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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 14 Feb 1947

Vol. 104 No. 8

Private Deputies' Business. - Retired Teachers' Pensions—Motion (Resumed).

On several occasions I have raised the question of the inadequate pensions of teachers, especially of those who retired pre-1938. With other members from every section of the House I have appealed to the Minister to grant them an increase to meet the rapid rise in the cost of living. I know several teachers who have retired under the age limit, and I am aware that their commitments in respect of house purchase and the education of their children had not been discharged by the time they reached 65 years of age. The Minister last night reviewed the position. He inferred that at 65 a teacher should have his family reared and placed and should almost have something on reserve. I made a casual interjection. I asked what salary had such a teacher 30 years ago. At that time the teacher would have been educating and rearing his children. I asked the Minister what he thinks such a teacher could have saved so that at the age of 65 he could have something on reserve to eke out his small pension.

I will try to make it clear that on the salary such a teacher was paid, either by the previous Government, by the British Government or by this Government, he could have nothing on reserve when he reached the age of 65. I put it to the Minister that to-day they are finding great difficulty in meeting the cost of living and it appears to all of us terribly unfair that that should be the position of men who gave of their very best in the troubled period. In fact, it has been stated that it was the teachers who were responsible for bringing about the change that took place following 1916, that it was the dissatisfied teachers of the pre-1916 period that encouraged the revolt amongst our people, and that the teachers, to a large extent, are responsible for the setting up of an Irish Government.

I remember some 30 years ago bringing a teachers' deputation to the Minister for Education in Westminister and I say that the attitude towards such deputations appeared to be more sympathetic than the attitude of the Government to-day. At the time when female teachers had the magnificent salary of £40 a year, I went on a deputation to the Minister for Education in Great Britain with Sir Edward Carson, John Redmond and Joe Devlin, and made a case for an increase. Little did I think that, when our own Government would be set up and we had control of our own affairs, we would meet in a Chamber, as we are now meeting, with the Prime-Minister of the country, a teacher, with the bronze statue of Pádraig Pearse looking down on us, appealing that retired teachers should not have to bear the hardships that are now imposed on them.

The Minister's excuse for not dealing with the case of teachers is that, if we deal with the teachers, we will have to deal with all other State pensioners who may think they have a claim. No one in this House will dispute the fact that there is a case for all those others, such as postmen and civil servants, who retired on very small pensions. We are standing by them also and are appealing to the Government to see that all those who are on fixed State benefits of any kind should get an increase to meet the increased cost of living. They should at least be put in a position to purchase the same quality and quantity of food and clothing that their pre-war pensions purchased for them. We are well aware that their pensions are not worth half their purchasing value at the time they were fixed. Members of the Government Party support this appeal and would give a sigh of relief if it were granted. I know some of them have privately pleaded with the authorities that reasonable pensions should be paid and that the discontent that is growing every day should come to an end.

I think the Government ought to be generous in this matter. The Minister made the casual remark that it would cost £1,000,000 to give 2/6 a week extra to the old age pensioners. One is tempted to ask him why did the Government give back the excess profits tax to the extent of £4,000,000? Why did they not hold it for a little longer, for, perhaps, a year or two, and give it to the pensioners or in unemployment benefits or to the widows and orphans or generally to those in receipt of small allowances? It is deplorable to see an ex-teacher who has given 30 or 40 years' service going through the city wearing a well-brushed, shiny suit of clothes, worn practically threadbare, trying to uphold his dignity, trying to look the part that he was once a teacher.

I join in the appeal made by other Deputies to the Government to see that the teachers and all other pensioners and people drawing small allowances and small benefits are better treated. I think the time has come when the Government should be generous to those unfortunate people; they should make an Order increasing their pensions and allowances.

This debate must conclude at 12 o'clock. There are at least three Deputies who desire to participate. Any Deputy who does speak might bear in mind that there are others anxious to take part in the debate. The mover of the motion, Deputy M. O'Sullivan, must get at least a quarter of an hour. There is still half an hour left and I would like Deputies to bear that point in mind.

