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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Aug 1946

Vol. 102 No. 12

Industrial Relations Bill, 1946—From the Seanad (Committee).

It is proposed to ask the Committee to agree with all the amendments to the Industrial Relations Bill.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—

In page 6, Section 10, sub-section (4) deleted and the following sub-section substituted:—

(4) The Minister shall, in respect of each worker's member, designate an organisation representative of trade unions of workers to nominate a person for appointment, and, in respect of each employers' member, designate a trade union of employers to nominate a person for appointment, and the Minister shall appoint the person so nominated.

The House will remember that we discussed this provision of the Industrial Relations Bill on more than one occasion. As it left the Dáil, the Bill provided that the workers' and employers' members of the proposed labour court would be appointed by the Minister on the nomination of the appropriate organisations but gave the Minister power to reject any persons nominated. Objection was taken to that provision in the Seanad and I do not think that the Dáil was very enthusiastic about it. The provision was inserted in the Bill in Committee. It will be remembered that a sub-section was added on Report which provided for an alternative method of choosing workers' members of the court in certain circumstances.

I think that if that alternative provision had been in the Bill originally this suggestion would not have been pressed. The deletion of the Ministerial power of veto is not, I think, of any serious consequence although it will mean that in certain circumstances, where appointments are made under the provisions of sub-section (4), the Minister will have no responsibility for the persons appointed. It is, I think, to be assumed that the power of veto is not one which he would ordinarily wish to exercise and if circumstances arose where he might consider it desirable to exercise that power, he could ordinarily secure the same result by consultation with the organisations concerned.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—

In page 6, Section 10, before sub-section (6), the following sub-section inserted:—

(6) The Civil Service Regulation Acts, 1924 and 1926, shall not apply to the office of chairman or ordinary member of the court.

It was suggested that, as members of the court are to be whole-time members or to be always available for the work of the court and will be remunerated out of State funds, it could be held that the Civil Service Regulation Acts applied to them, in which case the members of the court would be appointed by the Civil Service Commission. That certainly was not intended by anybody and the sub-section is inserted to make it clear that the Civil Service Regulation Acts will not apply to members of the court.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—

In page 7, Section 11, paragraph (c) deleted and the following paragraph substituted:—

(c) for the purpose of the business so assigned to it, each division shall have all the powers of the court and the chairman of the division shall have all the powers of the chairman and references in this Act to the court and the chairman shall be construed as including references to a division and the chairman of a division, respectively.

This is a drafting amendment. It makes it clear that any reference in the Bill to the court shall also be deemed a reference to a division of the court. That certainly is what the Dáil intended but it was suggested in the Seanad that the provisions in the Bill as it left the Dáil were not sufficiently clear and this drafting charge was made in order to ensure clarity.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—

In page 7, Section 15, sub-section (2), in line 52, the words "outside Dublin" deleted.

It was suggested that the clause as it stood could be read as indicating that places in Dublin could not be designated by the court for the lodgment of documents. As the retention of the words was not necessary, I agreed to their deletion in order to remove any doubt on that point.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:—

In page 9, Section 22 deleted and the following substituted:—

( ) The court shall not include in any report any information obtained by it in the course of any proceedings before it under this Act as to any trade union or as to the business carried on by any person which is not available otherwise than through evidence given at the proceedings, without the consent of the trade union or persons concerned, nor shall any member of the court or the registrar or any officer or servant of the court or any person concerned in the proceedings, without such consent, disclose any such information.

This is a drafting amendment also. It makes clear that the prohibition on the disclosure of information applies not merely to to the court but to any individual member of it or to any other person connected with the proceedings before the court.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—

Section 23. In sub-section (3), line 49, after the word "each" the word "registered" inserted, and in lines 50 and 51 the words "registered by the court under Part V of this Act" deleted.

This is a drafting amendment solely.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—

Section 25. In page 10, line 15, the words "or workers in any trade or industry" deleted, and the words "type or group" substituted therefor.

