who speak Irish as their natural and native tongue to continue to do so.

I would ask the co-operation of Deputies of all Parties in achieving that aim and in extending the use of Irish into the Breac-Ghaeltacht areas, those areas where the language has died out in our time. Those persons of middle age are, unfortunately, in the position that they have the least knowledge of the language. The older people may have some and the younger people growing up should have a good knowledge of it. If we can get the middle-aged parents in the Breac-Ghaeltacht interested in this matter and if we can make them see, as Deputy Cafferky put it, that it is an honour and a privilege to speak the language of one's country and that, if we lose it, nothing else can replace it, that they are in the fortunate position of being able to do more than most to maintain Irish, then we shall be helping to extend Irish. The grant which the Minister for Finance has made available will do its part also.

I was very glad to hear Deputy Corish and I congratulate him. I had known that he was interested in Irish and I hope that the younger Deputies who come into this House and who ultimately will replace us all, will take an interest in this matter. We do not ask them to subscribe to any narrow views or to any particular view, but we ask them to do their share, as leaders of future opinion, as men who will have important responsibilities, to see that the struggle to keep our native language alive and the struggle to extend it outwards from the schools into the public life and social life of the country will not fail. The present generation can claim that they had not the advantages. As I have said, those of middle are at the present time were possibly in the worst position of all those who have gone before us, but there is not the same excuse for the younger generation. I was very glad to hear Deputy Corish. It has given me encouragement to know that the younger men like him understand the position. If we can approach this problem through the different organisations and if we can give them any aid, we will be very glad to do so.

I think aid has already been given towards the Coisde na bPáiste scheme for sending children to the Gaeltacht areas. As the Deputy pointed out, there is no reason why we cannot establish, in the English-speaking areas, camps and schools—and summer schools, particularly—for our younger people.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the defects in the Davis film. I am sure that the film has defects—few films have not. If the particular defect to which he refers is the sound, the position is that it was determined to make this film after the Thomas Davis celebrations last year and as soon as possible. There was no sound apparatus available in this country and to bring it across here would have increased the cost of the picture by 50 per cent. Owing to the cost and the urgency of the matter, the sound had to be added in London. Therefore, I think there is a good excuse if it is not of as high a standard as the rest of the picture. According to the Press critics, it is a good picture. I have not seen it in one of the picture-houses, but I saw it before it was publicly shown and before the sound was added, and it seemed to me to be good. In any case, it is not a picture made by the Department of Education. It was made under the auspices of the Irish Film Institute and it cost less than £4,000. It is not a full-length picture.

If we are to go in for picture making, including educational films, we will have to bear in mind that they will have to bear short pictures, such as documentary films. If they are going to be shown publicly and go in with the ordinary commercial programme, they will have to be short. We forget that the number of pictures coming from Hollywood which particularly appeal to us or have some religious note or some motif that seems to agree with our own is very small indeed, and they probably would not be regarded as box office draws by any means. The Government is looking into the whole question of the film industry, but obviously to go into it on the scale that some people contemplate, as a serious competitor in the film world with the magnates of Hollywood, would take millions. At the same time, we can do a certain amount, we can make a beginning with pictures like "A Nation Once Again" and also we can go in for the 18 mm films. We can provide apparatus for having films of an instructive character shown throughout the country.

I was greatly impressed at the Spring Show by the pictures shown in the Department of Agriculture Hall, dealing with Clean Milk and Bovine Tuberculosis. There is no doubt whatever but that pictures like these, shown to farmers, will make an impression on them. It is not sufficient to tell people how things should be done. It certainly is very valuable that they should get the visual aid. I do not agree entirely that we can employ educational films generally, but there are particular matters in technical education and in agricultural education where they may be of value and the Film Institute is building up a library for schools in that way. In the same way, I hope libraries of instructional films in agricultural and industrial matters will also be procured.

Mr. Larkin (Junr.)

May I ask the indulgence of the House with regard to a point of personal correction? Last night I used the figure of 59,000 as representing the number of children absent from school. In his reply the Minister referred to other figures, which showed a big discrepancy. I learned subsequently that the figure I used was incorrectly computed and this morning I was given correct figures. From these it appears that there are 16,909 children absent from 102 schools actually open, and 32,000 children absent from 124 schools closed. The total should be 49,000 and not 59,000.

Mr. McCarthy

May I ask the Minister whether he would be prepared to consider granting awards to summer colleges in the Gaeltacht or the Breac Ghealtacht areas? Take, for instance, a place like Garryvoe, County Cork. Would he consider a system of grants on the same basis as now apply to Coisde na bPaistí? I think such a procedure would be desirable in view of the great work these colleges are doing for the youth of the country.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

The Minister referred to 18 mm. film. Does he mean 16 mm. film?

Mr. Derrig

I beg the Deputy's pardon. I meant 16 mm. film. I should have mentioned that the number of pupils who were up for the primary leaving certificate last year from the schools that are now closed owing to the strike was about 2,200. The number of pupils over 14 years attending primary schools in Dublin on 30 June, 1944, was 2,814—1,152 boys and 1,662 girls. With regard to the matter raised by Deputy McCarthy, I shall look into that. I think we have been in touch with the conductors of the school at Garryvoe.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put and declared negatived.

Vote put and agreed to.