I wish to support this motion and in doing so I want to stress the need of the pensioned teachers on the lower scales. If, as Deputy Byrne said, the Minister has made the case that teachers at the retiring age should have met all their commitments, I would like to impress upon the Minister that pension is deferred pay and that teachers, throughout their years of service, have contributed a percentage of their pay towards a pension. In essence, what they have earned by way of pension is in the nature of deferred pay. Therefore, it is idle to say that in this motion we are endeavouring to upset a contract as between the teacher and the State and that every time there is a rise in the cost of living the pension must be reviewed. The pension is virtually in the same position as the question of pay.

However that may be, I would like to impress upon the Minister that most teachers who have families have very heavy commitments. They generally make an effort to educate their children for the teaching or for other professions and, generally, they spend a great deal of their money educating their children for various professions.

In fact, throughout their active lives they probably use most of their capital resources in providing for the education of their families and in that way many teachers find themselves, at the time when they should look forward to a period of ease, in dire distress. They probably have to retire before their children, in their various professions, have begun to give any monetary return for whatever has been spent on them. I would like to impress that aspect of the matter upon the Minister. Many of the children go for the Church and perhaps they will never give a monetary return to their parents, so it is idle to argue that these people in their old age have no commitments. If anything, they have left themselves in a very serious financial position by reason of the sacrifices they made whilst they were in a position to make them.

I want, in particular, to direct the Minister's attention to the case of teachers who went out in the inter-regnum before the higher scales of salaries obtained. There are many teachers in my constituency who went out under the old British scale of salaries and never had the benefit of the new scales while in office and, therefore, never had the benefit of the higher pensions. Many of these men are in dire want to-day. Many of them are in receipt of pensions of something like £1 to 30/- a week. Does the Minister really think that any teacher, perhaps an old man left alone without any family, or an old man left with his wife, with his children gone away, and, perhaps, not in a position to contribute to the family needs, can carry on in present circumstances on a miserable pittance of £1 or 30/- a week?

I can give instances in my own and in the Minister's constituency of old teachers, old Volunteers, who are struggling to live on £1 a week. That £1 a week debars them from claiming the old age pension. Many of these men are scholarly men and it is a terrible thing to see them living in circumstances of dire poverty, unable to meet the daily bread bill. It is a sad ending for them. Some of these men gave sterling national service in the Volunteers and Sinn Féin organisations; they were prepared in their day to sacrifice everything for the cause. Now they find themselves in a pitiable position. I can produce many letters from such people, but I do not want to go into detail or mention of specific cases.

There are in the Minister's constituency many of these men who are not living, but who are simply awaiting death on the miserable pensions which this State allows them. I can give him instances where men served 42 years and more and they are to-day receiving the miserable pittance of £1 or 30/- a week. I could instance the cases of men who served 15 years in a British Army school and they are getting three or four times the amount of pension those ex-teachers have.

I hope the Minister will make some effort to examine the cases of people who are below the £2 level. Whatever may be said on the general issue, I believe the House would approve the Minister examining specifically the cases of those below the £2 level. In 99 per cent. of these cases the individuals are not living, but are merely awaiting death in the most miserable circumstances. I rose particularly to make a case for those men and women and I ask the Minister, if it is at all possible, to make an exception of these people and endeavour to relieve them in their dire necessity.

I would like to make an appeal on behalf of a section of the pensioned teachers who, to my mind, have been very unjustly and callously treated by the Government. I refer to the lady teachers compelled to retire at the age of 60 years. A great many of them have not had service sufficient to warrant their getting the full pension. In the circumstances, I think the Government should have added some years to their service to qualify them for the full pension.