This amendment which was proposed in the Seanad is in my view an improvement on the wording of the Bill. The effect is to extend the word "class" to include types or groups of workers so that there will be no doubt that an agreement may be registered by the court for any section of workers who can be distinguished from any other section. The words "or workers in any trade or industry" which appeared in the Bill originally might be held to indicate that an agreement for a class of workers could not be registered unless the agreement related to all the workers in the trade or industry concerned. These words have accordingly been deleted and this extended definition of "class" inserted, which is an improvement. Amendments Nos. 9, 10, 15 and 18 are consequential on this amendment.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:—

Section 27. In sub-section (3) (a), line 42, after the word "respectively" the words "that it should be registered" added.

This is a drafting amendment. It was suggested that there was some ambiguity in the sub-section and the amendment makes it clear that the subject upon which the parties must agree is the registration of the employment agreement.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:—

Section 27. In sub-section (3) (b), after the word "class" in lines 44 and 47, the words "type or group" inserted in each place.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 10:—

Section 27. In sub-section (3) (d), line 52, after the word "class" the words "type or group" inserted.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 11:—

Section 28. In page 11, Section 28, sub-section (1), line 34, the words "group of" deleted.

As a result of amendment No. 7, this change also is necessary. Section 28 is intended to apply to sections of workers within a class, type or group, covered by the agreement. Accordingly, the words "group of workers" which appeared in the Bill originally are now inappropriate.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 12:—

In page 11, Section 28, sub-section (2), all words in lines 35 to 41, inclusive, deleted, and the following words substituted:—

Where an application is made under this section to vary an agreement, the following provisions shall have effect:—

(a) the court shall consider the application and shall hear all persons appearing to the court to be interested and desiring to be heard;

(b) after such consideration, the court may, as it thinks fit, refuse the application or make an order varying the agreement in such manner as it thinks proper.

This amendment remedied an oversight in the Bill as it was prepared by the Dáil. It inserts here provisions similar to those which appear in other parts of the Bill and which make it mandatory on the court to give audience to all persons who have an interest in or who desire to be heard in relation to an application to vary a registered employment agreement.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 13:—

Section 29. In sub-section (4) (a), line 3, page 12, after the word "period" the words "and notwithstanding any provision that it shall cease to have effect at the expiration of such period" inserted; and all words after the word "this" in line 5 to the end of the paragraph deleted and the word "Part" substituted instead.

This is a drafting amendment which improves the wording of the Bill as it left the Dáil. Apart from the alteration of the draft, the word "section" in line 5 was changed to "Part" as, in consequence of other changes in the Bill, an agreement may also be cancelled under Section 32 of the Bill as well as under Section 29.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 14:—

Section 29. In page 12, sub-section (4), to delete paragraph (b) and substitute the following paragraph:—

(b) the registration of an employment agreement continued in force under paragraph (a) of this sub-section may be cancelled by the court on the application of any party thereto, made after three months' notice to the court, and consented to by all parties thereto representative of workers or of employers.

The purpose of this amendment is to make it clear that the paragraph only applies when an agreement is continued under the preceding paragraph after the nominal period of registration has expired. A slight change has also been made in the procedure for application for cancellation. Any one party to the agreement may now apply for cancellation but, before the cancellation can be made by the court, all the parties on one side or the other must agree. Previously, the application for cancellation had to be made by all parties on one side or the other, which was a much more cumbersome procedure.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 15:—

Section 30. After the word "class" wherever it occurs in the section the words "type or group" inserted.

This is consequential.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 16:—

Section 30. In sub-section (1), line 17, the words "by virtue" deleted and the words "for the purposes" substituted.

This amendment remedies what might have proved to have been an important error in phraseology in the Bill as it left the Dáil. It was possible that the clause in the Bill could be interpreted to mean that a contract between a worker and an employer for better terms than those provided in a registered agreement would be negatived, and that the worker would be bound by the employment agreement. By the amendment, a contract between a worker and an employer will be amended by a registered employment agreement for the purposes of the whole section and for no other purpose. That is to say, the only contract which will be amended will be one for less favourable terms than those provided in the registered agreement. The complete section will therefore have the effect of levelling up but the section cannot possibly be interpreted now as meaning levelling down.