There is a considerable number of those teachers. The difference between their present pensions and what they would get normally would not amount to a very big sum. That money is being held each year by the Treasury and I think, in common justice, there should be a refund made to those teachers. They were obliged to retire at the age of 60 years, five years before they were able, as it were, to balance their budgets and make arrangements for their families. They were not only cut off from their salaries for five years, but they labour under the injustice that they are not getting full pension.

Many of those teachers have spent the best years of their lives trying to teach the Irish language. They spent many days, weeks and months trying to fit themselves for the onerous duty entrusted to them of teaching the Irish language. They went to considerable expense in doing so. They obtained their bilingual certificates and had highly efficient service, but still, at the age of 60 years, before they were prepared to go out, they had to retire in order to make room for others. I make a special appeal to the Government to take the cases of those teachers into consideration. They have been very badly treated and I hope something will be done to improve their pensions and to refund to them at least some of the money that has been so unjustly taken from them.

Samlaítear dom nach ceart dom suí anseo agus an díospóireacht ar an rún seo a ligint thart, gan rud éigin a rá mar gheall air. Is é mo thuairim, pé deireadh a cuirfear leis an rún, go mba cheart dom, do gach éinne go bhfuil eolas cruinn aige ar an scéal seo, bunús an rúin a mholadh don Aire, don Teach agus don Rialtas.

Go deimhin, tá fhios ag gach Teachta Dála an sár-obair a dhein na sean-mhúinteoirí ar son na tíre, na teangan agus an chultúra. Is oth liom a rá go bhfuil siad ag maireachtaint anois fé phinsiúiní bheaga agus go mba cheart dúinn an tslí bheatha atá acu fé láthair a árdú go hoiriúnach.

I speak on this question not from any Pilatical complex but from absolute conviction. It is sometimes, no doubt, rather embarrassing in a situation like this, when the Minister has already declared his intentions, for a Deputy on these benches to decide whether he should express his views or maintain a discreet and uneasy silence. In this instance I have decided to express my convictions on the motion before the House. This is a very important question. The mover of the motion has stated that there is a special case for the teachers. There can be no doubt whatever but that that can be established. As a Deputy on these benches, I am not prepared to accept the suggestion that if the pensioned teachers' claims are conceded, the bottom is going to fall out of the Exchequer purse. Let us go back to the work these teachers did at a time when they had four pay days in the year, that is when they had quarterly salaries, the work that they did for this nation when there was, as has been said here, very little secondary education and very little transport to bring the rural community to the centres where such education was available. Let us come from that time of their miserable salaries and their four payments in the year to the time of national resurgence, at the start of the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Gaelic League, when they established branches here and there throughout the country and when they worked, not only after school hours by day, but again by night to revive our ancient language and to inspire the rising generation with a sense of their duties to their native land. It was said once that the famine and the national schools were partly the cause of losing the Irish language. All I can say, with reference to the teachers with whom we are dealing now, is that to their efforts in the early days of the Gaelic revival more than to those of any other section of the community, is due the fact that the Irish language holds the position that it does to-day. They laid the foundations for whatever work has been done in that regard. We all know that at their own expense and often at great personal inconvenience, even though they were only a couple of chapters ahead of their pupils, they came after a hard day's work to teach the national language at various centres. In every other national movement they took a creditable part.

Apart from that, if we consider the position that they had built up from the penurious salaries they were getting, we must agree that they are entitled to special consideration. In 1934, the Government took over £2,400,000 odd from a fund that was there to provide pensions for the teachers. Of that fund, £1,535,000 was money they had themselves subscribed. They had subscribed a surplus of £250,000 to their portion of the fund. From that fund, as the Minister has admitted, there is an investment income of £83,000 a year. That does not apply to any other branch of service, Government or otherwise. With that £83,000 we could give 20 per cent. of an increase to the pensioned teachers. Why not do it? Can any case be made why it should not be done? I do not see any.

Deputy Ua Donnchadha raised the point that some money was saved to the Government during the strike. A sum of £165,000 approximately was saved and even though mention has been made of a small portion of that that has been paid out, I say now deliberately, while I take a very poor view of that payment—I do not want to drag any other controversy into the case I am making for the pensioned teachers—that that saving of £165,000 would provide these increases for two years in full without any charge to the Exchequer.

I have a document here to which the name of my old teacher is appended. Since that document was written, he has passed to his eternal reward. When I was only 16 years of age he asked me to become secretary of the Gaelic League and of the Feis in the parish—a branch of the Gaelic League he himself had established. He was only one of many like him who did their utmost to propagate the language. They are passing from us rapidly; soon they will be gone. Let us at least pay some tribute to the service of those of them who are left other than mere flamboyant words.

We have some very plausible arguments put up to us from all sides of the House, but in 1922, shortly after our own Government was established, the first thing that happened in the case of the teachers was a withdrawal of fees for teaching Irish as an extra subject. That was the first gesture towards the teachers and their work.

In 1923 there was a 10 per cent. cut in salaries, bonuses, capitation grants, fees for mathematics and for teaching monitors and pupil teachers. That was a good start. Let it be understood that every cut in salary meant a cut in pension. In 1926 there was another withdrawal of grants to teachers for teaching monitors and pupil teachers, and in 1929 there was a total withdrawal of fees for the teaching of rural science. Now we hear that rural science is not being taught in these schools. Why should it, when the grants were withdrawn in 1929 by the Government then in power? In 1933 there was a cut from 1 to 8 per cent. in salaries and in 1934 there was a further deduction from 6 to 9 per cent. in salaries. In 1938 there was a restoration of 10 per cent.

That is the treatment which the teachers have got under a native Government. I do not wish to draw comparisons with what has occurred elsewhere, and the treatment which teachers have received there. The burden on the public purse is always an excuse for not doing things. When, however, there is a war of destruction on, plenty of money can be got and there is no question about getting it, but when it comes to economic construction, then we have no money for anything. We have no money to build up, but we have plenty of it to destroy. That is the cry of the world. While it may be considered financial heresy from the official point of view to say this, I hold that, as long as we are attached to the £ sterling, the man doing work here, whether it be picking potatoes, working on the roads, or teaching in a school, is entitled to the same monetary recompense as the man teaching in another country where the same monetary system obtains. I thought that I might have got some enlightenment or some ideas on that from Deputy Flanagan, but since he has not enlightened me, I shall have to persist in my heresy.

It is certain that a special case can be made for the teachers because of the fact that the fund, which was built up by the teachers themselves and which had a surplus of £250,000, was taken over by the Government. The Minister, instead of turning down the motion, should go into that aspect of the case and reconsider it—the special case that is made for the teachers by reason of that fund. I agree that the whole case for exceptional treatment rests on that particular fact. Therefore, I think the Minister ought to go into that and see whether a special case can be established to his satisfaction as it has, I am sure, been established to the satisfaction of the House.

I know, of course, that if a division is challenged on the motion that, under the Party system of government, I will have to go into the lobby against my own convictions. As a Deputy I often feel like one pulling against the current. It is so overwhelming that one has to go back and take another approach to his objective. That is the Party system. I suppose that any other system would not work here. Irrespective of what I may have to do on the matter subsequently, I think that in tribute to the men who taught me and taught the members of this House, in tribute to their work for the nation and in appreciation of the high duties they performed on the miserable salaries, this occasion ought not to be allowed to pass without making a special appeal to the Minister for Education. I know that he would be sympathetic but that, like me, he is being overwhelmed by the Party system, and by all the other things that might happen if we were to do this. Despite all that, I think a special case can be established for these men on the documents which are in the possession of the Government and of the Minister's Department.

I make a last appeal to the Minister to consider the case of those men and the circumstances under which they live. It has been said that they should have their families reared, but with four payments in the year how could they have got married early in life and settled down? They could not have done so until circumstances altered for them. Their work was carried out in many cases in damp, cold, insanitary hovels. They did their best to educate the rising generation, and one wondered "how one small head could carry all they knew". Now, in their declining years, in the evening of their lives, let it be said that this Irish Parliament is prepared to show appreciation of the work of men who, at a juncture in our history, when new life and hope were coming to the nation, took a leading part in laying the foundations for its future greatness.