Agreed.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 17:—

In page 13, Section 33 deleted, and the following section substituted:—

( ) (1) The court may at any time, on the application of any person, give its decision on any question as to the interpretation of a registered employment agreement or its application to a particular person.

(2) A court of law, in determining any question arising in proceedings before it as to the interpretation of a registered employment agreement or its application to a particular person, shall have regard to any decision of the court on the said agreement referred to it in the course of the proceedings.

(3) If any question arises in proceedings before a court of law as to the interpretation of a registered employment agreement or its application to a particular person, the court of law may, if it thinks proper, refer the question to the court for its decision, and the decision of the court thereon shall be final.

The provision in the Bill which required that all matters relating to the interpretation or the application of a registered agreement would be determined finally by the labour court caused considerable discussion in the Seanad. It was even suggested there that the clause in the Bill was repugnant to the Constitution, which provides that justice shall be administered in courts of law set up by the Constitution. While I do not think that opinion was well-founded, it is considered that the functions proposed to be conferred on the labour court should be modified so as to avoid any possible legal proceedings on that ground. While I have no doubt that any court interpreting the Constitution would necessarily have to hold that Article 37 of the Constitution makes ample provision for the establishment of a court of this character, it was not necessary for the purpose of the Bill that the matter should be determined finally in the courts. It was decided, therefore, to suggest to the Seanad the modification of the section in the form now proposed in this amendment.

The effect of the amendment is to provide, first, that any person may go at any time to the labour court for an interpretation of an employment agreement. If proceedings arise in a court of law, in the course of which the interpretation of an agreement may be in question, then any person who has received an authoritative interpretation in the labour court can produce it in the court of law, which must have due regard to it in any decision arrived therein. Furthermore, if in the course of a hearing of a case before a court of law, the court should desire to obtain the opinion of the labour court on the interpretation of a registered agreement, it may refer the agreement to the labour court for interpretation and in such circumstances the decision of the labour court will be final.

These provisions cover the main part, if not all, of the objective we had in mind in the original section of the Bill. They do not eliminate completely the possibility of conflicting interpretations being placed upon registered agreements by courts of law and the labour court. The only case, however, where such a conflict of interpretation might arise would be where nobody had obtained an authoritative interpretation of an agreement from the labour court or, having obtained it, had not produced it in the court in the case in which the question of interpretation arose. Any decision of a court of law, however, which might be contrary to the interpretation which the labour court would put upon the registered agreement in question would apply in the single case only; and if it should prove likely to cause embarrassment to the workers or employers concerned, they could proceed to the labour court for the purpose of getting an authoritative interpretation, which would be available in the case of any similar proceedings arising in future in a court of law. As I have said, the amendment achieves by far the greater part of what we had in mind and avoids the Constitutional issue which was raised during the course of the Seanad discussions.

If an agreement is produced before a court of law which has been given a particular interpretation by the labour court, the court is not bound to follow it.

No, but the court is required to have due regard to that decision of the labour court in making its own decision.

Did the Minister not say that, in certain circumstances the interpretation placed upon the agreement by the labour court would be binding?

That would be the case where a court of law had of its own initiative, referred the matter to the labour court for an interpretation.

Does the Minister visualise that happening?

It might. I believe that judges in courts of law are sensible individuals and would be glad to have an authoritative opinion of the labour court on a registered employment agreement.

Does the Minister realise this danger in the amendment now introduced? A situation might arise in which the courts would give one decision as to the interpretation of a registered agreement, but those engaged in a dispute which brought about the case may have one interpretation on the employers' side and another on the workers' side. The court's decision in a particular case may have a narrowing effect on that agreement and it may not be construed in the same advantageous way is it was construed previously by the workers. The situation will then arise in which the legal court gives one interpretation and the labour court gives another. What is the remedy for a situation of that kind?

The Deputy appreciates that the question of the interpretation of a registered employment agreement can only come before the court of law if a case is taken in those courts. During the course of our discussions here, there was reference to workmen's compensation cases, wrongful dismissal cases, negligence cases and other actions in the courts, the decisions in which might turn on the interpretation of a registered employment agreement. If such a case should arise and the court of law should place upon that agreement an interpretation which the wording of the agreement might support but which was different from what the farmers of the agreement had in mind, it would undoubtedly influence the decision in the case in which the matter arose. If, however, the workers and employers concerned felt that that misinterpretation of their agreement by a court of law was likely to lead to difficulties in the regulation of the conditions of employment in accordance with the agreement, they could then go to the labour court and get an authoritative interpretation, which would not merely operate to regulate the employment of workers under the agreement but could be produced in any future proceedings in a court of law where the same question was involved.

The court of law would not necessarily be bound by that interpretation, because, under the section here, it is only obliged to "have regard" to it and is not necessarily obliged to take the decision of the labour court as its guide in arriving at its judgment. That is difficulty No. one. Take the case which might arise where you are not dealing with an organised group of employers in relation to an organised group of workers, but where you are dealing with an unorganised group of employees. If the case goes to the court and the legal court gives a decision, the effect of which is not as favourable to the workers as the agreement was previously thought to be, and if some employer, up to then bound by the generally accepted interpretation of the agreement, says: "I am not going to pay any more under that agreement, as the courts have held that the agreement was illegal; I do not propose to recognise the labour court's interpretation, but will take the legal interpretation, as it is more favourable," in a case of that kind, what is the position of the union?

The union would, presumably, go at once to the labour court for an interpretation and that interpretation would bind the employers who were parties to the agreement. They would be required to observe the conditions, as interpreted by the labour court, in their relations with their workers. Deputies will understand, however, that it is not the possibility of cases taken in a court of law being determined, because of misinterpretations of registered agreements by such courts, that was the main difficulty we had in mind. What I was anxious to avoid was placing upon parties to these agreements the obligation of framing them in legal terms which would stand up to legal interpretation. As the House knows, employment agreements of this character are expressed in simple words, which convey the obvious meaning to those who draft them and are not ordinarily drawn up as legal documents to be interpreted by lawyers. The original section was inserted in the Bill so as to avoid placing upon those making such agreements the necessity for drafting them in legal terms, so that they would continue to have the meaning which the framers of the agreements intended, even after the lawyers got loose on them.

This alternative section at least achieves the same result, since if there is any question of the interpretation of the agreement which might affect the conditions of employment or rates of pay of workers, it is to the labour court that the parties can go for an interpretation and the labour court will be concerned to interpret the agreement in a manner which the framers of the agreements intended. They would apply, therefore, somewhat different principles of interpretation from those applied by a court of law. The court of law proceeds on the basis that, no matter what the framers of the document intended, it is what they expressed in the document that really decides its significance. The labour court would proceed upon the basis of endeavouring to interpret the agreement, to give effect to what they knew to be the intentions of its framers: and, in so far as this amendment does provide for obtaining an authoritative interpretation on that principle from the labour court, I think it is adequate to avoid the possibility of labour disputes arising out of a possible misinterpretation of a registered agreement in a court of law.

Take the case of an unorganised employer. Suppose that he still declines to accept the second interpretation of an agreement by the labour court?

He cannot decline. That is the point, that once the court has interpreted the agreement the employer is bound by the court's interpretation.

But suppose the employer says that he will not pay?

Then he can be made to pay. The union can report him to the court, and the court can order the employer to pay. If he refuses to obey the court's order, then he renders himself liable to the penalties provided in the relevant section of the Bill.

Under sub-section (2) of the new section, when a dispute arises out of the interpretation of a registered agreement in a court of law and an employer goes to the court and says——

That is not the section.

Sub-section (2) of the new section provides:

"A court of law, in determining any question arising in proceedings before it as to the interpretation of a registered employment agreement or its application to a particular person, shall have regard to any decision of the court on the said agreement referred to it in the course of the proceedings."

The offence which an employer would have committed would not arise under this section. An order of the court which he would have refused to obey would be an order directing him to give to his workers the benefit of a registered agreement as interpreted by the labour court.

I am not sure that the Minister is making a wise decision in creating two authorities to interpret an agreement, one a lay court and the other a legal court. You may have conflicting opinions between the legal court and the lay court.