I am glad that Deputy MacCarthy did not preserve the sweet silence which, I am sure, the Minister hoped he would. He has made an admirable speech in support of the motion. I agree with him that the teachers to some extent have been the playthings of Party politics. They have suffered more under the present Government than they did under the previous one. While I agree with what the Minister said yesterday, that the bill for superannuations is undoubtedly a very heavy one, and that it is his duty as Minister to examine microscopically practically every application for increases of pensions that comes before him, I still think that a special case can be made for these teachers, especially the old teachers in receipt of pensions of under £2 a week. I do not agree with the Minister that they can be regarded as being in the same category as teachers who retired during the last ten or 12 years.

It can be argued that the case of a teacher is different from that of a civil servant or of most State servants. We all know that State servants usually get a gratuity on retirement. The teacher does not. If he did, it would be of the greatest help to him during the period when, so to speak, he was transferring from the type of life that he has been leading to another life. When he retires, the teacher has to live on about half the salary he had been earning heretofore. The civil servant, as I have said, gets a gratuity on retirement, and that makes all the difference in the world between his case and that of the teacher. Therefore, the teachers' case deserves to be considered on an entirely different plane altogether.

I agree with Deputy MacCarthy that this country owes so much to the teachers that it can never show a full appreciation of it. The extraordinary transformation that has taken place in the country during the last 30 or 40 years is due almost entirely to the work of the teachers, and particularly, to the old teachers. They were foremost in the literary revival, the national revival, and in the dramatic and cultural revival. In fact, they were responsible for revolutionising the life of the country in almost every sphere. Therefore, the old teachers have deserved well of the country. It is unfortunately true that a great many of them are petering out their lives in a state of almost absolute destitution. On many previous occasions I have spoken on behalf of those in my own constituency. I know their circumstances and I know they are very badly off. Some of them are living in labourers' cottages, and many are in miserably poor circumstances. Yet the Minister tells us that he cannot reopen their cases for further investigation.

I submit that there is a moral obligation on the Minister and on the Government to do so on behalf of men who have performed such herculean work for the country. In their old age they ought to be treated fairly and decently and given suitable recompense for their invaluable work on behalf of the country. This generation owes it to them that they should be allowed to live out their lives in decent comfort. For that reason, I support most enthusiastically the motion moved by Deputies O'Sullivan and Murphy. I had a great deal more to say but, having given an undertaking to occupy no more than five minutes, I want to honour that undertaking.

I propose to close this debate on a personal note. If I had one ambition more than another since I entered public life, it was to avail of the opportunities of public life to advance the claims of aged people. Like other members of the House, I hope to be old sometime. If and when that stage is reached, I should like to feel that my circumstances should be such as would guarantee to me, at least, a measure of peace and reasonable comfort. That is the reason why I have sponsored this motion. That is why I have sponsored motions on other occasions regarding different classes of aged persons. I must confess to profound disappointment at the manner in which this most serious question has been approached by the Minister. I was innocent enough and optimistic enough to believe that, if the Minister could not see his way to concede the claims adumbrated in this motion at this stage, he would, at least, indicate to the House that the question of pensions as a whole was engaging the serious attention of the Government. I was good-humouredly twitted by one of my colleagues regarding the moderate language in which I presented my arguments in support of the motion. My colleague prophetically commented that I might have used very extreme language for all the purpose it would serve.