May I correct the Deputy? The question of the interpretation of a registered agreement cannot come before a court of law at all except an action is taken in the courts.

There will be no difficulty in taking an action in the courts. There will be dozens of lawyers willing to take an action in a case of that kind.

But it must be an action of some other kind. One for the interpretation of an agreement cannot go to the legal court.

Any lawyer will tell you that he would not have the slightest difficulty in creating a situation in which you could get a case into court. When you had got it into that court, then it would have to be sent back to the labour court for interpretation. When the agreement had been interpreted by the labour court, then it goes back to the legal court which is told "This is the labour court's interpretation of the agreement." The legal court answers, "That is very fine from your point of view but it is not the law," so that the legal court adheres to whatever decision it had given previously. The legal court gives a new interpretation of the agreement which is different from that of the labour court's interpretation. It seems to me to be highly undesirable to have two courts interpreting the one agreement with the possibility of conflict between two decisions. I think that the Minister might well have stood by the original provision in the Bill—that there should be only one authority, one court—to adjudicate on the interpretation of these agreements. I am afraid that he is only storing up trouble for himself.

It might have delayed the Bill if the matter had to be thrashed out in court.

Major de Valera

Deputy Norton seems very perturbed with regard to the possibility of a matter of this nature coming before the ordinary courts. In the first place, as the Minister has pointed out, such a matter can only come before the courts in what we may call a collateral action. The direct implementation of this Bill is provided for under the court set up under it, but there is the possibility of matters arising in a collateral action, such as the Minister has mentioned. That immediately brings up the question whether or not you are going completely to limit the rights of people, in such general actions, by the provisions of a Bill of this nature. Deputy Norton, as I say, is very much perturbed about the possibility of a court of law deciding what he calls a labour question. I should like to put to him the grave danger, from the general public point of view, of having any such court as the final authority in a matter that might affect the liberty of the subject and the rights of the people. This court, even granting it the best intentions and the most skilful operation, after all represents only two interests in the community.

There are the broad general interests of all parties in the community to be considered, and in any system that calls itself a democratic system there are certain rights of the individual and of other parties in the community to be preserved. On balance, therefore, I think it would be highly undesirable to tie up the courts of law, even if the Constitution permitted it, by a provision of this nature. In answer to Deputy Norton, you have actually a conflict between two desiderata, so to speak. From the point of view of this Bill, you want, if possible, to have no conflict, and then there is the point of view of the community as a whole. There are certain rights of the individual and of other groups, that can only be safeguarded by the courts having regard to the law as applicable to the community as a whole.

In a situation like that, I would suggest to Deputy Norton that it would be too dangerous, seeing that we value those rights so highly, if we were to tie them up in the way that they were tied up in the first draft of this section of the Bill. When all is said and done, we are going to be thrown back on the common sense and the good judgment of both the labour court and the courts of law. In the last analysis, therefore, no matter how we balance the Bill, it is going to be simply a matter of the good judgment of these courts. I suggest to the Deputy that, in view of the very satisfactory rulings of our courts to date in such matters and the high degree of responsibility shown by them, the section can be very well left as it is, and that there is no need to anticipate any serious conflict. I, personally, would like to express the view that the section in its new form is infinitely preferable to the section in its original form, and, therefore, I would urge on the House to accept it.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 18:—

Section 35. In line 24, page 14, after the word "class" the words "type or group" inserted.

This is consequential on amendment No. 7.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 19:—

Section 37. In page 14, line 49, after the word "workers" the words "or any of them" inserted.

This amendment makes it clear that a joint labour committee may be established if the rates of wages or conditions of employment of some of the workers for whom the committee will operate are unsatisfactory, even if the balance of the workers enjoy satisfactory conditions. As sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph (b) of Section 37 was originally framed, it might be interpreted as having the effect of preventing the establishment of a joint labour committee for any class of workers unless all the workers concerned were working under unsatisfactory conditions.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 20:—

In page 21, Section 57 deleted, and the following section substituted:—

( ) (1) The court may at any time, on the application of any person, give its decision on the question whether a particular joint labour committee operates as respects a particular person or whether a particular employment regulation order applies to a particular person.