Again, I want to express a complete sense of disappointment at the manner in which the Minister came into the House to deal with this question. He did not attempt to controvert the specific points made in support of the motion. He made one point which was unworthy of him. He indicated that the teacher invariably held the position of leading citizen wherever he was located and that his remuneration was, at least, on the same basis as that of the local clergy. That is not the type of argument one expects on an occasion such as this. There is, perhaps, a more serious implication in what has occurred in this debate than the Minister's refusal to concede the points made on the motion. I am a comparatively new member of the House and, in view of what has taken place, I am beginning to question the utility of parliamentary procedure in so far as Private Members' time is concerned. If a motion carrying serious implications can be dealt with in the manner in which this motion has been dealt with by the Minister, one begins to question the utility of such motions.

Perhaps I may address myself, for the first time, to the rank and file of the Fianna Fáil Party. I have no particular right to address them but I want to say to them that they must bear some share of responsibility for the treatment which this motion has received. I greatly appreciate the action of those members of the Party who were good enough to stand up and support the motion. But I say that the members of that Party, as supporters of the Government of the day, are in a position of tremendous power. It would appear to me, from the experience we have had on this motion and other motions, that certain Ministers come in here, taking their tasks lightly, if not indifferently, listen to the debate, merely make a nominal contribution to it and then let the ordinary machinery of the House—a division—end the matter. I suggest to members of the rank and file of the Fianna Fáil Party who shared our views on this occasion that they should make the Minister realise in the councils of their Party that he has a duty to this House, to his Party and to the country as a whole.

The Minister's approach on this occasion was merely a series of platitudes, the recital of which must have been distinctly offensive to the persons covered by the motion. He did not attempt to controvert the contention that his administration was responsible for casting out on the roadside 630 lady teachers in 1938—the lady teachers referred to by Deputy Halliden. That was all due to his administration because, if the same precautions had been taken in the case of lady teachers as had been taken in the case of the other sex, that crisis would not have arisen. It arose through redundancy in the service. The obvious course would have been that which was adopted in the other case—to close the colleges for a year or two years. Instead, 600 teachers were thrown out of employment, deprived of their earning capacity for periods of from one year to five years and suffered a reduction of their pension. The hardship of that act has been recognised since by the withdrawal of the regulation responsible for this reduction. That, unfortunately, means nothing to the 600 teachers who are now on a lower rate of pension than that on which they would otherwise be. As some Deputies have rightly stated, the Minister seems to be playing one set of pensioners off against another. There is a case for better treatment of the old age pensioners. That case has been made and will be made again. It has already been turned down in this House. I do not know if it will fare better on the next occasion.

As one with experience of public administration in other directions, I know that, in corporations where there are heads of sections, it is expected of the chief of those sections to stand up for his staffs. The staff in this case, so far as the Minister for Education is concerned, consists of those who are out of employment as well as those who are in employment. His defence is that he is carrying out his contractual or legal obligations and that his main concern, if there are to be increases, must be with those who are in employment. The obvious inference from that statement is that the Minister is concerned with those in employment simply because they have a bargaining power because of their work.

Those who are past their years of work and who have lost that bargaining power are to be thrust aside. Is that the attitude which has been adopted in another portion of the country? That was referred to early in the debate. The same argument which has been advanced here was put forward in the Belfast House of Commons. Notwithstanding that, the Minister for Finance was subsequently able to introduce proposals substantially to improve the position of the retired teachers. Has not similar action been taken in the British House of Commons for almost all sections of pensioners, including teachers? What is wrong here? Because the amount involved seems high, is it considered good policy for one Minister to say that if he yields in one place, the Government will have to yield all round? The outstanding feature of this debate is the revelation that the greater number of 3,000 cultured people are on the fringe of want, if not on the border-line of destitution. It has been admitted on all sides of the House that they are in distress. By the Minister himself it has been admitted that some of them are in distress. Citizens, particularly citizens who have given good service, who are in distress, have, at least, the right to claim that the causes of their distress be removed.

Mr. Dillon rose.

The debate has concluded. Deputy O'Sullivan has replied.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 37.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Roddy, Martin.

Níl

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • McCann, John.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Keyes and Corish; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Ó Briain.
Motion declared lost.
Barr
Roinn