(2) A court of law, in determining any question arising in proceedings before it whether a particular joint labour committee operates as respects a particular person or whether a particular employment regulation order applies to a particular person, shall have regard to any decision of the court referred to it in the course of the proceedings.

(3) If any question arises in proceedings before a court of law whether a particular joint labour committee operates as respects a particular person or whether a particular employment regulation order applies to a particular person, the court of law may, if it thinks proper, refer the question to the court for its decision, and the decision of the court thereon shall be final.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 21:—

Section 59. In sub-paragraph (a), line 16, page 22, after the word "class" the words "type or group" inserted, and all words after the word "employers" in that line to the end of the sub-paragraph deleted.

This is a drafting amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 22:—

Section 72. In paragraph (a), line 42, the word "six" deleted and the word "three" substituted.

The Dáil will remember that I undertook to ask the Seanad to make this change in the Bill. It has the effect of reducing the refrigeration by the court, following a court warning on an unofficial strike, from six months to three months.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 23:—

Section 72. In paragraph (b), lines 44 and 45, the words "during the said period, employs or agrees to employ" deleted, and the following words: "otherwise than with the consent of the court, employs or agrees to employ, during the said period," substituted.

I also undertook to ask the Seanad to make this change in the Bill which permits of the court varying its award during the three months' period.

But it does not prevent an employer paying a higher rate once the court agrees?

He must get the court's approval.

He can do it once the court approves.

Yes, once the court approves.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 24:—

Before Section 75 a new section as follows inserted:—

This Part does not apply to workers whose remuneration is fixed by a Minister of State under any enactment for the time being in force.

As the Bill was introduced originally, it did not give the court power to increase the rates in any circumstances with legal effect except on an order made on the recommendation of a joint labour committee. Part VII of the Bill, which contains the transitory provisions, provided merely for the registration of standard rates Orders and made the rates prescribed in a standard rates Order legally enforceable. It was quite clear that there could be classes of workers for whom there was no standard rate Order and to whom that section would not apply and the Dáil sought to remedy that position by giving this court power to fix a rate for any class of workers for whom no standard rate Order was in existence. It was not appreciated that that power of the court might at some stage produce a conflict between the order of the court and another enactment. There are certain other Acts under which various organisations have been set up and which give the Minister power to fix the rates of remuneration of the staffs of these organisations. It would be an impossible position for any such organisation if two different rates were fixed under statute and were to become legally enforceable.

What class of workers has the Minister in mind?

The employees of local authorities.

No, employees of local authorities do not come under the Bill. To give an illustration, in the case of the Milk Board the Act required the Minister for Agriculture to fix the rates of remuneration for their staff. In the case of other Acts, power is given to the organisation with the approval of the Minister or subject to consultation with the Minister to fix rates of remuneration. There are some Acts which give the Minister the obligation of actually fixing the rates to be paid. We could not possibly risk a situation in which an organisation might have conflicting legal obligations. The matter did not arise originally because the Bill did not give the labour court this power. As it is now given to the labour court, we must have this safeguard to cover the case of workers whose rates are fixed under other enactments. That is the purpose of the amendment.

The amendment says that this Part of the Bill does not apply to workers whose remuneration is fixed by a Minister under any enactments for the time being in force. There are various Acts and there are definite practices whereby the local authority or the employing body proper fixes the remuneration without being obliged to get the Minister's concurrence.

Such cases do not come under this amendment.

It is only where the Minister has a statutory obligation to fix the rates of remuneration?

Yes, and the authority concerned must observe the rate fixed by the Minister.

This applies only where the onus is on the Minister statutorily to fix the rates of remuneration?

Mr. Morrissey

Will it affect a case where the Minister does fix the rates of remuneration?

It applies only where the Minister fixes the rates of remuneration under any enactment in force.

Mr. Morrissey

But he has in fact, certainly during the emergency, been actually fixing rates of wages for local authorities. Whether he had statutory authority for doing that I do not know.

Employees of local authorities do not come under this Part of the Bill.

Mr. Morrissey

I am taking the words of the proposed new section and I say that the Minister has the right to fix the wages of employees of local authorities and that he is actually insisting on doing so.

That is not the legal position.

Mr. Morrissey

I am very glad to hear the Minister say that is not the legal position.

Employees of local authorities do not come under this Bill.

Mr. Morrissey

I am talking of the interpretation of the proposed new section.

Section 4 excludes employees of local authorities from the Bill.

Mr. Morrissey

But the proposed new section says: "This Part does not apply to workers whose remuneration is fixed by a Minister of State under any enactment for the time being in force." I know that the Minister for Local Government, in practice and in fact, fixes the rate for employees of local authorities. Let me give the Minister a case where the Minister for Local Government has that authority. This is a matter I want to make clear. A county council proposes to increase the wages of its employees by 6/- per week. That proposition goes up to the Minister for Local Government and he refuses to agree to it but he fixes a rate allowing for an increase of 4/- per week. He is, therefore, in fact, fixing their rates of wages. That has happened over and over again.

Local authority employees do not come under the Bill in any event. The process to which the Deputy referred is one of approval, not of fixation.

Therefore the Minister is just chancing his arm?

Mr. Morrissey

It is not merely approval. When the Minister says that it is a process of approval, he suggests that the authority of the Minister for Local Government is limited to approving or disapproving of the proposal of the local authority, but what happens in actual fact is that the local authority and the manager agree to give an increase of 6/- a week to the employees of that local authority. That proposal is then sent up to the Minister for Local Government and he refuses to sanction it, but he notifies them that he is prepared to sanction an increase of 4/- per week. He then would be fixing the rate of wages himself.

Will the Deputy state how local authority employees come under the Bill? I have to be guided by the Minister's statement that this amendment does not apply to the employees of local authorities.

Mr. Morrissey

I might argue that another type of worker of whom the Minister has given us an illustration does not come under the Bill.

He does.

These increases have always been subject to the sanction of the Minister.

Mr. Morrissey

That is not the point I am arguing. I am not questioning that, but Deputy Walsh knows as well as I do that very often when he, as a member of a local authority, agrees to increase the wages of the employees of that local authority by 6/- per week, the Minister refuses to sanction 6/- but states that he is prepared to sanction 4/- per week.

Mr. Walsh

That has been the law for many years.

Mr. Morrissey

It is not the law.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 25:—

Section 77. In sub-section (1), page 26, line 51, before the word "orders" the word "said" inserted.

This is a drafting amendment which brings the wording of the clause into conformity with the wording used in other clauses of the section.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following two amendments:—

26. In page 28, Section 79, a new sub-section as follows added to the section:—

(2) The court, if satisfied, on the complaint of any person, that the recording of a wages (standard rate) order and bonus order was obtained on the application of a trade union or body which did not represent the majority of the workers to whom the said orders relate, may cancel the recording.

27. In page 28, Section 80 deleted.

These two amendments go together. They are drafting amendments. They do not effect any change in the provisions of the Bill. They merely have the effect of bringing into one section two separate sub-sections dealing with the cancellation of the recording of wages orders.

Is not amendment No. 26 a copy of Section 80?

Yes, there are two sections involved and we are putting one of these sections as a sub-section into the other section.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Dáil agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 28:—

In page 28, Section 82 deleted, and the following section substituted:—

( ) (1) The court may at any time, on the application of any person, give its decision on any question as to the interpretation of a wages (standard rate) order and bonus order or their application to a particular person.

(2) A court of law, in determining any question arising in proceedings before it as to the interpretation of a wages (standard rate) order and bonus order or their application to a particular person shall have regard to any decision of the court on the said orders referred to it in the course of the proceedings.

(3) If any question arises in proceedings before a court of law as to the interpretation of a wages (standard rate) order and bonus order or their application to a particular person, the court of law may, if it thinks proper, refer the question to the court for its decision, and the decision of the court thereon shall be final.

This amendment is similar to amendment No. 17.

Question put and agreed to.
Amendments reported and agreed to, the Seanad to be informed accordingly.
The Dáil adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 23rd October, at 3 p.m.
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